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OnBaseMachine
06-04-2006, 02:04 AM
Griffey could be most likely big name for Yanks

Griffey could be most likely big name for Yanks
Jun 5, 2006

Bobby Abreu and Pat Burrell are available, Alfonso Soriano can be had and Reggie Sanders probably can be, too. But the Yankees also have their eye on Ken Griffey Jr. and Adam Dunn, should either become available.

Gary Sheffield's potentially season-ending wrist injury sent general manager Brian Cashman to the phones looking for a corner outfielder late this past week. Big names will be tossed around, but with the Yankees' prospect stash limited, the best option could actually become Griffey.

Griffey's whopping salary ($37 million through 2009) means the Yankees wouldn't have to give up anything of note to get him. The Reds' previous ownership rejected the Yankees' bid for Griffey last year, but the Reds have a new owner, Bob Castellini, and a new GM, Wayne Krivsky, who isn't afraid to deal if they fall out of the race.

Soriano's a high-priced rent-a-player, but the Nats' request of the Mets' Lastings Milledge for Livan Hernandez indicates that temporary GM Jim Bowden is trying too hard to impress his new bosses.

The Nationals will shop Soriano, Hernandez, Jose Vidro and Jose Guillen, but competing club execs wonder if the ownership transition might hinder the process. New Nats president Stan Kasten insisted Friday they'll close before the July 31 trade deadline and noted that Bowden is consulting him about "anything major."

Because the Yankees are reluctant to trade Chien-Ming Wang or Robinson Cano, they'll have difficulty dealing with the Phillies, who seek a starting pitcher. The Yankees' prospect list is "below average at best," one GM said; one scout said the Yankees "have zip at Triple-A." Wang and Cano are their most asked-about players. One American League scout said, "I'd trade Wang before Cano."

Trade marks: Mulder, Zito, Lugo

It's possible that not only will Barry Zito hit the trade market, but Mark Mulder might, too. Chris Carpenter's recent shoulder trouble could make the Cardinals think twice about trading Mulder, but he's a free agent after the season. The Yankees have interest.

The Mets like Zito, with his connection to pitching coach Rick Peterson, and might have the youngsters to make a trade (Aaron Heilman, Brian Bannister?). However, the Mets are interested only if they first can sign Zito long-term. The Mets are eyeing Hernandez and Vidro and still are talking to the Devil Rays about Julio Lugo, a New York City product who'd fit at second base. But the D-Rays have wanted Heilman -- a no-go.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/ny-spheyman0604,0,1916840.column?coll=ny-sports-columnists

NewEraReds
06-04-2006, 02:07 AM
problem is, we wont fall out of the race. though i still would trade either one even if we are in it, especially dunn. their top pitching prospect, plus for dunn

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 02:12 AM
I would be packing Griffey's bags now. That would free up so much $ for the next few years and I trust that Wayne would spend that $ in the best way possible.

redsfaninbsg
06-04-2006, 02:15 AM
Trade Griffey before the Reds fall out of the race and you lose a lot of fans and your attendance hits rock bottom.

GOREDSGO32
06-04-2006, 02:17 AM
If we stay competitive and can trade Griffey and Milton in the process ... Castellini and Krivsky should be given Nobel prizes. To put it in perspective, both of them make 1/3 of our team salary, and without them, the Reds would be 28th out of 30 teams, ahead of the two Florida teams in salary. That's how much space we would clear.

Outshined_One
06-04-2006, 02:18 AM
I don't trust any of the NY rags whatsoever. They are always into throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks. They also hype up the Mets' and Yankees' prospects and young players to no end, no matter their talent level.

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 02:18 AM
Trade Griffey before the Reds fall out of the race and you lose a lot of fans and your attendance hits rock bottom.
Then the smart fans will remain and see that it was for the good of the franchise.

KronoRed
06-04-2006, 02:18 AM
They don't have enough for Dunn, well unless they want to offer A-Rod and pay his salary :D

redsfaninbsg
06-04-2006, 02:28 AM
How many fans though would actually understand dropping Griffey's salary? I'm all for a move of Griffey but at the same time if the Reds are 5 games or so within first place how do you trade him? The man has an avg of a RBI per game this year? Subtracting when as of today the Reds have their best chance of making the playoffs since 99 would be a bad PR move overall. I know many fans who go just to watch Griffey.

donnelly_31
06-04-2006, 03:04 AM
I don't trust the NY papers either but its not just them that hype everything mets and yankees. I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read on either ESPN or SI.com that the Mets were "stockpiling arms for a pennant run" That stockpiling they further explained included the addition of Dave Williams.

Outshined_One
06-04-2006, 03:12 AM
I don't trust the NY papers either but its not just them that hype everything mets and yankees. I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read on either ESPN or SI.com that the Mets were "stockpiling arms for a pennant run" That stockpiling they further explained included the addition of Dave Williams.

Their farm system is even worse off than the Yankees'! Now that Lastings Milledge has been called up, Mike Pelfrey is pretty much all that's left (with apologies to Tommy John Disease Survivor Philip Humber).

I really like guys like Milledge and Wright, but if the Mets want to grab an impact arm and don't want to trade either of them...they won't be getting a whole lot.

cincinnati chili
06-04-2006, 03:15 AM
10-5

EKURed
06-04-2006, 03:39 AM
Someone explain to me how trading a guy with 30 RBIs in about half the team's game makes them better. Also please explain who hits third with Junior gone. And also please tell me another guy on that team who hits home runs like the grand slam in Detroit and the walk off against the Nationals. Trade Griffey and you throw up the white flag...

jimbo
06-04-2006, 03:40 AM
Griffey would have to approve any trade.....keep that in mind.

If the Reds are contending, it simply makes no sense to dump players and it would send a bad message to fans. I can't see this happening, because I can't see Griffey approving it and I think the Reds will be considered contenders at the All-Star break and you don't go trading your best player when that's the case.

EKURed
06-04-2006, 03:46 AM
Griffey would have to approve any trade.....keep that in mind.

If the Reds are contending, it simply makes no sense to dump players and it would send a bad message to fans. I can't see this happening, because I can't see Griffey approving it and I think the Reds will be considered contenders at the All-Star break and you don't go trading your best player when that's the case.

Not only the message it would send to the fans, but could you even begin to imagine the reaction in the clubhouse if Griffey was traded??

Jpup
06-04-2006, 06:32 AM
The Yankees don't need a center fielder or a DH. just sayin. Jr. isn't going to NY. Melky Cabrera would look great in Red though.

GAC
06-04-2006, 07:49 AM
Jr has to OK the deal.... and I doubt he does.

He likes Cincy, and has also established a relationship with players on the team. That is important TO Jr.

No way he plays for Steinbrenner.

And as already stated above.... I show skepticism towards most NY media as reliable sources.

RedlegJake
06-04-2006, 11:15 AM
The Dunn part is ridiculous at least to NY. What could either NY club give us in prospects or players we need and can afford that would out produce Dunn? Junior's contract would make me think about letting him go for a lesser return just to free up dollars to make another trade but he'd have to approve a trade. I'm not sure he would with the Reds winning at last. This is what he came here for.

Krusty
06-04-2006, 11:16 AM
As long as the team is in contention, Krivsky won't deal these two unless he gets something substantial in return. New ownership is sending a message that they want to win. To pull the plug with the team less than five games away from the Cardinals would send a bad message that what ownership is saying is nothing more than hot air.

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 12:06 PM
Someone explain to me how trading a guy with 30 RBIs in about half the team's game makes them better. Also please explain who hits third with Junior gone. And also please tell me another guy on that team who hits home runs like the grand slam in Detroit and the walk off against the Nationals. Trade Griffey and you throw up the white flag...
Let's not get all crazy here...it is easy to point out some good points about Jr's year so far, but let's look at theother side:

1) Jr is obviously declining and the odds are not in his favor to remain healthy throughout the rest of his career, let alone this season.

2) Jr is not as great of a fielder as some people want to believe. It seems as if he does not go 100% in the field at all tims, especially when a ball is hit in front of him.

3) He has had some great moments since his return, as you have mentioned, but in those 2 games (vs Detroit and Wash) he did nothing in his other at bats (a combined 1-9 with zero RBI) so you can make a case that maybe the heroics weren't needed if he had production in those other ABs, especially in the Washington game since it went to extra innings. That's the one thing I always can't understand...you can look at the late inning hits but if the guy doesn't do anything for the first 8 or so innings, the heroics might not be needed.

4) Look at the big picture. If Jr's salary were to disappear and the Reds were able to get one or 2 decent prospects from NY, you wouldn't do it? How about if Cincy were able to turn around and use his money to get Cabrera or Willis in July? What if Kriv could dump Jr and then, after getting some good picks in the draft, was able to swing a deal for one or both of them using our all of a sudden replenished system (i.e., Bailey, Bruce, Deno, etc)?

I'm not advocating the trade of Jr unless the money will be used in a way to make the team better in the long haul. He will have his highlight reel moments but I feel that, with his injury history, he is too risky for a team playing with Cincy's budget. And Jr shouldn't even be hitting 3rd on the team now, so I wouldn't think it would be too difficult to replace him in that spot in the order. Especially if Cabrera were on the team. :)

Bobcat J
06-04-2006, 12:20 PM
Trade Griffey before the Reds fall out of the race and you lose a lot of fans and your attendance hits rock bottom.

But, if the savings were spent wisely on pitching, the team would be a real contender in 2007 or 2008. Make the palyoffs and the fans would come back.

EKURed
06-04-2006, 12:48 PM
I wonder if these kind of discussions go on with other teams who are within 3 games of their division lead????

DannyB
06-04-2006, 12:49 PM
Horses have 9 lives.......

Matt700wlw
06-04-2006, 12:55 PM
The Mets like Zito,


So do I...

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 01:01 PM
I wonder if these kind of discussions go on with other teams who are within 3 games of their division lead????
It's being realistic. This isn't NY where you don't have to worry about next year b/c money is never ending. If Jr were to blow out his hamstring this month and we refused a legitimate deal with someone, would you be kicking yourself? I realize anyone can get injured, but the odds are more likely with Jr.

redsfan4445
06-04-2006, 01:09 PM
Let's not get all crazy here...it is easy to point out some good points about Jr's year so far, but let's look at theother side:

1) Jr is obviously declining and the odds are not in his favor to remain healthy throughout the rest of his career, let alone this season.

2) Jr is not as great of a fielder as some people want to believe. It seems as if he does not go 100% in the field at all tims, especially when a ball is hit in front of him.

3) He has had some great moments since his return, as you have mentioned, but in those 2 games (vs Detroit and Wash) he did nothing in his other at bats (a combined 1-9 with zero RBI) so you can make a case that maybe the heroics weren't needed if he had production in those other ABs, especially in the Washington game since it went to extra innings. That's the one thing I always can't understand...you can look at the late inning hits but if the guy doesn't do anything for the first 8 or so innings, the heroics might not be needed.

4) Look at the big picture. If Jr's salary were to disappear and the Reds were able to get one or 2 decent prospects from NY, you wouldn't do it? How about if Cincy were able to turn around and use his money to get Cabrera or Willis in July? What if Kriv could dump Jr and then, after getting some good picks in the draft, was able to swing a deal for one or both of them using our all of a sudden replenished system (i.e., Bailey, Bruce, Deno, etc)?

I'm not advocating the trade of Jr unless the money will be used in a way to make the team better in the long haul. He will have his highlight reel moments but I feel that, with his injury history, he is too risky for a team playing with Cincy's budget. And Jr shouldn't even be hitting 3rd on the team now, so I wouldn't think it would be too difficult to replace him in that spot in the order. Especially if Cabrera were on the team. :)



How the heck can you say the Yanks have prospects??? they DONT... and trading Grifey would be a PR disaster.. Puhols just went down, the Reds are within 3 games of 1st, Griffey is playing well and you want to throw in the flag for a POSSIBLE chance to contend in 2007 or 2008? thats like saying trading for prospects that NEVER pan out and thats not the message BOB wants to show Reds fans.. and to say JR shouldn't bat 3rd?? pleaseeeeee.. he knows how to hit with men on base, DUNN has shown he cant do it....this wont happen and i get tired of all the trade JR talk.. let the man alone.. HE WANTS to be a Cincinnati Red.. how many others in MLB would take LESS to play here??? and heck even if his salary disappears.. who says there is anyone available to upgrade the pitching, without trading more talent that could help us in the future like a Homer Baily?? We are 3 games out, and Puhols is out for a long time.. thats going to take the wind out of the sails of the Cards. lets take advantage of their loss and go for 1st, not tell the Cards, "dont worry St.Louis , we will get rid of Griffey to balance it out for ya"!

pedro
06-04-2006, 01:10 PM
If the Reds traded Griffey and the Reds managed to stay in the race I really don't think it would effect attendance much. Fans generally come out to see winning teams more than they do specific players.

Falls City Beer
06-04-2006, 01:14 PM
As long as the team is in contention, Krivsky won't deal these two unless he gets something substantial in return. New ownership is sending a message that they want to win. To pull the plug with the team less than five games away from the Cardinals would send a bad message that what ownership is saying is nothing more than hot air.

I agree. Believe it or not, this is a political situation as much as a "baseball" one--I've felt this from the moment R Cast said "I'm not a patient man."

Castellini would look like a mealy-mouthed turd if he were to run the white flag up with the Reds within three games (right or wrong, I'm not sure it matters; that's how he'll be perceived.)

reds44
06-04-2006, 01:15 PM
The Yankees I don't think have enough for Dunn. However they do have enough for Junior, and I would be all for trading Junior there. If they want us to pay some of his salary then I ask for some decent prospects back, if they pay all of it I don't ask for much back.

Trading Griffey would allow you to trade for a big-time pitcher at the deadline because we would have enough money to afford him (i.e. Willis).

James B.
06-04-2006, 01:19 PM
[QUOTE edabbs 44

3) He has had some great moments since his return, as you have mentioned, but in those 2 games (vs Detroit and Wash) he did nothing in his other at bats (a combined 1-9 with zero RBI) so you can make a case that maybe the heroics weren't needed if he had production in those other ABs, especially in the Washington game since it went to extra innings. That's the one thing I always can't understand...you can look at the late inning hits but if the guy doesn't do anything for the first 8 or so innings, the heroics might not be needed.

I agreed with most of your post and think that the reds should trade Griffey if they can get pitching help. However I don't think that the comment that ya he won the game but what else did he do the rest of the game is a fair comment. Baseball is a game where superstars often fail 70% of the time.

IslandRed
06-04-2006, 01:19 PM
It might be different if the Yankees had some position of strength that met an area of need for us, where trading them Griffey became a good old-fashioned baseball trade rather than a payroll maneuver. But I don't see anything like that.

Anyway, not even the original article suggested that a Griffey trade would happen with the Reds still seriously contending. It's all contingent on a fadeout from the race, in which case the local reaction would be less severe.

westofyou
06-04-2006, 01:19 PM
When Reds fans start showing up to see only one player please notify me, until then they best determine how to win in the long run, not just little months like last July or this April... but really win, year after year.

Johnny Footstool
06-04-2006, 01:20 PM
If the Reds can get high-quality (not just decent), advanced pitching prospects in return, I'd consider the deal. But I'm not in favor of salary dumps when the minor league system is as barren as the Reds'. The idea that ownership will pour Griffey's salary back into payroll is a pipe dream, IMO.

Falls City Beer
06-04-2006, 01:22 PM
If the Reds can get high-quality (not just decent), advanced pitching prospects in return, I'd consider the deal. But I'm not in favor of salary dumps. The idea that ownership will pour Griffey's salary back into payroll is a pipe dream, IMO.

What about, say, half of Griffey's salary?

I think it's far more urgent to trade Kearns and get value than it is Griffey. Trading Griffey answers a very different set of needs for the team, and is less time-contingent.

reds44
06-04-2006, 01:22 PM
When Reds fans start showing up to see only one player please notify me, until then they best determine how to win in the long run, not just little months like last July or this April... but really win, year after year.
I agree.

Fans will keep coming if you trade Griffey and keep Dunn, now if you trade both of them (which hopefully we don't do) that is when the fan support will be hurt.

reds44
06-04-2006, 01:23 PM
What about, say, half of Griffey's salary?
$37 mil. through 2009 is a ton of money. I would be willing to pay some of it to get rid of it.

Blimpie
06-04-2006, 01:27 PM
Someone explain to me how trading a guy with 30 RBIs in about half the team's game makes them better. Also please explain who hits third with Junior gone. And also please tell me another guy on that team who hits home runs like the grand slam in Detroit and the walk off against the Nationals. Trade Griffey and you throw up the white flag...I'll give it a shot...

Griffey's RBI figures are largely a product of where he is batting in the order and the unique ability for those batting ahead of him to get on base. Although he continues to drive in runs consistently, Griffey's OBP has been anemic since his return from the DL. The only true question remains that if Griffey were gone, could a Chris Denorfia make a similar contribution to the batting order? Probably not the same exact numbers as Junior on a long-term basis, but the aggregate team production should not suffer appreciably. As we all know, this team will score runs with or without Griffey. Besides, I believe that if Kearns suddenly begins batting in Griffey's spot, one will not see much of a decline in the overall numbers.

Here's the rub: When talking about Junior, you HAVE to think about things on a long-term basis. He is not going to be playing a full season anymore in his career. Anybody who watched Freel patrolling CF against the Astros last night knows that Griffey doesn't even come close to that ball--let alone make the catch.

Pitching and defense are what this team needs--and a lot of both things. If moving Griffey can somehow free up enough cash to make some moves to improve the pitching staff, Krivsky has to pull the trigger. The OF defense gets better by a larger extent the minute either Freel or Denorifa take the field. Let's not bring up the whole fan attendance thing either....Griffey, by himself, can't put fannies in the seats, but a winning club in August will certainly ensure just that will happen.

If the Yankees get desperate enough--I'd send them Junior and his contract without wanting anyone in return.

redsfan4445
06-04-2006, 01:31 PM
The Yankees I don't think have enough for Dunn. However they do have enough for Junior, and I would be all for trading Junior there. If they want us to pay some of his salary then I ask for some decent prospects back, if they pay all of it I don't ask for much back.

Trading Griffey would allow you to trade for a big-time pitcher at the deadline because we would have enough money to afford him (i.e. Willis).

....the starting point for Willis is going to be Homer Baily and Travis Chick.. they said theMarlins are asking for a ton for Willis

alexad
06-04-2006, 01:32 PM
Yes the Reds are finally in contention and people on here still believe we need to trade all of our star players for the future.

Yes we have a new owner who has been more than willing to eat money to make money. This guy said he wants to win today not tomorrow. SO trading key players from a team that is starting to look "FOR REAL" does not make since.

Also this is all being started by NEW YORK PAPERS!!! The Yankees are in trouble and of course they are going to start rumors about looking at players.


Can you please tell "ONE" player who the Yankees would trade that would make are team any better than what it is right now.

The starting pitching for the Reds is fine with me right now. Why tweak something that is not broken.

YEs the bullpen needs help, but you do not trade JR. or Dunn to fix that problem.

pedro
06-04-2006, 01:34 PM
....the starting point for Willis is going to be Homer Baily and Travis Chick.. they said theMarlins are asking for a ton for Willis

I think you'd better add an EE in there before they'd even give it a thought.

reds44
06-04-2006, 01:36 PM
Yes the Reds are finally in contention and people on here still believe we need to trade all of our star players for the future.

Yes we have a new owner who has been more than willing to eat money to make money. This guy said he wants to win today not tomorrow. SO trading key players from a team that is starting to look "FOR REAL" does not make since.

Also this is all being started by NEW YORK PAPERS!!! The Yankees are in trouble and of course they are going to start rumors about looking at players.


Can you please tell "ONE" player who the Yankees would trade that would make are team any better than what it is right now.

The starting pitching for the Reds is fine with me right now. Why tweak something that is not broken.

YEs the bullpen needs help, but you do not trade JR. or Dunn to fix that problem.
You don't trade Dunn. Griffey, at 35, an injury waiting to happen, and $37 mil. still left to be payed, you trade when you can. I think Freel and Deno could fill in at center and do a good job, but if you really needed a CF there will be ones available at the deadline.

Griffey has a .315 OBP, and has shown no size of walking lately. It isn't like he has been very good as of late anyway.

Trading Dunn and trading Griffey are horses of different colors.

reds44
06-04-2006, 01:37 PM
I think you'd better add and EE in there before they'd even give it a thought.
My point wasn't just Willis, it would allow you to have the money to trade for a pitcher or sign one in the offseason.

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 01:38 PM
How the heck can you say the Yanks have prospects??? they DONT... and trading Grifey would be a PR disaster.. Puhols just went down, the Reds are within 3 games of 1st, Griffey is playing well and you want to throw in the flag for a POSSIBLE chance to contend in 2007 or 2008? thats like saying trading for prospects that NEVER pan out and thats not the message BOB wants to show Reds fans.. and to say JR shouldn't bat 3rd?? pleaseeeeee.. he knows how to hit with men on base, DUNN has shown he cant do it....this wont happen and i get tired of all the trade JR talk.. let the man alone.. HE WANTS to be a Cincinnati Red.. how many others in MLB would take LESS to play here??? and heck even if his salary disappears.. who says there is anyone available to upgrade the pitching, without trading more talent that could help us in the future like a Homer Baily?? We are 3 games out, and Puhols is out for a long time.. thats going to take the wind out of the sails of the Cards. lets take advantage of their loss and go for 1st, not tell the Cards, "dont worry St.Louis , we will get rid of Griffey to balance it out for ya"!
If the Yankees offered Melky Cabrera (21 yrs old) and Philip Hughes and offered to pay the bulk of Jr's salary, there is no possible way they can say no. And then when Griffey has is annual hamstring surgery in September, Wayne will have a monument out front of GABP.

Think about it.

alexad
06-04-2006, 01:39 PM
I do not see the Reds trading Griffey. There are alot of 35 year olds playing top caliber baseball right now.

I honestly feel Griffey is the glue to this team. He is tearing the ball off the cover right now.

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 01:40 PM
My point wasn't just Willis, it would allow you to have the money to trade for a pitcher or sign one in the offseason.
Exactly. There would be so much breathing room Wayne would go clinically insane trying to use the money. Not trading Griffey (if on the table) would be the same as trading for Randy Johnson with an injury history.

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 01:42 PM
Yes the Reds are finally in contention and people on here still believe we need to trade all of our star players for the future.

Yes we have a new owner who has been more than willing to eat money to make money. This guy said he wants to win today not tomorrow. SO trading key players from a team that is starting to look "FOR REAL" does not make since.

Also this is all being started by NEW YORK PAPERS!!! The Yankees are in trouble and of course they are going to start rumors about looking at players.


Can you please tell "ONE" player who the Yankees would trade that would make are team any better than what it is right now.

The starting pitching for the Reds is fine with me right now. Why tweak something that is not broken.

YEs the bullpen needs help, but you do not trade JR. or Dunn to fix that problem.
Dealing Griffey might not directly impact the Reds right now regarding the players they would get in return. But the Reds will become BUYERS instead of SELLERS over the next two months and if they had millions to throw around, there will be plenty of players available to help them.

Falls City Beer
06-04-2006, 01:59 PM
I think you'd better add an EE in there before they'd even give it a thought.

Probably. Straight up I'd do it, but not with those other big trading chips going in the same deal for one pitcher.

TeamBoone
06-04-2006, 02:01 PM
As long as the Reds are winning, I think Griffey would nix any trade, even if it was to a team that he actually might not mind.

Dunn is a franchise player; I honestly don't think K would trade him. I can't even imagine Dunn living in NY. I think he'd be very very unhappy.

Personally, I don't want prospects for a future Hall of Famer who is current playing a very decent game of baseball, nor do I want prospects for a Reds franchise player who's in his prime right now and has no where to go but up. Prospects? No way.

Newman4
06-04-2006, 02:02 PM
Umm, the Yanks aren't "in trouble" they're in first place. For those of you that say they have no prospects, the deal edabbs44 proposed features two pretty decent prospects with Hughes #39 in BA's Top 100 (Homer is #38) and Cabrera, however I prefer Eric Duncan.

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 02:15 PM
Umm, the Yanks aren't "in trouble" they're in first place. For those of you that say they have no prospects, the deal edabbs44 proposed features two pretty decent prospects with Hughes #39 in BA's Top 100 (Homer is #38) and Cabrera, however I prefer Eric Duncan.
I used to like Duncan (and so did the old FO of the Reds as they were contemplating taking him in the draft) but he is starting to look like Drew Henson. I have a feeling that the Yanks will give up on Duncan this year and deal him at the deadline. They are the masters of overhyping their "prospects" and getting too much for them. Check out his stats this year...pretty pathetic.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/stats/player.php?id=449080

Matt700wlw
06-04-2006, 02:19 PM
Dunn is a franchise player; I honestly don't think K would trade him.

For the right deal, he would.

Big Klu
06-04-2006, 02:20 PM
Are the Reds really that hamstrung (no pun intended) by Griffey's salary? Remember, we have a new owner in Bob Castellini, and I have yet to hear anything from him or his camp that indicates to me that the club is tapped out financially. On the contrary, I have heard that he is willing to add payroll should the Reds find themselves in a contending position in July.

This is no longer the Carl Lindner penny-pinching regime. I think that Bob C. realizes that player salaries are a cost of doing business. He knew ahead of time what the current payroll entailed, and he accepted that when he purchased the club. I see no reason why he would now say, "Oh, gee. We have to get rid of Griffey because he makes too much, and we can't afford other players if we are paying him." Instead, I see him saying something like, "If we need more players at the deadline, then we will ante up and pay more."

Falls City Beer
06-04-2006, 02:23 PM
Are the Reds really that hamstrung (no pun intended) by Griffey's salary?

Not as much as they once were, IMO. But that's speculative on my part.

GOREDSGO32
06-04-2006, 02:23 PM
It doesn't matter if we are maxed financially ... even if we aren't thats still 10 mil that could be used to a better cause either way. I don't care who you are, if you have an underachieving player with a huge contract, and you have a chance to get rid of him ... its a no brainer .. no matter if you are the Yankees, Reds, or Marlins.

Jr's Boy
06-04-2006, 02:29 PM
The bottom line is Junior can veto any trade.So this''The Reds could send him for so and so,the Reds would let them have Junior if they would eat his contract''is all hyperbole.It's his decision wherever he goes.

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 02:29 PM
Are the Reds really that hamstrung (no pun intended) by Griffey's salary? Remember, we have a new owner in Bob Castellini, and I have yet to hear anything from him or his camp that indicates to me that the club is tapped out financially. On the contrary, I have heard that he is willing to add payroll should the Reds find themselves in a contending position in July.

This is no longer the Carl Lindner penny-pinching regime. I think that Bob C. realizes that player salaries are a cost of doing business. He knew ahead of time what the current payroll entailed, and he accepted that when he purchased the club. I see no reason why he would now say, "Oh, gee. We have to get rid of Griffey because he makes to much, and we can't afford other players if we are paying him." Instead, I see him saying something like, "If we need more players at the deadline, then we will ante up and pay more."
There is a difference btw being hamstrung by someone's salary and paying too much money for someone's services. LaRue's $ isn't earth-shattering but I'm sure they would help pack his bags if given the opportunity.

I have no problem trading Griffey IF the money saved is distributed wisely to help the ballclub, both for the present and the future. The risk is too great. What are the odds he goes down this season for an extended period of time? 30%? 40%?

I've seen arguments made where people say Griffey boosts attendance. The Reds attendance is nothing to brag about and as previously mentioned in another post, a playoff chase would boost attendance way more than just having him in uniform (which is no guarantee anyway).

jimbo
06-04-2006, 02:36 PM
It's just amazing how almost any Reds discussion anymore always turns to Junior. After the game last night, turn on WLW and what are they talking about? Not the win and the nice performance by Arroyo or Ross, but whether or not Junior could have caught that ball. One of the most active threads here currently is whether or not you trade your best player while in contention. Griffey is declining, has a low OBP, lost his step, blah blah blah. Griffey will never be able to do enough for some fans.

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 02:37 PM
Griffey is declining, has a low OBP, lost his step, blah blah blah.

The sad thing is those are all true.

jimbo
06-04-2006, 02:43 PM
The sad thing is those are all true.

What's even sadder is that some fans can see only that.

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 02:49 PM
What's even sadder is that some fans can see only that.
OK...if Griffey were to be traded and the FO had excess millions to spend, you still think it would hurt the team?

Let me know how you felt when Larkin got that obscene contract from Linder and how that ended up.

BigRed
06-04-2006, 02:52 PM
Bottom Line, I appreciate Junior being here and believe that he should retire as a Red. Even if they need to move him to a different position, which I know he is opposed to. He is a clutch player, catches everything he gets to, and does not make any bonehead plays. Even though he's younger, I would move Dunn. Dunn is a one-dimensional player. He either hits a homer or strikes out. He is not a good fielder anywhere on the field. I also think that you get a lot more for Dunn than you do Junior because of the salaries. I really don't see Dunn getting any better than he is now. I also would quickly dump LaRue to anyone that would take him and make Ross the #1 catcher.

jimbo
06-04-2006, 02:57 PM
OK...if Griffey were to be traded and the FO had excess millions to spend, you still think it would hurt the team?

Let me know how you felt when Larkin got that obscene contract from Linder and how that ended up.

The Reds had excesses in millions from the Casey dump and nothing was done with it. It's how you spend the money you have, not how much you have.

I don't blame Larkin's contract on this team's ineptness during that span at all. I put total blame on Lindner and his management who had no clue on how to run a major league organization.

Trading your best player while your contending is just seriously flawed.

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 02:59 PM
The Reds had excesses in millions from the Casey dump and nothing was done with it. It's how you spend the money you have, not how much you have.

I don't blame Larkin's contract on this team's ineptness during that span at all. I put total blame on Lindner and his management who had no clue on how to run a major league organization.

Trading your best player while your contending is just seriously flawed.
Wasn't Dunn re-signed?

And Griffey isn't the best player on this team right now.

jimbo
06-04-2006, 03:01 PM
Wasn't Dunn re-signed?

And Griffey isn't the best player on this team right now.

Dunn would have been signed whether or not Casey's contract was still with the Reds or not.

Whether or not Griffey is the best player on the team or not is a matter of opinion, I realize that. In my opinion, he is by far the best.

Cigar2
06-04-2006, 03:21 PM
If the Reds can get high-quality (not just decent), advanced pitching prospects in return, I'd consider the deal. But I'm not in favor of salary dumps when the minor league system is as barren as the Reds'. The idea that ownership will pour Griffey's salary back into payroll is a pipe dream, IMO.

Right ON!! Do the Yankness or Mets have what WE really need in the minors?

Nope not really.

RAS
06-04-2006, 03:22 PM
I'd give up Dunn ina heartbeat. The guy has continued to be our #4 hitter yet is not an RBI man. He's batting about .333 over the p[ast 7 games yet only has 1 RBI. I still feel that if pitchers start challenging him rather than walking him, he may hit a few more HRs but overall, his good OBP drops significantly and he still only hits .240. I'm not convinced he takes his profession seriously.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-04-2006, 03:23 PM
Griffey is not 35. He is 36 and will be 37 in November and his legs may be older than that even.

If there are decent prospects to be had and they take a chunk of that salary, you have to make the deal.

Only an organization with no identity and no vision holds on to him even when the deal is right. And that part of the organization (DanO, Lindner) has been removed.

I would expect the deal to be made if it's right.

OnBaseMachine
06-04-2006, 03:30 PM
I'd give up Dunn ina heartbeat. The guy has continued to be our #4 hitter yet is not an RBI man. He's batting about .333 over the p[ast 7 games yet only has 1 RBI. I still feel that if pitchers start challenging him rather than walking him, he may hit a few more HRs but overall, his good OBP drops significantly and he still only hits .240. I'm not convinced he takes his profession seriously.

Damn him for batting behind Aurilia and Griffey, two slow guys with poor OBP's.

:rolleyes:

jimbo
06-04-2006, 03:31 PM
I'd give up Dunn ina heartbeat. The guy has continued to be our #4 hitter yet is not an RBI man. He's batting about .333 over the p[ast 7 games yet only has 1 RBI. I still feel that if pitchers start challenging him rather than walking him, he may hit a few more HRs but overall, his good OBP drops significantly and he still only hits .240. I'm not convinced he takes his profession seriously.

Not an RBI man? The guy is once again on pace for 40+ home runs, 100+ rbis, and 100+ runs scorred, for a third straight year. He isn't getting paid for his OBP and average.

Cigar2
06-04-2006, 03:39 PM
Also the way I see it if WayneO is going to make any really big TRADES.
It's going to after the amateur draft when WE the fans see really what drafting plan Wayne and staff has for building a team.

westofyou
06-04-2006, 03:47 PM
I'm not convinced he takes his profession seriously.
Yep, he's a regular Max Patkin.

flyer85
06-04-2006, 03:51 PM
Yanks don't have much to offer. If the Reds trade Jr it would be as a salary dump.

RAS
06-04-2006, 04:10 PM
I think if you plugged in Kearns, EE or even Aurilia in the #4 spot and left them there, with this offense, they too would likely have 100 RBIs

paulrichjr
06-04-2006, 05:13 PM
The article stated that Griffey was here through 2009 at 37 million...Isn't that wrong? I think 2009 is an option year and part of that 37 million is option money. In effect we only have to pay Griffey for 2 1/2 more seasons and I don't think he is making anywhere near $15 million per season...Is he?

KronoRed
06-04-2006, 05:15 PM
2009 is a club option with a 4mill buyout.

westofyou
06-04-2006, 05:16 PM
I think if you plugged in Kearns, EE or even Aurilia in the #4 spot and left them there, with this offense, they too would likely have 100 RBIs
Of course because so many guys have 100 RBI's for the Reds over the past 25 years. It's really very simple.


CINCINNATI REDS
SEASON
1980-2005

RBI YEAR RBI
1 Dave Parker 1985 125
T2 Ken Griffey Jr. 2000 118
T2 Greg Vaughn 1999 118
4 Dave Parker 1986 116
5 Adam Dunn 2004 102
T6 Eric Davis 1989 101
T6 Adam Dunn 2005 101
8 Eric Davis 1987 100

Newman4
06-04-2006, 05:30 PM
I'm for trading anyone if it will help the team win games.

jimbo
06-04-2006, 05:31 PM
The article stated that Griffey was here through 2009 at 37 million...Isn't that wrong? I think 2009 is an option year and part of that 37 million is option money. In effect we only have to pay Griffey for 2 1/2 more seasons and I don't think he is making anywhere near $15 million per season...Is he?

He isn't even the highest paid player on the team currently.....that award goes to Milton. Griffey's bringing in $9 million this season......some of his salary is deferred.

KronoRed
06-04-2006, 05:37 PM
But the Reds are (and have been since the start) putting the deferred money away as if he's being paid.

jimbo
06-04-2006, 05:41 PM
But the Reds are (and have been since the start) putting the deferred money away as if he's being paid.

But it isn't figured into the team's budgeted salary. Or am I wrong on that?

KoryMac5
06-04-2006, 07:40 PM
We are talking about getting rid of players (Griffey) to free up money. Sounds like some of us still think Linder is running the team. I am willing to bet and I think Castalini is on record as saying that he would open up the purse strings if the Reds are in contention. Trading Griffey for marginal prospects just to free up salary would be a monumental mistake. New Ownership, New GM, New Philosophy on running a sucessful franchise.

IslandRed
06-04-2006, 07:42 PM
But it isn't figured into the team's budgeted salary. Or am I wrong on that?

It may or may not appear as part of Griffey's salary for public consumption, but internally, it's part of the whole "how much are we spending on ballplayers this year" budget calculation, along with benefits and perks and everything else.

JaxRed estimated that Griffey's real cost per year (salary plus money kicked into the annuity, or whatever is going to fund the deferred payments starting in 2009) is about $10.2 million.

IslandRed
06-04-2006, 07:51 PM
We are talking about getting rid of players (Griffey) to free up money. Sounds like some of us still think Linder is running the team. I am willing to bet and I think Castalini is on record as saying that he would open up the purse strings if the Reds are in contention. Trading Griffey for marginal prospects just to free up salary would be a monumental mistake. New Ownership, New GM, New Philosophy on running a sucessful franchise.

It would be a monumental mistake if we're still talking about a contending team in 2006. A smart baseball guy would know better than to pull a "win later" move in a "win now" situation. But if 2006 goes by the boards and the question becomes what the Reds should do to win in 2007, trading Griffey becomes a reasonable topic of discussion.

jimbo
06-04-2006, 08:07 PM
It would be a monumental mistake if we're still talking about a contending team in 2006. A smart baseball guy would know better than to pull a "win later" move in a "win now" situation. But if 2006 goes by the boards and the question becomes what the Reds should do to win in 2007, trading Griffey becomes a reasonable topic of discussion.

I totally agree with your comments. If the Reds are out of the playoff hunt come the trading deadline, by all means shop Junior around and see if you get some quality prospects and dump his contract. If the Reds are in the playoff hunt come the trading deadline and someone comes along and offers a top quality starter who can help this team this season, then that would have to be considered. This would have to take a very unique situation for it to happen though.

Trading Junior while the team is contending merely to dump his salary and get some prospects it just not a decision that I see this management making, or any management in baseball as far as that goes.

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 08:14 PM
We are talking about getting rid of players (Griffey) to free up money. Sounds like some of us still think Linder is running the team. I am willing to bet and I think Castalini is on record as saying that he would open up the purse strings if the Reds are in contention. Trading Griffey for marginal prospects just to free up salary would be a monumental mistake. New Ownership, New GM, New Philosophy on running a sucessful franchise.
Castellini isn't rich enough to run this team like they are in NY. And when this team was in first people said that they were only getting 18k at a game b/c fans don't usually show up until school is out.

Bob, please dump as much money into this team as possible. And maybe, if you are still in it when school is out, you'll start getting fans in the seats to help pay for your investments. Maybe if the city started showing up before July then Bob would feel better about dumping some $ into the team. Because if he does start throwing money around and the team fades and attendance dwindles, then I'm willing to bet he'll become a little jaded.

Nugget
06-04-2006, 08:16 PM
Hey Mods - where is that dead horse thread?

Actually, as many of know Griffey's effect on payroll is not nearly as much as the national media make it out to be (especially New York's). Junior has an annual contract salary of around $11 million, however, half of that is deferred (I believe that even the money that he is owed, the REDS will be paying that until about 2030). Accordingly, the REDS need to account for Junior's money but because of deferrals and such its only about $8 million (not the $37 over 3 years as the media makes out). Of the $8 about $6.5 is paid in the current year.l

Also, if Junior is going to be worth the bulk of salary plus some pretty good prospects that would mean that he must be 1) really healthy, 2) probably be up projecting to be up in the top 5 of career home runs and 3) Brian Cashman has had a labotomy.

Jpup
06-04-2006, 08:49 PM
Maybe if the city started showing up before July then Bob would feel better about dumping some $ into the team.

I agree with that.

KoryMac5
06-04-2006, 08:55 PM
Castellini isn't rich enough to run this team like they are in NY. And when this team was in first people said that they were only getting 18k at a game b/c fans don't usually show up until school is out.

Bob, please dump as much money into this team as possible. And maybe, if you are still in it when school is out, you'll start getting fans in the seats to help pay for your investments. Maybe if the city started showing up before July then Bob would feel better about dumping some $ into the team. Because if he does start throwing money around and the team fades and attendance dwindles, then I'm willing to bet he'll become a little jaded.

Not many owners out their are rich enough to run a team like the New York's and Boston's of the world. But we do have an owner that I think will listen to Wayne in what moves need to be done. Case in point Williams DFA'd and Womack. I fully expect Bob to open the bank a bit if the Reds continue to be in contention and Wayne needs to go out and get a missing piece.

Strikes Out Looking
06-04-2006, 08:59 PM
My two cents:

The Reds will be in contention longer than the Yankees this year. Yes, I know the Yanks are playing well at the moment, but their players are falling like flies and they won't keep it up. They have nothing we want for our stretch run.

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 09:01 PM
Not many owners out their are rich enough to run a team like the New York's and Boston's of the world. But we do have an owner that I think will listen to Wayne in what moves need to be done. Case in point Williams DFA'd and Womack. I fully expect Bob to open the bank a bit if the Reds continue to be in contention and Wayne needs to go out and get a missing piece.
Yeah but my point was that attendance is embarrassing unless they are in the race come July. So I could see Bob making a statement this year since it is his first. But if he does and they fall out, and attendance is in the 15k range in September, I'm sure he will not be happy and will remember 2006 come next year.

George Foster
06-04-2006, 09:03 PM
Griffey would have to approve any trade.....keep that in mind.

If the Reds are contending, it simply makes no sense to dump players and it would send a bad message to fans. I can't see this happening, because I can't see Griffey approving it and I think the Reds will be considered contenders at the All-Star break and you don't go trading your best player when that's the case.

He's a walking time bomb phyisically. Great guy, great when he's healthy, like now but we all know it won't last...the best predictor of the future is the past. He's got the legs of a 50 year old. Dump the salary, bring up Dino.

jimbo
06-04-2006, 09:23 PM
He's a walking time bomb phyisically. Great guy, great when he's healthy, like now but we all know it won't last...the best predictor of the future is the past. He's got the legs of a 50 year old. Dump the salary, bring up Dino.


If he plays as many games as he did last year, I'd be happy. Those 50 year old legs seem to still have some game in them, as show by his recent play. Dumping him because of salary while in contention is suicide and would be irresponsible.

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 09:30 PM
If he plays as many games as he did last year, I'd be happy. Those 50 year old legs seem to still have some game in them, as show by his recent play. Dumping him because of salary while in contention is suicide and would be irresponsible.
I wouldn't be happy since he had major surgery in September. Which would make him worthless for the playoffs, if they make it. Thanks.

MaineRed
06-04-2006, 09:42 PM
50 year old legs? Come on. How old are Julio Franco's legs? Could he play center as well as Junior? Obviously The Kid is no longer a gold glove caliber player or as good defensively as Freel or Denorfia but he can still play.

I don't get why people continue to say, "dump the salary." How many times do people have to point out that Junior has the right to veto any trade? Junior likes Cincy. He forced his way here. Nothing indicates he wants to leave. Things are going well. What is going to happen when Griffey is asked if wants to go to NY and he says no? What kind of message is it going to send if the Reds are trying to convince Junior to leave because of his salary after all that he has given to the team and the city? Especially when the club is playing well? I bet Adam Dunn and Austin Kearns would be very excited about the move. They'd probably think, gee, if we keep playing well maybe we'll deal Bronson too. What kind of relationship will Junior, knowing he isn't wanted going to have with ownership and the front office if decides he doesn't want to go?

Hopefully the Reds can stay in contention and Griff can stay healthy. I think it is in the cards. It is time for folks to be reminded of how good Griffey still is. He deserves 4 or 5 more seasons of 40 plus bombs. Here's to hoping its done in Cincy.

TeamBoone
06-04-2006, 09:43 PM
I wouldn't be happy since he had major surgery in September. Which would make him worthless for the playoffs, if they make it. Thanks.

Where'd you buy your crystal ball? I'd like to get one.

Nugget
06-04-2006, 09:43 PM
I wouldn't be happy since he had major surgery in September. Which would make him worthless for the playoffs, if they make it. Thanks.

Actually he had no surgery in September, he had time off. He had minor arthoscopic surgery in late October.

jimbo
06-04-2006, 09:48 PM
I wouldn't be happy since he had major surgery in September. Which would make him worthless for the playoffs, if they make it. Thanks.

Can you give me some lottery numbers since you seem to be able to see into the future?

GOREDSGO32
06-04-2006, 09:53 PM
It wouldn't be irresponsible. It's not like he's dominating at the plate, and he's been poor in the field. You have a chance to trade someone like that with a big contact you do it, its not irresponsible .. it would be though if the GM/owner stubbornly kept him along though.

jimbo
06-04-2006, 09:57 PM
It wouldn't be irresponsible. It's not like he's dominating at the plate, and he's been poor in the field. You have a chance to trade someone like that with a big contact you do it, its not irresponsible .. it would be though if the GM/owner stubbornly kept him along though.

I'm not even sure how to respond to that. :help:

Nugget
06-04-2006, 10:06 PM
I'm not even sure how to respond to that. :help:

Must have Junior mixed up with another player.:confused:

edabbs44
06-04-2006, 11:19 PM
Can you give me some lottery numbers since you seem to be able to see into the future?
Not the future, last year. I was responding to another post saying that he would be happy if Griffey had as many ABs as he did last year. My response was that he ended his season early by having surgery. I admit I was wrong, that it wasn't major. But he had a foot sprain which ended his season and then had knee and hamstring surgery after the season was over. So if we were happy with last year's at bats and he had a repeat performance THIS YEAR, then THIS YEAR he won't be available for the playoffs if there are any.

And tomorrow's lottery numbers will be: 1,5,8,10,18,20 and the powerball is 24.

And my crystal ball is on the fritz.

OldXOhio
06-04-2006, 11:30 PM
No way he plays for Steinbrenner.



bygones

jimbo
06-04-2006, 11:52 PM
But he had a foot sprain which ended his season and then had knee and hamstring surgery after the season was over. So if we were happy with last year's at bats and he had a repeat performance THIS YEAR, then THIS YEAR he won't be available for the playoffs if there are any.


If I remember correctly, management stated when Junior ended last season that if the the Reds were in playoff contention that he would have continued playing. So yes, I'll still be happy if he plays the same amount of games this season as last.

Jpup
06-05-2006, 01:54 AM
My two cents:

The Reds will be in contention longer than the Yankees this year. Yes, I know the Yanks are playing well at the moment, but their players are falling like flies and they won't keep it up. They have nothing we want for our stretch run.

if history is any indication, you are very wrong.

MaineRed
06-05-2006, 07:47 AM
Well if history is an indication, someone made some serious mistakes when drafting his fantasy team.

Strikes Out Looking
06-05-2006, 09:29 AM
During recent past history at least three things were very different:

1. Bob Castellini was not the owner of the Reds.
2. The Yankees were younger and not as banged up.
3. The Yankees had some farm system players to trade (Wily Mo, Claussen). They got nothing at the moment.

edabbs44
06-05-2006, 09:47 AM
During recent past history at least three things were very different:

1. Bob Castellini was not the owner of the Reds.
2. The Yankees were younger and not as banged up.
3. The Yankees had some farm system players to trade (Wily Mo, Claussen). They got nothing at the moment.
WMP and Claussen? Boy, the NYY farm system must be barren now! Actually, the NYY are masters of self promotion. I will give them credit for that. The % of "prospects" they trade that pan out is extremely low. But if the name Hughes is mentioned in a Griffey deal, I think Wayne might have to hit mute so Cashman doesn't here the cheers coming from the room.

Krusty
06-05-2006, 09:55 AM
How about this trade idea:

Dunn to Detroit for RHP Jeremy Bonderman.

Now I don't think the Tigers will make the deal till Maroth comes back off the DL. But Dunn would be a perfect fit as a DH for the Tigers. The Reds get a starter that could possibly win 15-20 games.

Opinions?

OnBaseMachine
06-05-2006, 10:15 AM
How about this trade idea:

Dunn to Detroit for RHP Jeremy Bonderman.

Now I don't think the Tigers will make the deal till Maroth comes back off the DL. But Dunn would be a perfect fit as a DH for the Tigers. The Reds get a starter that could possibly win 15-20 games.

Opinions?

No.

Bonderman is a solid pitcher, but the Reds need an ACE in return for Dunn. A Rich Harden, Francisco Liriano plus prospect, or Jake Peavy type of return is mandatory for Dunn.

REDREAD
06-05-2006, 10:26 AM
How the heck can you say the Yanks have prospects??? they DONT... and trading Grifey would be a PR disaster..

I agree. I can understand the premise that trading Jr would free up a bunch of money to spend next year, but we have to realize that we aren't going to get our pick of the litter of free agents. No one is going to give us prized prospects for Jr.

IMO, it's not worth the hit to take a salary dump for Jr. He provides value to this team, and dumping him will ultimately cost us more wins. Sure, Jr is an injury pick, but so are Mulder/Zito/or whatever free agent pitcher that you'd like to sign this offseason.

I honestly don't think a Jr trade is going to happen. If Cast wanted Jr traded, Jr would've be a White Sox last year. Note that Cast silently approved dumping Casey's salary last year. But I think Cast realizes that Jr is a fan draw, plus he's a legit middle of the order bat.

I agree with pedro's point that if the team won a lot of games w/o Jr, that the fans would be more forgiving. However, I think the team loses quite a few games by subracting Jr (we wouldn't get any players close to the ML in return).

registerthis
06-05-2006, 10:46 AM
Here's the problem with trading Junior right now (aside from his 10-5 rights):

As numerous people on this thread have mentioned, if Junior is traded right now it would be as a salary dump. The Yanks don't have the prospects we're looking for, and we wouldn't be looking to take on comparable ML talent (nor would the Yanks be looking to give it.) So trading Griffey would be, unquestionably, a move to slash payroll.

RCast has been building his reputation in Cinci as an owner who, while remaining fiscally responsible, is not averse to spending the money and making the moves necessary to make this team competitive. Regardless of how much "sense" some of us on this board believe a trade of Junior might make for the long-term viability of this franchise, the majority of fans (and, likely, the media) wouldn't view it that way. "Same stuff, different owner" would be the phrase of the day amongst many Reds fans if Junior is traded in a salary-dumping move. Granted, if the Reds were to trade Junior and somehow remain in the race, the criticisms would be significantly dampened. But if a Junior trade mirrors a collapse in the standings by the Reds, the fan base will--rightly or wrongly--draw associations between the two.

Like FCB stated earlier, this is a political move as much as it is an economical one. If Castellini is able to find a suitor for Junior willing to pony up quality prospects for him, he'd be a fool not to seriously consider the offer. But a trade of Junior merely to dump salary while the Reds remain in contention is an extremely risky move by Castellini--he'd be playing with fire, and he knows it.

gonelong
06-05-2006, 11:13 AM
As numerous people on this thread have mentioned, if Junior is traded right now it would be as a salary dump.


It would if that was the only move. If another move was made to land a high level starting pitcher I don't think most people would bat an eye.

Take Jr's $$ and put it towards DWillis ... yepper! However, Jr does alot for this offense, we would definately feel the impact there IMO. I also feel we would gain a bit defensively with a Denorfia/Freel platoon in CF.

I'd sure take a listen if NY came a callin'.

GL

registerthis
06-05-2006, 11:38 AM
Take Jr's $$ and put it towards DWillis ... yepper! However, Jr does alot for this offense, we would definately feel the impact there IMO. I also feel we would gain a bit defensively with a Denorfia/Freel platoon in CF.

FWIW, I think the thing standing between the Reds and the acquisition of someone like Willis is a lack of tradeable talent, not money. I believe if Casteliini had the trading chips at his disposal in the minors, he'd have been on the phone with the Marlins long ago.

But I do agree with your premise, that if the Reds were to obtain something of value--either directly or indirectly--as a result of a Junior trade, it would soften the blow. But it's a dangerous proposition to consider when the Reds are seemingly giving indications that they're going to remain competitive for the forseeable future.

2001MUgrad
06-05-2006, 01:26 PM
I wouldn't be opposed to trading Griffey if the Reds had something to play in his place. If they still had Willy Mo I'd make that move yesterday, but they don't have that 4th OF like they did when they had Guillen or Juan E. There is just no replacement. Right now the Reds are lacking in the BP, I feel like the closer to July it gets and the Reds are still in it, the more I feel like they can get that arm or 2 they need to be in contention until the end. Releif pitchers are not that expensive or hard to come by, so it shouldn't mean that have to mortgage the future to get a couple of reliable BP pitchers.

The Reds are where they are right now because of starting pitching. They also had a rough June because they couldn't hit. How is trading your top RBI guy going to make the team better?? Until Edwin is ready to put the team on his back I don't think you can trade a healthy Griffey and not get a lot worse.

EKURed
06-05-2006, 01:33 PM
Griffey is the middle of the order. Plain and simple. How many are willing to rely on Dunn for the big hit in the clutch? If you don't have Griffey, who hits third? I know earlier in the season everyone said that was the spot for Dunn. But, doesn't he strike out way too much?

In fact, I'm of the opinion that a permanent switch be made with Griffey 3rd and Kearns 4th. Kearns is really, really good....even though he can be a tad streaky from time to time.

2001MUgrad
06-05-2006, 01:36 PM
Of course because so many guys have 100 RBI's for the Reds over the past 25 years. It's really very simple.



I realize that injuries and slumps happen, but if things remain relatively unchanged and players remain relatively healthy. You could have as many as 5 Reds with 100 RBI's this year.

Griffey, Kearns, EdwinE, Dunn, and Phillips are all on pace to do it. I don't think Phillips will reach 80, but if Felo starts hitting the ball and gets out of the leadoff spot he has a chance for 80-100.

But you never know. The wheels could fall off tomorrow and they could struggle the rest of the year. But they are about 1/3 of the way home, so who knows. Anything can happen.

savafan
06-05-2006, 01:40 PM
This is baseball, the greatest game ever. Love for baseball is passed on from father to son. My love for baseball, and my love for the Cincinnati Reds, was passed down to me from my father. I was born in 1977, so I wasn't around to see the Big Red Machine, but my dad was and he said it was the greatest team he ever saw. My dad was a fan of Ken Griffey, and I have quite a few Ken Griffey baseball cards handed down to me from my father. I remember cheering at Riverfront with my dad when we were at the game that Griffey got his 1,500th National League hit. I recall being at a baseball card show as a 12 year old kid, with my father, in 1989 and buying a pack of 1989 Donruss cards, finding the Ken Griffey Jr. rated rookie card. I showed it to my dad and saw he excited he was to see that one of his favorite players' sons was now about to break into major league baseball. If you visited our house, you would find the Griffey bars in our cupboard, and hanging on my bedroom wall would be a poster that read "Griffey: the Next Generation" with Jr. and Sr. standing by their lockers. I have, and still wear Ken Griffey Jr. Seattle Mariners T-shirts. I also have a fair share of Junior Reds shirts. I watched the game when Senior joined the Mariners and the two Griffeys hit back to back homeruns. I followed Ken Griffey Jr.'s career through my entire childhood, and dreamed about what it would be like if he someday would play for my favorite team, the Cincinnati Reds. When I played a baseball videogame, the first move I would make was a trade for Junior.

In my adult life, my dream became a reality. My favorite player growing up had joined my favorite team. I remember all of the insanity surrounding Junior joining the Reds both on the cincinnati.com boards, and on this site when it was new. I am now in the seventh year of watching Ken Griffey Jr. play in a Cincinnati Reds uniform. Sure, he may have lost a step, and his body may not be in the same shape and condition that it was when he was in his twenties, but whose is? The occasional glimpses of the old Junior that we still get to see are thrilling. He's won a couple games this year with his bat. A game I was at against the Brewers, I saw him make a running catch into the wall and then come up and hit a homerun the next inning. At that game, I felt like a kid again, because I felt like I was watching the Kid again. I feel blessed to be able to someday tell my kids that I saw one of the greatest baseball players ever in Ken Griffey Jr. Just maybe, at that time, we'll be watching Trey Griffey playing outfield somewhere in the major leagues...or running back in the NFL.

Is Griffey's salary hurting the Reds? The team's record tells me that it isn't. I'm a rational person, and I see all of the budget talk and the stats and the balls that drop in the outfield, but when it comes to Ken Griffey Jr., none of that matters to me. The child baseball fan comes out and continues to adore his childhood hero regardless of how much injuries may have hurt his game. I have two desires in baseball, the first being to see the Reds win another championship, and the second to see Ken Griffey Jr. retire a Cincinnati Red.

I compare it to being a Yankee fan in the 1960's. Maybe trading Mickey Mantle in 1965 would have been the best thing for the Yankees, but how crushing would it have been for all of those fans who grew up cheering on the Mick. That is how devestating trading Ken Griffey Jr. would be to me. I would continue to be a Reds fan, and a Ken Griffey Jr. fan, it's just easier when you can cheer them both on at the same time.

shredda2000
06-05-2006, 01:45 PM
Great post Savafan!!! :clap:

westofyou
06-05-2006, 01:50 PM
I compare it to being a Yankee fan in the 1960's. Maybe trading Mickey Mantle in 1965 would have been the best thing for the Yankees,Actually trading Pepitone and playing Mantle FT at 1st would have been the "Best thing for the Yankees in 1965"

EKURed
06-05-2006, 01:59 PM
This is the key portion of the article...and it makes me say NO THANKS. And, with the Reds in the race, why would they even consider it? I choose to think positively and think they are in it for the long haul, making this discussion moot. Griffey is popular with the fans, but from what I've read and heard, he is even more popular in the clubhouse. Probably not a good idea to consider moving him...

"Griffey's whopping salary ($37 million through 2009) means the Yankees wouldn't have to give up anything of note to get him. The Reds' previous ownership rejected the Yankees' bid for Griffey last year, but the Reds have a new owner, Bob Castellini, and a new GM, Wayne Krivsky, who isn't afraid to deal if they fall out of the race."

jimbo
06-05-2006, 02:31 PM
savafan.......that post was great. I haven't been here long but I always enjoy reading your posts and that one was tops.

savafan
06-06-2006, 12:23 PM
savafan.......that post was great. I haven't been here long but I always enjoy reading your posts and that one was tops.

Thanks! Once, maybe twice a year I get pretty passionate about something on here. :)

redsfan4445
06-06-2006, 12:36 PM
This is baseball, the greatest game ever. Love for baseball is passed on from father to son. My love for baseball, and my love for the Cincinnati Reds, was passed down to me from my father. I was born in 1977, so I wasn't around to see the Big Red Machine, but my dad was and he said it was the greatest team he ever saw. My dad was a fan of Ken Griffey, and I have quite a few Ken Griffey baseball cards handed down to me from my father. I remember cheering at Riverfront with my dad when we were at the game that Griffey got his 1,500th National League hit. I recall being at a baseball card show as a 12 year old kid, with my father, in 1989 and buying a pack of 1989 Donruss cards, finding the Ken Griffey Jr. rated rookie card. I showed it to my dad and saw he excited he was to see that one of his favorite players' sons was now about to break into major league baseball. If you visited our house, you would find the Griffey bars in our cupboard, and hanging on my bedroom wall would be a poster that read "Griffey: the Next Generation" with Jr. and Sr. standing by their lockers. I have, and still wear Ken Griffey Jr. Seattle Mariners T-shirts. I also have a fair share of Junior Reds shirts. I watched the game when Senior joined the Mariners and the two Griffeys hit back to back homeruns. I followed Ken Griffey Jr.'s career through my entire childhood, and dreamed about what it would be like if he someday would play for my favorite team, the Cincinnati Reds. When I played a baseball videogame, the first move I would make was a trade for Junior.

In my adult life, my dream became a reality. My favorite player growing up had joined my favorite team. I remember all of the insanity surrounding Junior joining the Reds both on the cincinnati.com boards, and on this site when it was new. I am now in the seventh year of watching Ken Griffey Jr. play in a Cincinnati Reds uniform. Sure, he may have lost a step, and his body may not be in the same shape and condition that it was when he was in his twenties, but whose is? The occasional glimpses of the old Junior that we still get to see are thrilling. He's won a couple games this year with his bat. A game I was at against the Brewers, I saw him make a running catch into the wall and then come up and hit a homerun the next inning. At that game, I felt like a kid again, because I felt like I was watching the Kid again. I feel blessed to be able to someday tell my kids that I saw one of the greatest baseball players ever in Ken Griffey Jr. Just maybe, at that time, we'll be watching Trey Griffey playing outfield somewhere in the major leagues...or running back in the NFL.

Is Griffey's salary hurting the Reds? The team's record tells me that it isn't. I'm a rational person, and I see all of the budget talk and the stats and the balls that drop in the outfield, but when it comes to Ken Griffey Jr., none of that matters to me. The child baseball fan comes out and continues to adore his childhood hero regardless of how much injuries may have hurt his game. I have two desires in baseball, the first being to see the Reds win another championship, and the second to see Ken Griffey Jr. retire a Cincinnati Red.

I compare it to being a Yankee fan in the 1960's. Maybe trading Mickey Mantle in 1965 would have been the best thing for the Yankees, but how crushing would it have been for all of those fans who grew up cheering on the Mick. That is how devestating trading Ken Griffey Jr. would be to me. I would continue to be a Reds fan, and a Ken Griffey Jr. fan, it's just easier when you can cheer them both on at the same time.

That was a AWESOME POST SAVAFAN!!!.. i too followed Jr with the Mariners. they were my 2nd fav team behind the Reds... My dream was seeing him a Cincinnati Red and not a Atlanta Brave!.. my dream came true and i had a tear in my eye when it was announced on TV... i was like YESSSS and yes he isnt the 90s version but heck i will take him over anyone that is on our team.. Dunn shows he cant be counted on to drive runs in crucial situations and Jr is showing this team is on his back... when he got here, EVERYONE on the team was siting back waiting for JR to hit a 3run homer EVERY AB!!!! now that isnt happening.. everybody contributes but this team is a different team with JR in the lineup...And watching him last night crack the winning homer, i was hoping all these crys to trade him, would sit back and realize we have the greatest homerun hitter that DIDNT take steroids... i had a vision not to long ago.. it was JR holding the World Series throphy with tears in his eyes saying "I finally got it" and it was in a REDS uniform, not a Yankees either!!.. my dream is to see the Reds win a world series again and with JR so he can retire a Red.. I loved your Post Savafan.. i grew up and got to see the Big Red Machine... nothing will EVER replace those memories... and i am praying BOB can get us back on track to soemday be close to that, but be a consistent post season team like the Cards.. and this isnt Linders team where he being a billionaire crys poverty.. Bob wanst to WIN and WIN NOW.. Not wait for some prospects that might never pan out in 2009!!.. Thank you Sava for your post!