PDA

View Full Version : Maybe we shouldn't trade this Griffey guy



reds44
06-06-2006, 12:36 AM
vs. Washington- walk-off bomb
@ Tigers- Grand Slam in the 7th to put us up 1
tonight-3 run bomb in the 9th for the win

I am starting to think if we are realistically going to make a run at it this year, we need him on our team.

spaethc
06-06-2006, 12:38 AM
yeah I guess all the nay-sayers who think we are a better team w/o Jr can finally be quiet.

membengal
06-06-2006, 12:56 AM
yeah I guess all the nay-sayers who think we are a better team w/o Jr can finally be quiet.

I naysay with the best of them, but as long as Jr. is channeling his younger, healthier self, I am thrilled. That is what we all hoped for when he came over, the Jr. who can carry a team. Simply amazing to watch an all-time great at work.

captainmorgan07
06-06-2006, 12:56 AM
i wouldn't even think about trading him he's the face of this franchise

TOBTTReds
06-06-2006, 12:59 AM
I naysay with the best of them, but as long as Jr. is channeling his younger, healthier self, I am thrilled. That is what we all hoped for when he came over, the Jr. who can carry a team. Simply amazing to watch an all-time great at work.

Ditto. Even all the excited people right now might be naysayers in a month. You are never as good as when you are at your best...which he is displaying right now, he is healthy of course. I sure hope he continues to do so well.

MaineRed
06-06-2006, 12:59 AM
I am starting to think if we are realistically going to make a run at it this year, we need him on our team.

Get rid of the "am starting to" and I agree 100%. There are some realistic hopes of contending with Junior. IMO there are very few hopes with him sent away in a deal for prospects.

The Reds might finally have the components needed to get Junior to October. I think the Reds owe it to their fans and to Junior to just see what happens. Upgrade around Junior. He is expensive but on days like today you see why. Pretty simple really. Superstars get paid the big bucks. Griff is a superstar. The Reds only one. It's the reason he is the only one paid like it.

Trade him and we're the Brewers. Why do Red fans want to be the Brewers?

Maldez
06-06-2006, 01:00 AM
The kid can still play a little bit, eh?

NewEraReds
06-06-2006, 01:02 AM
i thought the walk was more important than clutch hitting

i kid, i kid

toledodan
06-06-2006, 01:11 AM
Trade him and we're the Brewers. Why do Red fans want to be the Brewers?



maybe because they are scappy?:D

billy117
06-06-2006, 01:11 AM
i thought the walk was more important than clutch hitting

i kid, i kid
haha
you're going to start another war.

Phhhl
06-06-2006, 01:16 AM
I defy anyone to find a post on this site where I ever advocated dealing Jr, even when he was hurt. I was glad when his 10/5 rights kicked in. He is not overpaid for what he is, which happens to be one of the greatest players ever to put on a uniform. If you didn't have a player like this, you would be looking for one. Great call!

Edd Roush
06-06-2006, 01:17 AM
Get rid of the "am starting to" and I agree 100%. There are some realistic hopes of contending with Junior. IMO there are very few hopes with him sent away in a deal for prospects.

The Reds might finally have the components needed to get Junior to October. I think the Reds owe it to their fans and to Junior to just see what happens. Upgrade around Junior. He is expensive but on days like today you see why. Pretty simple really. Superstars get paid the big bucks. Griff is a superstar. The Reds only one. It's the reason he is the only one paid like it.

Trade him and we're the Brewers. Why do Red fans want to be the Brewers?

Sorry to say MaineRed, but I completely disagree with you on this one. Ken Griffey Jr. simply can't be counted on to "be a superstar" any more. Sure, what Reds' fan doesn't enjoy Griffey doing what he does best in hitting walk-off home runs. But can you honestly say that if the Reds can trade an injury liability for a solid young SP you wouldn't do it?

I really love Kenny, it's just all too bad that he played on that Astroturf. Even the wonders of modern science can't save his legs. If he were to play the way he is now for the remainder of his contract, I could fully embrace him. But any Reds' fan knows this success won't last forever.

As the White Sox proved last year and the Braves have for the last decade, consistent success begins and ends with starting pitching.

However, if we were to end up at the trading deadline with a lead in the division or within 3 or 4 games, I would be up for keeping him. However, if we continue into a likely swoon, then I would be willing to deal him for good starting pitching.

I love Griffey, I just don't think his success can continue.

red-in-la
06-06-2006, 01:24 AM
Not just to trade JR for a pitcher, which I doubt you could do......but think of this team in 2007 and 2008 with a 12.5 million dollar a year ace heading up Arroyo, Harang and Milton.

The Reds still will score a lot of runs without JR.....and he is a defensive liability in CF, sans one or two diving catches. I am not much of a Ryan Freel fan, but he showed Reds fans the other night what RANGE in the outfield means. JR's ZR is down to statue.

I would deal JR at the drop of a hat, just to get rid of the salary so it could go to a serious FA starting pitcher either at the deadline or over the winter.

EKURed
06-06-2006, 01:32 AM
Sorry to say MaineRed, but I completely disagree with you on this one. Ken Griffey Jr. simply can't be counted on to "be a superstar" any more. Sure, what Reds' fan doesn't enjoy Griffey doing what he does best in hitting walk-off home runs. But can you honestly say that if the Reds can trade an injury liability for a solid young SP you wouldn't do it?

I really love Kenny, it's just all too bad that he played on that Astroturf. Even the wonders of modern science can't save his legs. If he were to play the way he is now for the remainder of his contract, I could fully embrace him. But any Reds' fan knows this success won't last forever.

As the White Sox proved last year and the Braves have for the last decade, consistent success begins and ends with starting pitching.

However, if we were to end up at the trading deadline with a lead in the division or within 3 or 4 games, I would be up for keeping him. However, if we continue into a likely swoon, then I would be willing to deal him for good starting pitching.

I love Griffey, I just don't think his success can continue.

The Reds don't have another player who can do what Junior did tonight and do it consistently....see Washington at GABP, Detroit in Comerica, and tonight...

If they're serious, and we all know they are, the Reds will not move Griffey. He is a presence in the lineup. The easy thing to say is that the Reds will continue to score without Junior, but without him, who do other teams legitimately fear??? It is obvious that Dunn can be pitched to. Narron said it himself, Griffey can hit a pitcher's pitch and do something with it. Griffey is the guy to anchor this lineup.

Phhhl
06-06-2006, 01:34 AM
Not just to trade JR for a pitcher, which I doubt you could do......but think of this team in 2007 and 2008 with a 12.5 million dollar a year ace heading up Arroyo, Harang and Milton.

The Reds still will score a lot of runs without JR.....and he is a defensive liability in CF, sans one or two diving catches. I am not much of a Ryan Freel fan, but he showed Reds fans the other night what RANGE in the outfield means. JR's ZR is down to statue.

I would deal JR at the drop of a hat, just to get rid of the salary so it could go to a serious FA starting pitcher either at the deadline or over the winter.

But, why can't the club do that anyway? If Jr. moves to a corner, he is still by far the best hitter on this team. There is no offensive player on this team that other pitchers concern themselves with in the ninth inning other than "that" guy. Up and down the lineup, you check them off... nobody.

We have been conditioned to believe we can't possibly afford the big offseason acquistion, that ace pitcher. But, I don't know that money is going to prevent the new ownership from making that move if they feel this team is close enough. Free agent pitchers may not want to come here, but that is a different story altogether. I don't think the 10-15 million dollar bump it may require to get a numero uno doesn't necessarily have to come at the expense of anybody who is currently part of the nucleus of this team. And, inmho, Jr. has always been the centerpiece.

Topcat
06-06-2006, 01:39 AM
Not just to trade JR for a pitcher, which I doubt you could do......but think of this team in 2007 and 2008 with a 12.5 million dollar a year ace heading up Arroyo, Harang and Milton.

The Reds still will score a lot of runs without JR.....and he is a defensive liability in CF, sans one or two diving catches. I am not much of a Ryan Freel fan, but he showed Reds fans the other night what RANGE in the outfield means. JR's ZR is down to statue.

I would deal JR at the drop of a hat, just to get rid of the salary so it could go to a serious FA starting pitcher either at the deadline or over the winter.
I advocate trading him also but for true prospects, losing his salary and signing a top pitcher would defintly advance the Reds on the road to contenders much quicker.

Jr's Boy
06-06-2006, 01:44 AM
Trade Junior,Trade Junior!:bash:

bleedsred
06-06-2006, 01:45 AM
JR won't land a top tier sp due to his salary....if Bob C. is serious about winning he will keep JR and find the cash/prospects to land a solid pitcher for a pennant drive. The Reds could make the playoffs without JR's bat, but I don't think they will be bringing home a championship without it.

bleedsred
06-06-2006, 01:49 AM
How does anyone know if Brandon Phillips, Ross, or the pitching won't return to their past norms next season? WIN now....I hate hearing about next year or the years after....the REDS are in the race THIS season.

Johnny Footstool
06-06-2006, 01:50 AM
Not just to trade JR for a pitcher, which I doubt you could do......but think of this team in 2007 and 2008 with a 12.5 million dollar a year ace heading up Arroyo, Harang and Milton.

The Reds still will score a lot of runs without JR.....and he is a defensive liability in CF, sans one or two diving catches. I am not much of a Ryan Freel fan, but he showed Reds fans the other night what RANGE in the outfield means. JR's ZR is down to statue.

I would deal JR at the drop of a hat, just to get rid of the salary so it could go to a serious FA starting pitcher either at the deadline or over the winter.

A truly worthwhile SP will go to a big-market team, regardless of the cash the Reds throw at him.

Do you think Barry Zito or Jason Schmidt would pass up a chance to pitch for the Yankees or Red Sox in favor of good old Cincinnati? I don't.

Money "saved" on Junior will disappear into the ether. Talent is the real commodity the Reds need to be looking for.

jimbo
06-06-2006, 01:55 AM
Wow, it is mind boggling that some fans still think that trading Junior is what's best for the team.......just amazing.

StRedlegs900
06-06-2006, 01:58 AM
I'm pretty new to this site still, but I figured I would add in my 2 cents. I don't understand why everyone assumes that if we unloaded Griffey's salary, then we could land a top-tier free agent pitcher. If you ask me, the only way we get an ace pitcher is to trade for one or develop one.

With Griff's 12 million off the books or not, we still have to compete with the Yankees and Red Sox of the world in order to aquire starting pitching. They will always have more revenue, and will always have a much larger payroll. That, coupled with GABP's reputation as a hitter's park will most likely be enough to drive the ace pitchers away. We couldn't even land Morris this past offseason for almost 8 million a year i think(I'm not sure how much we offered...)?

The point is, if we are going to bring in free agents, we're going to need to start winning, and bringing in fans. Trading away Griffey will put a serious dent into the offense, and will also discourage fans from coming. Like him or not, the guy puts fans in the seats, including myself. There's nothing better than seeing Griff come up with a chance to win the game in the 9th, and wondering about the possiblities. You trade away that mystique, and I think you trade away our chances to contend this season. That's just me, though.

WVRedsFan
06-06-2006, 02:07 AM
Not just to trade JR for a pitcher, which I doubt you could do......but think of this team in 2007 and 2008 with a 12.5 million dollar a year ace heading up Arroyo, Harang and Milton.

The Reds still will score a lot of runs without JR.....and he is a defensive liability in CF, sans one or two diving catches. I am not much of a Ryan Freel fan, but he showed Reds fans the other night what RANGE in the outfield means. JR's ZR is down to statue.

I would deal JR at the drop of a hat, just to get rid of the salary so it could go to a serious FA starting pitcher either at the deadline or over the winter.

First of all, it ain't gonna happen. Pitching is what we need (that's obvious), but a #1 starter for Junior is a pipe dream. The WayneK's and BobC's of the world don't pay $12.5 million for a starting pitcher.

Baseball, among other things is entertainment. Junior is entertainment. The diving catches and the game winning HR's are more entertainment than the "scrappy" Freels and Denorfia's of the world. Would we win with a #1 starter? I have my doubts. You'd then have to address a first base void, an outfield void and a bullpen void. You're talking $20 million and that ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. We could get lucky and win the whole thing, but it won't happen without Junior. Who else is feared by the opposition like Junior on this team? Nobody. They respect Dunn, but they don't fear him. The Reds' day is five years away if Wayne and Bob do the little things to develop a team like the Pale Hose. In the meantime, trading Griffey will give us more hard times with more Q. McCracken's and Rick White's. Oh, joy.

Nugget
06-06-2006, 02:38 AM
Not just to trade JR for a pitcher, which I doubt you could do......but think of this team in 2007 and 2008 with a 12.5 million dollar a year ace heading up Arroyo, Harang and Milton.

The Reds still will score a lot of runs without JR.....and he is a defensive liability in CF, sans one or two diving catches. I am not much of a Ryan Freel fan, but he showed Reds fans the other night what RANGE in the outfield means. JR's ZR is down to statue.

I would deal JR at the drop of a hat, just to get rid of the salary so it could go to a serious FA starting pitcher either at the deadline or over the winter.

:deadhorse

Once again, Junior's salary does not account for $12.5 mil in 2007 and 2008. He is contracted to receive $12.5, but has deferred just over half that amount interest free. This means that the actual amount that is required to be accounted for by the REDS is about $8 mil. Accordingly, the money saved my just get you a frontline starter that the Yankees reject. And as Milton has shown a Yankee reject does not necessarily a #1 pitcher make.

Also as anecdotal evidence would suggest (I'll leave the stats to Steel and Cyclone) Junior has had the ability to score runs in crucial situations and has benefited the other hitters in the line up as for some reason teams still respect him even if REDSZONE doesn't.

KronoRed
06-06-2006, 02:48 AM
But, the Reds are putting the full amount away and have been since the deal started, the deferred part is irrelevant.

On the other hand, our best chance for good pitchers is trades, we won't get FA in here till we start winning, or we'll get more Milton's.

Nugget
06-06-2006, 02:55 AM
If they're putting the whole amount away then someone needs to have a word to John Allen. They should only need to account for the present value of the deferred amount. It may have been that he was deferring less at the start which may have meant that the difference was negligible (between the accounted amount and the contract amount) but I think it was in about the second year he started deferring about half the salary amount which make the difference more noticeable.

KronoRed
06-06-2006, 03:00 AM
Eh I don't really blame them, they didn't want to be on the hook for the contract until almost 2020

TeamBoone
06-06-2006, 03:17 AM
Not just to trade JR for a pitcher, which I doubt you could do......but think of this team in 2007 and 2008 with a 12.5 million dollar a year ace heading up Arroyo, Harang and Milton.

The Reds still will score a lot of runs without JR.....and he is a defensive liability in CF, sans one or two diving catches. I am not much of a Ryan Freel fan, but he showed Reds fans the other night what RANGE in the outfield means. JR's ZR is down to statue.

I would deal JR at the drop of a hat, just to get rid of the salary so it could go to a serious FA starting pitcher either at the deadline or over the winter.

The first paragraph was good.

The second, not so good. Maybe Griffey's lost a step or two in CF, but he certainly is not a defensive LIABILITY.

And I haven't heard anyone in management using salary as an excuse this year. Actually, I'm not sure we've even heard salary mentioned at all.

TeamBoone
06-06-2006, 03:20 AM
If the Reds truly are continuously putting away the deferred salary, doesn't that defeat the purpose of Jr deferring the salary in the first place?

They might as well just pay him.

KronoRed
06-06-2006, 03:22 AM
If the Reds truly are continuously putting away the deferred salary, doesn't that defeat the purpose of Jr deferring the salary in the first place?

Yep, now of course that was the way the old guys did it, but I doubt the new guys stopped, it's a smart way to do it.

Cicero
06-06-2006, 03:23 AM
They are definitley not paying the whole amount each year. When you defer a salary you actually purchase a life insurance policy (probably an annuity) that generates cash value over a certain period of time with the goal of having a set cash value at a set time. The Reds are paying on the policy obviously, but it would not be the full amount each year as the policy would gain interest very quickly. I set up a policy like this last month for a company in Toledo Ohio. They company was paying about half of the amount per year for the first several years then a quarter and finally nothing because the policy accumulation rate eventually overcomes the payment schedule.

KronoRed
06-06-2006, 03:25 AM
Maybe that is how they are doing, I'm just going off an Allen interview either JR's 2nd or 3rd year where he said JR was couting the full 12.5 on the payroll because they were putting it away :dunno:

Cicero
06-06-2006, 03:29 AM
Maybe that is how they are doing, I'm just going off an Allen interview either JR's 2nd or 3rd year where he said JR was couting the full 12.5 on the payroll because they were putting it away :dunno:

It could be that way, depending on the payment schedule but highly unlikely. Before this season I didn't put much stock in what the front office said, but I could be wrong. I just wish I could have been the agent that wrote that policy. The commission would set you up for life.

NDRed
06-06-2006, 04:02 AM
A truly worthwhile SP will go to a big-market team, regardless of the cash the Reds throw at him.

Do you think Barry Zito or Jason Schmidt would pass up a chance to pitch for the Yankees or Red Sox in favor of good old Cincinnati? I don't.

Money "saved" on Junior will disappear into the ether. Talent is the real commodity the Reds need to be looking for.

I don't agree. How many "bidding wars" do we actually see?...almost none. If we offer more than the other team we will almost always get the player. If they wanted to become multi-millionaires and pick their comfert level team them would not be free agents; they would resign. Its not like Zito or Schmidt will be non-tendered by their current teams.

Almost all free agents are looking for the biggest paycheck they can get. Who writes that check is not a big factor.

Nugget
06-06-2006, 04:02 AM
I think Allen needs to go and see a CPA. Other than that it may just prove that he can't run the operations side either.

That Allen interview was about the same time Junior agreed to defer his salary so that the REDS could have more payroll flexibility. I think this was about the same time the REDS signed Dante Bichette.

redsfan4445
06-06-2006, 07:27 AM
Sorry to say MaineRed, but I completely disagree with you on this one. Ken Griffey Jr. simply can't be counted on to "be a superstar" any more. Sure, what Reds' fan doesn't enjoy Griffey doing what he does best in hitting walk-off home runs. But can you honestly say that if the Reds can trade an injury liability for a solid young SP you wouldn't do it?

I really love Kenny, it's just all too bad that he played on that Astroturf. Even the wonders of modern science can't save his legs. If he were to play the way he is now for the remainder of his contract, I could fully embrace him. But any Reds' fan knows this success won't last forever.

As the White Sox proved last year and the Braves have for the last decade, consistent success begins and ends with starting pitching.

However, if we were to end up at the trading deadline with a lead in the division or within 3 or 4 games, I would be up for keeping him. However, if we continue into a likely swoon, then I would be willing to deal him for good starting pitching.

I love Griffey, I just don't think his success can continue.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I would NOT pitch to Griffey in any run producing situation and I WOULD pitch to Dunn... He is healthy and leading this team.. He wants to WIN a World Series with the REDS.. not anyone else..and we are on a roll. You DONT trade him as that would ruin the teams excitement at contending..

EKURed
06-06-2006, 08:27 AM
You know why the Reds shouldn't and won't trade Griffey....it's because of what he does for this team and because of what the most important people (the players and staff in the clubhouse) think of him. Take a look at this small sample today from Hal McCoy's game report in the Dayton Daily News....

It didn't surprise Lopez, standing on third base when Griffey connected.

"Surprised? No, never," said Lopez. "I expect that from him. He's that kind of a hitter. I knew when he got his pitch to hit he would do something like that."

Said manager Jerry Narron, "Griff is Griff, what other can I say but that? We gave up five runs with two outs and that hurt us, but Griff's big night carried us. I love writing his name on the lineup card."

Of Griffey's eight-pitch at-bat before the game-winning homer, Narron said, "He is the one guy we have who has a chance to hit outstanding pitching, no matter who it is. That's not to take anything away from anybody on our club, but he has always has been able to hit good pitching, no matter who it is and he is still able to do it.

"That is what has made him one of the best players in the game. He gets his numbers off everybody," Narron added.

Redhook
06-06-2006, 08:59 AM
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I would NOT pitch to Griffey in any run producing situation and I WOULD pitch to Dunn... He is healthy and leading this team.. He wants to WIN a World Series with the REDS.. not anyone else..and we are on a roll. You DONT trade him as that would ruin the teams excitement at contending..

I agree. Why in the world did LaRussa let Izzy pitch to Griffey last night with first base open after the wild pitch? What a bad move, but great for us!!

Krusty
06-06-2006, 09:09 AM
I just wish Adam Dunn would develop into the clutch hitter that Ken Griffey, Jr is.:(

With that said, as long as the Reds are in contention any chance of the Reds dealing either Junior or Dunn won't come till the offseason.

EKURed
06-06-2006, 09:39 AM
I guess most everybody on here realizes Griffey has more RBIs than games played this year. Pretty impressive stuff.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4305

RedLegSuperStar
06-06-2006, 09:46 AM
Griffey has the say so if he gets traded or not. He demanded a trade to Cincinnati to play for his hometown team and finish his career here. I just don't see him wearing anything but Red. This team is motivated and heading into the right direction.

fourrunhomer
06-06-2006, 10:01 AM
Not just to trade JR for a pitcher, which I doubt you could do......but think of this team in 2007 and 2008 with a 12.5 million dollar a year ace heading up Arroyo, Harang and Milton.

The Reds still will score a lot of runs without JR.....and he is a defensive liability in CF, sans one or two diving catches. I am not much of a Ryan Freel fan, but he showed Reds fans the other night what RANGE in the outfield means. JR's ZR is down to statue.

I would deal JR at the drop of a hat, just to get rid of the salary so it could go to a serious FA starting pitcher either at the deadline or over the winter.



Anyone who says that Griffey is a liability in CF must not be watching him play. By the way, other than Clemens this past week, when did you ever see a serious FA starting pitcher or any other position at the deadline?

edabbs44
06-06-2006, 10:04 AM
The Reds don't have another player who can do what Junior did tonight and do it consistently....see Washington at GABP, Detroit in Comerica, and tonight...

If they're serious, and we all know they are, the Reds will not move Griffey. He is a presence in the lineup. The easy thing to say is that the Reds will continue to score without Junior, but without him, who do other teams legitimately fear??? It is obvious that Dunn can be pitched to. Narron said it himself, Griffey can hit a pitcher's pitch and do something with it. Griffey is the guy to anchor this lineup.
But if we had better pitching, we wouldn't have needed Jr's heroics last night. I love watching Jr play, but if we could deal him to help other shortcomings of the team (hint: they play on a mound) I would be for it. But only if it is legitimate help and of the youthful variety.

registerthis
06-06-2006, 10:10 AM
The second, not so good. Maybe Griffey's lost a step or two in CF, but he certainly is not a defensive LIABILITY.

If he's not, he's close. There's an ongoing thread about Reds defense that addresses the issue. In short, when controlling for all other factors, BABIP and RS increases when Junior is in CF than when he is not. Granted, it's a small sample size, but last year he was among the worst everyday CFers in the league, so I don't think it's an anomaly.

registerthis
06-06-2006, 10:12 AM
Anyone who says that Griffey is a liability in CF must not be watching him play.

I've watched him play all of this season--al of last season, too. I've seen the diving catches, and they're very impressive. They're also catches he likely would have made with much less fanfare ten years ago.

lollipopcurve
06-06-2006, 10:13 AM
At this point, there's no player I enjoy watching succeed more than Griffey. He is one of the greatest players of all time who is aging with courage, a love for the game, and a long unfed hope for a championship. Plus, I think he's a superb role model for the young talent on the club.

Reds Freak
06-06-2006, 10:20 AM
Going along with lollipop, whether you think the Reds should trade Griffey or not, I think we should take a step back and realize what a special player is playing for the Cincinnati Reds right now. I don't know if we take it for granted, complaining about his defense or his lack of hustle but this is the type of player that young kids will tell their grandchildren about years down the road and he plays for the Reds. That's pretty cool.

ThatPitchIsDunn
06-06-2006, 10:20 AM
If we're all concerned about moving some money to make more room to offer to FA pitching, LaRue's nearly 4 mil a year seems to be a little glaring with Mister Ross's development as of late....

registerthis
06-06-2006, 10:26 AM
At this point, there's no player I enjoy watching succeed more than Griffey. He is one of the greatest players of all time who is aging with courage, a love for the game, and a long unfed hope for a championship. Plus, I think he's a superb role model for the young talent on the club.

Completely agree with this. I'm not pining for him to be traded, I enjoy watching him as a Red as much as anyone. He truly is one of the "good ones."

Johnny Footstool
06-06-2006, 10:47 AM
I don't agree. How many "bidding wars" do we actually see?...almost none. If we offer more than the other team we will almost always get the player. If they wanted to become multi-millionaires and pick their comfert level team them would not be free agents; they would resign. Its not like Zito or Schmidt will be non-tendered by their current teams.

Almost all free agents are looking for the biggest paycheck they can get. Who writes that check is not a big factor.

No bidding wars? Every decent free agent that signs is involved in a bidding war of some kind.

The Yankees drive up the price of every desirable free agent on the market. The Red Sox tend to do the same.

The Reds threw the same amount of money at Matt Clement as the Red Sox, and Clement said, "No, thank you."

The Reds are at the end of the buffet line when it comes to free agents. The prime rib is already gone when the Reds fill their plate -- they're stuck with salisbury steak and buttered noodles like Eric Milton, Scott Hatteberg, Rich Aurilia, etc.

EKURed
06-06-2006, 11:02 AM
But if we had better pitching, we wouldn't have needed Jr's heroics last night. I love watching Jr play, but if we could deal him to help other shortcomings of the team (hint: they play on a mound) I would be for it. But only if it is legitimate help and of the youthful variety.

What I tell you is that, over the long haul, the Reds will struggle to score runs without Junior's presence in the lineup. So, by strengthening the pitching staff (which is purely conjecture on your part that it can even be done), you severely limit the offense. OK...since offense is so easy to produce, somebody come up with a legitimate #3 hitter on the Reds besides Junior????

Redhook
06-06-2006, 11:15 AM
What I tell you is that, over the long haul, the Reds will struggle to score runs without Junior's presence in the lineup. So, by strengthening the pitching staff (which is purely conjecture on your part that it can even be done), you severely limit the offense. OK...since offense is so easy to produce, somebody come up with a legitimate #3 hitter on the Reds besides Junior????

Felipe Lopez. I think he'd be a great #3 hitter. He's versatile. He has pretty good power. Good average. I think his RBI total would be much higher than it currently is (22) if he wasn't leading off so much. He's a better hitter with runners on (OPS .829) vs. bases empty (OPS .748).

I don't want Junior traded. We need him badly in this offense. I'd love to see him bat 4th though. He's our best RBI guy and I believe he'd have more guys to drive in batting 4th rather than 3rd. I'd love our lineup to be:

Phillips/Freel
Aurilia/Hatteberg - neither should be batting 4th-6th
Lopez
Griffey
Dunn
Kearns
Eddy
Catcher

KoryMac5
06-06-2006, 01:27 PM
I do not like this lineup without JR in their to drive people home. Kearns is starting to produce with runners on base, Edwin is still developing. Griffey is our number 1 guy with runners on base. I'd much rather be winning 6-4 8-7 games than losing 2-1 3-2 games. Remember when the offense struggled not to long ago many of us were pulling our hair out trying to figure out how to right this ship. The answer is a healthy JR in the lineup.

jimbo
06-06-2006, 02:25 PM
This is getting comical. Trading your best player, and those who say Junior isn't the Reds best player should watch some more games, when you are two games out of first is seriously irresponsible and this management will never allow it to happen. There isn't a player on this team that brings half of what Junior brings to the lineup.

Who else on this team would you want at the plate last night in a situation like what Junior was in when he hit his 3-run home to take the lead in the 9th? In my eyes, it's not even debatable.......Junior is the guy. Lopez? Nice hitter and great player, but he is not even close to Junior and cannot put up the home runs and rbis in the 3-hole that Griffey can. If Junior was not on the this team, the Reds would be 4 games out instead of 2 right now.

registerthis
06-06-2006, 03:13 PM
This is getting comical. Trading your best player,

It's not comical, it's about doing what's best for the team. I agree, trading Junior now would be a bad idea--and I doubt he'd approve a trade anyway. But the notion of trading him carries a lot of weight, particularly when you consider his injury history and his diminishing defensive skills. (I don't think the salary issue isas big an issue as it once was.)


and those who say Junior isn't the Reds best player should watch some more games,

Snide comments like this are what drags discussions down. I have extra innings and watch close to every game, I know many others on here do as well. It's not a question of "not watching games." Griffey is playing very well right now, I hope that he can keep it up. But I don't consider him to be the Reds best player, for a number of reasons--durability, defense, speed, plate discipline, etc. So you can knock off the "I'm watch more games than you" nonsense.


when you are two games out of first is seriously irresponsible and this management will never allow it to happen. There isn't a player on this team that brings half of what Junior brings to the lineup.

Let me guess--you can't back it up with statistics, but it's just "common sense" right?


Who else on this team would you want at the plate last night in a situation like what Junior was in when he hit his 3-run home to take the lead in the 9th?

In that situation, probably Junior. But that was far from the only situation the Reds had the opportunity to score runs last night. As exciting as Junior's HR was, personally I'd have preferred it if Rick White hadn't given up a 2 run home run that forced the Reds to rely on a Griffey bomb to begin with--but that's just me.


In my eyes, it's not even debatable.

Well that's part of the problem, then.


If Junior was not on the this team, the Reds would be 4 games out instead of 2 right now.

Really? What if we'd had a more durable CFer who hadn't missed a month due to injury? What if we had a better defensive CFer who could run down many of the balls that are dropping for singles and doubles now? Your statement is completely subjective.

jimbo
06-06-2006, 03:20 PM
Your statement is completely subjective.

So what if my statements are subjective. I don't have the time or want to search for stats to back every comment I make on here.

My apologies if my comments were "snide" in your eyes. That seems like a pretty subjective statement itself. Your response reeked of snideness, maybe you should practice what you preach.

registerthis
06-06-2006, 03:28 PM
So what if my statements are subjective. I don't have the time or want to search for stats to back every comment I make on here.

If you don't want to take the time to support your statements, that's fine. But don't be surprised when you get challenged on something.


My apologies if my comments were "snide" in your eyes. That seems like a pretty subjective statement itself. Your response reeked of snideness, maybe you should practice what you preach.

Insenuating that someone who does not feel as you do must not be as big a fan as you, or watch as many games as you, is a snide remark. There was nothing personal in my response to you, other than a request to leave those types of comments out of your responses.

smith288
06-06-2006, 03:40 PM
No to trading Griffey.

One of the BEST ever to play the game and there is people salivating on ridding him for nothing because of $$. What we need to do is rid ourselves of the riff raff that has bound our budget more like LaRue's and Casey (taken care of) and Miltons. People who arent performing for the amount they are getting paid for and ARENT first ballot HOF'rs.

Money is a part of it but Griffey goes beyond money. If I could pay 12 million a year to watch Babe Ruth play on our team, i do it. That is Griffey's status in my book. Not Sosa-level or Giambi-level...Ruth-level legendom.

griffeyfreak4
06-06-2006, 03:44 PM
Griffey is an extremely important component to this team winning right now, and right now trading him would not improve our team. We wouldn't get much pitching for Griff, and we need his bat in our lineup. With Dunn batting behind him, Griffey is getting loads of pitches to hit, and he is producing magnificently right now. Besides, I don't think he would accept any trades with Cincy in the race.

EKURed
06-06-2006, 03:46 PM
Who else on this team would you want at the plate last night in a situation like what Junior was in when he hit his 3-run home to take the lead in the 9th?.

EXACTLY. That is the main point. Who else on this team right now can do what Junior did last night? I was watching the game, but I set my DVR to record when Junior came up because I have confidence in him to really produce something big in that situation...just so I could watch it again and again if something great happened, which it most certainly did. To be honest, the thought would have never crossed my mind if anyone else on this team was walking to the plate...

BCubb2003
06-06-2006, 03:52 PM
This is one of those times when the sun is shining and there's no need to fix the roof. Then the rain will come again and we'll wish we had fixed the roof.

The trouble is, for some reason, you can't trade Griffey for the Griffey of pitchers.

jimbo
06-06-2006, 04:31 PM
Insenuating that someone who does not feel as you do must not be as big a fan as you, or watch as many games as you, is a snide remark. There was nothing personal in my response to you, other than a request to leave those types of comments out of your responses.

You are correct.....and I apologize. When I read back my post I could see where that statement was harsh.

I did not realize that saying Junior brings more to the lineup than any other Reds players had to be backed up my statistics, I think it is obvious.

Your response may not have been personal, but it was very condescending in nature whether it was intended or not.

registerthis
06-06-2006, 04:48 PM
You are correct.....and I apologize. When I read back my post I could see where that statement was harsh.

No problem, thanks. And my response was not meant to be condescending, only trying to put a different perspective on the Junior situation.

I love Junior, and I love the fact that he is doing well right now. I literally jumped out of my chair when he hit the 9th inning bomb last night. But, sooner or later, Junior won't be quite as "dialed-in" as he is now--the HRs will turn into harmless fly balls. And then people will commence with the "we should have traded him when he was hot" comments.

I'm not advocating for a trade now, only saying that the reds would be foolish not to consider it if the right opportunity presented itself. I'd like to see Junior retire as a Red, with over 600 bombs and a WS title. But if he doesn't, I'm fine with that, too--provided his exit presents a benefit to the club.

jimbo
06-06-2006, 05:11 PM
I love Junior, and I love the fact that he is doing well right now. I literally jumped out of my chair when he hit the 9th inning bomb last night. But, sooner or later, Junior won't be quite as "dialed-in" as he is now--the HRs will turn into harmless fly balls. And then people will commence with the "we should have traded him when he was hot" comments.

I'm not advocating for a trade now, only saying that the reds would be foolish not to consider it if the right opportunity presented itself. I'd like to see Junior retire as a Red, with over 600 bombs and a WS title. But if he doesn't, I'm fine with that, too--provided his exit presents a benefit to the club.

I woke up my whole neighborhood last night when Junior hit that home run.

Eventually, he will start losing his hitting ability, but I think he is still a year or two away from that. Right now, he is still getting the job done. Of course we all know the key is keeping him healthy. I said at the beginning of the season that I'd be happy to get 120-130 games out of him. If he can help this team get to the playoffs, then I can accept the 30-40 games the team will have without him. I believe that with the knee injury he had, if it would have been September and the team contending he would have been playing. Also, if the team would have been in the playoff hunt last September I still believe that he would have played on.

I think part of my problem as why I get testy with this topic is that I want so bad for Junior to win a championship with the Reds because that is about the only accomplishment he hasn't reached yet in his career. Having said that though, I still feel I could overlook that if it's best for the team trading him. I just think that time hasn't come yet.

Also, we have to keep in mind that Junior has to approve any trade and I can't see him doing so when this team is contending for the playoffs. I stand by the thinking that it would send the wrong signal to the team and the majority of the fans.