PDA

View Full Version : Shawn Estes



alloverjr
08-15-2002, 04:52 PM
Buddy of mine just called giving me crap that we just traded for Estes. Haven't seen anything on the board. Is he pulling my leg or is this just a non-event?

Raisor
08-15-2002, 04:58 PM
Yep, looks like it's real.

ESPNEWS is reporting that it's Estes and cash for two minor leaguers (didn't say who) and two players to be named later.

PSR

Redny
08-15-2002, 04:58 PM
It's true: http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0815/1418421.html

gm
08-15-2002, 04:59 PM
It's true, according to cbs

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/transactions

Acquired pitcher Shawn Estes and cash from the New York Mets for pitcher Pedro Feliciano, outfielder Elvin Andujar and two players to be named.

I wonder if Rijo's still starting on Saturday? (The way I figure it, Estes was originally scheduled to start for the Mets tonight)

Raisor
08-15-2002, 05:01 PM
OK, now the question is, how fast will it take the people that called Estes "soft" and "gutless" a month ago to now jump on the Shawn Estes bandwagon?

PSR

Redny
08-15-2002, 05:02 PM
This may take care of having a "bullpen day" on Saturday. Rijo's start is probably history. I wonder who goes away?

creek14
08-15-2002, 05:02 PM
Shawn Estes
#55 | Starting Pitcher | New York Mets | Roster
Height: 6-2 Weight: 200 Throws: Left Bats: Right Born: February 18, 1973, San Bernardino, CA

Profile | Statistics | Splits | Game Log | Batter vs. Pitcher | Auctions

Through August 10, 2002

STATS G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L Sv P/GS BAA ERA
2002 23 23 1 1 132.2 133 70 67 12 66 92 4 9 0 95.0 .267 4.55
Projected 31 31 1 1 180.3 181 95 91 16 90 125 5 12 0 95.0 .267 4.55
Career 183 183 10 7 1122.2 1078 581 535 86 587 887 68 59 0 101.8 .257 4.29
Current stats updated real-time, Career stats updated nightly.

RECENT GAMESDATE OPP RESULT IP H R ER HR BB SO GB FB PIT GSc DEC REL ERA*
Jul. 18 @Mon L 2-1 6.0 6 1 1 1 1 1 6 12 74 56 -- -- 4.89
Jul. 24 Mon L 2-1 7.0 7 2 2 1 0 5 11 8 101 60 L(3-8) -- 4.75
Jul. 31 Hou W 10-0 7.0 2 0 0 0 3 2 12 3 108 72 W(4-8) -- 4.48
Aug. 5 Ari L 2-0 7.0 4 2 2 1 2 5 14 5 113 64 L(4-9) -- 4.37
Aug. 10 @StL L 5-4 3.0 2 4 4 1 5 2 3 6 59 36 -- -- 4.55

GoReds
08-15-2002, 05:03 PM
Nice to make a trade - should have been done a month ago to see some benefit, IMHO.

Nice to have a lefty going into the Cards series, though.

Red Leader
08-15-2002, 05:05 PM
Does anyone know who these prospects are?? What team did they play for? Are they legit prospects? I don't think I have ever heard of them before and usually I at least recognize names of Reds prospects/minor leaguers. Feliciano and Andujar? Also, that is 4 PTBNL the Reds owe. 2 from the Moehler acquisition and now 2 for Estes. Doesn't Estes become a FA at the end of the year??

RANDY IN INDY
08-15-2002, 05:06 PM
Those recent stats look just wonderful.:rolleyes:

I hope we don't give up too much for those statistics. I guess Estes is not that far removed from a little success. When you're the Reds, I guess you take what you can get. I hope he comes in and turns it around. Anyone know what kind of money he makes?

BuckeyeRed27
08-15-2002, 05:07 PM
WOW...this is awesome. Great move Jim Bowden is all I can say. The Reds appear to be sliding out of it and he goes out there and picks up a great pitcher for us. I love this.

Redny
08-15-2002, 05:07 PM
Estes was scheduled to go Friday against LA.

RANDY IN INDY
08-15-2002, 05:09 PM
I'll give it to Bowden. He's trying with what he has to work with.

I hope we don't need Estes to bean anyone. He sure didn't handle the job when Clemens needed to be "dusted".;)

Redny
08-15-2002, 05:10 PM
How long is he signed for?

Raisor
08-15-2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by BuckeyeRed27
WOW...this is awesome. Great move Jim Bowden is all I can say. The Reds appear to be sliding out of it and he goes out there and picks up a great pitcher for us. I love this.


Estes hasn't approached "great" since 1997. He was pretty good last year (low 4 era), and nothing special this year.

PSR

redhead
08-15-2002, 05:13 PM
Another California guy, how cool, Aaron just got a new best friend. :lol: and the club house just got a lot better looking. Seriously, Shawn has great potential *there's that word again*. Maybe the change to Cincy is just what he needs to get things turned around.

Redny
08-15-2002, 05:14 PM
I just read that he is a free agent at the end of the year. Also, what signal does this send to the Mets fans and players? I guess they have given up.

cincinnati chili
08-15-2002, 05:17 PM
Estes will be a free agent after this season:

http://msn.espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0815/1418421.html

The Mets are paying ALL of his salary.

On the one hand, temper your enthusiasm. Pac Bell and Shea are two of the best pitchers parks in the major leagues, and he's been mediocre there.

On the other hand, I know nothing about these prospects, and commend Bowden for trying.

Note: He LOVES to walk batters. Be patient. He'll drive some of you crazy.

bucksfan
08-15-2002, 05:17 PM
http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/5611041

letsgojunior
08-15-2002, 05:19 PM
According to a contract site, Estes has a one year deal for $6.2 million plus incentives. Obviously the Mets must have paid the rest of his salary.

I was one of the people who said Estes had no guts. However, he has always had major POTENTIAL, he has just never harnessed it. However, I think a few sessions with Gully could go a long way with a guy like him. If he gets it together I will be the first person to call myself an idiot.

Yet another good trade by Jimbo. For all the people bashing him about never acquiring pitching, he has gotten Dempster, Estes, and Moehler at the cost of Dmitri Young, Espy, Wilton Guerrero, Ryan Snare, and two mid to low level minor leaguers. That is damn good trading. Pretty soon I will have to start a 'Jimbo is the man' thread.

Remember, even if Estes only stays the rest of this year, we will have him against the Cards, who really struggle against lefty pitching.

Raisor
08-15-2002, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Redny
I just read that he is a free agent at the end of the year. Also, what signal does this send to the Mets fans and players? I guess they have given up.


well, they ARE 20 1/2 games out in the division, and nine out in the wildcard.

PSR

Virginia Beach Reds
08-15-2002, 05:22 PM
I've never even heard of these prospects. Seems like a good deal and we don't even have to pay this guy. Estes isn't bad...I'll give him a chance.

gm
08-15-2002, 05:24 PM
"I wonder who goes away?" (to make room for Estes)

I'm guessing Reidling gets DL'ed. But it wouldn't surprise me if Larson is deemed "expendable" or the FO says "Brandon needs regular at bats at Louisville" etc

"Andujar, who was batting .286 with five homers and 20 RBI for Billings of the rookie Pioneer League. Andujar, 21, will report to Class-A Brooklyn."

Talk about your drastic changes of scenery/culture

guernsey
08-15-2002, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Raisor
OK, now the question is, how fast will it take the people that called Estes "soft" and "gutless" a month ago to now jump on the Shawn Estes bandwagon?

PSR

He's still soft and gutless, and the Reds are too far back for this to make any difference.

EricDavis
08-15-2002, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by gm
"I wonder who goes away?" (to make room for Estes)

I'm guessing Reidling gets DL'ed. But it wouldn't surprise me if Larson is deemed "expendable" or the FO says "Brandon needs regular at bats at Louisville" etc



I doubt they would send down Larson to make room for Estes. I expect the DL for Reidling, Sullivan or White or option Fernandez back to AAA.

Red Leader
08-15-2002, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by guernsey


He's still soft and gutless, and the Reds are too far back for this to make any difference.

I agree with you, guernsey, although I do have to give ole' JimBo some credit for not giving up. If the Reds fall short of the wildcard by 2 games and Dempster, Estes, and Moehler go winless for the rest of the season, the last person you can blame is Jim Bowden. OTOH, if the Reds miraculously win the wild card, Jim Bowden should get most if not all the credit.

BuckeyeRed27
08-15-2002, 05:29 PM
Man this is a tough crowd to please. We need a left handed starter very badly and we aquire an above average one for a small bag of peanuts and a water bottle that you purchase outside the stadium for less than it costs inside the stadium and everyone is less than impressed. Well I've already and said it and I'll say it again: Great move Jimbo.

LvJ
08-15-2002, 05:33 PM
This is great news IMO. Lefty which we needed badly, and Estes has good stuff, he just needs to find it again .. hell Mr Gullett!

Woooooooooooo!

TRF
08-15-2002, 05:34 PM
what the hell?

Reitsma has two quality starts for Louisville. Acevedo (who I think should stay in AAA for the rest of the season) has pitchedvery well in his last 5-6 starts, and we get this BP pitcher. Dusty Baker ruined this guy's arm 5 years ago. We don't need anymore Joey Hamiltons.

Estes = Blech.

CrackerJack
08-15-2002, 05:36 PM
Yes the Mets are paying the rest of his salary according to Bowden on his show on 700 today.

Raisor
08-15-2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by BuckeyeRed27
Man this is a tough crowd to please. We need a left handed starter very badly and we aquire an above average one for a small bag of peanuts and a water bottle that you purchase outside the stadium for less than it costs inside the stadium and everyone is less than impressed. Well I've already and said it and I'll say it again: Great move Jimbo.

ten minutes ago he was "a great starter" now he's "above average"

I hate to see what he'll be in an hour!

;)

Anyway, I'd rather the Reds just start Chen then this goof.

Hope he proves me wrong (he is a former Mariner afterall)

PSR

Catch22
08-15-2002, 05:41 PM
Does anyone else think that the Mets letting go of Estes so easily had something to do with the big Yankees bean-ball fiasco a while back? I remember hearing at the time that he may have lost alot of respect from his teammates because of his non-bean ball. Could it be the case? The obvious points to the Mets trying to dump him while they can still get something for him, but I suspect there was something else to it.

Anyhow - good pick up by Bowden. Even if it is only for the rest of the season.

creek14
08-15-2002, 05:47 PM
Catch,

As Chris's second biggest fan on this board, I am not too happy about what this trade means for the possibility of seeing him back with the Reds any time soon. :(

VR
08-15-2002, 05:52 PM
Two thoughts -

In response to Estes being soft - he's still a softy, he's just OUR softy now ;)

In regards to Chen - is it just me, or is his situation becoming more and more similiar to Reyes' while he was a Red?

LvJ
08-15-2002, 05:52 PM
Estes last 5 games:

He is 1-2, but thats because the Mets sucks.

6 IP, 7 IP, 7 IP, 7 IP, 7 IP, 3 IP

In all of those games, his highest hit total was 7 .. very good.

The 3 IP game was short because he walked 5, and gave up 1 grand slam, but other than that - it pitched well.

He can help us down the stretch, hey - atleast the management is trying to win .. thats 1 for 2, now lets see if the players try.

NorCalRedsFan
08-15-2002, 05:56 PM
Great move by Bowden. I like this move. I have followed the Giants awhile and firmly believe the Giants gave up on him.

He is young (he's 29 yrs old). And sometimes it takes awhile for someone like him to gain consistency in their game. Gullett is probably the only one who can teach him this.

If anything, in the last several months we have added some good people to our pitching staff (Dempster, Moehler, and Chen) and now Estes.

Bowden is cleverly building this team up for a late run for this year and..... gearing up next year and beyond.

Go Reds!!!



:)
:beerme:

PuffyPig
08-15-2002, 05:57 PM
Well, he has a 2.70 ERA in his last 5 starts. He's an experienced starter, and could certainly pitch well down the stretch. He's a lefty to boot. The fact we gave up 4 prospects probably means none were to highly regarded (quantity over quality). Good job Bowden, again.

top6
08-15-2002, 05:59 PM
It's possible that the Mets had an agreement worked out to trade Estes w/ someone else and the Reds claimed him on waivers. If that was the case, the Mets could either keep him and get nothing for him or pay his salary and give him to the Reds, but still get something in return.

Steve4192
08-15-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by letsgojunior
I was one of the people who said Estes had no guts. However, he has always had major POTENTIAL, he has just never harnessed it. However, I think a few sessions with Gully could go a long way with a guy like him.

I agree.

That said, most of Gullett's success stories have been guys with a bulldog mentality who had solid command but came up a little short in the stuff category. Estes is the polar opposite of the 'Gullett type', in that he wilts under pressure and has terrible command. We could see another Tomko/Bell meltdown as Estes withers under Don's iron fist.

Hopefully, the Sherriff can work with Estes and turn him into 'Schourek part deux'. I'll be rooting for 'em, but I won't be holding my breath.

Falls City Beer
08-15-2002, 06:11 PM
"He's still soft and gutless, and the Reds are too far back for this to make any difference."

Yep.

red-in-la
08-15-2002, 06:12 PM
Over the last 4 years, Estes has a 9 plus ERA against the Cards. So I am not sure why it is so important to have a LH starter of his ilk against them.

Seems to me, that I could manage a 9 plus ERA and I am RH.

Also, NOBODY has yet mentioned that Estes had to pass waivers to be traded to the Reds....that means that not onloy did every other ML team NOT want him, but the Cards and the "stros weren't at all worried about the Reds getting him.

At the same time, I don't see him being any worse than Chuck Finley and the Cards did back-flips when they got him.

J-Rod
08-15-2002, 06:14 PM
Who would have known the Reds would have picked up 3 legit starters.

But listen to this.

We need an ace. A-C-E

Bartolo Colon was there and we missed out on a 6 million dollar salary for an ace in 2003.

We need an ace.

But a good move. Shrewd and good.

Estes will be a godsend the rest of the way!

Way to go Jim Bowden.

Did any of you dream of the Reds aquiring 3 starters?

Of course, I would have rather had Weaver and Colon, but on a beer budget, we did ok.

Reds4Life
08-15-2002, 06:16 PM
Put me in the Estes=Blech column. But I give Bowden credit, he is doing everything he can with no support from ownership.

oregonred
08-15-2002, 06:18 PM
This one came out of the blue. Looks like Finley but for much less cost.

Look ok by me. Picking up a lefty starter for beer money. Get a couple of draft picks (maybe) when he walks in FA that should be better than anything given up in the deal.

Estes did just pitch a shutout against Houston (7IP and 2 hits) a couple weeks ago.

The "Should Be" Rotation Until Elmer Returns

Dempster
Haynes
Reitsma
Estes
Moehler

Elmer takes the spot of whomever is sucking wind most.

LvJ
08-15-2002, 06:21 PM
I would have it this way..

Dempster
Estes
Reitsma
Moehler
Haynes

:thumbup:

Catch22
08-15-2002, 06:21 PM
I know Creek - it was the first thing in my mind too. I pretty much have now resigned myself to the fact that Chris will not be back with the Reds prior to Sept 1st if at all. I guess the bright side to that is if he doesn't get called up he comes home a month earlier.

Though this move stinks for Chris right now - I can't help but admit that it helps the Reds; especially in light of how many times they play the left hander vulnerable Cards. The interesting part will be seeing who they move to make room.

All I know is that he better pitch well or Bowden will have some 'splainin' to do. The whole idea behind rent-a-starters is that they are supposed to give you wins during the short time they are there. Can't say that Dempster and Moehler have exactly excelled in that department.

gm
08-15-2002, 06:26 PM
Will Estes be the 2nd coming of...Pete Schourek? The parallels are staggering...and St. Gullett stands ready to "impart"

red-in-la
08-15-2002, 06:29 PM
One possible (wishful) scenario is that Gullett makes a big impression on Estes and convinces him that his career can be resurrected in Cincy. Estes wins 5 of 7 starts and re-signs with Cincy for a deep discount for 3 more years.

After his last couple of years, I cannot believe that Estes thinks he is still worth 6 mill a year on the FA market.

oregonred
08-15-2002, 06:31 PM
99% guaranteed Fernandez goes back to AAA to make room for Estes.

Barring someone like SUlly being DL'd.

PuffyPig
08-15-2002, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by red-in-la



Also, NOBODY has yet mentioned that Estes had to pass waivers to be traded to the Reds....that means that not onloy did every other ML team NOT want him, but the Cards and the "stros weren't at all worried about the Reds getting him.



Actually, the reason he passed through waivers was because no one wanted to get stuck with his salary for this season. About $2M at the time of waivers. If you claimed him, he was yours. Neither the Cards or the Astros are in the position to pick up much salary also.

ramp101
08-15-2002, 07:20 PM
The 3 IP game was short because he walked 5, and gave up 1 grand slam, but other than that - it pitched well.

pitched well? :rolleyes:


Dempster
Estes
Reitsma
Moehler
Haynes

in no way is estes a #2 starter, even on the Reds...I put him in the Blech column as well..I saw him pitch twice and he looked lost on the mound out there:confused:

Far East
08-15-2002, 07:24 PM
Cards and the "stros weren't at all worried about the Reds getting him.

Am I wrong, or what is the rule about the number 3 team (Reds) getting him "before" the # 2 team (Astros) or #1 team (Cards) get a shot at him? I think I'm confusing an actual trade with just claiming a player on waivers.

LvJ
08-15-2002, 07:24 PM
Its called an opinion, ramp.

ramp101
08-15-2002, 07:28 PM
oh thats what it's called? :rolleyes:

OldXOhio
08-15-2002, 07:34 PM
Chen's not the prototypical Gullet reclaimation project and I'd say he's been a success since the Reds acquired him. I'm willing to give this one a chance as well.

nice work JB. I like the trade.

red-in-la
08-15-2002, 07:37 PM
Posted by Piggy:
Actually, the reason he passed through waivers was because no one wanted to get stuck with his salary for this season. About $2M at the time of waivers. If you claimed him, he was yours. Neither the Cards or the Astros are in the position to pick up much salary also.

According to ESPN it was about 1.2 mill. And both Houston and the Cards could use another starter. I don't know if Houston was looking for one, but Jocketty was.

And 1.2 to either of these teams is pocket change.

Besides, if the Reds can make a deal to get the Mets to pick up the salary, so could St. Louis or Houston.

I'll say it again, if pretty much anybody thought Estes had much of anything left, he probably wouldn't have made it to the Reds.

Reds army
08-15-2002, 07:41 PM
Blech is the right word: More visionless bander by Bowden. Dude needs to admitt it is over and try to get deals getting rid of the excess, instead he goes out and gets a over-the-hill scum who fills the schoolhalls with dirt. He might have a few good games with the Reds, but he is not the kind of pitcher you win championships with.

Wanna know why Bowden did it: He can't develope his own talent so he takes mediocre pitching from other teams and wastes it on the Reds. Same as in 1995.

Earth to Carl: Fire the windbag you old cog.

Far East
08-15-2002, 08:22 PM
As for Estes being soft, etc. McCoy talked about Tucker's showing up a Giants' pitcher with an extra long homerun trot and then the next time Tucker faced the Giants, Estes put him down with the first pitch.

I agree with other posters who felt that Piazza should have taken the matter into his own hands when Clemens threw the bat his way in the Series and not have expected Estes who was not even a Met then to have done his dirty work for him later.

Old School Redleg
08-15-2002, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Raisor
OK, now the question is, how fast will it take the people that called Estes "soft" and "gutless" a month ago to now jump on the Shawn Estes bandwagon?

PSR


It's the Reds' organization that is soft and gutless... Another band-aid pitcher on a team with major holes.

alloverjr
08-15-2002, 09:03 PM
This move stinks. :thumbdn: With the way the rest of the rotation is shaping up, to go along with an incredibly Jeckyl and Hyde offense, I would be much more inclined to dump players before the end of the month versus picking up 6 week rentals that even worse than our AAA options.

Johnny Footstool
08-15-2002, 09:16 PM
"He's still soft and gutless, and the Reds are too far back for this to make any difference."

Yep.

That's unfounded opinion based on rumor and hearsay, but you're certainly entitled to think that way if you want.


The Reds got an effective LH starter without adding payroll, giving up top prospects, or trading away anyone on the ML roster. That's a fantastic deal any way you look at it.

malcontent
08-15-2002, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by cincinnati chili Note: He LOVES to walk batters. Be patient. He'll drive some of you crazy.
And how, chili. Estes has a Dempster-like career 4.71 BB/9 IP (Dempster: 4.68).

Still, I'll always take me chances with the southpaw to turn any corner.

guernsey
08-15-2002, 09:32 PM
"The Reds got an effective LH starter without adding payroll, giving up top prospects, or trading away anyone on the ML roster. That's a fantastic deal any way you look at it."

If you really think the Reds got something for nothing, that's your perogative, but I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you along with some ocean-front property in Arizona.

Johnny Footstool
08-15-2002, 10:25 PM
So what exactly did they give up, guernsey? Two minor leaguers, and 2 PTBNLs, and they didn't take on additional salary.

If you don't think that's a good deal, I don't know how you could ever be satisfied.

ramp101
08-15-2002, 10:38 PM
estes will hurt this team more than he will help it...i think that is what guernsey is saying

Raisor
08-15-2002, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by Johnny Footstool
So what exactly did they give up, guernsey? Two minor leaguers, and 2 PTBNLs, and they didn't take on additional salary.

If you don't think that's a good deal, I don't know how you could ever be satisfied.


I think it's much too early to decide if it's a good deal or not. Even if he pitches well, it will depend on who the two players to be named later are.

PSR

malcontent
08-15-2002, 10:45 PM
"If I can get another starting pitcher tomorrow, we're going to do it tomorrow," Bowden said. "And if I can get another one in two weeks, we're going to do it again."

Anyone for a 12-man ROTATION?

FWIW, I'd like to see:

R Haynes
L Estes
R Reitsma
L Chen
R Moehler

with Fernandez outrighted and Dempster optioned to AAA.

TRF
08-15-2002, 11:03 PM
Is everyone forgetting Dessens?

With decent run support, the guy should have 14-15 wins right now.

malcontent
08-15-2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by TRF
Is everyone forgetting Dessens?
Not at all, TRF. He's our "ace" when he returns from the DL.

cincinnati chili
08-15-2002, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by Far East
I agree with other posters who felt that Piazza should have taken the matter into his own hands when Clemens threw the bat his way in the Series and not have expected Estes who was not even a Met then to have done his dirty work for him later.

What other posters said this?

It was a world series game. If he got thrown out for charging the mound, it would have been one of the stupidest errors in judgment in the history of baseball.

CougarQuest
08-15-2002, 11:52 PM
I'm with Johnny on this. So far this has cost the Reds two minor league players that a majority of Reds fans have never heard of, for a major league left handed pitcher and it cost no more money for this year. Usually those PTBNL are not top flight minor leaguers. Give the guy a chance. Seems like everyone gets down on every player we obtain before the guy even gets in the uniform.

Juan Encarnacion, he can't hit. Gabe White, he wasn't good when we had him the first time. Russell Branyon, worthless. Bruce Chen, couldn't do it with no one else, can't do it here. Ryan Dempster, can't believe we gave up Juan Encarnacion for him.

He may not be the Ace you were looking for, but I feel more comfortable with him than Rijo or Hamilton as a starter. I love Rijo, but he is not a starter, even in the minor leagues. It is just too much to ask of him. For the life of me, I don't know why they won't bring Reistma up, but there has to be a reason. This trade, if nothing else, should tell you that they are trying to win. There are no fire sales going on.

Falls City Beer
08-16-2002, 12:09 AM
I'm not saying the trade is bad; we didn't give up a thing. But as has been echoed on this thread: He takes away starts from Reitsma. And I don't expect a turnaround from a guy who goes from the Lusitania (Mets) to the Titanic (Reds). It's not exactly the change of scenery most players are looking for.

CougarQuest
08-16-2002, 12:18 AM
I don't know that it does take away starts from Reistma. I thought they were planning on Rijo starting. The way I am looking at it, it takes away a start from Rijo or Hamilton.

CougarQuest
08-16-2002, 02:07 AM
I saw someone post about Andujar, but I didn't see anything about Feliciano. So for those interested:

Feliciano, 25, left handed reliever, 2W - 2L, 4 saves, 2.76 ERA, 48 releif appearances at Louisville & Chattanooga.

Old Red Guard
08-16-2002, 03:44 AM
Unless JB gets someone like Randy Johnson a lot of you wouldn't be satisfied. Estes costs us a couple of dink minor leaguers, the Mets pay him the rest of the way, he's a lefty with talent, he can go deeper than just about anyone on our staff, his stats are decent - not great but decent enough to be on our staff. Sorry JB couldn't deliver Pedro or Randy or Curt or Bartolo but they aren't available guys. Reitsma is as good as Estes right now? Give me a break. You've been watching a different Reitsma than I have then. In a couple years - maybe even next year, I agree that Chris could be better but right now I'll take Estes on the mound against the Cards. Of course, Bob could get smart, bring up Chris and pitch this rotation at the Cards - Estes, Reitsma, Chen. Unless, of course Elmer is ready. Then I'd go Estes, Reitsma, Dessens with Chen ready to come in if anyone falters.

Anyway, I'm with Johnny F - good deal for the Reds.

As for the pennant race, we're still in it but it now depends on how we do with the Cards and Stros. Win both series and its still on. Lose or get swept in either or both and start planning next year's team.

guernsey
08-16-2002, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by ramp101
estes will hurt this team more than he will help it...i think that is what guernsey is saying

No, I don't think this deal will help or hurt the team. Estes isn't the answer to get the Reds to the post season this year. There is no answer. It's not going to happen. But to think the Reds got an antique in exchange for four pieces of junk is foolhardy. This trade was nothing more than re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

RANDY IN INDY
08-16-2002, 08:31 AM
I know everyone is frustrated with the Reds play as of late, myself included, but if the Reds would have won 2 of 3 from the D-backs, the majority of people who have been "poo-pooing" this trade would probably have a totally different outlook. I take that back, they would be griping for the sake of hearing themselves gripe.

I don't see it as a bad deal for the Reds. They gave up very little and took on no salary as has been mentioned. Gullet has a great history of success with guys like Estes. He definitely is no 6 million dollar man now, and just maybe Gullett can work his magic again, and Estes re-signs with the Reds for a reasonable amount. This is the way Bowden has to operate with this club, and he has had a lot of success with it.

Bowden is not going to be able to go out and get the "stud" that some of you are pre-occupied with. Lindner and Allen are not going to let that happen. To criticize Bowden for trying is just not thinking straight, of course, if he didn't do anything, he would be criticized too. We gave up no top-notch prospects and we took on no more salary. What's not to like? And if you don't like it, what would you have done differently, considering the financial constraints that Jimmy B operates under. My God, the guy is working and trying.

:rolleyes:

Raisor
08-16-2002, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC
And if you don't like it, what would you have done differently, considering the financial constraints that Jimmy B operates under. My God, the guy is working and trying.




As Yoda said, "Do, or do not. There is no try!"

What would I have done differentlly? Put Chen and Reitsma in the rotation.

Reitsma is better then Estes, right now. His ERA is better then a run/game better, and he gives up less baserunners.

For goodness sake, Chen's pitched only 13 inning in the second half this season. The guy needs to be going every 5th day or he needs to be in AAA, starting.

guernsey
08-16-2002, 09:04 AM
Before we assume the Reds didn't give up anyone as the PsTBNL, let's remember that David Espinosa wasn't among JimBo's 'untouchabes' and he was the only leadoff candidate the Reds had in their system.

M2
08-16-2002, 10:37 AM
First off, all the credit in the world to JimBo for aggressively chasing the division title. I don't often disagree with Guernsey, but I don't believe the Reds are too far back for Estes (provided he pitches well) to make a difference. They play seven games each against the Cardinals and Astros over the next three weeks. If they go 5-2 in against both of those clubs, the Reds chances are alive and well. Add to that the fact that the team's final 23 games will be played against the The Sisters of the Poor and the Reds seem even more viable. This is no time to quit and I'm pleased to see the organization chasing the brass ring.

gm's comparison to Pete Schourek is a good one. Pete was kind of soft, but he had ability. Estes fits the same mold. If anything, Estes has more ability. Gullett might be able to turn this guy into a killer. If he pitches well down the stretch, I'd like to see the Reds keep him.

To give the Mets credit, Feliciano could be a major league reliever in the not-too-distant future and Andujar has electric skills (and some command of the strikezone to boot).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Reds have four PTBNLs lurking out there? Wonder who they'll be.

guernsey
08-16-2002, 10:47 AM
"If they go 5-2 in against both of those clubs ..."

And if we had ham, we could have ham and eggs, if we had eggs.

The Reds have losing records against both of these teams, and I don't see the acquisitions of Moehler, Dempster and Estes are going to change that.

The Reds face Oswaldt tomorrow and Wade Miller on Sunday or Monday, and the Reds haven't been able to touch those guys.

Hey, everyone has to make their own decision on when they think that the pursuit of the pennant is over. Some give up in spring training, some in June, others when the magic number comes up. I've made my decision. Doesn't mean I expect anyone to agree with me or that anyone else is not right for not agreeing with me.

NCRed
08-16-2002, 11:13 AM
I will agree that it is time to put a fork in us to see if we are done but I will wait till Monday. There is no turning back now, anything less than 3 wins this series and 3 next week against STL will be unacceptable. You are right, there is no evidence that we can do it. I tell you that I hated being swept by the Rockies worse that the DBacks. Last week sucked.

I am torn between deciding what our real needs our. Obviously a front-line starter but offensively we need something too. I think Mateo and Larson are 2 hitters we could use in the line-up, but how do get them in. Maybe we will have to lose a Dunn or Kearns to get an ACE. A high OBP lead-off hitter is also needed.

NOw, one area we need to change is the closer spot. A dont know if Danny can start but 7 BS killed us. Make 4-5 of those saves and we are in first place still (maybe) The Reds have evidence that they can find good closers so that is good. I hope the FO recognizes it is time for a change.

Boone and Knight are a dangerous combination and I feel are not capable of sustaining any success.

OH well, I will keep bleeding RED

M2
08-16-2002, 11:22 AM
Boiled down, the team that wins the division will have to play well. The Reds are still in a position where if they play well they can win the division.

I'm not saying they will or that it's likely, I'm just saying that they still hold much of their destiny in their hands.

IMO, it's a little early for fatalism (though that could change in a week, it's a volatile point in the season).

LvJ
08-16-2002, 11:23 AM
I laugh at some of you. We got a full month of baseball left, and alot of it is with the Stros and Cards. Its not over yet folks.

ramp101
08-16-2002, 01:48 PM
First off, all the credit in the world to JimBo for aggressively chasing the division title.


getting a bartolo colon would mean going after the division title aggressively....the expos did such a thing

getting 3 #3 pitchers is not considered going for it, but showing th fans they mesed up for not getting colon, so 3 is better than 1;)

BigD
08-16-2002, 02:33 PM
A divisional title is not likely.

The Cards and Astros are more talented than us.

However, we have a team that can win a game or two. We play all the right teams the rest of the way, we need to play our competitors(Astros and Cards) and avoiding the other good teams in the NL and playing the weak ones(No games against ATL, LA, SF, 3 against ARI). I have no clue on the Astros or Cardinals schedule left. But I think it is possible to do, not likely but possible.

buckeyenut
08-16-2002, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by ramp101


getting a bartolo colon would mean going after the division title aggressively....the expos did such a thing

getting 3 #3 pitchers is not considered going for it, but showing th fans they mesed up for not getting colon, so 3 is better than 1;)

Getting Bartolo Colon at the price that was paid would mean selling out A LARGE CHUNK of the future for a shot at the division title right now. MON could afford to do that because they quite possibly have no future.

Getting 3 #3 pitchers for next to nothing is a pretty good alternative. Now if these guys would just pitch like #3 pitchers for once. :)

ramp101
08-16-2002, 03:18 PM
hey, i personally think giving up some of the farm for an ACE is worth it

gm
08-16-2002, 03:48 PM
"I would be much more inclined to dump players before the end of the month versus picking up 6 week rentals that even worse than our AAA options."

(More evidence that Gullett prefers working with veteran pitchers, as opposed to youngsters, like Acevedo...and Reitsma?)

http://www.activedayton.com/ddn/sports/reds/0816trade.html

"...Gully has liked [Estes] for quite a while. Over his last five starts he really, really threw like he had in the past. Our hope is that he throws the next five for us like he threw the last five."

Gullett likes the veteran presence Estes brings.

"He is a veteran guy who is very capable," said Gullett. "He has been inconsistent for whatever reason. I haven't been around him, so I can't tell why, but when he is on he is capable of shutting any opponent down. It is not like we're putting a rookie into a pennant race."

gm
08-16-2002, 04:09 PM
"gm's comparison to Pete Schourek is a good one. Pete was kind of soft, but he had ability. Estes fits the same mold. If anything, Estes has more ability. Gullett might be able to turn this guy into a killer. If he pitches well down the stretch, I'd like to see the Reds keep him."

For the record, steve4192 beat me to the "Schourek comparison" by a few minutes, yesterday.

But I did raise the question "should the Reds be interested in acquiring Estes?" about a month ago, and IIRC M2 was the only respondent to express favor with the idea

Don Gullett's ability to recondition veteran pitchers may have worked against the organization's possibility of developing young starting pitchers over the last 10 years. This has been suggested before, and it bears repeating now. Bowden knows he can acquire retreads and hand them over to Don...so the team's patience with young starters has been short.

ramp101
08-16-2002, 04:31 PM
I am not trying to start a riot, but why is everyone so high on Gullett?

Red Leader
08-16-2002, 04:33 PM
ramp, because he is the best.

cincinnati chili
08-16-2002, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by ramp101
I am not trying to start a riot, but why is everyone so high on Gullett?

Because unlike a guy like Jeff Torborg, who destroys pitchers, guys like Gullet actually revive them.

ramp101
08-16-2002, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by cincinnati chili


Because unlike a guy like Jeff Torborg, who destroys pitchers, guys like Gullet actually revive them.

what has he done recently?

demp is struggling,moeheler isnt improving......really what has he done?

and jeff torborg is a manager not pitching coach

red-in-la
08-16-2002, 05:07 PM
I don't think Gullett had that much to do with Schourek.....Pete became dominant because he finally came back from major arm surgery and got his 93 mph fastback back. Si I am not sure that I agree with the comparisons to Schourek.

But to me, Estes is the perfect Gullett project. A guy who somewhere along the line lost the mental part of the game. Don is perfect for these guys.

Raisor
08-16-2002, 05:12 PM
Gullett is very good at taking guys off the scrap heap and turning them into average to above average pitchers, but is that really the best course of action for the Reds?
He does not seem to be good with the younger guys, and for the Reds to get better over the next few years, they're going to need to get good results from the young guys.

gm
08-16-2002, 06:22 PM
"I don't think Gullett had that much to do with Schourek"

This is incorrect. Don spotted a flaw in Pete's delivery (something about how Schourek took the ball from the mitt and into the pitching motion, IIRC) and the change immediately improved Pete's command and velocity. Schourek was runner up for the Cy Young the year after joining the Reds, but before Gullett worked with him he was a soft-tossing journeyman lefthanded pitcher

I don't recall reading that Schourek ever threw 93 mph, prior to major arm surgery. He threw junk in the Met's bullpen because he didn't trust his fastball

WebScorpion
08-17-2002, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by ramp101

what has he done recently?

demp is struggling,moeheler isnt improving......really what has he done?


Let's see... Moehler is coming around. Dempster had a solid start Dempster article (http://www.cincypost.com/2002/jul/31/reds073102.html) Bruce Chen is much improved. Chen article (http://reds.enquirer.com/2002/06/19/red_gullett_finds_chens.html) Jimmy Haynes looks better this year than ...uh, ever! Elmer Dessens...ditto! Dessens comment - see 04.05 (http://www.rototimes.com/baseball1/profile.pl?1853) He somehow got Mark Wohlers to throw strikes...now that was a miracle. Wohlers article (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/news/2001/03/24/wohlers_happy_ap/index.html) He revived Pete Harnisch's career. While your thinking of it, look up Steve Parris and Ron Villone's stats to see who their pitching coach was during their 'career year's.

...and that's just the recent stuff.

Here's another little trick, go to Google and type in "best pitching coach in baseball" (with the quotes) and see whose name shows up. Probably Joe Kerrigan (who's no longer a pitching coach) and Don Gullett...that's all.

Hopefully this answers your question. ;)

ramp101
08-17-2002, 02:05 AM
so Gullett has this power to make crappy pitchers into decent ones? has he ever had the chance to work with any youngsters before this year?

[i am not being sarcastic with anything i wrote above]

Old Red Guard
08-17-2002, 05:09 AM
Gullett's ability to resurrect veteran pitchers is noted throughout the game...if the Reds don't make a serious offer to kkep him someone else will jump all over him. His one question mark as a coach is working with young pitchers - he and Tomko didn't get along and Acevedo has been up and down, Reitsma is coming along but I think Don would really like to put that question to rest once and for all. He'll get his chance real soon because he's going to have a slew of kids over the next 2-3 years, plus Chen and Dempster to work with. I think he can work with younger pitchers but a lot of the guys we've had have been highly over hyped. Bell has sucked in Texas, Tomko has only just begun to pitch in any form that appears decent, both were a lot better in hype than reality. Give Gullet real talent and I think you'll see results. Reitsma is a start but wait til he gets Dempster for a whole season and gets to work with Hudson/Howington/Aramboles/Moseley/Gruler/Basham/Kelley et al. Then we can make a judgement. I believe it will a good one.