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Puffy
06-06-2006, 11:01 PM
on the draft -

(1) Both Longoria and Miller let it be known to the Rockies that they wanted no part of them. They felt the "christian" clubhouse was not kosher (my word, not his)

(2) Andrew Miller had a deal worked out with the Red Sox and tried to drive his price up so high (perception wise) that he would fall to them. Obviously it didn't work.

M2
06-06-2006, 11:17 PM
on the draft -

(1) Both Longoria and Miller let it be known to the Rockies that they wanted no part of them. They felt the "christian" clubhouse was not kosher (my word, not his)

(2) Andrew Miller had a deal worked out with the Red Sox and tried to drive his price up so high (perception wise) that he would fall to them. Obviously it didn't work.

I wasn't aware the Rockies had that kind of rep.

Credit to the Tigers for calling Miller's bluff.

traderumor
06-06-2006, 11:19 PM
Perhaps the Miller rumor shows a need to not allow pre-draft contract negotiations without some form of disclosure. That type of shenanigans seems patently unfair and defeats the reverse order principal of the draft. Of course, the supplemental picks have been overtaken by the rich teams too, so why not, I guess.

George Foster
06-06-2006, 11:23 PM
[QUOTE=Puffy]on the draft -

(1) Both Longoria and Miller let it be known to the Rockies that they wanted no part of them. They felt the "christian" clubhouse was not kosher (my word, not his)

What is the point in getting to the majors, if you can't have porn in the clubhouse, and strippers after the game? I mean really. Who want's to play with family oriented professionals?

Christian not being kosher...is funny..is that a quote form Gammons?

flyer85
06-06-2006, 11:27 PM
anyone have a link to the entire article

GAC
06-07-2006, 05:28 AM
on the draft -

(1) Both Longoria and Miller let it be known to the Rockies that they wanted no part of them. They felt the "christian" clubhouse was not kosher (my word, not his)

I guess there was some sort of article recently in the USA Today on this "atmosphere" within the Rockie's clubhouse. I didn't read the article, and what it all involves, so I can't comment much.

But in the USA Today Comment section (like a Letter to the Editor), I read a reader response who wrote that this violates law and should be prohibited.

Are people in this country that ignorant?

Reds Fanatic
06-07-2006, 08:20 AM
This is the Usa Today article that talks about the Rockies clubhouse.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/rockies/2006-05-30-rockies-cover_x.htm


DENVER — No copies of Playboy or Penthouse are in the clubhouse of baseball's Colorado Rockies. There's not even a Maxim. The only reading materials are daily newspapers, sports and car magazines and the Bible.
Music filled with obscenities, wildly popular with youth today and in many other clubhouses, is not played. A player will curse occasionally but usually in hushed tones. Quotes from Scripture are posted in the weight room. Chapel service is packed on Sundays. Prayer and fellowship groups each Tuesday are well-attended. It's not unusual for the front office executives to pray together.

On the field, the Rockies are trying to make the playoffs for the first time in 11 seasons and only the second time in their 14-year history. Behind the scenes, they quietly have become an organization guided by Christianity — open to other religious beliefs but embracing a Christian-based code of conduct they believe will bring them focus and success.

From ownership on down, it's an approach the Rockies are proud of — and something they are wary about publicizing. "We're nervous, to be honest with you," Rockies general manager Dan O'Dowd says. "It's the first time we ever talked about these issues publicly. The last thing we want to do is offend anyone because of our beliefs."

Rockies pitcher Jason Jennings says: "They do preach character and good living here. It's a must for them, and that starts from the very top. But we're not a military group. ... Nobody is going to push their beliefs on each other or make judgments. We do believe that if you do things right and live your life right, good things are going to happen."

The Rockies, at 27-24 entering Tuesday, are having their best season since 1995 with a payroll of $44 million, the lowest in the National League's West Division. Their season ticketholders and fans are, for the most part, unaware of the significance the Rockies place on Christian values.

"I had no idea they were a Christian team. ... I would love for them to talk about their Christianity publicly," says Tim Boettcher, 42, a season ticketholder for 12 years and an elder at the Hosanna Lutheran Church in Littleton, Colo. "It makes sense because of the way they conduct themselves. You don't see the showboating and the trash talking. ... They look like a team and act like a team."

That's a departure from the team's recent past. Colorado has averaged 91 losses the last five years, the legacy of costly personnel decisions that didn't pan out.

"We had to go to hell and back to know where the Holy Grail is. We went through a tough time and took a lot of arrows," says Rockies chairman and CEO Charlie Monfort, one of the original owners.

Monfort did, too. He says that after years of partying, including 18 months' probation for driving while impaired, he became a Christian three years ago. It influenced how he wanted to run the club, he says.

"We started to go after character six or seven years ago, but we didn't follow that like we should have," he says. "I don't want to offend anyone, but I think character-wise we're stronger than anyone in baseball. Christians, and what they've endured, are some of the strongest people in baseball. I believe God sends signs, and we're seeing those."

The use of faith as a motivator and team-builder isn't unusual in sports.

A few minor league teams — particularly in the South — have held Faith Night promotions for churchgoing fans that have featured rock concerts and even sermons. It's common to see groups of professional football and basketball players in postgame prayer circles.

The Rockies' approach is unusual in that religious doctrine is a guide for running a franchise. The club's executives emphasize they are not intolerant of other views.

"We try to do the best job we can to get people with the right sense of moral values, but we certainly don't poll our players or our organization to find out who is Christian and who isn't," says O'Dowd, who says he has had prayer sessions on the telephone with club President Keli McGregor and manager Clint Hurdle. "I know some of the guys who are Christians, but I can't tell you who is and who isn't."

Is it possible that some Rockies are playing the role of good Christians just to stay in the team's good graces? Yes, former Rockies say.

"They have a great group of guys over there, but I've never been in a clubhouse where Christianity is the main purpose," says San Francisco Giants first baseman-outfielder Mark Sweeney, a veteran of seven organizations who spent 2003 and 2004 with the Rockies. "You wonder if some people are going along with it just to keep their jobs.

"Look, I pray every day," Sweeney says. "I have faith. It's always been part of my life. But I don't want something forced on me. Do they really have to check to see whether I have a Playboy in my locker?"

Approach not for everyone

Other baseball executives say they appreciate the Rockies' new emphasis on good character but say they would never try to build a team of Christian believers.

"You don't hear about it so much with their players, but you hear about it with their front office," San Diego Padres general manager Kevin Towers says. "That's not us. ... We wouldn't do that. But who's to say they're wrong for doing that?"

The Rockies, who tied for the second-worst record in baseball last year at 67-95, are on pace to finish with a franchise-record 86 wins. They have had at least a share of first place for 32 days and were in first as recently as May 21.

They have fine pitching, led by starters Aaron Cook, Jeff Francis and Jennings, and a bullpen anchored by Brian Fuentes is on target for the lowest earned run average in franchise history.

Their defense ranks third in the league. All-Star first baseman Todd Helton, the face of the organization, has been joined by rising outfield stars Matt Holliday and Brad Hawpe.

"I'm very proud of the comeback they've made," says baseball Commissioner Bud Selig, adding he was unaware of the extent of the team's focus on religious values. "They have to do what they feel is right."

Helton, a regular at the team's chapel services, says: "There is a plan for everything. ... We have a lot of good people in here, people who care about each other. People who want to do what's right."

Hurdle, 48, who says he became a Christian three years ago, says of the team's devotion: "We're not going to hide it. We're not going to deny it. This is who we are."

While praising their players, Rockies executives make clear they believe God has had a hand in the team's improvement.

"You look at things that have happened to us this year," O'Dowd says. "You look at some of the moves we made and didn't make. You look at some of the games we're winning. Those aren't just a coincidence. God has definitely had a hand in this."

Strikes Out Looking
06-07-2006, 08:26 AM
I'm guessing Shawn Green and Kevin Youkilis won't be seeking trades to Colorado this year!

redsmetz
06-07-2006, 08:45 AM
I'm guessing Shawn Green and Kevin Youkilis won't be seeking trades to Colorado this year!

Nor would any of the others on this list

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/Jewish_baseball_players.shtml

As a Christian myself, I'm troubled by such exclusiveness. I think God cares quite alot for all of humanity and other than the pure beauty of the game, I don't think God cares one way or the other which team wins, other than just playing this beautiful game.

smith288
06-07-2006, 09:04 AM
Why is a Christian ran organization automatically labeled anti-semetic with thoughts that Shawn Green or Kevin Youkilis not wanting to go there?

They sound open more towards good charactered people, not soley Christians. Christians and Jews are pretty good allies around the world if you ask me.

Puffy
06-07-2006, 09:41 AM
Well, I had read the article before and the only part I have a problem with is the God definitely has a hand in some of the games they are winning.

It always cracks me up when a bunch of christians, or jews or any religion, and then claim God has a hand in winning. Yeah, like God is playing favorites in heaven over a baseball game. So, the other team has no good Christians? How about when the Rockies play the Nationals and Ryan Church - is the Big Guy gonna force a tie, or is he gonna help the team with MORE christians?

Az Red
06-07-2006, 09:45 AM
The Rockies have the right to choose their players and clubhouse rules. It's better than having the "leaded" and "unleaded" in the clubhouse.

PickOff
06-07-2006, 09:47 AM
I guess there was some sort of article recently in the USA Today on this "atmosphere" within the Rockie's clubhouse. I didn't read the article, and what it all involves, so I can't comment much.

But in the USA Today Comment section (like a Letter to the Editor), I read a reader response who wrote that this violates law and should be prohibited.

Are people in this country that ignorant?

Ignorant about what?

M2
06-07-2006, 09:49 AM
Why is a Christian ran organization automatically labeled anti-semetic with thoughts that Shawn Green or Kevin Youkilis not wanting to go there?

It might be a vibe thing than anything anti-semetic. Apparently Longoria and Miller weren't too keen on the idea of playing there.

Sometimes folks get a little too into their own thing and others who don't share those interests/beliefs don't want their lives to revolve around something they generally don't care about. So it's probably not that anyone thinks the folks in the Rockies clubhouse are hostile to Jews, it's probably a case where some Jews might not care for the steady stream of Christianity.

registerthis
06-07-2006, 09:58 AM
It might be a vibe thing than anything anti-semetic. Apparently Longoria and Miller weren't too keen on the idea of playing there.

Sometimes folks get a little too into their own thing and others who don't share those interests/beliefs don't want their lives to revolve around something they generally don't care about. So it's probably not that anyone thinks the folks in the Rockies clubhouse are hostile to Jews, it's probably a case where some Jews might not care for the steady stream of Christianity.

Yeah, for the exact reason why I wouldn't want to play for a team with a lot of Dallas Cowboys fans.

smith288
06-07-2006, 09:59 AM
It might be a vibe thing than anything anti-semetic. Apparently Longoria and Miller weren't too keen on the idea of playing there.

Sometimes folks get a little too into their own thing and others who don't share those interests/beliefs don't want their lives to revolve around something they generally don't care about. So it's probably not that anyone thinks the folks in the Rockies clubhouse are hostile to Jews, it's probably a case where some Jews might not care for the steady stream of Christianity.
Are Longoria and Miller jewish or do they just not want to be around a more character centered ballclub? Out of curiosity. College kids might not be keen on the idea (wanting the more party styled atmosphere) thus their apprehension to join the Billy Graham Rockies.

lollipopcurve
06-07-2006, 10:00 AM
(2) Andrew Miller had a deal worked out with the Red Sox and tried to drive his price up so high (perception wise) that he would fall to them. Obviously it didn't work.

I'm so glad he -- and the Red Sox -- did not succeed with this. The sooner they get to a collectively bargained slotting system for the draft, the better, in my opinion.

registerthis
06-07-2006, 10:07 AM
Are Longoria and Miller jewish or do they just not want to be around a more character centered ballclub?

I think the word was "Christian", not "Character".

vaticanplum
06-07-2006, 10:10 AM
I think the word was "Christian", not "Character".

And some people do not equate "Christian", particularly an organization that makes a point to recognize itself as such, with "character". No judgment, just a point.

M2
06-07-2006, 10:11 AM
Are Longoria and Miller jewish or do they just not want to be around a more character centered ballclub? Out of curiosity. College kids might not be keen on the idea (wanting the more party styled atmosphere) thus their apprehension to join the Billy Graham Rockies.

Could be either I suppose, though I was under the (quite possibly mistaken) notion that it was the former.

Though I could see where a lot of players would be put off even if they're not from another religion and it would have nothing to do with wanting to party. The Rockies are a bad team and have been for quite some time and I can see where someone from the outside might figure the organization is headed nowhere if it thinks it's going to pray its way out of the basement.

smith288
06-07-2006, 10:16 AM
Could be either I suppose, though I was under the (quite possibly mistaken) notion that it was the former.

Though I could see where a lot of players would be put off even if they're not from another religion and it would have nothing to do with wanting to party. The Rockies are a bad team and have been for quite some time and I can see where someone from the outside might figure the organization is headed nowhere if it thinks it's going to pray its way out of the basement.
God doesnt root for any particular team...though he does root against (see Wolverines, Michigan LOL)

RedsBaron
06-07-2006, 10:25 AM
I once read that, after seeing a hitter cross himself while in the batter's box, Yogi Berra called time out. Berra then crossed himself and told the hitter: "Now it's even with God. Get in there and try to hit."

redsmetz
06-07-2006, 10:38 AM
It might be a vibe thing than anything anti-semetic. Apparently Longoria and Miller weren't too keen on the idea of playing there.

Sometimes folks get a little too into their own thing and others who don't share those interests/beliefs don't want their lives to revolve around something they generally don't care about. So it's probably not that anyone thinks the folks in the Rockies clubhouse are hostile to Jews, it's probably a case where some Jews might not care for the steady stream of Christianity.

I would concur with this - I didn't take the notion to be anti-Semitic. But it strikes me as not terribly welcoming of players of other faiths or a place they would feel comfortable. Now that said, in the day, players such as Hank Greenberg went through bigotry and hatred as deep as anything.

I do not have an issue with the question of character and players presenting themselves well (although I've got a real bug on that facial hair thingy we used to have and the Marlins now have). I think a ballclub benefits from that group identity, but I don't believe it needs to be a religious question or a particular religion. That was my issue.

VR
06-07-2006, 10:53 AM
I think it's sad that a clubhouse that doesn't permit pornography or obsenity has to feel nervous about speaking publicly about it.

Benihana
06-07-2006, 11:09 AM
I think it's sad that a clubhouse that doesn't permit pornography or obsenity has to feel nervous about speaking publicly about it.

That's not what they're nervous about. They are nervous about publicly acknowledging the Christian atmosphere as it could easily make others that don't neccessarily share Christian ideals feel uncomfortable. Myself included.

15fan
06-07-2006, 11:15 AM
Disclaimer: I spent many years in Catholic schools playing sports. I've participated in plenty of pre-game prayers.

I find the whole pre-game / during game prayer thing to be a bit amusing.

Dear (insert deity of choice here):

Please let us beat the crap out of the guys in the other uniforms in this game.

Amen.

or...

Dear (insert deity of choice here):

Thank you for letting me mash that guy's pitch into a low earth orbit in front of thousands of people in the stands or at home in front of their televisions. He'll probably get sent down to the minors or released after the game, throwing not only his life, but the lives of his spouse and children into complete chaos.

Amen.

VR
06-07-2006, 11:17 AM
That's not what they're nervous about. They are nervous about publicly acknowledging the Christian atmosphere as it could easily make others that don't neccessarily share Christian ideals feel uncomfortable. Myself included.

Precisely, but anyone with Christian or other religeous ideals should feel comfortable in clubhouses with porno on the coffee table, obsenities flying and some of that nice gangsta rap playing? (Or Country Western for that matter ;) )

Az Red
06-07-2006, 11:31 AM
Ther is nothing new under the sun:

Athletes on the playing fields of the Lord
By Stephen Huba, Post staff reporter


As a Christian and professional athlete, Deion Sanders joins a growing company of spiritually minded sports stars working in a business not known for valuing the eternal.

Major League Baseball and the National Football League, especially, have become populated with players who openly speak of their faith in Christ.

''It's erasing that old notion that Christians can't win, that Christians are wimps,'' said Dave Branon, managing editor of Sports Spectrum, a magazine that covers the Christian athlete scene.

Pitchers such as Dave Dravecky and Orel Hershiser have written books touting their Christian faith.

NFL greats Irving Fryar and Reggie White are even ministers on the side.

Every Sunday during football season, players can be seen kneeling at midfield for a post- game prayer.

''It's a player-led movement,'' said Mark Householder, field director for the Cincinnati-based Athletes in Action.

Branon believes Christian athletes are slowly changing the character of professional sports.

''The more high-profile, winning athletes that do it, the easier it is for others to do it,'' he said. ''It's drawing a clear line between those who are causing trouble and those who are not.''

It hasn't always been that way.

Christian athletes didn't start becoming a presence in professional sports until the 1960s and 1970s, observers say.

Branon attributes the phenomenon's growth in part to the rise of chaplaincy programs within the NFL and other sports leagues.

''Teams are more willing to let their players meet (for Bible study and prayer) on Sunday or during the week,'' he said.

Ten to 12 NFL teams take their chaplains along for away games, Householder said, giving an implicit endorsement to the chaplaincy program.

In addition, national ministries such as Athletes in Action and the Fellowship of Christian Athletes seek to support the Christian athlete, who often is placed under close scrutiny and pressured to be a role model.

''We have to give them the freedom to fail and to blow it,'' Householder said.

But with that scrutiny comes a greater opportunity to reach the masses. ''All we're really trying to do is capture the platform that athletics provides and win people to Christ,'' said Wendel Deyo, an Athletes in Action staff member and former Cincinnati Bengals chaplain.

The stated mission of AIA, to turn ''athletic influencers into Christ-centered leaders,'' is not altogether foreign to Christianity. The Apostle Paul compared the walk of faith to a marathon race.

''If 96 percent of Americans play, watch or read about sports once a month, then we need to help people who are looking up to athletes as heroes, find heroes looking up to God,'' Deyo said.

Former Cincinnati Reds pitcher Ted Power did not become a committed Christian until his 14-year baseball career was almost over.

A Cleveland Indian in 1992 and 1993, Power nearly joined the fateful boating trip that killed Indians pitchers Steve Olin and Tim Crews.

That accident changed Power's life, prompting him to use his sports savvy for spiritual service.

Power, who played for the Reds from 1983 to 1987 and again in 1991, is starting a Cincinnati chapter of Christian Sports International.

Publication date: 09-08-97

Johnny Footstool
06-07-2006, 11:32 AM
"I had no idea they were a Christian team. ... I would love for them to talk about their Christianity publicly," says Tim Boettcher, 42, a season ticketholder for 12 years and an elder at the Hosanna Lutheran Church in Littleton, Colo. "It makes sense because of the way they conduct themselves. You don't see the showboating and the trash talking. ... They look like a team and act like a team."

Christians don't trash talk or showboat at all. Never have.

As others have pointed out, "Christian" does not always correlate with "character."

I think it's fine if the Rockies want to run their organization like that. The Royals tried it a couple of years ago. Didn't really help them play better baseball, but it probably helped some of the players in their personal lives.

I also don't have a problem with Miller or Longoria opting out of that lifestyle.


Precisely, but anyone with Christian or other religeous ideals should feel comfortable in clubhouses with porno on the coffee table, obsenities flying and some of that nice gangsta rap playing? (Or Country Western for that matter )

Aren't Christians supposed to "be in this world, but not of it"? It seems that if Christians expect to be allowed to worship as they please, they would be understanding of those who like edgier music and don't mind a few curse words.

westofyou
06-07-2006, 11:33 AM
they would be understanding of those who like edgier music and don't mind a few curse words.And boobies

PickOff
06-07-2006, 11:34 AM
Precisely, but anyone with Christian or other religeous ideals should feel comfortable in clubhouses with porno on the coffee table, obsenities flying and some of that nice gangsta rap playing? (Or Country Western for that matter ;) )

Baseball is a business. A team could run their clubhouse like a business. You don't see porn mags, hear much in the way of profanity and that includes music, in coporate America. You don't see company prayers either.

Baseball is different, though. It is way beyond the norms. No reason to practice lawsuit avoidance like corporate America when everyone's a millionare. This gives them a different kind of license and alot of leeway.

I don't think putting religion into the forefront is a great idea, though. Lots of fanatics out there that when given a soapbox, can offend or scare some folks. Add that to peer pressure and group mentality issues and you could have some problems.

If everyone is on the same page, however, it could work out well. I imagine that would be hard to maintain, though.

paulrichjr
06-07-2006, 11:49 AM
Christians don't trash talk or showboat at all. Never have.

As others have pointed out, "Christian" does not always correlate with "character."

I think it's fine if the Rockies want to run their organization like that. The Royals tried it a couple of years ago. Didn't really help them play better baseball, but it probably helped some of the players in their personal lives.

I also don't have a problem with Miller or Longoria opting out of that lifestyle.



Aren't Christians supposed to "be in this world, but not of it"? It seems that if Christians expect to be allowed to worship as they please, they would be understanding of those who like edgier music and don't mind a few curse words.

I'm a Christian and I tolerate music that frankly I find offensive ever time I go to the gym. If I get there first I can play any type of music I want (I listen to a wide variety but not rap - except TobyMac)...but if the teen crowd gets there first they listen to something that shouldn't be described as music...I don't make a scene and I think most Christians are like that. On a related note I have a client and real good friend (Reds fan who goes with me ever year to Opening Day) who happens to be a real good friend of Aaron Cook on the Rockies. He has told me that Aaron would have loved to play for the Reds and still would at some point in his career. Aaron is from the Cincy area. Staying on subject...Aaron is also a Christian. I had heard my friend talk about the Rockies beliefs but I didn't realize just how wide spread it was.

I also don't believe that God puts a lot of care in the Reds winning or the Rockies winning this year. Brandon Claussen is a Christian so when Aaron Cook faces him what happens?

registerthis
06-07-2006, 12:07 PM
Brandon Claussen is a Christian so when Aaron Cook faces him what happens?

That sounds like a good way to bring about the rapture, or at least some momentary disruption in the space-time continuum.

VR
06-07-2006, 12:25 PM
And boobies

I'm a Christian, and I like those, a lot. It's biblical even.

flyer85
06-07-2006, 12:31 PM
I'm a Christian, and I like those, a lot. It's biblical even.as long as it's your wife, otherwise they are forbidden. :nono:

Crash Davis
06-07-2006, 12:46 PM
I think signing a few heathens could put this team over the top.

oneupper
06-07-2006, 12:53 PM
I'm a Christian and I tolerate music that frankly I find offensive ever time I go to the gym.

While I probably agree with you about offensive music...this situation is not analogous to the Rockies clubhouse by any measure. You can change gyms, work out at your house, etc.

The Clubhouse, on the other hand, is the players PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT and it just happens that the rules of baseball are such that they (mostly) cannot take their trade elsewhere. Therefore, IMO, it cannot be intimidating, offensive or otherwise discriminating to ANY SINGLE ONE of those who work there.

If I were commissioner I "might" allow the Rockies to continue this practice under the following conditions:

1) All employees (players and others), without coercion (and preferably secretly) must agree to the "Christian" workplace. If any one of them is in disagreement...it all has to go.
2) Players should be allowed to refuse transfer or assignment to the Rockies if they do not wish to be a part of this Christian community.

Frankly, I don't see how these conditions can be met so I would probably have to induce the team to provide a hospitable work environment for ALL its employees.

VR
06-07-2006, 12:58 PM
While I probably agree with you about offensive music...this situation is not analogous to the Rockies clubhouse by any measure. You can change gyms, work out at your house, etc.

The Clubhouse, on the other hand, is the players PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT and it just happens that the rules of baseball are such that they (mostly) cannot take their trade elsewhere. Therefore, IMO, it cannot be intimidating, offensive or otherwise discriminating to ANY SINGLE ONE of those who work there.

If I were commissioner I "might" allow the Rockies to continue this practice under the following conditions:

1) All employees (players and others), without coercion (and preferably secretly) must agree to the "Christian" workplace. If any one of them is in disagreement...it all has to go.
2) Players should be allowed to refuse transfer or assignment to the Rockies if they do not wish to be a part of this Christian community.

Frankly, I don't see how these conditions can be met so I would probably have to induce the team to provide a hospitable work environment for ALL its employees.

So, no more offensive media or literature either? (or naked men :eek: )

Strikes Out Looking
06-07-2006, 12:58 PM
I probably have this story wrong, but didn't Marge Schott insist on some kind of team prayer in the early 90's to try to stop a losing streak and Chris Sabo spoke up and said he didn't think the lord really cared if the Reds won or lost?

Anybody remember that incident?

oneupper
06-07-2006, 01:00 PM
So, no more offensive media or literature either? (or naked men :eek: )

Nope. Unless EVERYONE is OK with it.

Az Red
06-07-2006, 01:06 PM
Paul, this is all about being a "Diverse City", right? ;)

If there was a problem with this, wouldn't the player's union be screaming? Anyone currently on the Rockies complained?

PickOff
06-07-2006, 01:17 PM
Paul, this is all about being a "Diverse City", right? ;)

If there was a problem with this, wouldn't the player's union be screaming? Anyone currently on the Rockies complained?

Who's going to complain?

"Uh, Mr. GM, I'm feeling a little uncomfortable with all this bible thumping, you think you can stop it, it's kinda hurting my ears?"

No one is going to complain when they're on the team, and I don't see alot of complaints from those who leave. Why make a big deal out of it, you would just make your life more difficult and possibly offend some people.

As I said earlier, everyone's a millionaire or trying to be in MLB, no need to sue or cause a ruckus, there's more to be lost than gained.

It also doesn't seem like the team is forcing religion on anyone, or being overly aggressive, so there is no smoking gun.

paulrichjr
06-07-2006, 01:23 PM
While I probably agree with you about offensive music...this situation is not analogous to the Rockies clubhouse by any measure. You can change gyms, work out at your house, etc.

The Clubhouse, on the other hand, is the players PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT and it just happens that the rules of baseball are such that they (mostly) cannot take their trade elsewhere. Therefore, IMO, it cannot be intimidating, offensive or otherwise discriminating to ANY SINGLE ONE of those who work there.

If I were commissioner I "might" allow the Rockies to continue this practice under the following conditions:

1) All employees (players and others), without coercion (and preferably secretly) must agree to the "Christian" workplace. If any one of them is in disagreement...it all has to go.
2) Players should be allowed to refuse transfer or assignment to the Rockies if they do not wish to be a part of this Christian community.

Frankly, I don't see how these conditions can be met so I would probably have to induce the team to provide a hospitable work environment for ALL its employees.


Say what? That number 1 and 2 is to me rather odd. You cannot have a place in this world were you are not going to be offended by something. I'm sure Brandon Claussen is offended by something that Adam Dunn or whoever does but he lives with it and goes on. The Rockies have a large majority (it sounds like) of people who want to have devotions and prayer and so forth. I do not think they are saying that everyone has to participate. That goes against my beliefs and frankly would not be tolerated by most people I know.

You cannot have a belief system or way you run a business and say well it has to go if one person disagrees..then what do you do? Have blaring music that over half the team finds offensive - played? Have Penthouse laying around in the open? I don't know how you can draw the line and say this? People need to realize that we are all different and we don't all agree on everything. If you can't handle it then you are going to have a hard time in life. The Christians on the team ALSO must accept the differences and I didn't read anything in the article that seemed to suggest that they didn't.

Number 2 - I think you are thinking that this is some kind of monestary or something. Every team (I would bet) has people that are Christians on it. Many teams have devotions. The Reds also have a manager that is a Christian- just like the Rockies. I simply don't know how you can do what you are saying.

TeamBoone
06-07-2006, 01:43 PM
The Rockies have the right to choose their players and clubhouse rules. It's better than having the "leaded" and "unleaded" in the clubhouse.

Yes, they have the right to select the "chosen few" who are, according to their standards, Christian enough to grace their clubhouse.

My problem... who made them God? How do they know who in baseball is good and God-fearing? Do they know every aspect of every player's life? Do they follow each of them to church every week (or not)? If they don't go to church, are they not good Christians?

I see problems here, and the more public it becomes, the more problems will arise. In a way, it's descrimination... just a different kind.

Hmmm, I think this thread will probably be closed.

registerthis
06-07-2006, 01:48 PM
Hmmm, I think this thread will probably be closed.

It'd be a shame if it was, if the discussion remains civil.

PickOff
06-07-2006, 01:50 PM
It'd be a shame if it was, if the discussion remains civil.

What the heck kind of post is this, Ben? You're a stupid booger. :evil:

TeamBoone
06-07-2006, 01:51 PM
I think it's sad that a clubhouse that doesn't permit pornography or obsenity has to feel nervous about speaking publicly about it.

IMHO, that's not the problem here (if one does exist). The Rockies can sport any clubhouse rules they deem fit. It's the fact that they go out of their way to hire only Christian players, without even considering those of other faiths.

To me, that's really going out on a limb... a very skinny one.

registerthis
06-07-2006, 01:52 PM
What the heck kind of post is this, Ben? You're a stupid booger. :evil:

Pound sand, you heathen pig. :p:

registerthis
06-07-2006, 01:53 PM
IMHO, that's not the problem here (if one does exist). The Rockies can sport any clubhouse rules they deem fit. It's the fact that they go out of their way to hire only Christian players, without even considering those of other faiths.

I'm sure the other teams in the NL West don't mind. "Hey, Colorado, how about letting us take that 40 HR guy off your hands...I heard he's agnostic."

flyer85
06-07-2006, 01:56 PM
The Rockies can sport any clubhouse rules they deem fit. It's the fact that they go out of their way to hire only Christian players, without even considering those of other faiths.It's their team, they can run it as they see fit. If they choose to limit the pool of prospective players to some subset based on religious beliefs it will likely be to their detriment on the playing field.

As we have seen in the past, if you can produce on the field some team will bring you in, no matter how abhorrent the behavior might be. I doubt Mesa fits in there very well but they signed him and brought him in. If the current management doesn't win they likely won't be around very long.

flyer85
06-07-2006, 01:58 PM
I'm sure the other teams in the NL West don't mind. "Hey, Colorado, how about letting us take that 40 HR guy off your hands...I heard he's agnostic."... in exhange for a light hitting slick fielding born again replacement.

BTW, I am not poking fun at born again Christians, I happen to be one. Just pointing out the absurdity of making MLB personnel decisions primarily on the basis of something other than skill at playing the game (and salary of course).

paulrichjr
06-07-2006, 01:59 PM
If the team is doing what some of you fear then I too would have big problems with this. I think the team is looking for high character players NOT players who are Christians and no more.

flyer85
06-07-2006, 02:01 PM
If the team is doing what some of you fear then I too would have big problems with this. I think the team is looking for high character players NOT players who are Christians and no more.and I am sure they would love to unload Helton and his "heavenly" contract.

VR
06-07-2006, 02:20 PM
IMHO, that's not the problem here (if one does exist). The Rockies can sport any clubhouse rules they deem fit. It's the fact that they go out of their way to hire only Christian players, without even considering those of other faiths.

To me, that's really going out on a limb... a very skinny one.

TB, I didn't see anything in the article about them going out of their way to hire only Christian players?

CrackerJack
06-07-2006, 02:30 PM
It seems players who have strong religious beliefs other than that of Christianity, do not fit in well there, and I wouldn't blame a Jewish player, for instance, for preferring not be exposed to that on a daily basis. It's got to be uncomfortable for some.

Plus they seem like a bunch of boring rubes who think "God" cares about their won/loss record.

I don't blame them for wanting to skip on that group of squares.

VR
06-07-2006, 02:41 PM
It seems players who have strong religious beliefs other than that of Christianity, do not fit in well there, and I wouldn't blame a Jewish player, for instance, for preferring not be exposed to that on a daily basis. It's got to be uncomfortable for some.

Plus they seem like a bunch of boring rubes who think "God" cares about their won/loss record.

I don't blame them for wanting to skip on that group of squares.

Where does it say they do not fit in well there?
Where does it say "God" cares about their won/loss record?

Cedric
06-07-2006, 02:48 PM
It seems players who have strong religious beliefs other than that of Christianity, do not fit in well there, and I wouldn't blame a Jewish player, for instance, for preferring not be exposed to that on a daily basis. It's got to be uncomfortable for some.

Plus they seem like a bunch of boring rubes who think "God" cares about their won/loss record.

I don't blame them for wanting to skip on that group of squares.

You really need something to back up your assumptions.

realreds1
06-07-2006, 02:50 PM
on the draft -

(1) Both Longoria and Miller let it be known to the Rockies that they wanted no part of them. They felt the "christian" clubhouse was not kosher (my word, not his.


Ummm... maybe I'm missing the boat here. But shouldn't these guys be more concerned about developing major-league-ready stuff? I mean, if you don't develop MLB-ready stuff, the MLB clubhouse won't matter ... as you'll never see it. :thumbup:

oneupper
06-07-2006, 02:53 PM
If you can't handle it then you are going to have a hard time in life.

Just because I quote your post doesn't make it personal. I am not saying anything about you so I don't see why you offer your opinion about me.

Back to the topic...

Religious harrassment is no different than any other form of harrassment, as subtle as it may be. It has no place in the workplace.

Two prospects feel intimidated enough by the workplace "rules" (written or not) at Colorado to not want to go there. Either something is wrong or someone is seriously misinformed.

Az Red
06-07-2006, 02:54 PM
on the draft -

(1) Both Longoria and Miller let it be known to the Rockies that they wanted no part of them. They felt the "christian" clubhouse was not kosher (my word, not his)

(2) Andrew Miller had a deal worked out with the Red Sox and tried to drive his price up so high (perception wise) that he would fall to them. Obviously it didn't work.


Back to the original intention of this thread:

Are these prospective rookies trying to game the system to eliminate teams they don't want to play for? That's what I see happening in both cases. If the Rockies had won three championships in a row and become the new dynasty, would anyone complain about going into that clubhouse?

And, because Boston won once, another prospect wants to drive his asking price out of the small market teams range.

Sometimes in life you take the work to feed your family. These guys have it too good.

M2
06-07-2006, 02:57 PM
Where does it say "God" cares about their won/loss record?

Actually their idiot GM said it (and he's not an idiot because of his religious views, but because he's been one of the worst GMs ever).


While praising their players, Rockies executives make clear they believe God has had a hand in the team's improvement.

"You look at things that have happened to us this year," O'Dowd says. "You look at some of the moves we made and didn't make. You look at some of the games we're winning. Those aren't just a coincidence. God has definitely had a hand in this."

One can only wonder whether God has had a hand in their 13-20 record since May 1.

flyer85
06-07-2006, 03:00 PM
(and he's not an idiot because of his religious views, but because he's been one of the worst GMs ever).
O'Dowd is DanO mutliplied by 5. The early season Rockies were nothing but smoke and mirrors and they have the anchor or anchors in that Helton contract.

VR
06-07-2006, 03:03 PM
Actually their idiot GM said it (and he's not an idiot because of his religious views, but because he's been one of the worst GMs ever).



One can only wonder whether God has had a hand in their 13-20 record since May 1.

Maybe they would have been 0-33 without? ;)

I read that O'Dowd quote again, he didn't do such a good job de-idioting himself with that one.

TeamBoone
06-07-2006, 03:07 PM
Does this translate to God not liking all the other teams?

smith288
06-07-2006, 03:08 PM
The Rockies is a business. When you sign on the dotted line you agree to the terms of your employer. There is no 1st amendment issues involved and I really dont think Bud has any place in dictating the house rules there. The MLBPA might have an issue but what is the issue? Christian (not Christians themselves) focused character?

Christian values as described from the Bible? I don't believe there is any coercion forcing the players to convert if they arent Christian. Im sure if there was some sort of kooky stuff going on, it would have leaked by now.

I guess what im saying is that one club can run loosey goosey regarding porn, R-rated movies/music and other clubs can run a tighter ship strongly tied to a Christian backbone.

The ideals behind Christianity are fantastic for good character... I never look at any particular Christian as my guide for character and I think people err when they do.

M2
06-07-2006, 03:11 PM
Does this translate to God not liking all the other teams?

If you're going to get theological about it, wouldn't it be possible God would want a team to lose to test its faith, to see whether they were true believers or just in it for a wordly reward?

Getting back to what flyer said, this does lend some perspective to O'Dowd and Hurdle's continued employment.

And does this mean we can expect Cristian Guzman to don a Rockies jersey in the near future?

WVRed
06-07-2006, 03:14 PM
This is nothing new.

The Houston Astros are a Christian clubhouse as well. Drayton McLane is a member of the First Baptist Church in Houston. When the Astros are at home, they have a chaplain that does devotions, and when they are on the road, Lance Berkman takes over.

I had also read that the Cincinnati Reds were the first team to have a chapel at the stadium.

vaticanplum
06-07-2006, 03:14 PM
I would be pretty upset if the Rockies developed a winning team -- and there are certainly enough Christian players out there for them to do so, if that's what they wanted to do and managed to do it well -- and proceeded to give all the credit to God. I sense that a bigger national baseball-unrelated backing would develop which would make me uncomfortable. I'd like to see my sport remain secular, even though it is technically a private enterprise.

But the Rockies are a private enterprise too and they are free to do what they wish with their team as long as they don't break the rules of Major League Baseball. Others are free to decide they want nothing to do with that.

redsfanmia
06-07-2006, 03:16 PM
Why is God and Religion being discussed on this board? I thought those topics were banned?

CrackerJack
06-07-2006, 03:16 PM
You really need something to back up your assumptions.


Gammons article suffices, referencing the reasons why the two rookie players did want to go there. I "assume" he isn't just making these things up.

The rest was a bit sarcastic - I know religious folks who aren't even so square as to not want a Maxim laying around once in a while, cmon.

The whole thing just sounds silly.

oneupper
06-07-2006, 03:36 PM
Why is God and Religion being discussed on this board? I thought those topics were banned?

Unfortunately they got mixed up with baseball.

redsfanmia
06-07-2006, 03:39 PM
Unfortunately they got mixed up with baseball.
But its still religion, shouldnt be discussed per ban. IMO

M2
06-07-2006, 03:50 PM
But its still religion, shouldnt be discussed per ban. IMO

Seems that if we're able to keep it above board and if we're talking about religion in the context of how a certain baseball is operating then it's a legitimate topic. Certainly it's been well-handled by the folks in this thread and generally it's kept focused on the Rockies and why some players might be wary of that franchise. So I don't see why this particular thread would be verboten. It's been allowed to develop so far.

oneupper
06-07-2006, 04:21 PM
But the Rockies are a private enterprise too and they are free to do what they wish with their team as long as they don't break the rules of Major League Baseball. Others are free to decide they want nothing to do with that.

Not really. They are subject, like everyone else, to anti-discrimination and anti-harrassment legislation. An employee (e.g. the Padres female trainer) could sue for harassment if he or she felt they had a case.

MLB has an anti-trust exemption, that comes with certain strings attatched. In addition, players are "bound" to their teams through the draft process and the CBA. Freedom is not total here.

In other words "This AINT NO COUNTRY CLUB".

So, if the Rockies (or the Astros) seem "inclined" to draft and trade for only players with a determined religious inclination, I think baseball should have an issue with that.

vaticanplum
06-07-2006, 04:29 PM
Not really. They are subject, like everyone else, to anti-discrimination and anti-harrassment legislation. An employee (e.g. the Padres female trainer) could sue for harassment if he or she felt they had a case.

MLB has an anti-trust exemption, that comes with certain strings attatched. In addition, players are "bound" to their teams through the draft process and the CBA. Freedom is not total here.

In other words "This AINT NO COUNTRY CLUB".

So, if the Rockies (or the Astros) seem "inclined" to draft and trade for only players with a determined religious inclination, I think baseball should have an issue with that.

I agree with that. But so far that's not what they're doing, is it? My impression is that they draft players based on their ability and then ask that they accept their clubhouse policies. I don't think that they ask them to conform to their policies if they don't agree with them, but that they do respect them. I dunno, though, I could be wrong; I haven't read many of the details.

Now I personally would get my little tail out of there as fast as I could, but if they're not actively discriminating against players and if the non-Christian players don't have a problem with their ideals, then I think they're in the clear.

dsmith421
06-07-2006, 04:31 PM
Where does it say they do not fit in well there?
Where does it say "God" cares about their won/loss record?

Some of you need to RTA:

GM Dan O'Dowd:

"You look at things that have happened to us this year," O'Dowd says. "You look at some of the moves we made and didn't make. You look at some of the games we're winning. Those aren't just a coincidence. God has definitely had a hand in this."

Manager Clint Hurdle:

"We're not going to hide it. We're not going to deny it. This is who we are."

I don't have a problem with the Rockies making these sorts of statements and claims. It's their right, they are a private organization. I wouldn't want to be in that clubhouse.

EDITED to eliminate possibly verboten topics.

smith288
06-07-2006, 04:34 PM
What is so sad to me here is that the focus isnt more on clubhouses that are ran like soft porn shops instead of the other way around...such is reality in the 21 century i guess.

dsmith421
06-07-2006, 04:37 PM
What is so sad to me here is that the focus isnt more on clubhouses that are ran like soft porn shops instead of the other way around...such is reality in the 21 century i guess.

Care to cite any examples?

realreds1
06-07-2006, 04:43 PM
Why is God and Religion being discussed on this board? I thought those topics were banned?

Frankly, I believe in the Church of Baseball. I've tried all the major religions, and most of the minor ones. I've worshipped Buddha, Allah, Brahma, Vishnu, Siva, trees, mushrooms, and Isadora Duncan. I know things. For instance, there are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. When I heard that, I gave Jesus a chance. But it just didn't work out between us. The Lord laid too much guilt on me. I prefer metaphysics to theology. You see, there's no guilt in baseball, and it's never boring...

oneupper
06-07-2006, 04:44 PM
I agree with that. But so far that's not what they're doing, is it? My impression is that they draft players based on their ability and then ask that they accept their clubhouse policies. I don't think that they ask them to conform to their policies if they don't agree with them, but that they do respect them. I dunno, though, I could be wrong; I haven't read many of the details.

Now I personally would get my little tail out of there as fast as I could, but if they're not actively discriminating against players and if the non-Christian players don't have a problem with their ideals, then I think they're in the clear.

I'm not sure either...check out this article, though.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/02/opinion/main1678811.shtml



This column was written by Dave Zirin.
In Colorado, there stands a holy shrine called Coors Field. On this site, named for the holiest of beers, a team plays that has been chosen by Jesus Christ himself to play .500 baseball in the National League West. And if you don't believe me, just ask the manager, the general manager and the team's owner.

In a remarkable article from Wednesday's USA Today, the Colorado Rockies went public with the news that the organization has been explicitly looking for players with "character." And according to the Tribe of Coors, "character" means accepting Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior. "We're nervous, to be honest with you," Rockies general manager Dan O'Dowd said. "It's the first time we ever talked about these issues publicly. The last thing we want to do is offend anyone because of our beliefs." When people are nervous that they will offend you with their beliefs, it's usually because their beliefs are offensive.

As Rockies chairman and CEO Charlie Monfort said, "We had to go to hell and back to know where the Holy Grail is. We went through a tough time and took a lot of arrows."

Club president Keli McGregor chimed in, "Who knows where we go from here? The ability to handle success will be a big part of the story, too. [Note to McGregor: You're in fourth place.] There will be distractions. There will be things that can change people. But we truly do have something going on here. And [God's] using us in a powerful way."

Well, someone is using somebody, but it ain't God. San Francisco Giants first baseman-outfielder Mark Sweeney, who spent 2003 and 2004 with the Rockies, said, "You wonder if some people are going along with it just to keep their jobs. Look, I pray every day. I have faith. It's always been part of my life. But I don't want something forced on me. Do they really have to check to see whether I have a Playboy in my locker?"

Then there is manager Clint Hurdle and GM O'Dowd. Hurdle, who has guided the team to a Philistine 302-376 record since 2002, as well as fourth or fifth place finishes every year, was rewarded with a 2007 contract extension in the off-season. Hurdle also claims he became a Christian three years ago and says, "We're not going to hide it. We're not going to deny it. This is who we are."

O'Dowd, who also received a contract extension, believes that their 27-26 2006 record has resulted from the active intervention of the Almighty. "You look at things that have happened to us this year. You look at some of the moves we made and didn't make. You look at some of the games we're winning. Those aren't just a coincidence. God has definitely had a hand in this." Or maybe the management that prays together gets paid together.

O'Dowd and company bend over backward in the article to say they are "tolerant" of other views on the club, but that's contradicted by statements like this from CEO Monfort: "I don't want to offend anyone, but I think character-wise we're stronger than anyone in baseball. Christians, and what they've endured, are some of the strongest people in baseball. I believe God sends signs, and we're seeing those." Assumedly, Shawn Green (Jew), Ichiro Suzuki (Shinto) or any of the godless players from Cuba don't have the "character" Monfort is looking for.

Also, there are only two African-American players on the Rockies active roster. Is this because Monfort doesn't think black players have character? Does the organization endorse the statement of its stadium's namesake, William Coors, who told a group of black businessmen in 1984 that Africans "lack the intellectual capacity to succeed, and it's taking them down the tubes"? These are admittedly difficult questions. But these are the questions that need to be posed when the wafting odor of discrimination clouds the air.

Then there are the fans. I spoke with journalist Tom Krattenmaker, who has studied the connection between religion and sports. Krattenmaker said, "I have concerns about what this Christianization of the Rockies means for the community that supports the team in and around Denver a community in which evangelical Christians are probably a minority, albeit a large and influential one. Taxpayers and ticket-buyers in a religiously diverse community have a right not to see their team a quasi-public resource used for the purpose of advancing a specific form of religion. Have the Colorado Rockies become a faith-based organization? This can be particularly problematic when the religion in question is one that makes exclusive claims and sometimes denigrates the validity of other belief systems."

You might think MLB Commissioner Bud Selig would have something stirring to say about this issue. But Selig, who hasn't actually registered a pulse since 1994, only said meekly, "They have to do what they feel is right."

It's not surprising that Selig would play it soft. First and foremost, Bud's First Commandment is "Thou Shalt Not Criticize the Owners. Second, Selig and Major League Baseball this year are experimenting for the first time with Faith Days at the Park. As if last season's Military Appreciation Nights weren't enough, the New York Times reported yesterday that this summer "religious promotions will hit Major League Baseball. The Atlanta Braves are planning three Faith Days this season, the Arizona Diamondbacks one. The Florida Marlins have tentatively scheduled a Faith Night for September." These religious promotions are attractive to owners because they leverage a market of evangelical Christians who are accustomed to mass worship in stadiums at events staged by sports-driven proselytizers like Promise Keepers and Athletes in Action.

As part of the MLB promotion, the Times reports, "local churches will get discounted tickets to family-friendly evenings of music and sports with a Christian theme. And in return, they mobilize their vast infrastructure of e-mail and phone lists, youth programs and chaperones, and of course their bus fleets, to help fill the stands."

At one of the Faith Days in Atlanta, the team will sell special vouchers. After the game, the stands will be cleared and then only those with the specially purchased vouchers will be re-admitted. Those lucky chosen "will be treated to an hour and a half of Christian music and a testimonial from the ace pitcher John Smoltz." Smoltz is the player who in 2004 opined on gay marriage to the Associated Press, saying, "What's next? Marrying an animal?" Good times for the whole family.

The Rockies right now are a noxious reflection of a time in US history when generals speak of crusades and the President recounts his personal conversations with Yahweh. ("You're doing a heckuva job, Goddy!")

If Monfort, O'Dowd and Hurdle want to pray on their own time, more power to them. But the ballpark isn't a church. Smoltz isn't a preacher. And fans aren't a flock. Instead of using their position of commercial power to field a God Squad, the Rockies might want to think about getting some decent players. There was once this guy named Babe Ruth. Not too much for the religion, and his character was less than sterling. But I hear he could play some decent ball.

By Dave Zirin
Reprinted with permission from The Nation.

registerthis
06-07-2006, 05:03 PM
What is so sad to me here is that the focus isnt more on clubhouses that are ran like soft porn shops instead of the other way around...such is reality in the 21 century i guess.

What teams are you talking about?

vaticanplum
06-07-2006, 05:23 PM
"As part of the MLB promotion, the Times reports, "local churches will get discounted tickets to family-friendly evenings of music and sports with a Christian theme. And in return, they mobilize their vast infrastructure of e-mail and phone lists, youth programs and chaperones, and of course their bus fleets, to help fill the stands."

Oh now see...that I don't like. That is taking a vast organization created with no religious purposes in mind and using it to serve and cater to a group brought together solely for religious purposes. Do what you like with your clubhouse, but don't exclude players who don't share your views if they are respectful of them. And similarly, don't exclude fans from a discount if they don't share your views if they are respectful of them. That's very, very tetchy, and even more so than anything the team does alone because it has larger implications for all of MLB. It's MLB's responsiblity to find ways to sell tickets to ALL people, not to select groups simply because they might be easier to reach in sheer numbers.

registerthis
06-07-2006, 06:03 PM
"As part of the MLB promotion, the Times reports, "local Muslims will get discounted tickets to family-friendly evenings of music and sports with a Muslim theme. And in return, they mobilize their vast infrastructure of e-mail and phone lists, youth programs and chaperones, and of course their bus fleets, to help fill the stands."

Has kind of a different ring to it, doesn't it?

Cedric
06-07-2006, 06:16 PM
I'm not sure either...check out this article, though.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/02/opinion/main1678811.shtml

I don't understand the African American ballplayers part. I think it reeks of bad journalism. What does Mr. Coors have to do with the Rockies having African Americans on their team?

Not shocking from The Nation.

westofyou
06-07-2006, 06:21 PM
I don't understand the African American ballplayers part. I think it reeks of bad journalism. What does Mr. Coors have to do with the Rockies having African Americans on their team?

Not shocking from The Nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coors_Brewing_Company

Coors has a long history of labor strife that came to a head in the late 1970s with a nationwide boycott led by the AFL-CIO, the nation's largest union.[1] A Federal Lawsuit by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in 1975 ended in a settlement with the company agreeing not to discriminate against blacks, Mexican-Americans, and women.[2] By 1979, the boycott continued and the union was broken. [3]

Falls City Beer
06-07-2006, 06:30 PM
Not shocking from The Nation.

This kind of talk is what gets threads like this closed. Just MO.

Cedric
06-07-2006, 06:30 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coors_Brewing_Company

Coors has a long history of labor strife that came to a head in the late 1970s with a nationwide boycott led by the AFL-CIO, the nation's largest union.[1] A Federal Lawsuit by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in 1975 ended in a settlement with the company agreeing not to discriminate against blacks, Mexican-Americans, and women.[2] By 1979, the boycott continued and the union was broken. [3]

No, I understand the history of Coors. But wouldn't the Rockies history of treatment towards Black take precedent over anything else.

I honestly don't see how anyone could correlate the two on this issue.

Falls City Beer
06-07-2006, 06:35 PM
. I think it reeks of bad journalism.

.

It's an opinion piece.

37red
06-07-2006, 07:37 PM
Religion is more than just claiming belief in a deity. Religion is philosophy. There are as many different types of religion as there are different types of people. I'm not Christian and don't hold it against anyone who claims to or not to be. First and foremost I don't judge anyone by what "religion" they align themselves with, it hasn't proven to be a reliable standard. Everyone has to be measured individually, and measurements (sp) are made somewhat differently by different people.

"I think" a baseball organization representing a vast and variable culture should show respect for other's religions/philosophies by not aligning themselves with "basically one" out of literally 100's of thousands if not more various choices. Showing respect builds respect. Once they show alignment aren't they then taking a position? By taking a position isn't that being degrading towards other's beliefs? If that is being degrading doesn't that end up alienating some players and fans, some of which paid for the stadiums. I guess those with money and power can and do make alignments with who ever they darn well please, but that doesn't mean it's the proper or right thing to do.

I too find it humerous and elitist when teams or players thank who ever for taking sides saying they are better and more important than someone else, that's a philosophy I could personally live without.

Well if this wasnt' a bunch of philosophical philosophy then I don't know what is.

The umpire doesn't say kneel and pray or don't pray, he says "Play Ball"!

paulrichjr
06-07-2006, 07:39 PM
Just because I quote your post doesn't make it personal. I am not saying anything about you so I don't see why you offer your opinion about me.

Back to the topic...

Religious harrassment is no different than any other form of harrassment, as subtle as it may be. It has no place in the workplace.

Two prospects feel intimidated enough by the workplace "rules" (written or not) at Colorado to not want to go there. Either something is wrong or someone is seriously misinformed.

I never intended the word "You" to imply directly to you the poster. I was simply saying if "you can't handle it...."you being anyone. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

redsfanmia
06-07-2006, 07:41 PM
This kind of talk is what gets threads like this closed. Just MO.


If there is a policy on this board that forbids posts about religion than this thread should have already been closed IMO.

PickOff
06-07-2006, 07:42 PM
No, I understand the history of Coors. But wouldn't the Rockies history of treatment towards Black take precedent over anything else.

I honestly don't see how anyone could correlate the two on this issue.

Does that go for the entire article and thus make that entire article irrelevant? ("I think this reeks of bad journalism")

As far as OpEd pieces go, I absorb the information and take from it what I will.

You are right, though, there is plenty of bad journalism, but the writer here points out a fact and lets you decide whether there is a correlation. You decided there was not. Aren't you happy to know, however?

This is a national baseball story. A worthy topic that message boards are one of the few places where conversation can take place with a wide group of people. That's why boards are great - the connection and ability to get many viewpoints.

The posting of the article above just shows how important the issue is to some people, and how touchy the subject can be. I think it is facinating, and an interested study on how "character" and team conformity can contribute to performance on the field. It is not a scientific study, but worth looking at and discussing.

MartyFan
06-07-2006, 07:59 PM
Interesting points one and all.

The one thing the article says is that they are looking for character...they did not say they were looking for each and everyone of the players they employ to be a believer.

The criteria they use may be found in the bible but I know several organizations and top corporations use a similar character assesment but does not say it is from scripture.

Each year the leading motivational speakers to major business's and organizations have some sort of spiritual basis.

Why has faith become such a tabue subject? I think it is because of the way it has been exploited and pimped out by self serving, over glorified opportunists...it's a shame because in a persons faith there is real power...the power to make them their personal best.

If a team, business, organization, individual is willing to live by their convictions then so be it...there is a old proverb that says "Don't rock the boat and expect there to be no waves"...that is a Chinese proverb...if the Rockies want to draft people based on a character profile they certainly have the right to do so...it limits the number of players they will take and it limits the number of players who will sign...so if this is such a turn off or a problem it should work out well for the rest of the MLB teams.

TeamBoone
06-07-2006, 08:00 PM
Perhaps it's not against MLB rules, but aren't there laws against discrimination in hiring?

Also, I know certain players across all teams participate in/belong to some kind of Christian athlete coalition; football too (don't know about other sports). I remember reading about it back when Chris Reitsma was a Red. I don't remember the details though.

Nugget
06-07-2006, 08:20 PM
An interesting piece for you football (soccer) followers on what has become the main topic of this thread.

As many of you know Mickey (I mean Wayne) Rooney has injured his foot and was in doubt for the World Cup. He had an X-Ray this morning on it and came out smiling. No actual word on what the X-Ray said. But on of the papers came out with the headline THERE IS A GOD.

It appears that God is a soccer follower as well.

I have no issue with a clubhouse being guided by christian values just as long as they don't have compulsory conversion.

MartyFan
06-08-2006, 09:42 AM
I think God is FOR everyone.

God is not against anyone.

MartyFan
06-08-2006, 09:43 AM
An interesting piece for you football (soccer) followers on what has become the main topic of this thread.

As many of you know Mickey (I mean Wayne) Rooney has injured his foot and was in doubt for the World Cup. He had an X-Ray this morning on it and came out smiling. No actual word on what the X-Ray said. But on of the papers came out with the headline THERE IS A GOD.

It appears that God is a soccer follower as well.

I have no issue with a clubhouse being guided by christian values just as long as they don't have compulsory conversion.

My thoughts exactly.

smith288
06-08-2006, 09:54 AM
What teams are you talking about?
Its pretty common the clubhouse is a pretty loose place to go and male centric in terms of environment.

Maxims, foul language abounds from weight room, porn mags found in locker stalls. I have been around it before in a previous life.

My point is that the Rockies' clubhouse is seemingly being hammered for being the opposite of the norm in todays clubhouses where a more professional environment is enforced.

I think if you take Christianity out of the mix, this would be a non story. I think the main point of contention many people seem to have is the Christian aspect. Not that it's wrong, I just don't agree with the opposition of the Rockies philosophy regarding their organization.

Just one man's opinion.

Donning flame suit.

oneupper
06-08-2006, 10:08 AM
Its pretty common the clubhouse is a pretty loose place to go and male centric in terms of environment.

Maxims, foul language abounds from weight room, porn mags found in locker stalls. I have been around it before in a previous life.

My point is that the Rockies' clubhouse is seemingly being hammered for being the opposite of the norm in todays clubhouses where a more professional environment is enforced.

I think if you take Christianity out of the mix, this would be a non story. I think the main point of contention many people seem to have is the Christian aspect. Not that it's wrong, I just don't agree with the opposition of the Rockies philosophy regarding their organization.

Just one man's opinion.

Donning flame suit.

No need for the suit. It is a non-story without the religious angle. So, the Rox want to clean up the clubhouse. Fine.

My problem is when moral values are equated with religious beliefs and "character" is just a codeword for "Christian". I have a hard time believing that the Rox FO has made a distinction.

BTW, the story is getting quite a bit of play out there and many Rockies are not happy with their portrayal as no-fun goody goody two shoes.

zombie-a-go-go
06-08-2006, 10:12 AM
If there is a policy on this board that forbids posts about religion than this thread should have already been closed IMO.

Keep it friendly, non-personal, and firmly on the sports angle, and we can keep the thread open. As soon as one person hits the "report" button or things start getting hot, this thread gets closed.

It's been an interesting thread thus far. And I'm glad it's remained civil. But we will close it if we have to.

oneupper
06-08-2006, 10:21 AM
Here's another side of it.



Rockies say righteous story overblown



Chris Jenkins
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
June 4, 2006

While the Rockies were in San Diego last week, they found themselves in the odd position of trying to convince people they weren't all that righteous. A story in USA Today focused on the club's “Christian-based code of conduct,” a label that didn't sit well in the clubhouse that reportedly is no place for male-oriented magazines and the sort of colorful language so common in baseball and sports in general.

“I don't try to be a Christian to be a better baseball player,” said team leader Todd Helton, who admits to getting Maxim at his Coors Field locker. “I try to be a Christian to be a better person and father. I struggle with it every day like everyone else in the world.

“The story was overblown. I'm not sure what the guy was trying to do. We have good guys who show up every day to play hard and win. We're dirt bags, like 99 percent of the world. Maybe worse because we are baseball players. Some guys are Christians and some guys aren't.”
Although he turns into an unholy terror when pitching against the Padres, Jason Jennings is decidedly a religious fellow, a first-round draft choice out of Baptist stronghold Baylor University. “Over the top” was his assessment of the Christian caricature.

“A good teammate doesn't have to have the same beliefs you have,” Jennings said. “A good teammate is a good person who plays to win.”

Said General Manager Dan O'Dowd: “We look for players with character and ability. Ability is part of it. I have neighbors who are good people, but they can't hit a 95-mph fastball or throw a 92-mph sinker. . . . Character is nondenominational.”

RedsBaron
06-08-2006, 12:22 PM
Thanks for posting the article Oneupper.
A few years ago I read an article that stated that John Smoltz had persuaded his Braves teammates to not have porn on display in the locker room.

MartyFan
06-08-2006, 02:27 PM
I don't get why porn in the clubhouse or in public in general is so accepted...there is story after story of how that exact product has really harmed so many people....men and woman.

westofyou
06-08-2006, 02:39 PM
I don't get why porn in the clubhouse or in public in general is so accepted...there is story after story of how that exact product has really harmed so many people....men and woman.
Don't get on the subway in Japan. ;)

RBA
06-08-2006, 03:03 PM
Don't get on the subway in Japan. ;)


And cover your eyes when you go pass almost every street corner Kiosk in Greece. :eek:

Aronchis
06-08-2006, 05:03 PM
Martyfan, there ALWAYS has been porn. Porn simply is. I can argue is way to crass and materialistic nowadays, but some form has always lived.