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Ltlabner
06-07-2006, 02:50 PM
Throughout baseball history there have been players who contributed significantly to a teams success, but yet were lightning rods for fan complaints. Seemingly no matter what they did it was always "this guy is horrible at ABC" or "he stinks because he doesn't do XYZ".

Simularly, there have been players who quietly produced day in and day out. Year after year they played a valuable role on their team, and significantly helped that team win more games. They were passed over for all-star consideration, weren't fan favorites and were never considered for HOF voting.

So my question is, excluding our two favorite lightening rods in Cincinnati (because I'm sick of reading never-ending arguments over them) who are some of the players in baseball history that (1) Never could do enough and got nothing but complaints or (2) Were steady, solid ball players with great carears but never just made in into the "star" level ????

pedro
06-07-2006, 02:53 PM
Three current players who I am aware get a lot complaints from fans of their team are Andruw Jones (low BA, too many K's), Bobby Abreu (too many K's, too many BB's), Jim Edmunds (too many K's, low BA)

I think I'd take that as an OF.

EddieMilner
06-07-2006, 02:55 PM
Three current players who I am aware get a lot complaints from fans of their team are Andruw Jones (low BA, too many K's), Bobby Abreu (too many K's, too many BB's), Jim Edmunds (too many K's, low BA)

I think I'd take that as an OF.

I think those three are perenial All-Stars.

BCubb2003
06-07-2006, 02:56 PM
It's amazing to me that Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio got a hard time from their fans, to the point that Williams went Danny Graves on the Boston fans. Dave Winfield got his share of grief. And some guys were just scowling personalities who made it harder on themselves, like Richie Allen and Eddie Murrary.

dabvu2498
06-07-2006, 02:57 PM
I think those three are perenial All-Stars.
I agree. I don't see any of those three as under appreciated.

BRM
06-07-2006, 02:59 PM
I agree. I don't see any of those three as under appreciated.

They are by quite a few of their team's fans. Go to a Philly message board and they are ripping Abreu.

Cedric
06-07-2006, 03:01 PM
It's not anything new. A team's best player will always get a little more heat than the rest of the team on any small flaw.

pedro
06-07-2006, 03:01 PM
I think those three are perenial All-Stars.


That is true, so maybe it doesn't meet the strict definition from the original post, but none the less I have heard a lot of grumbling about those three from fans of each team. What I believe that illustrates is that when you are an active fan of a particular team and you have to watch guys fail 65% of the time (which they all do) it sometime causes you to not appreciate what a guy brings to the team while fans not so close to the situation will look at a guys stats and say "hey, he's pretty good"

pedro
06-07-2006, 03:01 PM
I agree. I don't see any of those three as under appreciated.


I think you'd be surprised.

captainmorgan07
06-07-2006, 03:01 PM
underapreciated player joe crede for the white sox solid defensive thirdbasemen ronnie belliard in cleveland doesn't get enough credit eric byrnes of arizona all this man does is make great plays in the outfield or atleast he used to he constantly hustles all over the place

dabvu2498
06-07-2006, 03:03 PM
Braves fans - nuff ced.

Philly fans - ditto

Cards fans - I'm surprised by their ripping of Edmonds.

guttle11
06-07-2006, 03:03 PM
Three current players-
Austin Kearns
Morgan Ensberg
Michael Barrett

pedro
06-07-2006, 03:05 PM
Braves fans - nuff ced.

Philly fans - ditto

Cards fans - I'm surprised by their ripping of Edmonds.

Braves fans are famously misinformed. I know, I lived there for 10 years.

Classic Braves fan quote " boy that Deion sure is fast! What do they call that.. a triple?"

PickOff
06-07-2006, 03:09 PM
Rafael Palmeiro
John Olerud
Jack Clark

and...

Ryan P. Freel

dabvu2498
06-07-2006, 03:14 PM
I'm just going to throw this out there and I might get drilled for it, but one way to be underaprreciated is to not be on a winning team.

Cyclone792
06-07-2006, 03:15 PM
So my question is, excluding our two favorite lightening rods in Cincinnati (because I'm sick of reading never-ending arguments over them) who are some of the players in baseball history that (1) Never could do enough and got nothing but complaints or (2) Were steady, solid ball players with great carears but never just made in into the "star" level ????

I'll have to think on some others, but for the first question, Mike Schmidt immediately comes to mind. He was heavily criticized in Philly, heck he probably still is criticized in Philly, despite the fact that he's likely the greatest third baseman ever to play.

The second question seems to me like a parallel to under-appreciation so I may not be throwing accurate names out there. However, guys that come to mind in that mold would be Tim Raines, Bobby Grich, Jimmy Wynn and Rusty Staub. Grich should be in the HOF, Raines absolutely deserves to make it but may not, Wynn was greater than a truckload of center fielders already in, and while Staub may not be exactly HOF level, he'd be a much better candidate than a guy like Andre Dawson who gets a ton of support and definitely does not belong.

Highlifeman21
06-07-2006, 04:36 PM
They are by quite a few of their team's fans. Go to a Philly message board and they are ripping Abreu.

We're light on Dunn compared to the abuse Abreu takes from the Philly Phaithful on a daily basis.

The rants on Bobby A are comical.

1. Lazy in the field
2. Ks too much
3. Doesn't walk enough
4. Doesn't steal enough bases
5. After winning that HR Derby, doesn't hit enough HR
6. Feel he plays only for the money

When Godzilla broke his wrist for the Yanks, the outcry for Abreu to take a trip up 95 over the GW Bridge, to Jerome Ave was like whoa.

reds77
06-07-2006, 05:28 PM
Andy Van Slyke. He was a great defensive player, had a strong arm, could run, could hit for power and average. He made a few all-star teams, but was never the dominating star of the late 80s or early 90s.

top6
06-07-2006, 05:44 PM
I dont think most Reds fans ever fully appreciated Eric Davis until the tail end of his career.

Spitball
06-07-2006, 06:38 PM
I dont think most Reds fans ever fully appreciated Eric Davis until the tail end of his career.

I believe Davis was appreciated early but fans grew tired of the injuries. The thing was Davis dove for balls and always went all out. When a player plays like Davis did, injuries happen.

KronoRed
06-07-2006, 06:41 PM
I dont think most Reds fans ever fully appreciated Eric Davis until the tail end of his career.
I'd change that to when he was retired

MartyFan
06-07-2006, 06:45 PM
When George Foster was playing here he was as was Senior...I am not certain that the fans rode them or anything like that but when you had personalities like Rose, Morgan, Bench on a team it would be hard to shine through

2001MUgrad
06-07-2006, 07:39 PM
I think it could be said A-Rod. Granted I don't watch many Yankees games but I hear how Yankee fans complain about him chocking in the clutch situations. Maybe its true, maybe its not. But he is always in the hunt for the MVP every year and has been rode like a dog since he got in NY.

wolfboy
06-07-2006, 08:49 PM
I'll have to think on some others, but for the first question, Mike Schmidt immediately comes to mind. He was heavily criticized in Philly, heck he probably still is criticized in Philly, despite the fact that he's likely the greatest third baseman ever to play.

The second question seems to me like a parallel to under-appreciation so I may not be throwing accurate names out there. However, guys that come to mind in that mold would be Tim Raines, Bobby Grich, Jimmy Wynn and Rusty Staub. Grich should be in the HOF, Raines absolutely deserves to make it but may not, Wynn was greater than a truckload of center fielders already in, and while Staub may not be exactly HOF level, he'd be a much better candidate than a guy like Andre Dawson who gets a ton of support and definitely does not belong.

Tim Raines was one of the first that came to mind. I don't know if this one goes in this category, but Dave Winfield had nothing but turmoil while in NY. I don't think Bert Blyleven was ever a first ballot kind of guy, but he hasn't gotten any respect from the HOF voters. I think he should.

deltachi8
06-07-2006, 09:00 PM
Couple ones just off the top of my head, I dont recall (maybee because I was young at the time) Dale Murphy being appreciated as a league MVP. (I still use my Dale Murphy model glove to this day).

Also, Roger Maris in 1961. While I wasnt around then, what I have read and heard makes me feel like one of the best seaosn ever was just not truly appreciated at the time. He also had a hell of a 1960 (MVP).

I also agree on ARod. Too many focus on his paycheck and not his actual production.

MWM
06-08-2006, 12:26 AM
I think Barry Larkin is one of the most underappreciated players in baseball history, and even in Cincinnati.

OnBaseMachine
06-08-2006, 07:01 AM
I think Barry Larkin is one of the most underappreciated players in baseball history, and even in Cincinnati.

Agreed 100%. Larkin is a Hall of Famer in my book. You agree?

BTW, good to see you around these parts again, MWM!

Cyclone792
06-08-2006, 07:14 AM
MWM and OBM are absolutely correct.

How I left Barry Larkin out of my post with Raines, Grich, Wynn and Staub, I have no idea, but as I posted here on RedsZone a few months back (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42221), Larkin is definitely a Hall of Famer and one of the most underappreciated players of all-time in my book.

TeamCasey
06-08-2006, 07:47 AM
I think utility players like Freel and DMitri Young go underappreciated.

MrCinatit
06-08-2006, 07:54 AM
I'm going to go with guys who will never make it to the Hall, but were pretty good players.
Garry Maddox, Lou Pinella, Al Cowens, Curt Flood, Ted Abernathy, ElRoy Face, Jorge Orta (for some reason, I was always a fan of this guy), Vada Pinson (why this guy always got ignored, I can hardly figure - though he did get overshadowed by that Robinson guy), Al Oliver, Bill Bucker (too bad he is remembered for that grounder), Mike Marshall (the reliever), Willie and Tommy Davis, Matty Alou, Al Bumbery (again, I always liked the guy), Cecil Cooper, Don Wilson and J.R. Richards, Bert Blyleven (how is he not in the hall?), Bob Friend (on a better team...), Camilo Paschal, Mario Soto (BIG TIME), Paschal Perez...egads, I could literally go on forever.
If many of these guys had put up the same number in the 1930s, they would have been shoo-ins for the HOF.

edabbs44
06-08-2006, 07:59 AM
MWM and OBM are absolutely correct.

How I left Barry Larkin out of my post with Raines, Grich, Wynn and Staub, I have no idea, but as I posted here on RedsZone a few months back (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42221), Larkin is definitely a Hall of Famer and one of the most underappreciated players of all-time in my book.
Larkin was underappreciated for years until he got that ludicrous contract from Linder. Then he quickly became overappreciated, at least by Carl. I would love to see Larkin get to the Hall and definitely think he deserves it, but being voted in will be tough. The numbers aren't outstanding and he was injured too much throughout his career (which I think go hand in hand). I'm hoping the voters look at the player and not only the numbers, but I have a bad feeling he will only make it in by the Vet Committee.

PS: Cyclone, who is that chick in your picture?

OnBaseMachine
06-08-2006, 08:25 AM
Larkin was underappreciated for years until he got that ludicrous contract from Linder. Then he quickly became overappreciated, at least by Carl. I would love to see Larkin get to the Hall and definitely think he deserves it, but being voted in will be tough. The numbers aren't outstanding and he was injured too much throughout his career (which I think go hand in hand). I'm hoping the voters look at the player and not only the numbers, but I have a bad feeling he will only make it in by the Vet Committee.

PS: Cyclone, who is that chick in your picture?

Larkin deserved that ludicrous contract extension in 2000 because he was vastly underpaid his previous 15 years in the major leagues.

That chick under Cyclone's name is Erin Andrews of ESPN. Yes, she is extrenely hot and she loves baseball. My dream girl.

edabbs44
06-08-2006, 08:27 AM
Larkin deserved that ludicrous contract extension in 2000 because he was vastly underpaid his previous 15 years in the major leagues.

That chick under Cyclone's name is Erin Andrews of ESPN. Yes, she is extrenely hot and she loves baseball. My dream girl.
He might have deserved it but it was terrible to think of how much $$$ was going to Larkin and Griffey during those years and how much production was coming out of it.

Cyclone792
06-08-2006, 08:52 AM
That chick under Cyclone's name is Erin Andrews of ESPN. Yes, she is extrenely hot and she loves baseball. My dream girl.

^^^ What OBM said :D

OnBaseMachine
06-08-2006, 09:04 AM
she is extrenely hot

She is also extremely hot.

dabvu2498
06-08-2006, 09:08 AM
I would like to submit Cal Ripken for contemplation. Everyone tends to focus on the Streak (which is justified) and not the fact that he was such a good player both offensively and defensively.

The HOF Monitor on baseball-reference.com has him listed as the #25 position player of all time. Higher than I would have guessed.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/hof_monitor.shtml

dfs
06-08-2006, 10:28 AM
(1) Never could do enough and got nothing but complaints ????

Doesn't Danny Driessen jump out at you?

We never, ever forgave him for not being Tony Perez, but he was a decent player in his own right.

We could probably throw Ron Oester in the same pot.

Reds management and fans have never forgiven Brett Tomko for not being 20% better than he actually is.

The #2 category....that's a bit tougher. Stars are often a creation of the media and the press doesn't always look for the best players, but the ones that give the best quotes.