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HotCorner
06-09-2006, 03:26 PM
Per Lance's blog ...


The Reds today recalled from Class AAA Louisville IF Ray Olmedo...he takes the roster spot vacated by 3B Edwin Encarnacion, who went on the 15-day disabled list, retroactive to Wed, with a sprained left ankle

Matt700wlw
06-09-2006, 03:32 PM
Too bad I wasn't near a computer at 1:15 this morning...I could have broken this as "inside information" :D

max venable
06-09-2006, 03:34 PM
bummer.

flyer85
06-09-2006, 03:40 PM
one of the nice things with this team is there is depth. I'm sure Freel/Aurilia can handle it for the next two weeks

reds44
06-09-2006, 03:43 PM
one of the nice things with this team is there is depth. I'm sure Freel/Aurilia can handle it for the next two weeks
Yep I am sure they will do fine. Just sucks EE got hurt. :(

captainmorgan07
06-09-2006, 03:59 PM
we need ee for the stretch run and we need him healthy ankles can be tricky once they are injured so if he takes it easy gets his swings in and keeps sharp he will be fine as soon as he returns ra can hold down third along with freel/olmedo

KronoRed
06-09-2006, 04:03 PM
This is all a plot to keep EE down and give 3rd base to Rich

;)

Hope EE gets well soon, we're gonna miss him.

Jpup
06-09-2006, 04:08 PM
it must be much worse than he thought. The plan was for him to come back tonight, I guess were stuck with Rich until EdE comes back.

What if Rich plays very well in the next two weeks? Does EdE stay in Louisville? Surely not.

btw, it's also time Denorfia gets called up.

WebScorpion
06-09-2006, 04:11 PM
I hear Rey Rey is on a tear right now. Could be nice to have him in the infield for a bit. In other years, Rey would have been on the team and we'd be calling up a Gary Patchett or an Andy Beattie now... :D

Matt700wlw
06-09-2006, 04:12 PM
btw, it's also time Denorfia gets called up.

Put him where? He needs to play everyday, and right now, it's not going to happen up here.

KronoRed
06-09-2006, 04:15 PM
You give Deno Q's at bats, he has nothing left to do in Louisville.

KronoRed
06-09-2006, 04:16 PM
What if Rich plays very well in the next two weeks? Does EdE stay in Louisville? Surely not.

We shall see ;)

RANDY IN INDY
06-09-2006, 04:16 PM
"Q" ain't gettin many at bats.

reds44
06-09-2006, 04:17 PM
What if Rich plays very well in the next two weeks? Does EdE stay in Louisville? Surely not.

no

KronoRed
06-09-2006, 04:19 PM
"Q" ain't gettin many at bats.
42 on the year, and done very little with them, if the Reds are in a "win now" mode wouldn't it help to have the backup OF be someone who might hit the ball?

CougarQuest
06-09-2006, 04:33 PM
Too bad I wasn't near a computer at 1:15 this morning...I could have broken this as "inside information" :D
You know, eventually we'll get tired of you slacking on your priorities here

:p: :D

reds44
06-09-2006, 04:36 PM
42 on the year, and done very little with them, if the Reds are in a "win now" mode wouldn't it help to have the backup OF be someone who might hit the ball?
Yes.

I really don't know why Q is on this team.

RANDY IN INDY
06-09-2006, 04:37 PM
42 on the year, and done very little with them, if the Reds are in a "win now" mode wouldn't it help to have the backup OF be someone who might hit the ball?

And you are sure that Denorfia is equipped to handle the pinch hitting role? I'm not saying he can't, but it is far from a sure thing. If he stays ready at AAA, his chance will come, and then it's up to him to knock down the wall.

KronoRed
06-09-2006, 04:37 PM
Yes.

I really don't know why Q is on this team.
Veteran leadership.

reds44
06-09-2006, 04:37 PM
And you are sure that Denorfia is equipped to handle the pinch hitting role? I'm not saying he can't, but it is far from a sure thing. If he stays ready at AAA, his chance will come, and then it's up to him to knock down the wall.
He was 2-2 pinch hitting with the Reds if I remember correctly.

KronoRed
06-09-2006, 04:39 PM
Also 10-38 last year with 6 walks.

Be nice to have that on the bench

RANDY IN INDY
06-09-2006, 04:41 PM
He was 2-2 pinch hitting with the Reds if I remember correctly.

Now if I were a statistician, I would probably quote that wonderful line, but I wont.;) If I remember right, "Q" handled his first couple of pinch hitting opportunities pretty well, too.

Guys, I'm not saying that Denorfia can't handle the job, but I am of the opinion that in his case, he is better off playing every day in AAA than sitting on the bench in Cincinnati. It is hard enough to get Freel the outfield time he deserves as it is.

OnBaseMachine
06-09-2006, 04:42 PM
That stinks.

This probably ends Edwin's bid for the Reds single season double record of 51 held by Pete Rose and Frank Robinson. Edwin was on pace for 56.

reds44
06-09-2006, 04:43 PM
That stinks.

This probably ends Edwin's bid for the Reds single season double record of 51 held by Pete Rose and Frank Robinson. Edwin was on pace for 56.
He'll get it eventually.

Kid has been amazing for us this year at such a younger age. His future is os bright I got to wear shadez. :cool:

CrackerJack
06-09-2006, 04:57 PM
Bummer about EE, good time for Nature boy to be on a major hot streak.

Q is to Krivsky as Romano was to DanO.

Every GM has their man crush. :)

KronoRed
06-09-2006, 04:58 PM
/\ Don't forget Jimbo and Reggie Taylor :D

RANDY IN INDY
06-09-2006, 05:01 PM
I don't see Krivsky being too enamored with anyone over any long period if they don't produce.

Doc. Scott
06-09-2006, 05:02 PM
Olmedo deserved a callup anyway. He's hitting .344.

RANDY IN INDY
06-09-2006, 05:07 PM
Olmedo deserved a callup anyway. He's hitting .344.

En fuego!:beerme:

Joseph
06-09-2006, 05:07 PM
I hope Little O gets some starts. He's my favorite player that has no logical reason to be a favorite player. [Which basically means regulars not included]

Crosley68
06-09-2006, 05:15 PM
As if we needed another reason to always triple the real severity described by anyone associated with the team when discussing injuries.l

Patrick Bateman
06-09-2006, 05:54 PM
it must be much worse than he thought. The plan was for him to come back tonight, I guess were stuck with Rich until EdE comes back.



There was never any plan for EE to play tonight. They were going to evalualte him this weekend. There's was no need to rush him back with our depth, and bettert o get him properly healed.

reds44
06-09-2006, 06:12 PM
Olmedo deserved a callup anyway. He's hitting .344.
Dang that is better then Deno (I think.)

KronoRed
06-09-2006, 06:13 PM
Nobody is better then Deno

Crash Davis
06-09-2006, 06:53 PM
He needs to play everyday, and right now, it's not going to happen up here.

Why does he need to play everyday? So every player coming up from the minors -- regardless of development, age, experience, baseball IQ, and handle on fundamentals -- must play everyday to have a role on the team?

I don't see why Denorfia would need to play everyday, but Ryan Langerhans didn't when he came up. Or Brady Clark. Or any number of players who had nothing left to learn in the minor leagues.

captainmorgan07
06-09-2006, 11:52 PM
olmedo slapped a double in his plate apperance tonite

buckeyenut
06-10-2006, 07:07 AM
He'll get it eventually.

Kid has been amazing for us this year at such a younger age. His future is os bright I got to wear shadez. :cool:

I don't think he will. In a couple of years, he is going to get a little stronger and a number of those doubles are going to turn into HRs. That is what typically happens when you see young players who hit a lot of doubles.

It also looks like all those clamoring for Deno might get their wish too, since Austin might headed to DL. Nice to have guys like Olmedo and Deno who can come up and help and we don't miss a beat.

I do want Lopez and Phillips to get a day or two off while Olmedo is up here. They haven't had a lot of time off and he is a solid backup defensively and on fire offensively.

GAC
06-10-2006, 07:21 AM
According to Kremcheck and the medical staff - it's not that serious, but could keep EE out about a week. So they DL'd him retro to Wednesday. That way they can bring up a body (Olmedo).

Good move. EE will be back soon enough.

And how about that Jay Bruce at Dayton? Playing some solid ball! :thumbup:

Jpup
06-10-2006, 09:28 AM
There was never any plan for EE to play tonight. They were going to evalualte him this weekend. There's was no need to rush him back with our depth, and bettert o get him properly healed.

EdE said that he would be back by Friday in an interview on Wednesday. It didn't go as planned.

reds44
06-11-2006, 05:54 PM
0-3 since EE went on the DL.

Maybe he is more important then we (Narron) thought.

edabbs44
06-11-2006, 05:55 PM
0-3 since EE went on the DL.

Maybe he is more important then we (Narron) thought.
Not sure he would have made a difference today. Bullpen help. That is the main thing holding this team back.

reds44
06-11-2006, 05:56 PM
Not sure he would have made a difference today. Bullpen help. That is the main thing holding this team back.
We haven't scored the last 2 days. With his bat speed, he makes a difference against Marmol and Zambrano. RA went 0-5 yesterday, EE does better then that.

reds44
06-12-2006, 11:44 PM
Cough

0-4


cough

membengal
06-13-2006, 11:09 AM
Bumpity bump bump.

0-4 indeed. Cough.

Heath
06-13-2006, 11:21 AM
Veteran Scrappy Leadership trumps 0-for-12, right?

Hatteburg's looking gassed as well.

RedFanAlways1966
06-13-2006, 11:24 AM
Perhaps EE should have been sent to the BP rather than the DL when he sprained that ankle?!?!? ;)

KronoRed
06-13-2006, 04:19 PM
Veteran Scrappy Leadership trumps 0-for-12, right?

Hatteburg's looking gassed as well.
Rich stinks when given a job, check the start of last year :evil:

reds44
06-13-2006, 11:25 PM
0-5

could have used him in the 9th.

reds44
06-14-2006, 05:00 PM
1-5

didn't exactly burn up the scoreboard today.

Hoosier Red
06-15-2006, 12:06 PM
I'm not sure I understand the logic. He wouldn't have been able to play until Monday. So they're really 1-2 since he "could" have come back.

Joseph
06-15-2006, 01:32 PM
I'm not sure I understand the logic. He wouldn't have been able to play until Monday. So they're really 1-2 since he "could" have come back.

I think the point is that Aurilia and Hatteberg aren't everyday players. They were solid in the platoon role, but being used on a daily basis isn't their forte anymore. They need additional days off. So rather than DL'ing EE, they should have played short handed a couple days, having Freel start at 3rd with RA and Hatt keeping their platoon working until EE was able to play again.

Now of course this is a moot point if EE is more severely injured than we were led to believe.

Hoosier Red
06-15-2006, 01:37 PM
I understand. Just pointing out the first three losses would have happened with or without EE on the DL.(He wouldn't have been playing anyway.)

You can't have it both ways and I prefer to have guys who we know can be in the lineup from the start.
If they didn't DL EE, what happens if he's still a little sore Monday? or Tuesday?
What if it turns out it's better for him to get some rest for a solid week. Would you have liked to be shorthanded until yesterday?

I'd rather make a good decision, get EE time to recuperate, and play at full strength for the whole 2 weeks.

membengal
06-15-2006, 02:35 PM
The larger observation I was making is simply that EE is far more important to this team's success and the offenses success in particular than some give credit for.

GAC
06-15-2006, 03:03 PM
So rather than DL'ing EE, they should have played short handed a couple days

But acting on Kremchek's prognosis, it wasn't going to be a couple days, but more like a week. So they err on the side of caution by calling up Olmedo, who hasn't done bad at all.

reds44
06-15-2006, 03:14 PM
The larger observation I was making is simply that EE is far more important to this team's success and the offenses success in particular than some give credit for.
Yep that was all I was getting at also.

EE is more important to this team then many believe.

KronoRed
06-15-2006, 05:06 PM
I'd rather see Olmedo play 3rd and bat cleanup :evil:

KronoRed
06-16-2006, 10:49 PM
1-6 for those keep track at home.

OnBaseMachine
06-18-2006, 03:05 PM
Not close yet: It's unlikely third baseman Edwin Encarnacion will be activated from the 15-day disabled list when he becomes eligible on Thursday. Encarnacion, out with a sprained left ankle since June 6, took ground balls in a brief session Sunday morning with bench coach Bucky Dent.

Reds manager Jerry Narron was also watching.

"He might not have pain, but to me, it just didn't look like he's 100 percent," Narron said.

Encarnacion isn't scheduled to be with the team on this week's trip to New York.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060618&content_id=1511697&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Phhhl
06-18-2006, 03:22 PM
Not close yet: It's unlikely third baseman Edwin Encarnacion will be activated from the 15-day disabled list when he becomes eligible on Thursday. Encarnacion, out with a sprained left ankle since June 6, took ground balls in a brief session Sunday morning with bench coach Bucky Dent.

Reds manager Jerry Narron was also watching.

"He might not have pain, but to me, it just didn't look like he's 100 percent," Narron said.

Encarnacion isn't scheduled to be with the team on this week's trip to New York.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060618&content_id=1511697&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

With Aurilia out, they had better have more of a sense of urgency about this. Why project where he may be on Thursday when it's Sunday? That's four days. If it's nothing but a sprain, that should be plenty of time.

They better hope Edwin is ready Thursday. This club needs him back in the lineup.

KronoRed
06-18-2006, 04:59 PM
1-8 now in the EE less era.

Matt700wlw
06-18-2006, 05:01 PM
1-8 now in the EE less era.


I don't think EE is a relief pitcher...I don't know what he could have done to salvage this homestand.

KronoRed
06-18-2006, 05:09 PM
He could will the bullpen to pitch better? ;)

reds44
06-18-2006, 08:14 PM
1-8

Please get back EE!


Btw I just got back from Cincy. Bad weekend.

reds44
06-18-2006, 09:21 PM
Not close yet: It's unlikely third baseman Edwin Encarnacion will be activated from the 15-day disabled list when he becomes eligible on Thursday. Encarnacion, out with a sprained left ankle since June 6, took ground balls in a brief session Sunday morning with bench coach Bucky Dent.

Reds manager Jerry Narron was also watching.

"He might not have pain, but to me, it just didn't look like he's 100 percent," Narron said.

Encarnacion isn't scheduled to be with the team on this week's trip to New York.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060618&content_id=1511697&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin
:confused:

Is he not looking fine, or does Narron want to see more of RA?

I don't care if he isn't 100%, if he doesn't feel any pain he has to be close. Being 1-8 without him isn't all bullpen, we miss his bat in the lineup.

reds44
06-18-2006, 09:39 PM
And the contradicting statements continue from EE and Narron.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060616&content_id=1508879&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin


Getting closer: Encarnacion reported that he's made progress recovering from his ankle sprain.

"I think I'm very close," said Encarnacion, who is batting .270 with six homers and 36 RBIs in 53 games. "I'll be ready on [June 22 --his eligible activation date from the DL]. I've been hitting in the indoor cage. I feel great."


That is from 2 days before the tidbit OBM posted.

Why are EE and Narron not on the same page?

KronoRed
06-18-2006, 10:08 PM
Cause Castro and Aurilia are gonna split time at 3rd? ;)

Expect EE to be on a rehab assignment.

reds44
06-18-2006, 10:41 PM
Expect EE to be on a rehab assignment.
Yep it looks that way.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060618/SPT04/606180415/1071/SPT04


Edwin Encarnacion (left ankle) said that in "two to three days" he will get some at-bats in either Louisville or Double-A Chattanooga.

KronoRed
06-18-2006, 11:04 PM
How long can they send him down there?

reds44
06-18-2006, 11:11 PM
How long can they send him down there?
A looooooooooooooooong time. Remember Cody Ross?

I can't imagine he is down there for more then a couple days though.

KronoRed
06-18-2006, 11:12 PM
I can ;)

Reds Nd2
06-19-2006, 12:30 AM
How long can they send him down there?

20 days for position players and 30 days for pitchers, subject to the limitations contained in Article XIII(H) of the CBA. See page 60 of the CBA here. (http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/pdf/cba_english.pdf) (Warning: PDF file)

reds44
06-21-2006, 12:14 AM
2-9 now

KronoRed
06-21-2006, 01:05 AM
Someone mentioned it on another thread how so miuch was made out of Rich being out and the team slumping, however here we have EE out and not a work said about it

Strange.

Not that I think EE could help this horrible bullpen, but it's strange.

reds44
06-21-2006, 01:16 AM
Someone mentioned it on another thread how so miuch was made out of Rich being out and the team slumping, however here we have EE out and not a work said about it

Strange.

Not that I think EE could help this horrible bullpen, but it's strange.
The Reds are averaging 3.5 runs per game without EE. The offense misses him, alot.

Patrick Bateman
06-21-2006, 01:18 AM
This isn't neccessarily a direct correlation to EE being injured. As a whole the team isn't hitting very well. EE coming back may help, but only incrementally. On a game to game basis, EE wont help that average all that much. He might help a little bit, but collectively, the team needs to hit better.

KronoRed
06-21-2006, 01:20 AM
I'd just like to see something written about it like it was with Rich ;)

Patrick Bateman
06-21-2006, 01:22 AM
I'd just like to see something written about it like it was with Rich ;)

I know. Those articles were pretty entertaining.

TOBTTReds
06-21-2006, 01:24 AM
This isn't neccessarily a direct correlation to EE being injured. As a whole the team isn't hitting very well. EE coming back may help, but only incrementally. On a game to game basis, EE wont help that average all that much. He might help a little bit, but collectively, the team needs to hit better.

I completely agree with what you are saying.

Buuuut, we were playing exactly like this when Richie was out, and people on here, and on TV were all about, "the Reds miss Rich so bad, once he comes back it will be great. We really miss his bat." Even I was starting to believe it, and I despise the guy.

I think when he comes back it will be a boost they way it was when RA came back. We desperately need him back.

I don't believe there will ever be a day in the world where George Grande says we miss Edwin's bat, no matter how good he gets.

Patrick Bateman
06-21-2006, 01:30 AM
I completely agree with what you are saying.

Buuuut, we were playing exactly like this when Richie was out, and people on here, and on TV were all about, "the Reds miss Rich so bad, once he comes back it will be great. We really miss his bat." Even I was starting to believe it, and I despise the guy.

I think when he comes back it will be a boost they way it was when RA came back. We desperately need him back.

I don't believe there will ever be a day in the world where George Grande says we miss Edwin's bat, no matter how good he gets.

You might have something there. Maybe mentally the Reds would get a spark.

reds44
06-22-2006, 02:01 PM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060622/SPT04/606220351/1071


EDDIE UPDATE: Edwin Encarnacion is eligible to come off the DL today, but he won't.

"Hopefully, next week," Narron said. "We don't know for sure. But he won't be activated Thursday."

Encarnacion might do a short rehab stint at Triple-A Louisville.

"He's progressing," trainer Mark Mann said. "He's not 100 percent. We're waiting till he's 100 percent to send him to Louisville."

The Reds have struggled since Encarnacion went on the DL June 9 with a sprained left ankle.

The club is 28-22 when he starts at third base. The Reds are 11-11 when Encarnacion does not start.

"Edwin did a great job for us, especially in April," Reds manager Jerry Narron said. "He got a lot of big RBI."

knuckler
06-22-2006, 10:23 PM
I've gotta believe that with Aurilia not fully healthy, the medical staff really and truly believes that EE isn't able to play, because the team clearly needs him. Castro just doesn't have the bat to be a starter.

KronoRed
06-22-2006, 11:00 PM
He's not a solid vet, solid vets get different treatment ;)

Ron Madden
06-23-2006, 03:43 AM
The main problem I have with Narron is that he lacks the guts to put youmg players in the position to help this club win ballgames.

reds44
06-23-2006, 03:50 AM
I don't get why we had to put EE on the DL because we didn't want to play with 24 players, but we could play with 24 players when Rich is hurt.

Sure Edwin isn't 100%, but not alot of players are at this point in the year.

Ron Madden
06-23-2006, 06:00 AM
I don't get why we had to put EE on the DL because we didn't want to play with 24 players, but we could play with 24 players when Rich is hurt.

Sure Edwin isn't 100%, but not alot of players are at this point in the year.

It's hard to understand just what Narron is thinking most of the time.

At one time I thought Narron was a fair mix of an Old School Manager and a Manager that studied and understands the numbers. (I no longer believe that.)

Jerry wants to take his chances with the older guys, you know solid vets that do the "little things" like standing at their position and feilding balls hit right at'em.

The only reason he starts Phillips and Ross is because Wayne got them here. Both Phillips and Ross have produced very well but Jerry has them hitting 7th & 8th most of the time.

Edwin has great range at 3rd base.

Edwin hits for extra bases.

Edwin is young and Narrons new Boss didn't bring Edwin here.

reds44
06-24-2006, 07:58 PM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060624&content_id=1520934&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin



CLEVELAND -- Reds third baseman Edwin Encarnacion's sprained left ankle has continued to be bothersome and has prevented him from beginning a rehabilitation assignment in the Minors.
Encarnacion was eligible to be activated from the 15-day disabled list Thursday, which was when the club hoped to send him to Triple-A Louisville first to get some at-bats.

That hasn't happened yet. It remains unclear when the assignment would begin.

"Right now, we're progressing him at his tolerance," Reds head trainer Mark Mann said Saturday. "Once he can run the bases on back-to-back days, pain-free, and says he feels good, that's when we'll send him out on a rehab."

Encarnacion took live batting practice, thrown by pitchers Paul Wilson and Grant Balfour, on Thursday with Class A Dayton.

The 23-year-old, who is batting .270 with six home runs and 36 RBIs, hurt his ankle running the bases on June 7 at St. Louis. The injury was diagnosed as a mild sprain, and Encarnacion was placed on the DL because the club didn't want to be short-handed for a week.

"The diagnosis hasn't changed," Mann said. "It's just a matter of him being comfortable with how he feels and how his ankle responds to treatment."


So it seems as if it could be any day.

oneupper
06-24-2006, 08:50 PM
After bringing in Juan Castro, reactivating EE creates a roster problem.
Before Castro, it was simple...Olmedo went down.
Now who goes?

KronoRed
06-25-2006, 12:06 AM
After bringing in Juan Castro, reactivating EE creates a roster problem.
Before Castro, it was simple...Olmedo went down.
Now who goes?
Well it certainly won't be one of the 3 catchers, it won't be Hat,Aurilia or Castro, won't be Q since they need an OF, Freel is hot right now.

Hmm..EE to AAA? ;)

TeamBoone
06-25-2006, 02:31 AM
After bringing in Juan Castro, reactivating EE creates a roster problem.
Before Castro, it was simple...Olmedo went down.
Now who goes?

I don't see a roster problem as Castro is used mostly as a late inning defensive player. EE goes back to third and Aurilia/Hatteberg tanden at first, and Rich fills in when needed at other infield positions... just like they were doing when EE was playing every day.

KronoRed
06-25-2006, 02:35 AM
But someone has to go down to clear roster space.

TeamBoone
06-25-2006, 02:37 AM
But someone has to go down to clear roster space.

About 5 or 6 of the guys in the bullpen would solve the roster spot. :p:

KronoRed
06-25-2006, 02:38 AM
About 5 or 6 of the guys in the bullpen would solve the roster spot. :p:
:laugh:

deltachi8
06-25-2006, 11:27 AM
I was thinking of the roster spot thing yesterday at the game while staring at the active roster. IMHO, the Reds will chose one of two things, 1) a BP arm and go with 11 pitchers or 2) EE will be sent to AAA.

I have a feeling they will milk every one of his 20 days on rehab to make a move.

oneupper
06-25-2006, 11:35 AM
I was thinking of the roster spot thing yesterday at the game while staring at the active roster. IMHO, the Reds will chose one of two things, 1) a BP arm and go with 11 pitchers or 2) EE will be sent to AAA.

I have a feeling they will milk every one of his 20 days on rehab to make a move.

Only an injury or a trade will get us EE back any sooner. :(

Tony Cloninger
06-25-2006, 11:43 AM
An injury or a trade will not bring him up any sooner....... if he is really hurt and not able to play at least 90%.

I hope RA gets hurt more.....so they can put him on the DL... and then they will bring up Olmedo again and show everyone that yes... EE is really hurt and there is no conspiracy to want to play RA. Batting 4th RA is stupid....but trying to force EE to play faster and hurt himself more would be more stupid.

oneupper
06-25-2006, 11:53 AM
An injury or a trade will not bring him up any sooner....... if he is really hurt and not able to play at least 90%.

I hope RA gets hurt more.....so they can put him on the DL... and then they will bring up Olmedo again and show everyone that yes... EE is really hurt and there is no conspiracy to want to play RA. Batting 4th RA is stupid....but trying to force EE to play faster and hurt himself more would be more stupid.

I don't like anyone getting hurt, not even RA.
I doubt there is a conspiracy to play RA over EE, but we can't deny that there is a roster problem created with Castro's arrival. EE's injury was not supposed to be so bad. He is already hitting...

How many games in L'Ville before he comes up?

Remember Cody Ross? His pinky was healed in a few days, but he managed to get 15 games (50 AB) in at L'ville because there was no space for him on the roster. When time was up someone had to be traded. I turned out to be him.

I'm not saying EE will be traded, but he will rehab for a lot longer than needed while roster space clears up.

Tony Cloninger
06-25-2006, 12:06 PM
If they do not can a pitcher......or get rid of Castro or RA.....then I will fall in line with what most people are thinking.

I have seen Narron quoted as saying that they miss EE's bat......and talking up his numbers in regards to it. That is why i am having a hard time believing that they are over playing his injury just so RA or Castro can stay on the roster.

reds44
06-25-2006, 01:22 PM
I don't like anyone getting hurt, not even RA.
I doubt there is a conspiracy to play RA over EE, but we can't deny that there is a roster problem created with Castro's arrival. EE's injury was not supposed to be so bad. He is already hitting...

How many games in L'Ville before he comes up?

Remember Cody Ross? His pinky was healed in a few days, but he managed to get 15 games (50 AB) in at L'ville because there was no space for him on the roster. When time was up someone had to be traded. I turned out to be him.

I'm not saying EE will be traded, but he will rehab for a lot longer than needed while roster space clears up.
I believe the conspiracy. Maybe Edwin isn't 100%, but I bet he can play. He has a sprained ankle that will probably linger for months, you can't hold him out until he is 100%. The fact that RA contiues to bat 4th shows that Narron has no want to get Edwin back.

reds44
06-25-2006, 01:33 PM
He won't be back Tuesday.


ENCARNACION PLAN: Narron said Edwin Encarnacion definitely will not be activated Tuesday when the Reds return home.

He might not even be on a rehab assignment by then. The Reds want him to be able to run the bases on back-to-back days before he goes on a rehab stint.



http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060625/SPT04/606250386/1071

KronoRed
06-25-2006, 04:10 PM
I don't think we see EE till after the allstar break, He'll be in AAA for a while

WebScorpion
06-26-2006, 09:56 AM
Once EE starts his rehab assignment, he pretty much controls his own destiny. They know what he can do when he's seeing the ball well; If he goes down on rehab and starts tearing the cover off the ball he won't be there long. I believe he is truly unable to play right now because delaying his rehab assignment doesn't really gain anything. Without EE in the lineup we arte more vulnerable to power lefties, Kearns and EE are our only real insurance against certain left-handed pitchers. I know Griff and Dunn are not completely inept against most lefties, but there are a few guys who we can only scratch out 3 or 4 hits against, and EE could be the difference maker in a game like that.

reds44
06-26-2006, 02:10 PM
Big day for Edwin today, if he can run the bases pain free he will go out on rehab tomorrow and rejoin the team for the Battle of Ohio this weekend. If he does have pain, he won't be back for a week at the earliest.

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060626/SPT05/606260324/1027


CLEVELAND - When Edwin Encarnacion sprained his left ankle running the bases in St. Louis on June 6, he said he thought he'd be ready to go in a "couple days."

When Encarnacion was placed on the disabled list June 9, he expressed surprise because he was feeling "better."

Encarnacion was eligible to come off the DL last Thursday, but he has yet to go out on a rehab assignment, and won't do so until Tuesday at the earliest. Even that is predicated on Encarnacion being able to run the bases two days in a row without problems. He was scheduled to try Sunday and again today.

Reds trainer Mark Mann said Encarnacion hasn't aggravated the injury or been bothered by anything else that he's aware of.

"His complaints have all been of soreness," said Mann. "The original diagnosis has not changed."

Even if Encarnacion is able to go out on rehab Tuesday, he probably wouldn't join the Reds until the weekend series against Cleveland at the earliest.

Marc Lancaster

reds44
06-26-2006, 04:47 PM
1360 Homer says Edwin will begin a rehab stint in Louisville tomorrow. Should return to lineup for the Tribe series this weekend.

:beerme:

BRM
06-26-2006, 04:47 PM
1360 Homer says Edwin will begin a rehab stint in Louisville tomorrow. Should return to lineup for the Tribe series this weekend.

:beerme:

Good news. :thumbup:

KronoRed
06-26-2006, 05:00 PM
Great to hear :D

KronoRed
06-26-2006, 05:01 PM
Still have to wonder who goes down, hopefully a catcher or a pitcher.

registerthis
06-26-2006, 05:01 PM
Still have to wonder who goes down, hopefully a catcher or a pitcher.

Maybe we can dispatch a catcher and ask him to take a pitcher with him when he goes.

reds44
06-26-2006, 05:02 PM
Still have to wonder who goes down, hopefully a catcher or a pitcher.
Javy or Q should go. Hopefully both and get Deno up here as well.

OnBaseMachine
06-30-2006, 08:34 AM
Well, it appears me and countless others were correct when we said that Narron would continue to make excuses in order to get Aurilia more playing. EE said he was ready to play three or four days after the injury, and now Narron is making it out as a serious injury. I'm not buying it.

Injury update

• Reds third baseman Edwin Encarnacion wonŐt come back from rehab this weekend, because he isnŐt quite 100 percent (left ankle sprain) yet. Narron and the team want Encarnacion to be fully recovered and getting as many at-bats (at Class AAA Louisville) as he can.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/063006redsnotesweb.html

oneupper
06-30-2006, 08:45 AM
Well, color me unsurprised...

But I won't blame Narron for this. Rather, it's Krivsky's acquisition of Castro that has the 25 man roster full to the brim.

Now he's making time to see if he can get a deal done. EdE could be in L'ville for quite a while (see Ross, Cody)...

GAC
06-30-2006, 09:08 AM
Well, it appears me and countless others were correct when we said that Narron would continue to make excuses in order to get Aurilia more playing. EE said he was ready to play three or four days after the injury, and now Narron is making it out as a serious injury. I'm not buying it.

Injury update

• Reds third baseman Edwin Encarnacion wonÕt come back from rehab this weekend, because he isnÕt quite 100 percent (left ankle sprain) yet. Narron and the team want Encarnacion to be fully recovered and getting as many at-bats (at Class AAA Louisville) as he can.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/063006redsnotesweb.html


Are you actually suggesting that there was some sort of "conspiracy" with EE (to exagerate his injury), in order to give RA more playing time?

That's simply laughable.

And it wasn't Narron who originally came out and said the injury was more serious then thought. Narron (and Krivsky) was simply repeating what came from the team medical staff.

Krivsky last week said that while EE was much improved, he still couldn't run the bases without pain. Why activate him where they may be a chance he could re-aggravate it?

OnBaseMachine
06-30-2006, 09:13 AM
Are you actually suggesting that there was some sort of "conspiracy" with EE (to exagerate his injury), in order to give RA more playing time?

That's simply laughable.

Krivsky last week said that while EE was much improved, he still couldn't run the bases without pain. Why activate him where they may be a chance he could re-aggravate it?

It's not that farfetched, IMO. It's well known that Narron is in love with Aurilia and isn't a big fan of EE and his defense at third. I'm far from the only individual on this board to suggest this. EE said he would only miss a few days while Narron has milked it out to over two weeks. Something is fishy.

Ltlabner
06-30-2006, 09:22 AM
It's not that farfetched, IMO. It's well known that Narron is in love with Aurilia and isn't a big fan of EE and his defense at third. I'm far from the only individual on this board to suggest this. EE said he would only miss a few days while Narron has milked it out to over two weeks. Something is fishy.

So because others have suggested it, that makes it true? Someone please suggest I am worth a $48 million contract!

And because EE throught it would be 2 days doesn't mean much. How many pitchers on this team have said "I'm fine, couldn't feel better" after they've been struggling a while...only to find they have some medical issue. EE's not going to say "why yes, I think I need 3 weeks off" when asked about his injury.

OnBaseMachine
06-30-2006, 09:24 AM
So because others have suggested it, that makes it true? Someone please suggest I am worth a $48 million contract!


Nope, I don't believe I said that.

Ltlabner
06-30-2006, 09:29 AM
It's not that farfetched, IMO. It's well known that Narron is in love with Aurilia and isn't a big fan of EE and his defense at third. I'm far from the only individual on this board to suggest this. EE said he would only miss a few days while Narron has milked it out to over two weeks. Something is fishy.

I believe your 3rd sentance is an attempt to strenthen your argument that Narron's screwing over EE by saying that lot's of other people have made the same claim. As if somehow that lends credibility to it.

OnBaseMachine
06-30-2006, 09:35 AM
I believe your 3rd sentance is an attempt to strenthen your argument that Narron's screwing over EE by saying that lot's of other people have made the same claim. As if somehow that lends credibility to it.

Nope.

Simply stated that I'm not the first person to bring it up, as if I'm out to get Narron. I never said that makes it more believable.

Ltlabner
06-30-2006, 09:47 AM
Simply stated that I'm not the first person to bring it up, as if I'm out to get Narron. I never said that makes it more believable.

Nor did I claim that you said it would make it more belieavable. But the implication is clearly that because others have suggested the same thing that there must be a grain of truth to it. No one was accusing you of being out to get Narron, they were questioning your assertion that Narron is purposly keeping EE on the DL.

But I must get going now. I have to read my latest issue of "Paranoia Magazine".

GAC
06-30-2006, 09:47 AM
It's not that farfetched, IMO. It's well known that Narron is in love with Aurilia and isn't a big fan of EE and his defense at third.

Where has it ever been suggested, other then on here, that Narron is not a big fan of EE at 3B?

I have also seen quite a few on here talk up EE's errors (immaturity/inexperience) at 3B.

You make it sound like Narron is purposely out to get EE. I see it as a manager simply realizing this kid's inexperience at the position, and the fact he doesn't want him to get overwhelmed and down on himself - so we have guys that can give him a "spell" at 3B when needed.

EE is the 3Bman of the future for this team.... and I think Narron realizes that too.


I'm far from the only individual on this board to suggest this.

So? Quantity doesn't mean it's correct? ;)


EE said he would only miss a few days

And EE is a qualified member of the medical staff? He isn't the first player to possibly understate the extent of any injury in hopes of a quick return. I commend him for that attitude; but he was obviously wrong.


while Narron has milked it out to over two weeks. Something is fishy.

Who controls the DL? Have you read any of the comments, well publicized in the local Cincy media, by the Red's medical staff (including Kremcheck), and Krivsky?

You assign Narron more power/authority then I think he possesses. ;)

OnBaseMachine
06-30-2006, 10:02 AM
Narron basically threatened to bench EE a few weeks back because of his defense. That doesn't exactly convince me he is Edwin's biggest fan. I would rather he instill patience towards a young player like Edwin rather than tell him he is going to lose his job if he continues to play inconsistent on defense. And Edwin knows how his body feels. If he says he is fine then let him play. When Weathers got hurt and said he would only miss a few days I didn't see Narron and staff placing him on the DL.

Ltlabner
06-30-2006, 10:07 AM
I would rather he instill patience towards a young player like Edwin rather than tell him he is going to lose his job if he continues to play inconsistent on defense.

Now that I can agree with. EE is clearly a player for the future while RA is not. EE needs to confidence of knowing he's the guy and time to grow and firgure things out. Lopez too. I don't care for the managerial style of "if you don't stop doing XYZ you'll be out of here!". It just makes people tense and all they are thinking about is "don't do XYZ, don't do XYZ, don't do XYZ". And you know what typically happens.....they do XYZ.

Chip R
06-30-2006, 10:08 AM
Narron basically threatened to bench EE a few weeks back because of his defense. That doesn't exactly convince me he is Edwin's biggest fan. I would rather he instill patience towards a young player like Edwin rather than tell him he is going to lose his job if he continues to play inconsistent on defense. And Edwin knows how his body feels. If he says he is fine then let him play. When Weathers got hurt and said he would only miss a few days I didn't see Narron and staff placing him on the DL.

Seems like Aurilia was activated from the DL at the first opportunity they had regardless of whether he still had some pain or not.

Ltlabner
06-30-2006, 10:12 AM
Seems like Aurilia was activated from the DL at the first opportunity they had regardless of whether he still had some pain or not.

Yes, but "seems like" and "what really went on behind the sceens" can be two different things.

Hoosier Red
06-30-2006, 10:17 AM
Aurillia was activated because he was a platoon player. Aurillia not being at a 100% means he comes off the bench more.
I actually think that's why they're waiting to bring EE back. Can you imagine the gnashing of teeth if EE came off the DL and sat on the bench for a week?

BuckeyeRedleg
06-30-2006, 10:19 AM
How come he can play in Louisville, but not here? If it's about rust, I understand. If it's about getting the ankle better, why is he playing ball (anywhere) at all?

His ankle doesn't know the difference between AAA and the big leagues, right?

GAC
06-30-2006, 10:40 AM
Narron basically threatened to bench EE a few weeks back because of his defense. That doesn't exactly convince me he is Edwin's biggest fan.

Where did Narron say this at?

I remember a game early in the season where EE stunk the place up (made some really bad mental mistakes/decisions which cost us a game single-handedly), and everyone on here was screaming that he needed to be benched, not as punishment, but more to sit back, gather his thoughts, rethink some of the decisions he made out there.

That is what a manager is suppose to do with rookies who appear to be struggling/pressing. Give young players a "time out" to rethink/gather themselves.




I would rather he instill patience towards a young player like Edwin rather than tell him he is going to lose his job if he continues to play inconsistent on defense.

Where did Narron say this at? Seems like you're trying to read something into that isn't there.

EE, prior to going on the DL, played in 53 games, with 182 Abs at 3B.

Yeah - Narron has it out for him.


And Edwin knows how his body feels. If he says he is fine then let him play.

And if he is not fine, and ends up costing us games.... or really aggravates the "none existent" injury, then what?

Here's EE's "diagnosis", which shows he's not qualified to be making the final decision...

ST. LOUIS - Edwin Encarnacion limped out of Busch Stadium with a plastic brace supporting his left ankle Tuesday.

The Reds third baseman suffered a mild ankle sprain running the bases in the fifth inning, and afterward said he did not expect to play today.

"I heard a sound, like a crack, and I thought it was broke," Encarnacion said. "Luckily I'm all right."

"I think in a couple days it will be all right," Encarnacion said. "(Today) I'm not going to do anything. Then after we get back to Cincinnati we'll see how it feels."

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006606070345

I trust the medical staff's evaluation/recommendations over what a player may say.

[QUOTE[When Weathers got hurt and said he would only miss a few days I didn't see Narron and staff placing him on the DL.[/QUOTE]

So that confirms a conspiracy, orchestrated by Narron, against EE?

Here's who made/makes those calls....

Proactive Krivsky puts Encarnacion on DL

CINCINNATI — Dawdling isn’t a character trait of Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky.

A case in point occurred yesterday afternoon when third baseman Edwin Encarnacion arrived at Great American Ball Park and learned he was headed to the 15-day disabled list because of a sprained left ankle.

"I’m just going off the advice of our medical people and our training staff," Krivsky said. "They felt like it was going to at least be a week. That’s a little too long to play short (a man). If it was just the weekend, that would be a different deal. To go seven days or more, I don’t think we want to do that."

http://www.dispatch.com/reds/reds.php?story=dispatch/2006/06/10/20060610-E7-02.html

GAC
06-30-2006, 10:43 AM
How come he can play in Louisville, but not here? If it's about rust, I understand. If it's about getting the ankle better, why is he playing ball (anywhere) at all?

His ankle doesn't know the difference between AAA and the big leagues, right?

They stated the other day that while much improved, he still is having pain running the bases.

He can still play at Louisville, while being on the DL, and it was a simple rehab assignment. This way they can test the ankle and make sure it is fit before prematurely activating him. Smart and logical move IMO.

I swear... this forum proposes more conspiracy theories then Oliver Stone! :lol:

BuckeyeRedleg
06-30-2006, 10:54 AM
They stated the other day that while much improved, he still is having pain running the bases.

He can still play at Louisville, while being on the DL, and it was a simple rehab assignment. This way they can test the ankle and make sure it is fit before prematurely activating him. Smart and logical move IMO.

I swear... this forum proposes more conspiracy theories then Oliver Stone! :lol:

No conspiracy theory here. Just asking a question. If it was the ankle and not rust, maybe he should be resting it and not playing in AAA. I guess what I'm saying is that, if he's in pain and still playing down there, he might as well be playing up here. Hell, I'll take him at 80-90%.

reds44
06-30-2006, 01:00 PM
Well, it appears me and countless others were correct when we said that Narron would continue to make excuses in order to get Aurilia more playing. EE said he was ready to play three or four days after the injury, and now Narron is making it out as a serious injury. I'm not buying it.

Injury update

• Reds third baseman Edwin Encarnacion wonÕt come back from rehab this weekend, because he isnÕt quite 100 percent (left ankle sprain) yet. Narron and the team want Encarnacion to be fully recovered and getting as many at-bats (at Class AAA Louisville) as he can.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/063006redsnotesweb.html
My question would be,

Why is he healthy enough to play in Louisville, but not for the Reds? I understand why you wanted him down there for a couple days to test his ankle and get his timeing back, but why do you just let him sit down there and play?


They stated the other day that while much improved, he still is having pain running the bases.

He can still play at Louisville, while being on the DL, and it was a simple rehab assignment. This way they can test the ankle and make sure it is fit before prematurely activating him. Smart and logical move IMO.

I swear... this forum proposes more conspiracy theories then Oliver Stone! :lol:
He's played 3 games (1 day after night game), and felt fine. It's not like he played 1 game.

oneupper
06-30-2006, 01:03 PM
My question would be,

Why is he healthy enough to play in Louisville, but not for the Reds? I understand why you wanted him down there for a couple days to test his ankle and get his timeing back, but why do you just let him sit down there and play?

Answer: FULL ROSTER.

reds44
06-30-2006, 01:06 PM
Answer: FULL ROSTER.
If that is the reason, Narron and Krivsky are stupid. When you have guys like McCracken, Castro, 3 catches, and 5 terrible bullpen pitches, you can release one of them to get your 23 year old stud up here.

WMR
06-30-2006, 02:15 PM
If that is the reason, Narron and Krivsky are stupid. When you have guys like McCracken, Castro, 3 catches, and 5 terrible bullpen pitches, you can release one of them to get your 23 year old stud up here.

Don't forget that Krivsky and Narron are on the same page about everything.

:thumbdown

membengal
06-30-2006, 02:22 PM
If that is the reason, Narron and Krivsky are stupid. When you have guys like McCracken, Castro, 3 catches, and 5 terrible bullpen pitches, you can release one of them to get your 23 year old stud up here.

Standing ovation on this post from me. Succinct and spot on.

flyer85
06-30-2006, 03:17 PM
Answer: FULL ROSTER.real answer: The powers that be like Aurilia better at 3b.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-30-2006, 05:15 PM
real answer: The powers that be like Aurilia better at 3b.

And that scares the hell out of me and thus limits the enthusiasm I have for how far this leadership will take us in the future.

Cedric
06-30-2006, 05:58 PM
And that scares the hell out of me and thus limits the enthusiasm I have for how far this leadership will take us in the future.

And it's nowhere near proven fact. Never even been uttered.

Edwin played the vast majority of games at 3b even when he was having a very rough stretch in the field.

I think this is a non issue. Why not give Edwin another week to get ready and get live action?

oneupper
06-30-2006, 05:58 PM
If that is the reason, Narron and Krivsky are stupid. When you have guys like McCracken, Castro, 3 catches, and 5 terrible bullpen pitches, you can release one of them to get your 23 year old stud up here.

The only guy mentioned that has a role similar to EE's is Castro. He just got here. With the pitchers we already saw...one gets released, but is replaced by another pitcher. McCracken is your PH/PR off the bench (Castro can't really go into that role). And the three catchers...well, Krivsky hasn't been able to deal anyone...yet.

And this is the reason the Castro deal was so bad. If that deal hadn't gone down, Olmedo would still be around and go down when EE came back.

EE will be back when the roster clears, not when his ankle heals. Sad, but it's the truth. The fact that Narron really likes Aurilia doesn't help either.

reds44
06-30-2006, 06:31 PM
The only guy mentioned that has a role similar to EE's is Castro. He just got here. With the pitchers we already saw...one gets released, but is replaced by another pitcher. McCracken is your PH/PR off the bench (Castro can't really go into that role). And the three catchers...well, Krivsky hasn't been able to deal anyone...yet.

And this is the reason the Castro deal was so bad. If that deal hadn't gone down, Olmedo would still be around and go down when EE came back.

EE will be back when the roster clears, not when his ankle heals. Sad, but it's the truth. The fact that Narron really likes Aurilia doesn't help either.
Which, if that in fact is the truth, is the dumbest move this team has made all year. Edwin was your best offensive player when he was healthy. Not to mention the fact the he is only 23.

I hope to God what you are saying is not the truth.

Cedric
06-30-2006, 06:35 PM
Which, if that in fact is the truth, is the dumbest move this team has made all year. Edwin was your best offensive player when he was healthy. Not to mention the fact the he is only 23.

I hope to God what you are saying is not the truth.

He wasn't better than Dunn and there is no way he will be in Louisville for long.

OnBaseMachine
06-30-2006, 06:37 PM
Where did Narron say this at? Seems like you're trying to read something into that isn't there.

Narron's quote was along the lines of, "Guys will start losing their jobs if they don't start playing better defense." This quote was after EE made an error that allowed a run to score in a 3-0 loss to the Diamondbacks at the end of May. Unfortunately I couldn't find the article.

GAC
06-30-2006, 06:40 PM
And it's nowhere near proven fact. Never even been uttered.

Edwin played the vast majority of games at 3b even when he was having a very rough stretch in the field.

I think this is a non issue. Why not give Edwin another week to get ready and get live action?

Cut it out Cedric! That is too logical. Krivksy and Narron are out to get EE.

You're ruining everyone's fun. :lol:

reds44
06-30-2006, 06:40 PM
He wasn't better than Dunn and there is no way he will be in Louisville for long.
This is a post I made 4 days ago, so the numbers are alittle old, but you will get the point. It was a post about who should bat clean-up.




So with Edwin going on rehab, it means he will probably be back this weekend. I know it probably seems as if I am Edwin obsessed, but the guy means alot to out offense. Lets check out our numbers since he went on the DL (Saturday June 10th before the Cubs game).

Runs scored by game-
2
3
5
4
3
4
6
1
4
2
6
2
3
0
4

15 games, 49 runs
3.2 RPG
Our record in that strech is 5-10

Now we all know the Reds haven't had a consistent 4 hitter all year. We have tried Dunn, Kearns, Edwin, and we as we all know, Rich.

Now lets break down that 4 some's numbers.
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4804/11113st.png
Out of the group Edwin has the best BA, tied for the best OBP, and is second in slugging behind Dunn.

Now ovbiously the AB's aren't even, but I'm gonna break it down.

AB per HR:
Kearns- 21.1
Dunn- 10.9
Edwin-30.8
Rich-19.4

AB per RBI:
Kearns- 6.3
Dunn- 5.8
Edwin- 5.1
Rich-6.0

Now ovbiously Edwin's HR totals are on the low side, but does that really matter since he drives in so many runs as it is?

AB per Double:
Kearns-15.2
Dunn-21.8
Edwin- 9.7
Rich-14.5

Edwin is the only of the group with a triple, so here is the Extra Base Hits stats.

AB per XBH
Kearns- 8.8
Dunn- 7.2
Edwin- 7.1
RA- 8.3

After compaling all those stats, it is clear that the only 2 logical choices are Dunn or Edwin. They are 1/2 in most every major stastical category. So then my question is what is the job of a "Clean-up hitter" to clean up the runners off the bases.

Lets look at Dunn and Edwin's numbers with men on base.

Dunn- .181/.358/.834
Edwin- .339/.449/1.023




Even if I give you Dunn, then Edwin was our 2nd best offensive player. No way he should have to wait until a roster spot clears to get him up here. You clear a space to get him up here, you don't wait until something happens that allows you to bring him up here.

Cedric
06-30-2006, 06:43 PM
Cut it out Cedric! That is too logical. Krivksy and Narron are out to get EE.

You're ruining everyone's fun. :lol:

It's going to take time for people to get away from the DanO mindset of this team.

Granted we've still had some questionable decisions, basically Q McCracken and allowing Womack to ever start a game.

Overall though it's gonna take time for the average Redszoner to show even a little faith in this organization.

GAC
06-30-2006, 06:47 PM
Narron's quote was along the lines of, "Guys will start losing their jobs if they don't start playing better defense." This quote was after EE made an error that allowed a run to score in a 3-0 loss to the Diamondbacks at the end of May. Unfortunately I couldn't find the article.

And this defense didn't deserve that warning?... though the quote I heard didn't reference anyone losing their jobs.

Have you seen how bad this defense is, and really was in the early stages of the season?

How many games would you figure this defense has cost us this year?

He didn't single anyone out because it was several guys; but did what any manager should do... raise some hell!

Again - if he was out to get EE, then EE wouldn't have been playing 3B an overwhelming majority of the time, up until the ankle injury. Yet he was.... not Aurilia. Aurilia was splitting time at 1B when EE was healthy.

When EE comes back, you'll see this kid back at 3B AGAIN. ;)

GAC
06-30-2006, 06:50 PM
No way he should have to wait until a roster spot clears to get him up here. You clear a space to get him up here, you don't wait until something happens that allows you to bring him up here.

And where has it been stated anywhere, but on here, that this was what the Reds were doing?

I think some of you are making a mountain out of a mole hill on this.... I really do.

reds44
06-30-2006, 06:55 PM
And where has it been stated anywhere, but on here, that this was what the Reds were doing?

I think some of you are making a mountain out of a mole hill on this.... I really do.
Because everybody keeps saying he hasn't had a setback. We have been hearing he hasn't had any setbacks for a week and a half now.

And why is he ok to play in Louisville, but not Cincy? He has played in 3 cosecutive days, and one was a day game after a night game. Also the article says he won't be back all weekend, how do they know he won't be ready to come back? How is he ok to play 6 games in AAA (which he will by the end of the weekend), but not in the majors?

Hoosier Red
06-30-2006, 07:00 PM
Ever sprain an ankle? There aren't any set backs necessarily but it's still pretty dang sore for a good two weeks.
All they are doing is making sure he's 100% ready to go when he does come back, because it makes no sense for him to come up and sit on the bench. If he can't go 100% they probably don't want him starting 5-6 nights a week.

Phhhl
06-30-2006, 07:02 PM
This is a bleeping joke. They are stonewalling the kid because of the throwing errrors. Give him 500 ab's and he'll make a big difference in the win-loss record of this team. This might be my only gripe with Narron right now, but it's big enough to make me question his competence as a manager.

reds44
06-30-2006, 07:14 PM
Ever sprain an ankle? There aren't any set backs necessarily but it's still pretty dang sore for a good two weeks.
All they are doing is making sure he's 100% ready to go when he does come back, because it makes no sense for him to come up and sit on the bench. If he can't go 100% they probably don't want him starting 5-6 nights a week.
Yes I did last year when I stepped on 2nd base awkwardly. It took a good 2 weeks to be fully recovered. Now we don't play games everyday (3 or 4 a week) like MLB, but I only missed 4 games.

Edwin has been out for over 3 weeks now, and has played 3 in a row in AAA. He is ok to play.

flyer85
06-30-2006, 08:10 PM
Edwin has been out for over 3 weeks now, and has played 3 in a row in AAA. He is ok to play.if the powers that be weren't comfortable with Aurilia at 3rd then EE would be playing in Cincy tonight. The fact that he isn't tells you all you need to know.

GAC
06-30-2006, 08:14 PM
if the powers that be weren't comfortable with Aurilia at 3rd then EE would be playing in Cincy tonight. The fact that he isn't tells you all you need to know.

Yep. He's on a rehab assignment. ;)

flyer85
06-30-2006, 08:53 PM
EE batting .400 and playing his 4th game in a row. He ought to be ready in another 8 to 10 days.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-30-2006, 09:12 PM
You don't rehab an ankle by playing.

You can either play on it or you can't. It's not like he tore his labia.

reds44
06-30-2006, 09:16 PM
EE batting .400 and playing his 4th game in a row. He ought to be ready in another 8 to 10 days.
2 weeks min.

reds44
06-30-2006, 10:58 PM
Rich goes 0-5 tonight.

Maybe Edwin will be "ready" Saturday.

KronoRed
06-30-2006, 11:46 PM
No way, 0-5? he's not gonna be ready till September

Castro for 3rd?

;)

Ron Madden
07-01-2006, 04:44 AM
And that scares the hell out of me and thus limits the enthusiasm I have for how far this leadership will take us in the future.

Took the words right outta my mouth.

Ron Madden
07-01-2006, 05:11 AM
if the powers that be weren't comfortable with Aurilia at 3rd then EE would be playing in Cincy tonight. The fact that he isn't tells you all you need to know.

I agree wirh Flyer85 here.

Narron loves Ritchie almost as much as GAC does. It's really shameful. ;)

GAC
07-01-2006, 05:44 AM
Because everybody keeps saying he hasn't had a setback. We have been hearing he hasn't had any setbacks for a week and a half now.

Saying that someone hasn't had any setbacks does not mean they are 100%.

My son just had surgery on his right leg. We've had him back in for two post-op follw-ups. The Dr says he's progressing fine with no setbacks; but the boy still is far from 100%.


And why is he ok to play in Louisville, but not Cincy?

Because it's a rehab assignment. Ever hear of a player going on those?


He has played in 3 cosecutive days, and one was a day game after a night game. Also the article says he won't be back all weekend, how do they know he won't be ready to come back?

Because it's their job to know maybe? Have you examined his ankle? Are you trained in sports medicine?

You're giving superficial observations from the outside looking in.

And I understand EE is probably your favorite player. I really like this kid too. But I think you're letting your "love" for this guy kinda subvert sound judgment here.

Being involved in sports myself (playing and coaching), I've seen sprained ankles (depending on the exact location) that can be very pesky and bothersome to an athlete for 2-3 weeks easily. They can recover very quickly, and be able to do most activities while certain others still prove to be bothersome and nagging.

I think that is exactly what is going on with EE right now.

Especially for an athlete who depends on it for running, pivoting, and playing a critical position such as 3B.

Last weekend it was reported that the ankle was still bothersome for EE, that he was having difficulty running the bases, and prevented him from beginning a rehabilitation assignment at Louisville.

"Right now, we're progressing him at his tolerance," Reds head trainer Mark Mann said Saturday. "Once he can run the bases on back-to-back days, pain-free, and says he feels good, that's when we'll send him out on a rehab."

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060624&content_id=1520934&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

I could show you other statements made by others on the team medical staff (and have), but I think it would be to no avail.

Because some are convinced there is some sort of insideous scheme behind all of this.

This kid played 51 games at 3B prior to the injury. Doesn't that demonstrate patience and basically a "vote of confidence" in him by Narron?

He has put up some darn good offensive numbers also....

In 185 ABs he has 50 hits (20 xtra base hits), 6 Hrs, 36 RBIs, 89 TBs, while putting up a respectable .845 OPS.

His fielding at 3B has been somewhat erratic (14 errors), which is expected for a rookie.

But there is no way you, or anyone else on here, is gonna convince me that Krivsky (or Narron) has it out for EE - or have no confidence in him - and want to supplant Aurilia as their 3Bman.

You've really shown not one shrewd of evidence to back this accusation up at all.

The fact that he has performed well for 3-4 games at Louisville is evidence?

To most of us it's evidence of a good sign that he is doing quite well, and will probably be activated over the next few days.

Krivsky would be an idiot to allow that to happen. But I've listened to both Krivsky (and Kremcheck) on this situation a few times in pre-games, and they are anxious to get him back up here.

Will he help this team? He sure will. But the last I looked, we are basically tied for 1st place with the Cards, and Krivsky is just being precautionary with EE.

So take a deep breath.... and be far more concerned about this bullpen. ;)

GAC
07-01-2006, 06:03 AM
I agree wirh Flyer85 here.

Narron loves Ritchie almost as much as GAC does. It's really shameful. ;)

I know you may be just kidding around; but can you show me where I have stated anywhere where I wanted RA at 3B, or for that matter, a daily starting role on this team?

Can you can show me where Narron has given a majority of the playing time at 3B to Aurilia over EE, when EE was here/healthy?

Up until EE going on the DL, the majority of RA's playing time has been at 1B, in a platoon role with Hatteberg. And between the two of them, they are putting up decent numbers for what we are paying them.

So yeah, I'm somewhat satisfied with what they have done there.

And when EE comes back, RA's role will be going back to what it was before.

In love with Aurilia? Get real. :lol:

But in 54 games he has given us...

50 hits (13 xtra bases), 10 Hrs, 31 RBIs, 91 TBs, and a .801 OPS

That is not terrible my friend.

I'm just not an obsessive compulsive Aurilia basher.

Check out my avatar. It's what some on this forum need IMO. ;)

Ron Madden
07-01-2006, 07:01 AM
I know you may be just kidding around; but can you show me where I have stated anywhere where I wanted RA at 3B, or for that matter, a daily starting role on this team?

Can you can show me where Narron has given a majority of the playing time at 3B to Aurilia over EE, when EE was here/healthy?

Up until EE going on the DL, the majority of RA's playing time has been at 1B, in a platoon role with Hatteberg. And between the two of them, they are putting up decent numbers for what we are paying them.

So yeah, I'm somewhat satisfied with what they have done there.

And when EE comes back, RA's role will be going back to what it was before.

In love with Aurilia? Get real. :lol:

But in 54 games he has given us...

50 hits (13 xtra bases), 10 Hrs, 31 RBIs, 91 TBs, and a .801 OPS

That is not terrible my friend.

I'm just not an obsessive compulsive Aurilia basher.

Check out my avatar. It's what some on this forum need IMO. ;)


Just joking with you. :) I'm really sorry if I offended you.

GAC
07-01-2006, 07:05 AM
Just joking with you. :) I'm really sorry if I offended you.

No offense taken Ron. I've just had people misinterpreting that I'm an Aurilia "lover" because I had an Aurilia avatar up there for awhile... and they didn't realize the "joke" that was behind putting it up. ;)

But there is no way that I want RA at 3B when EE comes back. And I don't think it's gonna happen because it didn't prior to EE going down.

We have a problem, IMO, at the cleanup spot (run producer).

And I have highly advocated before that it should be EE.

Aurilia should consistently be in the bottom half of this batting order; but I understand Narron putting (or trying) him there (especially with EE down) when not to many have produced there on a consistent basis when inserted there.

I thought they might try BP there when EE went on the DL.

I think it is a problem for us right now.

reds44
07-01-2006, 03:06 PM
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060701/SPT05/607010379/1035


TAKING HIS TIME - Edwin Encarnacion's rehab assignment hit the road Friday night, though the trip wasn't too overwhelming.

Encarnacion joined Louisville in Columbus as the Bats began a four-game series against Dave Miley's Clippers. No one is sure how long Encarnacion will remain on rehab, but Narron said he would be "shocked" if the third baseman isn't back before the All-Star break.

Reports indicated Encarnacion still has a bit of a limp on his sprained left ankle, and the Reds won't move to activate him until that is alleviated. At the same time, they want to make sure he's back in baseball shape by getting him as many at-bats as possible.

Krivsky drew a parallel between Encarnacion and Matt Belisle, who made six relief appearances before coming off his rehab assignment even though his sore lower back felt better early on.

"Yeah, we could have brought Belisle back after one or two outings," said Krivsky. "But you make sure he's right and now we bring him back and he can really help us."

KronoRed
07-01-2006, 05:07 PM
Be prepared to be shocked

GAC
07-01-2006, 06:20 PM
That article basically exonerates Narron, as far as who makes the decisions on players/DL/rehab assignments. If the decision was Narron's then he wouldn't be shocked. He'd know. ;)

And it's obvious that he isn't 100% if he still is walking with a limp. If he can't plant the foot well in order to pivot, and especially throw, then it's gonna make playing/fielding 3B pretty tough.

I'm listening to Kremcheck, who is doing the TV pre-game, and he said that EE will be down at Louisville at least another week for observation. He said the ankle is doing really well, but is still having some minor problems with range/motion on the ankle. It's all about strengthening right now.

reds44
07-01-2006, 06:51 PM
Uh-huh Doc Hollywood on the pregame show said EE's ankle "Feels great and in no pain. He needs to get at bats and get in baseball shape."

Hmmmm

flyer85
07-01-2006, 07:23 PM
Uh-huh Doc Hollywood on the pregame show said EE's ankle "Feels great and in no pain. He needs to get at bats and get in baseball shape."

Hmmmmlike I said, they are very happy with their current 3B situation.

WMR
07-01-2006, 07:36 PM
like I said, they are very happy with their current 3B situation.

Catch the new flick, Beer League, starring Artie Lange w/ an extended cameo by Rich Aurilia at the hot corner.

http://images.countingdown.com/images/countdowns/movies/3626550/1011/3881135_main.jpg

KronoRed
07-01-2006, 09:12 PM
like I said, they are very happy with their current 3B situation.
Hey..some of us are trying to eat here!! :angry:

GAC
07-02-2006, 07:01 AM
Uh-huh Doc Hollywood on the pregame show said EE's ankle "Feels great and in no pain. He needs to get at bats and get in baseball shape."

Hmmmm

I listened/watched the very same pre-game interview. And yes he said that. But you are also leaving out where he said that he is having some minor range/motion problems. And yes, one can have those issues without having pain. It's minor, but he said it is evident.

Do you think EE, or any baseball player for that matter, would probably not be in "baseball shape" after sitting/not playing for 2-3 weeks? I'm talking about issues of timing, etc.

And facing AAA pitching is the best place to get that back.... not up here facing far better quality pitching. Especially a young player.

So why should EE be treated different from any other player who has been in a similar situation in the past, and sent on a rehab assignment for the very same reasons?.... to get back into baseball shape. It happens alot - yet with EE, there is someting fishy going on.

If they are content with Aurilia at 3B, then why wasn't he getting the majority of the playing time there prior to EE going on the DL? Why was EE in there for 51 games? Where was Narron's lack of confidence then?

No one seems to want to address this question. ;)

And when EE comes back, probably sometime later in the next week, and is seated back at 3B, what are some of you going to say then?

I remember, before the season started, that some of you on here were saying that Narron was going to give Aurilia a majority of the playing time at 3B this season over EE.

It never happened did it? ;)

membengal
07-02-2006, 11:31 AM
Rich Aurilia missed 15 days and immediately went back to the line-up. No "baseball shape playing" time in Louisville for him. None. And, EE was getting the playing time because he was better. But I truly believe the first chance Narron got he was going to mothball him for Aurilia. Happily, EE was nuclear hot in the spring and limited Narron's chance to do that. Now the ankle, and we get an extended leave of absence for EE. I could not be less surprised. It is amazing how much different this club treats rehab if you are a vet as opposed to not a vet. Aurilia and Jr.? No rehab they. Belisle, EE? To the minors, for a long time!

It is still an unseemly vet fetish that this team has with Aurilia in particular, and it always will be. I hate them for it. I really do. It should be very simple, Aurilia in the line-up, against lefties, at 1b. That's not too damn hard to grasp. Instead, we get Aurilia, in the line-up, at frigin' clean-up no less, for games against righties. It is beyond belief.

Ron Madden
07-02-2006, 12:15 PM
Rich Aurilia missed 15 days and immediately went back to the line-up. No "baseball shape playing" time in Louisville for him. None. And, EE was getting the playing time because he was better. But I truly believe the first chance Narron got he was going to mothball him for Aurilia. Happily, EE was nuclear hot in the spring and limited Narron's chance to do that. Now the ankle, and we get an extended leave of absence for EE. I could not be less surprised. It is amazing how much different this club treats rehab if you are a vet as opposed to not a vet. Aurilia and Jr.? No rehab they. Belisle, EE? To the minors, for a long time!

It is still an unseemly vet fetish that this team has with Aurilia in particular, and it always will be. I hate them for it. I really do. It should be very simple, Aurilia in the line-up, against lefties, at 1b. That's not too damn hard to grasp. Instead, we get Aurilia, in the line-up, at frigin' clean-up no less, for games against righties. It is beyond belief.


Good post.

Ritchie has more AB's than EE even though he was on the 15 day DL himself.

I was one of those that believed Narron would replace Edwin with Aurilia the first/every chance he could. I quess we'll see how the whole thing plays out in the second half. :)

VR
07-02-2006, 12:43 PM
Maybe EE kept saying he couldn't run the bases pain free because he was in on the conspiracey with Narron and Aurilia. Or, they brainwashed him into thinking it still was painful and he didn't have his full fielding range?

reds44
07-02-2006, 01:33 PM
Edwin in the lineup, batting 4th, playing third, for the 6th striaght day. Hopefully today is his last day.

OnBaseMachine
07-02-2006, 02:34 PM
Louisville Slugger Field has what you call holy dirt. When an injured player steps foot on this dirt his injury automatically heals. Great American Ballpark doesn't have this type of dirt, which explains why Edwin was sent to Louisville. Rich Aurilia didn't have to take a rehab assignment because all veteran players are allowed to carry a sample of this special dirt in a ziplock baggie just in case of an injury.

reds44
07-02-2006, 02:49 PM
Edwin is 1-1 with a single so far today

Now hitting .353

membengal
07-02-2006, 02:56 PM
Edwin is 1-1 with a single so far today

Now hitting .353

Thank the gods that isn't happening in Cincinnati. Because otherwise Narron might have to answer for the flurry of at-bats being handed to Castro and Aurilia in his absence...

reds44
07-02-2006, 03:52 PM
Edwin singles

He is 2-3 with 2 singles today.

Hitting .368

reds44
07-02-2006, 04:30 PM
Edwin just doubled

He is now 3-4 with 2 singles and a double

hitting .400

The_jbh
07-02-2006, 05:04 PM
he'll probably be on this upcoming trip... it'll be good to have his pop back

reds44
07-02-2006, 05:32 PM
he'll probably be on this upcoming trip... it'll be good to have his pop back
I hope so. I am going to the game on Tuesday, and I want to see him play.

Edwin ended up going 3-5 with 2 singles and a double.

He played all 11 innings. He is ready.

alloverjr
07-02-2006, 05:49 PM
If he's still having mobility issues, then why is he playing at all? I understand a couple of starts to get the timing back, but this just doesn't seem to be the case. It would appear to me that they (Krivsky/Narron) can't decide on who's roster spot he would take, which makes the addition of Castro even more puzzling. Maybe they're still trying to unload a catcher.

KronoRed
07-02-2006, 05:51 PM
The easy answer is dump a BP pitcher, they all stink, what's 1 less? ;)

reds44
07-02-2006, 06:24 PM
If he's still having mobility issues, then why is he playing at all? I understand a couple of starts to get the timing back, but this just doesn't seem to be the case. It would appear to me that they (Krivsky/Narron) can't decide on who's roster spot he would take, which makes the addition of Castro even more puzzling. Maybe they're still trying to unload a catcher.
I don't know how playing 19 innings in less then 20 hours is going to help is ankle either. If he was playing every other day or something like that I would get it, but he has played in 6 straight games.

Phhhl
07-02-2006, 10:27 PM
Not having him here diminishes the team's chances to win. He was entirely on schedule with how he should have been performing the first two months in order to have a breakout season. At 80%, he is still a better third baseman AND a better cleanup hitter than Rich. We are not talking about a young Austin Kearns struggling to regain his stroke after having his shoulder mangled here. We're talking about the best right handed hitter in a lineup that sorely misses it. It's indefensible to keep stone walling Eddie when the team is in the throes of a penant race. If it continues and we fail to win, it will be a reason.

reds44
07-02-2006, 10:46 PM
Not having him here diminishes the team's chances to win. He was entirely on schedule with how he should have been performing the first two months in order to have a breakout season. At 80%, he is still a better third baseman AND a better cleanup hitter than Rich. We are not talking about a young Austin Kearns struggling to regain his stroke after having his shoulder mangled here. We're talking about the best right handed hitter in a lineup that sorely misses it. It's indefensible to keep stone walling Eddie when the team is in the throes of a penant race. If it continues and we fail to win, it will be a reason.
:clap:

alloverjr
07-02-2006, 10:51 PM
I honestly don't think you'll see EE back with the club until a position player is traded. I really don't think they'll drop an arm to bring him up. Until then, I would expect lingering mobility issues from EE.

GAC
07-03-2006, 06:58 AM
EE was getting the playing time because he was better

Exactly! And WHO made that decision to play him?....

N-A-R-R-O-N


But I truly believe the first chance Narron got he was going to mothball him for Aurilia.


Happily, EE was nuclear hot in the spring and limited Narron's chance to do that.

This is simply ridiculous. :lol:

When you can show solid evidence of this "attitude" by Narron - that he was "in waiting" for the right opportunity to go after EE - which no one yet has - then I would believe it.

EE is a ROOKIE who had 14 errors at 3rd base prior to going down. So there are two solid reasons right there where any manager would/could intervene, and also justify limiting their playing time or platooning them at the position with players such as Aurilia or even Freel (who was sitting the bench alot in May).

He didn't. He stuck with the kid.

If he hadn't gotten hurt, he'd being starting at 3B right now.

Yet you're trying to suggest that Narron dislikes this kid, yet HAD to play him... and almost (in a sick kind of way) loved that this happened so he could implement his grand scheme of playing RA at 3B.

It's simply funny, and skewered logic IMO.


EE? To the minors, for a long time!

6 days is a long time?

And you guys, in your blind hatred for Narron, keep reading/glossing over the main ingredient....

Krivsky, not Narron, controls the DL and rehab assignments. It was Wayne, on the medical advice/evaluation of Kremcheck, who placed EE on the DL, and then made the decision on the rehab assignment in Louisville.

How do you get around this?

Get your facts straight. ;)

I've made my final post on this thread .... Oliver Stone couldn't talk some of you down off the bridge! :lol:

membengal
07-03-2006, 11:19 AM
Rich Aurilia and his .550 or so OPS from the clean-up spot against righties says hi. As does his not-going-to-any-kind-of-rehab-at-all after his DL stint. And, for the record, Aurilia has made his share of errors at 3b as well this year.

Look, SOMEONE in the Reds organization remains wrongfully smitten with the vet/scrappy/whatthehellever skill set of Aurilia, last year it blocked Lopez, and this year many of us have held our breath with EE. Narron gets no props from me for going with EE to start the year, EE didn't give him any choice. However, if EE had merely been great in the spring, instead of insanely great like he was, I don't think it would have played out that way. And now, given a chance to get what was correctly called the Reds' best RH bat back in the line-up in a timely fashion, we instead watch as EE plays meaningless game after meaningless game in Louisville while Cincy runs out Aurilia and Castro at 3b. It pains me. There is no defense of this, not a rational defense anyway. And yet, they keep mothballing him.

You label me a Narron hater, and you are wrong. He irritates the **** out of me, but I don't hate him. I respect that he has kept this team above .500, but there is no question that one of his weaknesses as a manager is his man crush on vets who who tend to suck. Which makes sense, because when he was a major league ballplayer, he hung around as a vet who tended to suck. Narron doesn't own all the blame on this, he shares it with WK. But share it they do.

Castro on this roster is stupid. Castro's presence on this roster apparently dooming us to watching a prolonged and meaningless rehab stint for EE is stupid. Aurilia playing 3b and batting clean-up against righties while EE is in Louisville is stupid. These are stupid things, and have contributed to this club treading water in the last week.

If that were Aurilia's ankle, I don't believe he would be in Louisville. It is EE, so he is. That pisses me off. It is what it is, but it still angers me. EE should have been up in Cincy at the latest to start the Cleveland series, particualarly with lefties Lee and Sabathia slated to go. Thank goodness he was instead raking in Louisville, that's just swell. Not a real mensa moment for the Reds organization.

OnBaseMachine
07-03-2006, 11:31 AM
EE won't be back before the All-Star break. Just watch. Narron is getting what he wanted - no EE around, and Aurilia getting all of the atbats.

EE is healthy and should have been back with the Reds last week.

Red Leader
07-03-2006, 11:48 AM
This is the latest from Rotoworld, via the Enquirer:

Edwin Encarnacion (ankle) is unlikely to join the Reds until later this week.

Encarnacion has been rehabbing with Triple-A Louisville since Tuesday. He hasn't had any setbacks during the rehab, but the Reds want to make sure he is healthy when they activate him.

Keep stalling. Keep stalling. Maybe somebody will be desperate enough to make a move for a player that will open a roster spot for him. If that doesn't happen, I'm going to be really ticked off. If they end up cutting someone to make room for EE, then they should have made the move prior to the Indians series.

oneupper
07-03-2006, 11:53 AM
IMO, the truth lies somewhere in between...

Krivsky had one of his moments, when Castro became available and he thought "hey, wouldn't it be great to have that glove for late inning defense".

He looked at the active roster. "I'll send Olmedo down"...and so it was.
He forgot a little detail...EE was on the DL, but I'm guessing he expected someone to get injured, or make a deal before he came back.
Now, he's got a problem and is trying to buy time.

It sucks..sure, but its not a conspiracy, just a miscalculation.

Why do I think this is the case? Krivsky did the same with Cody Ross (brought him over with a full roster) and *bless him* Brandon Phillips.

This is the flip side of Dan O'Brien, who would prefer to have the team a man short than get someone, much less juggle one or two extra guys.

As for Narron, I doubt he dislikes EE, though from what I've seen on tv, EE looks like the sulky quiet type. Aurilia, on the other hand, must be a charmer to get the PT and unwarranted respect (cleanup?) that Narron affords him.

His actions do say that he overestimates Aurilia's abilities (PT, cleanup)...but...does he prefer him over EE?

We'll have to see what he does when EE comes back. I'm guessing that will be after the All-Star break, since the REDS are going to Milwaukee and Atlanta now.

guttle11
07-03-2006, 12:08 PM
Hey guys, it's possible that Narron and Krivsky are thinking that since the Reds are still doing well in the standings, there's no rush to get EE back. Let him get fully healthy and get his timing back at the plate.

In fact, I'd say it's highly possible. Probable even.

membengal
07-03-2006, 12:12 PM
If that's what they are thinking, they are making a huge mistake. The Cardinals just took a once in a decade streak of losing badness, and the best the Reds could do that stretch of opportunity presented is pull to within 1 game? Making up just four games in that stretch?

EE absolutely could have helped in the last week, and helped the Reds further take advantage of the opening the Cards presented. You simply do NOT give away chances to win games at any point in the season, and leaving EE in Louisville when he could be in Cincy is doing just that. No other way to look at it.

Red Leader
07-03-2006, 12:19 PM
Hey guys, it's possible that Narron and Krivsky are thinking that since the Reds are still doing well in the standings, there's no rush to get EE back. Let him get fully healthy and get his timing back at the plate.

In fact, I'd say it's highly possible. Probable even.

It is possible. I think the most likely scenario is the one oneupper provided, that Krivsky is in a jam after making the move for Castro.

I can understand the lack of urgency with this move. Freel is playing really well, and it's hard to take him out of the lineup. Kearns is playing well, and always plays good defense. Aurilia is playing decently enough (although I still don't understand the need to hit him cleanup vs RHP, but I have no control over that). With those three playing well, where would EE get his at-bats. We all say that Aurilia should go to the bench (well, most of us) and back in a platoon with Hatte at 1B. That's fine, but that also limits Freel's AB's to sub for Dunn, Griffey, EE, and BP. In a pennant race, can you afford to give each of those 4 players a day off each week to get Freel his PT and keep his bat going the way it is? That's a hard decision.

There are a lot of hard decisions to make going forward. Who's expendable? What players are you going to target? How much salary can be taken on? How much salary can be moved? Do you risk getting lesser talent in return by trading someone like LaRue or Milton with Kearns and Denorfia to cut salary and maybe get something better in return in a future trade? In other words, can you afford to outright lose one trade to make another, more important trade down the line? All hard decisions. I have faith that Wayne knows what he's doing, though. He hasn't proven otherwise so far.

guttle11
07-03-2006, 12:20 PM
If that's what they are thinking, they are making a huge mistake. The Cardinals just took a once in a decade streak of losing badness, and the best the Reds could do that stretch of opportunity presented is pull to within 1 game? Making up just four games in that stretch?

EE absolutely could have helped in the last week, and helped the Reds further take advantage of the opening the Cards presented. You simply do NOT give away chances to win games at any point in the season, and leaving EE in Louisville when he could be in Cincy is doing just that. No other way to look at it.


Edwin likely wasn't ready to play in a major league game when his 15 days were up. Aurilia is a better option than a rusty, not ready Edwin. Let Edwin get his swing and timing back in Louisville while the Reds stay at or near the top. When he's ready, bring him up and he'll be right back to where he was.

Ltlabner
07-03-2006, 12:23 PM
Lets pretend for a second that Narron does in fact have it in for EE and all youngsters.

Why then didn't he yank Lopez who has been equally error prone and had some offenseive problems? He could have had RA at 3B and Castro at SS since Juan came back. Why did they decide to go with the Lizzard over Williams? Why didn't they yank Dunner who was having all sorts of problems and replace him with McQ? Why hasn't he stuck LaRue in the starting catching role from the second he came back from the DL?

There's a lot of youngsters there that could have been replaced with "scrappy vets" yet they wern't. How does this jive with Narron has scrappy vet love people gripe about?

Could it be they have decided that EE is the 3B of the future and they want to make absoultley, positivley sure he is ready so they don't harm him in the long run? Could it be that they are showcasing RA so they can up his trade value a bit as we go into heavy trading season? Could it be we don't know everything that is going on in the Reds front office? Could it be we aren't being told the entire stroy about EE's medical condition?

I'm not saying I know what is going on, I'm saying that none of us know what is going on so to invest so much energy in a theroy that has no basis other than speculation and paranoia doesn't make much sense.

knuckler
07-03-2006, 01:16 PM
This is just my reading of the tea leaves, but I think if Quentin McCracken was a utility infielder, Edwin Encarnacion would be starting at 3B today. McCracken is the obviously weakest position player on the 25 man roster, but if they cut him loose to make room for EdE, they're left with 4 outfielders, counting Freel. Given Freel's propensity for running into walls and Griffey's legs, I don't think they feel comfortable with only 4 oufielders available at the start of each game. Heck, Freel could run over Griffey and we'd be left with LaRue playing left field until they could dig Denorfia's uni out of storage.

But if I were Krivsky I'd release the Q man and re-install Encarnacion at 3rd this morning. Then I'd keep working the phones to trade a catcher and bring up either Denorfia or Wise to be my extra outfielder and pinch-hitter. I don't know how many more Castro starts or McCracken pinch-hitting appearances this team can stand.

reds44
07-03-2006, 01:55 PM
IMO, the truth lies somewhere in between...

Krivsky had one of his moments, when Castro became available and he thought "hey, wouldn't it be great to have that glove for late inning defense".

He looked at the active roster. "I'll send Olmedo down"...and so it was.
He forgot a little detail...EE was on the DL, but I'm guessing he expected someone to get injured, or make a deal before he came back.
Now, he's got a problem and is trying to buy time.

It sucks..sure, but its not a conspiracy, just a miscalculation.

Why do I think this is the case? Krivsky did the same with Cody Ross (brought him over with a full roster) and *bless him* Brandon Phillips.

This is the flip side of Dan O'Brien, who would prefer to have the team a man short than get someone, much less juggle one or two extra guys.

As for Narron, I doubt he dislikes EE, though from what I've seen on tv, EE looks like the sulky quiet type. Aurilia, on the other hand, must be a charmer to get the PT and unwarranted respect (cleanup?) that Narron affords him.

His actions do say that he overestimates Aurilia's abilities (PT, cleanup)...but...does he prefer him over EE?

We'll have to see what he does when EE comes back. I'm guessing that will be after the All-Star break, since the REDS are going to Milwaukee and Atlanta now.
Edwin is your 23 year old starting 3rd baseman Cody Ross was a scrub who was the 25th man off the bench. You make room for EE, you don't wait until a deal is available to make.

KronoRed
07-03-2006, 05:22 PM
/\ But to the Reds guys in charge EE is just a kid ;)

reds44
07-03-2006, 06:16 PM
Reds are 9-15 without Edwin.

We were 38-24 with him.

Keep him in AAA baby!

And before you bring up the bullpen, when Edwin was playing we had the same pen.

Jpup
07-03-2006, 08:03 PM
Aurilia should be let go to make room for EdE. He has no use on the club IMO. Hatteberg doesn't need a platoon. He is equally adapt to get on base against either righty or lefties and Aurilia couldn't hit his way out of a wet paper bag.

Richie, it's time for you to go.

pedro
07-03-2006, 09:08 PM
Aurilia should be let go to make room for EdE. He has no use on the club IMO. Hatteberg doesn't need a platoon. He is equally adapt to get on base against either righty or lefties and Aurilia couldn't hit his way out of a wet paper bag.

Richie, it's time for you to go.

I think Aurilia is a fine fill in and a good guy to have to spot start against LHP. I don't see a reason for him to be cut loose.

alloverjr
07-03-2006, 09:34 PM
I think Aurilia is a fine fill in and a good guy to have to spot start against LHP. I don't see a reason for him to be cut loose.


Agreed. And certainly not included in the top 9 reasons this club is struggling to play .500 ball currently.

oneupper
07-03-2006, 10:31 PM
Here's fuel for the conspiracy theories:

Gameday has Encarnación playing 1B tonight (7/3) vs. Columbus

Falls City Beer
07-03-2006, 10:41 PM
Rich is the perfect bench guy--respectable contact and pop. Ideal bench guy. No reason to cut him loose. But no reason to do anything but spot-start him.

Ron Madden
07-03-2006, 10:45 PM
Here's fuel for the conspiracy theories:

Gameday has Encarnación playing 1B tonight (7/3) vs. Columbus

If Kriviski thinks Ritch is a better fielding thirdbaseman than Edwin is.... well he's not as smart as I thought he was. :(

Patrick Bateman
07-03-2006, 11:43 PM
Rich is the perfect bench guy--respectable contact and pop. Ideal bench guy. No reason to cut him loose. But no reason to do anything but spot-start him.

Exactly. Good post.

OnBaseMachine
07-04-2006, 09:07 AM
:rolleyes:

EDWIN UPDATE: Edwin Encarnacion is a) healthy and b) hitting.

But the Reds still haven't set a date for Encarnacion's return from his rehab assignment with Triple-A Louisville.

Asked if there's a chance Encarnacion will join the Reds on their current road trip, Narron said:

"There's a chance. But I don't know if he will or not."

Encarnacion has been on the disabled list since June 9 with a sprained left ankle. Sunday was Encarnacion's seventh rehab game.

He went into Sunday hitting .381 for the Bats. He went 3-for-5 with a double Saturday.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060704/SPT04/607040344/1071

Chip R
07-04-2006, 11:54 AM
Yeah, we will not see EE anytime before his rehab is up unless someone gets hurt.

membengal
07-04-2006, 12:27 PM
Yeah, we will not see EE anytime before his rehab is up unless someone gets hurt.

Simply proving, as the days pass, that just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not out to get you.

What say you now, all of you who said the Reds were not simply stashing EE in Louisville because they were reluctant to make a roster move?

WMR
07-04-2006, 12:43 PM
Really disappointing, especially considering all the detritus in the bullpen.

This says a lot about Krivsky, IMO, and none of it is good. Narron, well, I already know HIS story.

alloverjr
07-04-2006, 01:32 PM
While this team will still win nothing without getting 3 or more decent arms, this to me is an outrage. I've known all along (or since the Castro blunder) that EE wasn't comeingup until Wayne was forced to make that move. The real underlying concern for me is not that EE isn't with the big club, but that, with all the positive things Wayne has done, he is no different than past regimes in that he is refusing to eat his own mistakes and admit he was wrong. More than willing to jetison the Whites and Hammonds of the world, yet keep Q, Mays, Castro and Yan and at the same time keep EE in AAA. Again, they're not going to win anything this year with or without EE. I don't think they'll finish over .500. But for the love of pete Waye, swallow the damn pride. You've done some good things here to date. Don't screw it up on account of Castro.

Matt700wlw
07-04-2006, 01:38 PM
Jerry on the pregame:

"There's a good chance he'll meet up with us in Atlanta. We'll talk about it and see what happens. The only bad thing about it would be he'd get 3 days off with the all-star break."

They also want to make sure he's 100%......................uh....

Falls City Beer
07-04-2006, 01:43 PM
While this team will still win nothing without getting 3 or more decent arms, this to me is an outrage. I've known all along (or since the Castro blunder) that EE wasn't comeingup until Wayne was forced to make that move. The real underlying concern for me is not that EE isn't with the big club, but that, with all the positive things Wayne has done, he is no different than past regimes in that he is refusing to eat his own mistakes and admit he was wrong. More than willing to jetison the Whites and Hammonds of the world, yet keep Q, Mays, Castro and Yan and at the same time keep EE in AAA. Again, they're not going to win anything this year with or without EE. I don't think they'll finish over .500. But for the love of pete Waye, swallow the damn pride. You've done some good things here to date. Don't screw it up on account of Castro.

Freud: "We fall in love with our own *feces*"

Precisely. Wayne will make good moves, but like most men of ego and arrogance, will stick with his mistakes because they're his mistakes. I'd prefer a more scientific approach to gm-ing: admit the miscalculation and try a new hypothesis.

reds44
07-04-2006, 08:33 PM
Jerry on the pregame:

"There's a good chance he'll meet up with us in Atlanta. We'll talk about it and see what happens. The only bad thing about it would be he'd get 3 days off with the all-star break."

They also want to make sure he's 100%......................uh....
I sure hope so. We have played some bad baseball without him.

reds44
07-04-2006, 08:37 PM
Check out where Edwin is playing tonight for Louisville.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/index.jsp

HINT: It's not 3rd base.

KronoRed
07-04-2006, 08:41 PM
1st again?

Do they really like 30 year old still in AAA Earl Snyder at 3rd? ;)

reds44
07-04-2006, 08:44 PM
Here's fuel for the conspiracy theories:

Gameday has Encarnación playing 1B tonight (7/3) vs. Columbus
So tonight is the 2nd night in a row he is playing 1st?

You have got to be kidding!

KronoRed
07-04-2006, 08:45 PM
Well the Reds do love versatility

oneupper
07-04-2006, 09:36 PM
So tonight is the 2nd night in a row he is playing 1st?

You have got to be kidding!

Last night he didn't reinjure his ankle fiddling around the bag (like any inexperienced first baseman), so they're going to try again tonight [/conspiracy theory]

alloverjr
07-04-2006, 09:37 PM
Well, if Sir Albert can do it. ;)

Votto for pitching anyone?

KronoRed
07-04-2006, 09:38 PM
Well, if Sir Albert can do it. ;)

Votto for pitching anyone?
Who plays third? don't say Castro/Rich, that's a short term (1 year) solution

reds44
07-04-2006, 09:42 PM
Who plays third? don't say Castro/Rich, that's a short term (1 year) solution
Freel could do it for a few years. Always have the F.A. market or a trade.

I don't even think I would mind if he is moved to 1st as long as he is playing everyday and not platooning.

KronoRed
07-04-2006, 09:45 PM
But he wouldn't be playing everyday if they move him to 1st now, he'd be splitting with The Hat

reds44
07-04-2006, 09:51 PM
But he wouldn't be playing everyday if they move him to 1st now, he'd be splitting with The Hat
That I would HATE.

If Edwin only plays against LHP, Narron is officially a fool.

alloverjr
07-04-2006, 10:02 PM
It was just a wild hair I had. I guess my thought would be they are trying him at 1B to see if he has ANY future there in case a trade involving Votto goes down. I would see him split time between 1B and 3B - although I could see that being damaging as well. As mentioned, Freel or an outside acquisition takes Third next year (I would like to try Freel there). I was thinking more 2007 than this year.

WVRedsFan
07-04-2006, 10:15 PM
That I would HATE.

If Edwin only plays against LHP, Narron is officially a fool.

And you're surprised?

Folks, the extension of the Narron contract will go down in history as one of the worst moves by a front office so far in the 21st Century.

People have been so focused on the horrible bullpen that they can't see the sea change that Narron is making on this ball club. We've gone from a young base to an old base where vets like Aurilia, Hatteberg, Castro, and others play a major role. The problem with that is it doesn't do anything for the future. This club, even if it does win 90 games (which looks dimmer every day) is not really a playoff caliber club. By playing Aurilia, Hatteberg, and lately Castro everyday, we don't develop any young players and the future will depend (once again) on buying free agents and other team's castoffs. I don't want to go back there. Do you?

Jerry Narron may have a winning record this year (and that looks bleaker every day), but the bullpen is only one problem on this club. If the goal is for this franchise to be competitive every year, as RCast said when he took over, some different thinking from field management and front office is needed. Although I have been enthusiastic and supporting of Krivsky and Cast, this bothers me a lot.

Chip R
07-04-2006, 10:31 PM
Well said, WV. Even those among you who don't think this is some nefarious plan to keep EE down in the minors have to believe it is odd when he has been on this rehab assignment for this long. Usually only pitchers get this long on rehab. A hitter might get a day or two but not this long. You also have to think it is odd that he is playing 1B. Wouldn't you think that getting reps in at 3rd would help his fielding out? Nobody questions his being able to hit, it is his shortcomings at 3rd that are the question. If I were the GM I would want him at 3rd every inning possible while he was in AAA.

Ltlabner
07-04-2006, 10:53 PM
Is it possible a trade is in the works for Hatte since he's been pretty hot and his stock is probably at it's highest? Move EE to 1B so you limit his fielding errors and keep his power in the line up. Then have Castro/RA to platoon at 3B or even Freel in the short term until another long term solution can be found. This might explain EE playing at 1B in AAA and the length of his stay in Louisville (to give him some playing time at the position before dumping him back into it at Cincy).

Just a wild speculation.

reds44
07-04-2006, 11:03 PM
Is it possible a trade is in the works for Hatte since he's been pretty hot and his stock is probably at it's highest? Move EE to 1B so you limit his fielding errors and keep his power in the line up. Then have Castro/RA to platoon at 3B or even Freel in the short term until another long term solution can be found. This might explain EE playing at 1B in AAA and the length of his stay in Louisville (to give him some playing time at the position before dumping him back into it at Cincy).

Just a wild speculation.
He has only played 2 of his now 9 (i think) games in Louisville. He also hasn't had a day off in those 9 days which is surprising considering he hadn't of played for almost 3 weeks. That could explain his 0-4 tonight.

Although I guess it is possible they were going to bring Edwin up before the Brewers series, but a trade for Hatte is about to go down, so they are getting him time in AAA playing 1st.

I have no idea, but from him being down there for so long, to him not having an off day in a week and a half, it just seems like they are massively mis-managing him.

WMR
07-05-2006, 12:19 AM
Moving him from 3b to 1b would be so [bleeping] stupid. Leave the kid alone and he'll win a gold glove over there. Is Krivsky really dumb enough not to realize that even if you commit 10 errors but get to 20 balls that an old, played-out vet only dreams of getting to, you're ahead 10 singles/doubles????

And great post, WV, b/c I feel the exact same way. And I keep hearing that quote in my head out of Krivsky: "Me and Jerry are on the same page about everything."

REALLY.

I said it b/f and I'll say it again, Jerry Narron sucks as a manager. I can't believe Cast gave him a 2 year extension so cavalierly.

KronoRed
07-05-2006, 12:32 AM
A 1st baseman is easier to find then a 3rd.

Look at the Reds history of 3rd baseman, please tell me why moving him this early would in any way be a good idea?

:help:

alloverjr
07-05-2006, 01:12 AM
A 1st baseman is easier to find then a 3rd.

Look at the Reds history of 3rd baseman, please tell me why moving him this early would in any way be a good idea?

:help:

Not that I agree, but maybe the braintrust is convinced that he'll never learn to make an accurate throw from 3rd.

SteelSD
07-05-2006, 02:42 AM
Not that I agree, but maybe the braintrust is convinced that he'll never learn to make an accurate throw from 3rd.

That doesn't surprise me. It doesn't surprise me at all that Krivsky is working out Encarnacion at 1B on his rehab stint right now. He and Terry Ryan (Twins GM) are of like minds. The reason a pud like Tony Batista has been playing 3B for the Twins this season is that they moved Michael Cuddyer off that position because he had the audacity to be an average fielding 3B last season. The delicious irony is that Batista is absolutely putrid in the field as well as at the plate this season.

Now, I'm on record with having real concerns over Encarnacion's ability to complete throws to 1B. In fact, I've suggested that Encarnacion's eventual position be Left Field. He's never shown a propensity to do that consistently. That being said, after seeing him cover ground, I'm not willing to move him until he can demonstrate over time that he can't complete those throws competently. He can get to far more balls than the alternatives- Aurilia, Freel (who's actually pretty good), and Castro. That deserves opportunity.

There's simply no reason to have Encarnacion take the field at First Base in any rehab assignment. If he plays game one at 1B when coming off the DL, that'll mean that the 3B job and cleanup spot are being handed to a guy (Aurilia) who should be sitting on the bench. It'll also mean that Encarnacion will be losing PA to Hatteberg- who doesn't project to continue his current career year.

That's the situational dynamic and it flat-out stinks. And we should make no mistake- Wayne Krivsky is a "tools, pitching, defense" kind of GM who relates exceptionally well to Jerry Narron, who is a "tools, pitching, defense" kind of manager. Problem is that Krivsky hasn't found a good pitcher other than Arroyo (who's been the DIPS-luckiest pitcher in the NL) and Narron appears to use age as a performance indicator when using the bullpen. Well, that and Narron can't fill out a decent lineup card to save his life.

Right now the Reds have a -10 Run Differential while scoring the fourth most Runs per game and allowing the fourth most Runs per Game. Know what that gets you over a full season?

79-83

Arroyo is going to come back to earth. Elizardo Ramirez is going to come back to earth. The bullpen stinks and the offense doesn't project to get much better- especially without the re-introduction of Edwin Encarnacion as a regular contributor on a daily basis. And the current pitching issues ARE Wayne Krivsky's (and Jerry Narron's) fault. Krivsky has done a decent job of jettisoning unproductive players that weren't his but his identification of more productive players (Brandon Phillips, Hatteberg) is dwarfed by the puds he's brought in or kept. Quinton McCracken's presence is ridiculous. But he and Krivsky have a history. Ditto with Javier Valentin (and why I suspect he's still on the team). Ditto with Joe Mays and Juan Castro. Good God. But the current version of Hatteberg isn't the real Hatteberg and the current version of Bronson Arroyo isn't the real Bronson Arroyo, so we're left with Brandon Phillips. And, hey, I like Brandon Phillips but is that it? Is Brandon Phillips the totality of what has, to this point, been a big game of wheel spinning?

And we're left with Rich Aurilia occupying the cleanup slot. I wonder...how many teams have received less from their cleanup spot than Rich Aurilia? Nine. Those teams are San Diego, Philly, Tampa, Washington, the Cubs, Kansas City, Arizona, Texas, and Minnesota. How many teams have a lower OBP from their cleanup spot than what Aurilia sports? None. Yay. How many teams have a lower OBP from their 3-spot hitter than what Griffey's provided so far (.306 OBP)? Three. Milwaukee, Oakland, LA Angels. Double yay. Has any team provided less opportunity from the 3 and 4 slots combined? Unlikely.

This team's performance thusfar is a direct reflection of leadership philosophy. And if that philosphy drives Edwin Encarnacion to play 1B during a rehab stint that's lasted too long, then I worry about the future because it doesn't seem like anyone in control has the first clue how to put together a real live baseball team. Don't get me wrong- Krivsky's done some good things. But at some point we need to consider that bad as well and we've got enough of that to start thowing it into the mix.

Jpup
07-05-2006, 07:06 AM
and I am being questioned about getting rid of Rich Aurilia? There is a reason that I want to get rid of him. Jerry Narron can not help himself, he has to pencil him in the lineup. What good is he? The same can be said for Juan Castro. There is no reason for Ryan Freel not to be in the lineup everyday. He is day and night better than either of these guys at any posistion. What's up with sitting Felipe Lopez? Someone explain that.

This is one of the reasons I didn't want Narron extended. IMO, he should have never been hired. I don't care how many games the Reds have won this year, it has been in spite of Narron and his bone headed strategy and lineups. As for Krivsky, if he doesn't realize how bad Narron is, maybe we should look at him.

The blame for Edwin being in AAA has to be placed squarely on the shoulders of Wayne Krivsky. It makes no since at all for him to be there. He has nothing left to prove. I couldn't care less if he plays 1st base, he should be playing everyday in Cincinnati. If Krivsky can't commit to that, he needs to trade him for something that he is willing to use.

There are pieces to be traded to get some bullpen help, there is some help in the minors. It's time to use these guys on the field or get rid of them. I have been on the Krivsky bandwagon since before he was hired, but he hasn't shown a willingness, any more than O'brien, to admit his mistakes and to use an alternative.

Steel said it a whole lot better than I could have. Maybe things will change tommorrow.

membengal
07-05-2006, 08:50 AM
This last page of this thread has brought a tear to my eye. Well said steel and jpup.

Oh, and this thought. The Reds have a 23-year-old at AA who is threatening the triple crown. Um, why do you clutter up his path to the majors with a position switch contemplation for EE?

Other than a continued unhealthy Aurilia/Castro fixation, no good reason. None.

This whole thing blows. And the contract extension for Narron still makes me quesy.

Ltlabner
07-05-2006, 09:04 AM
You guys have convinced me. Narron sucks. The Kriv sucks. BC obviously sucks for sticking with these guys for so long. We need a change in ownership and management here in Cincy. We've been stuck with the same old management philosphy for far to long and look what it's gotten us. We can all clearly see how they are gutting the team and continuing to feild nothing but old guys like Dunn, Kearns, Phillips, Ross, The Lizzard, Harrang, Coffey, and Lopez day after day. And again, look what it's gotten us.

We got rid of the scourge of Dan O 3 days before spring training. Isn't that long enough to rip off 5 or 6 blockbuster trades and bring in some HOF caliber help to town? The first three months of the season are known world-wide for the quality of trades available yet we've seen nothing! The minor leagues are chock full of pitchers just bursting to 4 and 5 ERA's in the minors so why aren't they up here to face major league hitting? Obviously they will only improve on those stellar ERA's once they get to the bigs.

My eyes have been opened to the fact that ownership and management are cleary incompetent and have no idea how to build a winning team. It's been 3 months. They've had a chance and it's time to try something new!

membengal
07-05-2006, 09:20 AM
Yes indeed ltl, ignore the specific point being made about the handling of the EE situation with a larger hyperbolic jab aimed at .... no one? These are legitimate issues and concerns in terms of EE/Aurilia/Castro, and the concerns that many of us raised about it 10 days ago have been borne out. That's my focus for now. The larger focus of whether WK really does understand the value of a .900 OPS (around where EE was hanging out before the injury) versus a .951 to .944 fielding percentage difference at 3b (Castro vs. EE) I am holding in abeyance for now.

As it stands, this team has been weakened in the last 10 days by mothballing EE. Even you have to admit that at this point. I have liked what WK has done, in general, so far. But this situation is significant demerits to his side of the ledger. We cannot just ignore this when considering his moves so far, and pretend this situation has not happened. Phillips good. Getting rid of Womack? Good. Bringing in Castro? Irritating. Realizing that Castro's presence on the 25 man has helped to block EE's return? Beyond irritating to a place of white-hot anger.

Dumb as the days are long right now, that's what this situation is.

Ltlabner
07-05-2006, 09:39 AM
Yes indeed ltl, ignore the specific point being made about the handling of the EE situation with a larger hyperbolic jab aimed at .... no one?

My point has been, and remains, that not a single one of us know's what's REALLY going on behind closed doors with regards to EE. Because you've convinced yourself of a reason does not make it true. Unless one of us arm-chair GM's is secretly a member of the front office and is leaking out behind the sceens information all of the rantings on this thread are just that....rantings.

Of course not having EE in the line up is a drag and hurts the offence. I think EE is the 3B of the future and hope to see him there for years to come. But none of us know for sure why he hasn't been there reciently. Again, because you are convicned of the reason does not make it gospel that the rest of us have to worship.

membengal
07-05-2006, 09:48 AM
At this point, there is pretty much no reason that can justifiy weakening the team like the FO has in the last 10 days.

What you are left with, those of you who have been on the just-wait-and-all-will-be-made-clear bandwagon, is hoping against hope that SOME sort of move will be made which will justify this insanity. At this point, that move doesn't exist.

Ltlabner
07-05-2006, 09:54 AM
At this point, that move doesn't exist.

A link please? Back up for this assertion? Proof? ;)

Kc61
07-05-2006, 10:26 AM
My point has been, and remains, that not a single one of us know's what's REALLY going on behind closed doors with regards to EE. Because you've convinced yourself of a reason does not make it true. Unless one of us arm-chair GM's is secretly a member of the front office and is leaking out behind the sceens information all of the rantings on this thread are just that....rantings.

Of course not having EE in the line up is a drag and hurts the offence. I think EE is the 3B of the future and hope to see him there for years to come. But none of us know for sure why he hasn't been there reciently. Again, because you are convicned of the reason does not make it gospel that the rest of us have to worship.

Right.

Maybe more emphasis should go to the fact that the team ERA is now over 4.7. The pitching has been terrible lately. Can't remember the last truly well pitched nine inning game by the Reds. Right now, I think this team has exactly two reliable pitchers -- Arroyo and Harang. (I like EZ, but it is just too soon to draw any conclusions.)

Perhaps the Reds are slow with EE because they are afraid of a Lopez/EE left side of the infield. With a marginal pitching staff, it must concern the Reds that EE's fielding percentage is so low. The infield play has been steadier with RA and Castro getting more time, for all their deficiencies.

Whatever the reasoning, Krivsky is not stupid. He sees EE's numbers. I don't buy the conspiracy theories. EE will be back soon enough.

membengal
07-05-2006, 10:27 AM
A link please? Back up for this assertion? Proof? ;)

For me personally, ltl, there is nothing they can do at this point in terms of a move that justifies weakening the team over the last 10 days like they have. I don't have a link to my take on this, just imagine one.

Perhaps you will win your hope against hope and there will be something that will allow you to argue that WK hasn't spit the bit on this one, but I wouldn't bet your mortgage on it.

And, kc61, as was covered over on Live, Castro's career fielding percentage at 3b .951, EE's so far, .944. Perceptions without a basis in reality are dangerous things in general, and irritating in particular when it is Narron and WK sharing in the delusion.

Kc61
07-05-2006, 10:51 AM
For me personally, ltl, there is nothing they can do at this point in terms of a move that justifies weakening the team over the last 10 days like they have. I don't have a link to my take on this, just imagine one.

Perhaps you will win your hope against hope and there will be something that will allow you to argue that WK hasn't spit the bit on this one, but I wouldn't bet your mortgage on it.

And, kc61, as was covered over on Live, Castro's career fielding percentage at 3b .951, EE's so far, .944. Perceptions without a basis in reality are dangerous things in general, and irritating in particular when it is Narron and WK sharing in the delusion.

Another way to look at the fielding numbers:

RA, this year, third base. .955.
Castro, this year, third base. 1.000.
EE, this year, third base. .894.


Lifetime overall fielding percentages all positions:

RA .974
Castro .978
EE .924.

membengal
07-05-2006, 10:53 AM
If you are justifying this move based on the small sample size of EE's fielding as he grows into being a major league third baseman, we will have to agree to strongly disagree.

IF wk and narron are justifying it based on that, then they are committing a baseball version of malpractice.

Kc61
07-05-2006, 11:43 AM
If you are justifying this move based on the small sample size of EE's fielding as he grows into being a major league third baseman, we will have to agree to strongly disagree.

IF wk and narron are justifying it based on that, then they are committing a baseball version of malpractice.

I just think some folks are reacting too strongly to this. EE is only 23 and has had a lot of errors this year. I can understand why they are taking it slow with him, particularly with this pitching staff which cannot afford defensive lapses. He will wind up with more than 350 major league at bats this year and will grow plenty this season.

If he was a polished defensive third baseman, I think the team would have pushed him harder to come back to the major leagues sooner. Some FOs would have handled this differently, but I can understand Krivsky's position.

I expect EE back soon, but if Lopez and EE continue to make a lot of errors, something will change, likely at shortstop. I do think that EE will be a very good player.

Jpup
07-05-2006, 12:35 PM
I just think some folks are reacting too strongly to this. EE is only 23 and has had a lot of errors this year. I can understand why they are taking it slow with him, particularly with this pitching staff which cannot afford defensive lapses. He will wind up with more than 350 major league at bats this year and will grow plenty this season.

If he was a polished defensive third baseman, I think the team would have pushed him harder to come back to the major leagues sooner. Some FOs would have handled this differently, both I can understand Krivsky's position.

I expect EE back soon, but if Lopez and EE continue to make a lot of errors, something will change, likely at shortstop. I do think that EE will be a very good player.

What can Encarnacion do in Louisville that he can't do in Cincinnati? Go to Churchhill downs?

BRM
07-05-2006, 12:41 PM
What can Encarnacion do in Louisville that he can't do in Cincinnati? Go to Churchhill downs?

Play 1B?

Jpup
07-05-2006, 12:44 PM
Play 1B?

If they want him play first, he can do that in Cincinnati. I actually wouldn't mind plugging Freel in to 3rd everyday and Encarnacion at 1st. Let Hatteberg start if one of them need a rest. I'm about making this team the best it can be. I think playing Freel everyday really would help the team.

Falls City Beer
07-05-2006, 01:28 PM
Arroyo is not the "real" Arroyo? No offense, Steel, but what the hell does that mean?

I think Wayne's made as many suspect moves as he has good moves, but it's borderline psychotic to throw out Krivsky's acquisition of Arroyo as meaningless or "not real."

Black is not white; and the acquisition of Arroyo was a masterstroke.