PDA

View Full Version : Merged: Hang this series loss on Lopez



blugrssblood
06-11-2006, 07:38 PM
Game two, Lopez should have turned an easy double play that ended up costing the Reds three runs, he seems more concerned with being flashy than actually getting the out. Now move ahead to the 9th inning, bases loaded, nobody out, Lopez steps to the plate, Lopez now wants to be the hero, swings at the first two pitches in the dirt instead of being patient, Reds lose. I really do think this guy is overrated as a shortstop on this team, there is more to playing shortstop then just hitting. In the clutch, he is not our man, I recall another game, against the Tigers I think, he hurries a throw that he ends up throwing away and costing us the game.

Spitball
06-11-2006, 07:43 PM
Game two, Lopez should have turned an easy double play that ended up costing the Reds three runs, he seems more concerned with being flashy than actually getting the out. Now move ahead to the 9th inning, bases loaded, nobody out, Lopez steps to the plate, Lopez now wants to be the hero, swings at the first two pitches in the dirt instead of being patient, Reds lose. I really do think this guy is overrated as a shortstop on this team, there is more to playing shortstop then just hitting. In the clutch, he is not our man, I recall another game, against the Tigers I think, he hurries a throw that he ends up throwing away and costing us the game.

I prefer to hang the loss on the offense.

NewEraReds
06-11-2006, 07:45 PM
and give some to narron. bases loaded and you bring in a pitcher(yan) who has horrible control. gets behind and he grooves a fastball, game over. and many others. and oh, lets just keep moving that lineup around.

reds44
06-11-2006, 07:49 PM
Wow, I'm glad you aren't our GM. Outside of Renteria, Felipe is the best SS in the NL. Against the Tigers, he couldn't find the ball in his glove and was forced to hurry the throw. Even after he did that, he threw a one hopper that was a very pickable ball that RA made a half-hearted attempt to pick. It wasn't RA's fault, but not being able to find a ball in your glove happens from time to time. Felipe is a below average SS, but we already knew that, but please don't try and tell me the reason he is bad is because he tries to be flashy. Our 2nd baseman is more flashy then Felipe is, difference is BP is a gifted defensive player. This is why many think we should move Felipe to 2B and Felipe to SS.

Felipe Lopez is not overrated. He is 7th in the NL in hits and 3rd in stolen bases. He is hitting .285 with a .375 OBP. I would be willing to bet his average will be even higher then it is right now at the end of the year. He is reliable and is in the lineup every day.

As for his at bat on Friday night. Do you not remember him working the count to 3-2 before being called out on a very questionable pitch? He was patient.

KronoRed
06-11-2006, 07:50 PM
I prefer to hand the whole team

Win as a team lose as a team..and all that rot.

blugrssblood
06-11-2006, 07:52 PM
and give some to narron. bases loaded and you bring in a pitcher(yan) who has horrible control. gets behind and he grooves a fastball, game over. and many others. and oh, lets just keep moving that lineup around.

We need to send Narron to school on situational hitting. His idea of making a lineup is "try a guy at that spot, and if he hits, keep him there, for a few days" Really, I think our best number two hitter would be Hatteburgh, he gets on base and puts the ball in play. To Narron's credit though, he doesn't have a true number 4 hitter, Although Dunn is probably the best for right now. Griffey probably wouldn't have hit that winning homerun off the Cardinals if he didn't have Dunn hitting behind him. I would have liked to see the Reds bring in a guy like Nevin.

blugrssblood
06-11-2006, 07:55 PM
Wow, I'm glad you aren't our GM. Outside of Renteria, Felipe is the best SS in the NL. Against the Tigers, he couldn't find the ball in his glove and was forced to hurry the throw. Even after he did that, he threw a one hopper that was a very pickable ball that RA made a half-hearted attempt to pick. It wasn't RA's fault, but not being able to find a ball in your glove happens from time to time. Felipe is a below average SS, but we already knew that, but please don't try and tell me the reason he is bad is because he tries to be flashy. Our 2nd baseman is more flashy then Felipe is, difference is BP is a gifted defensive player. This is why many think we should move Felipe to 2B and Felipe to SS.

Felipe Lopez is not overrated. He is 7th in the NL in hits and 3rd in stolen bases. He is hitting .285 with a .375 OBP. I would be willing to bet his average will be even higher then it is right now at the end of the year. He is reliable and is in the lineup every day.

As for his at bat on Friday night. Do you not remember him working the count to 3-2 before being called out on a very questionable pitch? He was patient.


I'll take a guy like Eckstien over Lopez anyday.

reds44
06-11-2006, 07:59 PM
I'll take a guy like Eckstien over Lopez anyday.
I'll say it again, I am gald you aren't our GM. Lopez has twice the talent of Eckstein. All Eckstein does is get on base, he is slow, has no range, and has no throwing arm. He is like Scott Hatteberg, except he plays SS.

reds44
06-11-2006, 08:01 PM
With RISP Felipe is hitting .314 with a .470 OBP and 16 RBIs.

Not clutch? I think he is.

KronoRed
06-11-2006, 08:02 PM
I bet those are soft RBI's ;)

edabbs44
06-11-2006, 08:03 PM
With RISP Felipe is hitting .314 with a .470 OBP.

Not clutch? I think he is.
Uh oh...don't bring up clutch stats. Dunn will be hanging from the rafters in his boxers by the end of this thread. :)

blugrssblood
06-11-2006, 08:06 PM
I'll say it again, I am gald you aren't our GM. Lopez has twice the talent of Eckstein. All Eckstein does is get on base, he is slow, has no range, and has no throwing arm. He is like Scott Hatteberg, except he plays SS.


You are glad that some guy on a message board isn't GM? Is that your attempt at some half hearted personal slam? Oh my God, I am so crushed, I actually wanted to be a Reds GM one day, I don't know what I'll do now, I guess I'll just have to make a cool avatar and post a gazillion times like you. Then maybe somebody from the Reds will notice me, and make me the GM. You can twist it anyway you want, Eckstien is solid, makes all the plays, especially in the clutch. What good is getting to a ball if you don't make the play?

edabbs44
06-11-2006, 08:07 PM
I'll hang the series loss on the BP first. Then on Narron. Then on the lineup. Then on the BP again. Then on Wayne for not getting any BP help. And lastly, on the BP.

blugrssblood
06-11-2006, 08:13 PM
I'll hang the series loss on the BP first. Then on Narron. Then on the lineup. Then on the BP again. Then on Wayne for not getting any BP help. And lastly, on the BP.


OK well, I will just hang game two on Lopez, but it was such a pivitol loss. He is flying thru the air like superman hurrying a throw that didn't need to be hurried, I really wonder if he is trying to show everybody that he can be as flashy as Brandon and all we need is for him to be Felipe. When your a shorstop, on the Reds, the fans have high expectations because afterall, we are home to one of the greatest 5 shortstops of all time, Barry Larkin.

reds44
06-11-2006, 08:14 PM
You are glad that some guy on a message board isn't GM? Is that your attempt at some half hearted personal slam? Oh my God, I am so crushed, I actually wanted to be a Reds GM one day, I don't know what I'll do now, I guess I'll just have to make a cool avatar and post a gazillion times like you. Then maybe somebody from the Reds will notice me, and make me the GM. You can twist it anyway you want, Eckstien is solid, makes all the plays, especially in the clutch. What good is getting to a ball if you don't make the play?
Way to not dispute anything in my post, and not prosent any facts.

I'll say this again
With RISP Felipe is hitting .314 with a .470 OBP and 16 RBIs.

That isn't clutch???

reds44
06-11-2006, 08:15 PM
OK well, I will just hang game two on Lopez, but it was such a pivitol loss. He is flying thru the air like superman hurrying a throw that didn't need to be hurried, I really wonder if he is trying to show everybody that he can be as flashy as Brandon and all we need is for him to be Felipe. When your a shorstop, on the Reds, the fans have high expectations because afterall, we are home to one of the greatest 5 shortstops of all time, Barry Larkin.
Juan Pierre was running, the throw needed to be hurried.

griffeyfreak4
06-11-2006, 08:16 PM
You are glad that some guy on a message board isn't GM? Is that your attempt at some half hearted personal slam? Oh my God, I am so crushed, I actually wanted to be a Reds GM one day, I don't know what I'll do now, I guess I'll just have to make a cool avatar and post a gazillion times like you. Then maybe somebody from the Reds will notice me, and make me the GM. You can twist it anyway you want, Eckstien is solid, makes all the plays, especially in the clutch. What good is getting to a ball if you don't make the play?
Umm.....last time I checked, if a guy is on second, and Felipe makes a diving stop, the guy doesn't score. If the ball goes through, the guy scores on Dunn. Eckstein has a weak throwing arm, is slow, and can't spark an offense like Felipe can. I will take Felipe's bat over Eck's fielding anyday. I'm glad you aren't our GM.

blugrssblood
06-11-2006, 08:18 PM
Way to not dispute anything in my post, and not prosent any facts.

I'll say this again
With RISP Felipe is hitting .314 with a .470 OBP and 16 RBIs.

That isn't clutch???


Are you not paying attention? Hello, McFly!!!The whole point of my original post was that Felipe failed to turn a double play and gave up three runs, plus blew a game in Detroit. DEFENSIVELY HE IS NOT CLUTCH, really, we do not want to get into clutch hitting, this Reds team as a whole has been mediocre at best.

reds44
06-11-2006, 08:20 PM
Umm.....last time I checked, if a guy is on second, and Felipe makes a diving stop, the guy doesn't score. If the ball goes through, the guy scores on Dunn. Eckstein has a weak throwing arm, is slow, and can't spark an offense like Felipe can. I will take Felipe's bat over Eck's fielding anyday. I'm glad you aren't our GM.
Not to mention Eckstein isn't a good fielder anyway. He has below average range and a terrible arm.

blugrssblood
06-11-2006, 08:21 PM
Umm.....last time I checked, if a guy is on second, and Felipe makes a diving stop, the guy doesn't score. If the ball goes through, the guy scores on Dunn. Eckstein has a weak throwing arm, is slow, and can't spark an offense like Felipe can. I will take Felipe's bat over Eck's fielding anyday. I'm glad you aren't our GM.


Well I'm glad that your not the president of the United States, although it would be an improvement

reds44
06-11-2006, 08:22 PM
Are you not paying attention? Hello, McFly!!!The whole point of my original post was that Felipe failed to turn a double play and gave up three runs, plus blew a game in Detroit. DEFENSIVELY HE IS NOT CLUTCH, really, we do not want to get into clutch hitting, this Reds team as a whole has been mediocre at best.
And that is Felipe's fault right? No, Felipe is a clutch hitter.

Felipe didn't turn a missed double play into 3 runs, Austin Kearns losing a fly ball in the lights caused 3 runs. It's not like Phil Nevin was running on the double play, Juan Pierre was. Not the easiest guy to turn a DP on. Lopez is not a very good fielder, but his offense more then makes up for it.

blugrssblood
06-11-2006, 08:46 PM
And that is Felipe's fault right? No, Felipe is a clutch hitter.

Felipe didn't turn a missed double play into 3 runs, Austin Kearns losing a fly ball in the lights caused 3 runs. It's not like Phil Nevin was running on the double play, Juan Pierre was. Not the easiest guy to turn a DP on. Lopez is not a very good fielder, but his offense more then makes up for it.

Ok, you want some facts. You claim that Eckstien is slow, like a Scott Hatteburgh playing short. Well here are some numbers for you...

Since 2001...

Felipe's Career range is 4.24 Eckstien's is 4.42
Felipe career FP .961 Eck .980
Felipe career BA and OBP .261 and .330
Eckstien .285 and .354

sb's since 2001 Felipe with 1,700 career at bats 51 stolen bases
sb's since 2001 Eckstien with 3,000 at bats 97 stolen bases

So if Eckstien is "Scott Hatteburgh at short" then by your admissions, so is Felipe.

reds44
06-11-2006, 08:59 PM
Ok, you want some facts. You claim that Eckstien is slow, like a Scott Hatteburgh playing short. Well here are some numbers for you...

Since 2001...

Felipe's Career range is 4.24 Eckstien's is 4.42
Felipe career FP .961 Eck .980
Felipe career BA and OBP .261 and .330
Eckstien .285 and .354

sb's since 2001 Felipe with 1,700 career at bats 51 stolen bases
sb's since 2001 Eckstien with 3,000 at bats 97 stolen bases

So if Eckstien is "Scott Hatteburgh at short" then by your admissions, so is Felipe.
Since 2001.

My question for you would be what year did Felipe break out? Last season (2005). So showing numbers since 2001 really doesn't tell you the story.

jnwohio
06-11-2006, 09:13 PM
I thougt the 9th inning Friday turned out to be the key to the entire series.

Lopez was impatient early but then worked the count the well only to be called out on a pitch that could have gone either way. Felipe looked like he saw the pitch all the way and purposefully let it go by as opposed to being fooled and not able to pull the trigger. I think the only reason there wasn't more of a howl by the Reds over the call was that with 2 outs left and Phillips and Jr. to bat, everbody (probably even Dusty judging by the TV shots) still thought the Cubbies were toast or at the least the Reds would force extra innngs. Nonetheless, on a pitch that close, Lopez should have been trying to waste it instead of watching it.

However, after Lopez, I thought Phillips and Jr. were the ones who really lost patience. I also think, maybe owing to his youth, Brandon did not realize that with 1 out his objective was to get that man in from 3rd and a walk or nice lazy fly ball were the two most likely ways to get it done. Same for Jr. Yes there were two outs for him but with the Cubs in the shift, if there was ever a time to just try and poke the ball thru the left side, that was it. INstead it looks like he was thinking winning it all instead of getting the one sure one.

Ifs and Buts candy and nuts as they say but I really believe if the Reds would have woin on Friday, they win either 3 or 4 or sweep.

Redmachine2003
06-11-2006, 09:20 PM
I guess it is Lopez's fault for Kearns missing the Flyball in the out field and BP hitting hard shots at everyone and no getting a sack fly in the 9th Friday and noone hitting with runners in scoring position all weekend.

CTA513
06-11-2006, 09:27 PM
Lopez should be cut right now!

Bring up Machado to take his spot!!!!!

:ughmamoru

KronoRed
06-11-2006, 10:17 PM
Didn't he go with Dan O ;)

saboforthird
06-11-2006, 11:48 PM
I'll say it again, I am gald you aren't our GM. Lopez has twice the talent of Eckstein. All Eckstein does is get on base, he is slow, has no range, and has no throwing arm. He is like Scott Hatteberg, except he plays SS.

Switch Lopez and Phillips, and you would eliminate a lot of Lopez's fogginess. Phillips is at least as fast as Lopez and has demonstrated that he has tremendous range, all Lopez would have do is get to the second base bag and make a throw to first. I'm sure that thought never crossed Narron's mind. :rolleyes:

Wheelhouse
06-12-2006, 12:05 AM
I think Lopez is pretty amazing in making the plays he does make while having his head up his butt. That ain't easy.:felo:

bucksfan
06-12-2006, 12:24 AM
I thougt the 9th inning Friday turned out to be the key to the entire series.

Lopez was impatient early but then worked the count the well only to be called out on a pitch that could have gone either way. Felipe looked like he saw the pitch all the way and purposefully let it go by as opposed to being fooled and not able to pull the trigger. I think the only reason there wasn't more of a howl by the Reds over the call was that with 2 outs left and Phillips and Jr. to bat, everbody (probably even Dusty judging by the TV shots) still thought the Cubbies were toast or at the least the Reds would force extra innngs. Nonetheless, on a pitch that close, Lopez should have been trying to waste it instead of watching it.

However, after Lopez, I thought Phillips and Jr. were the ones who really lost patience. I also think, maybe owing to his youth, Brandon did not realize that with 1 out his objective was to get that man in from 3rd and a walk or nice lazy fly ball were the two most likely ways to get it done. Same for Jr. Yes there were two outs for him but with the Cubs in the shift, if there was ever a time to just try and poke the ball thru the left side, that was it. INstead it looks like he was thinking winning it all instead of getting the one sure one.


That is exactly the way I saw that inning also. I know both BP and Jr have beenm hitting well, but given the situation, I woul dhave loved seeing some more patience in that spot. However, either one of them rips a double and I am jumping around the kitchen (that's where the tv with the game is when my wife is watching something). ;)

Mario-Rijo
06-12-2006, 02:41 AM
I do think BlugrssBlood has a bit of an argument. That is in stating Lopez has a large share of the blame to shoulder for not just 1 loss in this series but for many others. Granted his offense is usually stellar, and sometimes makes up for it but he alone has had way too many occassions were his brain farts have cost us greatly. Take that called strike 3 he took the other night, it was "too close to take" as they say in the biz.

Most others on the team don't neccessarily provide as much offense but don't have near the mental blunders let alone the physical ones w/ the exception of EE who doesn't even have a full Major League season under his belt yet. Yeah Adam has had some physical shortcomings surface alot more this year but he doesn't have anywhere close to the mental blunders that Felipe or EE has had. And Felipe almost always has those issues when we are down bye any # of runs or when we are up in a tight game.

I say put him at 2nd base and do it now, thus cutting down on the pressure he seems to be feeling by making it far more routine to make a throw from there as opposed to from SS. I heard Krivsky say not long ago that flip-flopping of that nature would be something that you don't do mid-season and at the time I agreed, but then it occured to me that this is only the case if neither has played the other position before. Well fortunately that does not apply here because both BP & Felipe have played each others positions plenty of enough times for it not to be an issue.

Now on the Eckstein front you are right about one thing David does seem to get to more balls than does Felipe mainly because he is better at positioning himself prior to a given pitch, which apparently Lopey has not completely figured out yet or perhaps he does and the lack of the pitchers ability to throw the ball where and how it is supposed to be delivered is suspect. The Cardinals do that very well as a team which is a seperate discussion that I might be undertaking very soon. But Eck does all of what he does on guile, experience, intelligence and instincts. Areas in which Felipe might improve on if he doesn't get moved from that position. But as far as offensively speaking David couldn't hold Felipe's jockstrap when it comes to talent and execution combined. Felipe is a far more dangerous offensive player in every way. In fact if you take either of these guys strengths and add them to the other's strength's you might have the best SS in all of MLB! Felipe's Talent + Eckstein's Instincts and scrappiness!

I back Blugrss's play here, but Blood you really are not going to get anywhere calling people out and getting offended by a rather pedestrian comment like "I am glad you are not the GM". Simply stated it's par for the course in most places like this. So in the future maybe you could use a bit more tact to prove your point. We all need to be careful of this kind of behavior because we like to run a classy message board here.

buckeyefred
06-12-2006, 02:58 AM
I agree.

He had bases loaded and no out in the ninth and he was the momentum killer Saturday.


Then today (in his next AB) he left Ross (who should be playing everyday) on in the third when he struck out swinging. A base hit there scores a run and gives the Reds and Milton the early lead. A walk brings up Griffey with two on. It also shakes the rookie pitcher for the Cubs. Who now has to pitch from behind.

Instead, Lopez strikes out. Inning over. Momentum Cubs.

Later, in the seventh, he stranded Freel and Ross. At this point, a two run game.

He did draw a lead-off walk in the fifth, but when the pressure is on, batting with RISP he fails.

reds44
06-12-2006, 03:13 AM
He did draw a lead-off walk in the fifth, but when the pressure is on, batting with RISP he fails.
With RISP Felipe is hitting .314 with a .470 OBP and 16 RBIs.

People have bad games, it happens.

SteelSD
06-12-2006, 04:01 AM
With RISP Felipe is hitting .314 with a .470 OBP and 16 RBIs.

People have bad games, it happens.

Welcome to the land of small sample size situational analysis.

Kinda sucks when it's applied to a highly productive player when those doing the bashing really don't understand the level of that player's contribution.

Welcome to my world.;)

Highlifeman21
06-12-2006, 08:57 AM
With RISP Felipe is hitting .314 with a .470 OBP and 16 RBIs.

People have bad games, it happens.


So this is going to be the tale of the tape, who's better: Adam Dunn vs. Felipe Lopez. BARISP.

I'm really beginning to think that given Scott Boras' association with Felipe Lopez, the best place for Felipe Lopez as well as the value Felipe Lopez offers the Cincinnati Reds would be for another team.

Bottomline, he has more value in what we can get for him via trade than he does offering sub-par defensive ability while being a seemingly selfish offensive player.

I'm sure Scott Boras has been in his ear to tell him to swipe more bags b/c then he'll be a more rounded player if he can add a SB threat to his arsenal.

I'm sure I'll take some heat for continually suggesting we move Felipe Lopez for something that can ultimately help our team, but am I alone in this thought?

Krusty
06-12-2006, 09:04 AM
Starting next season, I wouldn't mind seeing Junior in LF, Denorfia CF, Phillips SS, Lopez 2b.

oneupper
06-12-2006, 09:23 AM
How about cutting Lopez some slack.

He's had a fine year with the bat, on the bases and he's been adequate in the field. He's inexperienced even though we seem to think he's been around forever.

Last year at this point he was still filling in for Aurilia and we were all still wondering if he could make a throw to first. Now Narron has a guy he can pencil every day in a tough position to fill (an All-Star in 2005).

He had a bad series...a terrible one. It happens. It was worse because the rest of the team didn't "pick it up" and we lost some games.

Frankly, though...I'll take Lopez. He doesn't hack, sees lots of pitches, gets on base, can make the routine plays, usually runs well. A lot more positives than negatives.

Maybe he'd be better switching with Phillips. Maybe not. But Phillips is unproven...with a third of a season under his belt. Hardly enough to justify such a drastic change.

I believe that Narron would be wise to remember that Lopez, (like EdE) is young and will press when things go wrong, leading to mental errors. Give him a spell once every three weeks or so (Olmedo can start and can use some PT too) so he can chill.

Newman4
06-12-2006, 09:44 AM
I'll take a guy like Eckstien over Lopez anyday.

George, is that you? :evil:

Newman4
06-12-2006, 09:51 AM
Even after he did that, he threw a one hopper that was a very pickable ball that RA made a half-hearted attempt to pick.

I'm glad someone notices RA's inability to pick one hoppers at first. I have no stats to back that statement up, but after several observations of RA playing first base, it appears that he is able to dig low throws out of the dirt but not efficient at one hoppers.

Roy Tucker
06-12-2006, 09:55 AM
I have no problem with Felipe as a hitter. Yeah, he may have worked his last AB on Friday night a little better, but he certainly has been productive all year.

Where I do have a little problem is with his fielding. His range is barely adequate for a MLB SS. He seems to have trouble anticipating where the ball will be hit and often has to react when the ball is hit. Plus, he seems to have problems with batted balls that are at the edge of his range. He lacks the fluidity or athleticism (or whatever you want to call it) to be able to make those plays at top speed and be able to do something productive with the ball.

Phillips has better range and is able to make good plays at the edge of his range. A flip-flop 0f Phillips and Lopez certainly seems to make sense. But like many have said, let's wait and see if Phillips is for real and then make a switch in ST 2007.

GAC
06-12-2006, 10:08 AM
and give some to narron. bases loaded and you bring in a pitcher(yan) who has horrible control. gets behind and he grooves a fastball, game over. and many others. and oh, lets just keep moving that lineup around.


Yan, since coming to the Reds, has pitched pretty darn good for us. His ERA, prior to that Saturday game, was 1.91 (5 games). And he has only walked 2 batters total in those 5 games prior to Saturday.

GAC
06-12-2006, 10:14 AM
Are you not paying attention? Hello, McFly!!!The whole point of my original post was that Felipe failed to turn a double play and gave up three runs

I agree he didn't turn the DP; but how do you charge him with the 3 runs?

Isn't that the fault of the pitcher?

I'm not gonna hang this loss (or losses) solely on Felipe. On Saturday we left 11 men on base - and the blame can easily be spread around.

They were all up there hacking like a 95 yr old man with one lung and emphysema. ;)

Sounds to me like someone just doesn't like Lopez (which is fine).

Johnny Footstool
06-12-2006, 10:29 AM
Pinning a team loss on one player is the hallmark of a small mind.

westofyou
06-12-2006, 10:39 AM
Pinning a team loss on one player is the hallmark of a small mind.
Finger pointing in a team sport that divides attacks and defense into 9 different surges is kinda fruitless IMO, it leads to "down the rabbit hole" thinking.

big boy
06-12-2006, 11:55 AM
A flip-flop 0f Phillips and Lopez certainly seems to make sense. But like many have said, let's wait and see if Phillips is for real and then make a switch in ST 2007.

That switch just doesn't add up to me. I can't see BP being better than Felo. He would have the same growing pains that Felo is (hopefully) putting behind him. When someone like Janish is ready, that would be the time to switch. We'll see what happens.

Mario-Rijo
06-12-2006, 12:42 PM
Pinning a team loss on one player is the hallmark of a small mind.


Wow Jhonny, could you be anymore confrontational?! :thumbdown

KoryMac5
06-12-2006, 01:51 PM
Since I joined RedsZone last year I always have noticed that after two or three tough games many different "the sky is falling scenario's" start circulating. It happened when we had the rough stretch before we started the road trip and it is happening now. Guess what the sky hasn't fallen and the Reds are still in contention. Lopez is a good young player and I would challenge his naysayers to name 5 other shortstops they would rather have. His defense when it is good is very good but when it is bad he is awful. This is true of many young fielders. Lopez's hitting and fielding woes are directly connected because when he makes an error he wants to make up for it at the plate, a lot of young players do this and that's when they start pressing. The thing about Lopez is that he is still young, same with Phillips and Edwin which means the Reds can work with them. I'd much rather see our finished project than somebody else's cast off's. This season has been a roller coaster ride and I for one love roller coasters.

IslandRed
06-12-2006, 01:54 PM
That switch just doesn't add up to me. I can't see BP being better than Felo. He would have the same growing pains that Felo is (hopefully) putting behind him.

Phillips wouldn't have much in the way of growing pains. He played a lot of shortstop coming up, including all of last year, and played it pretty well. He was pushed to second base at various times because he was blocked in Cleveland by Vizquel and then Peralta, not because of an inability to play short.

dabvu2498
06-12-2006, 02:08 PM
The thing about Lopez is that he is still young,
The young man has played a total of 391 Major League games at SS (82 at 3B, 12 at 2B for those who are interested). I'm a little less inclined to say that his poor defensive play is based on his "youth" than I am to say he's not that good with the glove.

That said, I think the offense he gives from the position is worth what he lacks in defense. Unfortunately I think that about a few guys on this team.

blugrssblood
06-12-2006, 06:38 PM
So this is going to be the tale of the tape, who's better: Adam Dunn vs. Felipe Lopez. BARISP.

I'm really beginning to think that given Scott Boras' association with Felipe Lopez, the best place for Felipe Lopez as well as the value Felipe Lopez offers the Cincinnati Reds would be for another team.

Bottomline, he has more value in what we can get for him via trade than he does offering sub-par defensive ability while being a seemingly selfish offensive player.

I'm sure Scott Boras has been in his ear to tell him to swipe more bags b/c then he'll be a more rounded player if he can add a SB threat to his arsenal.

I'm sure I'll take some heat for continually suggesting we move Felipe Lopez for something that can ultimately help our team, but am I alone in this thought?


I do think with his offense he makes up for some of his lousy defense and poor instincts but I would still rather have a rock at short, especially if the Reds are going to continue to dilly dally with Encarnacion the Butcher at third. Having those two on the left side will never work. Errors kill a team not only from the point of giving the other team more outs, but also making your pitchers throw more pitches and ruining momentum. As far as Adam Dunn goes, his offense this team cannot live without, his presence in the lineup does more than his actual production and trading him would send this team backwards. I am not for trading Lopez, but I still feel he blew that pivitol second game, no telling how much of a roll this team would have continued on, Now trading Jason Larue and getting rid of Edwin E is another story.

klw
06-12-2006, 06:41 PM
Felipe Lopez come on down, you are the next contestant on

Whipping Bou du Jour

http://members.tripod.com/~swingin/behindthescenes/fordwhip.jpg

pedro
06-12-2006, 07:37 PM
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

TC81190
06-12-2006, 07:38 PM
I do think with his offense he makes up for some of his lousy defense and poor instincts but I would still rather have a rock at short, especially if the Reds are going to continue to dilly dally with Encarnacion the Butcher at third. Having those two on the left side will never work. Errors kill a team not only from the point of giving the other team more outs, but also making your pitchers throw more pitches and ruining momentum. As far as Adam Dunn goes, his offense this team cannot live without, his presence in the lineup does more than his actual production and trading him would send this team backwards. I am not for trading Lopez, but I still feel he blew that pivitol second game, no telling how much of a roll this team would have continued on, Now trading Jason Larue and getting rid of Edwin E is another story.

Glad you're not the GM.

pedro
06-12-2006, 07:43 PM
by all means let's dump the 23 year old future star because he's having problems with his throws less than halfway through his first full season. That sounds like a great plan for success.

TC81190
06-12-2006, 07:45 PM
by all means let's dump the 23 year old future star because he's having problems with his throws less than halfway through his first full season. That sounds like a great plan for success.


We got Aurilia. If we still had Womack this move would already have been made.



:evil:

reds44
06-12-2006, 07:48 PM
I do think with his offense he makes up for some of his lousy defense and poor instincts but I would still rather have a rock at short, especially if the Reds are going to continue to dilly dally with Encarnacion the Butcher at third. Having those two on the left side will never work. Errors kill a team not only from the point of giving the other team more outs, but also making your pitchers throw more pitches and ruining momentum. As far as Adam Dunn goes, his offense this team cannot live without, his presence in the lineup does more than his actual production and trading him would send this team backwards. I am not for trading Lopez, but I still feel he blew that pivitol second game, no telling how much of a roll this team would have continued on, Now trading Jason Larue and getting rid of Edwin E is another story.
For the 3rd time,

I am glad you aren't the GM.

Why do you want to get rid of the 23 year old stud 3B? 2 months of throwing issues and you want to get rid of him?

deltachi8
06-12-2006, 07:48 PM
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

Thats a perfectly cromulent opinion.

KronoRed
06-12-2006, 07:53 PM
We got Aurilia. If we still had Womack this move would already have been made.



:evil:
Nobody under 33 should be the rallying cry

TC81190
06-12-2006, 07:55 PM
Nobody under 33 should be the rallying cry


33? Pleeease. We need EXPERIENCE.

GAC
06-12-2006, 08:39 PM
Folks - lets all back up and take a deep breath. A forum is about expressing one's opinion.

Disagree yes. But can't we do so without personal attacks and condescending remarks?

Gets us nowhere.

deltachi8
06-12-2006, 09:08 PM
Folks - lets all back up and take a deep breath. A forum is about expressing one's opinion.

Disagree yes. But can't we do so without personal attacks and condescending remarks?

Gets us nowhere.

:thumbup:

blugrssblood
06-12-2006, 10:13 PM
by all means let's dump the 23 year old future star because he's having problems with his throws less than halfway through his first full season. That sounds like a great plan for success.


Putting words in my mouth? I said to get rid of Edwin, you said it was because of his throwing problems. He is a butcher at third, he played last year as well. He has problems at third other than throwing problems, and he tries to pull everything. Once in a great while he will swing late and hit one the other way. He makes Willie Greene look like Brooks Robinson, I see this is not the place to vent and discuss Reds related issues. I also see that a certain poster is using mults much like he did on a previous message board. Anyone a fan of Neil Young?Our defense sucks people, continue to sugarcoat it. Our offense is also very in-consistent, the only thing I can think of, is it is related to scouting and our hitting coach. This team is not even close to contending, would have been nice to talk about it, but the inmates have full control, Adios

:mooner:

buckeyefred
06-12-2006, 10:27 PM
Felipe is having another stellar game. 4K's and error.

It's time to make a move. The SS position must deliver more. Day in and Day out. Stellar offense. Or stellar defense. Right now we are getting neither.

Put him on the block.

Gizmo
06-12-2006, 10:29 PM
I agree with George's assessment. He's played every game. He needs a rest.

CincyReds2003
06-12-2006, 10:39 PM
Felipe is having another stellar game. 4K's and error.

It's time to make a move. The SS position must deliver more. Day in and Day out. Stellar offense. Or stellar defense. Right now we are getting neither.

Put him on the block.


They do have the depth to replace him. (e.g. Ryan Freel or Brandon Phillips)

KoryMac5
06-12-2006, 10:43 PM
You make that move and it will haunt the Reds for quite some time. Young players make mistakes and than start pressing at the plate nothing more nothing less. Weeks for the Brewers has 20 errors so far this year but I don't hear much about the Beer boys looking to deal him.

captainmorgan07
06-12-2006, 10:47 PM
put olmedo in there tommorrow felo needs a rest

tripleaaaron
06-12-2006, 10:48 PM
I agree we shouldn't just move him, not now anyway, maybe later when Boras demands a huge salary

reds44
06-12-2006, 10:49 PM
:eek:

Let's trade our 26 year old all-star SS. WOOOO-HOOOOO


He is in a slump, it happens.

reds44
06-12-2006, 10:50 PM
They do have the depth to replace him. (e.g. Ryan Freel or Brandon Phillips)
Ryan Freel has never played SS.

kbrake
06-12-2006, 10:51 PM
Why do people insist on trading players while their value is at its lowest point?

CTA513
06-12-2006, 10:54 PM
Felipe is having another stellar game. 4K's and error.

It's time to make a move. The SS position must deliver more. Day in and Day out. Stellar offense. Or stellar defense. Right now we are getting neither.

Put him on the block.

So.... yeah you could have posted this in the other Lopez sucks thread.


:thumbup:

KronoRed
06-12-2006, 10:54 PM
Why do people insist on trading players while their value is at its lowest point?
And asking for the moon at the same time :lol:

RedFanAlways1966
06-12-2006, 11:13 PM
Nonsense. Who do you put at SS that does better? Good question. Trade Felipe for another SS? Who?

The REDS are 9 over .500 entering tonight's game. With Felipe Lopez playing SS. His fielding needs improvement. He is young. You do not get sensations overnight in MLB cities like Cincinnati. Lopez is slumping a bit lately. It happens in MLB. You do not put a young SS with potential on the block due to a slump or fielding that needs improvement. The same can be said for Edwin Encarnacion.

dman
06-12-2006, 11:21 PM
Lopez is a small fish in a big pond. Even for all of his faults, he's still the most viable SS we have. I'd rather put some of our deadweight relievers on the block if that was at all possible. Those are the bigger fish that have been giving us more problems than Felipe has.

saboforthird
06-12-2006, 11:27 PM
I think Lopez would take a move to 2B as a "step down" just as Junior would not like playing in right or left. Phillips, in my opinion, seems to have his head in the game more often than Lopez. I know, subjective opinion on such matters, but it seems to me that Phillips makes a mistake and improves. Lopez pouts and continues to make the same mistake. I don't know, Lopez just doesn't look happy out there.

kaldaniels
06-12-2006, 11:28 PM
I agree with George's assessment. He's played every game. He needs a rest.

No no no...not Georgie G's assesment...Mr. Welsh's.

CTA513
06-12-2006, 11:29 PM
Trade the whole team and bring up the Dayton Dragons!

KronoRed
06-12-2006, 11:31 PM
Trade the whole team and bring up the Dayton Dragons!
That will get Bruce up here at least ;)

mole44
06-12-2006, 11:35 PM
an easy swap of phillips to SS and lopez to 2nd would cure all

CTA513
06-12-2006, 11:44 PM
That will get Bruce up here at least ;)

Denorfia would still be stuck in AAA.

:fineprint

BUTLER REDSFAN
06-12-2006, 11:54 PM
lopez suffers from "steve sax-itis"--dont know why he cant complete a throw to first...then again not sure why he tried to steal second the other nite with 1 out griffey up and runner at third...or why he watches a pitch go right down the middle with 2 strikes and bases loaded..or why he throws to second for a force when the runner is practically standing on the bag or why night after night when the camera is on him he seems to have that "oh duh" look--its like he's thinking about something else during the game-not trying to be funny but wonder if he has marital problems or something??

BUTLER REDSFAN
06-12-2006, 11:55 PM
did i leave anything out?

Boss-Hog
06-12-2006, 11:57 PM
We can (and will) do without all the "I'm glad you're not the ____" comments that have littered this thread. There's a proper way to respectfully disagree with someone and that's not it.

RedsManRick
06-12-2006, 11:57 PM
Dunn strikes out too much. Just wanted to contriute to the thread.

redram
06-13-2006, 12:07 AM
I agree with George's assessment. He's played every game. He needs a rest.


Agreed, he looks tired. I cannot understand why he cannot have a couple of games off for crying out loud. Phillips could play SS and Freel 2nd, or the other way around. Lopez is a major asset to this team but he is not a freaking robot that never needs to rest. Give him a couple of days off and he will be back to his old self. Everyone needs to get off his A$$ and support him. This team is now going through a small slump, but this is to be expected from them this year. BUT, This team is a thousand time better than last year. They will get it going again starting tuesday.

Fil3232
06-13-2006, 12:35 AM
Trading Lopez is an interesting subject.

If I were Krivsky I would give it a look and see what teams would be willing to give up in return. Before a deal would be made though, some things must be examined.

First, I beleive Lopez's worth is slightly exaggerated on the heels of last season. While Lopez is more than a capable hitter, I doubt we'll see the power numbers and overall offensive display of 2005 on a consistent basis. This is ironic because the whole trading Lopez situation greatly hinges on whether Brandon Phillips' current year will be his norm. If it is (and I believe it is somewhere south of what we're seeing), trading Lopez is almost a no-brainer. Granted, of course, an Olmedo/Bergolla/Player X being able to stay above water at the plate (.750ish OPS) while providing above-average glove at 2B.

What makes it even more appealling is the pay raise Lopez is due to receive and the extreme lack of pitching depth the Reds have. If Krivsky could pull off an interesting arm or three I would be very interested in dealing Lopez.

TC81190
06-13-2006, 12:44 AM
Does everybody forget that Lopez was an Allstar last year? He's slumping, last year's numbers should get an IMPROVEMENT, not get worse.

Ron Madden
06-13-2006, 01:19 AM
I believe young talented players catch more grief in Cincy, than in any other city in MLB. Could the local media have anything to do with this ?

reds44
06-13-2006, 01:21 AM
I believe young talented players catch more grief in Cincy, than in any other city in MLB. Could the local media have anything to do with this ?
Dude what are you talking about? Felipe, EE, and Dunn SUCK!!!! We would be lucky to trade them and get anything out of it.

;)

Seriously though, I don't mind how impatient the fans or media are with our young guys, as long as our manager and GM are patient.

Johnny Footstool
06-13-2006, 01:21 AM
lopez suffers from "steve sax-itis"--dont know why he cant complete a throw to first...then again not sure why he tried to steal second the other nite with 1 out griffey up and runner at third...or why he watches a pitch go right down the middle with 2 strikes and bases loaded..or why he throws to second for a force when the runner is practically standing on the bag or why night after night when the camera is on him he seems to have that "oh duh" look--its like he's thinking about something else during the game-not trying to be funny but wonder if he has marital problems or something??

I wonder the same about people who choose to focus on one player's performance when the entire team is mired in a losing streak.

Or people with such short attention spans that they call for a player to be traded based on a brief slump.

Ltlabner
06-13-2006, 01:42 AM
...or why night after night when the camera is on him he seems to have that "oh duh" look--its like he's thinking about something else during the game-not trying to be funny but wonder if he has marital problems or something??

What look is a ballplayer supposed to have when the camera is on them? Smiles? A Grimice? A Scowl? Look Agery? Look Sad? What? Next thing people will complain about how he walks back to the dougout after a strike out or that his shoes are too dirty.

Now, he is experiencing a slump and defensive issues, that is to be sure. But lets focus on meanifull ways that he can be helped, not worry about completely non-material and non-supported worries about his appearace or demeanor.

BUTLER REDSFAN
06-13-2006, 02:37 PM
my comments about the way he is looking on tv at least may be misconstued-it just appears to me he truly has a look as if the last thing on his mind is the game..his recent performance seems to concur with that

BRM
06-13-2006, 02:57 PM
I believe young talented players catch more grief in Cincy, than in any other city in MLB. Could the local media have anything to do with this ?

It sure seems that way sometimes. It makes one think Cincy fans would rather see a team full of 35 year old gritty veterans scrap their way to 100 loss seasons.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-13-2006, 03:34 PM
my comments about the way he is looking on tv at least may be misconstued-it just appears to me he truly has a look as if the last thing on his mind is the game..his recent performance seems to concur with that


Sounds like your describing Kearns as it has always appeared to me that he is either extremely constipated or not enjoying himself out there.

As for Lopez, that's the way he looked last year (when he was firing on all cylinders). Some players just come off as laid back. From what I've heard and read, not many players put the extra work in that Lopez does.

dabvu2498
06-13-2006, 03:36 PM
I believe young talented players catch more grief in Cincy, than in any other city in MLB. Could the local media have anything to do with this ?
The Boston Globe and New York Daily News say hello. :wave: :wave:

Stewie
06-13-2006, 03:42 PM
I believe young talented players catch more grief in Cincy, than in any other city in MLB. Could the local media have anything to do with this ?

You've obviously never been to Philadelphia.

blumj
06-13-2006, 03:43 PM
The Boston Globe and New York Daily News say hello. :wave: :wave:
Not true. We only treat the vets like garbage up here.

CTA513
06-13-2006, 03:46 PM
Why hasnt Lopez been traded yet? He should have already been gone by now!!!!

:ughmamoru


;)

dabvu2498
06-13-2006, 03:47 PM
Not true. We only treat the vets like garbage up here.
And Josh Beckett this year.

http://www.soxaholix.com/tp/2006/06/night_in_the_ru.html

MWM
06-13-2006, 03:53 PM
I don't understand why people think they can look at a guy's face on TV and draw all kinds of conclusions based on nothing more. I mean do you seriously believe you can look at Felipe on TV and tell just how into the game he is? I don't think so.

westofyou
06-13-2006, 03:55 PM
I don't understand why people think they can look at a guy's face on TV and draw all kinds of conclusions based on nothing more.

Me either, I use stats.

http://www.psychics.co.uk/images/phren002.jpg

reds44
06-13-2006, 03:56 PM
I get a feeling this thread will soon be locked as well.

dabvu2498
06-13-2006, 03:58 PM
I get a feeling this thread will soon be locked as well.
Why? The Banana Phone callers haven't found this thread yet.

Redsland
06-13-2006, 03:59 PM
I get a feeling this thread will soon be locked as well.
Lopez doesn't get paid to smile. He gets paid to drive in the OBP guys, like Dunn for example.

:p:

pedro
06-13-2006, 04:02 PM
I don't understand why people think they can look at a guy's face on TV and draw all kinds of conclusions based on nothing more. I mean do you seriously believe you can look at Felipe on TV and tell just how into the game he is? I don't think so.


Phrenology rocks dude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

Redsland
06-13-2006, 04:05 PM
I don't understand why people think they can look at a guy's face on TV and draw all kinds of conclusions based on nothing more. I mean do you seriously believe you can look at Felipe on TV and tell just how into the game he is? I don't think so.
I think you look a little miffed, and I can't even see your face.

:D

CTA513
06-13-2006, 04:07 PM
Has Lopez been traded yet?

Machado is ready to take over Lopez locker right now.

;)

KronoRed
06-13-2006, 04:20 PM
I believe young talented players catch more grief in Cincy, than in any other city in MLB. Could the local media have anything to do with this ?
Young players aren't Foster,Bench,Rose,Perez or Morgan.

So they suck ;)

KronoRed
06-13-2006, 04:21 PM
Why? The Banana Phone callers haven't found this thread yet.
They will, they have a hotline called the "Bashers information service" :evil: