PDA

View Full Version : The Bullpen Is Beyond Description



WVRedsFan
06-11-2006, 09:56 PM
The facts:

Over the series, with what was to the rest of the league, the hapless Cubs took 3 of 4. Our starters, in 26.2 innings, allowed only 22 hits and 10 earned runs. The ERA was 3.43. That's impressive. Four quality starts and a 1-3 record to show for it. Why? Our bullpen logged 9.1 innings, giving up 16 hits and 9 runs. Once reliever, Chris Hammond, pitched two innings and allowed 7 hits and 5 runs.

Although the Reds only scored 17 runs in the series (avg. 4.2) and had only 29 hits (avg. 7), they would have won two of those games had it not been for the bullpen. I'm sure he's working on this, but Krivsky needs to address this now (he should have addressed it earlier of course).

I don't know what to say about the hitting. It mystifies me how a team can be unconscious and bunch together runs one day and not be able to hit a rookie pitcher the next. Someone else will have to figure that one out, but the bullpen is a no-brainer. DFA the junk and reach into the AAA stash for anyone. It couldn't get any worse.

edabbs44
06-11-2006, 10:02 PM
The facts:

Over the series, with what was to the rest of the league, the hapless Cubs took 3 of 4. Our starters, in 26.2 innings, allowed only 22 hits and 10 earned runs. The ERA was 3.43. That's impressive. Four quality starts and a 1-3 record to show for it. Why? Our bullpen logged 9.1 innings, giving up 16 hits and 9 runs. Once reliever, Chris Hammond, pitched two innings and allowed 7 hits and 5 runs.

Although the Reds only scored 17 runs in the series (avg. 4.2) and had only 29 hits (avg. 7), they would have won two of those games had it not been for the bullpen. I'm sure he's working on this, but Krivsky needs to address this now (he should have addressed it earlier of course).

I don't know what to say about the hitting. It mystifies me how a team can be unconscious and bunch together runs one day and not be able to hit a rookie pitcher the next. Someone else will have to figure that one out, but the bullpen is a no-brainer. DFA the junk and reach into the AAA stash for anyone. It couldn't get any worse.
Well put. The BP has been embarrassing to say the least.

flyer85
06-11-2006, 10:06 PM
Well put. The BP has been embarrassing to say the least.which is not a surprise

KronoRed
06-11-2006, 10:14 PM
Fix it Wayno

M2
06-11-2006, 10:33 PM
Unfortunately Clay Carroll, Rawly Eastwick, John Franco, Rob Dibble and Scott Sullivan aren't walking through the door and it doesn't look like the teams that are dropping by the wayside have a lot to offer in terms of bullpen help.

I don't think Krivsky's going to have a legitimate shot at fixing the pen until after the season.

Falls City Beer
06-11-2006, 10:35 PM
I would really hate to lose sight of the fact that the rotation needs just as much if not more help than the bullpen. Not only for now, but for the long term as well. Particularly when the draft and the minors have a number of interesting bullpen arms but virtually no starters on the horizon.

M2
06-11-2006, 10:43 PM
I would really hate to lose sight of the fact that the rotation needs just as much if not more help than the bullpen. Not only for now, but for the long term as well. Particularly when the draft and the minors have a number of interesting bullpen arms but virtually no starters on the horizon.

Bingo.

Red in Chicago
06-11-2006, 11:22 PM
let's not forget that austin kearns is partially to blame for chris hammonds sorry totals...

edabbs44
06-11-2006, 11:24 PM
let's not forget that austin kearns is partially to blame for chris hammonds sorry totals...
I think Hammond was an illusion in May. It will be scary if he gets more responsibility than he has now.

westofyou
06-11-2006, 11:34 PM
Unfortunately Clay Carroll, Rawly Eastwick, John Franco, Rob Dibble and Scott Sullivan aren't walking through the door and it doesn't look like the teams that are dropping by the wayside have a lot to offer in terms of bullpen help.

I don't think Krivsky's going to have a legitimate shot at fixing the pen until after the season.
Yep, the last time the Reds had a reliever that topped a run better than the league average was 2003 and it was Felix Herdia, we were spoiled by the plethora of relievers that Jack rode from 97-2000.

But he had a knack for it and the Reds had young arms to lean on. The current crop of older guys and Coffey won't succeed in piling up the innigs a stud BP does.

flyer85
06-11-2006, 11:41 PM
I would really hate to lose sight of the fact that the rotation needs just as much if not more help than the bullpen. Not only for now, but for the long term as well. Particularly when the draft and the minors have a number of interesting bullpen arms but virtually no starters on the horizon.I don't see a solution to that in the short term to help this team. The only kind of starter I can see them acquiring is someone who has failed with his current team(Lohse, O. Perez, etc).

Blimpie
06-12-2006, 12:32 AM
Unfortunately Clay Carroll, Rawly Eastwick, John Franco, Rob Dibble and Scott Sullivan aren't walking through the door... M2: The tone of your post sounds vaguely familiar....methinks it strongly resembles the intellectual property of a former college/former NBA/current college coach who invoked a similar passage during his now famous "fellowship of the miserable" press conference?

By the way, I agree with both of you wholeheartedly. :cool:

Kc61
06-12-2006, 12:44 AM
Friday night's loss was due to defensive lapses and repeated failure to hit with men on base in close game.

Saturday's loss was partially bullpen (Yan) but also failure to score.

Today the bullpen was horrid but Reds got next to nothing off a AA rookie.

Bullpen is bad and needs bolstering, no doubt. But team has to hit and field and hasn't done that.

Gallen5862
06-12-2006, 12:48 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/transactions
Kansas city Royals Acquired pitcher Brandon Duckworth from the Pittsburgh Pirates for cash considerations; designated pitcher Kyle Snyder for assignment.

New York Yankees Activated pitcher Shawn Chacon from the 15-day disabled list; designated pitcher Scott Erickson for assignment.

Would Snyder and or Erickson be worth a look at this point? I think I would take a chance.

Gallen5862
06-12-2006, 12:53 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=5456
#39 Kyle Snyder | RP
Proper Name: Kyle Ehren Snyder
Born: September 9, 1977
Houston, TX
Height: 6-8
Weight: 215 lbs.
Age: 28
Pronounced: N/A Bats: B
Throws: Right
Pos: RP
Experience: 2 years
2006 Salary: $N/A
College: U. of North Carolina REC 0-0 | SV 0 | ERA 22.50 | WHIP 5.50
SPLIT G IP H R HR BB SO W L Sv P/GS WHIP BAA ERA
Season 1 2.0 10 9 1 1 2 0 0 0 53.0 5.50 .556 22.50
Career 29 123.1 159 90 15 32 60 2 9 0 83.5 1.55 .314 5.91
Last 7 1 2.0 10 9 1 1 2 0 0 0 -- 5.50 .556 22.50
Projected 3 5 26 24 3 3 5 0 0 0 53.0 5.50 .556 22.50

It looks like the guy is a tall pitcher.

Mario-Rijo
06-12-2006, 01:01 AM
I recently seen Erickson pitch for the NYY, he looked better than does a couple of arms in our pen. He may be worth looking at!

flyer85
06-12-2006, 01:04 AM
Picking up the refuse of another team is not going to solve the problem

Gallen5862
06-12-2006, 01:06 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4498
46 Scott Erickson | SP Roster:
Proper Name: Scott Gavin Erickson
Born: February 2, 1968
Long Beach, CA
Height: 6-4
Weight: 230 lbs.
Age: 38
Pronounced: N/A Bats: Right
Throws: Right
Pos: SP
Experience: 14 years
2006 Salary: $N/A
College: Arizona REC 0-0 | SV 0 | ERA 7.94 | WHIP 1.76

Season 9 11.1 13 12 2 7 2 0 0 0 0.0 1.76 .283 7.94
Career 389 2360.2 2586 1306 228 865 1252 142 136 0 98.7 1.46 .282 4.59
Last 7 2 3.2 7 6 1 0 1 0 0 0 -- 1.91 .412 12.27
Projected 24 29 34 31 5 18 5 0 0 0 0.0 1.76 .283 7.94

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2333278
Thursday, February 16, 2006
Erickson signs minor-league deal with Yankees

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Associated Press

TAMPA, Fla. -- Scott Erickson agreed Thursday to a minor league contract with the New York Yankees, giving the team another backup in case of pitching breakdowns.


Erickson

The 38-year-old right-hander threw for 10 minutes off a mound Thursday at the minor league complex while manager Joe Torre watched along with coaches Ron Guidry and Joe Kerrigan and vice president Billy Connors. The Yankees gave Erickson the tryout at the suggestion of Jason Giambi.

"He threw the ball pretty well," Guidry said. "He said he's been throwing since Thanksgiving."

Erickson was 1-4 with a 6.02 ERA in eight starts and 11 relief appearances last season with the Los Angeles Dodgers, who cut him in late July. He also has pitched for Minnesota, Baltimore, the New York Mets and Texas, going 142-136 with a 4.57 ERA in 14 seasons.

His deal calls for a $15,000 monthly salary at Triple-A and if added to the 40-man roster would get a $550,000, one-year contract. He must pass a physical Friday for the deal to be finalized.


"We will need choices, you always do," general manager Brian Cashman said. "It's somewhat of an insurance policy. He's also prepared to go to Triple-A."

It appears that his contract is reasonable. Do we want to take a chance on him? It looks like a low risk to try.

SteelSD
06-12-2006, 03:49 AM
Picking up the refuse of another team is not going to solve the problem

That's really the long and the short of it. Esteban Yan? Good God. Joe Mays? Ugh. That's not a cure, that's a disease. Hammond, Weathers, Mercker have all outlived their usefullness. If rumors of Rick White's contract are true, then his release date is June 15th.

Remove Coffey from the mix and it's a pen that's posted a 5.39 ERA. That's actually worse than last year's awful collective. The irony is that the Reds just moved Coffey to the closer slot- meaning that they'll be saving their best bullpen arm for high-leverage situations that he just might not see considering that the rest of the pen will do a good job of self destructing during anything resembling a high-leverage situation before the ninth Inning.

And the worst part is that this team is a squad that can afford to swap prospects for bullpen arms. Denorfia is rotting in AAA and the Reds can't find a team who has a reliable bullpen arm to swap for him? Nonsense. Ditto if the Reds can't find arms from a Larue deal. Ty Pelland, Travis Chick, Phil Dumatrait? Package 'em and move 'em out. Carlos Guevara get thee to the Show and take David Shafer with you.

The beginning of a good pen is there. The tools to acquire a good pen are there. Yet no good pen because the Reds appear more interested in trying to cull a good pen from the refuse of the league. Hey, that's fine if Krivsky and Co. have given up on the season and are looking at a better potential long-term plan. Just seems to me that the Reds are sitting and waiting when there's no reason to sit and wait.

zombie-a-go-go
06-12-2006, 06:50 AM
Picking up the refuse of another team is not going to solve the problem

Yeah; you're not going to find, say, a 3.09 ERA reliever just sitting around on someone else's scrap heap to be had for a song... :hancock: :evil:

oneupper
06-12-2006, 09:38 AM
Picking up the refuse of another team is not going to solve the problem

I agree in principle, but Phillips and David Ross are prime examples of serviceable players rescued from the trash heap. Krivsky hasn't been able to get it to work for the BP yet, but I'm not going to knock him for trying.

Last year everyone was raving about the Brewers rag-tag BP crew, assembled cheaply. This year they (Turn)Blow...

I'm sure Krivsky is working on something, I just don't think other GMs are ready to deal.

Kc61
06-12-2006, 10:22 AM
Agree with Steel on this. Chatanooga has been extremely successful this year, largely because of its bullpen. Reds need to aggressively move some of those relievers up the chain. Even if it doesn't pay immediate dividends, the Reds can't expect to win with this ancient crowd manning the bullpen.

Reds announcers said yesterday that there is nobody at AAA ready to help in the pen. Look to AA, though, and there could be some help.

M2
06-12-2006, 10:47 AM
Agree with Steel on this. Chatanooga has been extremely successful this year, largely because of its bullpen. Reds need to aggressively move some of those relievers up the chain. Even if it doesn't pay immediate dividends, the Reds can't expect to win with this ancient crowd manning the bullpen.

Reds announcers said yesterday that there is nobody at AAA ready to help in the pen. Look to AA, though, and there could be some help.

That might be worth a shot, but those guys are more than likely on a Coffey timeline. He tore up AA in 2004, struggled in the majors in 2005 and has broken through in 2006. You might not get guys like Guevara and Shafer making a positive difference in the majors until 2008. That's not to say the Reds shouldn't give them a shot, but you've got to realize that in 2006 it might be a long shot.

Kc61
06-12-2006, 10:54 AM
That might be worth a shot, but those guys are more than likely on a Coffey timeline. He tore up AA in 2004, struggled in the majors in 2005 and has broken through in 2006. You might not get guys like Guevara and Shafer making a positive difference in the majors until 2008. That's not to say the Reds shouldn't give them a shot, but you've got to realize that in 2006 it might be a long shot.

I agree. As Chatanooga finishes its first half this week, I would move the lefty (Coutelangas?), Shafer and Guevera to AAA. Then see how they do. But if any of them do ok at Louiville, I would get them to the big club. I don't believe in skipping AAA, would give all three a taste of AAA, but wouldn't keep them there long. Not advocating bringing them up to Cincy immediately, just moving them along aggressively.

Cooper
06-12-2006, 10:54 AM
Anyone that has a 12K/9 ratio and a low ERA in AA needs to come on up. There's an adjustment period i agree, but i'm thinking the adjutment period stats are gonna be something along the lines of a 5.00 ERA -well, that's what we are living with now --might as well bite the bullet and get it over with ....with the hope that they may exceed their expectations.

Spitball
06-12-2006, 01:02 PM
I agree that perhaps the best avenue to go down might be down on the farm, but sometimes relievers on the major league level just need a change. It's a hard call though, who's burned out and who just needs a change?

I wonder about Keith Foulke. I watched him yesterday versus Texas and he got rocked every time he got the ball up but made some great pitches down. He won't get his closer role back and the Fenway fans have a mob-like hatred going for him. He is in a hard spot right now to work his way back and in Boston his failures are really magnified.

I believe the Sox would love to move him, but his salary is about $7 million. They are going to have to eat that salary in order to move him. If that is an option, I'd like the Reds to take a chance. With regular work, lower pressure, and a new league, Foulke might be a gamble worth taking.

edabbs44
06-12-2006, 01:38 PM
I agree that perhaps the best avenue to go down might be down on the farm, but sometimes relievers on the major league level just need a change. It's a hard call though, who's burned out and who just needs a change?

I wonder about Keith Foulke. I watched him yesterday versus Texas and he got rocked every time he got the ball up but made some great pitches down. He won't get his closer role back and the Fenway fans have a mob-like hatred going for him. He is in a hard spot right now to work his way back and in Boston his failures are really magnified.

I believe the Sox would love to move him, but his salary is about $7 million. They are going to have to eat that salary in order to move him. If that is an option, I'd like the Reds to take a chance. With regular work, lower pressure, and a new league, Foulke might be a gamble worth taking.
That used to be a good move, but in the days of steroid testing you never know who is in need of an environment change and who has gone of steroids. I'm not accusing Foulke of being one of these guys, but look at the disasters Sosa, Bonds and Giambi have gone through, pretty much taking a year off or just flat out not performing at anything close to a pro level. There is a lot of skepticism regarding people who have gotten real old, real fast and those who all of a sudden don't perform anymore.

Falls City Beer
06-12-2006, 02:01 PM
Anyone that has a 12K/9 ratio and a low ERA in AA needs to come on up. There's an adjustment period i agree, but i'm thinking the adjutment period stats are gonna be something along the lines of a 5.00 ERA -well, that's what we are living with now --might as well bite the bullet and get it over with ....with the hope that they may exceed their expectations.

This is exactly right.

This is precisely the kind of decisiveness this ballclub needs; wringing your hands over whether or not you'll Reith a couple of these arms is silly. Smoke 'em if you got 'em. If you're not a total idiot, finding bullpen arms shouldn't be this challenging.

And there are starters out there--they just need to be found and vigorously pursued. I don't buy for one second that "they're just not out there to be had."

harangatang
06-12-2006, 02:11 PM
I believe the Sox would love to move [Foulke], but his salary is about $7 million. They are going to have to eat that salary in order to move him. If that is an option, I'd like the Reds to take a chance. With regular work, lower pressure, and a new league, Foulke might be a gamble worth taking.You have to remember that there is a new owner in Cincinnati, one that is worried about the Reds winning, not making a quick buck. If Foulke is a realistic option for Krivsky, I don't think that Castellini would mind keeping this team afloat even if it means paying a little $$$. I expect Castellini will keep up his promise and go get the necessary pieces (BULLPEN, maybe a starter) if we are in contention as he said in his opening speech in taking over the ownership.

flyer85
06-12-2006, 02:33 PM
For the Reds to trade for someone it would have to be a player that the current team is undervaluing, hence a suggestion like Wuertz of the Cubs.

Foulke may be grossly overpaid in his current role but the Sox don't care and as long as he is a contributing member of their pen they have no reason to trade him.

Guacarock
06-12-2006, 02:52 PM
For the Reds to trade for someone it would have to be a player that the current team is undervaluing, hence a suggestion like Wuertz of the Cubs.

Foulke may be grossly overpaid in his current role but the Sox don't care and as long as he is a contributing member of their pen they have no reason to trade him.

Wuertz wuerks for me. Also Steel SD's strategy of calling up the kiddie corps from Chattanooga.

Both options make more sense than gambling on another overpaid, over-the-hill trainwreck in the making. We have enough stiffs already in our bullpen. What we could use are some young, resilient, lively arms.

If we're going to go the geezer route, it should be someone like the Pirates' Hernandez, who is still pitching effectively. Otherwise, we're in a pennant race. Wrong time to be running an on-the-job rehab service for banged-up veterans.

flyer85
06-12-2006, 03:01 PM
Wuertz wuerks for me. Also Steel SD's strategy of calling up the kiddie corps from Chattanooga. However, we really have no idea if Wuertz or anyone else is really available in the trade market but we do know the guys at AA can be brought up. And just about everybody is pretty sure the downside would still be better than the likes of Yan/White.

Sea Ray
06-12-2006, 03:54 PM
I understand the "Reith Risk" in promoting these guys from AA but it can be done to help the team this year. The unknown factor can work to our advantage in the short term. The reason is a young guy with good stuff can go around the league once while his head is spinning (Ryan Wagner) as long as he throws a few strikes. If he's walking a ton of guys you send him back and try someone else, but I think the "unknown factor' of bringing up a guy w/o a scouting report can be exploited with what this organization has to work with.

KronoRed
06-12-2006, 04:23 PM
So just keep calling guys up and let them pitch once then call a new one up ;)

Spitball
06-12-2006, 04:50 PM
For the Reds to trade for someone it would have to be a player that the current team is undervaluing, hence a suggestion like Wuertz of the Cubs.

Foulke may be grossly overpaid in his current role but the Sox don't care and as long as he is a contributing member of their pen they have no reason to trade him.

Foulke isn't successfully contributing to the Sox' pen right now. Yesterday, he was booed again unmercifully when he came into the game versus Texas. He has already had screaming matches with fans and punched a dugout phone. Things have grown so bad for him in that town I don't see how he can possibly make it back in such a hostile environment.

The Sox had a similar situation a couple of years ago with Byung-Hyun Kim. The fans booed him roundly, and he had exchanges with the fans. The Sox traded him to Colorado for a mid-level minor league prospect and paid all but $315,000 of the $6 million owed him in salary. Actually, the Sox even agreed to take Charles Johnson off the Rockies hands and then released him immediately.

I believe Foulke will be out of there very shortly. No one will take his salary, so the Sox will have to pay his salary to pitch for someone else. He would be worth the risk in my opinion because he needs to pitch regularly to be effective and that isn't likely to happen in Boston. Maybe they'd even be willing to take White in a trade of unwanted bp'ers. :pray:

flyer85
06-12-2006, 05:11 PM
Foulke is 1st on the Sox in relief innings and is third in WXRL and way ahead of the likes of Seanez and Tavarez. With Timlin on the DL I don't see the Sox trading Foulke whether the fans boo him or not.

BRM
06-12-2006, 05:18 PM
which is not a surprise

Sure it is. I remember being told the bullpen was much improved this year. :)

flyer85
06-12-2006, 05:19 PM
Sure it is. I remember being told the bullpen was much improved this year. :)You should know better than to listen to a poofy haired fancy boy.

BRM
06-12-2006, 05:22 PM
You should know better than to listen to a poofy haired fancy boy.

But he's a hall of famer...

flyer85
06-12-2006, 05:23 PM
But he's a hall of famer...so is "the hedgehog"

KronoRed
06-12-2006, 05:26 PM
But he's a hall of famer...
But he didn't play the game :devil:

flyer85
06-12-2006, 05:28 PM
But he didn't play the game :devil:he's not in for playin' he be in for talkin' about playin'.

Spitball
06-12-2006, 05:57 PM
Foulke is 1st on the Sox in relief innings and is third in WXRL and way ahead of the likes of Seanez and Tavarez. With Timlin on the DL I don't see the Sox trading Foulke whether the fans boo him or not.

This falls into "what have you done lately" department. Foulke's two appearances on June 10 and 11 were his first appearances of the month. Tavarez has been more active since serving his suspension and Seanez has been awful. Timlin will be activated tomorrow. Riske is back and closer in waiting Craig Hansen likely is ready to stick with the team. IMO, Foulke will be moved.

flyer85
06-12-2006, 06:01 PM
Foulke pitched on May 31st then was off for a little over a week. He had pitched very well til the knees started bothering him again. If the Sox don't want him it should be a sure sign they think his usefulness is gone which means he would be unlikely to help anyone else either.

Spitball
06-12-2006, 06:25 PM
Foulke pitched on May 31st then was off for a little over a week. He had pitched very well til the knees started bothering him again.

It has been his back.


If the Sox don't want him it should be a sure sign they think his usefulness is gone which means he would be unlikely to help anyone else either.

Hmmm...such great evaluators-Martinez, Clemens, Arroyo, Moyer, Howry, Suppan, Todd Jones, Tom Gordon...Such a great history in this department. :rolleyes:

Rojo
06-12-2006, 08:43 PM
I say let a thousand flowers bloom - Steve Kelly, Mike Venafro, Mexican Leagues, whoever leads the St.Paul Saints in K/9.

edabbs44
06-12-2006, 11:49 PM
It has been his back.



Hmmm...such great evaluators-Martinez, Clemens, Arroyo, Moyer, Howry, Suppan, Todd Jones, Tom Gordon...Such a great history in this department. :rolleyes:
Come on...let's be honest here. Clemens was pathetic the prior 4 years b/f his departure and found his new "workout". Arroyo was good, but nothing spectacular in Boston. Todd Jones has a 7 era this year. Suppan is nothing spectacular. Pedro, Moyer, Howry and Gordon I will give you, but it's not like they gave up on these guys when they were all stars.

Look at Foulke's stats. I guess he might be good enough to be the new set up man if/when he gets here. :)

Falls City Beer
06-12-2006, 11:50 PM
I say let a thousand flowers bloom - Steve Kelly, Mike Venafro, Mexican Leagues, whoever leads the St.Paul Saints in K/9.

The Little Red Book?

You pinko.

Heath
06-13-2006, 09:20 AM
I say let a thousand flowers bloom - Steve Kelly, Mike Venafro, Mexican Leagues, whoever leads the St.Paul Saints in K/9.

Why not just dig up Phil Norton and Danny Serafini and run them again?

oneupper
06-13-2006, 09:46 AM
The problem with relievers is that one or two bad outings can mess up your record.
Case in point: Chris Hammond, who IMO can be valuable if used correctly.

And "situation runs"' are very important. Giving up a run in a 10-1 rout is of no consequence.
Case in point: Mike Burns gave up 3 in the 15-5 drubbing of the Brewers when the team was up by like 12. No big deal.

That said, you should get rid of whoever is not pitching well and whose record indicates that he never will. Case in point: Rick White.
Since 2000, White hasn't had a decent year. He can barely do a 8-9-1 inning. Cut him as soon as possible.

Then you have the guys who COULD be useful and whose record indicate they COULD be good, but may stink up the joint once in a while. Burns, Germano, Shack...etc. Use with care...but USE. Let them prove they stink before you give up on them. If they don't get innings, it will just get worse.
Coffey was awful in early 2005, but settled down.

Ah...but we're in a Pennant race, right? NOT!!!!
IT'S JUNE!
This ain't no friggin' pennant race!

GAC
06-13-2006, 10:32 AM
I can describe it. A huge pile of......

edabbs44
06-13-2006, 10:37 AM
The problem with relievers is that one or two bad outings can mess up your record.
Case in point: Chris Hammond, who IMO can be valuable if used correctly.

And "situation runs"' are very important. Giving up a run in a 10-1 rout is of no consequence.
Case in point: Mike Burns gave up 3 in the 15-5 drubbing of the Brewers when the team was up by like 12. No big deal.

That said, you should get rid of whoever is not pitching well and whose record indicates that he never will. Case in point: Rick White.
Since 2000, White hasn't had a decent year. He can barely do a 8-9-1 inning. Cut him as soon as possible.

Then you have the guys who COULD be useful and whose record indicate they COULD be good, but may stink up the joint once in a while. Burns, Germano, Shack...etc. Use with care...but USE. Let them prove they stink before you give up on them. If they don't get innings, it will just get worse.
Coffey was awful in early 2005, but settled down.

Ah...but we're in a Pennant race, right? NOT!!!!
IT'S JUNE!
This ain't no friggin' pennant race!
I'm not sure there is a situation where Hammond would ever be used "correctly". His splits are not encouraging, esp when lefties are doing just fine against him. And Burns? Are you kidding? He has failed in every situation this season.

Spitball
06-13-2006, 11:52 AM
Come on...let's be honest here. Clemens was pathetic the prior 4 years b/f his departure and found his new "workout". Arroyo was good, but nothing spectacular in Boston. Todd Jones has a 7 era this year. Suppan is nothing spectacular. Pedro, Moyer, Howry and Gordon I will give you, but it's not like they gave up on these guys when they were all stars.

Look at Foulke's stats. I guess he might be good enough to be the new set up man if/when he gets here. :)

I wasn't really serious, but I was a bit ticked at the way my observations were being dismissed. I realize there is a small chance that Foulke might end up in Cincy, but I do believe he is on his way out of Boston. First, he has been unhappy with the whole situation in that town since last year's struggles prior to surgery. This year's struggles, negative fan reaction, and his public reactions and perceived attitude problems have ruined his relationship with the organization and the city. Couple that with the returns of Timlin and Riske, added to Delcarmen's recent effectiveness, all seem to add up to an unhappy player being moved for the good of all concerned. It might not happen, but the clues are adding up in my opinion.

I saw him pitch Saturday and Sunday against Texas. When he is on, he is a rhythem pitcher who works up with his rising fastball and down with his change. It looked like the change was working, but his fastball was getting hammered by that tough Texas line-up. I think he could be an effective closer again if he can get his rhythem and get off the Boston stage.

KronoRed
06-13-2006, 04:18 PM
Why not just dig up Phil Norton and Danny Serafini and run them again?
That reminds me, lets just start getting guys out of the Mexican leagues, it worked last time :D

Rojo
06-13-2006, 08:42 PM
The Little Red Book?

Better than DanO's binders.

Matt700wlw
06-13-2006, 08:43 PM
I can describe the bullpen, but I might get banned :)

Rojo
06-13-2006, 08:44 PM
That reminds me, lets just start getting guys out of the Mexican leagues, it worked last time :D


K just needs to dust off whatever divining rod he used to find David Ross.

jmcclain19
06-13-2006, 09:18 PM
Not counting tonight's game, here is the breakdown

Reds Starters - 394.0IP, 411H, 182ER, 106BB, 295K, 1.31WHIP, 4.16ERA
Reds Relievers - 178.2IP, 198H, 97ER, 66BB, 125K, 1.48WHIP, 4.89ERA

Take out Todd Coffey's numbers and the bullpen is just plain scary

144.1IP, 166H, 90ER, 55BB, 99K, 1.53WHIP, 5.61ERA

Anyone harboring thoughts of making the postseason, those kind of numbers are a heavy boat anchor to any of those sky high hopes

jmcclain19
06-13-2006, 11:20 PM
Well, post Tuesday's Brewers loss, here are the updated numbers

Starters - 401.0IP, 420H, 186ER, 108BB, 302K, 1.32WHIP, 4.17ERA
Relievers - 180.2IP, 202H, 99ER, 68BB, 128K, 1.49WHIP, 4.93ERA

And the non-Todd Coffey bullpen numbers

146.1IP, 169H, 92ER, 57BB, 102K, 1.54WHIP, 5.66ERA

Going in the wrong direction....

paulrichjr
06-14-2006, 01:08 AM
Latest Gammons article...Info I found interesting on the Reds...We are third in the league with quality starts...Not bad.


http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter#20060612


Quality starts are not the end-all and be-all to evaluate starting pitching, but the White Sox -- with nearly half their payroll tied up in their five-man rotation -- proved last season that the game revolves around quality starting pitching more than anything else. Thanks to the Elias Sports Bureau, here are the quality start leaders through the games of June 11.

Quality Starts
NL AL
Los Angeles 39 Detroit 38
San Diego 35 Chicago 36
Houston 34 Seattle 34
Cincinnati 34 Los Angeles 32
New York 33 Texas 31
Arizona 33 Boston 30
Milwaukee 33 New York 29
St. Louis 33 Oakland 29
Colorado 31 Cleveland 28
Pittsburgh 31 Tampa Bay 26
Washington 31 Baltimore 22
San Francisco 31 Minnesota 22
Florida 30 Toronto 20
Philadelphia 29 Kansas City 14
Chicago 27
Atlanta 26

The QS leaders in each National League division are in first place (Cincinnati and Houston are co-leaders). Why are the Tigers where they are? The AL West is the exception, although it is interesting to see where the Mariners rank; their pitching and the remarkable Ichiro Suzuki have put them right into that sideways race.

Conversely, the Braves' sad plight all comes down to pitching. They are last in the NL in ERA and in quality starts and are trying to get someone to take their closer, Chris Reitsma, off their hands. Hey, every 18 years, these things happen.

Jpup
06-14-2006, 06:33 AM
The QS leaders in each National League division are in first place (Cincinnati and Houston are co-leaders)

WTH, neither team is in first place.

Here's my opinion on the bullpen, it stinks. Krivsky needs to quit sitting on his hands and do something quick. 5 in a row and it will probably only get worse. Arroyo and Harang couldn't get wins so it doesn't look good for the rest of the week. Krivsky, just keeps grabbing guys off the scrap heap. You get what you pay for.

Everyone keeps saying that Castellini will spend the money if the Reds are in contention, at this rate, they will be out of contention, completely, by the All-Star break. No wonder why he said that.

klw
05-08-2007, 05:05 PM
Thought this blast from the past would be an interesting bump-up.