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View Full Version : Whither Larue?/Braves Interested in LaRue [Merged]



Guacarock
06-13-2006, 06:24 AM
Pretty obvious Jason doesn't figure into the Reds' future plans. He's our top-paid catcher, but now the least played of the three catchers on the ML roster.

The Reds have gone from showcasing him to just stashing him away on the shelf. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out where this is headed.

With the team having seemingly made a decision to go with David Ross as their starting catcher moving forward, Larue appears far more likely to be dangled as trade bait than Valentin. It doesn't make a lot of sense to pay $3.9 million for your backup catcher. It's not just a matter of squandering financial resources, but also creating undue and distracting clubhouse tension.

That said, it's not at all surprising that it's taking awhile to work a decent trade involving Larue that might serve the Reds as well as provide Jason with a fair chance to regain his status as a starter. There aren't a lot of teams clamoring for a new starting catcher.

In fact, fewer than five squads might conceivably be in the market. And none of them are screaming and desperate to make an immediate acquisition, so while we might eventually score a deal, it's looking like we might have to make the first overtures, and thus bear the greater risk of getting hosed.

Here are three teams where we might conceivably break some bread and talk turkey, in ways that could be mutually beneficial.

1. Colorado. Their unproven, journeymen catchers have perhaps the most abysmal offensive stats in either league, and that's saying a lot given the advantages that Coors Field provides batters. Larue could change that overnight. From 2003-05, he hit .318 in Coors, with a .500 SLG and .885 OPS. But after Jason's slow start out of the gate in '06, it's highly unlikely the Rockies would send us a player back approaching the caliber of their 1B phenom Ryan Shealy. Would we settle for a lesser return, say an aging rental reliever like LH Ray King or RH Jose Mesa, paired with a minor prospect?

2. Kansas City. They are in overhaul mode. The team has a new GM. With as bad as they've played, the GM has to be thinking about cleaning house and asking questions later. Their catcher, Buck, has regressed this season. He wasn't great shakes to start off. Maybe Larue could be the first veteran cog in a new era in KC. But again, what can they offer us for his services? Would SP Elarton ($4 million salary, 2-year-contract, 1-8 record, 5.24 ERA) be a fair return? How about Elmer Dessens ($1.7 million salary, 2-year-contract, 3.90 ERA in relief)? While I think we could swing a deal with KC involving Larue, do we really want to pursue this route?

3. Philadelphia. Lieberthal is rapidly breaking down, going on his 2nd DL stint this season. Fasano is hardly an adequate replacement. He doesn't come close to matching Liberthal's offense, and he's just as challenged on defense, having surrendered 37 SB last year with Baltimore, while only throwing out 7 baserunners for a pitiful success rate of .159. Not exactly inspiring, but then, Lieberthal gave up 63 SB last year, 74 in '04, 84 in '03. His offense helped compensate for his defensive shortfalls. But if he can't do the dew anymore, why shouldn't Larue, who is more of an offensive sparkplug than Fasano, and far superior to Liberthal as a defender?

A fair return from the Phillies? Perhaps a package anchored by veteran southpaw reliever Rhodes. They have two other lefty relievers, Cormier and Fultz, who boast lower ERAs than the 3.63 Rhodes has posted this season. But Rhodes could still be a valuable asset and acquisition for the Reds' bullpen. His 14 holds leads the NL. And his 20 KOs in 22 IP suggests he can still deliver some smoke, handling setup duties more effectively than Hammond or Mercker. Rhodes' wages? 3.4 million. Right on par with Larue's $3.9 million.

If you ask me, I'd be working the phone with Philly, but also hearing out any offers from Colorado, KC, the LA Angels or any other surprise suitors. I think we can stretch out this Reds catching triumvarate for another couple weeks, maybe a month. Any longer and we're probably looking at diminishing returns, barring a major injury to a catcher on a contending squad.

We can keep holding out for that rainy day. It's more likely to happen than not, given the typical seasonal casualty rate among catchers. But is holding out worth the gain if, over the interim, our bullpen keeps capsizing our playoff chances or our offense sputters, owing to the bench being hamstrung and clubhouse rancor rearing its ugly head?

redsmetz
06-13-2006, 07:09 AM
I think you're absolutely right that LaRue will be the one out - it's playing that way right now. I like your analysis and would concur, based on it, that Philly is our best suitor. I think too, though, that they may be willing to wait to see what develops closer to the trade deadline, although, that might be, as you see too corrosive for the clubhouse.

RedLegSuperStar
06-13-2006, 07:37 AM
Probably so.. But who would sit Ross right now? 2 HR's last night and 11-25 (.440 AVG) with 5 HR's in his last 10 games. Ross is now batting .338

Jpup
06-13-2006, 07:40 AM
Texas would be a good fit for Larue.

Heath
06-13-2006, 09:30 AM
Houston actually might be a good fit - he's much better than Ausmus.

I can't believe that Dave Ross is going to be hitting this well into September. Career Norms and all should get in the way. He's not even Joe Oliver at this point.

dabvu2498
06-13-2006, 09:51 AM
Houston actually might be a good fit - he's much better than Ausmus.

They love Ausmus in H-town. He's excellent defensively and he provides great "leadership qualities." He's an Astro for life.

Heath
06-13-2006, 09:53 AM
They love Ausmus in H-town. He's excellent defensively and he provides great "leadership qualities." He's an Astro for life.

That's what they said about Casey in these parts ;)

dabvu2498
06-13-2006, 09:54 AM
That's what they said about Casey in these parts ;)
They have a real GM and owner, unlike what we USED to have.

BigJohn
06-13-2006, 10:10 AM
Yeah, do you think Dave Williams is available again? I don't get it. If a catcher has to go, it should be Valentin. Trade him and let LaRue be the back up, he is very good defensively and can pinch hit and we get more for our money. We are not going to be able to get much for him tradewise. If we do I will be in awe of our new boys in the front office. They have done pretty good up until now though!

Joseph
06-13-2006, 10:15 AM
LaRue > Ross career wise. Ride Ross while he's hot, then dump him when he cools off.

REDREAD
06-13-2006, 10:21 AM
Let me throw out another team, although we might get hosed: Cleveland. Sure they have Victor Martinez, but he is horrible at stopping the running game. Maybe if Cleveland had LaRue, they could move Martinez to 1b (this is something they were talking about doing at some point anyhow).

As I said on the game thread, they've got to start giving LaRue some playing time, no matter how hot Ross is.

paulrichjr
06-13-2006, 10:41 AM
I was wondering after last nights game (Ross hits 2 home runs) if Krivs knew coming in that Larue wasn't as good a catcher as we need. We all wondered why he made a trade for a thrid catcher after Larue/Valentin had such a good year. Krivs is supposed to be a very good scout and he has watched the Reds alot over the years. Maybe he really thought Larue was not good enough to be the starter. Or did he just get really lucky with Ross?

Heath
06-13-2006, 11:07 AM
Let me throw out another team, although we might get hosed: Cleveland. Sure they have Victor Martinez, but he is horrible at stopping the running game. Maybe if Cleveland had LaRue, they could move Martinez to 1b (this is something they were talking about doing at some point anyhow).

That's not a bad idea, but that makes Ben Broussard expendable, and a LaRue for Broussard straight up deal probably wouldn't work. Travis Hafner can't play the field so the Indians can't play him at 1b. I don't want Casey Blake. The Indians aren't really pitching deep, unless you want Jason Johnson and I don't.

Roy Tucker
06-13-2006, 11:08 AM
I don't think this playing of Ross is the result of a planned replacement of Larue. It's simply Ross got hot and Narron has played the hot hand. It just happened.

I think most of us are surprised Ross has stayed hot for this long. And I think that include Narron and Krivsky.

His extended hot streak is causing Larue to chomp at the bit. He's a warrior, a leader, and is the alpha male of the team. His basic natures screams out for playing. Some guys are OK being on the bench. Larue isn't.

I think Larue is the best catcher the Reds have had since Bench and is still in his prime. I think the Reds would be foolish to trade him. I think Ross will cool down soon and Larue will work his way back into being the starter.

westofyou
06-13-2006, 11:13 AM
I think Larue is the best catcher the Reds have had since Bench and is still in his prime. I think the Reds would be foolish to trade him. I think Ross will cool down soon and Larue will work his way back into being the starter.Yep

Career numbers say that's more likely than David Ross suddenly becoming Mickey Cocharane for a whole season.

dabvu2498
06-13-2006, 11:16 AM
Yep

Career numbers say that's more likely than David Ross suddenly becoming Mickey Cocharane for a whole season.
And at one point LaRue's career numbers looked about like David Ross' do now.

westofyou
06-13-2006, 11:23 AM
And at one point LaRue's career numbers looked about like David Ross' do now.
Except with better secondary skills.

dabvu2498
06-13-2006, 11:28 AM
Except with better secondary skills.
$4 million worth of secondary skills?

westofyou
06-13-2006, 11:40 AM
$4 million worth of secondary skills?
And that's the $64,000 question... it sits right behind the one that is wondering when Ross loses his glass slipper and when and if his coach turns into a pumpkin or not.

Highlifeman21
06-13-2006, 11:58 AM
Pretty obvious Jason doesn't figure into the Reds' future plans. He's our top-paid catcher, but now the least played of the three catchers on the ML roster.

The Reds have gone from showcasing him to just stashing him away on the shelf. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out where this is headed.

With the team having seemingly made a decision to go with David Ross as their starting catcher moving forward, Larue appears far more likely to be dangled as trade bait than Valentin. It doesn't make a lot of sense to pay $3.9 million for your backup catcher. It's not just a matter of squandering financial resources, but also creating undue and distracting clubhouse tension.

That said, it's not at all surprising that it's taking awhile to work a decent trade involving Larue that might serve the Reds as well as provide Jason with a fair chance to regain his status as a starter. There aren't a lot of teams clamoring for a new starting catcher.

In fact, fewer than five squads might conceivably be in the market. And none of them are screaming and desperate to make an immediate acquisition, so while we might eventually score a deal, it's looking like we might have to make the first overtures, and thus bear the greater risk of getting hosed.

Here are three teams where we might conceivably break some bread and talk turkey, in ways that could be mutually beneficial.

1. Colorado. Their unproven, journeymen catchers have perhaps the most abysmal offensive stats in either league, and that's saying a lot given the advantages that Coors Field provides batters. Larue could change that overnight. From 2003-05, he hit .318 in Coors, with a .500 SLG and .885 OPS. But after Jason's slow start out of the gate in '06, it's highly unlikely the Rockies would send us a player back approaching the caliber of their 1B phenom Ryan Shealy. Would we settle for a lesser return, say an aging rental reliever like LH Ray King or RH Jose Mesa, paired with a minor prospect?

2. Kansas City. They are in overhaul mode. The team has a new GM. With as bad as they've played, the GM has to be thinking about cleaning house and asking questions later. Their catcher, Buck, has regressed this season. He wasn't great shakes to start off. Maybe Larue could be the first veteran cog in a new era in KC. But again, what can they offer us for his services? Would SP Elarton ($4 million salary, 2-year-contract, 1-8 record, 5.24 ERA) be a fair return? How about Elmer Dessens ($1.7 million salary, 2-year-contract, 3.90 ERA in relief)? While I think we could swing a deal with KC involving Larue, do we really want to pursue this route?

3. Philadelphia. Lieberthal is rapidly breaking down, going on his 2nd DL stint this season. Fasano is hardly an adequate replacement. He doesn't come close to matching Liberthal's offense, and he's just as challenged on defense, having surrendered 37 SB last year with Baltimore, while only throwing out 7 baserunners for a pitiful success rate of .159. Not exactly inspiring, but then, Lieberthal gave up 63 SB last year, 74 in '04, 84 in '03. His offense helped compensate for his defensive shortfalls. But if he can't do the dew anymore, why shouldn't Larue, who is more of an offensive sparkplug than Fasano, and far superior to Liberthal as a defender?

A fair return from the Phillies? Perhaps a package anchored by veteran southpaw reliever Rhodes. They have two other lefty relievers, Cormier and Fultz, who boast lower ERAs than the 3.63 Rhodes has posted this season. But Rhodes could still be a valuable asset and acquisition for the Reds' bullpen. His 14 holds leads the NL. And his 20 KOs in 22 IP suggests he can still deliver some smoke, handling setup duties more effectively than Hammond or Mercker. Rhodes' wages? 3.4 million. Right on par with Larue's $3.9 million.

If you ask me, I'd be working the phone with Philly, but also hearing out any offers from Colorado, KC, the LA Angels or any other surprise suitors. I think we can stretch out this Reds catching triumvarate for another couple weeks, maybe a month. Any longer and we're probably looking at diminishing returns, barring a major injury to a catcher on a contending squad.

We can keep holding out for that rainy day. It's more likely to happen than not, given the typical seasonal casualty rate among catchers. But is holding out worth the gain if, over the interim, our bullpen keeps capsizing our playoff chances or our offense sputters, owing to the bench being hamstrung and clubhouse rancor rearing its ugly head?


Philly has Fasano and Ruiz. They are also trying to negotiate a bargain extension with Lieberthal. From what I've read in the local Philly media, The Broad Street Bombers are content with their catching situation and don't look at that position as a dire need. 3B however, that's a different story.

I respectfully disagree that Philly is our best suitor for LaRue.

CincyReds2003
06-13-2006, 12:02 PM
http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/0613redsweb.html


There is interest in LaRue, possibly from the Atlanta Braves, who have been sniffing around. While they saw Ross, they also saw LaRue hit a pinch-hit home run.

LaRue's salary is a hindrance toward any deal, and one National League scout said, "The Reds probably would have to pay half of that $5.5 million he makes next year."

Said LaRue, "The team is playing well, and I'm not one to say anything one way or another. I have a record. I know what I can do; they know what I can do. The rest is out of my hands."

Highlifeman21
06-13-2006, 12:03 PM
Let me throw out another team, although we might get hosed: Cleveland. Sure they have Victor Martinez, but he is horrible at stopping the running game. Maybe if Cleveland had LaRue, they could move Martinez to 1b (this is something they were talking about doing at some point anyhow).

As I said on the game thread, they've got to start giving LaRue some playing time, no matter how hot Ross is.


Where does that leave Hafner, Broussard and Perez?

I FULLY agree that LaRue is a vast upgrade to Laker, but I can't imagine they'd want to put Martinez @ DH or 1B when they already have a logjam with Hafner and Broussard there. If anything, I think LaRue is just an upgrade at backup for the Tribe, but LaRue would never start for them, with Martinez being a switch hitter.

smith288
06-13-2006, 12:04 PM
What are Ross' "career norms" when he has been pretty much a backup his career with no constant playing time by comparison to right now.

The guy has only avg 33.8 games a year before this season and his most ABs in one year was 165 in 2004 so I dont think he has really been handed a starting position or any steady playing time.

I dont think Ross is the answer longterm like I dont think LaRue is now but Ross has proven to be a quality bat in our lineup in this time of transition from LaRue to another (who I have no clue).

Guacarock
06-13-2006, 01:23 PM
http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/0613redsweb.html


There is interest in LaRue, possibly from the Atlanta Braves, who have been sniffing around. While they saw Ross, they also saw LaRue hit a pinch-hit home run.

LaRue's salary is a hindrance toward any deal, and one National League scout said, "The Reds probably would have to pay half of that $5.5 million he makes next year."

Said LaRue, "The team is playing well, and I'm not one to say anything one way or another. I have a record. I know what I can do; they know what I can do. The rest is out of my hands."

I wonder if the Braves-Reds are discussing a Reitsma/Larue deal? Atlanta has to have soured on Reitsma as their closer, given his rather bloated (Calling) 9.11 ERA this season. He has looked bad, real bad. .364 BAA. 1.95 WHIP. 7 HR in only 26.2 IP.

But he's only 28 years old. And from 2004-05, he maintained an ERA right around 4.00 with 44 holds over the two years, and 17 saves. Is Reitsma toast or a primetime candidate to rebound with a change of scenery, especially a change back to familiar digs and company?

The Braves are paying him $2.75 million, not so far behind Larue's $3.9 million. I dunno about this one -- just speculating out loud.

CincyReds2003
06-13-2006, 01:27 PM
I wonder if the Braves-Reds are discussing a Reitsma/Larue deal? Atlanta has to have soured on Reitsma as their closer, given his rather bloated (Calling) 9.11 ERA this season. He has looked bad, real bad. .364 BAA. 1.95 WHIP. 7 HR in only 26.2 IP.

But he's only 28 years old. And from 2004-05, he maintained an ERA right around 4.00 with 44 holds over the two years, and 17 saves. Is Reitsma toast or a primetime candidate to rebound with a change of scenery, especially a change back to familiar digs and company?

The Braves are paying him $2.75 million, not so far behind Larue's $3.9 million. I dunno about this one -- just speculating out loud.


I wouldn't be surprised if this deal is proposed. Atlanta has seemed to have lost hope for Reitsma, but Atlanta's pitching staff has declined with Mazzone leaving for Baltimore. I think Reitsma would do much better here and it would be an upgrade from what we already have.

dabvu2498
06-13-2006, 01:30 PM
Would the Braves really want LaRue? McCann (when he returns) will be their guy for many years and even if he's not, they have Jared Saltalamacchia (sp?) waiting at AA.

CincyReds2003
06-13-2006, 01:42 PM
Would the Braves really want LaRue? McCann (when he returns) will be their guy for many years and even if he's not, they have Jared Saltalamacchia (sp?) waiting at AA.


But there must be some concern for McCann with his latest stint on the DL. I don't know if Atlanta forsees more injuries on the horizons, or if they need depth if they're going to make a run. LaRue would get more playing time in Atlanta than he would here, with Valentin and Ross receiving more starts than LaRue has thus far.

pedro
06-13-2006, 01:44 PM
Count me as one who would really rather not have to watch Valentin catch.

Joseph
06-13-2006, 02:02 PM
Count me as one who would really rather not have to watch Valentin catch.

Make room in that boat for me too.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-13-2006, 02:15 PM
Ross career (age 29) :

499 AB
557 PA
28 HR
72 RBI
.236 AVG
.310/.463/.773 (OBP/SLG/OPS)

As far as where LaRue was after 499 AB's (550 PA's), it looks like he accumulated pretty close to those number of AB'/PA's through 2001 (age 27-28).

Through 2001 (age 27/28):

552 AB (53 more AB's)
621 PA (64 more PA's)
20 HR
65 RBI
.232 AVG
.304/.404/.708 (OBP/SLG/OPS)

In essence, it has taken Ross a little over a year longer to accumulate a similar number of AB's/PA's, as Larue was sitting at (552 AB's/ 621 PA's) prior to starting the 2002 season (at age 28), however Ross (with 53 less AB's) has more HR (28-20), RBI (72-65) and is hitting for similar, but higher AVG (.236 to .231), and has a significantly higher OPS (.773 to .708) due in large part to a higher SLG% (.463 to .404).

Ross is exactly 3 years younger (to the day) than LaRue and many years behind, on the arbitration-free agency clock, and obviously much cheaper at 300k vs. 9M (over two years for LaRue). Basically, Ross makes a nickel for every dollar LaRue makes. He may not have the arm or some of LaRue's defensive intangibles, but he sure seems to be doing fine with the bat at a fraction of the cost and so far, it seems he calls a decent game.

TC81190
06-13-2006, 02:20 PM
Ross career (age 29) :

499 AB
557 PA
28 HR
72 RBI
.236 AVG
.310/.463/.773 (OBP/SLG/OPS)

As far as where LaRue was after 499 AB's (550 PA's), it looks like he accumulated pretty close to those number of AB'/PA's through 2001 (age 27-28).

Through 2001 (age 27/28):

552 AB (53 more AB's)
621 PA (64 more PA's)
20 HR
65 RBI
.232 AVG
.304/.404/.708 (OBP/SLG/OPS)

In essence, it has taken Ross a little over a year longer to accumulate a similar number of AB's/PA's, as Larue was sitting at (552 AB's/ 621 PA's) prior to starting the 2002 season (at age 28), however Ross (with 53 less AB's) has more HR (28-20), RBI (72-65) and is hitting for similar, but higher AVG (.236 to .231), and has a significantly higher OPS (.773 to .708) due in large part to a higher SLG% (.463 to .404).

Ross is exactly 3 years younger (to the day) than LaRue and many years behind, on the arbitration-free agency clock, and obviously much cheaper at 300k vs. 9M (over two years for LaRue). Basically, Ross makes a nickel for every dollar LaRue makes. He may not have the arm or some of LaRue's defensive intangibles, but he sure seems to be doing fine with the bat at a fraction of the cost and so far, it seems he calls a decent game.

So what you're saying is, when LaRue got consistent ABs and put up those numbers, David Ross has put up roughly the same numbers with inconsistent ABs?

Gotcha.

No really, I'd trade LaRue in a heartbeat. He is not worth anything close to 4M. And career-norms my ass, David Ross is legit.

pedro
06-13-2006, 02:25 PM
I have little doubt Ross could put up a .750 OPS over a full season which is respectible for a catcher. Too bad that when he does fall back to earth I have a feeling that all the folks singing his praises now while he puts on the Johnny Bench Jr.show will be calling for his head on a platter.

smith288
06-13-2006, 02:31 PM
I have little doubt Ross could put up a .750 OPS over a full season which is respectible for a catcher. Too bad that when he does fall back to earth I have a feeling that all the folks singing his praises now while he puts on the Johnny Bench Jr.show will be calling for his head on a platter.
Perhaps but what we were seeing with LaRue, anything above LaRue's .280 obp is fine with me. (Ross is at .427) ;)

Falls City Beer
06-13-2006, 02:32 PM
And career-norms my ass, David Ross is legit.

Like Javy Valentin, 2005 version?

That sure lasted. ;)

westofyou
06-13-2006, 02:36 PM
And career-norms my ass, David Ross is legit.

Yeah guys never have brief perfromance spikes.

Chris Stynes/Jon Nunnely/Eduardo Perez were once the Reds future.

I know this, I read it in the Enquirer.

smith288
06-13-2006, 02:37 PM
Did anyone happen to see how dejected LaRue was even after hitting his homer? Like, "there, i can still play..." and then went into the clubhouse after high fiving.

Falls City Beer
06-13-2006, 02:38 PM
Did anyone happen to see how dejected LaRue was even after hitting his homer? Like, "there, i can still play..." and then went into the clubhouse after high fiving.

Who cares? How does that affect anything?

smith288
06-13-2006, 02:40 PM
Yeah guys never have brief perfromance spikes.

Chris Stynes/Jon Nunnely/Eduardo Perez were once the Reds future.

I know this, I read it in the Enquirer.
I didnt say that Ross is playing at a norm we havent seen. Im saying that its hard to evaluate a "career norm" when this is the first time he has gotten to play more than his "career norm".

I think it would be unfair to relate his career norms with his current play since his current play is playing more than his career norm. Waiting until the end of the year is probably the best thing we can do with Ross.

Its like saying I have gotten more bad apples from the store than normal ignoring the fact that I have tripled by purchasing of the apples compared to before (this makes total sense in my mind...but who knows)

BuckeyeRedleg
06-13-2006, 02:41 PM
I don't expect Ross to hit like this all year, but with regular AB's (say 450-500) I think 15-25 HR's and a .750 OPS is not out of the question.

At 300K, he is just what this team needs. Unless Javy wants to take a pay-cut from his 1.15 M he's making in 2006 he needs to go as well.

So, if we deal LaRue, that leaves us with Ross and........Miquel Perez/Dane Sardinha.

Uhh, I take that back, maybe we need to hang onto Javy at 1 M per until we see a full season of Ross.

smith288
06-13-2006, 02:42 PM
Who cares? How does that affect anything?
Oh...excuse me...am I supposed to run my posts past you first?

You may ignore my post for others to comment on. Its really 100% within your rights.

Falls City Beer
06-13-2006, 02:44 PM
Oh...excuse me...am I supposed to run my posts past you first?

You may ignore my post for others to comment on. Its really 100% within your rights.

You posted. I responded. It's a message board. Get used to it.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-13-2006, 02:44 PM
Did anyone happen to see how dejected LaRue was even after hitting his homer? Like, "there, i can still play..." and then went into the clubhouse after high fiving.

I did see that. It was strange. I was wondering if he was still irritated for looking foolish on the curveball he missed two pitches earlier.

Falls City Beer
06-13-2006, 02:46 PM
Uhh, I take that back, maybe we need to hang onto Javy at 1 M per until we see a full season of Ross.

They should only move Larue if: a) he brings talent in return and b) his payroll isn't pocketed by ownership.

Worrying about the $2.85 million gap between Javy and Larue reeks of penny wise, pound foolish.

Falls City Beer
06-13-2006, 02:48 PM
I did see that. It was strange. I was wondering if he was still irritated for looking foolish on the curveball he missed two pitches earlier.

It's pretty obvious to me. He's ticked about getting no playing time and the front office's unwillingness to trade him (while his value drops through the floor).

dabvu2498
06-13-2006, 02:50 PM
It's pretty obvious to me. He's ticked about getting no playing time and the front office's unwillingness to trade him (while his value drops through the floor).
So what's you solution, FCB?

smith288
06-13-2006, 02:51 PM
I did see that. It was strange. I was wondering if he was still irritated for looking foolish on the curveball he missed two pitches earlier.
Personaly, I think it would behoove LaRue to smile for the camera and be part of the team. Every little bit helps if he wants traded to a team...

pedro
06-13-2006, 02:52 PM
So what's you solution, FCB?


My solution is to ride out Ross while he is hot and gradually give Larue more playing as Ross cools. Valentin is this years Jacob Cruz. He should never catch except in an emergency.

Falls City Beer
06-13-2006, 02:54 PM
So what's you solution, FCB?

Play Larue in half the games, particularly the ones in hot humid conditions so he can jack a few homers, and trade him somewhere he can start games.

And pray it's not to a team in the NL. Cause he'll pummel the crap out of this sorry excuse for a pitching staff.

Falls City Beer
06-13-2006, 02:58 PM
Personaly, I think it would behoove LaRue to smile for the camera and be part of the team. Every little bit helps if he wants traded to a team...

Teams love to pick up guys who are hungry as hell to the play the game they excel at.

smith288
06-13-2006, 03:04 PM
Teams love to pick up guys who are hungry as hell to the play the game they excel at.
Agreed. Teams also usually dont like isolated brooding millionaires not pleased with his own teams success.

We'll see how it goes. I agree with your solution above. But there is nothing in Ross history that proves what he can do as a full timer. So hopefully when he does come back to earth, it will be like Phillips did...still solid.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-13-2006, 03:29 PM
Worrying about the $2.85 million gap between Javy and Larue reeks of penny wise, pound foolish.

The difference is actually 8 million over two years.

JV = 1.15 M (2006)
JL = 9.10 M (2006-2007)

Personally, I think it's foolish to keep him if someone wants him and his entire salary.

Matt700wlw
06-13-2006, 04:22 PM
Dayton Daily News

There is interest in LaRue, possibly from the Atlanta Braves, who have been sniffing around. While they saw Ross, they also saw LaRue hit a pinch-hit home run.

LaRue's salary is a hindrance toward any deal, and one National League scout said, "The Reds probably would have to pay half of that $5.5 million he makes next year."

Said LaRue, "The team is playing well, and I'm not one to say anything one way or another. I have a record. I know what I can do; they know what I can do. The rest is out of my hands."

BuckeyeRedleg
06-13-2006, 05:10 PM
LaRue's salary is a hindrance toward any deal, and one National League scout said, "The Reds probably would have to pay half of that $5.5 million he makes next year."

This tells me that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to dump 9.1 million into a 32-year old catcher.

I don't know. It just doesn't seem the prudent thing to do when you have a limited budget and already a few albatrosses (Griffey, Milton, Wilson, etc.) eating into said budget.

When a team with a pretty flexible budget that is desperate for a catcher still doesn't want to eat his entire paycheck, you have a problem.

Redsland
06-13-2006, 05:34 PM
LaRue's salary is a hindrance toward any deal, and one National League scout said, "The Reds probably would have to pay half of that $5.5 million he makes next year."
Is $5.5 really such an exorbitant salary for a veteran catcher? I'm asking because I don't know. It "seems" about right.

dabvu2498
06-13-2006, 05:45 PM
Is $5.5 really such an exorbitant salary for a veteran catcher? I'm asking because I don't know. It "seems" about right.
Perhaps, but have his contributions to the team been so vital that they justified the spending of that money?

My thoughts would be, if you can't get an elite offensive catcher (Varitek, Barrett, B. Molina, V. Martinez), go with a cheaper alternative and spend the money elsewhere (bullpen).

Redsland
06-13-2006, 06:03 PM
If the old Jason LaRue shows up (by which I of course mean the younger one), then it's hard to answer the question without knowing how his salary slots up with other catchers.

Historically, Jason has been (and we've debated the heck out of this) a tick below average defensively and two ticks above average offensively. Let's say he's been in the 65-70th percentile of catchers. If his salary is in that same slot, it's all good (assuming, of course, that his production returns).

Now, if what we've seen so far is what we're going to get from this 32-year-old catcher, then we've got problems no matter what we're paying him.

------

One final thought is that fans still talk a lot about salary, but I don't hear the team talking about it anymore since Castellini took over. They've released guys and eaten contracts and signed Dunn long-term and pledged to add talent if the circumstances warrant. I think we've all been conditioned to think about the money first and foremost, but I don't think the new ownership thinks that way. Food for thought/just sayin'.

Jr's Boy
06-13-2006, 06:08 PM
And this guys supposed to be the captain of the team lest we forget.

RedLegSuperStar
06-13-2006, 06:34 PM
And this guys supposed to be the captain of the team lest we forget.

Well there is no said "Captain." Yes he has leadership skills.. but there isn't a captain for this club.

RedLegSuperStar
06-13-2006, 06:41 PM
If the old Jason LaRue shows up (by which I of course mean the younger one), then it's hard to answer the question without knowing how his salary slots up with other catchers.

Historically, Jason has been (and we've debated the heck out of this) a tick below average defensively and two ticks above average offensively.

Actually I think LaRue has been a tick below average offensively and two ticks above average defensively.

As for who would be possibly dealt I got to think it could be any of the 3. You deal Ross because his value is up. You deal Valentin because of his price tag is cheap for his offensive production capability. Or you trade LaRue because he is a consitant hitter at around .250 and is a good defensive catcher. Whatever the cse you go out and do whats best for the team.

fisch11
06-13-2006, 06:50 PM
I think LaRue can be pacakage with some minors for a good bullpen arm. LaRue's value isn't skyrocketing by any means like David Ross' value is. Ross doesn't flash the leather and doesn't have the arm like LaRue, but hits/runs from the plate have a much bigger effect during a season than runs/hits because of defense from your catcher do.

Mario-Rijo
06-13-2006, 07:20 PM
I will only admit one thing, I have not seen enough of Ross' arm to compare. But having seen Larue's arm I can't imagine David's being better. Actually Larue has been better than league average for his position in most offensive categories since about '01-'05. He's always struck out alot thus the mediocre to low average, but I would imagine his HR's, RBI's, SLG % and the like have been at least top ten in the NL and probably top 5. Now his OBP and average is likely lower than that but reasonable. His defense has always been outstanding w/ the exception of passed balls.

But the main point everyone has seemingly missed here is what Jason is not nearly as good at as Ross is, Gamecalling! I believe we have seen all of our starting pitchers improve with the addition of Ross, w/ the possible exception of Harang who he really hasn't worked with much yet. In fact that may have been his 1st game with Aaron the other day, which I suspect Harang will also do fine with David eventually. This is the reason Krivsky added Ross IMHO, you improve your pitching however you can and this is 1 move Krivsky saw that he could instantly improve the staff.

And this is also the reason that Ross was given a chance to start over the past week or so, to see if A.) All our pitchers would benefit with Ross behind the dish so that they could figure on who to deal. And B.) If they started him, would starting everyday for awhile cut his offensive production way down. Or would he actually improve. I think he will improve before he drops off, so I would expect a big increase in his production compared to his career norms.

From everything I have seen from Ross the only thing I would worry about losing with dealing Larue would be gunning guys down at an ALL-STAR rate. Ross IMHO is far more acceptable in many more ways than Jason and what we lose is very little. Add to the fact that if you do deal Ross you better have someone ready real soon in the pipeline because Larue isn't gonna catch forever. Ross has that 3 more years of youth, he is adequate in every way and he is far & away cheaper. Now is the time for Larue to move on, it just is. And Javy is a fine backup catcher and a nice guy to platoon with Ross from time to time. The only other thing I might look at is what Ross' injury history is like, if it's fine then you deal Jason if not then maybe you re-consider but not likely! Oh yeah and Larue will bring a solid return as a solid all round catcher it's just a matter of fit and timing.

redsfanmia
06-13-2006, 08:34 PM
Are the people who say that LaRue is an "outstanding" defensive catcher watching the same LaRue I am? He is an average defensive catcher at best, he throws well but has too many mental lapses behind that plate and is horrible at blocking balls just using his glove instead of using his body. LaRue's caught stealing ratio makes many think that he is a good defensive catcher and honestley he is not.

BigJohn
06-13-2006, 10:31 PM
Valentin is rated higher overall than LaRue

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=tsn-crank032406&prov=tsn&type=lgns

Ron Madden
06-14-2006, 04:02 AM
I love it when the fans of Reds Country hitch their wagons up and expect to ride every hot streak of every new member of the club to the HOF.

Let's not forget this is MLB we are talkin' about. Players do get hot, they also go into slumps. It makes no sense at all to messure a players value while they are in the middle of eighther.

We can never tell exactly how productive any player will be in the future.
But we can come pretty close by looking at his past.

I hope David Ross isn't a flash in the pan. I want to see him do well.

I have seen LaRue do well, Jason will never be compared to Jonny Bench but he has done his job above league average. If you are content judging players by what THE VOICE on the radio tells you I quess that's OK. ;)

pedro
06-14-2006, 04:06 AM
Valentin is rated higher overall than LaRue

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=tsn-crank032406&prov=tsn&type=lgns


I can't say I agree with those rankings in reference to Larue or in general.

REDREAD
06-14-2006, 09:56 AM
Where does that leave Hafner, Broussard and Perez?
.

Broussard would be traded somewhere else or sent to the bench. He's not worth reserving a starting spot for. Hafner becomes the full time DH.

striker42
06-15-2006, 02:34 PM
There is interest in LaRue, possibly from the Atlanta Braves, who have been sniffing around. While they saw Ross, they also saw LaRue hit a pinch-hit home run.

LaRue's salary is a hindrance toward any deal, and one National League scout said, "The Reds probably would have to pay half of that $5.5 million he makes next year."

Said LaRue, "The team is playing well, and I'm not one to say anything one way or another. I have a record. I know what I can do; they know what I can do. The rest is out of my hands."

http://www.daytondailynews.com/search/content/sports/reds/daily/0613redsweb.html

I didn't see this posted on this board so sorry if it is. It's on the other board but I can't post there. I thought I'd give a Braves fan view of this.

The Braves being interested in LaRue makes no sense at all. We have the best catcher in the NL starting and a guy the Braves love as a backup and defensive mentor to McCann in Todd Pratt. LaRue would be an offensive upgrade over Pratt but I doubt the Braves would sacrifice the mentor relationship Pratt and McCann have built. With McCann and Pratt on the big club and Brayan Pena and Salty on the farm there's no need at catcher. I just don't see the Braves wanting LaRue.

That leaves the fact that the Braves have been sniffing around unanswered. The LaRue speculation reminds me of a couple years ago when Griffey said he thought he'd be traded to the Braves by the end of spring training basing this on all the Braves scouts at Reds games. A few days later the Braves traded for Reitsma. I don't know all the situations with the Reds but I could see the Braves being interested in Ryan Freel to play left and leadoff. I could see the Braves being interested in Austin Kearns, a name the Braves always seem to be linked to. Since pitching is a need of both teams I don't see the Braves targeting any Reds pitchers.

Just thought I'd give the Braves perspective on this.

cumberlandreds
06-15-2006, 03:32 PM
I really can't see why the Braves would be interested. McCann is having a very good season and Pratt is a solid backup. LaRue may be third string for the Braves like he is here.

Joseph
06-15-2006, 04:20 PM
I won't go so far as to say McCann is the best catcher in the NL, but he's absolutely the best young catcher in the NL [sorry MattMo, Molina is good too], which might lead one to wonder if perhaps Cox and Co. are concerned about him wearing out over the course of the season or if they fear pitchers will adjust to him and he won't be able to make an adjustment himself so they are looking for a veteran to stabilize things for the season.

Conversely, your other points make just as much sense for both teams. Freel or Kearns to the ATL for pitching is a reasonable assumption to make as it would fill needs for both teams and not hurt either in terms of overall depth. Granted the Braves are hurting in the 'pen just as the Reds are, but I'd suspect a starter could be the target coming back in return.

UNLESS the Reds are looking at Saltamacchia [sp?] coming back to the Reds to shore up our catching for the future. I could see a Freel or Kearns dealt for a top notch catching prospect and RF being turned over to Denorfia if it is Kearns dealt.

Team Clark
06-15-2006, 04:28 PM
2. Kansas City. They are in overhaul mode. The team has a new GM. With as bad as they've played, the GM has to be thinking about cleaning house and asking questions later. Their catcher, Buck, has regressed this season. He wasn't great shakes to start off. Maybe Larue could be the first veteran cog in a new era in KC. But again, what can they offer us for his services? Would SP Elarton ($4 million salary, 2-year-contract, 1-8 record, 5.24 ERA) be a fair return? How about Elmer Dessens ($1.7 million salary, 2-year-contract, 3.90 ERA in relief)? While I think we could swing a deal with KC involving Larue, do we really want to pursue this route?

Buddy Bell is a big LaRue fan. His bullpen coach Fred Kendall loves Jason. Jason was influenced heavily by Fred's teachings in the one season Kendall was in the Reds Organization. Great fit IMO.