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View Full Version : Derek Jeter is overrated. (And why this guy knows nothing about baseball.)



TC81190
06-13-2006, 03:21 PM
So, I'm discussing baseball with this guy the other night. I bring up Derek Jeter. This guy tells me that Jeter is the best player in the game besides Pujols. I scoffed at this and just laughed out loud. I said he's bad on defense. He throws the Gold Glove in my face and tells me that Jeter is so invaluable because of his leadership (:laugh:). I tell him about Raffy Palmeiro's Gold Glove, which he chooses to ignore, and I also say that Rodriguez isn't even the best player on his team, naming A-Rod and Giambi. Apparently, A-Rod is a choker and Giambi is still juicin'. :rolleyes:

Some more fun points he's made:

Griffey is worthless. Of course I tell him that Griffey is OPSing over 900, and he then proceeds to tell me that OPS means nothing and we're paying him yo hit 50 HRs. Then goes on to say that you can find players as good as Griffey for much less money.

Adam Dunn is Dave Kingman. He scoffed when I lol'd and told him the 80-90 point OBP difference throughout their careers.




This is why I usually don't discuss baseball with people (namely other people who tried to tell me that Juan Encarnacion was much better than Edwin. :laugh: ).

princeton
06-13-2006, 03:37 PM
I don't think that Jeter is overrated, and therefore I know nothing about baseball

KronoRed
06-13-2006, 03:39 PM
So you're friends with BF? ;)

Team Clark
06-13-2006, 04:15 PM
It's hard to say Jeter is overrated. Very hard. He is very good on defense and his 2,000 plus hits are a feather in his cap. He also helped the Yanks to a few titles before Nim Rod or Giambi showed up. I'll take Jeter every day of the week. Raffy Palmeiro's GG has nothing to do with Jeter's GG. Larkin finally got his due after Smith fell off the wagon.

edabbs44
06-13-2006, 04:17 PM
Jeter is very good, but he is treated like the best player ever out here and, therefore, is overrated.

Team Clark
06-13-2006, 04:43 PM
Jeter is very good, but he is treated like the best player ever out here and, therefore, is overrated.


I will agree with the treatment. Paul O'Neill rcv'd the same type of treatment. He was a very good ballplayer but he didn't walk on water. Seems to me that when the chips are down, there is Jeter pulling his team through. They do play in NY...

Puffy
06-13-2006, 04:59 PM
Jeter is not overrated. There are very few people who I would take to start a team over Jeter. Very few.

Johnny Footstool
06-13-2006, 05:00 PM
Jeter is a great offensive shortstop with fantastic instincts for the game. He is also a pretty bad defender who occasionally makes spectacular, heads-up plays.

He plays in NY, so he is practically canonized.

westofyou
06-13-2006, 05:04 PM
Phil Rizzuto was overrated, Derek Jeter is great player playing in the biggest market in America. He's not Honus Wagner, but he's sure not Phil Rizzuto either.

MWM
06-13-2006, 05:05 PM
I used to think Jeter was WAY over-rated. I don't think that anymore. yeah, he's not as great as some make him out to be, but he's one of the best players of this generation.

Puffy
06-13-2006, 05:08 PM
Jeter is a great offensive shortstop with fantastic instincts for the game. He is also a pretty bad defender who occasionally makes spectacular, heads-up plays.

He plays in NY, so he is practically canonized.

First, let me just say I still love you Johnny Cakes!

Second, I wouldn't say Jeter is a bad defender. He makes all the plays he is supposed to. He doesn't have the great range of an Ozzie Smith. As a matter of fact he probably has below average range, which is where the "bad defender" rap comes from. The thing about Jeter is he makes those spectacular plays at the most beneficial moments time and time again. He has an inate ability to raise his game in big moments. And he is smart.

Boy, too bad the Reds never had a shot to draft him :bang: :bang: :bang:

M2
06-13-2006, 05:18 PM
yeah, he's not as great as some make him out to be, but he's one of the best players of this generation.

That pretty much sums it up. He's also going to wind up one of the top 10 shortstops ever to play the game. Kind of hard to overrate that.

KronoRed
06-13-2006, 05:19 PM
Boy, too bad the Reds never had a shot to draft him :bang: :bang: :bang:
Chad Mottola was 5 tool talent.

edabbs44
06-13-2006, 05:24 PM
Jeter is not overrated. There are very few people who I would take to start a team over Jeter. Very few.
That's a tough statement, b/c Jeter is a great complementary player. Look at the teams he has played with. Lots of pitching, lots of hitting. But to start a team, Jeter wouldn't be up there for me. I would have to know what the rest of my team looks like. He's been playing on the highest payroll for most of his career. I'd like to see him on a mid market team. Sure he has performed, but since it is in NY it is magnified 100 times. Put him in Milwaukee and he's a very good player. In NY he is the greatest.

TRF
06-13-2006, 05:32 PM
Jeter and FeLo have very similar counting stats this year, though FeLo's have come in about 35 more AB's. despite that, I think they are very similar players. Last year FeLo beat him in nearly every offensive statistical category except BA and OBP. But beat is a strong word. edged would be better. Their OPS were nearly identical, a single point being the difference.

I don't know how you quantify overrated, but if I say I want FeLo on the Reds, I'd be a hypocrite if I said I didn't want Jeter.

vaticanplum
06-13-2006, 05:36 PM
Put him in Milwaukee and he's a very good player. In NY he is the greatest.

Oh Lord, I promised myself I wouldn't get involved with this again, but I need to say again: the whole point is that Derek Jeter has never been in Milwaukee. The team helped make him great, and he also helped make the team great. Unless we find an interfering time machine, we'll never know where one of these stops and the other begins.

People use this argument a lot with Jeter: "Put him anywhere else and he's average." There's no way to know that. Had he been in Milwaukee, it may have changed the whole structure of the team simply by virtue of logistics, and that team might have had the great late-90s run, and we might all be sitting here saying, "Shame that New York team hasn't managed to put anything together the last 20 years." I'm exaggerating for the sake of argument, but you get my point. His profile isn't magnified and his achievements exaggerated because he plays for the Yankees. His profile is magnified and his achievements exaggerated because he plays for the Yankees, a team that has managed to have an unprecedented run of success with him as a key contributing member. He's the only guy on the team who was on all four of those championship-winning teams and is still a full-time member of the Yankees.

Jeter was a solid, contributing team player very young and very consistently. Does he get more attention because he plays on a high-profile, successful team? Yes. Is he a big reason why that team is a high-profile and successful one? Yes. It's cyclical.

By the way, to respond to the original post, this guy is a freaking savant compared to some of the baseball geniuses I run into regularly in Chicago.

pedro
06-13-2006, 05:38 PM
Put him somewhere else and he's still going to get 3000-3500 hits.

If that's average I want me some of that.

westofyou
06-13-2006, 05:40 PM
Vs his SS peers he looks pretty good




RUNS CREATED/GAME DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE AB
1 Honus Wagner 4.11 8.19 4.08 8277
2 Arky Vaughan 3.83 7.92 4.10 5878
3 Alex Rodriguez 3.58 8.23 4.65 4989
4 Nomar Garciaparra 2.88 7.55 4.67 4133
5 Ernie Banks 2.52 6.77 4.25 4670
6 Joe Sewell 2.32 6.50 4.17 4690
7 Barry Larkin 2.28 6.22 3.94 7937
8 Joe Cronin 2.19 6.91 4.72 7119
9 Derek Jeter 2.04 6.73 4.69 6167
10 Vern Stephens 1.73 6.16 4.42 5399

Put him Milwaukee and maybe he's Robin Yount?

wolfboy
06-13-2006, 05:40 PM
That's a tough statement, b/c Jeter is a great complementary player. Look at the teams he has played with. Lots of pitching, lots of hitting. But to start a team, Jeter wouldn't be up there for me. I would have to know what the rest of my team looks like. He's been playing on the highest payroll for most of his career. I'd like to see him on a mid market team. Sure he has performed, but since it is in NY it is magnified 100 times. Put him in Milwaukee and he's a very good player. In NY he is the greatest.

I've never seen a convincing argument that Jeter is a "complimentary" or "role" player. The guy was the key offensive cog in the 1998 and 1999 WS teams. He was as good as it gets in the 2000 WS. His 1999 season was MVP caliber. The 1996-2000 teams didn't feature big offensive talents like A-Rod, Giambi, and Sheffield. I've argued this in several other threads, so I won't add much more than that. The bottom line is that Jeter will be in the HOF if he continues at his current pace (no major injuries). The problem with Jeter is that he is oversaturated, not overrated.

Team Clark
06-13-2006, 05:50 PM
I've never seen a convincing argument that Jeter is a "complimentary" or "role" player. The guy was the key offensive cog in the 1998 and 1999 WS teams. He was as good as it gets in the 2000 WS. His 1999 season was MVP caliber. The 1996-2000 teams didn't feature big offensive talents like A-Rod, Giambi, and Sheffield. I've argued this in several other threads, so I won't add much more than that. The bottom line is that Jeter will be in the HOF if he continues at his current pace (no major injuries). The problem with Jeter is that he is oversaturated, not overrated.


Very well put. Excellent points. As Pedro says, if 3,000+ hits make him average I'll take me some of that. I'll split it in half and get 2 of them.

Outshined_One
06-13-2006, 09:37 PM
Derek Jeter's remaining contract:

2006: $21m
2007: $22m
2008: $22m
2009: $20m
2010: $21m

To those of you who say Jeter is one of the Top 5/Top 10 best players in baseball, would you still take him over those guys, given contract numbers?

Yachtzee
06-13-2006, 09:42 PM
How about Kansas City?

http://www.progressiveboink.com/dugout/archive/dugout4-25-06x1.htm

(Note: this link is okay, but other parts of the site use course language)

Outshined_One
06-13-2006, 10:25 PM
How about Kansas City?

http://www.progressiveboink.com/dugout/archive/dugout4-25-06x1.htm

(Note: this link is okay, but other parts of the site use course language)

THIS JI

JIM THOME!

I absolutely love that site.

KronoRed
06-13-2006, 10:28 PM
Derek Jeter's remaining contract:

2006: $21m
2007: $22m
2008: $22m
2009: $20m
2010: $21m

To those of you who say Jeter is one of the Top 5/Top 10 best players in baseball, would you still take him over those guys, given contract numbers?
No, but then I wouldn't give that kind of cash to anyone other then a 30 game a year winning pitcher.

edabbs44
06-13-2006, 11:09 PM
I've never seen a convincing argument that Jeter is a "complimentary" or "role" player. The guy was the key offensive cog in the 1998 and 1999 WS teams. He was as good as it gets in the 2000 WS. His 1999 season was MVP caliber. The 1996-2000 teams didn't feature big offensive talents like A-Rod, Giambi, and Sheffield. I've argued this in several other threads, so I won't add much more than that. The bottom line is that Jeter will be in the HOF if he continues at his current pace (no major injuries). The problem with Jeter is that he is oversaturated, not overrated.
1998: Tino = .281-28-123
O'Neill = .317-24-116
Bernie = .339-26-97
Jeter = .324-19-84

1999: Bernie = .342-25-115
Jeter = .349-24-102

I wouldn't say he was THE key offensive cog in these years. I know he scored a lot of runs also, but there had to be players to knock him so I'm not including them here. But he is obviously a really good ballplayer and had some really good years and one great year (1999).

2000 WS stats: .409-2-2 with 6 runs scored. Nice series (5 games), but let's not say "good as it gets".

This post is a great example, IMO, of how Jeter is overrated. He was not THE key offensive cog in 98 and 99 and did not have a WS which is "as good as it gets." For whatever reason, Jeter is gold in NY. He was christened when he made it here and he can do no wrong.

The #1 "Why Jeter is So Great" argument in NY is always about his leadership, intangibles, things you cannot measure or see, etc etc etc. If he gets a hit in a key situation, he is clutch. If he makes an out, it was either productive or he made the pitcher work or he cannot come through every time. If the team is losing it's ARod's fault, the pitching's fault, someone else's fault. If they are winning, The Captain is the greatest leader since Swartzkopf. The guy is teflon. And that's the biggest thing. I've never heard anything bad about he guy. He has tons of hits, but he also has tons of ABs b/c he has always hit at the top of a productive lineup. No one ever brings that up. Michael Young has had better seasons than Jeter over the past few years. I never hear him mentioned in the same breath as Jeter.

Now believe me, I would never have a problem with the guy on my team. He is a great #2 hitter. He's a very good overall ballplayer. But let's reserve the great tag for the truly great ones.

vaticanplum
06-14-2006, 12:08 AM
Derek Jeter's remaining contract:

2006: $21m
2007: $22m
2008: $22m
2009: $20m
2010: $21m

To those of you who say Jeter is one of the Top 5/Top 10 best players in baseball, would you still take him over those guys, given contract numbers?

It's relative. The Yankees have a lot of money to spend. They also view Jeter as their pet in terms of payroll, because he's spent his whole career with the team and has been so important to them the ENTIRE time...A-Rod technically makes more in a year, but the Yankees aren't paying all of it. So Jeter makes the most from the Yankees, and given his history with the team, that's as it should be. They happen to be on a higher scale than a lot of teams. Jeter couldn't make that money with the Reds, but if he had had the career he has with them, would he deserve to be the highest-paid Red? No question.

wolfboy
06-14-2006, 12:23 AM
1998: Tino = .281-28-123
O'Neill = .317-24-116
Bernie = .339-26-97
Jeter = .324-19-84

1999: Bernie = .342-25-115
Jeter = .349-24-102

I wouldn't say he was THE key offensive cog in these years. I know he scored a lot of runs also, but there had to be players to knock him so I'm not including them here. But he is obviously a really good ballplayer and had some really good years and one great year (1999).

2000 WS stats: .409-2-2 with 6 runs scored. Nice series (5 games), but let's not say "good as it gets".

This post is a great example, IMO, of how Jeter is overrated. He was not THE key offensive cog in 98 and 99 and did not have a WS which is "as good as it gets." For whatever reason, Jeter is gold in NY. He was christened when he made it here and he can do no wrong.

The #1 "Why Jeter is So Great" argument in NY is always about his leadership, intangibles, things you cannot measure or see, etc etc etc. If he gets a hit in a key situation, he is clutch. If he makes an out, it was either productive or he made the pitcher work or he cannot come through every time. If the team is losing it's ARod's fault, the pitching's fault, someone else's fault. If they are winning, The Captain is the greatest leader since Swartzkopf. The guy is teflon. And that's the biggest thing. I've never heard anything bad about he guy. He has tons of hits, but he also has tons of ABs b/c he has always hit at the top of a productive lineup. No one ever brings that up. Michael Young has had better seasons than Jeter over the past few years. I never hear him mentioned in the same breath as Jeter.

Now believe me, I would never have a problem with the guy on my team. He is a great #2 hitter. He's a very good overall ballplayer. But let's reserve the great tag for the truly great ones.


If he continues at his current rate, he'll finish with over 3,000 hits and a .314 average. If he ends up with those numbers, he will be a 1st ballot HOF. I don't care if he plays in New York, Seattle, or anywhere in between.

'98 was a good season, '99 was a stellar one (and for the record, he was THE key offensive cog that year). He had an OPS of .989. 9.21 RC/27. A-Rod didn't even come close to those numbers that year. In fact, A-Rod has only surpassed that 9.21/27 mark in his career three times. I reference that because he is among the very best ever (not just of this generation). During the '00 WS, he had an OPS of 1.344. It may not be the best of the best, but it was damn good.

None of these numbers indicate "complimentary" or "role" player numbers. Mariano Duncan was a nice "role player". Jeter is miles beyond a Mariano Duncan.

I would spend a little more time with this response, but I've made a case for Jeter several times before, and I don't feel like rehashing my argument in detail. All I can say is do a little compare and contrast. Spend some time on baseball-reference.com and look at his numbers. I understand that you feel he wouldn't have this much respect if he played outside of New York, but ask yourself this: Would you respect him more if he didn't play for the Yankees? He will probably end his career with better numbers than Barry Larkin. Would you call him a HOF if he had this career line for the Reds?

buckeyenut
06-14-2006, 06:07 AM
Jeter's biggest problem is that he gets compared to Nomar, ARod and Larkin (3 of top 7 SS in history of game) and comes in fourth out of four probably if you stack them up. That doesn't mean he was a great player. He has holes in his game. But he is very good and he gives consistent effort day in and day out.

I liken Jeter a lot to Pete Rose. Pete was a very good ballplayer, and he was around a really long time. But that doesn't make him one of the best players in history. It makes him one of the guys who stuck around the longest. I still view Rose as HOF caliber, but he is not one of the top 25 players in the history of the game IMO like many think.

edabbs44
06-14-2006, 06:41 AM
If he continues at his current rate, he'll finish with over 3,000 hits and a .314 average. If he ends up with those numbers, he will be a 1st ballot HOF. I don't care if he plays in New York, Seattle, or anywhere in between.

'98 was a good season, '99 was a stellar one (and for the record, he was THE key offensive cog that year). He had an OPS of .989. 9.21 RC/27. A-Rod didn't even come close to those numbers that year. In fact, A-Rod has only surpassed that 9.21/27 mark in his career three times. I reference that because he is among the very best ever (not just of this generation). During the '00 WS, he had an OPS of 1.344. It may not be the best of the best, but it was damn good.

None of these numbers indicate "complimentary" or "role" player numbers. Mariano Duncan was a nice "role player". Jeter is miles beyond a Mariano Duncan.

I would spend a little more time with this response, but I've made a case for Jeter several times before, and I don't feel like rehashing my argument in detail. All I can say is do a little compare and contrast. Spend some time on baseball-reference.com and look at his numbers. I understand that you feel he wouldn't have this much respect if he played outside of New York, but ask yourself this: Would you respect him more if he didn't play for the Yankees? He will probably end his career with better numbers than Barry Larkin. Would you call him a HOF if he had this career line for the Reds?
I never said he's not a HOFer or that he is a role player. I said he has been a great complementary player b/c people were talking about starting a team with him. Jeter will not carry your team, but if you have good pitching and a few other good hitters, he'll do just fine.

GAC
06-14-2006, 06:50 AM
http://cache.boston.com/images/bostondirtdogs//2004/ar_Jdb.jpg

princeton
06-14-2006, 09:43 AM
I liken Jeter a lot to Pete Rose.

I liken Jeter to Joe DiMaggio

edabbs44
06-14-2006, 10:00 AM
I liken Jeter to Joe DiMaggio
Agreed...both are overrated.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-14-2006, 10:06 AM
GAC. Coffee...all over... monitor...and keyboard.

Thanks.

Puffy
06-14-2006, 10:14 AM
Agreed...both are overrated.

Joe DiMaggio overrated??

Do you know baseball at all - or is this just a Yankee bias?

edabbs44
06-14-2006, 10:54 AM
Joe DiMaggio overrated??

Do you know baseball at all - or is this just a Yankee bias?
When he was billed as "The Greatest Livling Ballplayer" until his death when people like Mays and Aaron are alive, I would call that overrated.

westofyou
06-14-2006, 10:57 AM
When he was billed as "The Greatest Livling Ballplayer" until his death when people like Mays and Aaron are alive, I would call that overrated.
Kinda Like calling Pete the Hit King, just a phrase....because Pete could also be billed as the Out King.

BRM
06-14-2006, 10:58 AM
Kinda Like calling Pete the Hit King, just a phrase....because Pete could also be billed as the Out King.

Is Pete the career Outs leader?

MWM
06-14-2006, 11:01 AM
Top ten career outs leaders:


CAREER

OUTS OUTS
1 Pete Rose 10328
2 Hank Aaron 9136
3 Carl Yastrzemski 9126
4 Cal Ripken 8893
5 Eddie Murray 8570
6 Rickey Henderson 8510
7 Dave Winfield 8422
8 Robin Yount 8415
9 Brooks Robinson 8340
10 Luis Aparicio 8110

westofyou
06-14-2006, 11:08 AM
Is Pete the career Outs leader?
Pete made enough outs by himself to snuff out 2.36 seasons of baseball.

BRM
06-14-2006, 11:19 AM
Wow, he's the leader by a pretty good margin.

TeamBoone
06-14-2006, 11:25 AM
TC81190, I can totally sympathize with you regarding conversations with people who think they know everything there is to know about baseball (and its players) based on elementary observations and because they know the rules of the game.

It's frustrating to say the least. You don't want to come off looking like a know-it-all (not that they'd notice), but you probably do compared to the layman who perceives himself to be the expert. Even when backing up your points with facts/stats, they still can't grasp what your saying because they don't understand... but think they do. So they pooh-pooh what you're saying with stuff that makes sense to the casual observer.

Baseball is so simple, or at least it's perceived that way by most people... in reality, it's soooooo complex that most can't even begin to understand the intricacies.

I go out of my way to avoid baseball discussions with these people... though often, you don't realize the problem until the discussion is already underway.

princeton
06-14-2006, 12:14 PM
TC81190, I can totally sympathize with you regarding conversations with people who think they know everything there is to know about baseball (and its players) based on elementary observations and because they know the rules of the game.

It's frustrating to say the least. You don't want to come off looking like a know-it-all .

these two paragraphs, as well as with the thread starter, are wonderfully amusing

you don't know it all! and I know because I know it all!

(more amusing still is the fact that ol' princeton knows a know-it-all ;) )

15fan
06-14-2006, 12:32 PM
Jeter's like a passive-aggressive silent assassin.

Knock the guy all you want. At the end of the day, though, it's the other guy who's face down in his own blood while Jeter's walking away with another trophy.

KronoRed
06-14-2006, 03:16 PM
Wow, he's the leader by a pretty good margin.
But he hustled ;)

GAC
06-15-2006, 09:08 AM
Pete made enough outs by himself to snuff out 2.36 seasons of baseball.

But where was he in career AB's? Wouldn't that also be a factor?

GAC
06-15-2006, 09:18 AM
Joe DiMaggio overrated??

Do you know baseball at all - or is this just a Yankee bias?

"Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?
Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you"


Some people think he is better remembered for making a great cup of coffee! ;)

westofyou
06-15-2006, 09:31 AM
But where was he in career AB's? Wouldn't that also be a factor?
He's first in those too.. so he's "The At Bat King" too.

Chip R
06-15-2006, 09:38 AM
I think Jeter is a great player. But I think people believe he is overrated because the media builds him up into this godlike figure who can do no wrong on the field. In that sense he is overrated because not even Babe Ruth could live up to that.

princeton
06-15-2006, 09:51 AM
I think Jeter is a great player. But I think people believe he is overrated because the media builds him up into this godlike figure who can do no wrong on the field. In that sense he is overrated because not even Babe Ruth could live up to that.

I've watched a lot of Jeter games and I've seen him do no wrong on the field. While I'm sure that it has happened, I've also been struck by the fact that even at his worst, he's very good. Often he's the best player on the field, and even when he's not, he still does something important. I can't think of many players that never stink. And while I give my son flak for his Yankees fascination, I find that even I can't take my eyes off Jeter.

hitting one's ceiling is pretty hard to do. Hitting one's ceiling in every game, while under a constant NY microscope, amazes me.

Chip R
06-15-2006, 10:09 AM
I've watched a lot of Jeter games and I've seen him do no wrong on the field. While I'm sure that it has happened, I've also been struck by the fact that even at his worst, he's very good. Often he's the best player on the field, and even when he's not, he still does something important. I can't think of many players that never stink. And while I give my son flak for his Yankees fascination, I find that even I can't take my eyes off Jeter.

hitting one's ceiling is pretty hard to do. Hitting one's ceiling in every game, while under a constant NY microscope, amazes me.

You watch him more than I do so I'll defer to your opinion. I don't disagree he's great. But the media makes it like he performs a miracle in the field every day and goes 4-4 with a home run and 5 RBIs. And that's when he's slumping. What I'm saying is that if the uninitiated devotes him or herself to a diet of Yankee games, they are going to come across with the impression that Jeter walks on water. So you can see how people feel he is overrated. Especially those who don't live in New York nor are Yankees fans.

I do agree he gets extra credit for doing it in the fishbowl that is NYC. I am somewhat surprised that if he just goes 1-3 with an RBI and makes an error that he doesn't get criticized for not living up to those expectations.

vaticanplum
06-15-2006, 10:27 AM
I do agree he gets extra credit for doing it in the fishbowl that is NYC. I am somewhat surprised that if he just goes 1-3 with an RBI and makes an error that he doesn't get criticized for not living up to those expectations.

He does. Believe me, I follow the Yankees' press intensely and I know many people who live and die with the team. A lot of it gets buried the the ridiculous "clutchless A-Rod" press, but Jeter's failures, particularly in the postseason, don't go unnoticed. I know a guy who was a manager of a fancy restaurant in New York, and shortly after the 2001 World Series, Jeter came in to eat with a friend, and people were shouting profane insults at him so badly that he sat there in silence and ultimately had to leave the restaurant. Bear in mind that this was 2001, which was the year Jeter had that walk-off homer in Game 4, and September 11 was still burning in everybody's minds and New Yorkers were about as nice and understanding as they'd ever been. But Jeter had a bad series apart from that homer, and the Yankees lost, so it didn't matter. And this is just an isolated incident. Whatever the press may latch onto to fawn over, Yankees fans are extremely tough on their team.

I love the Yankees and I love Derek Jeter, but I'm not blind to his faults. That doesn't mean I think he's overrated either. Nobody is perfect, but for any major shortcomings, any failures in major situations, he has, at times, been as close to perfect as a ballplayer can be, so you'd better believe I'm going to hold that up highly. Even as I shout at him for swinging when he shouldn't or making a boneheaded throw.

I hear people use the argument at lot that Jeter is fawned over the the press. I'm not disagreeing per se, but I'd like to see some actual articles to back this up, because I never do in these arguments. It seems to me that the fawning has dropped significantly in the baseball-centered press since the turn of the century (previous to that, it was very understandable, as he had a great and lengthy postseason run), and that a lot of the "fawning" articles written about him have more to do with his abilities as a role model, not necessarily a baseball player. I think he gets a lot of positive attention, but I also think that if people are inclined to dislike him or believe he's overrated, the few articles that really do fawn over him stick out prominently in people's memories and color their opinions.

GAC
06-15-2006, 10:53 AM
Playin gon a team such as the Yanks sure doesn't hurt helping one's stature and prestige.

But how does he stack up statistically against some other HOF SS's?

Chip R
06-15-2006, 11:20 AM
Playin gon a team such as the Yanks sure doesn't hurt helping one's stature and prestige.

But how does he stack up statistically against some other HOF SS's?

The question should be how do HOF SSs stack up against Jeter. ;)

GAC
06-15-2006, 02:33 PM
The question should be how do HOF SSs stack up against Jeter. ;)

http://www.strangepersons.com/images/content/107776.jpg

edabbs44
06-15-2006, 10:49 PM
He does. Believe me, I follow the Yankees' press intensely and I know many people who live and die with the team. A lot of it gets buried the the ridiculous "clutchless A-Rod" press, but Jeter's failures, particularly in the postseason, don't go unnoticed. I know a guy who was a manager of a fancy restaurant in New York, and shortly after the 2001 World Series, Jeter came in to eat with a friend, and people were shouting profane insults at him so badly that he sat there in silence and ultimately had to leave the restaurant. Bear in mind that this was 2001, which was the year Jeter had that walk-off homer in Game 4, and September 11 was still burning in everybody's minds and New Yorkers were about as nice and understanding as they'd ever been. But Jeter had a bad series apart from that homer, and the Yankees lost, so it didn't matter. And this is just an isolated incident. Whatever the press may latch onto to fawn over, Yankees fans are extremely tough on their team.

I love the Yankees and I love Derek Jeter, but I'm not blind to his faults. That doesn't mean I think he's overrated either. Nobody is perfect, but for any major shortcomings, any failures in major situations, he has, at times, been as close to perfect as a ballplayer can be, so you'd better believe I'm going to hold that up highly. Even as I shout at him for swinging when he shouldn't or making a boneheaded throw.

I hear people use the argument at lot that Jeter is fawned over the the press. I'm not disagreeing per se, but I'd like to see some actual articles to back this up, because I never do in these arguments. It seems to me that the fawning has dropped significantly in the baseball-centered press since the turn of the century (previous to that, it was very understandable, as he had a great and lengthy postseason run), and that a lot of the "fawning" articles written about him have more to do with his abilities as a role model, not necessarily a baseball player. I think he gets a lot of positive attention, but I also think that if people are inclined to dislike him or believe he's overrated, the few articles that really do fawn over him stick out prominently in people's memories and color their opinions.
Here's a great example:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/baseball/mlb/specials/all_star/2004/07/07/jeter.clutch/

Jeter's top 10 clutch moments from a 2004 SI article.

#9: When he was on SNL (what, they couldn't find 10 "clutch" moments?)
#6: When Jeffrey Meier caught his BS homerun
#3: When he hit a leadoff HR against the Mets in the 2000 WS (didn't realize leadoff ABs were classified as clutch.)

Those are 3 reaches. Not to mention when he dove into the stands for TLong's foul ball in the playoffs. Clutch pop up catches? I don't think I have ever heard someone referred to as "clutch" in the field, but DJ has 3 defensive plays being classified as clutch, along with being clutch during an All-Star game.

I am not disputing that this guy has had some memorable moments in his career, but he's had plenty of games on the big stage (i.e., playoff games) to have at least a few.

And even more embarrassing for SI is their opening paragraph in this article.

"Some baseball fans say there is no such thing as a clutch hitter. Have they ever seen Derek Jeter play? The Yankees shortstop once put together a 14-game World Series hitting streak and owns the record for most postseason hits with 123. In honor of Jeter's first election as an All-Star starter at shortstop, SI.com has compiled a list of the top 10 clutch moments in his career. Read our list then see what you had to say."

I mean, the record for most postseason hits is clutch? Does he have the record also for most postseason games? Most postseason ABs? Why aren't these clutch?

Take it for what it is worth, but this is a prime example of the Jeterization of America.

NJReds
06-16-2006, 09:54 AM
Jeter has been getting killed on NY sports talk radio for not standing up for ARod (who has been getting booed by the hometown fans recently).

This is the same Jeter who asked the fans to lay off Giambi last year.

edabbs44
06-16-2006, 09:58 AM
Jeter has been getting killed on NY sports talk radio for not standing up for ARod (who has been getting booed by the hometown fans recently).

This is the same Jeter who asked the fans to lay off Giambi last year.
The Daily News had a good article about this today.

M2
06-16-2006, 10:57 AM
I've watched a lot of Jeter games and I've seen him do no wrong on the field. While I'm sure that it has happened, I've also been struck by the fact that even at his worst, he's very good. Often he's the best player on the field, and even when he's not, he still does something important. I can't think of many players that never stink. And while I give my son flak for his Yankees fascination, I find that even I can't take my eyes off Jeter.

hitting one's ceiling is pretty hard to do. Hitting one's ceiling in every game, while under a constant NY microscope, amazes me.

Great summation of Jeter's game. Few players manage to matter as often as Jeter does.

edabbs44
06-16-2006, 11:11 AM
repeat

edabbs44
06-16-2006, 11:11 AM
And while I give my son flak for his Yankees fascination, I find that even I can't take my eyes off Jeter.

Many 15 year old girls in NJ share your affliction. :laugh: