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traderumor
06-15-2006, 12:10 PM
With the Reds taking the day off, I thought those who do not have other access might appreciate updates on some big NL Central games today.

At 12:35, the Cards square off against the Pirates in the rubber game of the series.

At 2:20, Houston visits Wrigley for a tilt with the Cubs

reds44
06-15-2006, 12:22 PM
Go Bucs and Cubs!

Jpup
06-15-2006, 12:24 PM
Go Bucs and Cubs!

I could never cheer for the scrubs.:thumbdown

I am for the umps.

Joseph
06-15-2006, 12:26 PM
I could never cheer for the scrubs.:thumbdown

I am for the umps.

Go rain? Go lightning? Go [fake] bomb threat to cancel the game?

traderumor
06-15-2006, 12:49 PM
St. Louis wastes no time, Encarnacion singles in Rolen, 1-0 after half an inning.

reds44
06-15-2006, 12:53 PM
Leadoff homer for the Pirates

1-1

traderumor
06-15-2006, 12:56 PM
That was Batista if you're keeping score ;)

BRM
06-15-2006, 12:57 PM
Today is Dusty Baker's birthday. Should we send him something?

reds44
06-15-2006, 01:02 PM
Wilson RBI single

2-1 Pirates

LincolnparkRed
06-15-2006, 01:03 PM
Mulder has struggled this year hasn't he.

traderumor
06-15-2006, 01:12 PM
Today is Dusty Baker's birthday. Should we send him something?
A year's subscription (http://www.firedustybaker.com/nucleus/)

traderumor
06-15-2006, 01:22 PM
Still 2-1, Casey has whiffed in both ABs

NJReds
06-15-2006, 01:31 PM
The Mets put four on the board in the top of the first against the Phillies. They are scalding hot right now.

traderumor
06-15-2006, 01:33 PM
The Mets put four on the board in the top of the first against the Phillies. They are scalding hot right now.Maybe we'll hit them as they are cooling off and we are heating up

traderumor
06-15-2006, 01:54 PM
Taguchi bloops a two out, bases loaded single into right, 3-2 Cards heading to the bottom of four

traderumor
06-15-2006, 01:57 PM
But Jose Castillo leads off the Pirates half with a looooooooong homer off Mulder, 3-3.

traderumor
06-15-2006, 01:58 PM
how about 455 footer, wow, Castillo 9 homers in last 18 games, Cota follows with a single, Mulder just isn't effective today

smith288
06-15-2006, 02:05 PM
But Jose Castillo leads off the Pirates half with a looooooooong homer off Mulder, 3-3.
Rally killing, but whatever.

traderumor
06-15-2006, 02:06 PM
Batista goes 3 for 3, doubles in Cota, Buccos back on top 4-3:clap:

traderumor
06-15-2006, 02:23 PM
A seesaw affair, St. Louis comes back with 2 in the 5th, now lead 5-4 :thumbdown

traderumor
06-15-2006, 02:41 PM
Cardinals tack on a run in the sixth, now lead 6-4.

reds44
06-15-2006, 02:43 PM
Burnitz PH homer

6-5

traderumor
06-15-2006, 02:44 PM
Pittsburgh gets a run back on a Burnitz PH homer off Wainwright, 6-5.

Good ballgame.

LincolnparkRed
06-15-2006, 02:56 PM
Cubs up 2-0 after a pierre bunt steal and Sac fly in the 1st. Then a Jacque Jones homerun in the 2nd

Falls City Beer
06-15-2006, 03:42 PM
I just knew the Astros would climb back in this thing. And this before picking up the best pitcher in baseball in a few days.

I still say the Stros win the division in a walk (provided Pujols misses another 4 weeks; if not, it will come down to the final series in September). I've not strayed from that pre-season prediction.

KronoRed
06-15-2006, 03:50 PM
You think too much FCB ;)

M2
06-15-2006, 03:50 PM
I just knew the Astros would climb back in this thing. And this before picking up the best pitcher in baseball in a few days

Can he hit? Because the Astros can't.

Though Clemens' arrival should spell the end of Taylor Buchholz in the rotation.

Falls City Beer
06-15-2006, 03:51 PM
Can he hit? Because the Astros can't.

Though Clemens' arrival should spell the end of Taylor Buchholz in the rotation.

Offense is the easy thing to acquire.

M2
06-15-2006, 03:53 PM
Offense is the easy thing to acquire.

Then I'll start taking them seriously when they acquire the three bats they need to seriously contend.

Falls City Beer
06-15-2006, 03:56 PM
Then I'll start taking them seriously when they acquire the three bats they need to seriously contend.

I bet they could pry Miggy from Baltimore. And that's sort of like getting three bats in one.

(And they don't need three bats--all they've lost of real substance from last year's lineup is Kent).

vaticanplum
06-15-2006, 03:56 PM
What's the status on Pujols anyway?

I picked the Astros for second place and the wild card, by the way, and I stand by that.

TRF
06-15-2006, 03:57 PM
And how are they going to get it? The Astros cannot mortgage their future for some offense. That pitching staff is getting old, and it's doubtful Clemens does another half season next year. The Astros have 5 starters that MIGHT be bench players for the Reds.

Their pitching isn't so good it can offset this weak lineup.

Falls City Beer
06-15-2006, 03:58 PM
What's the status on Pujols anyway?

I picked the Astros for second place and the wild card, by the way, and I stand by that.

Every year doom is predicted for the Astros. And they seem only to get better with each end times prognostication.

Maybe they're the antichrist.

Falls City Beer
06-15-2006, 03:58 PM
Their pitching isn't so good it can offset this weak lineup.

It has so far.

traderumor
06-15-2006, 04:02 PM
Cards hold on, 6-5 :thumbdown

TRF
06-15-2006, 04:03 PM
2 games over .500 and their opponents have scored 17 more runs than they have.

They are lucky they don't have the Pirates record right now.

traderumor
06-15-2006, 04:08 PM
And Cubs are leading the Astros 2-1.

FCB,

Kent was gone after 2004. The Houston lineup boasts of Berkman and Ensberg. Even the Astrodome models weren't that bereft of offensive talent. Their ability to hang is baffling, but maybe they and the Braves will meet their maker in the same season. At least we can hope.

M2
06-15-2006, 04:09 PM
I bet they could pry Miggy from Baltimore. And that's sort of like getting three bats in one.

(And they don't need three bats--all they've lost of real substance from last year's lineup is Kent).

I bet they can't pry Miggy. They've got exactly one serious prospect in the upper minors, Jason Hirsh, and no depth of any kind in the majors. Plus, Phil Garner loves Adam Everett. He shouldn't, but he does.

Even if that pipe dream came true, the 'Stros would still have the worst hitting OF in creation.

Actually they didn't lose anybody from last year's lineup. Kent left after 2004. Problem is, they really couldn't hit much last year and the team rode a pack of career years from the pitching staff. Now Oswalt can't find his K pitch, Pettitte's out of sorts, the closer is now called Brad (Lit Up) Lidge and guys like Wheeler and Qualls have fallen to earth.

Outshined_One
06-15-2006, 04:19 PM
I bet they can't pry Miggy. They've got exactly one serious prospect in the upper minors, Jason Hirsh, and no depth of any kind in the majors.

Hunter Pence has been murdering the ball down at AA this year...but otherwise, yeah, their upper minor league guys are pretty bad.

M2
06-15-2006, 04:25 PM
Hunter Pence has been murdering the ball down at AA this year...but otherwise, yeah, their upper minor league guys are pretty bad.

Low OB though (.339). Pence has hit well everywhere he's been, but I'm guessing HR totals in the Texas League don't set off the drool response in most baseball execs' brains.

BRM
06-15-2006, 04:37 PM
Plus, Phil Garner loves Adam Everett. He shouldn't, but he does.


Adam Everett's line is flat out brutal. .209/.271/.296 for a .567 OPS. No amount of defense can make up for that. Add in Taveras and his .320 OBP along with Preston Wilson and his .314 OBP and you've got three out machines chewing up lots of at-bats for the 'Stros.

CTA513
06-15-2006, 04:40 PM
Astros are up 3-2 in the 8th

westofyou
06-15-2006, 04:42 PM
Adam Everett's line is flat out brutal. .209/.271/.296 for a .567 OPS. No amount of defense can make up for that. Add in Taveras and his .320 OBP along with Preston Wilson and his .314 OBP and you've got three out machines chewing up lots of at-bats for the 'Stros.
Adam Everett is a 21st century Hal Lanier.

BRM
06-15-2006, 04:44 PM
Adam Everett is a 21st century Hal Lanier.

Hal must have really flashed the leather.

westofyou
06-15-2006, 04:45 PM
Hal must have really flashed the leather.
Plus he was legacy.

BRM
06-15-2006, 04:47 PM
Plus he was legacy.

So what is the excuse for Everett? How does he manage to get regular playing time?

westofyou
06-15-2006, 04:50 PM
So what is the excuse for Everett? How does he manage to get regular playing time?
He plays ball for a guy that started his career in the 70's?

BRM
06-15-2006, 04:50 PM
He plays ball for a guy that started his career in the 70's?

Judy hitting glovemen were the thing back then I suppose.

Outshined_One
06-15-2006, 04:58 PM
Judy hitting glovemen were the thing back then I suppose.

I still can't wrap my head around the fact that Ozzie Smith got into the Hall of Fame...

westofyou
06-15-2006, 05:00 PM
Judy hitting glovemen were the thing back then I suppose.
Turf can do that to ya.

M2
06-15-2006, 05:01 PM
I still can't wrap my head around the fact that Ozzie Smith got into the Hall of Fame...

Possibly the greatest defensive player ever with 2,460 hits. Bill James rates him the 8th best SS in history. Not that hard a selection to understand, IMO.

Cyclone792
06-15-2006, 05:04 PM
I still can't wrap my head around the fact that Ozzie Smith got into the Hall of Fame...

He's likely the best defensive shortstop in the history of the game, and that's got a place in the Hall in my book. Same as Mazeroski being arguably the greatest defensive second baseman ever.

Catchers and center fielders are in the same regard, and if there was an average offensive player that was possibly universally regarded as the greatest defender at either of those positions, I may not have much of a problem with that either. Of course, at those positions the players oftentimes cited as being the best ever defensively (Bench, Mays, Speaker, etc.) were also outstanding offensive players and no-brainers.

Outshined_One
06-15-2006, 07:06 PM
While Smith was really good defensively, offensively he simply was mediocre. His career OPS+ of 87 is worse than David Eckstein (89) for crying out loud.

So I take it you two would also advocate Omar Vizquel making it into the HOF?

M2
06-15-2006, 07:24 PM
While Smith was really good defensively, offensively he simply was mediocre. His career OPS+ of 87 is worse than David Eckstein (89) for crying out loud.

So I take it you two would also advocate Omar Vizquel making it into the HOF?

Ozzie was better in the field (again, he's on the short list for best defensive player ever) and at the plate. Though Vizquel deserves some consideration.

Cyclone792
06-15-2006, 07:28 PM
While Smith was really good defensively, offensively he simply was mediocre. His career OPS+ of 87 is worse than David Eckstein (89) for crying out loud.

So I take it you two would also advocate Omar Vizquel making it into the HOF?

Ozzie Smith has 325 career win shares and a five year peak of 128 win shares. Rizzuto is at 279/131, Sewell 277/131, Bancroft 274/127, Maranville 319/118, Aparicio 293/102, Tinker 258/120 and Travis Jackson 211/111. Even without considering that Ozzie is possibly the greatest defensive player ever - and putting him in the HOF for that reason alone is acceptable to me - he's a better candidate than seven other shortstops already in Cooperstown.

Vizquel's defense has been overrated, IMO, and as a player he's not even close. His career/peak win shares through 2005 was 229/98.

http://web.archive.org/web/20031202021441/www.baseballprimer.com/articles/humphreys_2003-11-19_0.shtml


As indicated in Part II, Omar Vizquel has simply not been any better than an average shortstop. He won his first Gold Glove during his only genuinely good season (1993; DRA +13 runs). That season looked better than it was, because his pitching staff had very low strikeouts, generated a lot of ground balls, and therefore permitted Omar to rack up a huge number of assists. Apparently he is graceful, he avoids making errors, he played on the dominant non-Yankee team of the mid- to late-1990s, and the voters couldn't agree on who else to honor, so they just settled on him. Partly this was due to the fact that nobody was noticeably outstanding at shortstop during the 1990s. I suspect that this was because (i) the availability of zone data on hitters since the late 1980s may have permitted all shortstops to position themselves better, (ii) Bill James and other analysts began to convince at least some people to weed out low-range shortstops, even if they had low error rates, and (iii) teams generally won't put a bad fielder at short (whereas they take risks at third and in the outfield).

Back in January, I did a comprehensive review of the greatest shortstops ever when compiling a post analyzing Barry Larkin's chances at the Hall of Fame and whether or not he deserved to get in. I had Ozzie ranked somewhere in the neighborhood of 15th, and Vizquel didn't even crack the top 30.