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View Full Version : Krivsky's BAD moves



Will M
06-16-2006, 10:48 AM
We all know about Krivsky's good moves: Willy Mo for Arroyo, Hatteberg, Phillips & D Ross. IMO here are some of Krivsk'y bad moves:

1. McCracken should be long gone

2. Denorfia is rotting at AAA

3. Olmedo is showing signs of improvement over 2004/2005 & yet Krivsky trades for Juan Castro

4. He didn't even give Cody Ross a shot at being the 4th outfielder

5. Rick White should be long gone

6. Esteban Yan??? Joe Mays??? Do we have no one at AA/AAA better that this to pitch middle relief?

There is a familiar theme. "young players need to play everyday at AAA". Hogwash. If Denorfia was on the big league club he would have started 1/2 the games by now ( remember Griffey missed ~30 games ).
Olmedo could start for each of the infielders once every ten games & pinchhit or come in for EE for defense late in games. Look around the league & you see young players & hitters getting their feet wet in the bigs as a bench/role player or in middle relief.

5. More controversial: I believe that even though the Reds are close their relief pitching & defense will cause them to fall out of contention. I fear Krivsky will wait until it is too late to make any moves to help the bullpen.

- Will

BigJohn
06-16-2006, 10:50 AM
Team Fielding Stats
Plus/Minus Fielding
UER TE FE SB CS% Pit Fld Tot Grnd Air
ARI 29 16 24 36 33% -2 -19 -21 0 -19
ATL 36 20 24 32 30% -12 7 -5 -13 20
CHN 23 22 17 56 23% 9 25 34 7 18
CIN 37 31 26 22 42% 8 -19 -11 -4 -16
COL 29 14 24 40 26% -10 -11 -21 5 -16
FLA 32 29 19 35 41% 1 -19 -18 -19 0
HOU 20 15 17 39 20% -10 13 3 41 -28
LAN 28 23 28 46 16% 6 -15 -9 -11 -4
MIL 32 33 28 42 24% 1 -25 -24 -14 -11
WAS 30 24 25 52 19% 10 22 32 -1 23
NYN 20 20 23 48 25% 9 26 35 9 16
PHI 29 24 23 39 28% -17 -16 -33 5 -21
PIT 27 21 23 37 39% -15 -32 -47 -14 -18
STL 21 11 27 19 39% -11 45 34 33 12
SD 16 12 17 54 16% 28 18 46 13 5
SF 19 16 13 33 33% 8 39 48 25 15

League 428 331 358 630 28% 2 39 41 63 -24

Heath
06-16-2006, 10:56 AM
We all know about Krivsky's good moves: Willy Mo for Arroyo, Hatteberg, Phillips & D Ross. IMO here are some of Krivsk'y bad moves:

1. McCracken should be long gone

2. Denorfia is rotting at AAA

3. Olmedo is showing signs of improvement over 2004/2005 & yet Krivsky trades for Juan Castro

4. He didn't even give Cody Ross a shot at being the 4th outfielder

5. Rick White should be long gone

6. Esteban Yan??? Joe Mays??? Do we have no one at AA/AAA better that this to pitch middle relief?

There is a familiar theme. "young players need to play everyday at AAA". Hogwash. If Denorfia was on the big league club he would have started 1/2 the games by now ( remember Griffey missed ~30 games ).
Olmedo could start for each of the infielders once every ten games & pinchhit or come in for EE for defense late in games. Look around the league & you see young players & hitters getting their feet wet in the bigs as a bench/role player or in middle relief.

5. More controversial: I believe that even though the Reds are close their relief pitching & defense will cause them to fall out of contention. I fear Krivsky will wait until it is too late to make any moves to help the bullpen.

- Will


Dear Will -

Are we in 2nd place in the Wild Card Lead or 6th Place?

Love,
Wayne

Krusty
06-16-2006, 10:57 AM
You want to have a veteran bench where the players know their roles and are happy with playing once or twice a week.

You have young kids like Denorifa and Olmedo sitting on the bench playing once or twice a week, they will collect more rust and dust that will do them more harm than good. Unless they are playing everyday at the majors, they are better off playing everyday at Triple A till an opening or trade occurs.

redsmetz
06-16-2006, 11:08 AM
I also read somewhere that Krivskey is not keen on moving players directly from AA. I think in the long run, that helps the ballclub in letting players progress at their natural levels.

Likewise, as others have noted, the Reds gain more value from Denorfia playing regularly down in Louisville than being the 4th outfielder up here. He either becomes ready to play regularly in the Big Leagues for us or becomes a necessary chip in a subsequent trade. I think the same is true of Olmedo as well.

Steve4192
06-16-2006, 11:17 AM
the Reds gain more value from Denorfia playing regularly down in Louisville than being the 4th outfielder up here.
It also keeps his arbitration clock from ticking while he sits on the bench.

Steve4192
06-16-2006, 11:18 AM
6. Esteban Yan??? Joe Mays??? Do we have no one at AA/AAA better that this to pitch middle relief?


No.

registerthis
06-16-2006, 11:20 AM
Likewise, as others have noted, the Reds gain more value from Denorfia playing regularly down in Louisville than being the 4th outfielder up here.

How so? Do we think Denorfia has more to learn in Louisville? Is he going to improve? I just don't know if I buy this argument.

GAC
06-16-2006, 11:26 AM
If Denorfia was on the big league club he would have started 1/2 the games by now ( remember Griffey missed ~30 games ).

That would have really pee'd the Freel supporters off, because that means he would have had to sit the bench. ;)



More controversial: I believe that even though the Reds are close their relief pitching & defense will cause them to fall out of contention. I fear Krivsky will wait until it is too late to make any moves to help the bullpen.

- Will

At this stage of the season there really isn't much available (pitching/bullpen-wise) on the ML level that other teams are gonna part with right now. And to EVEN pry a quality middle relief guy away from a team that is already out of contention would cost the Reds something of worth IMO... maybe they could get something solid for Denorfria? ;)

But that's why teams are looking at players that are released, etc., to see what may be salvageable. Picken's are slim right now.


I also read somewhere that Krivskey is not keen on moving players directly from AA. I think in the long run, that helps the ballclub in letting players progress at their natural levels.

And I wholeheartedly agree with that approach.

As far as bringing up kids from AA/AAA to try at middle relief - haven't we already tried that this year with a few guys, and it didn't fair too well?

There is a function/objective of the minor league system, and I don't think panic call-ups, and then throwing them to the wolves to see what some kid can do for us is the right approach at all - to circumvent that process.

I really have no problem with them releasing Q. But the reason they haven't is because they don't want Denorfria riding the bench and not playing on a regular basis. That in itself is rotting. He's a phone call away if/when needed.

But I agree wholeheartedly with the Castro signing. I'm just shaking my head over that one.

RedsManRick
06-16-2006, 11:28 AM
The Twins over the past 6 years have shown a strong aversion to bringing any young guy in the fold until he's essentially forced his way in. Look at how they handled Santana, Liriano, Bartlett (the reason Castro was available), heck -- David Ortiz.

Obviously that wasn't Krivsky at the helm, but I'm guessing there is a similar philosophy. You don't jerk young guys around. You hold them back until they are clearly ready. If they fail, you don't give them a ton of time in the majors to figure it out.

GAC
06-16-2006, 11:31 AM
How so? Do we think Denorfia has more to learn in Louisville? Is he going to improve? I just don't know if I buy this argument.

How is he gonna get playing time with the Reds when playing time is so scarce? Is it gonna help him to sit the bench next to Freel?

Unless the Reds make a move to trade one of their current OFers, then Deno is not gonna get the playing time.

And the only likely candidates would be, IMO, a Kearns or a Freel. Then I'd love to see a Deno in there to see what he could do.

UK Reds Fan
06-16-2006, 11:36 AM
I like Denofia in AAA for some reason. I just feel he is buying a year of development while we have had good health with Griff/Dunn/Kearns.

I just don't get Cody Ross being shipped out while hanging with McCracken. Q looks totally overmatched and produces very few good ABs in a pinch hitting role. Why we didn't hang with Ross is beyond me?

I'll agree on Castro vs. Olmedo. Why not hang onto the extra million and go with Olmedo as defensive sub. I see no real upgrade here and we lose cash in the deal.

I'd really prefer to just give Germano, Dumtrait, AAA guys a shot instead of Yan, White, etc.. So many never gave much faith to Lizard and the guy is our 3rd best starter at this point. I don't see the risk in Germano or the other AAA guys vs. running White/Yan, etc.. out there to only get shelled.

But all in all...these are minor and very inexpensive moves. The big moves have been solid acquisitions and are moving the team in the right direction.

Sea Ray
06-16-2006, 11:38 AM
How so? Do we think Denorfia has more to learn in Louisville? Is he going to improve? I just don't know if I buy this argument.

We already have a 4th outfielder...Freel. The question I guess is do you want Denorfia up here as a 5th outfielder and I say no. He would be rotting doing Q's job.

As for going over the list that started this thread, if those are Krivsky's worst moves then he's doing very well.

RedEye
06-16-2006, 11:42 AM
How so? Do we think Denorfia has more to learn in Louisville? Is he going to improve? I just don't know if I buy this argument.

He's certainly not going to improve sitting on the bench behind Griffey, Dunn, Kearns and Freel.

That was our big problem with WMP: he signed that stupid contract with the Yanks and then we couldn't develop him in the minors. We lost out twice there, I think, because he could have put up monster numbers at AAA and then been traded earlier, precluding the outfield logjam that screwed up Kearns, etc., etc. Instead, WMP had to sit on his butt for two years and "learn" at the major league level, which I think is a myth unless you're talking about learning how to chew gum or tobacco in a cooler way.

Granted, Kriv managed to make good on WMP's value anyway by trading for Arroyo... but we got kind of lucky with that trade IMO, landing a pitcher who basically "figured it out" at the right time. But I don't think Kriv wants to do that again if he can avoid it.

Basically, I think Kriv is much better than DanO at packaging and selling his talent all the way through the system. Denorfia looks better to other teams if he's hitting .350 at AAA than he does if he's hitting .350 in 2 AB's in MLB. Unless he's going to get significant playing time, don't bring him up.

registerthis
06-16-2006, 12:08 PM
How is he gonna get playing time with the Reds when playing time is so scarce? Is it gonna help him to sit the bench next to Freel?

Unless the Reds make a move to trade one of their current OFers, then Deno is not gonna get the playing time.

My point is, I don't think it helps him either way, and given that I would rather have his bat/defense on the bench than McCracken. I don't see how Deno would be "harmed" by being up here. Sure, his playing time would drop significantly, but I don't see how that hurts a player who has developed abotu as much as he is ever going to at AAA. Additionally, the limited time he may get might also help his trade value, should the Reds decide to package him somewhere.

registerthis
06-16-2006, 12:09 PM
He's certainly not going to improve sitting on the bench behind Griffey, Dunn, Kearns and Freel.

But nor will he improve continuing to play in AAA.

Sean_CaseyRules
06-16-2006, 12:12 PM
Dear Will -

Are we in 2nd place in the Wild Card Lead or 6th Place?

Love,
Wayne

:beerme: :beerme:

redsmetz
06-16-2006, 12:27 PM
I'd really prefer to just give Germano, Dumtrait, AAA guys a shot instead of Yan, White, etc.. So many never gave much faith to Lizard and the guy is our 3rd best starter at this point. I don't see the risk in Germano or the other AAA guys vs. running White/Yan, etc.. out there to only get shelled.

But this year, Ramierez put up the numbers at AAA. I think we've really short circuited a number of players' development not moving them step by step through the system. I think Krivsky is making smart moves in bolstering the team's farm system and moving players along as their ability improves.

Who is that always says here "Everybody take a deep breath". This is not a year we expected to compete and we are. It's icing on the cake, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water to make it this year. If we have to sell our future to do that, I choose the patient path.

UK Reds Fan
06-16-2006, 12:47 PM
But are guys like Germano, Dumtrait, etc.. really looked to be a part of the plans for next year and beyond. It would seem to me we are feeling solid with Harang, Arroyo and probably Lizard. Milton for sure is in the rotation for next year. Claussen is a guy that may or may not be a part of plans beyond this year for the Reds.

Besides, I see guys like Wood, Cueto, Ward, Chick, Medlock, Bailey as the real future. Would it really hurt if Germano, Dumtrait, Pelland, etcc out of pen were set back a bit by coming to majors early.

Ltlabner
06-16-2006, 12:52 PM
While he's made some moves that seem questionable (Keeping McCrackin and White at the top of that list) I don't see how anybody could have anything but praise for him at this point. He took over the team just days before spring training and look where we are now. Bringing in Aurroyo, Phillips and Ross are huge moves that will have a long term impact to one degree or another.

We were picked to be battling with Pittsburg as the crappist team in the world and we are in 2nd place, battling for 1st and at the top of the wild card race (or close to it...I've been out of town on business).

While I agree that bringing some of these older players to town is simply a stop-gap measure, I can understand why he's taking a risk on them.

Overall, I don't think anybody can say he's made a glaring blunder thusfar. Maybe a move they don't agree with, but no glaring boo-boo's IMO.

Will M
06-16-2006, 01:31 PM
1. Ltlabner: " While he's made some moves that seem questionable (Keeping McCrackin and White at the top of that list) I don't see how anybody could have anything but praise for him at this point."

I'm not upset with Krivsky. I just think the bench could improve & I think the veteran middle relievers we have are awful.

2. Heath: " Dear Will - Are we in 2nd place in the Wild Card Lead ? "

Yes , but we ain't gonna make the playoffs with Coffey as the ONLY guy we can trust in the 8th & 9th. Some how we have to find at least one more reliever who can get people out.

3. RedEye ( Denorfia ) " He's certainly not going to improve sitting on the bench behind Griffey, Dunn, Kearns and Freel. But nor will he improve continuing to play in AAA. "

I agree. Freel can't play every day so he is our supersub ( 9th man ). He can play OF, 2B & 3B. If Denorfia was the 10th man I would bet he would get a decent amount of playing time & would be valuable to the major league team.
He has no more 'development' to do - he is major league ready.

I could buy the arguement to keep Olmedo in AAA this year but not Denorfia.

4. UK Reds fan: ' I'd really prefer to just give Germano, Dumtrait, AAA guys a shot instead of Yan, White, etc.. So many never gave much faith to Lizard and the guy is our 3rd best starter at this point. I don't see the risk in Germano or the other AAA guys vs. running White/Yan, etc.. out there to only get shelled.'

Amen brother!

5. GAC "At this stage of the season there really isn't much available (pitching/bullpen-wise) on the ML level that other teams are gonna part with right now. And to EVEN pry a quality middle relief guy away from a team that is already out of contention would cost the Reds something of worth IMO... maybe they could get something solid for Denorfria?

But that's why teams are looking at players that are released, etc., to see what may be salvageable. Picken's are slim right now. "

I understand but trying a youngster from AA/AAA seems better than running White out there to get shelled.

- Will

westofyou
06-16-2006, 01:36 PM
There is a familiar theme.Yes fretting about the 10th pitcher and 24th and 25th player is familar RZ theme.

gonelong
06-16-2006, 01:38 PM
Yes fretting about the 10th pitcher and 24th and 25th player is familar RZ theme.

If he is truely the 25th guy, nobody will care much.

If he is a consistent late inning "defensive" replacement or starts getting spot starts then he is well worth grousing about IMO.

GL

CTA513
06-16-2006, 01:45 PM
2. Denorfia is rotting at AAA
4. He didn't even give Cody Ross a shot at being the 4th outfielder



Denorfia has no place to play.
Ross has no place to play.

You could bring Denorfia up, but then he would be rotting away on the bench.
Hes better than McCracken, but the Reds dont want guys like Denorfia and Olmedo rotting away on the bench when they could be playing every day in AAA.

jimbo
06-16-2006, 02:13 PM
I just feel that unless you are a 30+ year old veteran, it is much more beneficial to be playing everyday as opposed to being stuck on the bench demoted to pinch-hitting. I have no doubt that Denorfia is major league ready, but there just is not an acceptable spot for him on this team right now. You bring him up right now and Freel's playing time decreases. I do think something will be done between now and the start of next season. Either he will be traded or one of the current outfielders will be.

I can't criticize Krivsky for any "bad move" right now because I haven't seen him make one bad enough in my eyes that deserves the criticism. Some of us think the Castro deal is a bad move......how many of us thought the Phillips deal was also bad? I'll wait and let it play itself out first.

Handofdeath
06-16-2006, 02:22 PM
We all know about Krivsky's good moves: Willy Mo for Arroyo, Hatteberg, Phillips & D Ross. IMO here are some of Krivsk'y bad moves:

1. McCracken should be long gone

2. Denorfia is rotting at AAA

3. Olmedo is showing signs of improvement over 2004/2005 & yet Krivsky trades for Juan Castro

4. He didn't even give Cody Ross a shot at being the 4th outfielder

5. Rick White should be long gone

6. Esteban Yan??? Joe Mays??? Do we have no one at AA/AAA better that this to pitch middle relief?

There is a familiar theme. "young players need to play everyday at AAA". Hogwash. If Denorfia was on the big league club he would have started 1/2 the games by now ( remember Griffey missed ~30 games ).
Olmedo could start for each of the infielders once every ten games & pinchhit or come in for EE for defense late in games. Look around the league & you see young players & hitters getting their feet wet in the bigs as a bench/role player or in middle relief.

5. More controversial: I believe that even though the Reds are close their relief pitching & defense will cause them to fall out of contention. I fear Krivsky will wait until it is too late to make any moves to help the bullpen.

- Will


Krivsky has been the Asst. Gm on three division winners and four other teams that finished over .500. The Reds are leading in the Wild Card by 2 1/2 games and have a legitimate shot at winning the division when NOBODY including the most diehard Reds fans expected to do better than .500 this season. He traded for a pitcher that is on the short list so far to win the Cy Young. I think the man knows what he's doing

Reds1
06-16-2006, 03:26 PM
How so? Do we think Denorfia has more to learn in Louisville? Is he going to improve? I just don't know if I buy this argument.

I'm under the school of thought that you can always learn. I think it's more about bringing him up to let him sit. Nice to have a player we can have come up if we have an injury or make a trade.

On the other comments I'm not sure Yan and Mays are a bust yet, but I agree Castro not needed and might actually be a worse pick up with his offensive skills, but then again Olmedo did make an error in his SS start. White could be gone as soon as Belise is back and McCrackin is the 25th guy. At least these are smaller moves and the good pick-ups are much better for the team then the downfalls.

I agree that Cody Ross being given away was the worst move he's made, but very classy and maybe created good will to FL and other GMs. Hard to put a value on that, but I like Cody's potential over McCrack.

GAC
06-16-2006, 04:11 PM
My point is, I don't think it helps him either way, and given that I would rather have his bat/defense on the bench than McCracken.

And I tend to agree with you reg. But I think the reason he hasn't already have been noted above.


I don't see how Deno would be "harmed" by being up here.

I don't know if he'd be "harmed"..... I just don't think he would be HELPED by sitting on the bench taking Q's place (basically not playing 99% of the time, except as an occasional PHer).


Additionally, the limited time he may get might also help his trade value, should the Reds decide to package him somewhere.

I don't think that limited time up here would help his trade value at all. It is really hard to step into a PHer role and put up adequate numbers that really reflect the type of everyday player you might be.

Tearing it up at AAA, where team scouts can watch him, does a far better job of helping his trade value (and maybe even exaggerate it to our benefit).

REDREAD
06-16-2006, 04:17 PM
1. McCracken should be long gone

2. Denorfia is rotting at AAA

3. Olmedo is showing signs of improvement over 2004/2005 & yet Krivsky trades for Juan Castro

4. He didn't even give Cody Ross a shot at being the 4th outfielder

5. Rick White should be long gone

6. Esteban Yan??? Joe Mays??? Do we have no one at AA/AAA better that this to pitch middle relief?

There is a familiar theme. "young players need to play everyday at AAA". Hogwash.

5. More controversial: I believe that even though the Reds are close their relief pitching & defense will cause them to fall out of contention. I fear Krivsky will wait until it is too late to make any moves to help the bullpen.

- Will

There is no rush to bring Defonaia up now. Why let him sit on the bench and gain service time as a bench player. McCracken and Castro are placeholders right now. Give Wayne some time. He inherited a team late in the offseason with a lot of holes. As Team Clark said, there's a shortage league-wide of relief pitching and teams are asking a premium for it. Not feasible to trade the farm for a reliever at this point. In the meantime, there's little harm in trying out Yan and Mays to see if they can be fixed (no other viable alternatives).
I can't see getting all worked up over Cody Ross or Olmedo either. Neither is going to be an impact player/building block longterm (I'd say the same for Defornia).

Jpup
06-16-2006, 04:24 PM
Bring back DanO. ;)

KronoRed
06-16-2006, 04:52 PM
You want to have a veteran bench where the players know their roles and are happy with playing once or twice a week.

You have young kids like Denorifa and Olmedo sitting on the bench playing once or twice a week, they will collect more rust and dust that will do them more harm than good. Unless they are playing everyday at the majors, they are better off playing everyday at Triple A till an opening or trade occurs.
Olmedo is always going to be a backup, bringing him up and letting him be one is a great idea, also cheaper then Castro.

Deno has nothing left to prove in AAA.

RedEye
06-16-2006, 05:36 PM
But nor will he improve continuing to play in AAA.

Don't you think he stands a better chance of improving his game (and looking good for trade partners) if he is actually PLAYING baseball? Sitting out our bench does nothing at all except allow him to pinch hit once in awhile... and I think that could lead to a regression for a player who projects as an everyday outfielder.

Doc. Scott
06-16-2006, 05:56 PM
I'm sorry, but I can't impugn a costs-next-to-nothing move like Joe Mays until Mays actually starts pitching poorly (again).

Pardon the sunshine pump here, but I think the way the Reds are using Mays (low-leverage relief innings, keeping NL clubs unfamiliar with him from seeing too much) might actually turn out reasonably well.

redsmetz
06-16-2006, 06:01 PM
Don't you think he stands a better chance of improving his game (and looking good for trade partners) if he is actually PLAYING baseball? Sitting out our bench does nothing at all except allow him to pinch hit once in awhile... and I think that could lead to a regression for a player who projects as an everyday outfielder.

I think this is a very accurate assessment and its why i think Denorfia holds more value as a chip in a trade (or subsequently as a Reds player following a trade) by playing and excelling everyday rather than rusting on a bench.

pedro
06-16-2006, 06:04 PM
Don't you think he stands a better chance of improving his game (and looking good for trade partners) if he is actually PLAYING baseball? Sitting out our bench does nothing at all except allow him to pinch hit once in awhile... and I think that could lead to a regression for a player who projects as an everyday outfielder.

I agree with this as well.

Heath
06-16-2006, 06:09 PM
Krivsky has been the Asst. Gm on three division winners and four other teams that finished over .500. The Reds are leading in the Wild Card by 2 1/2 games and have a legitimate shot at winning the division when NOBODY including the most diehard Reds fans expected to do better than .500 this season. He traded for a pitcher that is on the short list so far to win the Cy Young. I think the man knows what he's doing

To quote Verne Lundquist on Jack Nicklaus' putt at 17 to put him in the lead in 1986 Masters -

"Yessir!"

On top of that, he's getting rid of people who aren't producing. Beats bringing up Jason Standridge and Jason Romano every other week.

Denorf's gonna get his time. Castro will be nice to slide to SS in the late innings/defensive replacement/double switch/get-a-way day SS/3B starter.

So far so good in my book. I don't think he's oblivious to the fact of a 6+ Bullpen ERA.

Heath
06-16-2006, 06:19 PM
1. Ltlabner: " While he's made some moves that seem questionable (Keeping McCrackin and White at the top of that list) I don't see how anybody could have anything but praise for him at this point."

I'm not upset with Krivsky. I just think the bench could improve & I think the veteran middle relievers we have are awful.

2. Heath: " Dear Will - Are we in 2nd place in the Wild Card Lead ? "

Yes , but we ain't gonna make the playoffs with Coffey as the ONLY guy we can trust in the 8th & 9th. Some how we have to find at least one more reliever who can get people out.

3. RedEye ( Denorfia ) " He's certainly not going to improve sitting on the bench behind Griffey, Dunn, Kearns and Freel. But nor will he improve continuing to play in AAA. "

I agree. Freel can't play every day so he is our supersub ( 9th man ). He can play OF, 2B & 3B. If Denorfia was the 10th man I would bet he would get a decent amount of playing time & would be valuable to the major league team.
He has no more 'development' to do - he is major league ready.

I could buy the arguement to keep Olmedo in AAA this year but not Denorfia.

4. UK Reds fan: ' I'd really prefer to just give Germano, Dumtrait, AAA guys a shot instead of Yan, White, etc.. So many never gave much faith to Lizard and the guy is our 3rd best starter at this point. I don't see the risk in Germano or the other AAA guys vs. running White/Yan, etc.. out there to only get shelled.'

Amen brother!

5. GAC "At this stage of the season there really isn't much available (pitching/bullpen-wise) on the ML level that other teams are gonna part with right now. And to EVEN pry a quality middle relief guy away from a team that is already out of contention would cost the Reds something of worth IMO... maybe they could get something solid for Denorfria?

But that's why teams are looking at players that are released, etc., to see what may be salvageable. Picken's are slim right now. "

I understand but trying a youngster from AA/AAA seems better than running White out there to get shelled.

- Will

1 - Where are these people that you think can improve the bench? What about the Relief pitchers you want? You can't exactly buy them at Kroger or in bulk at Costco. Sure, White and McCracken are deadweights and Mercker can't get his own grandmother out, but where are the other options?

2 - Hey, that's my quote, well sort of. As far as I can see, the Reds are in 2nd place in JUNE in the NL Central with a team that most people picked to finish SIXTH. Enjoy the ride.

3 - I agree Chris Denorfia is major league ready. I also think he can't beat out Dunn, Kearns, or Griffey. Denorfia would get 1-2 starts a week, tops. Not good for a potential. Brian Giles sat in AAA for a while as well before the Pirates stole him. The difference is I don't think Deno's gonna have to wait that long.

4/5 - The difference between a Rookie and a Veteran getting shelled is that the Veteran knows how to react after getting shelled. It could really hurt a kid like Shafer or Germano who could end up being "Reith-ed".

Will, dude, if I were you, I'd take a deep breath and exhale. Baseball's a long season. That's why there's an All-Star game.

WVRedsFan
06-16-2006, 06:28 PM
1. McCracken should be long gone

2. Denorfia is rotting at AAA

3. Olmedo is showing signs of improvement over 2004/2005 & yet Krivsky trades for Juan Castro

4. He didn't even give Cody Ross a shot at being the 4th outfielder

5. Rick White should be long gone

6. Esteban Yan??? Joe Mays??? Do we have no one at AA/AAA better that this to pitch middle relief?

5. More controversial: I believe that even though the Reds are close their relief pitching & defense will cause them to fall out of contention. I fear Krivsky will wait until it is too late to make any moves to help the bullpen.

- Will

1. Whoever replaces McC will be doing what Q is doing --riding the bench. Why take a veteran to do this?

2. If Chris Denorfia is as talented as we think he is, he needs to be playing. Sure, he would have played some in Griffey's absence, but my bet is that he would have played behind Freel. When/if we move an outfielder you'll see him move up with the big club--not before.

3. Krivsky seems to be a pretty good judge of talent (witness Phillips, Arroyo, and Ross), so how do you figure that he is mis-firing on Olmedo. In fact, I think that most of our minor league system is not held in high regard by the new regime. My guess is that they are right.

4. I don't blame him.

5. Agreed, but who do we put in his place?

6. Probably not--not one that's ready anyhow. I've seen these minor league pitchers come up to the majors and get bombed worse than the veterans. Maybe that's the reason.

5. (?) Like someone else said, there's not much out there to get. I've been watching a lot of baseball recently and every team (with a few exceptions) have a bullpen that can explode at any moment. The MLB is pitching poor right now. And the deals that might bring you someone good takes too much. I have faith that Mr. K will make the right moves even if, short term, it looks like he's asleep at the switch.

dfs
06-16-2006, 09:16 PM
In order....

1. McCracken should be long gone....Is that Krivsky's call or Narron's? I honestly don't know. My belief is that managers should and usually do have the call about the final makeup of their roster and if Narron wants McCracken on the roster....well Ok.

2. Denorfia is rotting at AAA...Denorfia is the obvious replacement for McCracken. I'm not sure that Denorfia can cover center in the big leagues, but he certainly has nothing to prove at AAA. If the reds are serious about keeping Junior, I have to think Denorfia should be traded for value soon.

3. Olmedo is showing signs of improvement over 2004/2005 & yet Krivsky trades for Juan Castro ...I surely scratch my head about that one.

4. He didn't even give Cody Ross a shot at being the 4th outfielder....If there wasn't room for Denorfia on the roster, Cody Ross certainly shouldn't have had a clear shot at a job either.

5. Rick White should be long gone. The reds simply don't have anybody in AAA that they can replace White with. The reds have been in the habit of promoting guys too quickly out of desperation. Those guys quickly run out of options and end up clogging up the 25 man roster and need to be dumped or released. That's what happened to Ryan Wagner and others. (Travis Chick is probably the only one currently on this path) I HOPE we've seen the end of that.

6. Esteban Yan??? Joe Mays??? Do we have no one at AA/AAA better that this to pitch middle relief?....No. No we really don't The obvious candidate would be Josh Hancock, but he's pitching for the Cardinals. Again, I'm not Sure whose choice that was. It seemed to be Narrons, so it's kind of tough to blame Krivsky for that.

jimbo
06-16-2006, 09:35 PM
2. Denorfia is rotting at AAA...Denorfia is the obvious replacement for McCracken. I'm not sure that Denorfia can cover center in the big leagues, but he certainly has nothing to prove at AAA. If the reds are serious about keeping Junior, I have to think Denorfia should be traded for value soon.

4. He didn't even give Cody Ross a shot at being the 4th outfielder....If there wasn't room for Denorfia on the roster, Cody Ross certainly shouldn't have had a clear shot at a job either.


I'm not sure how it can be said that Denorfia is "rotting in AAA." He is playing everyday.....which is better than rotting on the bench. Nobody is disputing the fact that he has nothing left to prove at AAA, the question is whether it is better for him to play everyday in Louisville or be demoted to a pinch-hitter with the Reds. I, for one, think it's better for him to be playing.

If Cody Ross was given the 4th outfielder spot, Reds fans would have had a cow because Freel's playing time would have seriously decreased. There was not enough room on this team for both of them.

alloverjr
06-17-2006, 12:10 AM
I agree with most of the original post. I don't think any of the potential organizational call-ups mentioned involve grade A prospects. IMO, you are sacrificing this year for some later date. All fine for me, but I don't see the need to give up outs every time a Q or Castro has to come to the plate when there are better options. Many concede that the roster is sprinkled, if not littered, with useless parts. If you really want to contend for a playoff spot you're going to need these bottom of the roster players to contribute at least occaissionally. With who they currently have, don't see it.

GridironGrace
06-17-2006, 12:14 AM
I dont agree with you on Denorfia

For one.. he WOULDNT play that much for us right now.... If an OF takes a day off Freel starts... He's been called up here and there for a few MLB AB's and thats how it should be.

If he continues to improve and do well that'll open up options for a Trade deal down the road knowing we can pull him up and have a decent OF still even if Kearns/Griffey/Freel get delt...which i doubt but anyways..

other then that i pretty much agree with the rest.

alloverjr
06-17-2006, 12:16 AM
There is no rush to bring Defonaia up now. Why let him sit on the bench and gain service time as a bench player. McCracken and Castro are placeholders right now. Give Wayne some time. He inherited a team late in the offseason with a lot of holes. As Team Clark said, there's a shortage league-wide of relief pitching and teams are asking a premium for it. Not feasible to trade the farm for a reliever at this point. In the meantime, there's little harm in trying out Yan and Mays to see if they can be fixed (no other viable alternatives).
I can't see getting all worked up over Cody Ross or Olmedo either. Neither is going to be an impact player/building block longterm (I'd say the same for Defornia).

If Denorfia's not in your long term plans, what's the use in keeping him at AAA and not "rushing" him? Other teams already know what he can do down there.

No one ever comes to Reds - in recent years anyway - and gets "fixed". I'd wager even the mighty Duncan couldn't fix those two guys. If your plan is to contend this year, than I'd say yes, there is a lot of harm in carrying those arms, especially in light of the rest of the bullpenners.

Will M
06-17-2006, 10:09 AM
" I agree with most of the original post. I don't think any of the potential organizational call-ups mentioned involve grade A prospects. IMO, you are sacrificing this year for some later date. All fine for me, but I don't see the need to give up outs every time a Q or Castro has to come to the plate when there are better options. Many concede that the roster is sprinkled, if not littered, with useless parts. If you really want to contend for a playoff spot you're going to need these bottom of the roster players to contribute at least occaissionally. With who they currently have, don't see it. "

I don't want to sacrifice the future to content this year.
By that I mean trading an A prospect ( Bruce , Bailey ) for a middle reliever.
I think it is crucial for a small market team to have a good farm system & a steady stream of cheap talent coming into the big league team.
However I have no problem trading B prospects for someone who can help the team now.

I agree with you - over a 162 game season the last 2-3 guys on the bench & the last 2-3 guys in the pen WILL cost us games.

- Will

GAC
06-17-2006, 02:02 PM
If Denorfia's not in your long term plans, what's the use in keeping him at AAA and not "rushing" him? Other teams already know what he can do down there.

How about holding him in the "bank" so to speak, while he continues to showcase his skills, which potential trade partners can see and possibly desire the more they see.

He's not gonna get that on the ML roster sitting the bench.

Heath
06-17-2006, 02:37 PM
Dream sequence for me would have at the end of the year, Dunn to 1st, Junior to Left and Denorfia to center and LaRue traded for servicable middle relief.

Dream sequences only work in soap operas. Just ask Pamela Ewing.

GAC
06-17-2006, 06:56 PM
Dream sequence for me would have at the end of the year, Dunn to 1st, Junior to Left and Denorfia to center and LaRue traded for servicable middle relief.

Dream sequences only work in soap operas. Just ask Pamela Ewing.

When you wake up Heath.... who do you find in the shower? Dunn, Jr, or Deno? :lol:

KronoRed
06-17-2006, 08:43 PM
Dream sequence for me would have at the end of the year, Dunn to 1st, Junior to Left and Denorfia to center and LaRue traded for servicable middle relief.

Dream sequences only work in soap operas. Just ask Pamela Ewing.
Wow...I had the same dream.

then Krivsky/Narron ruined it ;)