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redsmetz
06-16-2006, 12:40 PM
Okay, while we've all been hyperventilating over Castro invading Cincinnati (it's just Juan, folks - not Fidel! :) ), I got to think about the all-time best Hispanic players for the Reds. Given our rich history with Latin American players, I thought this task would be easy, but we've got loads of gaps.

What I'm going to put forward is clearly incomplete and I'm drawing blanks on many past players. Most surprising has been the dirth of Latin outfielders for the Reds. I've taken players born in Latin American countries. For manager, I chose American born Lou Pinella given his success instead of Cuban born Tony Perez, who never had a chance managing here. I have also left out the current players because I think they're still establishing themselves.

1B Tony Perez
2B Mariano Duncan
3B Chico Ruiz *
SS Dave Concepcion
C Bo Diaz

OF Cesar Geranimo
OF Cesar Cedeno
OF **

P Mario Soto
P Jose Rijo
P Dolf Luque
P Manny Sarmiento
RP Pedro Borbon

Manager Lou Pinella

Third is very weak, as are the outfield slots, plus I need more pitchers.

Your thoughts folks? I know I'm overlooking some players.

* I really wanted to grant Ruiz's wish to bench him, but he played some third and I had no one else that came to mind.

** The outfield slots were fairly hard. I thought about about Juan Encarnacion and Jose Guillen, but they both only played a half season with the Reds.

Strikes Out Looking
06-16-2006, 12:43 PM
OF-Vada Pinson
RP-Pedro Borbon

And here's a question--Concepcion was from South America (Venezuala) does he qualify as Hispanic? I though it was from Central America--if that's the case, Lopez would be ss.

westofyou
06-16-2006, 12:51 PM
OF-Vada Pinson
RP-Pedro Borbon

And here's a question--Concepcion was from South America (Venezuala) does he qualify as Hispanic? I though it was from Central America--if that's the case, Lopez would be ss.
Vada is latin?

No Reds latin team is complete without Armando Marsans and utility IF Rafael Almeida, the orginal latin imports.

jpurdy974
06-16-2006, 12:52 PM
How about Manny Sarmiento? Only with the team from 1976-1979, but did have two years of sub 2.50 E.R.A.

Ltlabner
06-16-2006, 12:54 PM
Would Louis Quonious (sp?) make the team?

dabvu2498
06-16-2006, 12:58 PM
Vada is latin?

I didn't think so either.

Vada Pinson
Vada Edward Pinson Jr.

Bats Left, Throws Left
Height 5' 11", Weight 181 lb.

Debut April 15, 1958
Final Game September 28, 1975
Born August 11, 1938 in Memphis, TN
Died October 21, 1995 in Oakland, CA

Joseph
06-16-2006, 01:00 PM
Cesar Hernandez as an OFer to complete the all Cesar OF.

Kidding.

westofyou
06-16-2006, 01:04 PM
I didn't think so either.

Vada Pinson
Vada Edward Pinson Jr.

Bats Left, Throws Left
Height 5' 11", Weight 181 lb.

Debut April 15, 1958
Final Game September 28, 1975
Born August 11, 1938 in Memphis, TN
Died October 21, 1995 in Oakland, CA
Yeah, Oakland isn't exactly a latin enclave, even today.

BuckWoody
06-16-2006, 01:07 PM
We could always move Doggie to 3B and put Roberto Petagine at first. :D

dabvu2498
06-16-2006, 01:08 PM
Yeah, Oakland isn't exactly a latin enclave, even today.
Neither is Memphis!!!

How about Rolando Roomes? (Jamaica!)

And out of the bullpen... Hector Carrasco!

NJReds
06-16-2006, 01:09 PM
Juan Castro - 3B :evil:

westofyou
06-16-2006, 01:11 PM
Neither is Memphis!!!

How about Rolando Roomes? (Jamaica!)

And out of the bullpen... Hector Carrasco!
Vada's family moved to Oakland as a kid (ship yards) and he was signed by the same guy who inked Frank Robinson and Curt Flood, all from the same neighborhood.

Strikes Out Looking
06-16-2006, 01:29 PM
Ok-I was wrong about Pinson.

How about Santo Alcala in the starting rotation?

RedsManRick
06-16-2006, 01:37 PM
His time here was short and I can't see him on any "all-time" team, but Jose Guillen had a nice little run in RF.

westofyou
06-16-2006, 01:46 PM
BTW I'd take Leo at 3rd over Chico, he toiled there after he left the Reds, for Billy Martin none the less.

redsmetz
06-16-2006, 01:47 PM
And here's a question--Concepcion was from South America (Venezuala) does he qualify as Hispanic? I though it was from Central America--if that's the case, Lopez would be ss.

No, I mean the whole of Latin America (not just Central America).

Yes, I would add Pedro Borbon and shame on me for forgetting him. I would also add Manny Sarmiento, another fine pitcher whose arm fell off under the Reds tutelage.

redsmetz
06-16-2006, 01:51 PM
By the way, one who got away who should have been in there was Joaquin Andujar who we traded to Houston for a PTBNL, ultimately Luis Sanchez who we released and was picked up by the Angels after a few years in the Mexican league.

RedsManRick
06-16-2006, 01:55 PM
I know it's really early, but Chico Ruiz was a pretty craptastic player stats wise (.240/.279/.295). If EE completes his season at the rate he's going, he has to be in the running at 3rd...

redsmetz
06-16-2006, 02:02 PM
I know it's really early, but Chico Ruiz was a pretty craptastic player stats wise (.240/.279/.295). If EE completes his season at the rate he's going, he has to be in the running at 3rd...

You're absolutely right and I added him with the added note more for the irony given his demands to be benched or traded. And yes, I think EE may ultimately make this list, even after this season. For that matter, I could slide either Concepcion or Perez there and fill those positions with others, but I decided to stick with their main positions. But Ruiz is there because he wants to sit on the bench and I'm not letting him yet.

redsmetz
06-16-2006, 02:02 PM
So I could kick Doggie over there and put Eduardo at first. :)

TStuck
06-16-2006, 02:13 PM
Looking over the Reds rosters back to 1955, I was amazed at the number of Latin American players who were pretty nondescript during their time with the Reds, but had pretty decent (and in some cases great) careers either before or after their time here. Try some of these on for size:

Pitchers:
Mike Cuellar
Juan Guzman

Catchers:
Benito Santiago

Infielders:
Manny Trillo
Julian Javier
Tony Fernandez
Cookie Rojas

OFers
Carmelo Martinez
Roberto Kelly
Geronimo Berroa
Ruben Sierra

Some pretty decent names in there - some of those guys I'd forgotten about.

redsmetz
06-16-2006, 02:51 PM
Mike Cuellar falls into the same category as Juaquin Andujar, one who got away. Rojas was also a decent infielder who had a nice career after the Reds. I knew there were others who made stops here (e.g. I thought Santiago was here for more than one year). In the 50's, we had that farm club down in Havana and then we had guys in the system. I'm glad to see we're deepening our prescence down south again.

westofyou
06-16-2006, 03:05 PM
Mike Cuellar falls into the same category as Juaquin Andujar, one who got away. Rojas was also a decent infielder who had a nice career after the Reds. I knew there were others who made stops here (e.g. I thought Santiago was here for more than one year). In the 50's, we had that farm club down in Havana and then we had guys in the system. I'm glad to see we're deepening our prescence down south again.
Cueller had a language probelm and Bailey wasn't exactly a cuddly catcher, he intimidated young pitchers, some like O'Toole told him where to get off, others like Cueller and Osteen couldn't. IIRC Cueller was told not to throw his screwball and it took passes through two more organizations before Weaver plucked him from the Astros, about 5 years after he was a Red.

Spitball
06-16-2006, 03:30 PM
Vada is latin?

No he wasn't Latin, but when he first came up, many assumed he was, including one of the Reds' coaches.

It seems in his first training camp, a coach thought he was Latin and didn't speak English, so he was speaking to him very slowly and distinctly. "You..have..to..hold..your..hands..like..this. Do..you..understand?"
Pinson replied, "Perfectly."
The coach's jaw dropped and then they both laughed.

I saw this story in an article about Pinson in Sport magazine back in 1964 or '65.

How about Angel Bravo? The guy choked up further than any player live seen.

Spitball
06-16-2006, 03:36 PM
... Weaver plucked him from the Astros, about 5 years after he was a Red.

It was more like ten years after his brief stay with the Reds. The Astros traded Cuellar and, I believe, Enzo Hernandez to get Curt Blefary.

Joseph
06-16-2006, 04:59 PM
Juan Samuel

dabvu2498
06-16-2006, 05:00 PM
Tony Fernandez

redsmetz
06-16-2006, 05:29 PM
Tony Fernandez

There you go - Fernandez at 3B for the one good year he had with the Reds and that gives Chico Ruiz his wish to be on the bench.


Juan Samuel Doesn't make the cut. His one year was so-so and gets beaten out by Mariano Duncan's couple of years and besides, my kids always loved how the PA announcer always pronounced his name (Mar-ee-ann-o Dun [pause] can!)

redsupport
06-16-2006, 06:32 PM
How about Cesar hernandez, or Cecil Espy

oregonred
06-16-2006, 06:46 PM
Josias Manzanillo for closer

Spitball
06-16-2006, 06:58 PM
How about Cesar hernandez, or Cecil Espy

I'm not sure Espy was Latin, though he was from southern California.

dougflynn23
06-16-2006, 09:52 PM
:) If for no other reason than his heads-up baserunning in the 1975 World Series and legendary bunting skills, Ed Armbrister (Bahamas) has to be on this list. I'd also put in at least an honorable mention for Sam Mejias, arguably one of the nicest human beings ever to wear a Reds uniform. His wife and my summer league baseball coaches wife were best friends, and he got our entire team a field pass to take BP at Riverfront on a Reds off day in 1980. He pitched for us. Great guy.

redsmetz
06-16-2006, 11:21 PM
:) If for no other reason than his heads-up baserunning in the 1975 World Series and legendary bunting skills, Ed Armbrister (Bahamas) has to be on this list. I'd also put in at least an honorable mention for Sam Mejias, arguably one of the nicest human beings ever to wear a Reds uniform. His wife and my summer league baseball coaches wife were best friends, and he got our entire team a field pass to take BP at Riverfront on a Reds off day in 1980. He pitched for us. Great guy.

Unfortunately the Bahamas isn't part of Latin America being an English speaking country in the Carabean Sea. Yes, Sam Mejias can coach with Lou.

redsupport
06-17-2006, 01:48 AM
arturo de Frietas was definitely solid

redsmetz
06-17-2006, 07:54 AM
arturo de Frietas was definitely solid

Yikes! I don't even remember this guy? Twelve games in the late 70's - .208 BA though, doesn't make the squad. For those looking, it de Freitas.

redsupport
06-18-2006, 05:46 PM
does rafael santo domingo make it?

redsmetz
06-18-2006, 11:37 PM
does rafael santo domingo make it?

No, but maybe he can be the pitching coach:

http://www.ie66ers.com/team/coaches/?id=164

http://ie66ers.com.ismmedia.com/ISM2/StaffManager/2958.jpeg.300.jpeg

dabvu2498
06-18-2006, 11:44 PM
Espy was from So Cal. Same draft class as the infamous Billy Beane. Didn't you guys read Moneyball??? HA!

How about Xavier Hernandez? He was an integral part of the 95 bullpen.

redsmetz
06-19-2006, 12:04 AM
Well, here's an update with pictures. I tossed Ruiz and slipped Cardenas over to third even though he never played there. Oh well.

[QUOTE=redsmetz]
1B Tony Perez

http://www.onlinesports.com/images/phf-aaey027.jpg

2B Mariano Duncan

http://reds.mlb.com/cin/photo/ph_90_duncanmug.jpg

3B Tony Fernandez

http://66.132.169.43/images/13785.jpg

SS Dave Concepcion

http://www.campanellos.com/davie13.jpg

C Bo Diaz

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/bo_diaz_autograph.jpg

OF Cesar Geranimo

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nl/cincyreds/cgeronimo.jpg

OF Cesar Cedeno

http://www.grandstandsports.com/images/10004.jpg

OF Jose Guillen

http://reds.enquirer.com/2002/09/10/slam_zoom.jpg

P Mario Soto

http://www.dickperez.com/images/psd_dk_MarioSoto_lg.jpg

P Jose Rijo

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brew/image/2001/aug/rijo0817.jpg

P Dolf Luque

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/cin/images/ballpark/museum/hofers/ph_luque_51x65.jpg

P Manny Sarmiento

http://espanol.geocities.com/saludybeisbol/img/ManuelSarmiento.JPG

RP Pedro Borbon

http://www.creativewebpagedesigns.com/reds/pictures/pedro_borbon.jpg

Utility Infielder - Chico Cardenas

http://reds.enquirer.com/2002/10/27/reds_zoom.jpg

Manager Lou Pinella

http://reds.mlb.com/cin/photo/ph_90_piniellamug.jpg

reds1869
06-19-2006, 01:44 AM
Don't forget manuel Cueto. Along with Luque he made the Reds the most popular team in Cuba. To this day we still have an unbelievable fan base there, though they obviously don't get to watch much US ball. In fact there is a popular phrase in Cuba that generally translates to "beloved Cincinnati" that is a holdover from that era. So Potato Cueto must be on the list.

redsupport
06-19-2006, 02:10 AM
how about jorge rubio acquired by reds in a minor league transaction never pitched for reds, leo garcia tremendous infielder, pedro martinez another bullpen stalwart

MrCinatit
06-19-2006, 02:27 AM
Through all of this, i found it fascinating that Cookie Rojas played briefly for the Reds. I did not know this, or had forgotten this.
He was one of my favorite nobodies with the Royals in the mid-'70s, along with Freddy Patek. Guess i had a thing for no-hit, all field middle infielders.

redsupport
06-19-2006, 02:32 AM
rojas and tony gonzalez played for the reds, gonzalez had a good career with the phils, rojas was traded to the phils for great righthander JIm Owens

LINEDRIVER
06-19-2006, 07:47 PM
Off the top of my head, I would consider Tony Fernandez as the third baseman. Saw him play there in 1995(?) for the Reds. He had what they call 'soft hands'.

redsmetz
06-19-2006, 07:55 PM
Off the top of my head, I would consider Tony Fernandez as the third baseman. Saw him play there in 1995(?) for the Reds. He had what they call 'soft hands'.

I see he did play 93 games there for us. I think I'll swap him out, although Cardenas deserves to be the utility guy for the team.

redsupport
06-20-2006, 12:29 AM
how about this potent battery
on the mound Angel Torres
behind the plate
Guillermo Garcia