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View Full Version : Time to Rearrange the Seats on the Titanic



TheBigLebowski
06-18-2006, 02:03 AM
Todd Coffey officially became the closer on May 31, the last day of the month.

Todd's April ERA in 15.0 IP was 0.60 w/opposing batters hitting .246 against.
Todd's May ERA in 15.0 IP was 1.80 w/opposing batters hitting .214 against.
Todd's promotion (so to say) became effective on the first of June.
Todd's June ERA in 7.1 IP is 7.60. Don't have the opp batt. avg yet.

I would like to again remind the jury that Todd was the closer effective June 1.

We all know correlation may not imply causation, but I think it is fair to assume that Todd is not handling closing duties well. Appears to me that he is more comfortable in a setup role.

My Proposal:

Make Matt Belisle the closer effective as soon as he is healthy enough to pitch.

Put Todd back in the role he occupied in May/June.

Float a PTBNL to the Indians for Scott Sauerbeck. Restrict the universe of PTBNL choices to Rick White, Chris Hammond, Richard White, Ricky White, and Christopher Hammond. I'd also float a PTBNL to the 'Backs for Russ Ortiz, and promptly place him in the pen, provided we do not have to acquire much of his salary.

If the Sauerbeck trade does not go through, we need to reassign White and Hammond. Create a fan game that allows the fan to throw a baseball as hard as he/she can and, instead of having the fan guess how hard he/she threw the ball, he/she will guess what part of the White/Hammond anatomy he/she will hit. Bonus points are awarded for the left/right arm as applicable, and free beers to all if he/she hits a groin, so as to reduce the possibility that White and/or Hammond should reproduce. Think of it as flea market Darwinism. Should the player miss the target entirely, he/she has to pay double.

With regards to Mercker, Mays, Yan, Weathers, so on and so forth..I really don't know. I can't even think of creative ways in which we could inflict pain upon them. Honestly, all jokes aside, there is not one single person in this bullpen in which I place any confidence. Actually, that's not completely true - I have a high degree of confidence in their ability to allow runs to score each and every time they appear in Reds' games.

I never fully appreciated how important the bullpen is. When I was old enough to understand baseball, we had the Nasty Boys. Few years after they left, we still had a pretty good bullpen, although the rest of our team was lousy. I never understood what a priority it was. Don't think Jim Bowden or Dan O'Brien did either.

dsmith421
06-18-2006, 03:12 AM
I'm sorry, this team is soaring. We are rearranging seats on the Hindenburg.

cincinnati chili
06-18-2006, 03:22 AM
I'm sorry, this team is soaring. We are rearranging seats on the Hindenburg.

I know, I know. We're rearranging antennae on the World Trade Center.

GAC
06-18-2006, 07:03 AM
Why don't we play musical chairs with the closer job? When the music stops, whoever gets the chair, gets the job. ;)

I don't see any answers to this BP problem within this organization right now. We've been "trying" guys - calling some up, taking chances on other team's DFAs, and experimenting till the test monkey is just about dead.

This is a problem that may be fixed around the trading deadline, or it may have to wait till the off-season. And even then, we may have to dump some salary in order to add it.

Topcat
06-18-2006, 07:15 AM
I think Claussen could be a closer. Supposedly he has a bulldog mentality and frankly in one inning he could air it out and be damned with thinking beyond that point. Claussens problem is that he trys to work batters for multiple looks at him in a game. Limiting that and sending him out there with just blowing people away is the perfect way to make him effective.

traderumor
06-18-2006, 09:27 AM
We all know correlation may not imply causation, but I think it is fair to assume that Todd is not handling closing duties well.No we don't. If the first half of your statement is true, which it is, Coffey pitching poorly because he is in the closer's role is not necessarily the case. He simply is pitching poorly of late. Why imply that it is due to choking?

traderumor
06-18-2006, 09:31 AM
I think Claussen could be a closer. Supposedly he has a bulldog mentality and frankly in one inning he could air it out and be damned with thinking beyond that point. Claussens problem is that he trys to work batters for multiple looks at him in a game. Limiting that and sending him out there with just blowing people away is the perfect way to make him effective.I see no evidence that Claussen could air it out above 90 or 91, nor would he be someone that comes to mind when thinking of potential late inning relievers. For now, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that his arm has been barking for some time and has not allowed him to pitch the way he would like to. But, I would be more than happy to have better pitchers to fill the rotation going forward to push him into a long/middle relief or to deal him.

edabbs44
06-18-2006, 10:15 AM
Coffey wasn't in a closing situation yesterday and still got punished. How about Narron tells him that he isn't the closer anymore and still uses him in closer roles?

TheBigLebowski
06-18-2006, 10:41 AM
No we don't. If the first half of your statement is true, which it is, Coffey pitching poorly because he is in the closer's role is not necessarily the case. He simply is pitching poorly of late. Why imply that it is due to choking?

His ERA rose exponentially as soon as he assumed closers' duties. Could it be that he just happened to begin struggling that point in time? I suppose it is possible. My contention is that he probably would have maintained the same degree of effectiveness in June if he was still the 7th/8th inning setup man. There are a lot of really good setup men that just don't perform well as closers. LaTroy Hawkins immediately comes to mind. Bear in mind, I do acknowledge that 19 days may be a little too small of a sample size to make a final determination, but the evidence we do have at hand strongly suggests that Todd may not be comfortable in this role.

TheBigLebowski
06-18-2006, 10:44 AM
Coffey wasn't in a closing situation yesterday and still got punished. How about Narron tells him that he isn't the closer anymore and still uses him in closer roles?

He was brought in to a tie game in the 9th inning. This is traditionally a situation in which your closer is summoned. We're arguing semantics here.

In my not-so-humble opinion, if Todd throws the 7th and 8th innings yesterday and we have a suitable 9th inning option (perhaps Belisle) we win that game 5-4. Instead, our miserable set-up guys allow runs in the 7th and 8th to tie the game, and Todd swings the gate open in the 9th (although, to be fair, if Brandon makes a good throw, inning would have likely ended in a DP - still doesn't change the fact that Todd got in trouble AGAIN. Defense just didn't bail him out like they did against MIL earlier in the week).

Kc61
06-18-2006, 10:52 AM
In hindsight, Coffey should have remained the set up man. It is not too late and he can be restored to that spot.

This leaves Weathers as closer. I can live with it as a stop gap. He did ok in that role last year. He was less effective this year, but the Coffey/Weathers thing was more effective than the current thing.

If folks want to try Belisle out as closer, fine with me, but I think his value is as a middle inning guy who can pitch 2 or even 3 innings. I don't think he has been sufficiently effective to be a closer. Still, anything is worth a try.

Mario-Rijo
06-18-2006, 11:15 AM
I think the big issue w/ Coffey being the closer is that he hasn't been in enough games to remain effective. He has not pitched near the games that he had become accustomed to. In the long run if we can hang around for another 3 weeks or so w/o falling more than 5 or so back of 1st (which might be tough) and p/u a couple quality guys in June then this time off for Coffey will reap rewards late in the season!

Gallen5862
06-18-2006, 12:08 PM
Sauerbeck was released so no trade is required.

TheBigLebowski
06-18-2006, 12:19 PM
Sauerbeck was released so no trade is required.

Thought he was DFA'd?

Either way, let's give him a shot.

Gallen5862
06-18-2006, 12:22 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/transactions
Cleveland Indians Released pitcher Scott Sauerbeck.
This transaction was on Wednesday June 14,2006.

Marty and Joe
06-18-2006, 12:25 PM
From Rotoworld this morning on Sauerbeck:

"The Oakland A's are expected to sign former Cleveland Indian Scott Sauerbeck.
Sauerbeck was waived by the Indians after his recent arrest. He won't have any fantasy value for the A's. Jun. 18 - 8:36 am et"

Falls City Beer
06-18-2006, 01:16 PM
Leave Coffey where he is.

Candy Cummings
06-18-2006, 01:51 PM
You didn't really think he was going to keep pitching with those numbers did you?

pedro
06-18-2006, 02:08 PM
More like rearranging the box of eight tracks in the clown car.

KronoRed
06-18-2006, 05:00 PM
Use Coffey as needed, he's still the best option out of the pen, if it means not as a closer then so be it, saving him for the 9th is useless when the rest of the pen won't allow there to be a 9th to save.

Nugget
06-18-2006, 09:22 PM
I see doom and gloom has returned to REDSZONE again. Weren't similar posts going prior to the Houston - St. Louis stretch and we fell to more games out then. Admittedly the BP has been poor recently and haven't been able to carry Rick White (the only guy who has not carried his weight at some time during the season). The BP just seems to be in a collective slump have a few injuries but I'm not giving up on the REDS yet.

flyer85
06-18-2006, 09:27 PM
In the case of Coffey just a regression to the mean. He's not as good as the early season numbers and he not as bad as his recent numbers.

traderumor
06-18-2006, 09:37 PM
In the case of Coffey just a regression to the mean. He's not as good as the early season numbers and he not as bad as his recent numbers.That's my thinking, too. Of course, if Narron would just scrap the closer mentality and just try to tiptoe through the tulips a batter at a time in the late innings with this inferior bullpen, he might give the team more of a chance. Of course, when your guys are giving up taters to the other team's pitcher...an AL pitcher...:help:

oneupper
06-18-2006, 09:48 PM
Coffey wasn't in a closing situation yesterday and still got punished.

Punished?
Maybe I wasn't watching but, here is what I saw:

First guy: lines out to Valentin (probably the hardest hit ball of the inning).
Walk to Konerko, pitching carefully...(understadably) on a 3-2 count.
Dye hits a ball into the dirt around home plate which BOUNCES over Freel at third and turns into a double (close play at 2B).
A.J. with the long last name is intentionally walked.
Coffey gets double play ball from Crede, which Phillips throws into the stands scoring two.
Uribe hits a seeing eye GROUNDER up the middle to plate Crede (who should have been the last out).
Anderson grounds out.

The line is awful...granted. But the pitching was not.

Coffey did his job. He got the Sox to hit grounders. They bounced over guys through holes and we couldn't turn a DP.

Maybe he's reverting to mean...as in he's getting more "BABIP unlucky".

But the pitching was still OK in my book. Not PUNISHED...by any means.

TheBigLebowski
06-18-2006, 11:40 PM
I see doom and gloom has returned to REDSZONE again. Weren't similar posts going prior to the Houston - St. Louis stretch and we fell to more games out then. Admittedly the BP has been poor recently and haven't been able to carry Rick White (the only guy who has not carried his weight at some time during the season). The BP just seems to be in a collective slump have a few injuries but I'm not giving up on the REDS yet.

Question - how were you able to type so effectively while perched upon such a slippery slope?


This thread is about the bullpen, which has been bad all season regardless of the current playing level of the team as a whole. I don't really see anyone giving up on the team, although everyone is in agreement that this is an issue that will have to be resolved quickly if we do plan to attempt to contend this season.

Nugget
06-18-2006, 11:55 PM
I don't feel that the BP is the Titanic nor even the Lusitania. The only guy who has not pulled his weight at any time during the season was Rick White and Krivs has finally got rid of him. Mercker, Weathers and Hammond have all showed that they can still pitch. Mercker was injured the last few times out and Weathers is down as well. Its too early to make a call on Yan but he has been inconsistent which seems to be a trait of hard throwers. Same with Coffey. My issue is what has happened to Wags and Shack, two guys who could have helped get rid of White earlier.

edabbs44
06-18-2006, 11:57 PM
I see doom and gloom has returned to REDSZONE again. Weren't similar posts going prior to the Houston - St. Louis stretch and we fell to more games out then. Admittedly the BP has been poor recently and haven't been able to carry Rick White (the only guy who has not carried his weight at some time during the season). The BP just seems to be in a collective slump have a few injuries but I'm not giving up on the REDS yet.
How could you say that Burns has carried his weight at any point this season?

M2
06-19-2006, 12:14 AM
Use Coffey as needed, he's still the best option out of the pen, if it means not as a closer then so be it, saving him for the 9th is useless when the rest of the pen won't allow there to be a 9th to save.

Well, that would be the sensible thing to do.

And, of course, no matter if Coffey gets back on the horse, there's still six other slots in this bullpen that aren't working.

SteelSD
06-19-2006, 01:15 AM
Well, that would be the sensible thing to do.

And, of course, no matter if Coffey gets back on the horse, there's still six other slots in this bullpen that aren't working.

Exactly. Coffey is the one guy I'd trust to throw as much as setup at this point. He'd be a decent setup guy on a good team.

But I can't understand how anyone possibly couldn't see the rest of this disaster coming. If you rely on other teams' rejects and decide that old guys aren't ever going to go busto, you'd be downright crazy.

The worst part is that a team like the Reds desperately hopes for overachievement from the rotation pieces. They got that from Arroyo and especially Ramirez thusfar even though Claussen and Milton (who's a mirage) have switched places. Harang is Harang.

Knowing what we're seeing, there's a serious responsibility to do something other than swapping deck chairs on the Titanic regarding the bullpen. They've got perfectly good minor league pieces to swap for relief arms. They've got perfectly good relief arms in the minors they could throw at the wall rather than the guys we're seeing- all of who failed to stick prior to the current hurl at a vertical surface that isn't, at all, non-stick. You perform, you stick. Nothing hard about that.

RFS62
06-19-2006, 01:18 AM
I don't feel that the BP is the Titanic nor even the Lusitania.


Yeah, you're right.

The bullpen, as is, is the Hindenburg.

Chip R
06-19-2006, 03:50 PM
Yeah, it doesn't matter where Coffey is used if the rest of the bullpen stinks. As for Belisle, I like him but he has been about as inconsistent as Claussen so far this year. I wouldn't mind seeing him as setup man when he gets back.

KronoRed
06-19-2006, 04:36 PM
Yeah, you're right.

The bullpen, as is, is the Hindenburg.
So we need some helium?

That could help..the pen would still get bashed but they would talk in those funny voices at least

Caveat Emperor
06-19-2006, 05:56 PM
I say bring back "pitch to contact."

(ducks)

Ltlabner
06-20-2006, 05:33 PM
I'd like to know who thought bringing Burns up again would yeild a different result than previous disasters? One theory that was given (perhaps by John Fey?) was that they knew it was a short term move and didn't want to burn another guy's options.

If that is true, why on earth would you actually bring him in to pitch a game (and promptly get hammered yet again)? This guy has three strikes now and should be DFA'd as soon as humanly possible.

The horse is dead and beyond beaten into a pulp, but The Kriv has to get us some real BP arms (note, arms, as in plural, as in more than one person), not try to get lucky with another "Philips-in-a-Bottle" type move wiht someone elses reject. Another starter would be nice too.