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reds44
06-18-2006, 09:02 PM
Alright what is the deal board? It seems to me last weekend out all-star shortstop had a rough go on defense. He made a few bad plays against the Cubs, and there was a 3 page thread titled "Hang this series loss on Lopez."

Now let's go to last night. 9th inning man on 1st Jermaine Dye hits a bloop that drops in front of Dunn, Dunn makes a good throw into 2nd base to get Dye in plenty of time. Phillips misses the tag.

Same inning. Bases loaded 1 out.
Joe Crede hits a bouncer up the middle that Felipe makes a nice back handed play on and flips to Phillips who, in turns throws it into the dugout allowing (eventually) 2 runs to score. Was it an easy play? Nope not at all, but one that kid have been made.

Last night Top 4 Felipe Lopez. Joe Crede up.
Lopez makes a fantastic play up the middle and shows his strong arm to save a run and throw him out at 1st. He also made a few other very nice plays.

Bottom 5
lead off homer to tie the game at 1-1.

And before someone talks about his groundout in the 9th, he was robbed by Ozuna.

Why no "Hang this loss on Brandon Phillips" thread?

Ok now Saturday's loss wasn't all Phillips fault it was mostly the pens, but the Cubs series loss wasn't all Lopez's fault. I am a big BP backer, and I am not bashing him.

All I am trying to say is there seems to be a double standard on this board when it comes to Phillips and Lopez. Sometimes I think we are spoiled by BP's defense, and use it to bash Lopez. Felipe is an all-star and is having another fine year. Does he make some errors? Yes, but he also makes plays that go unnoticed.

remdog
06-18-2006, 09:25 PM
I think it may be that Brandon has been pretty solid all along plus SS is the more visible of the two positions.

With Lopez I am just as often surprised at the balls he doesn't get to as when he makes a spectacular stop.

By the way, IIRC, the potential double play ball was hit to Lopez' glove side and he slid laterally and slightly backwards to play a longer hop. I was surprised he didn't play it on the short hop. It would have been a harder ball to field but would have made the pivot at second pretty easy.

I'm not saying that Phillips shouldn't have made the throw anyway but a quicker relay would have ment that the runner would not have been close to Brandon when he threw the ball. The thing I liked in the paper this morning was when Brandon said he learned a lesson that he won't forget; the runner comes in high he's got a good chance of ending up with a baseball where his nose used to be. (I will say that I have to wonder why Brandon is just 'learning' this now, though. Most SS' and 2nd basemen learn it about the age of eight.)

Rem

wheels
06-18-2006, 09:57 PM
I think it's because there it's becoming less and less plausible that the team's better young players are the cause of the team's woes.

The bullpen stepped to the front of the class bare naked, and they're looking worse in the buff than Will Farrel's "nude homeless guy".

jimbo
06-18-2006, 10:32 PM
I think there hasn't been the outlash against Phillips because he has not made it a habit of making mental mistakes. Lopez has been making bonehead mental mistakes in the field for the majority of the season, most of his 13 errors coming on routine plays demonstrates this. This team has a lot of physical talent but not very many players who have a good baseball mind......Phillips in my opinion is one of the few who has both the talent and the smarts.

RedsMan3203
06-18-2006, 10:37 PM
Because last night is the only night I remember Phillips really "costings" the Reds a game....

Lopez on the other hand......

reds44
06-18-2006, 10:38 PM
Because last night is the only night I remember Phillips really "costings" the Reds a game....

Lopez on the other hand......
Let's hear all the games he "cost" the Reds.

People exaggerate how bad his defense is, and he is one of the better offensive SS in baseball.

lucky bugle boy
06-18-2006, 10:40 PM
Lopez: 13 errors
Phillips: 4 errors

It was a very dissapointing play Saturday night though. He might not have made the play even with a good throw, and based on other things happening that inning, I think the Reds would have lost anyway.

edabbs44
06-18-2006, 10:41 PM
I think the double standard is based on people expecting more from Lopez. Phillips cost us nothing and Lopez, after last year, had very high expectations placed upon him by the fans. Now if Phillips were to continue to have a great year, next year the boo birds will be out if he were to have some more of these issues.

remdog
06-18-2006, 10:43 PM
Let's hear all the games he "cost" the Reds.

People exaggerate how bad his defense is, and he is one of the better offensive SS in baseball.

I'm sorry but I can't agree with that. His range is (sometimes) surpriseingly limited and I think he sometimes makes poor judgements in the field. :dunno: Those are just my objective observations from the times I've seen him play.

I really am hopeful that the Reds flip-flop Phillips and Lopez in ST next year.

Rem

RedsMan3203
06-18-2006, 10:46 PM
Right Now.. I'm drawing a blank on the games... Only one sticking out is against the Tigers... But I know his D has cost us a few more games....

But, this infield D needs a rework...

I like the idea of... Lopez to 3rd, Edwin to 1st, and Phillps to SS... Ray-Ray or William B to 2nd.

reds44
06-18-2006, 10:48 PM
Right Now.. I'm drawing a blank on the games... Only one sticking out is against the Tigers... But I know his D has cost us a few more games....

But, this infield D needs a rework...

I like the idea of... Lopez to 3rd, Edwin to 1st, and Phillps to SS... Ray-Ray or William B to 2nd.
His D didn't cost us the Tigers game, David Weathers giving up a 2 out homer in the 9th did.

Sorry but IMO that arrangement makes the infield offense and defense worse.

jimbo
06-18-2006, 10:51 PM
I'm sorry but I can't agree with that. His range is (sometimes) surpriseingly limited and I think he sometimes makes poor judgements in the field. :dunno: Those are just my objective observations from the times I've seen him play.

I really am hopeful that the Reds flip-flop Phillips and Lopez in ST next year.

Rem

I agree with you. I think Phillips would make a better defensive SS than Lopez. I'm not so much knocking the talent of Lopez, only his mental lapses.

RedsMan3203
06-18-2006, 10:52 PM
His D didn't cost us the Tigers game, David Weathers giving up a 2 out homer in the 9th did.

Sorry but IMO that arrangement makes the infield offense and defense worse.

Weathers had part in it.. Lopez gets about 95% of the L on that one... A routine grounder to SS if I remember correctly... And a throw that sails... (normal stuff)

---

Can't see how it makes it worse? A lil practice for EE at 1st he'll be good.

Lopez has the range/arm to play 3rd... Might even cut down on some Errors... Not as long of a throw... (Or even move him to 2nd, doesn't matter to me)

Phillips can play SS... The Kid is all over the place at 2nd... HE has a good enough arm to play SS...

2nd base is up the air... Freel/Ray/William/Aurrila/Castro any of them can play 2nd...

Gonna have to find someone to man 1st soon... Aurrila/Hatte aren't going to be around forever...

reds44
06-18-2006, 10:55 PM
Weathers had part in it.. Lopez gets about 95% of the L on that one... A routine grounder to SS if I remember correctly... And a throw that sails... (normal stuff)

---

Can't see how it makes it worse? A lil practice for EE at 1st he'll be good.

Lopez has the range/arm to play 3rd... Might even cut down on some Errors... Not as long of a throw... (Or even move him to 2nd, doesn't matter to me)

Phillips can play SS... The Kid is all over the place at 2nd... HE has a good enough arm to play SS...

2nd base is up the air... Freel/Ray/William/Aurrila/Castro any of them can play 2nd...

Gonna have to find someone to man 1st soon... Aurrila/Hatte aren't going to be around forever...
Joey Votto and Adam Dunn say sup.

Bergolla can't hit in AAA, what makes you think he will hit up here?

Moving EE after 2 months at 3B is a bad move. He has all the tools to be a good defensive 3rd baseman. To me it seems like Felipe has a better arm then BP does.

Felipe couldn't get the ball out of his glove it happens. He still threw a very pickable ball to 1st that RA made a half-hearted attempt to pick. You don't remember it that well if you thought the throw "sailed".

That L was 95% Weathers fault, and 5% Felipe's.

CTA513
06-18-2006, 10:59 PM
If you want I can make a "Hang this loss on Brandon Phillips" thread.

:)

dabvu2498
06-18-2006, 11:00 PM
One could also make approximately 31 "hang this loss on the bullpen" threads

CTA513
06-18-2006, 11:01 PM
One could also make approximately 31 "hang this loss on the bullpen" threads

We better get started.

:devil:

Brandon4MVP
06-18-2006, 11:01 PM
Lets not knock Brandon Phillips. He is the one that has kept us with this record. And we also got him for basically nothing. He has been the one of two huge pick ups (Arroyo)

RedsMan3203
06-18-2006, 11:01 PM
Felipe couldn't get the ball out of his glove it happens. He still threw a very pickable ball to 1st that RA made a half-hearted attempt to pick. You don't remember it that well if you thought the throw "sailed".

That L was 95% Weathers fault, and 5% Felipe's.


I remember RA making a jump to what would be his left... HE JUMPED. The Ball sailed...

Lopez is a great player... Just think he'd be better utlized at a differet position... Thats all...

If we were serious about Dunn playing 1st... He'd be playing there now... But.. We aren't... So i don't think he'll be changing spots any time soon.

Lopez may have a better arm... Phillips has better range... Thanks for sure.

Just in case you are wondering... Lopez Errors 2005: 17 2006: 13

reds44
06-18-2006, 11:02 PM
I remember RA making a jump to what would be his left... HE JUMPED. The Ball sailed...

Lopez is a great player... Just think he'd be better utlized at a differet position... Thats all...

If we were serious about Dunn playing 1st... He'd be playing there now... But.. We aren't... So i don't think he'll be changing spots any time soon.

Lopez may have a better arm... Phillips has better range... Thanks for sure.

Just in case you are wondering... Lopez Errors 2005: 17 2006: 13
Rich didn't jump, the ball one hopped to him.

CTA513
06-18-2006, 11:03 PM
Just in case you are wondering... Lopez Errors 2005: 17 2006: 13


The Reds also had a Sean Casey at 1st last year, neither Hatteberg or Aurilia are near as good with the glove compaired to Casey.

RedsMan3203
06-18-2006, 11:05 PM
The ball didn't one hopped to him.... Are you remembering the same game i'm remembering?

KronoRed
06-18-2006, 11:07 PM
One could also make approximately 31 "hang this loss on the bullpen" threads
Or just one and bump it up everytime it happens, would be a big thread ;)

reds44
06-18-2006, 11:07 PM
Also the play before Felipe had the ball stuck in his glove, BP booted an easy double play and only got 1 out of it.

I am watching the Tiger game replay on mlb.tv right now.

reds44
06-18-2006, 11:07 PM
The ball didn't one hopped to him.... Are you remembering the same game i'm remembering?
The Tigers game?

I am watching it on mlb.tv right now.

reds44
06-18-2006, 11:09 PM
Same inning same game, Phillips dropped the ball when they had Guillen CS.

So actually Phillips cost the Reds 2 outs that inning. That game was more BP's fault then Felipe's.

Anyone who doesn't believe me and has MLB.TV go watch the 7-6 L to the Tigers and go to the 3:06 mark.

RedsMan3203
06-18-2006, 11:12 PM
Tigers game on the 20th... I don't have the full acesss so I can't go in and re watch it.

reds44
06-18-2006, 11:13 PM
I don't think you need full access. I don't have it (at least I don't think) and it let me watch it.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/wrap.jsp?ymd=20060520&content_id=1463748&vkey=wrapup2005&fext=.jsp&team=away

Try it.

RedsMan3203
06-18-2006, 11:16 PM
Either my username/pass don't work anymore... or I can't get it..

If you bought the full season.. You probably have it... I bought only a month and haven't canceled it yet

reds44
06-18-2006, 11:18 PM
Either my username/pass don't work anymore... or I can't get it..

If you bought the full season.. You probably have it... I bought only a month and haven't canceled it yet
Ahhh that would explain it, I have the full season.


Phillips was more to blame for that loss then Felipe was. If BP doesn't drop the ball on the CS or doesn't boot the DP and only get one, Felipe never has a chance to make that play.

Either way they are both fine players.

RedsMan3203
06-18-2006, 11:21 PM
Trade Lopez. :devil:

KronoRed
06-18-2006, 11:22 PM
Trade Lopez. :devil:
If he won't move to 2nd or sign long term..Agreed.

Highlifeman21
06-18-2006, 11:28 PM
Joey Votto and Adam Dunn say sup.

Bergolla can't hit in AAA, what makes you think he will hit up here?

Moving EE after 2 months at 3B is a bad move. He has all the tools to be a good defensive 3rd baseman. To me it seems like Felipe has a better arm then BP does.




And when will we see Votto on the 25 man roster on a regular basis? 2009?

Hopefully the Reds as an organization will make D a priority in 2007, b/c so far in 2006 our D is a patchwork quilt at best.

We have a CF with great instincts, but his body can't do what his mind wants and or tells him. We have a LF who would be a huge target at 1B which I can't for the life of me imagine would do anything but help eliminate some throwing errors from the left side of the IF. We have a 3B who is young, needs more experience before we pass judgment. We have a SS who is arguably in the top 5 WORST defensively in all of MLB in terms of range and an erratic arm. Our best SS option right now is wasting his range at 2B. Our 2nd best D option for the OF is collecting dust in Louisville.

Defensively, I think our best team would look something like:

1B - Dunn
2B - Lopez/Fill in the Blank
3B - EE
SS - Phillips

LF - Griffey
CF - Denorfia
RF - Kearns

I might even be tempted to put Lopez @ 3B and EE @ 2B, but it's a toss up.

Bergolla isn't a positive solution for this ballclub as a complete player. He's a younger version of our newest Red, Juan Castro. Can't hit a lick, but plays solid D.

I wonder why you're convinced Lopez has a better arm than Phillips. I've seen nothing to suggest this.

I understand that you have some manlove for Lopez, and offensively it makes sense, but defensively it could be argued that he is battling Griffey for the title of "Who Hurts the Reds More Defensively".

Dunn bashers, feel free to hijack this thread with reasons why 44 is the worse defensive issue for the Reds...

reds44
06-18-2006, 11:30 PM
Felipe has bad range that is true. However he has a very strong arm. I don't know what I can show you to prove that, but IMO he does. It seems to me he has a strong arm but lacks range.

I won't complaining with flopping BP and Felipe, however I think some think his D is worse then it actually is.

dabvu2498
06-18-2006, 11:31 PM
I'm not worried about Dunn catching throws at 1B... ground balls scare me though.

reds44
06-18-2006, 11:32 PM
Dunn actually made some good plays in LF on Saturday. Showed a good arm.

dabvu2498
06-18-2006, 11:41 PM
Dunn actually made some good plays in LF on Saturday. Showed a good arm.
He has a 0.9 fielding rating on the HBT winshares ratings. Which is not as low as I thought it might be. That puts him ahead of some guys (Reggie Abercrombie for one) that I thought he would be behind. My point would be, he's not as miserable out there as some would believe. But when he looks bad, he looks baaaaaaaaaaad... kinda similar to some of his plate appearances.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=winshares&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=field&direction=DESC&season_filter%5B%5D=2006&league_filter%5B%5D=NL&pos_filter%5B%5D=OF&Submit=Submit

big boy
06-19-2006, 12:25 AM
The thing I liked in the paper this morning was when Brandon said he learned a lesson that he won't forget; the runner comes in high he's got a good chance of ending up with a baseball where his nose used to be. (I will say that I have to wonder why Brandon is just 'learning' this now, though. Most SS' and 2nd basemen learn it about the age of eight.)

Rem

This is the reason they can't turn over shortstop to BP. He just doesn't have the experience. Felo should own that position until someone like Janish is ready to go as I can't imagine BP being any better.

jimbo
06-19-2006, 01:00 AM
This is the reason they can't turn over shortstop to BP. He just doesn't have the experience. Felo should own that position until someone like Janish is ready to go as I can't imagine BP being any better.

Phillips was drafted as a SS and played the position in the minors. It wouldn't be like he was learning a new position. I can't see Phillips having the number of errors playing SS that Lopez has had up to this point of the season, at least they wouldn't be mental mistakes.

jimbo
06-19-2006, 01:05 AM
(I will say that I have to wonder why Brandon is just 'learning' this now, though. Most SS' and 2nd basemen learn it about the age of eight.)

Rem

If he had to do it over again Phillips is basically saying he would put the ball between Pierzynski's eyes instead of making the throw......the end result would have been the same. I can't see 8 year olds learning to throw at a guy's head if he's coming in high on a slide. Actually, 8 year olds would not have the speed and quickness to turn a double play.

reds44
06-19-2006, 01:19 AM
Good I am glad I wasn't the only one who thought Pierzynski came in high.

I would have put it between his eyes also.

CTA513
06-19-2006, 01:29 AM
Good I am glad I wasn't the only one who thought Pierzynski came in high.

I would have put it between his eyes also.


Dunn made sure to take out the guy covering second today, it looked like it was a harder slide then A.J.s.

:thumbup:

reds44
06-19-2006, 01:33 AM
Dunn made sure to take out the guy covering second today, it looked like it was a harder slide then A.J.s.

:thumbup:
I was driving home, there is a difference between a hard slide and going in high.

Was it hard or high?

KronoRed
06-19-2006, 01:34 AM
I'm not worried about Dunn catching throws at 1B... ground balls scare me though.
He'd get used to it.

CTA513
06-19-2006, 02:14 AM
I was driving home, there is a difference between a hard slide and going in high.

Was it hard or high?

Dunns slide looked like a take out slide, though someone else may have seen it differently.
I dont have MLB.tv or I would look over the game to find it.
It wasnt one of his usual slide 5 feet in front of the base slides.
This slide actually had him go across second and take out the second basemen making his throw too high to get the out at first.

remdog
06-19-2006, 10:16 AM
If he had to do it over again Phillips is basically saying he would put the ball between Pierzynski's eyes instead of making the throw......the end result would have been the same. I can't see 8 year olds learning to throw at a guy's head if he's coming in high on a slide. Actually, 8 year olds would not have the speed and quickness to turn a double play.

Obviously, I was exaggerating for effect there but by the time I was 10 we were turning double plays and one of the things they taught us was that if a runner is coming in high you simply drop your arm and make the throw sidearm instead of over the top. It takes an extreamly brave or extreamly dumb baserunner not to duck in that situation. Had Phillips dropped his arm there the situation would not necessarily been the same.

Rem

Mario-Rijo
06-19-2006, 01:10 PM
Let's hear all the games he "cost" the Reds.

People exaggerate how bad his defense is, and he is one of the better offensive SS in baseball.


Reds44 I like that you feel the need to defend Felipe, it shows me that you fancy yourself a leader as opposed to a follower. I actually do agree with you quite a bit, but this time you are wrong. His defense is below average in every way except a strong arm not a cannon mind you but it's above average. His defensive shortcomings are not exaggerated whatsoever. He has made errors and or brainfarts of epic proportions on almost any kind of play you can imagine that a SS can make. It's become apparent to me that he plays SS only because he has enough physical talent to pull it off to some degree. In other words if the SS scale is 1-10, 1 being you might as well be a DH, 10 being HOF worthy and 5 being adequate but not ideal, Felipe would be 5 maybe 6.

reds44
06-19-2006, 02:18 PM
Reds44 I like that you feel the need to defend Felipe, it shows me that you fancy yourself a leader as opposed to a follower. I actually do agree with you quite a bit, but this time you are wrong. His defense is below average in every way except a strong arm not a cannon mind you but it's above average. His defensive shortcomings are not exaggerated whatsoever. He has made errors and or brainfarts of epic proportions on almost any kind of play you can imagine that a SS can make. It's become apparent to me that he plays SS only because he has enough physical talent to pull it off to some degree. In other words if the SS scale is 1-10, 1 being you might as well be a DH, 10 being HOF worthy and 5 being adequate but not ideal, Felipe would be 5 maybe 6.
If I am sounding like I think Felipe is a Gold Glove SS, that is not how I really feel. Even I said earlier in the thread Phillips would probably be a better SS then Felipe. All I was trying to say is that I think Felipe isn't quite as bad people make him out to be. Also people like to hang the Tigers loss on him when it was really more Weathers and BP's fault then Felipe. He got tourched after the Cubs series because of his inbility to turn a double play, and I was just curious why hardly a peep was said about BP when he blew 2 plays.

Felipe is a below average to average defender (not awful) whose flaws are magnified because of Brandon Phillips.

tripleaaaron
06-20-2006, 12:06 AM
Lets not knock Brandon Phillips. He is the one that has kept us with this record. And we also got him for basically nothing. He has been the one of two huge pick ups (Arroyo)

make that one of 3 huge pick-ups, lest we not forget that Ross was also a great pickup

reds44
06-20-2006, 12:08 AM
Lets not knock Brandon Phillips. He is the one that has kept us with this record. And we also got him for basically nothing. He has been the one of two huge pick ups (Arroyo)
I wasn't trying to bash BP because he has been awesome for us this year (see tonight). All I was trying to say is that if Felipe had done the same thing he would have got ripped on the boards.