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klw
06-21-2006, 08:40 AM
Sorry if posted elsewhere, but just in case anyone was curious:
He was put on the AAA DL with a sore shoulder on June 14
At Norfolk he had done:

Dave Williams

Pitching Statistics


Team League Level W L ERA G GS SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP AVG TPA BK WP STR%
Norfolk Tides INT AAA 1 2 6.48 3 3 0 16.2 21 16 12 2 7 4 2 .300 79 0 0 ---

Redhook
06-21-2006, 08:44 AM
Sore shoulder or sore ego?

I actually feel bad for the guy. He seems like a decent guy that gives 100%, but he's completely lost it. It'd probably be best if he shut it down for the rest of this year and started fresh next year.

RANDY IN INDY
06-21-2006, 09:02 AM
One of the worst returns on a trade that the Reds have ever made.

redsfanmia
06-21-2006, 09:49 AM
One of the worst returns on a trade that the Reds have ever made.
The true return on that trade was getting rid of Casey's salary. I still think that the Williams is better that alot of the garbage we have in bullpen now.

flyer85
06-21-2006, 09:51 AM
The true return on that trade was getting rid of Casey's salary. It's hard to see what the Reds did that made good use of the extra cash, all they did was sign a bunch of crafty veterans. :help:

RANDY IN INDY
06-21-2006, 09:54 AM
The true return on that trade was getting rid of Casey's salary. I still think that the Williams is better that alot of the garbage we have in bullpen now.

I keep hearing that and every time I hear it, it makes me laugh out loud. The return should have been much better.

registerthis
06-21-2006, 10:04 AM
The true return on that trade was getting rid of Casey's salary. I still think that the Williams is better that alot of the garbage we have in bullpen now.

Yeah, but good grief, we couldv'e gotten at least SOMETHING of value. Casey isn't exactly all-century material, but to say we were only able to get Dave Williams for him--even considering Casey's contract--is rather pitiful.

redsmetz
06-21-2006, 10:29 AM
Yeah, but good grief, we couldv'e gotten at least SOMETHING of value. Casey isn't exactly all-century material, but to say we were only able to get Dave Williams for him--even considering Casey's contract--is rather pitiful.

Actually, we really have only gotten a Single A maybe (via the Mets).

I've suspect all along that Williams was hurting, particularly after the Pirates series in which they plainly said he wasn't throwing as hard as he had. I wouldn't be surprised to find he needs surgery and is out the remainder of the season.

redsfanmia
06-21-2006, 10:39 AM
Yeah, but good grief, we couldv'e gotten at least SOMETHING of value. Casey isn't exactly all-century material, but to say we were only able to get Dave Williams for him--even considering Casey's contract--is rather pitiful.


I really hate to say this but Casey really had no trade value, the only team that had any interest in him was Pittsburgh and that was just because he was a hometown boy. Why trade for Casey and give anything up for him when you could just sign Hatteberg for 1/10 the salary and get the same thing.

jimbo
06-21-2006, 12:51 PM
The true return on that trade was getting rid of Casey's salary. I still think that the Williams is better that alot of the garbage we have in bullpen now.

Where did that money go? Some say Dunn's signing and few other one-year signings, but I think those would have happened either way. The money was never used as management at that time told us it would be used for. So in the end, the trade accomplished nothing.

LoganBuck
06-21-2006, 01:09 PM
Where did that money go? Some say Dunn's signing and few other one-year signings, but I think those would have happened either way. The money was never used as management at that time told us it would be used for. So in the end, the trade accomplished nothing.

Sean Casey the human being, is an absolute superstar. Sean Casey the baseball player, is just not. Casey's money went into signings/acquisitions of Dunn, Lopez, Harang, Larue, Hatteburg, Hammond, White, Womack, Phillips, Ross and Yan. The seven million saved provided the flexibility to make moves, obviously it didn't cover all that, but the point was it provided wiggle room. Hatteburg has given us similar production at 1/10th the cost.

savafan
06-21-2006, 01:11 PM
Where did that money go? Some say Dunn's signing and few other one-year signings, but I think those would have happened either way. The money was never used as management at that time told us it would be used for. So in the end, the trade accomplished nothing.

Hard for me to point fingers now, as that woefully inept management is no longer around.

jimbo
06-21-2006, 01:47 PM
Sean Casey the human being, is an absolute superstar. Sean Casey the baseball player, is just not. Casey's money went into signings/acquisitions of Dunn, Lopez, Harang, Larue, Hatteburg, Hammond, White, Womack, Phillips, Ross and Yan. The seven million saved provided the flexibility to make moves, obviously it didn't cover all that, but the point was it provided wiggle room. Hatteburg has given us similar production at 1/10th the cost.

Like I said, I think the majority of those signings would have happened even had Casey stayed. It had been stated when the Casey deal was made that money had already been allocated to players eligible for arbitration and that the money saved in that deal would be used for pitching. You could say the majority of that $8 million went to LaRue and Womack......which was a complete waste. The rest of players mentioned all make minimal salaries and would have been brought in anyway..

In other words, the trade did little to help the team.

LoganBuck
06-21-2006, 02:05 PM
You don't know that and neither do I, but the move made sense then and it does now, remember many people on here would have taken a dirty sock in exchange for Casey and his salary. The Reds got exactly that in Dave Williams. One could argue that Casey was actually too nice, and that it was essential to the chemistry to remove him. I won't pretend to know the inner workings of the Reds then or now, but I won't believe for a second that Castellini didn't get a heads up on the trade of a fan favorite, like Casey.

Larue got a nice deal for a catcher with his level of performance, but he hardly broke the bank. Perhaps if he was playing more he would be finding his level. I am not a Larue apologist, Ross has earned his current playing time, but Larue is the seasoned vet, who will come around, calling him a complete waste, is a waste of bandwidth.

jimbo
06-21-2006, 02:22 PM
The majority of the guys you mentioned do not make much and are the type of players that come and go every year on this team. Money had already been allocated for arbitration eligible players. I have no problem trading anyone if we get something of equal or greater value, or if the money saved is used to improve the team. This team needed quality pitching and the money was not used for that. Casey is not as good as some here protray him as, but he is also not as bad some here say. I didn't like the trade from the beginning, because of who we got in return and when the money was not used for pitching I disapproved of it even more.

For clarification, I did not say that LaRue is a "complete waste." I said the money spent signing him was wasted because he is now a backup catcher. I like LaRue, but I didn't think he was worth the $4 million at the time of the signing because we had a catcher in Valentin who put up some nice numbers last year who could have been put in the starting spot.

pedro
06-21-2006, 02:33 PM
The value of droping Casey's salary is really less in the post Lindner world.

ochre
06-21-2006, 02:45 PM
with 1 year of salary owed Casey, the value of dropping that contract was nearly the same as the actual value of acquiring Dave Williams. nil.

Trade him a year, or two, ago and the contract might have been a valid reason.

KronoRed
06-21-2006, 03:10 PM
It's hard to see what the Reds did that made good use of the extra cash, all they did was sign a bunch of crafty veterans. :help:
Dunn extension?

That's how I try and justify it ;)

redsfanmia
06-21-2006, 05:42 PM
The value of droping Casey's salary is really less in the post Lindner world.


Is it really? What has Cast done money wise to show you just how different he is from Linder other than talk a good game? The Reds are in contention now and need to pick up a new bullpen and lets see if he actually will add to the payroll or if he is just talking a good game.

pedro
06-21-2006, 06:00 PM
Is it really? What has Cast done money wise to show you just how different he is from Linder other than talk a good game? The Reds are in contention now and need to pick up a new bullpen and lets see if he actually will add to the payroll or if he is just talking a good game.

They signed Adam Dunn.

They flew Jason Larue in a private jet to get surgery.

They dumped Tony Womack.

Maybe you're right, but all this speculation about cutting salaries (such as Larue's) is predicated on the mistaken belief that we have the knowledge of what the upper end of the payroll really is. We don't anymore.

I was all for dumping Casey's salary, but I think things have changed with Castellini. Now maybe I'm wrong, but I have just as much information to support my view as we now do about what the payroll flexibility really is.

nick311reds
06-21-2006, 06:02 PM
The deal we got for Williams was golden and his name is Robert Manuel. I saw this kid pitch for the Dragons last Friday and he had some great stuff. He got the win and is the second best pitcher on the team next to Cueto. I spoke with him at the end of the game and told him the Dave Williams trade seemed to work out for Cincy he agreed. He's got an Era in the low 2's this kid looks good! We'll be hearing about him in the next few years. once again Krivsky is a genius. So in reality we got a great young pitcher for Sean Casey that we'll probable be pitching for the Reds in the next few years mark my words!

gm
06-21-2006, 06:10 PM
Where did that money go?

Bronson Arroyo?

jimbo
06-21-2006, 06:21 PM
Bronson Arroyo?

Arroyo makes $3 million to Pena's $1.25 million. The Red Sox sent $1.5 million along with Arroyo to practically offset the salary difference.

nick311reds
06-21-2006, 06:30 PM
Here's some more info on Manuel

Manuel, 22, was signed by New York as a non-drafted free agent on June 17, 2005. He went 8-1 with a 2.06 ERA in 12 games (five starts) for the Gulf Coast Mets (R) in 2005. In 56.2 innings, he allowed 55 hits, 19 runs, 13 earned, with four walks and 49 strikeouts. Manuel tied for the Gulf Coast League lead in wins, was second in ERA, and fourth in strikeouts. Robert also appeared in two contests for the Brooklyn Cyclones (A) of the New York - Penn League, going 0-0 with a 1.80 ERA. He pitched 5.0 innings in two relief appearances, permitting five hits, one run, earned, with five strikeouts.

Dayton Dragons 2006 Stats
ERA 1.31 / games 5 / games started 2 / innings pitched / hits 16 / runs 3 / earned runs 3 / walks 1 / strike outs 14 /

This guy will pay off!

nick311reds
06-21-2006, 06:45 PM
1

traderumor
06-21-2006, 07:00 PM
What the money is spent on is irrelevant to whether or not dumping a large contract when the production is not likely to match the dollars is a good thing, esp. since the one spending the money is not the same person who traded on that premise.

Plus, no one is considering the value to the trade of watching DanO shoot himself in the foot one last time and helped lead to his dismissal. In a Mastercard kind of way, priceless :)

KronoRed
06-21-2006, 07:02 PM
1
2?

redsfanmia
06-21-2006, 07:30 PM
They signed Adam Dunn.

They flew Jason Larue in a private jet to get surgery.

They dumped Tony Womack.

Maybe you're right, but all this speculation about cutting salaries (such as Larue's) is predicated on the mistaken belief that we have the knowledge of what the upper end of the payroll really is. We don't anymore.

I was all for dumping Casey's salary, but I think things have changed with Castellini. Now maybe I'm wrong, but I have just as much information to support my view as we now do about what the payroll flexibility really is.
I agree that he has made some good moves and I think you didnt add the most important thing Castellini has done kicking DanO to the wayside and getting Krivsky. I just hope that its just not talk about adding salary if we are in contention because Uncle Carl always said the right thing too but never delivered.

savafan
06-22-2006, 12:36 AM
2?

no, the answer is 3 ;)