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View Full Version : Ut-oh - Ozzie Guillen calls out former Cincinnati Enquirer writer Jay Marriotti.



Heath
06-21-2006, 03:34 PM
You wonder if Ozzie's starting to lose it a bit........



Guillen calls columnist Mariotti homosexual slur
ESPN.com news services

On Tuesday to reporters, White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen referred to Chicago Sun-Times columnist and Around the Horn contributor Jay Mariotti as a derogatory name for a homosexual.

Angry with a recent column by Mariotti critical of Guillen's handling of recently demoted relief pitcher Sean Tracey and upset with Mariotti with columns of the past, Guillen said to reporters when referring to Mariotti before Tuesday's game with the Cardinals, "What a piece of [expletive] he is, [expletive] fag."

Mariotti was covering the NBA Finals Tuesday night and was not present to hear what Guillen said.

Columnist Greg Couch of the Sun-Times wrote a column Wednesday in response, calling for commissioner Bud Selig to suspend Guillen for his use of a "hurtful homophobic" term.

Before writing the column, Couch asked Guillen for an explanation. Guillen defended his use of the term "fag" by saying this about homosexuals and the use of the word in question: "I don't have anything against those people. In my country, you call someone something like that and it is not the same as it is in this country.''

Guillen said that in his native Venezuela, that word is not a reference to a person's sexuality, but to his courage. He said he was saying that Mariotti is "not man enough to meet me and talk about [things before writing].''

Guillen also told Couch that he has gay friends, attends WNBA games, went to a Madonna concert and plans to go to the Gay Games in Chicago.

"I called that of this man [Mariotti],'' he told Couch. "I'm not trying to hurt anybody [else]."

Scott Reifert, the White Sox's vice president of communications, offered to apologize on behalf of the organization when approached by Couch.

"To anybody who was insulted or hurt by that comment ... as an organization, we'll certainly apologize," Reifert told Couch.

Ozzie and PC...not a very good match..that, or he was asking for a British slang term for a cigarette.

westofyou
06-21-2006, 03:35 PM
The Sox announcers were using him as a punching bag throughout the broadcast as well.

Heath
06-21-2006, 03:37 PM
The Sox announcers were using him as a punching bag throughout the broadcast as well.


who, Marriotti or Guillen??

Hawk doesn't like Marriotti at all.

pedro
06-21-2006, 03:37 PM
I can't stand Ozzie Gullien. he's an absolute <expletive>

westofyou
06-21-2006, 03:39 PM
who, Marriotti or Guillen??

Hawk doesn't like Marriotti at all.Not the OZ.. they worship his guile and get r done behavior.

NJReds
06-21-2006, 03:39 PM
Guillen also told Couch that he has gay friends, attends WNBA games, went to a Madonna concert and plans to go to the Gay Games in Chicago.

Good to see that he read the manual.

OnBaseMachine
06-21-2006, 03:40 PM
I can't stand Ozzie Gullien. he's an absolute <expletive>

Ditto.

westofyou
06-21-2006, 03:42 PM
Good to see that he read the manual.
If so then he's been to the Manhole Club in Boys Town too.

ochre
06-21-2006, 03:43 PM
I'm sure he meant the British usage, or "What a piece of [expletive] he is, [expletive] cigarette."

Heath
06-21-2006, 03:53 PM
I'm sure he meant the British usage, or "What a piece of [expletive] he is, [expletive] cigarette."


Whole new meaning of getting "Lit Up".....

I'm 50/50 on Ozzie - can't stand him for doing things like this, however, he tells it like it is and knows how to get the best out of his players and I like that part of him.

gonelong
06-21-2006, 03:55 PM
Guillen also told Couch that he has gay friends, attends WNBA games, went to a Madonna concert and plans to go to the Gay Games in Chicago.

I read this and checked to see if this was an Onion article.

GL

vaticanplum
06-21-2006, 04:00 PM
I'm 50/50 on Ozzie - can't stand him for doing things like this, however, he tells it like it is and knows how to get the best out of his players and I like that part of him.

I agree. Comments like this are infuriating, and undermine his reputation as a manager. He IS a good manager, but it's getting buried in soundbites. But I really respect his stuff as a manager. He knows how to pull a team together, help them communicate, get the best out of his players. I also love the way he deals with his pitchers, and our bullpen could perform a lot better in my opinion if we took a few hints from him (ie. maybe they could be below average instead of horrendous).

But the man is smart. Of all the columnists picking on him (rightfully so) at this point, he responds directly to Mariotti. There is not a more loathed man (rightfully so) in Chicago than Jay Mariotti. So to his fans, Ozzie once again comes off as the guy spouting his "true feelings" against a complete tool, and what he says can almost be ignored or even celebrated by those who already love him. Those who don't already don't, it makes no difference to him or to them.

KronoRed
06-21-2006, 04:01 PM
I guess Ozzie was mad he hadn't been in a headline story for a few days

Just more of him screaming and stomping to get some attention

Heath
06-21-2006, 04:07 PM
I read this and checked to see if this was an Onion article.

GL

Nope, and 6+ pages at Soxtalk.com is running about 75% Ozzie because of the Mariotti feud with Sox Management.

Joseph
06-21-2006, 04:16 PM
Sorry Ozzie, but here in the ole US of A when we call someone that name, we too are referring to their courage, so your argument is completely invalid.

KronoRed
06-21-2006, 04:16 PM
I read this and checked to see if this was an Onion article.

GL
The Onion has better writers

savafan
06-21-2006, 04:46 PM
If a manager had said this about a reporter 30 years ago, the rest of the reporters would have probably laughed and Mariotti would no longer be covering the White Sox today.

RedFanAlways1966
06-21-2006, 05:18 PM
Before writing the column, Couch asked Guillen for an explanation. Guillen defended his use of the term "fag" by saying this about homosexuals and the use of the word in question: "I don't have anything against those people. In my country, you call someone something like that and it is not the same as it is in this country.''

Oh, Ozzie... you are working and speaking in the USA. Not sure if a smart-guy like you knew that.

YOU SHOULD BE SUSPENDED. John Rocker? Not as vile and severe as his comments to SI, but still insensitive to a group of people in this country... the country where you are employed and where you made the comments.

If it is legal to make a left turn on red in Venezuela, that does not mean it is okay to do in the USA. Get it, Ozzie? One more thing... shut up, Ozzie, and be a bigger man than Jay Mariotti. And act like an adult.

CrackerJack
06-21-2006, 05:24 PM
Dumb jockitis. No shortage of that in this country.

He went to a WNBA game - that's funny - but can't tell if that was a serious comment or not.

I guess if you go to a Madonna concert or the "Gay Games," you're one with gay nation and can say whatever you want!

Danny Serafini
06-21-2006, 05:28 PM
Oh, Ozzie, how quickly you forget.

3773

CTA513
06-21-2006, 05:33 PM
Cant MLB fine him for some of the stuff he says?
I know the NBA fines Cuban for all the stuff he spews.

flyer85
06-21-2006, 05:38 PM
Cant MLB fine him for some of the stuff he says?
and suspend him as well. This is obviously along the same lines as Rocker and his comments.

oneupper
06-21-2006, 05:57 PM
Oh, Ozzie... you are working and speaking in the USA. Not sure if a smart-guy like you knew that.

YOU SHOULD BE SUSPENDED. John Rocker? Not as vile and severe as his comments to SI, but still insensitive to a group of people in this country... the country where you are employed and where you made the comments.

If it is legal to make a left turn on red in Venezuela, that does not mean it is okay to do in the USA. Get it, Ozzie? One more thing... shut up, Ozzie, and be a bigger man than Jay Mariotti. And act like an adult.

Ozzie a jerk. Rocker was (and probably is still) a jerk. That said, IMO baseball shouldn't suspend him for this. MLB can not and should not become the "moral police" for baseball players managers and coaches. (Rocker shouldn't have been suspended either).
This doesn't pertain to baseball (its personal), so let Mariotti sue Guillen for ''defamation of character"' or whatever, if he requires satisfaction.

It's this "blurring of the lines" that has lead to confusion in many issues that DO concern baseball, as they affect what goes on BETWEEN the lines, the most significant of which is the STERIOD issue.

Highlifeman21
06-21-2006, 06:20 PM
Oh, Ozzie, how quickly you forget.

3773


Priceless!

While I wouldn't use such language to describe him, I can't stand Jay Mariotti and am baffled why ATH continues to use him in their panel.

Mariotti said today on ATH that Guillen should be suspended. Big surprise on that opinion.

WMR
06-21-2006, 06:29 PM
If it was anyone but Marriotti, I'd have a problem with it.

(joking on the use of the word, not on my dislike of Marriotti)

Guacarock
06-21-2006, 06:33 PM
After all the trash Mariotti spews, how can he feign surprise that someone should turn around and bite him back? He is no real journalist, just another loudmouth hack and primadonna. My advice to him: Take it like a Marine. Probably asking too much.

Phhhl
06-21-2006, 07:25 PM
I'm not defending Guillen at all, but I couldn't stand Mariotti when he wrote for the Post.

Outshined_One
06-21-2006, 08:21 PM
Everyone involved in this whole situation is a jerk as far as I'm concerned. Mariotti's had an ongoing feud with Hawk Harrelson for awhile now that has managed to carry over into a weird pissing contest between Mariotti and the White Sox. Guillen pretty much needs no explanation.

The original story can be found here (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-0606210202jun21,1,4401278.story?coll=cs-home-headlines). Apparently Ozzie got really mad at Jay for advocating the removal of Dusty Baker:


"He's not going to run me out of town," Guillen said. "He can kiss my [bleep]. He'll lose his job before I lose mine. I guarantee that . . .

"I'll leave this [bleeping] town when I want to leave this town, maybe next week. Maybe 20 [bleeping] years, but I'm going to be here a little while.

"Now he wants to get Dusty out of there and put in some [bleeping] guy from the radio booth (actually television analyst and former manager Bob Brenly)."

Guillen went on to call Mariotti a derogatory name for a homosexual and "a stupid idiot."

TeamBoone
06-21-2006, 09:31 PM
IMHO, Ozzie is out of control and should officially be taken down a peg by MLB.

There's no excuse for that crap.



I'm not defending Guillen at all, but I couldn't stand Mariotti when he wrote for the Post.

Yes and no... Mariotti is a writer and can get away with it. Ozzie is a MLB manager and should not. He could have gotten his point across without being a loud mouthed, cussing jerk. It doesn't set much of an example.

edabbs44
06-21-2006, 09:41 PM
Ozzie is an idiot.

flyer85
06-21-2006, 11:33 PM
Reds ought to trade for Tracey

smith288
06-22-2006, 12:21 AM
"Stick and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me".

That saying is something we all learn as kids when dealing with adversity...

When did this country turn into a lot of wimps? What he said was stupid but its still just words.

TeamBoone
06-22-2006, 02:17 AM
"Stick and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me".

That saying is something we all learn as kids when dealing with adversity...

When did this country turn into a lot of wimps? What he said was stupid but its still just words.

I guess I look at it like this... how would I feel if he said that about me? Especially to the media.

cincinnati chili
06-22-2006, 03:04 AM
This part is pretty funny IMO, "Guillen also told Couch that he has gay friends, attends WNBA games, went to a Madonna concert."

I think the proper punishment is a fine and perhaps a brief - 1 game suspension. I realize this might escalate into a political argument and make its way onto ochre's thread.

SteelSD
06-22-2006, 03:46 AM
IMHO, Ozzie is out of control and should officially be taken down a peg by MLB.

There's no excuse for that crap.

You are, of course, correct, TB. Ozzie Guillen should be suspended a minimum of 10 games. And not just because of the severity of this infraction, but because someone needs to send a real message that Ozzie Guillen cannot continue a pattern of inappropriate and offensive behavior. It dismays me that the White Sox organization has not been able to deal with Guillen internally because it affects my opinion of that organization. And it's an organization that's allowing one of the least important members to dictate public perception. At best, that's stupid. At worst, it's an indication that Ken Williams is classless as well.

Ozzie Guillen is one of the biggest character issues MLB has ever seen. He has none. The irony is that Guillen claims that others need to behave like "men" when he's demonstrated no ability to behave as such himself. In fact, I doubt that Guillen has half a clue as to what behaving like a man really means.

RedFanAlways1966
06-22-2006, 08:51 AM
Wow... nicely said, Steel. :thumbup:

michst
06-22-2006, 09:22 AM
MLB in the past has been the moral police. They ran Marge out and suspended Rocker.

I did find his - I went to Madonna concert - hiliarious as a justification for his support of gays.

Crash Davis
06-22-2006, 10:19 AM
That's awesome. Mariotti has turned himself into a joke, and Ozzie called him on it. I don't see any reason for disciplinary action whatsoever.

Krusty
06-22-2006, 10:42 AM
And they talked about Marge Schott.

oneupper
06-22-2006, 10:50 AM
MLB in the past has been the moral police. They ran Marge out and suspended Rocker.




Yep. And that was overreaching IMO...

If anyone is going to sanction Ozzie...it should be his EMPLOYER (White Sox), not MLB.

flyer85
06-22-2006, 11:01 AM
That's awesome. Mariotti has turned himself into a joke, and Ozzie called him on it. I don't see any reason for disciplinary action whatsoever.The problem for Ozzie is that MLB set a precedent when they went after Rocker for his "insensitive statements" even though his statements may well have been "tongue-in-cheek" and done for supposed humor. Certainly if MLB does nothing it would seem there is some kind of double standard in play.

westofyou
06-22-2006, 11:03 AM
John Rocker was at the Beck concert in Atlanat last week, he had a little pony tail... alas from what I hear no one noticed him. Publically that is.

vaticanplum
06-22-2006, 11:04 AM
Ozzie officially issued an apology yesterday:

"I shouldn't have mentioned the name that was mentioned. A lot of people's feelings were hurt, and I didn't mean it that way," Guillen explained. "I apologize, but I wasn't talking about those people.

"But I'm not going to back off of Jay. If he wants to know, he should be talking to me here, right now. If he were a man, obviously he'd be here right now."
...
"The funny thing about Jay is I don't know when to believe him," Guillen added. "One week he says I am the worst man in the world and the next thing he says I am the best thing that ever happened to the Chicago White Sox organization. Two minutes later, he said how can Kenny Williams give me that job? The next time he says we need a guy like Ozzie to win the World Series. Poor him, poor him. He's ignorant."

What Ozzie doesn't seem to get here is that he's talking about two different things. He has a beef with Jay Mariotti, fine. So does just about everyone in Chicago. White I disagree with Steel that Ozzie lacks character, I do think that "classless" is an appropriate word in this case. Unlike the people of Chicago, Ozzie Guillen is in a position of power and one in which he must deal with Mariotti in his job. To air it all out through the press, when Ozzie is paid to deal with the sport of baseball, is not only stupid and tasteless but distracting and detrimental to his team and the sport. BUT he is, in my opinion, entitled to do it if he sees fit.

But that's a totally separate thing than what I see as the real issue here, which is the slur. Is Ozzie sorry that he used the word he did? Probably, in the sense that I think he really didn't understand the magnamity of the slur. But now he should. He must, in a sense, because he felt the need to issue an apology. But the apology went back to issue #1, Jay Mariotti, and failed to realy address issue #2, the slur. He's trying to turn it back to the public enemy, not, I think, because he's trying to avoid a real apology, but because he's angry and the anger is clouding the fact that Mariotti being a tool and the slur are two totally separate issues.

In that sense, I do think it would be appropriate for someone to step in and issue a warning or possibly suspend him, because he doesn't seem to understand that the real mistake he made had nothing to do with retaliation, nothing to do with Jay Mariotti. MLB is a private organization, no? If it's against their rules to issue public slurs, then they're entitled to deal with it.

TeamBoone
06-22-2006, 11:06 AM
That's awesome. Mariotti has turned himself into a joke, and Ozzie called him on it. I don't see any reason for disciplinary action whatsoever.

Agreed. But the manner in which he did it was deplorable... especially for an MLB manager.

flyer85
06-22-2006, 11:10 AM
The most offensive thing I find in the entire episode was the way he went off on the rookie pitcher. If he had an issue with the kid he should have addressed it in private instead of the very public temper tantrum on the bench. Ozzie has shown himself to be a complete jerk in how he handled the original situation and then the subsequent criticism, however, I could really care less what MLB does about it.

ochre
06-22-2006, 11:25 AM
Yep. Contrast that to Frank Robinson and how he handled pulling his catcher mid-inning.

smith288
06-22-2006, 11:50 AM
I guess I look at it like this... how would I feel if he said that about me? Especially to the media.
Then Marrioti and the Sox should address Ozzie, not us, not MLB and certainly not ACLU (which Im sure will come a runnin' if money's to be made).

vaticanplum
06-22-2006, 12:00 PM
Then Marrioti and the Sox should address Ozzie, not us, not MLB and certainly not ACLU (which Im sure will come a runnin' if money's to be made).

Not getting into a political debate, just stating a fact: the ACLU is a nonprofit organization.

westofyou
06-22-2006, 12:03 PM
Not getting into a political debate, just stating a fact: the ACLU is a nonprofit organization.
Who have represented BOTH sides of the political spectrum.

flyer85
06-22-2006, 12:03 PM
the Sox should address OzzieI agree. Ozzie is a Sox employee, if they don't have a problem with his words and deeds then so be it.

smith288
06-22-2006, 12:06 PM
You are, of course, correct, TB. Ozzie Guillen should be suspended a minimum of 10 games. And not just because of the severity of this infraction, but because someone needs to send a real message that Ozzie Guillen cannot continue a pattern of inappropriate and offensive behavior. It dismays me that the White Sox organization has not been able to deal with Guillen internally because it affects my opinion of that organization. And it's an organization that's allowing one of the least important members to dictate public perception. At best, that's stupid. At worst, it's an indication that Ken Williams is classless as well.

Ozzie Guillen is one of the biggest character issues MLB has ever seen. He has none. The irony is that Guillen claims that others need to behave like "men" when he's demonstrated no ability to behave as such himself. In fact, I doubt that Guillen has half a clue as to what behaving like a man really means.
No offense there Steel but being a "man" hardly has anything to do with using the term "fag" or not, ignoring his treatment of the rookie who he yelled at.

In my opinion, being a "man" is an entirely different thing in his culture than it is to yours or mine. Confronting people you disagree with is pretty manley (Marrioti). You disagreeing with his tactics is also manley.

My defense of Ozzie is short and won't extend more than his freedom of association and speech.

Most likely in Ozzie's mind, being homosexual is not normal, hence the term "fag" (or homo as I have heard used more often) as a label on Marrioti. To many, this goes against their sensibilities as they dont view homosexuality as abnormal so they are offended. Outrage ensues.

This is certainly a cultural and moral debate. One of which I won't delve into much more than I have.

smith288
06-22-2006, 12:06 PM
Not getting into a political debate, just stating a fact: the ACLU is a nonprofit organization.
ACLU is, but are those lawyers in that organization? ;)

westofyou
06-22-2006, 12:11 PM
ACLU is, but are those lawyers in that organization? ;)
There's a hell of a lot of them here on RZ.... makes me ponder their habit of billing hourly.

smith288
06-22-2006, 12:12 PM
There's a hell of a lot of them here on RZ.... makes me ponder their habit of billing hourly.
Im in web development and I bill hourly...

[continuing my redszoning....] :D

Redsland
06-22-2006, 12:31 PM
No offense there Steel...In my opinion, being a "man" is an entirely different thing in his culture than it is to yours or mine....This is certainly a cultural and moral debate.
No offense there, smith, but Ozzie's "culture" is immaterial.

He's speaking about an American in front of a room full of Americas who are going to report to a country full of Americans while acting as the mouthpiece for his American employer whose target consumer is Americans.

If Americans are offended by Ozzie's language, that's Ozzie's problem and no one else's.

MLB has to suspend him and the Sox need to punish him, too. The alternative is very ugly.

michst
06-22-2006, 12:34 PM
Yep. And that was overreaching IMO...

If anyone is going to sanction Ozzie...it should be his EMPLOYER (White Sox), not MLB.

Is it overreaching to compare him to Rocker or Marge?
This isn't the first controversial thing he has said.
There was the whole Arod isn't Dominican enough
There was the he would fight someone if they beaned him twice comments.
There is the Rookie pitcher incident
There was the comment comparing homosexuals to pedophiles
Then there was this incident calling someone a fag.
His apology was laughable because he said he has gay friends and went to a Madonna concert so he obviously has no problems with gays. Wait except they are like pedophiles.

He's winning so people are giving him a pass. Or people are saying - its just Ozzie being Ozzie. Just like we said its just Marge being Marge. Someone should (probably White Sox) step in and suspend/sanction him quickly.

Benihana
06-22-2006, 01:00 PM
No offense there, smith, but Ozzie's "culture" is immaterial.

He's speaking about an American in front of a room full of Americas who are going to report to a country full of Americans while acting as the mouthpiece for his American employer whose target consumer is Americans.

If Americans are offended by Ozzie's language, that's Ozzie's problem and no one else's.

MLB has to suspend him and the Sox need to punish him, too. The alternative is very ugly.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, OZZIE IS (NOW) AN AMERICAN AFTER HE BECAME A CITIZEN IN THE OFFSEASON, SO HE SHOULD NOT BE TALKING ABOUT WHAT WAS/IS ACCEPTABLE IN "HIS COUNTRY"

SteelSD
06-22-2006, 01:04 PM
No offense there Steel but being a "man" hardly has anything to do with using the term "fag" or not, ignoring his treatment of the rookie who he yelled at.

In my opinion, being a "man" is an entirely different thing in his culture than it is to yours or mine. Confronting people you disagree with is pretty manley (Marrioti). You disagreeing with his tactics is also manley.

My defense of Ozzie is short and won't extend more than his freedom of association and speech.

Most likely in Ozzie's mind, being homosexual is not normal, hence the term "fag" (or homo as I have heard used more often) as a label on Marrioti. To many, this goes against their sensibilities as they dont view homosexuality as abnormal so they are offended. Outrage ensues.

This is certainly a cultural and moral debate. One of which I won't delve into much more than I have.

I don't, at all, truly believe it is a cultural issue and I'm not basing my opinion of Ozzie Guillen on his use of a derogitory term for homosexuals. I do believe that Ozzie Guillen desperately wants to hide behind a veil of machismo to excuse away yet another of his constant temper tantrums. But in the end that's an excuse rather than behavior justification.

Confrontation is fine. No issue with it. Avoidance, in many cases, is just as childish as throwing a fit when you don't get your way. I have no issue with Guillen taking on Marriotti if he feels it's necessary. But Guillen's conduct is that of a small child and has been for quite some time.

Addressing issues is fine but the manner in which Guillen addresses them is inexcusable for an adult. The guy doesn't need sensitivity training because his behavior, while insensitive, approaches the level of sociopathic. Basically, Guillen knows what he's doing is wrong, but he doesn't possess enough conscience to care. He's an impulsive, irresponsible, unremorseful little child who- when challenged- resorts to namecalling, physical confrontation, and manipulation in an effort to deflect deflect blame for his behavior onto others. And it's unconscionable to me that Ozzie Guillen is calling Marriotti a "piece of <expletive deleted>" multiple times during yet another tirade he tried to get folks to swallow as an "apology" for offending folks who got blasted with shrapnel during his previous temper tantrum.

That's not a cultural issue. That's a personality and character issue. Stick the world's biggest "Milo" on Guillen and call it a day.

smith288
06-22-2006, 01:14 PM
No offense there, smith, but Ozzie's "culture" is immaterial.

He's speaking about an American in front of a room full of Americas who are going to report to a country full of Americans while acting as the mouthpiece for his American employer whose target consumer is Americans.

If Americans are offended by Ozzie's language, that's Ozzie's problem and no one else's.

MLB has to suspend him and the Sox need to punish him, too. The alternative is very ugly.
Would it help if I said im not offended by his words and telling you im not of his culture? :)

Actually, i have seen many cultural gaps occur like Americans in Japan playing baseball and Mexicans in America and Americans in France. People say things... I choose to ignore them. Its easier than getting all worked up about dumb people's choice of words.

pedro
06-22-2006, 01:17 PM
Imagine the uproar if he called someone a stupid catholic.

smith288
06-22-2006, 01:20 PM
Imagine the uproar if he called someone a stupid catholic.
That happens about daily on Comedy Central.

pedro
06-22-2006, 01:21 PM
That happens about daily on Comedy Central.


south park? that's not the same thing in my opnion.

smith288
06-22-2006, 01:24 PM
Neither is comparing a religion with a sexual preference.

TRF
06-22-2006, 01:27 PM
Guillen throws temper tantrums.

The White Sox just won the World Series.

The White Sox are currently kicking the crap out of their competition.

Ozzie Guillen will continue to throw temper tantrums untill they start losing with some regularity. After that happens he can throw them while standing in the unemployment line. Baseball tolerates prima dona behavior from winning managers.

That said, there is an environment of classless behavior from the GM to the manager to the announce booth in this organization. I have decided to loathe them for the forseeable future.

flyer85
06-22-2006, 01:27 PM
Imagine the uproar if he called someone a stupid catholic.couldn't he be burnt at the stake for that? :devil:

Redsland
06-22-2006, 01:29 PM
Neither is comparing a religion with a sexual preference.
Both are deeply held aspects of an individual's identity. Belittling either one is cruel and hurtful.

Plus, Ozzie's original statement was either hate speech or slander, depending on the facts of the case, so the courts might have something to say (maybe).

pedro
06-22-2006, 01:32 PM
Neither is comparing a religion with a sexual preference.


either way they are things that people shouldn't use to attempt to denigrate other people IMO.

oneupper
06-22-2006, 01:40 PM
Is it overreaching to compare him to Rocker or Marge?
This isn't the first controversial thing he has said.
There was the whole Arod isn't Dominican enough
There was the he would fight someone if they beaned him twice comments.
There is the Rookie pitcher incident
There was the comment comparing homosexuals to pedophiles
Then there was this incident calling someone a fag.
His apology was laughable because he said he has gay friends and went to a Madonna concert so he obviously has no problems with gays. Wait except they are like pedophiles.

He's winning so people are giving him a pass. Or people are saying - its just Ozzie being Ozzie. Just like we said its just Marge being Marge. Someone should (probably White Sox) step in and suspend/sanction him quickly.

I'm not quite sure what the implication is...

Is Ozzie a Jerk? Absolutely. Don't get me started on his relationship with Hugo Chavez...you have no idea how pissed off lots of people are in Venezuela with that.

Being a Jerk isn't a crime. Heck, even being a racist isn't a crime (unless you act on it).

Should MLB suspend Ozzie for being an insensitive and stupid Jerk?
I don't think so...
This particular incident has nothing to do with the teams' play...the only offended party is Marrioti (who can sue if he likes).

IMO, MLB had NO business suspending Rocker, either. They did so to appease public outrage.

If the White Sox want to fire or suspend Ozzie, I believe they are within their right...

The thing is "what's next?''. Will MLB suspend players for cheating on their wives, or liking kinky sex or publicly stating their political or religious positions to the press?

You have to draw a line somewhere.

smith288
06-22-2006, 01:43 PM
Ill just end my participation on this thread to say that:


Ozzie is indeed a moron (a not just because of the following)
His choice of words were stupid given the environment.
The words he chose aren't as "hateful" as some are making them out to be (just a personal opinion. Agree to disagree)
The white sox are winning so nothing will be done for the innapropriate use of words.

Hubba
06-22-2006, 02:22 PM
Is Jay a fag in real life?

gonelong
06-22-2006, 02:29 PM
Imagine the uproar if he called someone a stupid catholic.

That wouldn't bother me much. I am catholic, so I know more than a handful of stupid catholics.

It probably doesn't help that my world view dictates that everyone is assumed to be stupid until they can prove otherwise.

GL

flyer85
06-22-2006, 02:47 PM
Is Jay a fag in real life? or only as a sportwriter? :eek:

pedro
06-22-2006, 02:56 PM
Is Jay a fag in real life?

:rolleyes:

KronoRed
06-22-2006, 04:09 PM
There's a hell of a lot of them here on RZ.... makes me ponder their habit of billing hourly.
I'm gonna start billing per post

Heath
06-22-2006, 05:34 PM
I'm gonna start billing per post

At the rate you post, you should have acquired enough $$ to wipe out the National Debt by next Thursday.

:rolleyes: :D

Yachtzee
06-22-2006, 06:11 PM
Is Jay a fag in real life?

He's about as intelligent as a bundle of sticks. ;)

KronoRed
06-22-2006, 06:37 PM
At the rate you post, you should have acquired enough $$ to wipe out the National Debt by next Thursday.

:rolleyes: :D
Like I'd give W the money :devil:

smith288
06-22-2006, 06:41 PM
Like I'd give W the money :devil:
Technically, its Congress who needs it. Theyd just spend it though

Outshined_One
06-22-2006, 07:25 PM
The White Sox' flagship station in Chicago (The Score 670) have reported that the White Sox have sent Ozzie Guillen to "some sort of sensitivity training".

Maybe they'll teach him to put a Swear Jar in the White Sox clubhouse to raise money for charity. :D

Hubba
06-22-2006, 07:42 PM
:rolleyes:I only asked a question and I get neged for that? The reason that I asked the question was that I was wondering if he (Jey) was really a homosexual or was Ozz just trying to piss him off.:rolleyes:

Reds Fanatic
06-22-2006, 07:42 PM
Selig fined him an undisclosed amount and he does have to go to some type of sensitivity training.

dsmith421
06-22-2006, 07:54 PM
People say things... I choose to ignore them. Its easier than getting all worked up about dumb people's choice of words.

I used to agree, but then I realized that I'm a middle-class white dude who has pretty much never had to face any real bigotry or functional discrimination. As a result, I don't think it's my place to tell an African-American to "not get worked up" over someone dropping an N-bomb.

smith288
06-22-2006, 08:42 PM
I used to agree, but then I realized that I'm a middle-class white dude who has pretty much never had to face any real bigotry or functional discrimination. As a result, I don't think it's my place to tell an African-American to "not get worked up" over someone dropping an N-bomb.
Im not going to go through life with "white guilt" over stuff that I never did, either. Its worse than getting bent out of shape over words.

pedro
06-22-2006, 08:44 PM
Im not going to go through life with "white guilt" over stuff that I never did, either. Its worse than getting bent out of shape over words.

He's not saying he's got white guilt. He's saying he's grown to have a little cultural sensitivity. They aren't the same thing.

Yachtzee
06-22-2006, 10:47 PM
Selig fined him an undisclosed amount and he does have to go to some type of sensitivity training.

Hoo boy. "Sensitivity training" just makes me chuckle. I worked for a company once where everyone had to go through sensitivity training. It basically involved sitting in a room watching a video with terrible production values. The acting was so bad and the situations so ridiculous, it could have easily been mistaken for an SNL sketch.

cincinnati chili
06-22-2006, 10:54 PM
Mark Kreider has a piece on espn.com calling Ozzie a sociopath:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2494929

And by the way, I'm of the opinion that the governance of private businesses (MLB) should and can fine/suspend employees for calling people "fags." Legally, it's certainly defensible. And I don't think MLB wants to be judged as anti-gay by the public.

RFS62
06-22-2006, 11:23 PM
Mark Kreider has a piece on espn.com calling Ozzie a sociopath:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2494929

And by the way, I'm of the opinion that the governance of private businesses (MLB) should and can fine/suspend employees for calling people "fags." Legally, it's certainly defensible. And I don't think MLB wants to be judged as anti-gay by the public.


Yep, after all the flap over John Rocker, inaction on this one would be such a double standard.

westofyou
06-22-2006, 11:43 PM
It basically involved sitting in a room watching a video with terrible production values. The acting was so bad and the situations so ridiculous, it could have easily been mistaken for an SNL sketch.

Or one of those understated religious shows that used to be on in the dead hours of night back in the day before cable... they always starred Grant Goodeve.

BTW I don't have White Guilt.

I have White Awareness.

Chip R
06-22-2006, 11:45 PM
Or one of those understated religious shows that used to be on in the dead hours of night back in the day before cable... they always starred Grant Goodeve.


That's funny. All the ones I saw starred Troy McClure.

RFS62
06-22-2006, 11:50 PM
I drove by the Trinity Broadcast Network yesterday.

Yikes.

Yachtzee
06-23-2006, 12:22 AM
Or one of those understated religious shows that used to be on in the dead hours of night back in the day before cable... they always starred Grant Goodeve.


Didn't Kirk Cameron take that job?

http://www.wayofthemaster.com/

Big Klu
06-23-2006, 12:46 AM
Selig fined him an undisclosed amount and he does have to go to some type of sensitivity training.

Kent Dorfman, Faber '66
Sensitivity Trainer
Encounter Groups of Cleveland, Ohio

http://www.stephenfurst.com/gallery/pics/furst55.jpg

Crash Davis
06-23-2006, 07:46 AM
Yep, after all the flap over John Rocker, inaction on this one would be such a double standard.

No offense intended, RFS, but I've seen the Rocker comparison here several times, and I'm not sure there's much to it. If I remember correctly, Rocker's rant was a hate-infested tirade that ran the gamut across mulitiple sections of society. Whereas Ozzie's "offense" was simply a one word pejorative, one which has often been used as a common put-down regardless of sexual preference.

I think where Ozzie messed up was in not being experienced enough in English language put-downs to realize that he more properly should have referred to Mariotti as a "wanker" instead. Because technically Mariotti is, in fact, more of a wanker than the other word.

smith288
06-23-2006, 08:29 AM
He's not saying he's got white guilt. He's saying he's grown to have a little cultural sensitivity. They aren't the same thing.
Im pretty aware of other cultures. It doesnt mean I should go through life walking on glass so as to not offend the sensibilities of any possible party.

Thats all im saying

RedFanAlways1966
06-23-2006, 08:56 AM
I think where Ozzie messed up was in not being experienced enough in English language put-downs to realize that he more properly should have referred to Mariotti as a "wanker" instead. Because technically Mariotti is, in fact, more of a wanker than the other word.

With all due respect I think Ozzie would be happy to hear that he has someone believing his hogwash excuse. How long has Ozzie Guillen been "working" in the United States? Over 21 years. You think he doesn't understand the language well enough now to know exactly what he was implying when he made his hateful comments? I don't believe it. Sounds more like a childish excuse coming from a "man" who behaves like a child quite often.

Don't let the FACT that Ozzie has shown his hateful ways many of times prior to this incident distort thing either. Not just to homosexuals or Marriotti, but to anyone who does not see and do things the Ozzie-way.

For someone who doesn't seem to get the English language, he sure does have a higher level of understanding with the English cuss words. Hmmmm... imagine that. Hate and anger... that is what it is all about. And to hell with anyone he happens to offend with his hateful speech.

GAC
06-23-2006, 09:03 AM
Hey! The guy has been to Madonna concerts!..... cut him some slack. ;)

RFS62
06-23-2006, 09:06 AM
No offense intended, RFS, but I've seen the Rocker comparison here several times, and I'm not sure there's much to it. If I remember correctly, Rocker's rant was a hate-infested tirade that ran the gamut across mulitiple sections of society. Whereas Ozzie's "offense" was simply a one word pejorative, one which has often been used as a common put-down regardless of sexual preference.

I think where Ozzie messed up was in not being experienced enough in English language put-downs to realize that he more properly should have referred to Mariotti as a "wanker" instead. Because technically Mariotti is, in fact, more of a wanker than the other word.


None taken. You may be right about the language deal.

And you're certainly right about the "wanker" comment.

In the end, it's a business. And you can't have your employees running around embarrassing your organization.

As "tell it like it is" as Ozzie has always been portrayed, using language as an excuse smacks a little like a cop out to me on his part. If' he's really a stand up guy, why not just admit you made a mistake and a misjudgment instead of saying he didn't understand the meaning of the word. I really don't buy that for a minute. He's been around long enough to understand how that term is viewed in the US.

smith288
06-23-2006, 09:55 AM
None taken. You may be right about the language deal.

And you're certainly right about the "wanker" comment.

In the end, it's a business. And you can't have your employees running around embarrassing your organization.

As "tell it like it is" as Ozzie has always been portrayed, using language as an excuse smacks a little like a cop out to me on his part. If' he's really a stand up guy, why not just admit you made a mistake and a misjudgment instead of saying he didn't understand the meaning of the word. I really don't buy that for a minute. He's been around long enough to understand how that term is viewed in the US.
He knows the meaning of the word. I just dont think he realized it would cause such a stir if he used it.

He knows now and you won't ever hear him use it again. Problem corrected...but nooo. Which brings me to my next point.

"Sensitivity training"... dont get me started on that group think crap. Tell a guy he should keep his opinions to himself and follow "if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all." rule of thumb. But trying to alter a person's convictions or personal belief system to that of the general socially accepted belief system is nothing more than an attempt at brainwashing. Its my hope Guillen snoozes through that crap and i'd be in full support of him if he openly criticized it.

But that's just me and my old fashioned ways...

Hubba
06-23-2006, 11:02 AM
Oh, man...

westofyou
06-23-2006, 11:08 AM
ellipsis
Briars?

Is that an angelized version of B'rer?

Yes heaven forbid that somebody gets slammed for their color or sexual affilation. Btw when was the last time a hillbilly was jumped or dragged behind a car for liking to fish and a preferance for not wearing shoes?

Hubba
06-23-2006, 11:19 AM
Briars?

Is that an angelized version of B'rer?

Yes heaven forbid that somebody gets slammed for their color or sexual affilation. Btw when was the last time a hillbilly was jumped or dragged behind a car for liking to fish and a preferance for not wearing shoes? Did ozzie drag him behind a car or something? I must have missed that.

westofyou
06-23-2006, 11:21 AM
Did ozzie drag him behind a car or something? I must have missed that.
Nah, I don't think anyone here called anyone a hillbilly or a briar either though.

But you know who really gets it, and gets it bad.

And it's not the "Briars"

Crash Davis
06-23-2006, 11:24 AM
None taken. You may be right about the language deal.

And you're certainly right about the "wanker" comment.

In the end, it's a business. And you can't have your employees running around embarrassing your organization.

As "tell it like it is" as Ozzie has always been portrayed, using language as an excuse smacks a little like a cop out to me on his part. If' he's really a stand up guy, why not just admit you made a mistake and a misjudgment instead of saying he didn't understand the meaning of the word. I really don't buy that for a minute. He's been around long enough to understand how that term is viewed in the US.

I think what's being distorted here by the usual PC police is that Jay Mariotti's whole "body of work" is much more offensive than this personal "slur" used by Ozzie Guillen.

I realize my values may be a tad different, but calling somebody a name doesn't offend me nearly as much as a weasel who spreads ignorance far and wide whenever he has a chance.

What if Ozzie had called him a "b*tch" instead? Would that have been more accurate and/or less offensive?

butlerbulldogs
06-23-2006, 11:26 AM
Hey! The guy has been to Madonna concerts!..... cut him some slack. ;)

and he did make out w/ the other white sock player after the ws win

Hubba
06-23-2006, 11:30 AM
Nah, I don't think anyone here called anyone a hillbilly or a briar either though.

But you know who really gets it, and gets it bad.

And it's not the "Briars" They have. but thats ok with you right?

Crash Davis
06-23-2006, 11:32 AM
But you know who really gets it, and gets it bad.

I don't know. All of the feedback I see through television, print media, movies, etc. is that being a homosexual has never been "cooler." I see the homosexual lifestyle being emulated and turned trendy, but I don't see homesexuals "getting it bad" except the usual outlandish comments from the bible thumpers...and who even pays attention to them anymore?

Chip R
06-23-2006, 11:34 AM
I think if you people want to discuss your views on sexual preference further, ochre has a place for you to do it, if you get my drift.

vaticanplum
06-23-2006, 11:35 AM
I don't know. All of the feedback I see through television, print media, movies, etc. is that being a homosexual has never been "cooler." I see the homosexual lifestyle being emulated and turned trendy, but I don't see homesexuals "getting it bad" except the usual outlandish comments from the bible thumpers...and who even pays attention to them anymore?

I think you have a point in a way, and I also think that's kind of a point. The word that Ozzie used is very much a throwback term with offensive connotations. I don't hear it in the gay community much; I only hear it from, well, jocks and other men. It's the kind of word that I imagine gets thrown around in a clubhouse a lot, and in a derogatory way, and for Ozzie to bring it out in the open and use it in an unquestionably negative way (ie. it's very clear he meant it as an insult, not a term of gay endearment) is questionable at best.

Crash Davis
06-23-2006, 11:36 AM
I think if you people want to discuss your views on sexual preference further, ochre has a place for you to do it, if you get my drift.

Is it not germane to this particular baseball topic?

Chip R
06-23-2006, 11:38 AM
Is it not germane to this particular baseball topic?

It is but we start getting into politics and religion and you know those subjects are verboten here.

Crash Davis
06-23-2006, 11:39 AM
It is but we start getting into politics and religion and you know those subjects are verboten here.

Even as related to baseball and the topic at hand?

westofyou
06-23-2006, 11:43 AM
They have. but thats ok with you right?
By your criteria it should be ok with you right?


but I don't see homesexuals "getting it bad" except the usual outlandish comments from the bible thumpers...and who even pays attention to them anymore?Someone must, 2 guys got their face stomped in Portland two weeks ago.

registerthis
06-23-2006, 11:45 AM
I've never heard of someone getting pistol whipped for being straight.

Marc D
06-23-2006, 11:46 AM
What if Ozzie had called him a "b*tch" instead? Would that have been more accurate and/or less offensive?

Someone would have been offended and depending on how well organized and influential their group was we would have the same net result.

Martha Burke hasn't had any attention in a while. It would probably be here or some female dog owners association. I imagine some out of favor hollywood starlet in dire need of the pub wouldn't mind making it their new cause untill the made for TV movie script could get finished.

Chip R
06-23-2006, 11:46 AM
Even as related to baseball and the topic at hand?

Did I stutter?

Crash Davis
06-23-2006, 11:57 AM
Did I stutter?

You're a tough guy there, Chip. What a mighty big badge you have.

Go ahead and resume your normally scheduled "stats = the elixir of life vs. ex-jocks know everything" debates that take up 98% of the space here. That's a fun way to run a board.

I was very interested in WOY's and RFS62's answers to some thought-provoking questions that didn't involve the usual redszone fare. I was hoping we might color our palettes with something more exciting, but please continue the white bread and bologna with the paint-by-numbers crowd.

RFS62
06-23-2006, 12:03 PM
I think what's being distorted here by the usual PC police is that Jay Mariotti's whole "body of work" is much more offensive than this personal "slur" used by Ozzie Guillen.

I realize my values may be a tad different, but calling somebody a name doesn't offend me nearly as much as a weasel who spreads ignorance far and wide whenever he has a chance.

What if Ozzie had called him a "b*tch" instead? Would that have been more accurate and/or less offensive?


Yeah, it is interesting how different words are dealt with by the PC police.

Maybe he should have called him a "girly-man" instead?

Chip R
06-23-2006, 12:11 PM
I was very interested in WOY's and RFS62's answers to some thought-provoking questions that didn't involve the usual redszone fare. I was hoping we might color our palettes with something more exciting, but please continue the white bread and bologna with the paint-by-numbers crowd.

And you can do so. Just not here. I haven't warned anyone here yet and I haven't closed the thread. All I've done is suggested we not let this discussion turn into a political or religious one as the rules of the board state. If you don't want to follow those rules, Crash, there are plenty of other places you can discuss those topics. Ochre has created a board pretty much for those purposes.

westofyou
06-23-2006, 01:18 PM
"If someone in charge doesn't muzzle Ozzie Guillen with duct tape, inject him with a horse tranquilizer or simply order him to shut the (bleep) up his favorite expression, not mine the man is going to talk himself out of a job and shame the city and ballclub he represents," Mariotti wrote last season.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/saraceno/2006-06-22-saraceno_x.htm


During a feature on HBO's Real Sports With Bryant Gumbel last summer, Guillen said, "I like trouble."

That prompted a surprise from interviewer James Brown: "You like trouble?"

"Yes, why not?" Guillen answered. "A lot of people have their way to say stuff."

Later, the manager expanded his logic by saying, "I swear to God, you can put me in Harvard, you can put me in any college in (the) United States, and you ask me a question, I will answer. But you put Bill Gates in Caracas, Venezuela, and he will s- his pants. ..."

smith288
06-23-2006, 01:22 PM
Yeah, it is interesting how different words are dealt with by the PC police.

Maybe he should have called him a "girly-man" instead?

Arnold did and Arnold never backed down. Perhaps Guillen could learn a few things from the Governator in how to respond to sissified men who dont know what they are talking about? :D

Big Klu
06-23-2006, 01:25 PM
And we thought Jose Guillen was a loose cannon! :D

smith288
06-23-2006, 01:30 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/saraceno/2006-06-22-saraceno_x.htm
Im not getting your point with those quotes. Nothing offensive in there in my opinion.

And Bill Gates would crap his pants if he went ANYWHERE not in the Northwest. (just a joke...)

Besides Marrioti trying his best to silence Ozzie which is probably some of the gasoline he was pouring on his fire against him.

Jason Stark was on Mike and Mike this morning and basically said he didnt blame Ozzie for his outrage against Marrioti because Marrioti isn't like an old school journalist who faces his subject he slammed the day before. No, Marrioti sits there all high and mighty and spreads turd, posing as news/opinion, all over a piece of paper and Ozzie has no way to respond (in the normal Ozzie way). So Ozzie did what he thought (right or wrong) was best in firing back at Marriori and his "sexual orientation" of which Ozzie equates as a negative thing.

Sounds to me like those two guys could use a nice wrastlin match to see who is manlier.

westofyou
06-23-2006, 01:32 PM
So Ozzie did what he thought (right or wrong) was best in firing back at Marriori and his "sexual orientation" of which Ozzie equates as a negative thing.Too bad Ozzie works for the White Sox and Baseball then, maybe he should just be a contractor?

You shoot your gun (Mouth) off at work then somebody is likely to complain, even if half the office thinks he's right.

Hubba
06-23-2006, 01:41 PM
Im not getting your point with those quotes. Nothing offensive in there in my opinion.

And Bill Gates would crap his pants if he went ANYWHERE not in the Northwest. (just a joke...)

Besides Marrioti trying his best to silence Ozzie which is probably some of the gasoline he was pouring on his fire against him.

Jason Stark was on Mike and Mike this morning and basically said he didnt blame Ozzie for his outrage against Marrioti because Marrioti isn't like an old school journalist who faces his subject he slammed the day before. No, Marrioti sits there all high and mighty and spreads turd, posing as news/opinion, all over a piece of paper and Ozzie has no way to respond (in the normal Ozzie way). So Ozzie did what he thought (right or wrong) was best in firing back at Marriori and his "sexual orientation" of which Ozzie equates as a negative thing.

Sounds to me like those two guys could use a nice wrastlin match to see who is manlier.No No they might enjoy that too much ;)

westofyou
06-23-2006, 01:45 PM
No No they might enjoy that too much ;)
They could go crawdaddin' or huntin' to eh?

smith288
06-23-2006, 01:57 PM
Too bad Ozzie works for the White Sox and Baseball then, maybe he should just be a contractor?

You shoot your gun (Mouth) off at work then somebody is likely to complain, even if half the office thinks he's right.
I agree with you in that aspect. I just hate what I believe to be this phoney balogoney outrage. Somebody used a word that negatively describes a lifestyle "GAASP!" all hands on deck!! Force that person into "sensitivity training!" FINE HIM! Lower him to murderer/rapist-like levels of sub-human species!

I dont care for it. White Sox should fine him or whatever but the media is a bunch os girly men if you ask me. Fine me for using that insensitive selection of words.

vaticanplum
06-23-2006, 02:02 PM
There are some comments here that I think are getting really out-of-line and offensive on any level. I'm all for debate as it relates to the baseball part of this equation, but one reason I enjoy this board is because the separate political forum weeds out a lot of blanket offensive statements (which we're at perfect liberty to debate, just over there). This is the first thread I've seen in my time here that I feel is really straddling that line.

Hubba
06-23-2006, 02:23 PM
They could go crawdaddin' or huntin' to eh?Crawdaddin might be fun. wanta go.

dsmith421
06-23-2006, 02:51 PM
Im not going to go through life with "white guilt" over stuff that I never did, either. Its worse than getting bent out of shape over words.

It's not white guilt, it's basic respect for others.

What some here see as problems caused by the "PC police" I see as problems that could be caused by people acting with a little common courtesy.

Not saying "fag", "spic" or whatever other racial/ethic/homophobic slur is not "walking on glass" or being oversensitive. There is a huge difference, and arguing that they are the same thing is completely disingenuous.

RedFanAlways1966
06-23-2006, 03:05 PM
It's not white guilt, it's basic respect for others.

What some here see as problems caused by the "PC police" I see as problems that could be caused by people acting with a little common courtesy.

Not saying "fag", "spic" or whatever other racial/ethic/homophobic slur is not "walking on glass" or being oversensitive. There is a huge difference, and arguing that they are the same thing is completely disingenuous.

Courtesy and respect... two English words that Ozzie probably does not understand!

M2
06-23-2006, 04:10 PM
I'll bet there's a decent chunk of people (perhaps even a majority) for whom the word "fag" has nothing to do with being gay, at least not in their usage of it. Yeah, I know that's the etymology, but it's interchangeable with wuss or yellow-belied in the vernacular.

I'd even guess that a lot of gays use it that way. I know it's used in gay circles to bust on someone for being a stereotypical homosexual, kind of like "queen."

So I think the whole sensitivity training part of this is silly. I sincerely doubt Guillen had homosexuality on is mind when he made his comments or that his comments reflect his attitude toward homosexuals.

He could stand to be use his brain before he speaks, but that's another matter.

zombie-a-go-go
06-23-2006, 04:21 PM
Mind your Rule Threes and Fours, or I'll shut this thread down, regardless of protestations and/or derisive ham-and-egger commentary from some of you cats.

Neener.

pedro
06-23-2006, 04:22 PM
I'll bet there's a decent chunk of people (perhaps even a majority) for whom the word "fag" has nothing to do with being gay, at least not in their usage of it. Yeah, I know that's the etymology, but it's interchangeable with wuss or yellow-belied in the vernacular.

I'd even guess that a lot of gays use it that way. I know it's used in gay circles to bust on someone for being a stereotypical homosexual, kind of like "queen."

So I think the whole sensitivity training part of this is silly. I sincerely doubt Guillen had homosexuality on is mind when he made his comments or that his comments reflect his attitude toward homosexuals.

He could stand to be use his brain before he speaks, but that's another matter.

I think there is a good bit of truth in that.

redsrule2500
06-23-2006, 04:28 PM
The reaction seems to be a bit out of line, calm down.

smith288
06-23-2006, 05:27 PM
I'll bet there's a decent chunk of people (perhaps even a majority) for whom the word "fag" has nothing to do with being gay, at least not in their usage of it. Yeah, I know that's the etymology, but it's interchangeable with wuss or yellow-belied in the vernacular.

I'd even guess that a lot of gays use it that way. I know it's used in gay circles to bust on someone for being a stereotypical homosexual, kind of like "queen."

So I think the whole sensitivity training part of this is silly. I sincerely doubt Guillen had homosexuality on is mind when he made his comments or that his comments reflect his attitude toward homosexuals.

He could stand to be use his brain before he speaks, but that's another matter.
That's the type of reasoned response I was hoping for. Not too far to one angle or to the other.

A good bit of good judgement from both Guillen and those who were "outraged" at his remarks would go a long way.

Crash Davis
06-23-2006, 06:07 PM
Jason Stark was on Mike and Mike this morning and basically said he didnt blame Ozzie for his outrage against Marrioti because Marrioti isn't like an old school journalist who faces his subject he slammed the day before. No, Marrioti sits there all high and mighty and spreads turd, posing as news/opinion, all over a piece of paper and Ozzie has no way to respond (in the normal Ozzie way). So Ozzie did what he thought (right or wrong) was best in firing back at Marriori and his "sexual orientation" of which Ozzie equates as a negative thing.


http://www.jaythejoke.com/blog.html

registerthis
06-23-2006, 06:08 PM
Ochre has created a board pretty much for those purposes.

Yup, and it's great--I can vouch for it. You just have to duck the occasionally thrown Bible. :D

oneupper
06-24-2006, 08:41 PM
I'll bet there's a decent chunk of people (perhaps even a majority) for whom the word "fag" has nothing to do with being gay, at least not in their usage of it. Yeah, I know that's the etymology, but it's interchangeable with wuss or yellow-belied in the vernacular.

I'd even guess that a lot of gays use it that way. I know it's used in gay circles to bust on someone for being a stereotypical homosexual, kind of like "queen."

So I think the whole sensitivity training part of this is silly. I sincerely doubt Guillen had homosexuality on is mind when he made his comments or that his comments reflect his attitude toward homosexuals.

He could stand to be use his brain before he speaks, but that's another matter.


Bingo!

You hit it on the nail, M2. The equivalent to ''fag'' in spanish is '"marico".
Marico is one of Ozzie's favorite words (his other favorites are also cuss words).

While marico ''means'' fag...it is also a very nasty way to say ''wuss''.
"No seas marico'' (Don't be a fag) is a something you actually say to a friend who is trying to chicken out of something. (It can also mean...''you're kidding me'').

While referring to a third person who is cowardly, someone will commonly say ''es un marico'' (he's a fag)...this normally has no real connection to that person's sexual preference (unless of course, he happens to be a homosexual).

redsfanmia
06-24-2006, 09:09 PM
Too bad Ozzie works for the White Sox and Baseball then, maybe he should just be a contractor?

You shoot your gun (Mouth) off at work then somebody is likely to complain, even if half the office thinks he's right.


Have you ever been around baseball players or atheletes in general? They are foul mouthed, sex crazed, homophobic, and very very crass.

westofyou
06-24-2006, 09:38 PM
Have you ever been around baseball players or atheletes in general? They are foul mouthed, sex crazed, homophobic, and very very crass.
No, I live in a hole.:rolleyes:

redsfanmia
06-24-2006, 09:55 PM
No, I live in a hole.:rolleyes:

Thats what I thought.

westofyou
06-24-2006, 09:59 PM
Thats what I thought.
Seriously though, Ozzie isn't a jock anymore.

He's in management, time to act like it.

redsfanmia
06-24-2006, 10:02 PM
Seriously though, Ozzie isn't a jock anymore.

He's in management, time to act like it.
I agree but its the take the boy out of the hood but cant take the hood out of the boy.

pedro
06-24-2006, 11:37 PM
I agree but its the take the boy out of the hood but cant take the hood out of the boy.


Then the boy will talk himself out of a job and it won't be anyones fault but his own.

TMBS, I woudn't be surprised to see Ozzie quit after this year honestly.

Reds4Life
06-24-2006, 11:43 PM
Ozzie pretty much walks on water in Chicago right now, I don't think he'll be losing his job over this anytime soon. Especially since many in the White Sox organization hate Jay Marriotti with a passion.

Reds Fanatic
06-24-2006, 11:44 PM
Sounds like the White Sox front office is getting tired of Guillen's act.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2499675


This has not been a good week for Ozzie Guillen.

In the past three days, the White Sox manager has been fined, suspended and, most recently, made headlines for his apparent refusal to attend sensitivity training, as ordered to by commissioner Bud Selig for his use of a derogatory term aimed at a newspaper columnist.

If Guillen doesn't start exercising more restraint, general manager Ken Williams intimated that Guillen's antics could also cost Guillen his job.

"The simple fact is we have seen this movie before," Williams told ESPN in his first public remarks on the situation. "If it continues on, the likelihood [increases] that … maybe one day I'll have to walk into the office and deliver some bad news and announce a new manager. That's just the reality of the situation."

On Thursday, Guillen was suspended for one game and fined an undisclosed amount of money for pitcher David Riske throwing intentionally at St. Louis' Chris Duncan.

Also Thursday, Guillen was fined an undisclosed amount of money and ordered to undergo sensitivity training for a profanity-laced tirade against Chicago Sun-Times columnist Jay Mariotti in which Guillen called Mariotti a number of names, including a derogatory term that is often used to describe someone's sexual orientation.

On Friday, Guillen ruffled more feathers when he said he did not actually expect to attend the sensitivity training class.

"I don't think I'll be going, I don't think that'll happen," Guillen told ESPNdeportes.com in an interview at U.S. Cellular Field. The interview was conducted in Spanish.

"I think the commissioner ordered that in order to calm things down, but, obviously, to attend one of those, I'll have to take English lessons first," he added. "I'll do what I have to do, at least when I have time, but I don't think I'll take those sensitivity lessons."

A few minutes after leaving the interview room, Guillen said through a team spokesman that he would undergo the training.

"We are trying to get him to understand that if he puts himself in that position it will be to me one of the most unfortunate sports happenings in a long time," Williams said. "We need people like Ozzie Guillen out there to kind of give a little bit of color and a little bit of flavor to the game."

KronoRed
06-25-2006, 12:04 AM
If they fire him I hope the Cubs pick him up

Match made in heaven ;)

Reds4Life
06-25-2006, 12:16 AM
Sounds like the White Sox front office is getting tired of Guillen's act.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2499675

Jerry Reinsdorf isn't going to let Williams fire Ozzie. Remember when he fired Phil Jackson from the Bulls? This would be a repeat of that.

Reinsdorf had Marriotti removed as a broadcaster on the White Sox flagship radio station, that should tell you something.

The chances Ozzie is fired over this = 0.

LINEDRIVER
06-25-2006, 12:24 AM
If I'm the Commissioner and I continue to find that Guillen is running his mouth about the ordered participation in the sensitivity program, I would then release a statement along the lines of.......

As the Commissioner, I'm not going to allow Ozzie Guillen to show me up. Mr. Guillen seems to think that he's bigger than the game and the Commisssioner's Office. Therefore, Mr. Guillen will be suspended effective immediately and he will remain suspended without pay until he completes the sensitivity training program. The suspension will also prohibit Ozzie Guillen from managing the 2006 American League All-Star team.

cincinnati chili
06-25-2006, 01:10 AM
In the long run, much like the Univ. of Cincinnati is better without Huggins, the White Sox might be better without Ozzie. Winning is great, but unless this guy gets some help and show some actual remorse, he's going to put a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. Not everyone wants to get behind this type of guy, even if he wins.

cincinnati chili
06-25-2006, 01:21 AM
I'll bet there's a decent chunk of people (perhaps even a majority) for whom the word "fag" has nothing to do with being gay, at least not in their usage of it. Yeah, I know that's the etymology, but it's interchangeable with wuss or yellow-belied in the vernacular.

I'd even guess that a lot of gays use it that way. I know it's used in gay circles to bust on someone for being a stereotypical homosexual, kind of like "queen."

So I think the whole sensitivity training part of this is silly. I sincerely doubt Guillen had homosexuality on is mind when he made his comments or that his comments reflect his attitude toward homosexuals.

He could stand to be use his brain before he speaks, but that's another matter.

Disagree. He should be forced to undergo the sensitivity training, and he should be thankful for not being suspended. Regardless of intent. These epithets are strict liability offenses.

There was a time when a lot of white people didn't think that the 'n' word necessarily meant they hated black people. Maybe some still feel that way. But we can't tolerate that. Nor can we tolerate this. Don't mean to be a hypocrite. I used 'fag' on the playground for years as an adolescent. Fortunately, I got my 'sensitivity training' from enlightened people in high school, college, and members of my family before I said something stupid in my professional life.

Better late than never for Ozzie.

Crash Davis
06-25-2006, 04:41 AM
Disagree. He should be forced to undergo the sensitivity training, and he should be thankful for not being suspended. Regardless of intent. These epithets are strict liability offenses.

There was a time when a lot of white people didn't think that the 'n' word necessarily meant they hated black people. Maybe some still feel that way. But we can't tolerate that. Nor can we tolerate this. Don't mean to be a hypocrite. I used 'fag' on the playground for years as an adolescent. Fortunately, I got my 'sensitivity training' from enlightened people in high school, college, and members of my family before I said something stupid in my professional life.

Better late than never for Ozzie.

Right, but we keep comparing every minority group to blacks when there isn't much of a comparison. Have gays been discriminated against in America? Yes. Have gays been the object of slur words? Absolutely. So have just about any other group, including overweight people, stupid people, immigrants, etc.

However, and this is a big however, gays haven't been enslaved as a people in America. They haven't been disenfranchised as a group. What's the average income of a homosexual compared to that of a black person? I realize every minority group wants to paint themselves as victims on par with blacks in American history. Frankly, it's an insult to blacks.

We've turned our nation into a bunch of whiners and busybodies. So a baseball manager used a slang word to insult a terrible "journalist." Big deal. It's been blown so far out of proportion.

smith288
06-25-2006, 10:27 AM
Interesting take on early "sensitivity training" seminars in 1969

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5300142475723291102&q=sensitivity+training

Yachtzee
06-25-2006, 10:55 AM
Interesting take on early "sensitivity training" seminars in 1969

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5300142475723291102&q=sensitivity+training

A filmstrip!

"If the Germans had used the same principle during World War II, there would be no such program as 'Hogan's Heroes' on television." :lol:

westofyou
06-25-2006, 11:53 AM
We've turned our nation into a bunch of whiners and busybodies. And the gay marriage bill is a direct result of that too. Right? ;)

Reds4Life
06-25-2006, 12:42 PM
This was in todays newspaper from Marriotti, and some say this guy doesn't like to stir the pot? :rolleyes:

Marriotti is a cry baby.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay25.html

Hubba
06-25-2006, 01:57 PM
:thumbup:
And the gay marriage bill is a direct result of that too. Right? ;)

WVRed
06-25-2006, 02:19 PM
Speaking of John Rocker.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2499926


Ozzie Guillen was ordered to attend sensitivity training for a homophobic slur he made about Chicago Sun-Times columnist Jay Mariotti. According to John Rocker, Guillen won't get anything out of it.

"This is a free country. If he wants to use a lewd term, he should be able to use a lewd term. Can't you use a lewd term in America if you want?"
John Rocker on Ozzie Guillen

When Rocker was ordered to attend similar training after the former Braves reliever made offensive remarks in a Sports Illustrated story published in 1999, he left shortly after showing up, he told the Chicago Tribune.

"The guy told me when I got there I had to show up to make it look good for people, so after about 15 minutes I left and walked right out of the room and it satisfied the powers that be," Rocker told the newspaper.

Rocker was a teammate of Guillen's with the Atlanta Braves in 1998-99 and said he considers Guillen a friend. He defended Guillen's right to speak his mind.

"This is a free country. If he wants to use a lewd term, he should be able to use a lewd term," Rocker told the newspaper. "Can't you use a lewd term in America if you want?"

Guillen also was fined an undisclosed amount of money for his profanity-laced tirade against Mariotti.

On Friday, Guillen ruffled more feathers when he said he did not actually expect to attend the sensitivity training class.

"I don't think I'll be going, I don't think that'll happen," Guillen told ESPNdeportes.com in an interview at U.S. Cellular Field. The interview was conducted in Spanish.

"I think the commissioner ordered that in order to calm things down, but, obviously, to attend one of those, I'll have to take English lessons first," he added. "I'll do what I have to do, at least when I have time, but I don't think I'll take those sensitivity lessons."

A few minutes after leaving the interview room, Guillen said through a team spokesman that he would undergo the training.

Rocker was banned from baseball until May 1 by commissioner Bud Selig, who also imposed a $20,000 fine and ordered Rocker to attend sensitivity training for the remarks he made to Sports Illustrated, but an arbitrator reduced the suspension to the first two weeks of the season, cut the fine to $500 and allowed Rocker to report to spring training on March 2.

In the SI article, John Rocker said he would never play for a New York team because he didn't want to ride a train "next to some queer with AIDS". He also bashed immigrants, saying "How the hell did they get in this country?" He also called a black teammate a "fat monkey," spit on a toll machine and mocked Asian women.

"It was a farce, a way for the scared little man, Bud Selig, to get people off his [backside]," Rocker, speaking to the Tribune, said of the sensitivity training.

He also told the newspaper that he didn't pay any of the fine levied against him by Selig. Rocker was fined $20,000 for his comments, but that was reduced to $500 after appeal.

"I never paid a cent, a lot of players never pay a cent," Rocker told the newspaper. "It's just a front to look good and the way Selig cowers to pressure."

Information from The Associated Press was used in this

RedFanAlways1966
06-25-2006, 02:43 PM
"This is a free country. If he wants to use a lewd term, he should be able to use a lewd term," Rocker told the newspaper. "Can't you use a lewd term in America if you want?"

Legally, yes. To keep your employment, no. And both are that way for great reasons.

But what do we expect from a class-act like John Rocker and a class-act like ESPN (the one who decided to interview him and print it)?

M2
06-25-2006, 02:52 PM
Disagree. He should be forced to undergo the sensitivity training, and he should be thankful for not being suspended. Regardless of intent. These epithets are strict liability offenses.

There was a time when a lot of white people didn't think that the 'n' word necessarily meant they hated black people. Maybe some still feel that way. But we can't tolerate that. Nor can we tolerate this. Don't mean to be a hypocrite. I used 'fag' on the playground for years as an adolescent. Fortunately, I got my 'sensitivity training' from enlightened people in high school, college, and members of my family before I said something stupid in my professional life.

Better late than never for Ozzie.

I don't think there was ever a time when white folks didn't think the 'n' word was a derisive bash against black people. It's not something you'd use in any other context.

I fully agree with WOY that Ozzie's management and needs to start acting like it, but rather than sensitivity training I think he just needs to be told to filter himself or he'll need to find employment elsewhere.

cincinnati chili
06-25-2006, 03:33 PM
WVRed's posting from John Rocker is very interesting:

In the SI article, John Rocker said he would never play for a New York team because he didn't want to ride a train "next to some queer with AIDS". He also bashed immigrants, saying "How the hell did they get in this country?" He also called a black teammate a "fat monkey," spit on a toll machine and mocked Asian women.

"It was a farce, a way for the scared little man, Bud Selig, to get people off his [backside]," Rocker, speaking to the Tribune, said of the sensitivity training.

He also told the newspaper that he didn't pay any of the fine levied against him by Selig. Rocker was fined $20,000 for his comments, but that was reduced to $500 after appeal.

"I never paid a cent, a lot of players never pay a cent," Rocker told the newspaper. "It's just a front to look good and the way Selig cowers to pressure."

KronoRed
06-25-2006, 04:08 PM
That kind of chatter will help John get back to the big leagues ;)

Reds Nd2
06-25-2006, 04:39 PM
In the SI article, John Rocker said he would never play for a New York team...

So John, how's that stint with the Long Island Ducks going?

smith288
06-25-2006, 06:12 PM
I dunno about his baseball career but he is a riot on Pro's vs Joe's.