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Ltlabner
06-21-2006, 04:28 PM
Since the Reds bull-pen has become as usefull as a trap-door in a canoe, I thought it would be ineresting to hear your thoughts on assembling a "bull pen of your dreams".

I'd be interested in knowing...

1) The types of pitchers you'd desire. For example, all 95mph heat throwers, all closer types, all junk ball pitchers, all young and hungry, all old and "scrapy", etc etc. What is your strategy for the "perfect bullpen"?

2) If you could magically assemble a bullpen out of any current pitcher in MLB, who would make your bullpen and why?

3) If you could assemble a bullpen out of any pitchers from MLB's history, who would be on your dream team bull-pen?

Feel free to answer any or all questions. Fabulous cash and prizes have been chosen especially for the winner of todays topic.

Handofdeath
06-21-2006, 04:39 PM
Mariano Rivera, the Nasty Boys, and Jesse Orosco.

Redhook
06-21-2006, 04:40 PM
1) I'll take a mixture of everything with both a left-handed (Wagner type) and right-handed (Dibble type) flamethrower. Great bullpens usually have atleast one guy that can bring the heat.

2) Thinking about assembling a bullpen out of current players kind of upsets me because if we had a great bullpen we'd have a legit shot at the world series this year. Unfortunately, our pen sucks and shows absolutely no signs of getting better.

3) To start, I'll take the 1990 Cincinnati Reds Nasty Boys (Myers, Dibble, and Charlton). They were so good I bet they could overcome having guys like White, Burns, and Weathers in the same pen. Any lead going into the 8th was safe, it was great. If I could throw a few more to those 3 I'd take Rivera, Gagne, Hoffman, and Sutter. Five righties and 2 lefties.

I'll take the prize behind door #3 please. :D

schroomytunes
06-21-2006, 04:59 PM
I'd have to say if I were to assemble it out of today's players I would go with, assuming we need 7:
1)Tom Gordon-set-up(R)
2)Brandon McCarthy-(R)-young long relief guy
3)John Papelbon-closer (R)
4)JJ Putz-middle inning heat (R)
5)Huston Street-middle inning (R)
6)Rheal Cormier-(L) good veteran lefty
7)Mike Stanton-(L) another veteran lefty, but with post season exp, good leader for youngsters.

As you can see I go mostly with youth but mix in veterans to mesh them.

I still take the 1990 Reds bullpen, for my all time bullpen:beerme:

CTA513
06-21-2006, 05:24 PM
In no certain order:

Mariano Rivera (R)
Jonathan Papelbon (R)
Tom Gordon (R)
Joe Nathan (R)
Bobby Jenks (R)
Scot Shields (R)
Billy Wagner (L)
Brian Fuentes (L)
B.J. Ryan (L)


I dont know how many guys you would have in the bullpen, but thats 9 right there.
I could drop it down to 7 or 8 if I would need to.

Highlifeman21
06-21-2006, 06:07 PM
Using players only from 2006:

M. Rivera - NYY
J. Papelbon - BOS
H. Street - OAK
F. Rodriguez - LAA
B. Jenks - CWS
C. Cordero - WAS
E. Gagne - LAD

I'd take those 7 anyday of the week and let each one come in to act like a closer for their given inning.

If I had to assign them roles, it would be as follows:

CL - Rivera
SU - Gagne

MR - Jenks
MR - Rodriguez
MR - Street
MR - Cordero

LR - Papelbon

Either way, this is a scary bullpen

Sea Ray
06-21-2006, 07:32 PM
Using players only from 2006:

M. Rivera - NYY
J. Papelbon - BOS
H. Street - OAK
F. Rodriguez - LAA
B. Jenks - CWS
C. Cordero - WAS
E. Gagne - LAD

I'd take those 7 anyday of the week and let each one come in to act like a closer for their given inning.


Either way, this is a scary bullpen

You've got 7 RH closers in that pen. That doesn't work. You need some long relievers and some LH specialists. The best LH specialist I've seen this year is Jimmy Walker of Detroit.

I think I'd like to have Rivera and Billy Wagner as a R/L closer tandem. Brandon McCarthy as the long guy. Walker as my lefty specialist. I'd also like a crafty veteran who throws some sinkers and can me some DPs like Bob Wickman. Throw in another veteran, Scot Shields and that'll be my pen. I don't like 12 man staffs, so I'll go with a 6 man bullpen

Highlifeman21
06-21-2006, 11:15 PM
You've got 7 RH closers in that pen. That doesn't work. You need some long relievers and some LH specialists. The best LH specialist I've seen this year is Jimmy Walker of Detroit.

I think I'd like to have Rivera and Billy Wagner as a R/L closer tandem. Brandon McCarthy as the long guy. Walker as my lefty specialist. I'd also like a crafty veteran who throws some sinkers and can me some DPs like Bob Wickman. Throw in another veteran, Scot Shields and that'll be my pen. I don't like 12 man staffs, so I'll go with a 6 man bullpen

I thought long and hard about that list, and I'd take those 7 RH. Wagner has never impressed me being a 2 pitch guy, and Walker is ok but I don't like the idea of a specialist to get 1 guy out. I've never really liked the idea. Call me the anti-Tony LaRussa.

My question is why do you need long relievers? If your rotation is strong enough, you'd never need a reliever to go more than 2 innings, and everyone on my list of 7 can go 2 IP.

RedEye
06-22-2006, 12:34 AM
Bullpen arms these days seem to burn out quickly with a few obvious exceptions like John Franco, Mariano Rivera, and Bruce Sutter. That's why my Dream Team is based on current pitchers that I think bring it the best right now. I'm assuming a 7-man group since that seems to be the norm on this thread. Keep in mind that this list is based on those pitchers who are blowing things up right now or at least somewhere close to right now...

Long relief/mop up guy: Byung-Hyun Kim (R)

I know, I know, he lost it in the playoffs. Still, it's good to have situational guy with a herky jerky delivery, and this guy astounds me every I see him. He must be damn flexible to manage that contortion 100 times a week.

Middle reliever: Rafael Soriano, Mariners (R)

This guy is just sick. He blows people away on a nightly basis and if he just had a little more control (and a little more durability) he'd warrant a more glamorous role in my bullpen.

Middle reliever: Scott Linebrink, Padres (R)

A shutdown 8th inning monster that the Reds should try to imitate with Todd Coffey. He's a great example of why a bullpen ace doesn't have to be a closer.

Middle reliever: BJ Ryan, Blue Jays (L)

He's got insane heat from the left side, always a rare commodity. He used to be a set-up man and I think it's a natural position for him. He could close in a pinch too, don't you think?

Situational lefty: Arthur Rhodes, Phillies (L)

He's been a bit off this year, but this guy is just downright mean. He just looks badass when he steps on the rubber, and that's what I want when my team needs an out against a tough lefty. If he doesn't have his good stuff, I just order him to throw 95 MPH heat right at somebody. We've got enough depth in this bullpen to replace him for a few games, right? And I'm sure we'd win the ensuing brawl...

Primary set-up man: Scot Shields, Angels (R)

Could be a closer for at least half the teams in MLB. Maybe even the Angels as he's more consistent than K-Rod these days.

Closer: Jonathan Papelbon, Red Sox (R)

Young, talented and dialed in: that's the best combo for a position rife with injuries, player turnover, and emotional meltdowns. I want my closer to think he's invinceable.... and if we're lucky, he'll make it through the World Series thinking the same thing.

Now that I look at my list, I think I'd be better served with another lefty. I'm too tired to go back and fix it now, but I'm pretty sure I'd win a lot of games with these players in these roles. Heck, I'd just need 1 1/2 competent starters, and the division would be mine!

Sea Ray
06-22-2006, 12:41 AM
I thought long and hard about that list, and I'd take those 7 RH. Wagner has never impressed me being a 2 pitch guy, and Walker is ok but I don't like the idea of a specialist to get 1 guy out. I've never really liked the idea. Call me the anti-Tony LaRussa.

My question is why do you need long relievers? If your rotation is strong enough, you'd never need a reliever to go more than 2 innings, and everyone on my list of 7 can go 2 IP.

What kind of world are you living in that says your starters will always go 7 innings? Maybe in the 1920s, but not in the 21st century. Chances are even on the best of staffs, a team will not go a week with every starter going at least 7 innings. In the real world you need long relievers. There will also be extra inning games. If we were to expand this discussion to include past players, I'd throw in a rubber arm like Rick Mahler or Pedro Borbon or even Scott Sullivan.

westofyou
06-22-2006, 12:44 AM
1967 - Ted Abernathy
1990 - Rob Dibble
1973 - Pedro Borbon
1987 - Frank Williams
1990 - Randy Meyers

redsupport
06-22-2006, 12:48 AM
1961 Bill Henry
1964 Bill McCool

billy117
06-22-2006, 02:27 AM
Since the Reds bull-pen has become as usefull as a trap-door in a canoe, I thought it would be ineresting to hear your thoughts on assembling a "bull pen of your dreams".

I'd be interested in knowing...

1) The types of pitchers you'd desire. For example, all 95mph heat throwers, all closer types, all junk ball pitchers, all young and hungry, all old and "scrapy", etc etc. What is your strategy for the "perfect bullpen"?

2) If you could magically assemble a bullpen out of any current pitcher in MLB, who would make your bullpen and why?

3) If you could assemble a bullpen out of any pitchers from MLB's history, who would be on your dream team bull-pen?

Feel free to answer any or all questions. Fabulous cash and prizes have been chosen especially for the winner of todays topic.

How come you don't ever answer any of your questions? Not just in this thread but in all the "question" threads you start. Not trying to be a jerk and I suppose it really doesn't matter but that's what I find myself pondering most when I read your threads.

Ltlabner
06-22-2006, 09:24 AM
Because when I answer a thread, there really isn't anything left to say......

Ok, kidding there. Mostly, I'm interested in what other people think, which is why I asked the questions in the first place. Hopefully a nice "conversation" ensues with lots of different trains of thought, experiences, etc. People may interpret my question differently than I intended it, so I don't want to guide the topic in any direction other than the basic question.

Also, my historical knowledge of baseball isn't as good as it should be. So when I ask a question that involves historical players I woln't answer because I'm not informed enough to make a serrious controbution.

Sometimes I don't know the answer to the question when I post it so I don't answer it until later on so I have a chance to think about it.

zombie-a-go-go
06-22-2006, 09:28 AM
Hell, just give me the Bizarrro-World version of the 2006 Reds bullpen. They'd be impossible to beat.

billy117
06-22-2006, 02:46 PM
Because when I answer a thread, there really isn't anything left to say......

Ok, kidding there. Mostly, I'm interested in what other people think, which is why I asked the questions in the first place. Hopefully a nice "conversation" ensues with lots of different trains of thought, experiences, etc. People may interpret my question differently than I intended it, so I don't want to guide the topic in any direction other than the basic question.

Also, my historical knowledge of baseball isn't as good as it should be. So when I ask a question that involves historical players I woln't answer because I'm not informed enough to make a serrious controbution.

Sometimes I don't know the answer to the question when I post it so I don't answer it until later on so I have a chance to think about it.
This is also why I rarely answer any of these type questions so I completely understand where you are coming from on this point.

Mario-Rijo
06-22-2006, 07:31 PM
I think some may be forgetting that LH that the White Sox have. He came in throwing 97 and smooth too. Plus he has to be cheap.

In fact let me put together my all cheap bullpen for the Reds this season.


Long Relief-NYM- Aaron Heilman 359K 4.50 ERA
LH Specialist- Twins- Dennis Reyes LH BAA.160
RH Middle Relief- Fla.- Joe Borowski 327K 3.71 ERA
RH Middle Relief- NYM- Duaner Sanchez 399K 2.43 ERA
LH MR/Set-Up- CWS- Matt Thornton 355K 4.30 ERA
RH Set-Up- Reds- Todd Coffey 339K 2.29 ERA
Closer Red Sox- Jonathon Papelbon 335K .25 ERA 23 Saves

Note: Don't Know Reyes current $$ but his contract was purchased from Rochester (Twins AAA) so it can't be much, I will say Minimum 327K.

That's 7 Outstanding arms for roughly 2.5 million. Plus I mixed in some veterans there to have a nice mix. I think we could actually deal for 2-3 of these arms. Denorfia & Germano to Minnesota for Reyes, Rincon and a PTBNL. And Szymanski & Brad Salmon for Borowski. What do ya think?

Highlifeman21
06-22-2006, 08:28 PM
What kind of world are you living in that says your starters will always go 7 innings? Maybe in the 1920s, but not in the 21st century. Chances are even on the best of staffs, a team will not go a week with every starter going at least 7 innings. In the real world you need long relievers. There will also be extra inning games. If we were to expand this discussion to include past players, I'd throw in a rubber arm like Rick Mahler or Pedro Borbon or even Scott Sullivan.


Assume at worst, your starters average 5 IP per night. That means you have 4 IP to cover. As stated, all of my 7 can go 2 IP.(Feel free to dispute that.) Which means best case scenario, I'm burning up 2 arms a night to cover that 4 IP. Worst case scenario, I'm using 4 arms to cover that 4 IP, since I can't imagine that of those 7 I picked they'd not be able to go 1 IP a piece. I could be wrong.

In my real world, if we're out of the game, I let my starter continue, or I take the most rested arm and let him pitch until he's tired, and then go to the 2nd most rested arm and let him go til he's got nothin left. If we go extras, we go extras. You can't really anticipate that, so it's really a sunk cost lost game. Accept it and move on.

My theory is that if you have the best guys that can go 2 IP a piece, then each one should have adequate rest since on average you'd see 3 relievers pitch on a given night.