PDA

View Full Version : Cooperstown Talk: Borderline First Basemen



savafan
06-21-2006, 05:27 PM
My personal feeling is that Mattingly and Clark will be Hall of Famers, especially if the future veteran's committee gets to decide their fates, but Hernandez I'm not so sure about. However, when looking at the stats, they are almost identical. My take on Mattingly is that if you are going to have Puckett in the HOF, then Mattingly should be there as well. Clark, not only was a good hitter, but he was also lights out defensively at first, so was Hernandez, as his 11 Gold Gloves can attest. Thoughts on these three?


Keith Hernandez


Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1974 20 STL NL 14 34 3 10 1 2 0 2 0 0 7 8 .294 .415 .441 15 0 0 0 0 1
1975 21 STL NL 64 188 20 47 8 2 3 20 0 1 17 26 .250 .309 .362 68 0 2 2 0 5
1976 22 STL NL 129 374 54 108 21 5 7 46 4 2 49 53 .289 .376 .428 160 2 0 5 3 8
1977 23 STL NL 161 560 90 163 41 4 15 91 7 7 79 88 .291 .379 .459 257 3 2 11 1 17
1978 24 STL NL 159 542 90 138 32 4 11 64 13 5 82 68 .255 .351 .389 211 1 6 11 2 12
1979 25 STL NL 161 610 116 210 48 11 11 105 11 6 80 78 .344 .417 .513 313 0 7 5 1 9
1980 26 STL NL 159 595 111 191 39 8 16 99 14 8 86 73 .321 .408 .494 294 1 4 4 4 14
1981 27 STL NL 103 376 65 115 27 4 8 48 12 5 61 45 .306 .401 .463 174 0 5 6 2 9
1982 28 STL NL 160 579 79 173 33 6 7 94 19 11 100 67 .299 .397 .413 239 1 12 19 2 10
1983 29 TOT NL 150 538 77 160 23 7 12 63 9 5 88 72 .297 .396 .433 233 2 3 14 2 7
STL NL 55 218 34 62 15 4 3 26 1 1 24 30 .284 .352 .431 94 0 2 5 0 2
NYM NL 95 320 43 98 8 3 9 37 8 4 64 42 .306 .424 .434 139 2 1 9 2 5
1984 30 NYM NL 154 550 83 171 31 0 15 94 2 3 97 89 .311 .409 .449 247 0 9 12 1 9
1985 31 NYM NL 158 593 87 183 34 4 10 91 3 3 77 59 .309 .384 .430 255 0 10 15 2 14
1986 32 NYM NL 149 551 94 171 34 1 13 83 2 1 94 69 .310 .413 .446 246 0 3 9 4 14
1987 33 NYM NL 154 587 87 170 28 2 18 89 0 2 81 104 .290 .377 .436 256 0 4 8 4 15
1988 34 NYM NL 95 348 43 96 16 0 11 55 2 1 31 57 .276 .333 .417 145 0 4 3 1 11
1989 35 NYM NL 75 215 18 50 8 0 4 19 0 3 27 39 .233 .324 .326 70 0 0 3 2 4
1990 36 CLE AL 43 130 7 26 2 0 1 8 0 0 14 17 .200 .283 .238 31 0 0 3 1 2
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
17 Seasons 7370 2182 60 1071 63 1012 .296 .384 .436 10 71 130 32 161
2088 1124 426 162 98 1070 3214

Don Mattingly


Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1982 21 NYY AL 7 12 0 2 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 .167 .154 .167 2 0 1 0 0 2
1983 22 NYY AL 91 279 34 79 15 4 4 32 0 0 21 31 .283 .333 .409 114 2 2 5 1 8
1984 23 NYY AL 153 603 91 207 44 2 23 110 1 1 41 33 .343 .381 .537 324 8 9 8 1 15
1985 24 NYY AL 159 652 107 211 48 3 35 145 2 2 56 41 .324 .371 .567 370 2 15 13 2 15
1986 25 NYY AL 162 677 117 238 53 2 31 113 0 0 53 35 .352 .394 .573 388 1 10 11 1 17
1987 26 NYY AL 141 569 93 186 38 2 30 115 1 4 51 38 .327 .378 .559 318 0 8 13 1 16
1988 27 NYY AL 144 599 94 186 37 0 18 88 1 0 41 29 .311 .353 .462 277 0 8 14 3 13
1989 28 NYY AL 158 631 79 191 37 2 23 113 3 0 51 30 .303 .351 .477 301 0 10 18 1 15
1990 29 NYY AL 102 394 40 101 16 0 5 42 1 0 28 20 .256 .308 .335 132 0 3 13 3 13
1991 30 NYY AL 152 587 64 169 35 0 9 68 2 0 46 42 .288 .339 .394 231 0 9 11 4 21
1992 31 NYY AL 157 640 89 184 40 0 14 86 3 0 39 43 .288 .327 .416 266 0 6 7 1 11
1993 32 NYY AL 134 530 78 154 27 2 17 86 0 0 61 42 .291 .364 .445 236 0 3 9 2 20
1994 33 NYY AL 97 372 62 113 20 1 6 51 0 0 60 24 .304 .397 .411 153 0 4 7 0 8
1995 34 NYY AL 128 458 59 132 32 2 7 49 0 2 40 35 .288 .341 .413 189 0 8 7 1 17
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
14 Seasons 7003 2153 20 1099 9 444 .307 .358 .471 13 96 136 21 191
1785 1007 442 222 14 588 3301

Will Clark


Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1986 22 SFG NL 111 408 66 117 27 2 11 41 4 7 34 76 .287 .343 .444 181 9 4 10 3 3
1987 23 SFG NL 150 529 89 163 29 5 35 91 5 17 49 98 .308 .371 .580 307 3 2 11 5 2
1988 24 SFG NL 162 575 102 162 31 6 29 109 9 1 100 129 .282 .386 .508 292 0 10 27 4 9
1989 25 SFG NL 159 588 104 196 38 9 23 111 8 3 74 103 .333 .407 .546 321 0 8 14 5 6
1990 26 SFG NL 154 600 91 177 25 5 19 95 8 2 62 97 .295 .357 .448 269 0 13 9 3 7
1991 27 SFG NL 148 565 84 170 32 7 29 116 4 2 51 91 .301 .359 .536 303 0 4 12 2 5
1992 28 SFG NL 144 513 69 154 40 1 16 73 12 7 73 82 .300 .384 .476 244 0 11 23 4 5
1993 29 SFG NL 132 491 82 139 27 2 14 73 2 2 63 68 .283 .367 .432 212 1 6 6 6 10
1994 30 TEX AL 110 389 73 128 24 2 13 80 5 1 71 59 .329 .431 .501 195 0 6 11 3 5
1995 31 TEX AL 123 454 85 137 27 3 16 92 0 1 68 50 .302 .389 .480 218 0 11 6 4 7
1996 32 TEX AL 117 436 69 124 25 1 13 72 2 1 64 67 .284 .377 .436 190 0 7 5 5 10
1997 33 TEX AL 110 393 56 128 29 1 12 51 0 0 49 62 .326 .400 .496 195 0 5 11 3 4
1998 34 TEX AL 149 554 98 169 41 1 23 102 1 0 72 97 .305 .384 .507 281 0 7 5 3 15
1999 35 BAL AL 77 251 40 76 15 0 10 29 2 2 38 42 .303 .395 .482 121 0 3 2 2 5
2000 36 TOT 130 427 78 136 30 2 21 70 5 2 69 69 .319 .418 .546 233 0 4 3 7 7
BAL AL 79 256 49 77 15 1 9 28 4 2 47 45 .301 .413 .473 121 0 3 3 4 4
STL NL 51 171 29 59 15 1 12 42 1 0 22 24 .345 .426 .655 112 0 1 0 3 3
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
15 Seasons 7173 2176 47 1205 48 1190 .303 .384 .497 13 101 155 59 100
1976 1186 440 284 67 937 3562

NJReds
06-21-2006, 05:37 PM
Mattingly was the best of the three, but his bad back caused him to flame out quickly. The Puckett arguement is the best one for Mattingly supporters, but Puckett also had some great World Series moments. My inclination is to let the Veteran's Committee decide.

Hernandez and Clark were consistantly good, but not great, so in my book, not Hall of Fame.

Cyclone792
06-21-2006, 05:58 PM
Clark, Hernandez, then Mattingly ... in that order.

I'd put Clark in; he had an incredible peak that was right in the middle of a terribly low scoring era while also playing in a ridiculous pitcher's park. His problem is he was just a jerk. Hernandez is borderline, right around the Orlando Cepeda/George Sisler/Bill Terry level.

Mattingly is a bit behind all of them.

FWIW, Dick Allen was a greater player than all three of them, but he's an even more extreme version of Clark in that Allen is probably on the short list of the biggest jerks in baseball history.

RedEye
06-21-2006, 06:00 PM
I don't think any of the three should be there. This is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good we're talking about. Puck has more credentials than Donnie Baseball. Period.

steig
06-21-2006, 06:59 PM
I agree with RedEye. I don't consider any of those players to be top level first basemen of all time. They all have about 2100 hits and lower homerun totals than what I would consider for a first baseman. Mattingly gets the New York press treatment to help him out in the eyes of the public and the baseball writers. Kriby was a different level greater than the three players mentioned and I would not have voted Kirby into the hall of fame.

Col_ IN Reds fan
06-21-2006, 07:40 PM
Add me to the list of those that are against. Look at their stats. For 1st basemen they do not do much for me to be of HOF caliber. The HOF is too crowded as is. If you start showing stats of these guys well where does it end?

Vada Pinson, Bobby Bonds , Rusty Staub (this list could go on for awhile)?

Handofdeath
06-21-2006, 08:06 PM
Jim Rice

8 time All-Star
382 career homers 1,451 RBI's .298 lifetime AVG
9 times A.L. Top Ten in RBI's (#1 twice)
9 times Top Ten in Total Bases (# 1 4 times)
8 times Top Ten in hits (#1 once)
7 times Top Ten in HR's (#1 3 times)
6 times Top Ten in AVG
6 times Top Ten in runs
51st all time in homers and RBI's
61st in Total Bases
91st in hits

If Rice can't get in the other three don't have a snowball's chance in going.

redsfanmia
06-21-2006, 08:32 PM
Hernandez also has the cocaine thing in his past.

KronoRed
06-21-2006, 08:38 PM
None of these guys are even borderline for me, productive but not legendary

Hap
06-21-2006, 08:48 PM
Darrell Evans (http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/evansda01.shtml)

statistics are very similar to tony perez

played same positions and was a better fielder

played on many mediocre and bad teams

Cooper
06-21-2006, 08:59 PM
Hernandez called a better game than 95% of the catchers in the NL. He was the brains behind all those good Mets teams. His defense was much better than Clarks...not putting Clark down but Hernandez was a once in a generation defensive 1st baseman.

Mattingly was above average 6 years -below average 6 years ----doesn't that make him average?

Kirby goes in.
Clark does not.
Mattingly will not.
Hernandez will not --but was better than any of those guys listed above.

4256 Hits
06-21-2006, 10:38 PM
No way to all. A todays 1st baseman needs have either 400 HR's or 2500 Hits or an OPS near 1.000 to even be considered for the H of F.

BigJohn
06-21-2006, 10:41 PM
Garvey, Al Oliver?

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/content/printer_friendly/mlb/y2005/m01/d01/c926567.jsp


http://www.al-oliver.com/stats.htm

Danny Serafini
06-21-2006, 10:55 PM
If I had to take one it would be Mattingly, for a period of time he was truly great. He's one of the great what ifs, had he been able to stay healthy he could've put up really big numbers. But he didn't do it long enough to put him in the hall. Hernandez and Clark were never great, just very good. That makes for a nice career, but doesn't put them in the hall.

RedEye
06-22-2006, 12:04 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if Sean Casey ends up with career statistics similar to these three. Is he a Hall of Famer? Nice guy, but I think we all know the answer to that question.

Cyclone792
06-22-2006, 12:24 AM
Career Win Shares
Will Clark ...... 331
Keith Hernandez . 311
Don Mattingly ... 263

Five Season Peak Win Shares
Will Clark ...... 168
Don Mattingly ... 148
Keith Hernandez . 146

Win Shares per 162 Games
Will Clark ....... 27.05
Keith Hernandez .. 24.13
Don Mattingly .... 23.87

RC/27 vs. League
Will Clark ........ 1.48 (7.18 / 4.84)
Keith Hernandez ... 1.38 (6.22 / 4.50)
Don Mattingly ..... 1.32 (6.07 / 4.61)

Runs Created Above Average
Will Clark ...... 473
Keith Hernandez . 363
Don Mattingly ... 293

Runs Created Above Position
Will Clark ...... 294
Keith Hernandez . 255
Don Mattingly ... 127

OPS+
Will Clark ...... 138
Keith Hernandez . 129
Don Mattingly ... 127

Offensive Winning Percentage
Will Clark ......... .674
Keith Hernandez .... .644
Don Mattingly ...... .624

wolfboy
06-22-2006, 12:26 AM
I don't think any of the three should be there. This is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good we're talking about. Puck has more credentials than Donnie Baseball. Period.

I agree with everything except for Puckett having more credentials. Mattingly had almost dead similar stats with around 200 less at bats. Mattingly won an MVP, a batting title, and 9 Gold Gloves. Pucket won a batting title, had 6 Gold Gloves, and was an All-Star for 10 years in a row. They were both great players who had their careers taken away from them. Neither one is a Hall of Famer. I'm pretty confident in saying that, and Mattingly is one of my favorite all time players.

If you look at Mattingly's comparables on baseball-refence, Kirby Puckett is #4 and Cecil Cooper is #1. If you look at Puckett's comparables, Mattingly is #1 and Cooper is #2.

wolfboy
06-22-2006, 12:33 AM
No way to all. A todays 1st baseman needs have either 400 HR's or 2500 Hits or an OPS near 1.000 to even be considered for the H of F.

During the time of Hernandez, Clark, Puckett, and Mattingly not many guys had seasons around 1.000 OPS, not to mention a career.

RedEye
06-22-2006, 12:36 AM
I agree with everything except for Puckett having more credentials. Mattingly had almost dead similar stats with around 200 less at bats. Mattingly won an MVP, a batting title, and 9 Gold Gloves. Pucket won a batting title, had 6 Gold Gloves, and was an All-Star for 10 years in a row. They were both great players who had their careers taken away from them. Neither one is a Hall of Famer. I'm pretty confident in saying that, and Mattingly is one of my favorite all time players.

If you look at Mattingly's comparables on baseball-refence, Kirby Puckett is #4 and Cecil Cooper is #1. If you look at Puckett's comparables, Mattingly is #1 and Cooper is #2.

Points all well-taken. But two wrongs don't make a right, especially when you're trying to uphold some kind of standard.

billy117
06-22-2006, 02:43 AM
Keith Hernandez will never make it to the HOF because his reputation was tarnished by that incident of him spitting on those two fans by the players parking lot after a game.

Team Clark
06-22-2006, 03:20 AM
Rice or nobody at this point....

wolfboy
06-22-2006, 09:07 AM
Points all well-taken. But two wrongs don't make a right, especially when you're trying to uphold some kind of standard.

I agree. That's why I said that neither one is a HOF.

osuceltic
06-22-2006, 12:44 PM
Hernandez called a better game than 95% of the catchers in the NL. He was the brains behind all those good Mets teams. His defense was much better than Clarks...not putting Clark down but Hernandez was a once in a generation defensive 1st baseman.

Mattingly was above average 6 years -below average 6 years ----doesn't that make him average?

Kirby goes in.
Clark does not.
Mattingly will not.
Hernandez will not --but was better than any of those guys listed above.
I couldn't agree more. You can't look at stats and fully appreciate Keith Hernandez. Those great Mets teams had Strawberry, Carter and the rest, but Hernandez was the best of the bunch and the key to the whole thing. I can't imagine there ever was a better defensive first baseman. I can't know that without seeing some of the old-timers, but Hernandez is hands down the best of the past 30 years -- and it's not even close. He also was a truly great clutch hitter. Just a phenomenal player.

4256 Hits
06-22-2006, 11:02 PM
During the time of Hernandez, Clark, Puckett, and Mattingly not many guys had seasons around 1.000 OPS, not to mention a career.

I know, my point was that if a 1st baseman can't get to either 400 HR of 2500 hits they need to have one hell of a shorter career.

edabbs44
06-22-2006, 11:43 PM
Mattingly wouldn't even be a discussion except he was "Donnie Baseball" in NY. No business being in the Hall.

But then again, the HOF has a bunch of players who have no business. Ozzie Smith? The Scooter? So you never know.

Chip R
06-23-2006, 12:23 AM
Keith Hernandez will never make it to the HOF because his reputation was tarnished by that incident of him spitting on those two fans by the players parking lot after a game.

But he's Keith Hernandez.

savafan
06-23-2006, 01:46 AM
Mattingly wouldn't even be a discussion except he was "Donnie Baseball" in NY. No business being in the Hall.

But then again, the HOF has a bunch of players who have no business. Ozzie Smith? The Scooter? So you never know.

Well, it is called the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Greatness...;)