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View Full Version : Is Krivsky Dragging His Feet?



Jpup
06-23-2006, 07:48 AM
Doesn't it seem like the time to make a move for bullpen help has been right now for, at least, 2 weeks? Is Reds GM Wayne Krivsky dragging his feet and wasting valuable time is acquiring some bullpen and rotation help? I am not bagging on Krivsky, I don't know what he's doing behind the seems, but all seems quite regarding any rumors of transactions to improve the club.

I was just interested in your thoughts on the subject. Am I just being impatient?

Is he waiting on Machado and Hancock to come back? That was last year right? ;)

SirFelixCat
06-23-2006, 08:49 AM
I don't see the market being that good, right now. Too many teams can still think 'we have a chance'. Until more teams throw in the towel, I just don't think the market for teams that want to sell, is that big.

WK has given me no reason NOT to trust him, so therefore, in Wayne I trust....

redsmetz
06-23-2006, 09:07 AM
I don't see the market being that good, right now. Too many teams can still think 'we have a chance'. Until more teams throw in the towel, I just don't think the market for teams that want to sell, is that big.

WK has given me no reason NOT to trust him, so therefore, in Wayne I trust....

I'd have to fall on this line of thinking too. We don't want a move for a move's sake; we want something substantive that's not going to set the team back in the long run.

wheels
06-23-2006, 09:08 AM
I'd rather he practice a little due dilligence.

Teams are far more willing to part with bullpenners at the deadline.

To try and push a deal through at this juncture will cost more (in player value) , and with relievers being as volatile as they are, it's better to wait until teams are a bit more desperate to jettison contracts.

Redsnake
06-23-2006, 09:10 AM
I agree with SC Reds Fans. Until more teams fall farther behind we are stuck with ini house solutions. DFA, White Call ups in Standridge and Belisle soon. Until then Wayne is doing what the market allows him to do.
At the very least you know he isn't looking for another outfielder like Bowden would do.

RFS62
06-23-2006, 09:20 AM
I don't see the market being that good, right now. Too many teams can still think 'we have a chance'. Until more teams throw in the towel, I just don't think the market for teams that want to sell, is that big.

WK has given me no reason NOT to trust him, so therefore, in Wayne I trust....


Nice post.

Unless we're in the front office, we really don't know what is going on. If I had to bet, I'd bet that he's scouring the majors for potential dealing partners. It's not that easy.

He's certainly earned my trust with what he's done since taking over. Let's see what happens between now and the trading deadline before we pass judgment.

Redhook
06-23-2006, 09:42 AM
I don't think The Kriv is dragging his feet at all. I agree with most posts here that the market isn't great right now and I believe he's been working hard behind the scenes.

All has been quiet on the trade front recently. I'm hoping it's the "calm before the storm". I'm of the opinion that The Kriv will make some sort of big deal in a couple of weeks that will not only make the team better this year, it will further our chances of doing well next and show the fans that the new ownership is for real (I think they're already for real, but being buyers at the trading deadline will seal the deal). I really think one dynamic move could give this team a spark that would last the rest of the year.

registerthis
06-23-2006, 10:42 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing the Reds go after Jon Rauch of the Nats. Normally, I'd be leary of a fly ball pitcher from Washington, but his stats on the road have been quite respectable--he's actually allowed fewer runs and a lower Opp. BA on the road than at RFK. Additionally, he's cheap--only making $335,000 this year. I say offer the Nats Denofria for Rauch and see if they bite.

Krusty
06-23-2006, 10:48 AM
Keep your eye on the Tribe. IF they don't make a quick turnaround, they will be shopping players including Bob Wickman their closer. Downside is he will be a free agent at the end of the season.

edabbs44
06-23-2006, 10:49 AM
I would at least hear some reassurance from Kriv. Or here a rumor of how Kriv is in talks with someone. The fact of the matter is, if he does wait for the deadline, this team might be out of it. This bullpen is not going to get better on its own. It's not like they have a bunch of 23 yr olds who should get better as time goes along.

Look at what Narron said the other day. He wants to use Coffey in the 7th or 8th and then use Weathers, Hammond or Mercker to close. Is he serious? Hammond, the guy with the ERA over 6? The other two, who aren't much better? He has no other options. I cannot blame Narron since this BP is horrific.

Kriv should be getting the newspapers and looking at the bottom of the standings. Those are his current trade partners. Overpay a little. Go find some pitchers with live arms. Get a starter who hasn't panned out, but throws 94. Do something. Before he knows it, it will be July 28th and the team will be 10 out and 5 out of the WC. Then what? Worst case is he can then trade them again.

What do you think it would take to get Valverde out of Arizona? I hope Wayne knows, b/c that phone call should have already been made.

Krusty
06-23-2006, 10:53 AM
Maybe Wayne Krivsky is planning another deal with Minnesota? It is no doubt they will be shopping some of their veteran pitchers.

Heath
06-23-2006, 11:14 AM
Maybe Wayne Krivsky is saying a lot by not saying anything at all. Maybe there is nothing he wants out there yet to deal for because the price is too high.

I'm sure WayneK is working the phones or scanning lists.

He doesn't "need" our approval nor he "needs" to reassure us.

RedsManRick
06-23-2006, 11:38 AM
I would at least hear some reassurance from Kriv. Or here a rumor of how Kriv is in talks with someone.

Maybe Jimbo can give him some pointers on how to slip things to Gammons...

pedro
06-23-2006, 12:24 PM
The market hasn't opened yet.

registerthis
06-23-2006, 12:38 PM
The market hasn't opened yet.

Unless you live in Kansas City, in which case it opened during spring training. :)

EKURed
06-23-2006, 12:51 PM
What is Joe Nathan's contract status in Minnesota?

markymark69
06-23-2006, 12:51 PM
I am in agreement with most. I just don't think the market is that great right now. I believe he his trying, but some of the bottom feeders with the possible exception of KC and Pittsburgh aren't ready to throw the towel in on the season.

Unfortunately, I think any help will have to come within the organization (Standridge, Wagner, Dumatrait, etc.)

We still have a month before the so-called trade deadline, hopefully we can stay in it and make a move then.

redsmetz
06-23-2006, 12:59 PM
The market hasn't opened yet.

http://ofb.net/~epstein/sl/0505/20050501-store-closed.jpg

Perhaps this is why we hear nothing from Wayne?

TeamBoone
06-23-2006, 01:11 PM
There's no doubt in my mind that Krivsky is working on BP help as I type this. That doesn't mean he'll be successful at this juncture. It does mean, IMHO, that he will not make a move just to do it... nor would we want him too.

If he can make a deal that will improve the BP now, he'll do it.

We must all remember that the trade competition increases as the deadline draws closer... and increases even more when the deadline looms over teams' heads. Some teams who feel to be out of it (or feel they will be out it), will probably wait until the last minute before making their best deal... and who can blame them?

redsmetz
06-23-2006, 01:13 PM
I think we need to remember too, that trades are not the only thing a GM does. Right now, besides working the phones, they have nondrafted free agents to sign to fill out minor league rosters, contracts to be negotiated with draftees, and the whole rest of the operation to oversee. Patience, people! :)

reds44
06-23-2006, 01:25 PM
It's June. There are not many teams looking to dump players right now. We need to hang around until mid-July, and Wayne will get us alot of pen help. I have faith in him.

edabbs44
06-23-2006, 01:27 PM
I think we need to remember too, that trades are not the only thing a GM does. Right now, besides working the phones, they have nondrafted free agents to sign to fill out minor league rosters, contracts to be negotiated with draftees, and the whole rest of the operation to oversee. Patience, people! :)
I'm just afraid being patient will watch the playoff race pass by Cincy very quickly.

redsmetz
06-23-2006, 01:45 PM
I'm just afraid being patient will watch the playoff race pass by Cincy very quickly.

I see the playoffs as gravy this year. I think it's doable, but I'm more interested in the long term health of the team and the entire organization. If we make the playoffs, great! But let's not sacrifice the future to do it, as we have attempted in the past.

Heath
06-23-2006, 02:02 PM
^ what he said. If sacrificing 2008-2012 for a Wild Card run in 2006 is the answer, no thanks.

edabbs44
06-23-2006, 02:04 PM
I see the playoffs as gravy this year. I think it's doable, but I'm more interested in the long term health of the team and the entire organization. If we make the playoffs, great! But let's not sacrifice the future to do it, as we have attempted in the past.
Agreed...but I have no problem dealing mid-tier prospects for now. Obviously not Homer, Wood or Bruce level.

toledodan
06-23-2006, 02:15 PM
in the past we have usually waited to dump players at the deadline for a better return. i don't see any reason why other teams wouldn't wait as well.

Heath
06-23-2006, 02:17 PM
Agreed...but I have no problem dealing mid-tier prospects for now. Obviously not Homer, Wood or Bruce level.

That's a great idea. Fantastic. Small problem.

You have to HAVE mid-tier prospects to deal before you can deal them.

Mid-Tier prospects might start coming around here in the next few years. But there really aren't any now unless you are thinking of Bergolla, Janish, & Olmedo.

edabbs44
06-23-2006, 02:27 PM
That's a great idea. Fantastic. Small problem.

You have to HAVE mid-tier prospects to deal before you can deal them.

Mid-Tier prospects might start coming around here in the next few years. But there really aren't any now unless you are thinking of Bergolla, Janish, & Olmedo.
You can include Chick and Pelland in there as well. And since they flat out refuse to call up Denorfia, dangle him out there also. He loses more value every day he plays in AAA, unless Kriv wants to win the AAA championship.

Falls City Beer
06-23-2006, 02:29 PM
^ what he said. If sacrificing 2008-2012 for a Wild Card run in 2006 is the answer, no thanks.

No one's ever shown me a convincing scenario in which something like the above plays out.

toledodan
06-23-2006, 03:10 PM
No one's ever shown me a convincing scenario in which something like the above plays out.


i agree 100%. there is no gurantee we will even be in contention in the future. if we have a 80-90% chance to win now you do it. you never know for sure how prospects will turn out so if the right player comes along make the move. you can live with a BJ Ryan mistake every now and then.

redsmetz
06-23-2006, 03:12 PM
You can include Chick and Pelland in there as well. And since they flat out refuse to call up Denorfia, dangle him out there also. He loses more value every day he plays in AAA, unless Kriv wants to win the AAA championship.

I don't think Denorfia loses any value at AAA and I see him as an excellent part of any trade. The same is true of Olmedo. If either of them can bring some relief help, great! You know, Denorfia may well be in the position that Casey was in at Cleveland. He was blocked by Jim Thome. Denorfia is blocked by our three starting outfielders. Unless one of them goes away in a trade, then deal him to where he can play. He's showcased night after night with Louisville. As many have said, he'll rot up here in Cincinnati. Denorfia, quite frankly, is a nice problem to have. I want more of those problems in the long run.

registerthis
06-23-2006, 03:37 PM
^ what he said. If sacrificing 2008-2012 for a Wild Card run in 2006 is the answer, no thanks.

It makes sense logically, but it forgive me for not necessarily buying into it. In the late 90s, the Reds told their fans "To stay competitive, we have to tear it down and build from scratch. We'll build a winner, just be patient." And so we were. We had the '99 season, when the team almost made the playoffs, and the '00 season, where they won their share of games but never seriously threatened anyone. And then the bottom fell out.

In 2001, we were told "To stay competitive, we need a new ballpark. When the new ballpark is built, we'll expand our payroll and be a competitive team. Just be patient." And so we were. 2003 comes and goes, and the payroll budges nary an inch while the team drops like a rock tied to a cement block.

In 2004, we were told "To stay competitive, we need to overhaul the minor league system. We'll never compete in the free agent market, our talent must be home-grown. We'll become competitive in a few years, just be patient." And so we were. 2004 and 2005 come and go, and the Reds coontinue to languish in the bottom of the standings, while the rebuilding effort consists of poor draft decisions, poor trades and a tendency to patch holes with aging, hapless vets with no hope of improving the team.

So here we are in 2006. The team is compteting, for the most part. How, I'm not entirely sure, but here we are in late June leading the Wild Card race and within striking distance of the Cards for first place. And yet I hear that making the handful of trades that would help ensure this team's competitiveness over this year might irreparably harm the long term strategy of this franchise over the long term?

Forgive me, but this franchise has been barely a notch above putrid for the better part of the last decade. We've been issued so many false promises and false hopes from the management of this franchise that some of us have become accustomed to viewing every single move this front office makes with skepticism and cynicism--even when the moves make perfect sense.

There is no guarantee of success in this mysterious 2008-2012 window. There's nothing in our farm system which suggests it, and while I've no doubt that Krivsky has a plan to make the team competitive, we saw where similar plans landed Bowden and O'Brien. I'm getting more than tired of "wait till next year." I'm tired of hearing continually that this franchise is 2-3 years away. The truth is, we're NOT. We're competitive NOW. We have many of the pieces in place TODAY that are helping this team win. We're just lacking in a couple of areas, and they're areas that can be fixed without a great amount of pain. So why are we trigger-shy? Why do we not want the Reds to make moves that would help then win NOW? The threat of non-competitiveness in coming years rings hollow to me, because I've heard it all before and saw what it got us. At some point you need to wake up and realize that the team you are watching is actually pretty darn good, and that with some help they could do something this year, next year, and maybe beyond.

So, make a run for it. Pick up a couple of solid relief guys. Make that trade for the starting pitcher that could put us over the top. Be willing to part with a Bailey or a Votto if it nets us something valuable in return. Give the fans something to actually cheer about and support, rather than the typical "wait till next year" approach. If nothing else, we've earned it.

dfs
06-23-2006, 03:39 PM
if we have a 80-90% chance to win now you do it.

Do we have that? I don't think it's anywhere near that close.

FWIW Denorfia isn't the outfield of the future. That would be Jay Bruce. Dude is smokin low A ball as a 19 year old. Denorfia is farm system excess that they can cling to or flip for something useful.

Aronchis
06-23-2006, 03:44 PM
It makes sense logically, but it forgive me for not necessarily buying into it. In the late 90s, the Reds told their fans "To stay competitive, we have to tear it down and build from scratch. We'll build a winner, just be patient." And so we were. We had the '99 season, when the team almost made the playoffs, and the '00 season, where they won their share of games but never seriously threatened anyone. And then the bottom fell out.

In 2001, we were told "To stay competitive, we need a new ballpark. When the new ballpark is built, we'll expand our payroll and be a competitive team. Just be patient." And so we were. 2003 comes and goes, and the payroll budges nary an inch while the team drops like a rock tied to a cement block.

In 2004, we were told "To stay competitive, we need to overhaul the minor league system. We'll never compete in the free agent market, our talent must be home-grown. We'll become competitive in a few years, just be patient." And so we were. 2004 and 2005 come and go, and the Reds coontinue to languish in the bottom of the standings, while the rebuilding effort consists of poor draft decisions, poor trades and a tendency to patch holes with aging, hapless vets with no hope of improving the team.

So here we are in 2006. The team is compteting, for the most part. How, I'm not entirely sure, but here we are in late June leading the Wild Card race and within striking distance of the Cards for first place. And yet I hear that making the handful of trades that would help ensure this team's competitiveness over this year might irreparably harm the long term strategy of this franchise over the long term?

Forgive me, but this franchise has been barely a notch above putrid for the better part of the last decade. We've been issued so many false promises and false hopes from the management of this franchise that some of us have become accustomed to viewing every single move this front office makes with skepticism and cynicism--even when the moves make perfect sense.

There is no guarantee of success in this mysterious 2008-2012 window. There's nothing in our farm system which suggests it, and while I've no doubt that Krivsky has a plan to make the team competitive, we saw where similar plans landed Bowden and O'Brien. I'm getting more than tired of "wait till next year." I'm tired of hearing continually that this franchise is 2-3 years away. The truth is, we're NOT. We're competitive NOW. We have many of the pieces in place TODAY that are helping this team win. We're just lacking in a couple of areas, and they're areas that can be fixed without a great amount of pain. So why are we trigger-shy? Why do we not want the Reds to make moves that would help then win NOW? The threat of non-competitiveness in coming years rings hollow to me, because I've heard it all before and saw what it got us. At some point you need to wake up and realize that the team you are watching is actually pretty darn good, and that with some help they could do something this year, next year, and maybe beyond.

So, make a run for it. Pick up a couple of solid relief guys. Make that trade for the starting pitcher that could put us over the top. Be willing to part with a Bailey or a Votto if it nets us something valuable in return. Give the fans something to actually cheer about and support, rather than the typical "wait till next year" approach. If nothing else, we've earned it.

Yes, but when you "tear it down", you expect to develope and aquire some good talent. The Reds didn't, especially from the pitching side of it. Other than Dunn(the classic slugger), the Reds "rebuilding" didn't do much for me from a franchise standpoint either. No Peavy's,Beckett's or Burhle's. Neither a Larkin either to replace Larkin. The only thing the Reds did overly well was build up a bullpen...........that needed rebuilding after 2003. Don't cry me foul over the "tear it down" stuff because it went bad in 98-02. Either you do it right or wrong, the Reds did it wrongly and poorly.

edabbs44
06-23-2006, 03:46 PM
I don't think Denorfia loses any value at AAA and I see him as an excellent part of any trade. The same is true of Olmedo. If either of them can bring some relief help, great! You know, Denorfia may well be in the position that Casey was in at Cleveland. He was blocked by Jim Thome. Denorfia is blocked by our three starting outfielders. Unless one of them goes away in a trade, then deal him to where he can play. He's showcased night after night with Louisville. As many have said, he'll rot up here in Cincinnati. Denorfia, quite frankly, is a nice problem to have. I want more of those problems in the long run.
Deno himself isn't a problem right now. The problem is he is useless to the Cincinnati Reds. That's why they should be looking to deal him if he won't be playing in the bigs any time soon. He and LaRue, IMO, would be our best trading chips (who are expendable) to get a reliever that could help now.

registerthis
06-23-2006, 04:01 PM
Don't cry me foul over the "tear it down" stuff because it went bad in 98-02. Either you do it right or wrong, the Reds did it wrongly and poorly.

We're four years removed from '02, and the success this team is having has less to do with the results of any master "rebulding plan" than it does with simply getting the right guys in the right places and getting lucky.

I have no trust in this team that they're capable of building a winning team from the ground up. Additionally, I've seen no evidence that acquiring the missing pieces of this team's puzzle will cripple the franchise for the coming years. This team doesn't need a complete dismantling. But this three year cycle they've trained the Reds fans to be on is simply never ending. Once the three years gets here, the clock merely starts all over again.

Heath
06-23-2006, 04:05 PM
Deno himself isn't a problem right now. The problem is he is useless to the Cincinnati Reds. That's why they should be looking to deal him if he won't be playing in the bigs any time soon. He and LaRue, IMO, would be our best trading chips (who are expendable) to get a reliever that could help now.


Chris Denorfia is a Ken Griffey, Jr. pulled hammy/strained muscle/unscrewed tendon away from being the Cincinnati starting centerfielder. Any reason to believe the Denorfia is useless to the Reds is utter bunk.

Jason LaRue could net us Ray King. Then Austin Kearns can have a full night's rest.

To trade Denorfia for flash-in-the-pan middle relief help is ludicrious and defeating. IMO.

Jpup
06-23-2006, 04:08 PM
Chris Denorfia is a Ken Griffey, Jr. pulled hammy/strained muscle/unscrewed tendon away from being the Cincinnati starting centerfielder. Any reason to believe the Denorfia is useless to the Reds is utter bunk.

Jason LaRue could net us Ray King. Then Austin Kearns can have a full night's rest.

To trade Denorfia for flash-in-the-pan middle relief help is ludicrious and defeating. IMO.

Jr. gets hurt and Freel plays center. Denorfia isn't starting anything for the Reds this year IMO. I just don't think that the FO is ready to use him at the MLB level.

dabvu2498
06-23-2006, 04:09 PM
Chris Denorfia is a Ken Griffey, Jr. pulled hammy/strained muscle/unscrewed tendon away from being the Cincinnati starting centerfielder. Any reason to believe the Denorfia is useless to the Reds is utter bunk.

I could have sworn that was Ryan Freel that started all those games when JR. was hurt this spring.

Denorfia is a 4th MLB outfielder at best, unfortunately he's going to have to prove this to us by playing every day at some point.

That said, I hope he proves me wrong.

edabbs44
06-23-2006, 04:12 PM
Chris Denorfia is a Ken Griffey, Jr. pulled hammy/strained muscle/unscrewed tendon away from being the Cincinnati starting centerfielder. Any reason to believe the Denorfia is useless to the Reds is utter bunk.

Jason LaRue could net us Ray King. Then Austin Kearns can have a full night's rest.

To trade Denorfia for flash-in-the-pan middle relief help is ludicrious and defeating. IMO.
Who said flash in the pan? The guy has potential. Hitting well over .300 in AAA. Just b/c the Reds refuse to/can't use him doesn't mean he cannot succeed in at the ML level. But the longer they wait the less he would get in return.

Heath
06-23-2006, 04:16 PM
I could have sworn that was Ryan Freel that started all those games when JR. was hurt this spring.

Denorfia is a 4th MLB outfielder at best, unfortunately he's going to have to prove this to us by playing every day at some point.

That said, I hope he proves me wrong.

While Jr was out due to the WBC, Freel started a few games in CF, while Denorfia was in the corner, while Wily Mo Pena was in the WBC, while Adam Dunn was at 1st base.

Don't get me wrong, Denorfia's not the "elite draft pick"-type - he's a grinder. If he turns out to be a Mark Kotsay type, I'd take that in CF or in a corner.

I think the FO actually has a plan for Denorfia. And it will take Ken Griffey, Sr. to do it.

Heath
06-23-2006, 04:29 PM
Who said flash in the pan? The guy has potential. Hitting well over .300 in AAA. Just b/c the Reds refuse to/can't use him doesn't mean he cannot succeed in at the ML level. But the longer they wait the less he would get in return.


First - read your original post- you called Chris Denorfia useless to the Cincinnati Reds.

Second - I said that if Chris Denorfia was traded - you would get flash-in-the-pan middle relief. Middle relief that has been recycled mulitple times at major league and minor league levels. Check out most of the middle relievers out there - not many are bona-fide stars nor high round picks. Some are on their fourth or fifth teams. Look at the baseballreference.com entries for Ray King or Brendan Donalley or Cliff Politte. (Two of those were Reds at one point). 9 out of 10 times your middle relief studs are washed-out recycled rejects. That's why trading your best prospect for middle relief is risky at best. Might as well take chances on DFA's and released pitchers or pitchers at AA or AAA.

For those of you stressing the trade of Chris Denorfia, talk to the Cleveland Indians about trading Brian Giles for Ricky Rincon. Rincon was the premier middle reliever on a bad Pirate team in the mid 90's. No one fell farther or harder than Rincon in Cleveland.

registerthis
06-23-2006, 04:40 PM
Chris Denofria playing in AAA is hurting this team substantially less than the current cast of clowns the Reds have in their bullpen. Something's got to give somewhere--I'm not saying it has to be Denofria, but the bullpen is beyond horrid.

KronoRed
06-23-2006, 04:41 PM
I'm still on the fence about Wayne, I understand the BP market isn't open but there is nobody at all in baseball who would be interested in one of the 3 catchers?

Hmm.

KronoRed
06-23-2006, 04:42 PM
So, make a run for it. Pick up a couple of solid relief guys. Make that trade for the starting pitcher that could put us over the top. Be willing to part with a Bailey or a Votto if it nets us something valuable in return. Give the fans something to actually cheer about and support, rather than the typical "wait till next year" approach. If nothing else, we've earned it.
I want to make a run for it with a chance to win it, this team won't win a world series and that (to me) is the only real goal.

Heath
06-23-2006, 04:42 PM
Chris Denofria playing in AAA is hurting this team substantially less than the current cast of clowns the Reds have in their bullpen. Something's got to give somewhere--I'm not saying it has to be Denofria, but the bullpen is beyond horrid.

Yeah, but everyone's looking for bullpen help too, for crying out loud Rick White (Rick White???? )was picked up today by Philadelphia, who the talking heads say "should be a contender this fall".

If Rick White is getting a shot, there's hope for dead people.

Bullpen people aren't there. That's why Krivsky's not moving people. I wouldn't be shocked when Shafer came back and the moving vans for Germano, Chick, Pelland, Wagner (!), etc to come up to the big club.

And, I don't think the DFA line is done yet either.

Heath
06-23-2006, 04:47 PM
I'm still on the fence about Wayne, I understand the BP market isn't open but there is nobody at all in baseball who would be interested in one of the 3 catchers?

Hmm.

Well, you figure Ross is heading for career norms soon, Valetin's regressing over a career year last year, and LaRue, while a known commodity defensively, is hitting a buck-eighty-six while making 3 mill this year AND next.

That's tough enough for Monty Hall, let alone Wayne Krvisky.

dabvu2498
06-23-2006, 04:49 PM
For those of you stressing the trade of Chris Denorfia, talk to the Cleveland Indians about trading Brian Giles for Ricky Rincon. Rincon was the premier middle reliever on a bad Pirate team in the mid 90's. No one fell farther or harder than Rincon in Cleveland.
Rincon's numbers weren't bad as an Indian... not at all. 2.70 ERA in 2000, 2.83 in 2001. Giving up Giles was part of a numbers crunch as well. Giles was behind Manny Ramirez, Kenny Lofton, David Justice. It came down to a choice between him and Richie Sexson. Indians chose poorly in this case, but still managed to win their division in 99 and 01.

Then they got fleeced (by everyone's favorite BBeane) when they gave him to Oakland.

Heath
06-23-2006, 05:04 PM
Rincon's numbers weren't bad as an Indian... not at all. 2.70 ERA in 2000, 2.83 in 2001. Giving up Giles was part of a numbers crunch as well. Giles was behind Manny Ramirez, Kenny Lofton, David Justice. It came down to a choice between him and Richie Sexson. Indians chose poorly in this case, but still managed to win their division in 99 and 01.

Then they got fleeced (by everyone's favorite BBeane) when they gave him to Oakland.

no, but the year he was traded for was an important part of the deal as well. Albert Belle had left via FA, Harold Baines at 40 was a DH with Richie Sexson and David Justice was just breaking down. They won a pennant in '99 with smoke and mirrors and Rincon's 4.50 ERA (at one point up to 9.00 ) plus the rest of the pitching staff hit the bottom after blowing a 2-0 lead in the ALDS PLUS getting absolutely obliterated 23-7 in Game 4 in Boston. In 2000 Rincon got shoulder problems and only pitched 20 innings and became basically a LOOGY. Is Brian Giles worth a LOOGY?

They didn't win in 2000 with the Winning Ugly 2 - Chicago White Sox and suprised even themselves in winning in 2001 - caught lightning in a bottle even with the worst defensive-effeciency club in the American League. The Indians had to outscore you late to win - their RS/RA diffrence was about 70 and they were scoring at 5.54 runs but allowing 5.07. Also, the team ERA was below average. Offensively, there was no doubt they could score (sound familiar? )

KronoRed
06-23-2006, 05:06 PM
We're the late 90's Indians?

But HEY..we didn't get a Jacobs field :(

Heath
06-23-2006, 05:08 PM
We're the late 90's Indians?

But HEY..we didn't get a Jacobs field :(

Thank goodness. You thought the top 6 seats were high at Cinergy - Jacobs Field is REALLY high up there.

Cleveland needed it to keep the Indians. They never thought the Browns would leave town.

Whoops.

KronoRed
06-23-2006, 05:10 PM
Who sits up there? ;)

dabvu2498
06-23-2006, 05:10 PM
Is Brian Giles worth a LOOGY?

I think we can all agree that's a no... but is an "extra" outfielder worth a run at a pennant???

edabbs44
06-23-2006, 05:12 PM
First - read your original post- you called Chris Denorfia useless to the Cincinnati Reds.

Second - I said that if Chris Denorfia was traded - you would get flash-in-the-pan middle relief. Middle relief that has been recycled mulitple times at major league and minor league levels. Check out most of the middle relievers out there - not many are bona-fide stars nor high round picks. Some are on their fourth or fifth teams. Look at the baseballreference.com entries for Ray King or Brendan Donalley or Cliff Politte. (Two of those were Reds at one point). 9 out of 10 times your middle relief studs are washed-out recycled rejects. That's why trading your best prospect for middle relief is risky at best. Might as well take chances on DFA's and released pitchers or pitchers at AA or AAA.

For those of you stressing the trade of Chris Denorfia, talk to the Cleveland Indians about trading Brian Giles for Ricky Rincon. Rincon was the premier middle reliever on a bad Pirate team in the mid 90's. No one fell farther or harder than Rincon in Cleveland.
Useless to the Reds, as in major league Reds, right now since he isn't of any use to the ML team.

Also I know your reference was to flash in the pan relievers. I think he would be able to draw a decent arm.

Deno is nowhere near their best prospect.

edabbs44
06-23-2006, 05:13 PM
Rincon's numbers weren't bad as an Indian... not at all. 2.70 ERA in 2000, 2.83 in 2001. Giving up Giles was part of a numbers crunch as well. Giles was behind Manny Ramirez, Kenny Lofton, David Justice. It came down to a choice between him and Richie Sexson. Indians chose poorly in this case, but still managed to win their division in 99 and 01.

Then they got fleeced (by everyone's favorite BBeane) when they gave him to Oakland.
And I wouldn't be surprised if Giles' name ended up in Grimsley's affidavit.

Heath
06-23-2006, 05:19 PM
Who sits up there? ;)

Me. Well, when I didnt have any money, anyway :D

Heath
06-23-2006, 05:19 PM
And I wouldn't be surprised if Giles' name ended up in Grimsley's affidavit.

When all in doubt, pull the HGH card..... :rolleyes: :D

KronoRed
06-23-2006, 05:20 PM
Buy cheap and move down

Not that I would ever do such a thing http://lastperson.suncircle.org/Smileys/default/angel1.png

Heath
06-23-2006, 05:21 PM
Useless to the Reds, as in major league Reds, right now since he isn't of any use to the ML team.

Also I know your reference was to flash in the pan relievers. I think he would be able to draw a decent arm.

Deno is nowhere near their best prospect.

He is the best major league-ready prospect that is around.

Unless you have Jerry Narron and his set of Homer Bailey rose-colored glasses.

registerthis
06-23-2006, 06:01 PM
I want to make a run for it with a chance to win it, this team won't win a world series and that (to me) is the only real goal.

But there's absolutely nothing to lead me to believe that 1) this team will be "world series competitive" by 2008, or 2) that pursuing the missing cogs on this team would dismantle any hope of being competitive in 2008 and beyond.

True, the ultimate goal is a WS Title, but that's hardly how we judge a season to be successful. Most people look back very fondly at the '99 squad, and they didin't even make the playoffs. I'm arguing that there are ways this team could be made into playoff contenders that doesn't involve sacrificing the future of the club--a future, I might add, that may or may not ever materialize into something positive.

registerthis
06-23-2006, 06:04 PM
Harold Baines at 40 was a DH with Richie Sexson and David Justice was just breaking down.

Don't you mean Ellis Burks? I remember Burks DHing for them at that time, but I'm pretty sure Harold Baines didn't.

Heath
06-23-2006, 06:08 PM
Don't you mean Ellis Burks? I remember Burks DHing for them at that time, but I'm pretty sure Harold Baines didn't.

In '99 Baines slotted himself in the DH role for a while, Richie Sexson was a young pup.

Burks was the 2001 DH - Marty "The Party" Cordova was the LF. :yikes:

registerthis
06-23-2006, 06:12 PM
In '99 Baines slotted himself in the DH role for a while, Richie Sexson was a young pup.

OK, I'd completely forgotten the 28 games Baines DH'ed for the Indians in '99.

Heath
06-23-2006, 06:16 PM
OK, I'd completely forgotten the 28 games Baines DH'ed for the Indians in '99.

So have most Indians fans along with a week in October.

Ironically, the Indians worst week, was the same week that year that Akili Smith beat the Browns on a last-second TD pass to Carl Pickens.

Bad Week.

KronoRed
06-23-2006, 06:29 PM
But there's absolutely nothing to lead me to believe that 1) this team will be "world series competitive" by 2008, or 2) that pursuing the missing cogs on this team would dismantle any hope of being competitive in 2008 and beyond.

True, the ultimate goal is a WS Title, but that's hardly how we judge a season to be successful. Most people look back very fondly at the '99 squad, and they didin't even make the playoffs. I'm arguing that there are ways this team could be made into playoff contenders that doesn't involve sacrificing the future of the club--a future, I might add, that may or may not ever materialize into something positive.
The trouble I see is this club has so few real prospects in the Minors, the only way to help this year is either dealing some of the O for pitching (my choice) or emptying the minors out for guys who might leave after a year, and then we're buying some scrap players just to fill out the roster in a few years, we'll never be big buyers on the FA market so our only hope for competing every year is those few prospects and hoping they turn out.

edabbs44
06-23-2006, 06:32 PM
The trouble I see is this club has so few real prospects in the Minors, the only way to help this year is either dealing some of the O for pitching (my choice) or emptying the minors out for guys who might leave after a year, and then we're buying some scrap players just to fill out the roster in a few years, we'll never be big buyers on the FA market so our only hope for competing every year is those few prospects and hoping they turn out.
I think Wayne should deal sone Deno-types for BP help and see what happens. If he can't, then so be it. But if they can get a few decent arms in the BP they could at least get some fans in during the dog days of summer when there still is some hope. More fans = more $, more $ = (hopefully) better players next year.

Jpup
06-25-2006, 06:47 AM
I think Wayne should deal sone Deno-types for BP help and see what happens. If he can't, then so be it. But if they can get a few decent arms in the BP they could at least get some fans in during the dog days of summer when there still is some hope. More fans = more $, more $ = (hopefully) better players next year.

I'm not sure how much will be out there, in terms of free agents.

Krusty
06-25-2006, 10:05 AM
I do see these closers and relievers being moved at the trading deadline:

1. Joe Borowski RHP, Florida
2. Mike MacDougal RHP, Kansas City (currently on rehab assignment)
3. Roberto Hernandez RHP, Pittsburgh
4. Mike Remlinger LHP, Atlanta (currently DFA)
5. Scott Williamson RHP, Chicago (NL)
6. LaTroy Hawkins, RHP, Baltimore