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Gallen5862
06-23-2006, 11:35 PM
This is some way to set an example. He sends a player down for not hitting a batter. Now he is defying the commissioner. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2498795&type=story
Guillen doubts he'll attend sensitivity training

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By Enrique Rojas
ESPNdeportes.com


CHICAGO -- Ozzie Guillen doesn't know what a sensitivity course is about, and he doubts he'll ever attend one, even though commissioner Bud Selig ordered the Chicago White Sox manager to attend sensitivity training and fined him an undisclosed amount of money as punishment for his derogatory remarks to journalist Jay Mariotti.


"I don't think I'll be going, I don't think that'll happen," Guillen told ESPNdeportes.com in an interview at U.S. Cellular Field on Friday. The interview was conducted in Spanish.


"I think the commissioner ordered that in order to calm things down, but, obviously, to attend one of those, I'll have to take English lessons first," he added.


Guillen called Mariotti an offensive word, often used to refer to people's sexual preference.


Mariotti is a columnist for the Chicago Sun-Times and collaborates on ESPN's "Around The Horn."


"I'll do what I have to do, at least when I have time, but I don't think I'll take those sensitivity lessons," Guillen said.


"I want to make it clear that I left school a long time ago and that I learned English in the streets. I have three boys at school and I am too old to return to a classroom," he said.


The White Sox, who were a half-game behind Detroit in the AL Central, started a three-game series against the Houston Astros on Friday. They defeated the Astros last October to win the World Series for the first time since 1917.


While White Sox players practiced peacefully, Guillen answered dozens of questions from journalists.


Could it be that Guillen is always caught up in some kind of conflict as a tactic to take pressure off his players?


"I don't think that way, but it has turned out pretty good. In a way, things have turned out like that," Guillen said.


"I've obviously been in Chicago longer than these guys. I've been in this organization and in this city for 17 years and I know better than them how things are handled around here," he added. "I'd rather they talked about me and not about one of them."

edabbs44
06-23-2006, 11:36 PM
What a jerk. Selig should suspend him for 20 games.

savafan
06-23-2006, 11:40 PM
Of those I know who have attended sensitivity training, it is a joke anyway.

LoganBuck
06-23-2006, 11:44 PM
A 3 hour seminar does not make someone a better person.

TeamBoone
06-23-2006, 11:44 PM
Of those I know who have attended sensitivity training, it is a joke anyway.

Yeah, but Sava, that's soooo not the point. He's a super arrogant guy that really needs to be taken down a peg.

People talk about guys who think they're bigger than the game? Definition: Guillen.

savafan
06-23-2006, 11:46 PM
Yeah, but Sava, that's soooo not the point. He's a super arrogant guy that really needs to be taken down a peg.

People talk about guys who think they're bigger than the game? Definition: Guillen.

I'm one of the few I guess who like Guillen. That could be because I'm arrogant too. :D

Reds4Life
06-23-2006, 11:59 PM
Given the current state of MLB and the rampant roid use King Bud should be worrying about more important things than forcing Ozzie to attend some useless class. He was fined, get over it.

reds1869
06-24-2006, 12:11 AM
Ozzie's a jerk. But he's a jerk who is never boring and makes the Sox front page news. Every story needs a villain, why should we deprive ourselves of a very good one?

savafan
06-24-2006, 12:14 AM
I'm just tired of everyone getting so bent out of shape whenever someone says something that they find to be offensive. One of the first things my parents taught me was that sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me. We've allowed people to think they can be hurt by words, and enacted punishment for lapses in judgement when peoples' mouths move faster than their brain...and face it, it happens to all of us from time to time.

edabbs44
06-24-2006, 12:16 AM
I'm just tired of everyone getting so bent out of shape whenever someone says something that they find to be offensive. One of the first things my parents taught me was that sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me. We've allowed people to think they can be hurt by words, and enacted punishment for lapses in judgement when peoples' mouths move faster than their brain...and face it, it happens to all of us from time to time.
Agreed 100%. But I think Ozzie is getting some different treatment here. Turn the tables and have another manager of another nationality call him a derogatory term regarding his ethnic background. There would be mayhem.

Chip R
06-24-2006, 12:20 AM
He'll go. His owner is Bud's best friend. One way or another he'll go. Ozzie missed his calling. He should have been a heel in pro wrestling.

remdog
06-24-2006, 12:26 AM
Obviously, this isn't about sensitivity training. What Guillen is saying is he's macho guy and baseball can't make him do something---sort of like the little kid that tells his parents, "...I'm not eating my peas and you can't make me!" Then the parents tell their head-strong little kid that there's no play time until the peas are gone and, what'a ya' know, the peas are somehow not so bad. Bud's message to Ozzie should be....no play time until you attend the course. :dunno:

I also think that the fact that Ozzie conducted the interview in Spanish was a 'shot' at the local writers in case they were thinking of siding with a fellow scribe. About as subtle as elephant manure in a torn-up peanut patch.

At some point Kenny Williams has to sit Ozzie down though and have a 'heart-to-heart' with the guy because it will eventually boil over into messy molasses and then Ozzie won't be quite the teflon manager---he'll be that annoying, sticky thing on the bottom of your shoe that you're trying to get rid of.

Rem

Razor Shines
06-24-2006, 12:38 AM
I'm just tired of everyone getting so bent out of shape whenever someone says something that they find to be offensive. One of the first things my parents taught me was that sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me. We've allowed people to think they can be hurt by words, and enacted punishment for lapses in judgement when peoples' mouths move faster than their brain...and face it, it happens to all of us from time to time.

I also agree. Why are you going to let someone have the power to offend you with words? It's almost like letting that person control you.

Johnny Vander m
06-24-2006, 12:45 AM
I'm just tired of everyone getting so bent out of shape whenever someone says something that they find to be offensive. One of the first things my parents taught me was that sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me. We've allowed people to think they can be hurt by words, and enacted punishment for lapses in judgement when peoples' mouths move faster than their brain...and face it, it happens to all of us from time to time.


My thoughts also 100%, see my post on the same topic on ORG.

Sava, you just have a way of stating it so much better than I.

dougflynn23
06-24-2006, 01:10 AM
:confused: I want to see Ozzie Guillen treated just like John Rocker was. Rocker said nothing worse than Guillen said, and was suspended for all od spring training and into the season before an arbitrator cut it back. Guillen doesn't have MLBPA protection.

I'm a sales manager, and when even talented employees get insubordinate you have to bust their chops or they never learn. I like the idea of Bud saying, "I'll find you a Spanish-speaking course, but until you schedule it you're off the field".

Johnny Vander m
06-24-2006, 01:23 AM
:confused: I want to see Ozzie Guillen treated just like John Rocker was. Rocker said nothing worse than Guillen said, and was suspended for all od spring training and into the season before an arbitrator cut it back. Guillen doesn't have MLBPA protection.

I'm a sales manager, and when even talented employees get insubordinate you have to bust their chops or they never learn. I like the idea of Bud saying, "I'll find you a Spanish-speaking course, but until you schedule it you're off the field".


I have been a sales manager in the past, at one time over 40 captive agents. I love it when I had a Ozzie type ego, I knew I had a great salesperson.

TeamBoone
06-24-2006, 01:43 AM
Given the current state of MLB and the rampant roid use King Bud should be worrying about more important things than forcing Ozzie to attend some useless class. He was fined, get over it.

That may be your opinion, but it's far from being mine. Fines mean nothing to these people; the dollar amounts are a drop in the bucket to them.

Selig's position carries many responsibilities, and it's his job to oversee the appropriate handling of each and every one of them. He does not have the luxury of choosing only one to deal with at the expense of all the others.

If he ordered Guillen to attend the course, he should see to it that he does... whether it's done first hand or by delegating that responsibility to a staff member. No leader of any organization can afford to handle only one responsibility at a time. That's not how it works.

Razor Shines
06-24-2006, 01:50 AM
That may be your opinion, but it's far from being mine. Fines mean nothing to these people; the dollar amounts are a drop in the bucket to them.

Selig's position carries many responsibilities, and it's his job to oversee the appropriate handling of each and every one of them. He does not have the luxury of choosing only one to deal with at the expense of all the others.

If he ordered Guillen to attend the course, he should see to it that he does... whether it's done first hand or by delegating that responsibility to a staff member. No leader of any organization can afford to handle only one responsibility at a time. That's not how it works.

I agree somewhat, in that even though I do think that the punishment is kind of a waste of time, it should be carried out just because it was ordered. You can't have players and coaches deciding which orders to follow and which ones not to follow because then where does it stop?

KronoRed
06-24-2006, 01:59 AM
Suspend him till he goes

SteelSD
06-24-2006, 02:04 AM
I agree somewhat, in that even though I do think that the punishment is kind of a waste of time, it should be carried out just because it was ordered. You can't have players and coaches deciding which orders to follow and which ones not to follow because then where does it stop?

You're right on both fronts.

No organization can allow that level of insubordination and maintain any degee of credibility.

And you're also correct that sensitivity training is a waste of time with Guillen because sociopaths lack the moral compass needed to process and apply the information they'd receive from such training.

RedsBaron
06-24-2006, 06:57 AM
Suspend him till he goes
I agree.

RFS62
06-24-2006, 07:18 AM
Yeah, Bud isn't sending him to sensitivity training with any thoughts that it will change his personality.

He's doing it as a public admonition. It's all PR.

Call it what it is, a public punishment to appease the masses.

Now he defies Selig in the media? I don't think so.

Newman4
06-24-2006, 09:27 AM
Hey, read this:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/fullcourtpress/2006/06/this_time_ozzie_has_gone_too_f.html

A LOT of people side with Ozzie.

I never pay much attention to Marriotti, does anyone read him regularly here?
Is he that bad?

Unassisted
06-24-2006, 10:07 AM
Of course the training won't fix Ozzie, it's about symbolism. Bud cares deeply about how people perceive the game. It's one of the few things about which he has any public conviction.

I think the predictions that Ozzie gets the John Rocker treatment unless he does the training are on the mark.

redsmetz
06-24-2006, 10:48 AM
:confused: I want to see Ozzie Guillen treated just like John Rocker was. Rocker said nothing worse than Guillen said, and was suspended for all od spring training and into the season before an arbitrator cut it back. Guillen doesn't have MLBPA protection.

I'm a sales manager, and when even talented employees get insubordinate you have to bust their chops or they never learn. I like the idea of Bud saying, "I'll find you a Spanish-speaking course, but until you schedule it you're off the field".

My thinking exactly. There's Spanish language training out there. If nothing else, the man can benefit from anger management and learn some tact. It's fine to call someone on the carpet for what they write, but it's needless to use derogatory language while doing it.

VR
06-24-2006, 11:16 AM
Training won't change him, but it will eliminate any excuse about 'I didn't know' when it comes to racial/ gender offenses.

And I agree about turning the tables. Up here in the Northwest, wetbacks and webfoots are general refernces to ducks. I guess that makes it all ok? :dunno:

pedro
06-24-2006, 12:11 PM
I he doesn't go he'll lose it job. It's that simple. MLB won't put up with it.

oneupper
06-24-2006, 12:14 PM
Guillen said through a WS spokesperson that he'll go.

dabvu2498
06-24-2006, 09:40 PM
Guillen said through a WS spokesperson that he'll go.
I can't stand that. Make one statement in public with your own tongue, then have the team's mouthpiece come out and say something different for you. I think everyone knows what's in his heart.

Even though sensativity training may be useless, Ozzie needs to be taught a lesson. It's unfortunate that I like him as a manager, but can't stand him as a man.

smith288
06-24-2006, 10:14 PM
You're right on both fronts.

No organization can allow that level of insubordination and maintain any degee of credibility.

And you're also correct that sensitivity training is a waste of time with Guillen because sociopaths lack the moral compass needed to process and apply the information they'd receive from such training.
bah... Sensitivity training is forced acceptance of behaviors and lifestyles that collide with your own morals or beliefs. All the training he needed for "sensitivity" is to not say socially unnacceptable words to describe the moron reporter who dodges you after slamming you. Lesson learned on his part.

If the owner tells him to stop with the gay oriented words Guillen will most likely tone it down. He is a strong willed dude running on high octane machismo.

If you force him to some kumbaya class, wave your finger at him and telling him what a jerk he is, it will only encouage him.

FlightRick
06-24-2006, 10:30 PM
I'm going to say what that filthy, filthy poop-mouthed Ozzie Guillen no doubt feels (and what most of the rest of us are thinking): Sensitivity Training is for fags.

There, I said it.

And plus, I tend to take Ozzie at his word that there was no malice towards an entire class of people involved with his choice of phrase-ology, merely an attempt to paint a word picture in which Jay Marrioti may possess certain (admittedly stereotypical) qualities. And in either case? Well, let's just say that a guy who looks like he just stepped out of a "Queer Eye" makeover in most of the non-baseball appearances I've seen him at lately, as Guillen has, doesn't have a whole lot of room to cast stones...

Let's just shut up about this, let Ozzie get back to being an ay-hole who doesn't mean any real harm with any of the things he says but must also be borderline-retarded if he doesn't realize the headaches he's gonna cause himself by saying them, and enjoy the next round of fireworks when the PC Police descend upon him. Cuz I'm already sick of this one.

Newman4
06-25-2006, 12:22 PM
If he called Mariotti a part of the female anatomy or another name for a feline, depending on your point of view, would that be acceptable?

I think Ozzie is just not very good at this talking to reporters thing. I also think he finds this whole thing humorous. He followed up his rant on Mariotti by saying that " he has gay friends, attends WNBA games, went to a Madonna concert and plans to go to the Gay Games in Chicago."

Ozzie goes from the frying pan into the fire.

big boy
06-25-2006, 12:28 PM
Where is the outrage over Brett Myers hitting his wife? Ozzie says a word that is not offensive to most people and it is the centerpiece of national outcry. Brett Myers hits his wife and is on the mound the next day.

It's all about priorities, I guess.

pedro
06-25-2006, 12:32 PM
Where is the outrage over Brett Myers hitting his wife? Ozzie says a word that is not offensive to most people and it is the centerpiece of national outcry. Brett Myers hits his wife and is on the mound the next day.

It's all about priorities, I guess.

Well, I think that is probably a matter a legal matter that has to be sorted out before the team can take action but I agree hitting you're wife is a much bigger deal than calling someone a fag.

Unassisted
06-25-2006, 12:35 PM
Ozzie says a word that is not offensive to most people and it is the centerpiece of national outcry.Doesn't matter what "most people" think is a slur. If "some people" who might be paying customers are offended by a slur, that's enough to warrant action.

Reds4Life
06-25-2006, 12:37 PM
From todays Sun Times by Marriotti. :rolleyes:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay25.html

Quick, somebody call the wahhhhhhhhhhhhhbulance. Talk about a cry baby, he has nerve calling anyone a clown.

big boy
06-25-2006, 12:50 PM
Doesn't matter what "most people" think is a slur. If "some people" who might be paying customers are offended by a slur, that's enough to warrant action.

That logic would apply to many team mascots.

Unassisted
06-25-2006, 01:13 PM
That logic would apply to many team mascots.How the MLB team in Atlanta and its tomahawk chop have escaped Bud's wrath is beyond my understanding. OTOH, I'm convinced that the NCAA won't care until forced to do so by the law.

pedro
06-25-2006, 01:42 PM
How the MLB team in Atlanta and its tomahawk chop have escaped Bud's wrath is beyond my understanding. OTOH, I'm convinced that the NCAA won't care until forced to do so by the law.


how about chief wahoo?

westofyou
06-25-2006, 01:55 PM
how about chief wahoo?
Some Indians call that fight entry level activism, they say there are much bigger fish to fry then a indigenous pickaninny.

pedro
06-25-2006, 02:15 PM
Some Indians call that fight entry level activism, they say there are much bigger fish to fry then a indigenous pickaninny.

Oh, I know that. Doesn't mean it isn't offensive to some, even if I do own an Indians hat myself.

cincinnati chili
06-25-2006, 03:03 PM
I'm going to say what that filthy, filthy poop-mouthed Ozzie Guillen no doubt feels (and what most of the rest of us are thinking): Sensitivity Training is for fags.

There, I said it.



Is that your weak attempt at humor? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it was, but I'm not sure others will be so kind.

Like remedial driving school, sensitivity training may not have an effect. But like horrible drivers who get forced back into class with a bunch of kids, he deserves to suffer though it.

And as some have said before, it will eliminate any "I didn't understand" excuses.

Unassisted
06-25-2006, 05:07 PM
how about chief wahoo?The Chief appears to have been de-emphasized as a symbol in Cleveland. At least I'm going to hang my hat on that as the reason why he didn't leap to mind when I typed that. ;)

RFS62
06-25-2006, 06:03 PM
Chief Wahoo is an disgraceful abomination that should have been dumped long ago.

FlightRick
06-27-2006, 02:00 PM
Is that your weak attempt at humor? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it was, but I'm not sure others will be so kind.

Well of COURSE my choice of wording was purposely over-the-top. But the sentiment behind it was genuine.

Look, for whatever reason, there are some people out there who think it'd be fun to live in a sanitized, politically-correct G-rated world. But then there's the rest of us who think that'd be hell on earth. So some people will look at Sensitivity Training as a worthwhile endeavor, while I, for one, think that there are some folks out there who need to take some Insensitivity Training courses to learn how to have some thicker skin so you can interact with normal society without ducking out for 30 minute weep sessions or getting up on a soap box to tell us the many ways we're going to hell.


Like remedial driving school, sensitivity training may not have an effect. But like horrible drivers who get forced back into class with a bunch of kids, he deserves to suffer though it.

Big difference: a bad and irresponsible driver can cause tangible harm to come to another person through his actions. Someone whose only crime is being a loud-mouthed boor cannot.

MaineRed
06-27-2006, 06:08 PM
Of those I know who have attended sensitivity training, it is a joke anyway.

I don't know anyone who has been ordered to attend such training. But if I did, I am guessing those people would call it a joke (like Guillen did) before they even went.

I am curious though, under what circumstances were the people you know, there?

dsmith421
06-27-2006, 06:14 PM
I never pay much attention to Marriotti, does anyone read him regularly here?
Is he that bad?

He is one of the most insidious, stupid hacks in the national sporting press, and that's saying something.

Like Skip Bayless, he's one of these jackasses who has never accomplished anything of note in his own life, and therefore spends his time tearing down any achievements others come up with.

Personally, I think the fact that a disgusting worm like Mariotti (who, like our resident hack Daugherty, is a terrible writer) is paid to comment on athletics is an indictment of the current "let the reporter make the news" culture so prevalent in sports media today. I won't mention the four-letter word, but you know who I'm talking about.

I can think of about 500 things Guillen could have called Mariotti, many of them far more offensive and profane than "fag" that I and a lot of others would have stood behind him for. It's when you start throwing around bigoted slurs that I have a real problem.

dsmith421
06-27-2006, 06:24 PM
you can interact with normal society without ducking out for 30 minute weep sessions or getting up on a soap box to tell us the many ways we're going to hell.

That last sentence is funny, given that homophobia in this country is primarily based on "30 minute weep sessions" by people on "soap boxes" telling gays "the many ways they are going to hell."

griffeyfreak4
06-27-2006, 11:26 PM
Ozzie probably runs his mouth just so he can get in the newspaper. Without Ozzie, the Sox would probably get a tiny little corner while the Scrubs get articles and articles about how unlucky and cursed they are.