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View Full Version : is the dropoff of Lopez a concern?



flyer85
06-25-2006, 11:46 PM
Is the severe dropoff in offensive performance(compared to last year) a concern? Seeing as he plays the most important defensive position on the field is his defense a concern?

OBP is down to .350 and OPS is .738 Those numbers are just adequate for a SS.

Other OPS
Phillips .818
Freel .832
Aurilia .799
EE .845
Kearns .822
Dunn .910
Jr .814
Hatty .826

Cedric
06-25-2006, 11:48 PM
They aren't even adequate with his terrible defense. I think he has become to enamored with spreading the ball around the diamond. He rarely looks to drive anything.

Just my two cents.

flyer85
06-25-2006, 11:50 PM
Are the Reds on the horns of dilemma with Lopez?

KronoRed
06-25-2006, 11:59 PM
Trade him while he still has value

reds44
06-26-2006, 12:01 AM
They aren't even adequate with his terrible defense. I think he has become to enamored with spreading the ball around the diamond. He rarely looks to drive anything.

Just my two cents.
Yes because Narron told him to do that. Just liek Narron told Dunn to expand the zone. Narron needs to stop trying to change people.

reds44
06-26-2006, 12:01 AM
Trade him while he still has value
I wouldn't be opposed to seeing Felipe and/or Dunn traded for pitching.

KronoRed
06-26-2006, 12:05 AM
Won't be long till Narron tries to "improve" Phillips and Ross ;)

flyer85
06-26-2006, 12:06 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to seeing Felipe and/or Dunn traded for pitching.likely not much of a market to trade pricey position players for quality pitching during the season and I don't think you look to trade them for relief pitchers.

It should be safe to assume both Lopez and Dunn will be Reds throughout the remainder of the 2006 season.

BTW, the players who are experiencing a serious offensive dropoff from 2005 are Jr and Lopez.

Far East
06-26-2006, 12:29 AM
For what it's worth, many of his outs the last week or so have been hard hits, right at 'em.

flyer85
06-26-2006, 12:32 AM
Lopez H% is 31 for the season, he has not been hit unlucky to this point.

oneupper
06-26-2006, 12:34 AM
They aren't even adequate with his terrible defense. I think he has become to enamored with spreading the ball around the diamond. He rarely looks to drive anything.

Just my two cents.

Absolutely. His "swing'' is now a ''slap".

MWM
06-26-2006, 12:36 AM
Yep, Narron was quoted in the paper as saying his objective with Lopez this year was to have him "make more contact" instead of hitting for power.

KronoRed
06-26-2006, 12:55 AM
Yep, Narron was quoted in the paper as saying his objective with Lopez this year was to have him "make more contact" instead of hitting for power.
Turn him into more of an old school SS in other words.:bang:

Why players aren't just allowed to play to their strengths is baffling.

I have to wonder what these guys would have done with the Big Red Machine, tell Morgan to stop walking and start expanding the zone? tell Rose he should stop slapping the ball and start pulling it for more power? tell Foster he K's too much? ;)

flyer85
06-26-2006, 12:59 AM
Turn him into more of an old school SS in other words.:bang:

Why players aren't just allowed to play to their strengths is baffling.the Cubs wave hello and Corey Patterson waves back at them.

It all has to do with preconceived(and often wrong) ideas about what defines success in baseball.

There is more to the game than being scrappy.

Cedric
06-26-2006, 01:01 AM
the Cubs wave hello and Corey Patterson waves back at them.

It all has to do with preconceived(and often wrong) ideas about what defines success in baseball.

There is more to the game than being scrappy.

To be fair I think people overrate the value of managers and hitting coaches on individual players performance. It's obviously something we can't objectively track, but I doubt very much guys like Lopez or Dunn stray far from their own ideas.

At this point I just think Felipe is pressing.

TeamBoone
06-26-2006, 01:06 AM
Today was his first day off.... maybe he's just tired.

redsfan4445
06-26-2006, 01:07 AM
Lopez to me and some of my coworkers also told me he looks lazy this year.. i was so impressed with his change last season and it looks like he is soemtimes in another world and not ready when the pithcer is pitching.. and his ALWAYS slowing up at 1st on groundouts drives me nutz!!!! Philips ALWAYS runs out EVERYTHING. to bad Lopez didnt do this.

what about a blockbuster with the Orioles and get Tejada in a package say

Reds Trade:
Lopez SS,
Edward Valdez SP (AA)
Denorfia CF

FOR:

Tejada SS
Either Chris Ray as our new closer, or Chris Britton who has a 2.81 ERA for middle relief (20 Ks and 9 walks in 25 innings)?

reds44
06-26-2006, 01:08 AM
I really want to hear how he "looks" lazy.

Isn't this the same guy that kept notecards from the things Barry Larkin tought him? I really don't think he is lazy.

flyer85
06-26-2006, 01:11 AM
At this point I just think Felipe is pressing.the season isn't half over yet. The problem the Reds will face in the near future is that Freel needs to play on a regular basis, however, there will likely to be no spot for him.

Cedric
06-26-2006, 01:14 AM
the season isn't half over yet. The problem the Reds will face in the near future is that Freel needs to play on a regular basis, however, there will likely to be no spot for him.

Here is where I call my friend in my best Narron voice "Freely is best suited to play five different positions, we don't need him playing every day and burning himself out."

And what's with baseball and their stupid nicknames for every player? I admit I'm being a little whiny right now, but does anyone else get annoyed by that?

Fullboat
06-26-2006, 02:16 AM
To be fair I think people overrate the value of managers and hitting coaches on individual players performance. It's obviously something we can't objectively track, but I doubt very much guys like Lopez or Dunn stray far from their own ideas.

At this point I just think Felipe is pressing.


Is this the last year of Felipe's contract?That is a pressure situation if he does'nt match last years numbers.

WVRedsFan
06-26-2006, 02:20 AM
Regardless of whether Dunn or Lopez are doing what they want at bat, it smells of tampering IMNSHO. It appears that every player is judged, not by his strengths, but whether they fit the picture in one person's mind of what a player at that position should be. Dunn should swing at more pitches out of the zone saith the chief. The result is a lack of productivity. Lopez needs to make more contact (like a good little shortstop). The result is lack of productivity.

With this team in a horrible hitting slump (for them) you'd think Narron and his brain trust would re-think these positions. If indeed these are their positions. Of course, we heard it out of Jerry's mouth, but if he wins, it's Ok.

Am I missing something here?

kyred14
06-26-2006, 03:32 AM
I wonder if Narron is telling Griffey to swing at every single pitch that doesn't bounce before it gets to him? Lopez and Griffey's fall-offs have been the about as baffling as Milton and EZ's success this year.

princeton
06-26-2006, 07:37 AM
Lopez and Griffey's fall-offs have been the about as baffling as Milton and EZ's success this year.

it's almost like they're.... humans

RANDY IN INDY
06-26-2006, 09:42 AM
Turn him into more of an old school SS in other words.:bang:

Why players aren't just allowed to play to their strengths is baffling.

I have to wonder what these guys would have done with the Big Red Machine, tell Morgan to stop walking and start expanding the zone? tell Rose he should stop slapping the ball and start pulling it for more power? tell Foster he K's too much? ;)

I always kind of laugh when comparisons are made with the Big Red Machine. Why would "anyone" ask them to change a thing? You don't change a winner thats parts perfectly complimented each other. I don't think that is the case with this team.

registerthis
06-26-2006, 11:13 AM
I wonder if Narron is telling Griffey to swing at every single pitch that doesn't bounce before it gets to him?

I highly doubt that Junior's struggles have anything to do with listening to bad advice from Jerry Narron.

Tony Cloninger
06-26-2006, 12:05 PM
When will the time come.....that the blaming of the manager, or hitting coach....for a player who is struggling will come to an end in regards to this team?

It is always someone else's fault........ not lack of adjustments on the part of the player...or the player being thought of as better than he is.

Dunn was hitting just fine in April...and now he is back to slumping in the middle of the year. Just like he seems to always do every year. He nowhere near as bad as he was in the 2nd half of 2002 and most of 2003. But it's not like he is far of from his last 2 years.

Someone like Team Clark could end all this by just asking Narron or Chambliss if they are truly trying to change any player...to the detriment of that player.
And if that is the case.....to ask him how this helps the player if he is doing worse than before?

I know Sweet Lou wanted Paul O'Niell to hit for more power and drove Paul crazy (although their personalities were almost the same..so they just seemed to grate on each other beacuse of that) It worked in 1991 when Paul hit homers but his strength was as a line drive hitter.

TeamBoone
06-26-2006, 01:24 PM
Someone like Team Clark could end all this by just asking Narron or Chambliss if they are truly trying to change any player...to the detriment of that player.
And if that is the case.....to ask him how this helps the player if he is doing worse than before?



I doubt it has occurred to Narron or Chambliss that their coaching "advice" may be a detriment.

Tony Cloninger
06-26-2006, 02:15 PM
Well it's not a detriment to Phillips or Ross........but when their BA/OPS go down....will it be?


When Paul Householder did not blossom into the superstar or at least above avg. ballplayer that most people, who were around to remember his hype...thought he would be. Was it beacuse of bad coaching on the part of The Klu...or was it beacuse he just was not that good? Or was it his "intangibles"...or the fact he had nothing around him to protect him the batting order?

Dan Driessen......supposed to be a BA Champion....so touted by Sparky and Klu. Was it beacuse of bad coaching..... a couple of Bob Shirley fastball's off his wrist in 1978.... or just the fact he was exposed and could not help carry the team after Rose left, Morgan was injury prone and below avg for 78-79 and Bench was half the player after 1978?

There are a lot of variables that come into play as to why players are having off years or just not developing. I just have a problem with it always being dumped on the lap of whoever the manager or coach is.
Boone i can understand why...... he was known as a meddling tinkerer (see Johnny Damon and a host of too many reasons to list now) Miley seemed to leave people alone.... Narron seems to have a problem with an RA fixation, but he also seems to for the most part, let players play but get on them if they make mental errors or keep repeating the same mistakes. At least he is sticking with Lopez and not just giving up on him beacuse he is not a vet.

Narron's problem is no bullpen.... which makes any RP he brings in, look like a bad decision. Sure i wish Coffey was used sometimes for than 1 inning...but then all the complaints about he is being overworked come up and he is still a loser in most people's eyes beacuse of it.
The bench is spotty, to be polite as possible, and there is no reason for needing an extra pitcher at the expense of the weak bench. Bring up another long/set up type guy for the bullpen to eliminate the need for 1 extra pitcher.
I think the FO...and most of us....find it hard to believe after seing years of 5 innings and done type starts......that they still feel like they need that extra pitcher to avoid blowing out the bullpen.

This post is veering of course..... but i was rolling so i went with it.

RANDY IN INDY
06-26-2006, 03:35 PM
:beerme:
When will the time come.....that the blaming of the manager, or hitting coach....for a player who is struggling will come to an end in regards to this team?

It is always someone else's fault........ not lack of adjustments on the part of the player...or the player being thought of as better than he is.

Dunn was hitting just fine in April...and now he is back to slumping in the middle of the year. Just like he seems to always do every year. He nowhere near as bad as he was in the 2nd half of 2002 and most of 2003. But it's not like he is far of from his last 2 years.

Someone like Team Clark could end all this by just asking Narron or Chambliss if they are truly trying to change any player...to the detriment of that player.
And if that is the case.....to ask him how this helps the player if he is doing worse than before?

I know Sweet Lou wanted Paul O'Niell to hit for more power and drove Paul crazy (although their personalities were almost the same..so they just seemed to grate on each other beacuse of that) It worked in 1991 when Paul hit homers but his strength was as a line drive hitter.

pedro
06-26-2006, 03:38 PM
I thought this thread was about Lopez?

RANDY IN INDY
06-26-2006, 03:41 PM
Lopez and Dunn were singled out for sympathy because of Narron's and Chambliss' tinkering of their approach. Ultimately, it is the hitter's responsibility when he goes to the plate. When they are going good, the coaching is great. When they go south, the coaching stinks. I don't quite buy it. Everyone is going to struggle during the season at some time or another.

smith288
06-26-2006, 03:58 PM
I seriously doubt Lopez goes up there thinking "well, if its a pitch on the middle/in, ill rake it...wait... WWJND?"

TeamSelig
06-26-2006, 04:12 PM
I wonder if Lopez was on roids? It almost makes sense...

smith288
06-26-2006, 04:12 PM
I wonder if Lopez was on roids? It almost makes sense...
Furthest from my mind about Lopez.

pedro
06-26-2006, 04:13 PM
I will say that this thread is the first I've heard of Narron or anyone else tinkering with Lopez.

RANDY IN INDY
06-26-2006, 04:35 PM
When a guy has some talent, and he struggles, it almost always comes up.

OnBaseMachine
06-26-2006, 04:45 PM
I will say that this thread is the first I've heard of Narron or anyone else tinkering with Lopez.

I heard about it during the game in which Dunn hit a walk-off HR. Steve Phillips actually mentioned it during one of Lopez's atbats.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1024396&postcount=574

KronoRed
06-26-2006, 05:03 PM
I always kind of laugh when comparisons are made with the Big Red Machine. Why would "anyone" ask them to change a thing? You don't change a winner thats parts perfectly complimented each other. I don't think that is the case with this team.
I wasn't comparing the players.

I was commenting on coaches telling players to do something else when what they have always done appears to be workings.

KronoRed
06-26-2006, 05:04 PM
I heard about it during the game in which Dunn hit a walk-off HR. Steve Phillips actually mentioned it during one of Lopez's atbats.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1024396&postcount=574
Can you turst a cub guy? :evil:

RANDY IN INDY
06-26-2006, 06:03 PM
I wasn't comparing the players.

I was commenting on coaches telling players to do something else when what they have always done appears to be workings.

When what's working translates into winning, there's much less room for all the speculation about who's at fault and what's right and wrong.;)

MWM
06-26-2006, 07:44 PM
Then what's the point of even having hitting or pitching coaches if they have no influence on the players? Why not just get rid of them and save the money if what they do doesn't impact a player's ability to hit, field, or pitch. I don't think that recognizing that coaches do play a role in what players try to do is removing blame from the players. Seems to some folks everything is either all black or all white. Unfotunately, the world, and baseball is no exception, is full of complexity and ambiguity. It's never quite as simple as one or the other. It's almost ALWAYS somewhere in the middle.

TeamBoone
06-26-2006, 08:20 PM
I heard about it during the game in which Dunn hit a walk-off HR. Steve Phillips actually mentioned it during one of Lopez's atbats.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1024396&postcount=574

How would he know?

RANDY IN INDY
06-27-2006, 12:43 AM
Then what's the point of even having hitting or pitching coaches if they have no influence on the players? Why not just get rid of them and save the money if what they do doesn't impact a player's ability to hit, field, or pitch. I don't think that recognizing that coaches do play a role in what players try to do is removing blame from the players. Seems to some folks everything is either all black or all white. Unfotunately, the world, and baseball is no exception, is full of complexity and ambiguity. It's never quite as simple as one or the other. It's almost ALWAYS somewhere in the middle.

With major leaguers, making the kind of money that they make today, some are coachable and some just aren't. Some players simply won't listen or put in the time to make themselves better. I think that you find that the hitting, fielding and pitching coaches work with the players that are receptive. I know they get tired of banging their heads against the wall. Some guys you are going to be able to help. Some guys won't give you the time of day and know it all. I know I wouldn't bang my head against that wall.

On the flip side, there are probably some coaches out there that are part of the good ol' boy network (although I don't think it exists as much as it once did) who don't do the people they are working with, justice.

Most of all, I think you have to gain the confidence of the players you are coaching. The ones that you can help, you do. The others will sink or swim on their own.

redsrule2500
06-27-2006, 01:51 AM
this reminds me of how people got on Casey for hitting for contact and not power, and playing 1B.

Stupid!

Jpup
06-27-2006, 03:50 AM
How would he know?

maybe Krivsky or Narron told him before the game?

GAC
06-27-2006, 09:56 AM
When will the time come.....that the blaming of the manager, or hitting coach....for a player who is struggling will come to an end in regards to this team?

It is always someone else's fault........ not lack of adjustments on the part of the player...or the player being thought of as better than he is.

Dunn was hitting just fine in April...and now he is back to slumping in the middle of the year. Just like he seems to always do every year. He nowhere near as bad as he was in the 2nd half of 2002 and most of 2003. But it's not like he is far of from his last 2 years.

Good post.

Isn't it also funny how people were heaping praise on guys like Chambliss in April, and giving him the credit for our team OB% (which is still quite good)?

When these players were an offensive juggernaut in April, did those of you loving to find any and every thing to blame on Narron and the coaching staff, give them the credit for the team's performance then?

Funny... when a player performs, it's all on the player. When they slump.... it's all on the coaching staff.

I personally, after watching some of the players on this team for the last few years, question their passion for wanting to improve. But I think that about alot of today's ballplayers.

It seems there is alot less Tony Gynns and Pete Roses in today's game, who even when succeeding, never stood still or became content. They were driven.

Player's attitudes have greatly changed, where complacency is common place anymore.

Why are players like Ryan Freel, which everyone loves to watch, NOW an anomaly? ;)

gonelong
06-27-2006, 10:11 AM
I personally, after watching some of the players on this team for the last few years, question their passion for wanting to improve. But I think that about alot of today's ballplayers.

It seems there is alot less Tony Gynns and Pete Roses in today's game, who even when succeeding, never stood still or became content. They were driven.

Player's attitudes have greatly changed, where complacency is common place anymore.

Why are players like Ryan Freel, which everyone loves to watch, NOW an anomaly? ;)

If you took a sheer hours to hours comparison I'd have to guess that today's players put in way more hours than yester years counterparts.

Part of that is the money aspect. The payoffs are so huge that people are willing to put the work in.

I know Ryan Freel plays hard, but I have never heard anything that would lead me to believe he works any harder than any of the other guys.

GL

RANDY IN INDY
06-27-2006, 10:58 AM
The key is not the hours that they put in, but what they do with those hours. Coach John Wooden once said, "Never mistake activity for achievement," and I believe there is a lot of truth in that phrase.

Cal Ripken Sr. once heard someone say, "Practice makes perfect."

He told them that he strongly disagreed with that statement. He said, "Only perfect practice makes perfect. It's like a bank, gentlemen. You can't take anything out unless you put something in."

westofyou
06-27-2006, 11:13 AM
Player's attitudes have greatly changed, where complacency is common place anymore.
Baseball today isn't what it should be.The players do not try and learn the fine points of the game like they used to, instead they are content to just get by..

Bill Joyce 1916

RANDY IN INDY
06-27-2006, 11:19 AM
They've been around forever, but the money in today's game has made more players get a little more, shall I say, "comfortable."

gonelong
06-27-2006, 12:26 PM
The key is not the hours that they put in, but what they do with those hours. Coach John Wooden once said, "Never mistake activity for achievement," and I believe there is a lot of truth in that phrase.

Cal Ripken Sr. once heard someone say, "Practice makes perfect."

He told them that he strongly disagreed with that statement. He said, "Only perfect practice makes perfect. It's like a bank, gentlemen. You can't take anything out unless you put something in."

I agree with what you said here.

Do you think the hours that are put in today are somehow less productive than the hours that were put in 20, 30, 40 years ago? My guess is that they are vastly more productive.

GL

princeton
06-27-2006, 12:54 PM
Isn't it also funny how people were heaping praise on guys like Chambliss in April, and giving him the credit for our team OB% (which is still quite good)?

When these players were an offensive juggernaut in April, did those of you loving to find any and every thing to blame on Narron and the coaching staff, give them the credit for the team's performance then?

didn't you answer your second paragraph when you wrote your first paragraph? answered, then asked?




It seems there is alot less Tony Gynns and Pete Roses in today's game, who even when succeeding, never stood still or became content. They were driven.

Player's attitudes have greatly changed, where complacency is common place anymore.

Why are players like Ryan Freel, which everyone loves to watch, NOW an anomaly? ;)

players are spending too much time on the internet

RANDY IN INDY
06-27-2006, 01:01 PM
I agree with what you said here.

Do you think the hours that are put in today are somehow less productive than the hours that were put in 20, 30, 40 years ago? My guess is that they are vastly more productive.

GL

Depends on who is putting in the hours and what their attitude is.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are instructors out there today, from Little League, all the way to MLB, that have put in the time and offer a wealth of knowledge in the fundamentals that is greater than any other time in the history of the game. My son, at 9, probably has already had better instruction than I had by the time I was 15, and his fundamentals are wonderful when he works at it. That is the key. "When and how he works at it."

Then again, there have always been a lot of instructors with a wealth of knowledge to offer. The tools that players and instructors have at their disposal are greater than ever before. The opportunity to fine tune your game, if you have the talent, is at its peak. I feel that the best instructors treat their players as individuals, and try to tweak their games based on what the player "brings to the table." I am a firm believer in "If it ain't broke, don't go messin' with it." That is not to say that players, particularly those at the highest levels, cannot work on parts of their game that are weak and get even better. While there are certain fundamental truths that hold true in the game, it is very obvious to me that there are a lot of different ways to go about executing those fundamentals. Just look at all the different stances, pitching motions and so on................. The fine line comes in today when you create "Paralysis by Analysis." There is no doubt that too much information and coaching can be a detriment. Sometimes, it is best to follow Tony Perez's sage advice and just "See de ball, hit de ball."

The key to me is this. Know your players and know what they can and can't process. Try to keep them positive and relaxed, peak their curiosity and always try to stay a step ahead of them. The best coaches know and practice this.

gonelong
06-27-2006, 01:20 PM
Depends on who is putting in the hours and what their attitude is.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are instructors out there today, from Little League, all the way to MLB, that have put in the time and offer a wealth of knowledge in the fundamentals that is greater than any other time in the history of the game. My son, at 9, probably has already had better instruction than I had by the time I was 15, and his fundamentals are wonderful when he works at it. That is the key. "When and how he works at it."

I see what you are saying. I guess my point it I don't see a drop off in skill level, I just see different skills being favored in todays game. How concerned should Player A be with his bunting skills if he is only called on to bunt once or twice a year? He should work enough not to be foreign to the concept, but it isn't time efficient for him to be spending hour upon hour refining his bunting. He'd be better of studying pitch sequences, defensive alignments, etc.

I loved baseball as a kid. I can't imagine anyone taking any more swings than I did as a kid. If I grew up today, I am not even sure I'd play baseball at all.

When I grew up we had one B/W TV with 4 channels. We didn't have A/C in the house. The decision for me to head outside and play ball was a relatively easy one, what the heck else was I going to do? It was just me and my brothers.

Todays kid has to leave his pristine indoor climate for a hot, dusty, and muggy outdoors. He has his own TV with movie channels and channels directed specifically towards him. He can get on the Internet and explore whatever is interesting to him. He likely has a cellphone and Ipod and is in constant contact with his buddies.

I am half-way shocked anymore when I see a kid in his teens outdoors shooting hoops in his driveway.

GL

RANDY IN INDY
06-27-2006, 01:58 PM
I see what you are saying. I guess my point it I don't see a drop off in skill level, I just see different skills being favored in todays game. How concerned should Player A be with his bunting skills if he is only called on to bunt once or twice a year? He should work enough not to be foreign to the concept, but it isn't time efficient for him to be spending hour upon hour refining his bunting. He'd be better of studying pitch sequences, defensive alignments, etc.

I loved baseball as a kid. I can't imagine anyone taking any more swings than I did as a kid. If I grew up today, I am not even sure I'd play baseball at all.

When I grew up we had one B/W TV with 4 channels. We didn't have A/C in the house. The decision for me to head outside and play ball was a relatively easy one, what the heck else was I going to do? It was just me and my brothers.

Todays kid has to leave his pristine indoor climate for a hot, dusty, and muggy outdoors. He has his own TV with movie channels and channels directed specifically towards him. He can get on the Internet and explore whatever is interesting to him. He likely has a cellphone and Ipod and is in constant contact with his buddies.

I am half-way shocked anymore when I see a kid in his teens outdoors shooting hoops in his driveway.

GL

Kids definitely have more options, albeit, a lot of them not so good.

As far as skills and time efficiency, I always see players wanting to work and spend time on the parts of their game that are superior, and not on the things that they don't do as effectively. It's a natural thing to always want to look good and feel good about all the things that you do well. Unfortunately, the game has a way of finding you out, and those things that you are not willing to spend time on will rear their ugly heads at the most inopportune moments. All that time you spent in practice, looking and feeling good about yourself, will evaporate in a single moment in a game when you don't execute that little thing that you don't like to work on in practice.

I agree with you, in the premise, that guys who are not called on to bunt very often, should not spend an inordinate amount of time on it, but I do believe that having the skill is nothing but another weapon in your arsenal. It really is not the hardest thing to master. If you can catch a baseball, you can bunt it. Spend a little time, daily, to keep the knife sharp, and use it occasionally when it is given Pitch sequences and defensive alignments are great things to study, but you have to have the ability and skill set necessary to execute and overcome them.

In the end, it all takes a lot of work and is much harder than it looks to the average fan on TV.

GAC
06-27-2006, 08:33 PM
The key is not the hours that they put in, but what they do with those hours. Coach John Wooden once said, "Never mistake activity for achievement," and I believe there is a lot of truth in that phrase.

Cal Ripken Sr. once heard someone say, "Practice makes perfect."

He told them that he strongly disagreed with that statement. He said, "Only perfect practice makes perfect. It's like a bank, gentlemen. You can't take anything out unless you put something in."

You said it far more eloquently then I ever could have Randy. :thumbup:

GAC
06-27-2006, 08:46 PM
I see what you are saying. I guess my point it I don't see a drop off in skill level, I just see different skills being favored in todays game. How concerned should Player A be with his bunting skills if he is only called on to bunt once or twice a year? He should work enough not to be foreign to the concept, but it isn't time efficient for him to be spending hour upon hour refining his bunting. He'd be better of studying pitch sequences, defensive alignments, etc.

I loved baseball as a kid. I can't imagine anyone taking any more swings than I did as a kid. If I grew up today, I am not even sure I'd play baseball at all.

When I grew up we had one B/W TV with 4 channels. We didn't have A/C in the house. The decision for me to head outside and play ball was a relatively easy one, what the heck else was I going to do? It was just me and my brothers.

Todays kid has to leave his pristine indoor climate for a hot, dusty, and muggy outdoors. He has his own TV with movie channels and channels directed specifically towards him. He can get on the Internet and explore whatever is interesting to him. He likely has a cellphone and Ipod and is in constant contact with his buddies.

I am half-way shocked anymore when I see a kid in his teens outdoors shooting hoops in his driveway.

GL

Good post GL.

I wasn't referring to a drop off in skill level. The skill is definitely there.

It's the attitude or commitment (passion) to develop and take those skills to their highest level.

The reason I loved guys like Rose (and others) was because I have/had the same passion - really an obsession - for the game, and making sure I was doing everything I could, plus some, to raise the level of my game, and gain that advantage.

And again, I may be wrong - it's just a personal observation on my part - but I've been playing following the game since the early 60's, and I just don't see that commitment/passion with alot of today's players.

Guys like Freel, IMO, are not really gifted IMO in natural ability. Rose wasn't either. But they have tha "fire" to succeed, which drives them. They had to make that extra effort.

I just wonder how much farther some of today's ballplayers - and I'm speaking in generalities here - who are so gifted naturally, would raise the level of their game if they seemed to possess that same fire that drives these "scrappy" players we love to watch.

And that is not saying going "outside" of your game. If one cannot bunt, then they shouldn't press it.... if they don't possess speed, then they shouldn't be trying to steal.... if they don't possess power, then don;t be consistently trying to swing for the fences.

It's staying within you gifts/game, yet really pushing the limits to perfect it.

gonelong
06-28-2006, 01:21 AM
And again, I may be wrong - it's just a personal observation on my part - but I've been playing following the game since the early 60's, and I just don't see that commitment/passion with alot of today's players.

IMO todays players have a much higher level of commitment to the game. Passion ... maybe/maybe not, I won't really debate that one. IMO todays guys put more hours into their game than their counterparts from years past, and they have to tools available to be more efficient and to go to greater lengths than the players of the past. A triple whammy.

Guys today are afforded the opportunity to work at their game all year round, and the vast majority of them do. Guy's in the 40-60's more often than not have off-season jobs and used spring training to knock off the rust. Todays guys work out year round, their physical conditioning is light years ahead of those from 40-50 years ago. Its my perception that todays players are players ... for the most part, year-round.



Guys like Freel, IMO, are not really gifted IMO in natural ability. Rose wasn't either. But they have tha "fire" to succeed, which drives them. They had to make that extra effort.


I like try hard guys. I think every roster should have a Freel or Eckstien on it. Freel plays hard without a doubt, though I have never seen anything reported that would lead me to believe that Freel works harder or prepares harder than the rest of the Reds roster.

Freel is naturally gifted with speed, and lots of it. He is probably faster than 97% of the people on this earth. Thats a pretty serious gift IMO. If he had average MLB speed he likely wouldn't have gotten past AA no matter what his level of desire.

Rose was gifted with a decent amount of speed and great durability/stamina, he was able to play every day. Rose had very good hand/eye coordination. I really can't agree that a guy that played MLB for 20+ seasons and has 4,000+ hits wasn't really all that gifted to begin with.

GL

RANDY IN INDY
06-28-2006, 09:38 AM
Pete could hit the baseball. Tremendous hand eye coordination. His greatest gift as a player may have been that he was stubborn and refused to believe that there was a better baseball player, anywhere, than he was. Pete was simply driven to be the best.