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Spitball
06-27-2006, 10:03 AM
Could you justify trading Ross if one of the contenders, say Detroit, Boston, or New York lost its starting catcher to injury and was offering bullpen help for him?

Would you rather take a significantly lesser return (say a double-A second baseman) for LaRue?

Is this a career year for Ross and will his value ever be higher? Is it better to unload LaRue? What do you think?

redsfan30
06-27-2006, 10:58 AM
If the right bullpen arm/arms came back this way, I'd be very receptive to trading him.

penantboundreds
06-27-2006, 11:00 AM
i worry about trading him because i feel larue is the most over rated catcher (catching wise) ever. i just feel ross does more scouting and cares more which is huge imho. keep ross, trade larue send cash with him and get a decent to good bullpen arm

redsfan30
06-27-2006, 11:14 AM
i worry about trading him because i feel larue is the most over rated catcher (catching wise) ever. i just feel ross does more scouting and cares more which is huge imho. keep ross, trade larue send cash with him and get a decent to good bullpen arm
1. Saying a player doesn't care is foolish in my opinion.

2. With LaRue's numbers this season, how exactly are we going to get the decent to good bullpen arm?

M2
06-27-2006, 11:16 AM
Could you justify trading Ross if one of the contenders, say Detroit, Boston, or New York lost its starting catcher to injury and was offering bullpen help for him?

I'd move Ross for pitching in a heartbeat.

RedsManRick
06-27-2006, 11:19 AM
If any of the three catchers could get us an above average bullpen arm, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Fact of the matter is that there really isn't a ton of difference between the 3 when it's all said and done. Yes, Ross has had a great first half. Last year it was Javy. To expect Ross to OPS over .900 is pure folly.

If you could flip him for a Duchscherer or Donnelly, you shouldn't have a second thought about.

pedro
06-27-2006, 11:22 AM
i worry about trading him because i feel larue is the most over rated catcher (catching wise) ever. i just feel ross does more scouting and cares more which is huge imho. keep ross, trade larue send cash with him and get a decent to good bullpen arm

ross does more scouting huh? on what exactly are you basing your opinion?

Interesting, from what I've read Larue does a good bit of homework regarding opposing hitters. In fact he had a desk at his locker at which he kept hit charts of opposing batters .... that is until the Reds had the desk removed during "chair gate"

registerthis
06-27-2006, 11:27 AM
Such fickle fans we are.

We have a guy who puts up some of the most consistent numbers for any catcher in the league over the last 6 years, and he's suddenly a lazy oaf who's not worth a bag of balls, whilst a guy having the half-season of his life with no prior track record whatsoever is annointed king of the hill?

If the Reds can move Ross for pitching, they should do it yesterday. Track records aren't written in tstone, but they're worth something, folks. I recall a lot of pople thinking that Valentin should be the everyday catcher based off of his good second half last year, and we see how that's worked out.

M2
06-27-2006, 11:27 AM
ross does more scouting huh? on what exactly are you basing your opinion?

Interesting, from what I've read Larue does a good bit of homework regarding opposing hitters. In fact he had a desk at his locker at which he kept hit charts of opposing batters .... that is until the Reds had the desk removed during "chair gate"

Next thing you'll insist that the team has pitched well this season when LaRue's behind the plate or invent some statistic that shows LaRue's one of the better throwing catchers in the game or claim that LaRue has accepted the three-catcher rotation without complaint. Why can't you just accept that he's a lazy, awful person?

pedro
06-27-2006, 11:32 AM
Next thing you'll insist that the team has pitched well this season when LaRue's behind the plate or claim that LaRue has accepted the three-catcher rotation without complaint.

Nuh uh. David Ross is the best catcher of the last 70 games EVER. In fact he's put up better numbers than Johnny Bench's career numbers so it's quite obvious to me that David Ross is the best catcher the Reds have EVER had.

Spitball
06-27-2006, 11:33 AM
If any of the three catchers could get us an above average bullpen arm, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Fact of the matter is that there really isn't a ton of difference between the 3 when it's all said and done. Yes, Ross has had a great first half. Last year it was Javy. To expect Ross to OPS over .900 is pure folly.

If you could flip him for a Duchscherer or Donnelly, you shouldn't have a second thought about.

Exactly, and if it makes sense to trade from a surplus, who has the most value, Ross, LaRue, or Valentin? I'm quite certain Ross, having a career year, would bring more than either of the other two. Trading Ross to bring in bullpen help seems to be justifiable.

The_jbh
06-27-2006, 11:40 AM
As a player w/o intangibles I'd trade Ross for a second. No one on this team is untradeable. However the one thing that concerns me is Ross' relationship with Arroyo. If Arroyo's production drops without his battery mate, the effectiveness of a new reliever is completely negated my the inferior production we'd get out of our #1 starter. If the right deal is out there I guess you have to take that risk. Hopefulyl Arroyo would get comfortable with LaRue.

Obviously I'd much rather deal LaRue but... like many have said, how are we gonna get a good arm off LaRue's production.

Joseph
06-27-2006, 11:43 AM
Not to go all Jim Rome here but

Could you justify trading Ross..Yes

But wait, I didn't say what for....yes.

It's just a bullpen arm....yes

If the player has a heartbeat and enough talent to make it to the bigs, then yes. Ross is having a career year and if dealing him [like we should have Valentin last season] means we get some talent back in return before the return to career norms then yes, you trade David Ross. He's the only catcher who we could trade and get good return on at present.

flyer85
06-27-2006, 11:54 AM
We have a guy who puts up some of the most consistent numbers for any catcher in the league over the last 6 years, and he's suddenly a lazy oaf who's not worth a bag of balls, whilst a guy having the half-season of his life with no prior track record whatsoever is annointed king of the hillthat pretty well sums it up

Falls City Beer
06-27-2006, 12:37 PM
What I find deeply troubling about the Larue/Ross situation is that neither Narron nor Krivsky seems able to understand the importance of giving Larue playing time in order for him to bring up his numbers for a trade. They're just letting a potential commodity rot on the vine.

At least DanO/Narron understood the concept of genuinely platooning Kearns and Pena last season...and well, that's reaped more than a few benefits for the club.

Falls City Beer
06-27-2006, 12:46 PM
Another thing about the issue of trading Ross: I really don't think the guy's going to bring much in trade, as I believe people trade as much for reputation/history of consistency as they do for gaudy half-seasons.

Phhhl
06-27-2006, 12:46 PM
What I find deeply troubling about the Larue/Ross situation is that neither Narron nor Krivsky seems able to understand the importance of giving Larue playing time in order for him to bring up his numbers for a trade. They're just letting a potential commodity rot on the vine.

At least DanO/Narron understood the concept of genuinely platooning Kearns and Pena last season...and well, that's reaped more than a few benefits for the club.

That's a very good point. Team's should understand that LaRue is a very good catcher based on the last five years or so, and his current playing time should have nothing to do with that assessment. But, the reality of having him rot on the bench will drive down his value. Teams will suggest he is hurt or h's getting old to manipulate the negotiations, even when there is nothing to it. It doesn't make a lot of sense, but that is how baseball has always worked.

westofyou
06-27-2006, 12:54 PM
whilst a guy having the half-season of his life with no prior track record whatsoever is annointed king of the hill?
Aaaa...yup, 99 at bats is not a career.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ed/King_of_the_Hill_alley.jpg/300px-King_of_the_Hill_alley.jpg

Az Red
06-27-2006, 01:36 PM
What I find deeply troubling about the Larue/Ross situation is that neither Narron nor Krivsky seems able to understand the importance of giving Larue playing time in order for him to bring up his numbers for a trade. They're just letting a potential commodity rot on the vine.

At least DanO/Narron understood the concept of genuinely platooning Kearns and Pena last season...and well, that's reaped more than a few benefits for the club.


Ahhhh ... damned if you do, damned if you don't ...

The Reds are sending out the catcher that gives them the best chance to win now. Can't blame them for that. One thing I think we all agree on, the Reds won't have these three catchers come July 31st.

Guacarock
06-27-2006, 01:49 PM
Could you justify trading Ross if one of the contenders, say Detroit, Boston, or New York lost its starting catcher to injury and was offering bullpen help for him?

Not to Boston or New York. Their bullpens are average.

But maybe to Detroit, the Chicago White Sox, Minnesota or Oakland. Now those are teams with much more exceptional bullpens, including some guys who would be starters for the Reds.

Our best bet to pick up bullpen help isn't going to be flipping a catcher to a contender, but rather, swallowing a big contract from a team that has fallen out of contention.

M2
06-27-2006, 02:18 PM
I'd love to see the Reds pluck Juan Rincon off the Twins, but he's probably not on the block.

OnBaseMachine
06-27-2006, 02:48 PM
I'd love to see the Reds pluck Juan Rincon off the Twins, but he's probably not on the block.

Yep.

Rafael Betancourt would also look good in a Reds uniform. Damaso Marte too.

KronoRed
06-27-2006, 03:32 PM
If someone offers a lot for Ross do the deal yesterday.

1 year wonders anyone?

Marc D
06-27-2006, 03:40 PM
Any quality MLB bullpen arm that isn't a one year rental and I trade Ross in a heartbeat.

Given my druthers I trade LaRue for the AA prospect and payflex. I don't know if Ross will better than LaRue over the long haul but at worst he will give you adequate offensive production from a younger and cheaper player.

Ltlabner
06-27-2006, 04:15 PM
LaRue does have the track record of success and other GM's are smart enough to recognize that when talking trades. But as pointed out they'll throw up this years production to try to get the upper arm.

Of course, if they trot Jason out every day for a month and he doesn't get going the board will be screaming for Narron's head. "Why isn't he going with the hot hand?!?!?!" is all we'll hear.

Ross is putting up spectacular numbers. Everybody seems to poo-poo them because they are only partial year numbers. Yet, the reason they cite for his falling apart in the future is his numbers in the past....which are based on partial year numbers. So we really don't know what is realistic to expect in the future.

So it's the age old crap shoot. Ross may be a long-term, cheaper, younger solution. And he may very well fall apart and never duplicate this year. LaRue may catch fire as he usually does, or he may be washed up and you're stuck with a $4m dud.

To answer the thread question, I'd trade any player on the team for the right combination of pitching.

Mario-Rijo
06-27-2006, 05:37 PM
To answer the question yes I could justify trading Ross for an exceptional arm. Not a pulse or an average arm, maybe slightly to above average. Why only above average or exceptional, that's easy?!

I for one am convinced that Ross is the better asset for the pitching staff, the offensive side is secondary to this. Not only that but I also believe that Ross is the better offensive catcher as well. Not because his #'s are better this season, but because he goes up to that plate looking to do the right thing for the situation. His plate discipline is far & away better than Larue's and I don't need a large sample size to determine that. His pure power is as good or better than Larue's and he also seems to center it better and more consistently. The only thing Larue may have over Ross is his gun, and I am not 100% positive that is the case due to not seeing Ross enough to know.

In other words he is willing, able, younger, healthier, cheaper and potentially FAR better than is Larue. I don't want to make it appear that I am knocking Larue because he has value due to his career #'s, his strong arm and good leadership qualities. All I am saying is that if I have my druthers I take far less if I have too to deal Jason and hold on to a guy whom by all accounts (before he got here and since) has had a reputation for being a very good defensive catcher and game caller and whom never got the AB's to mature offensively.

If I'm Wayne I don't deal this commodity unless it brings us an exceptionally talented and farely young arm. And then if that happens I have a fresh Larue down the stretch.

westofyou
06-27-2006, 05:45 PM
Jason LaRue led the NL in percent of pitches swung and missed last year (24.0)

Dunn was 9th (18.5)

Spitball
06-27-2006, 07:05 PM
Our best bet to pick up bullpen help isn't going to be flipping a catcher to a contender, but rather, swallowing a big contract from a team that has fallen out of contention.

I'd love to see the Cubs throw in the flag and realize that both Scott Eyre and Bob Howry are expensive luxuries when you're fighting for the cellar. I believe those two would be a huge step towards turning the Reds' bullpen around. Would Travis Chick or Justin Germano do it?

bottom_feeder
06-27-2006, 10:27 PM
Our best bet to pick up bullpen help isn't going to be flipping a catcher to a contender, but rather, swallowing a big contract from a team that has fallen out of contention.

Great observation Guacarock. The Reds don't have a lot of excess talent to trade. The best bet would be to swallow a big contract from another team. That would bolster the pen without giving up much talent.

Guacarock
06-28-2006, 02:02 PM
I'd love to see the Cubs throw in the flag and realize that both Scott Eyre and Bob Howry are expensive luxuries when you're fighting for the cellar. I believe those two would be a huge step towards turning the Reds' bullpen around. Would Travis Chick or Justin Germano do it?

My understanding is that Eyre's contract rules out a trade happening this year. He signed his three-year deal with the Cubs last winter. The earliest he can be dealt is '07, and even then, he can designate up to 10 teams to which he can refuse a trade.

By contrast, I believe Howry is available -- just expensive. He's signed for three years as well -- $3 million this season, rising to $4 million in '07 and '08.

Still, you get what you pay for. Howry would immediately upgrade our bullpen and serve as a highly reliable, effective setup man. Other alternatives I like: the Angels' Donnelly, the Nationals' Rauch, the Mariners' Soriano, the Marlins' Borowski and yes, even the Pirates' Hernandez -- regardless of how close he is to collecting Social Security!

Who should we target? It really depends a lot on the asking price. And by that, I mean, who do these teams want back in return? We don't have a lot of trading chits, and not all of the ones we have are expendable. Shedding some, though, won't hurt as much as losing others.

Can we do without Chick or Germano? No doubt.