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reds44
06-27-2006, 05:18 PM
On Around the Horn

Should the Cardinals be worred............

"No, there isn't a team in that divison outside of the Cardinals that can win that divison."

It's late June, and we are a game and a half out of first.

Screw you Mariotti.

Razor Shines
06-27-2006, 05:21 PM
On Around the Horn

Should the Cardinals be worred............

"No, there isn't a team in that divison outside of the Cardinals that can win that divison."

It's late June, and we are a game and a half out of first.

Screw you Mariotti.
I was watching that also, that's awesome. I mean I get it that the Cards are still the favorite but I think we've proven they aren't as good as they are portrayed to be. And for him to say that Reds or even Astros for that matter couldn't win is silly.

Newman4
06-27-2006, 05:24 PM
Ditto what Ozzie said. :devil:

redssouth
06-27-2006, 05:25 PM
I think I am starting to agree with Ozzie Guillen on Jay Mariotti.. :)

KronoRed
06-27-2006, 05:25 PM
*looks at bullpen*

Is he wrong?

;)

harangatang
06-27-2006, 05:37 PM
*looks at bullpen*

Is he wrong?

;)Exactly, until we have a formidable bullpen, no one is going to take the Reds seriously because there is no reason why they should.

Matt700wlw
06-27-2006, 05:43 PM
Next time he makes an intelligent comment about anything, let me know.

Sure, the Cardinals are still (and should be until proven otherwise) the favorite, but to say nobody else in this divison can de-thrown them is just idiotic. The Reds are in their rear-view mirror, and everybody remembers what the Astros did last year in the second half...

whodeynati85
06-27-2006, 05:46 PM
People say are bullpen is terrible, which it is, but our starting pitching is a lot better than the Cardinals whos whole pitching staff sucks.

Razor Shines
06-27-2006, 05:46 PM
Exactly, until we have a formidable bullpen, no one is going to take the Reds seriously because there is no reason why they should.
So you think that if not much changes in the pen, we have no chance of winning the division? I think our chances are not good, and I pray that we get some decent arms in there, but in the event of the worst case senario I still believe we have some chance, not much, but some. That's basically what JM was saying, and if he believes that fine, I don't really care, but do you. Maybe I am just not being objective enough, which I've been guilty of before.

vaticanplum
06-27-2006, 06:07 PM
So you think that if not much changes in the pen, we have no chance of winning the division? I think our chances are not good, and I pray that we get some decent arms in there, but in the event of the worst case senario I still believe we have some chance, not much, but some. That's basically what JM was saying, and if he believes that fine, I don't really care, but do you.

Anything is possible, but I have to say that from an analytical point of view, I don't believe the Reds can win the division and possibly the wild card without improving the bullpen, regardless of what the other teams do. What we're witnessing at the moment is close to the worst collapse the Cardinals can have. The base ability of their team is high enough that, barring serious and prolific injuries to the team, they can fall back on pretty solid stuff. I expect the Astros to only get better, but if they don't, there are other teams in the league to contend with regarding the wild card.

The thing about a weak bullpen is that it is, of all major weaknesses on a team, the thing most likely to really pull down a team as the season moves on. If you have weak starting pitching but a strong bullpen, you can probably squeak by. If you have weak offense but strong pitching, same thing. If you have a weak bullpen in July and August, though, it gets really tough. Your starters can't work as long or as well in the heat (I rely on one starter falling apart for every team just to be on the safe side), and your hitters and runners start getting injured and tired. The ball carries farther. You're getting by with 25 men through the end of July. The guys in the bullpen are the ones who have the opportunity to limit the damage with the least amount of time, work and sweat. If they're not there, the burden placed on the rest of the team is three times as heavy and hot as it is in April or September.

edit: It is important to note that nothing I just said changes the fact that Jay Mariotti is a complete idiot.

RedEye
06-27-2006, 06:14 PM
People say are bullpen is terrible, which it is, but our starting pitching is a lot better than the Cardinals whos whole pitching staff sucks.

Our starting pitching is a lot better than the Cards IF Arroyo keeps his ERA under 2.50 for the year, IF Harang stays on his 223 K / 223 INN pace, IF EZ continues to look like a young Brad Radke, and IF Milton keeps respectability alive in the fourth spot. As far as I can tell, there is no body of work for any of these guys that would suggest their first half performances will be repeated except for perhaps Milton, who might have made several other brushes with respectability in his career.

Folks, there is still a very plausible scenario out there that has Bronson and EZ turning back into pumpkins, Harang reverting to his 2005 form (which wasn't bad admittedly, but not close to his current dominance), and Milton staying about the same (perhaps wishful thinking in itself). What we are left with then is a starting rotation with an ERA around 4.50, an inconsistent offense, and a bullpen that... well, you know.

I'm not sayin' I agree with Mariotti ignoring the Reds' success... but I understand.

RedsManRick
06-27-2006, 06:15 PM
Mariotti is a... err... idiot.

Razor Shines
06-27-2006, 06:23 PM
Anything is possible, but I have to say that from an analytical point of view, I don't believe the Reds can win the division and possibly the wild card without improving the bullpen, regardless of what the other teams do. What we're witnessing at the moment is close to the worst collapse the Cardinals can have. The base ability of their team is high enough that, barring serious and prolific injuries to the team, they can fall back on pretty solid stuff. I expect the Astros to only get better, but if they don't, there are other teams in the league to contend with regarding the wild card.

The thing about a weak bullpen is that it is, of all major weaknesses on a team, the thing most likely to really pull down a team as the season moves on. If you have weak starting pitching but a strong bullpen, you can probably squeak by. If you have weak offense but strong pitching, same thing. If you have a weak bullpen in July and August, though, it gets really tough. Your starters can't work as long or as well in the heat (I rely on one starter falling apart for every team just to be on the safe side), and your hitters and runners start getting injured and tired. The ball carries farther. You're getting by with 25 men through the end of July. The guys in the bullpen are the ones who have the opportunity to limit the damage with the least amount of time, work and sweat. If they're not there, the burden placed on the rest of the team is three times as heavy and hot as it is in April or September.

edit: It is important to note that nothing I just said changes the fact that Jay Mariotti is a complete idiot.
That all makes a lot of sense and I'm sure you're right. But my main point was the fact that Mariotti didn't even give us a chance, and I still believe that the Reds would have some chance. But I suppose that's just being naive.

TeamBoone
06-27-2006, 07:34 PM
*looks at bullpen*

Is he wrong?

;)

I don't think we know that at this point... nor does he.

His statement is pretty wide... at this point, the NL Central is NOT the Cards to be had. Does that mean they will not win it? Of course not... but it's certainly not a definite shoe-in, as he seems to state.

I don't like him either, but what Ozzie said is still wrong. I'd rather he had called him an :mooner: hole. But I more wish he'd taken him out with intelligent words rather than sinking to his level (not that he had to sink to far; I don't have much respect for Ozzie either).

Actually, they deserve each other.

Hubba
06-27-2006, 07:53 PM
On Around the Horn

Should the Cardinals be worred............

"No, there isn't a team in that divison outside of the Cardinals that can win that divison."

It's late June, and we are a game and a half out of first.

Screw you Mariotti. Was you refering to Mariotti in a homosexual way? Or what did you mean by that statement?;)

dabvu2498
06-27-2006, 08:09 PM
If you're looking for information, try the Discovery or History Channels.

If you want to watch morons on TV, watch MTV or ESPN (sorry Mr. Gammons).

reds1869
06-27-2006, 08:36 PM
ESPN is a worthless piece of trash. When they actually report sports news instead of being the athletic equivalent of Pravda, I'll start watching them for anything other than games. Their "entertainment programming" is worthless.

deltachi8
06-27-2006, 10:08 PM
With Milton remembering he is Eric Milton and the bullpen the way it is, I cant see the Reds keeping up with the pace - its too much to ask of Harrang, Arroyo and a young Ramirez.

They need a starter and at least 2 BP arms and thats asking too much I think.

Highlifeman21
06-27-2006, 10:26 PM
Anything is possible, but I have to say that from an analytical point of view, I don't believe the Reds can win the division and possibly the wild card without improving the bullpen, regardless of what the other teams do. What we're witnessing at the moment is close to the worst collapse the Cardinals can have. The base ability of their team is high enough that, barring serious and prolific injuries to the team, they can fall back on pretty solid stuff. I expect the Astros to only get better, but if they don't, there are other teams in the league to contend with regarding the wild card.
The thing about a weak bullpen is that it is, of all major weaknesses on a team, the thing most likely to really pull down a team as the season moves on. If you have weak starting pitching but a strong bullpen, you can probably squeak by. If you have weak offense but strong pitching, same thing. If you have a weak bullpen in July and August, though, it gets really tough. Your starters can't work as long or as well in the heat (I rely on one starter falling apart for every team just to be on the safe side), and your hitters and runners start getting injured and tired. The ball carries farther. You're getting by with 25 men through the end of July. The guys in the bullpen are the ones who have the opportunity to limit the damage with the least amount of time, work and sweat. If they're not there, the burden placed on the rest of the team is three times as heavy and hot as it is in April or September.

edit: It is important to note that nothing I just said changes the fact that Jay Mariotti is a complete idiot.


You ain't kiddin. Coffey is the only guy I trust to get the ball and not implode our hopes. And even Coffey's human.

Maybe The Rocket will help the Stros, maybe he won't. Their offensive is still abysmal. As for other NL teams, sure, there are clubs out there that can compete for the WC, I completely agree. It'll be probably a 4 horse race for the WC.

I will be impressed if this smoke and mirrors act continues and we're competitive into Mid August, but after losing tonight to the Royals, of all teams, maybe all bets are off.

griffeyfreak4
06-27-2006, 11:16 PM
*Remembering a Last Year Around The Horn Episode*

"With the way the Sox are playing, there is no way that they will make it past the first round of the playoffs, assuming they make the playoffs."

Boy, can you say wrong!

I'm hoping this will bring the Reds good luck!

Oh, and BTW, I think reds44 should be ordered to sensitivity training, and I'm starting a petition ;)

TeamBoone
06-28-2006, 12:06 AM
I will be impressed if this smoke and mirrors act continues and we're competitive into Mid August, but after losing tonight to the Royals, of all teams, maybe all bets are off.

IMHO, this is over-reacting to tonight's loss. Everyone has a bad night (even Coffey did) so why is it such a sin that Milton did? He's been effective for the most part this season.

TV broadcast alluded to the possibility of him hurting his knee when running the bases... possible, because he seemed to crash and burn after that.

My biggest problem was that JN allowed him to stay in so long after he started giving up the runs.

The defense/offense played well.

reds44
06-28-2006, 12:15 AM
Go win the next 2 and this is a sucessful series. All you can do is win series.

RedsMan3203
06-28-2006, 02:23 AM
Ya'll taking Mariotti comment out of context here.....

He didn't even mention the Reds.... Just said the Stro's could take the divison ;)

I do believe one of them said something about the Reds... Blackistone maybe.. Or the West Coast guy... Can't spell the name.

OnBaseMachine
06-28-2006, 06:50 AM
This is why the Reds don't get any respect. They suck at home, choke in frnt of big crowds, can't beat the worst team in baseball history, can't beat the Cubs, they struggle vs the Pirates. Oh well, there's always next year. :rolleyes:

Redhook
06-28-2006, 09:07 AM
This is why the Reds don't get any respect. They suck at home, choke in frnt of big crowds, can't beat the worst team in baseball history, can't beat the Cubs, they struggle vs the Pirates. Oh well, there's always next year. :rolleyes:

Giving up already? Yes, we blew the game tonight, but we're still in 1st by one game in the wild card and only 1 1/2 games out of first in the Central. Plus, the teams competing for the wild are very weak. The teams in the East are all pretty bad except the Mets. The West teams are decent, but will probably beat up each other with on the champion going to the playoffs. I think the Reds competition for the wild card comes down to the Brewers, Astros, and maybe the Dodgers/Padres. Definitely, not a powerful group of teams there. With a few pitching additions this team will make the playoffs.



NATIONAL LEAGUE

National League East
Team W L Pct. GB Home Road East Cent. West L10 Strk
N.Y. Mets 47 29 .618 - 22-15 25-14 21-10 8-7 13-7 5-5 L 1
Philadelphia 35 40 .467 11 18-23 17-17 14-14 5-10 13-7 2-8 L 5
Florida 34 40 .459 12 17-17 17-23 9-15 8-10 9-9 7-3 W 3
Atlanta 33 45 .423 15 14-20 19-25 15-17 4-6 11-14 3-7 W 1
Washington 33 45 .423 15 15-19 18-26 14-17 12-15 2-5 3-7 L 1

National League Central
Team W L Pct. GB Home Road East Cent. West L10 Strk
St. Louis 42 34 .553 - 24-15 18-19 11-2 18-19 10-5 2-8 L 8
Cincinnati 41 36 .532 1 17-20 24-16 9-7 26-17 3-5 4-6 L 1
Milwaukee 39 39 .500 4 25-17 14-22 11-7 15-18 7-8 6-4 W 2
Houston 38 40 .487 5 25-18 13-22 9-6 16-12 8-13 3-7 L 2
Chi. Cubs 28 48 .368 14 12-22 16-26 4-8 18-19 3-12 2-8 L 5
Pittsburgh 26 52 .333 17 18-21 8-31 4-7 13-21 8-15 0-10 L 12

National League West
Team W L Pct. GB Home Road East Cent. West L10 Strk
San Diego 40 36 .526 - 20-21 20-15 7-9 14-6 13-14 6-4 W 1
L.A. Dodgers 40 37 .519 23-16 17-21 9-10 12-7 15-13 4-6 L 2
Colorado 39 38 .506 1 20-18 19-20 10-9 8-9 13-17 5-5 W 1
San Francisco 38 38 .500 2 21-20 17-18 9-10 10-8 13-13 4-6 W 1
Arizona 37 40 .481 3 19-21 18-19 7-10 14-9 15-12 2-8 L 1

reds44
06-28-2006, 11:39 AM
This is why the Reds don't get any respect. They suck at home, choke in frnt of big crowds, can't beat the worst team in baseball history, can't beat the Cubs, they struggle vs the Pirates. Oh well, there's always next year. :rolleyes:
You crack me up OBM.

So nobody should lose to the Royals all year? They should go 0-162? No, we just need to win the series.

redsfan30
06-28-2006, 11:43 AM
All the over-reaction to one single loss to a hot team right now is killing me.

redsfan30
06-28-2006, 11:49 AM
The White Sox have already been beat by the Royals three times this year, but since we got beat in one game, apparently we need to fold up shop.

:rolleyes:

reds44
06-28-2006, 11:51 AM
The White Sox have already been beat by the Royals three times this year, but since we got beat in one game, apparently we need to fold up shop.

:rolleyes:
Yes, and actually they blew a 6-0 lead to the Royals.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASA....jsp&team=

smith288
06-28-2006, 12:32 PM
Ill say it...im not afraid.

Marrioti's a fa....ntastic idiot.

OldXOhio
06-28-2006, 12:32 PM
On Around the Horn

Should the Cardinals be worred............

"No, there isn't a team in that divison outside of the Cardinals that can win that divison."

It's late June, and we are a game and a half out of first.

Screw you Mariotti.

First, you really need to understand that show is purely for entertainment purposes only. I personally don't find it entertaining, but how else can you take it when forced to hear the opinions of the likes of Mariotti, Paige, etc. Second, STL is on a huge slide yet is still in first. Exactly what have you seen out of the Reds in June that makes you think they're capable of overtaking the Cardinals?

OldXOhio
06-28-2006, 12:39 PM
This is why the Reds don't get any respect. They suck at home, choke in frnt of big crowds, can't beat the worst team in baseball history, can't beat the Cubs, they struggle vs the Pirates. Oh well, there's always next year. :rolleyes:

I don't know if I'd go so far as to agree w/ everything you said, but I'd be close. I think history will show that the 2006 Reds were the ones that crossed the line for this organization from being lousy to becoming competitive. I think this season will go down as largely positive considering what low expectations were had going in. However, there are still too many holes to overcome for this to be a playoff bound team.

This still looks to be a three year rebuilding process, so in light of what we've seen thus far, I can't wait for next year.

realreds1
06-28-2006, 12:50 PM
To be fair to the Royals, they have put together a tiny hot streak the past few games.

TeamBoone
06-28-2006, 12:58 PM
This is why the Reds don't get any respect. They suck at home, choke in frnt of big crowds, can't beat the worst team in baseball history, can't beat the Cubs, they struggle vs the Pirates. Oh well, there's always next year. :rolleyes:

This has been mentioned ad nauseum by Chris Welsh; I've never seen it in print as a potential problem, just on Reds TV broadcasts... who says the media has no effect on fan perception?

BTW, I think it's a stupid observation... the Reds play to big crowds on the road and it doesn't seem to have much of an impact.

Tom Servo
06-28-2006, 01:03 PM
Ya'll taking Mariotti comment out of context here.....

He didn't even mention the Reds.... Just said the Stro's could take the divison ;)

I do believe one of them said something about the Reds... Blackistone maybe.. Or the West Coast guy... Can't spell the name.
It was Bob Ryan, who said "Don't count out the Reds, there's something interesting going on there".

Edd Roush
06-28-2006, 01:15 PM
My biggest problem was that JN allowed him to stay in so long after he started giving up the runs.

.

TB, did you really wanna see Narron bring in the fodder that he now possesses in the bullpen? Holy cow, with what we have there now I was cheering that Narron would allow Milton to right himself. There is no way I would feel more confident with the bullpenners out there than Milton. If Milton could keep the ball on the ground yesterday, we would have been set.

TeamBoone
06-28-2006, 01:26 PM
TB, did you really wanna see Narron bring in the fodder that he now possesses in the bullpen? Holy cow, with what we have there now I was cheering that Narron would allow Milton to right himself. There is no way I would feel more confident with the bullpenners out there than Milton. If Milton could keep the ball on the ground yesterday, we would have been set.

Point taken, but I was also anxious to see him try out the "new BP blood".

redsfan30
06-28-2006, 01:27 PM
I was also anxious to see him try out the "new BP blood".
Second verse, same as the first.

It doesn't matter who they run out there, they all suck.

cincinnati chili
06-28-2006, 11:05 PM
I'd rather have the Cardinals starting rotation than ours. I think 90% of people outside of Cincinnati Reds nation feel the same way.

reds44
06-28-2006, 11:08 PM
I'd rather have the Cardinals starting rotation than ours. I think 90% of people outside of Cincinnati Reds nation feel the same way.
I wouldn't. We have 3 very good starters, they have 1.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
06-28-2006, 11:18 PM
an idiot on here just told me that junior doesn't deserve to start the allstar team. What happened to cheering for your team and its players, Mariotti makes those comments and someone who claims to be a reds fan has a can you blame him attitude? Come on, I was at a game a few nights ago i heard more we should trade this guy or he sucks in the croud than I do when I go watch my Browns play the bengals. I had always thought or maybe I was just fooling myself that reds fans were different than bengals fans but its getting very blurry. Go back and read some of your posts from before the season started, everyone was on the it'll take a couple of years boat and now that its not taking a couple of years its still not good enough. I'm waiting for Randy Quaid to show up at the next homestand talking about how they'll just blow it in the playoffs. Sit back and enjoy, it's been a while since weve played this well. Vote for Junior

reds44
06-29-2006, 12:02 AM
an idiot on here just told me that junior doesn't deserve to start the allstar team. What happened to cheering for your team and its players, Mariotti makes those comments and someone who claims to be a reds fan has a can you blame him attitude? Come on, I was at a game a few nights ago i heard more we should trade this guy or he sucks in the croud than I do when I go watch my Browns play the bengals. I had always thought or maybe I was just fooling myself that reds fans were different than bengals fans but its getting very blurry. Go back and read some of your posts from before the season started, everyone was on the it'll take a couple of years boat and now that its not taking a couple of years its still not good enough. I'm waiting for Randy Quaid to show up at the next homestand talking about how they'll just blow it in the playoffs. Sit back and enjoy, it's been a while since weve played this well. Vote for Junior


Junior doesn't deserve to start the all-star game.

Am I an idiot also?

Cedric
06-29-2006, 12:05 AM
Junior doesn't deserve to start the all-star game.

Am I an idiot also?

Who cares about deserving? I thought baseball was entertainment? I want to be entertained by rooting for a Reds player. The hell with anything else.

reds44
06-29-2006, 12:06 AM
Who cares about deserving? I thought baseball was entertainment? I want to be entertained by rooting for a Reds player. The hell with anything else.
I voted for Junior 50 times because I am a Reds fan, and I want to see him start.

Doesn't change the fact that he doesn't deserve to be on the all-star team.

savafan
06-30-2006, 04:02 PM
Mariotti isn't helping himself.

http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/hottype/060630/

Highlifeman21
06-30-2006, 10:15 PM
IMHO, this is over-reacting to tonight's loss. Everyone has a bad night (even Coffey did) so why is it such a sin that Milton did? He's been effective for the most part this season.

TV broadcast alluded to the possibility of him hurting his knee when running the bases... possible, because he seemed to crash and burn after that.

My biggest problem was that JN allowed him to stay in so long after he started giving up the runs.

The defense/offense played well.


My whole point is that without addressing the bullpen, I can't imagine our Reds having continued success. Arroyo touched upon this in a recent interview that he's frustrated with the bullpen, and that he wonders if maybe he should try and go an extra inning even if he doesn't feel he has his best stuff. Do we want arguably our best pitcher pushing himself deeper into ballgames with a potential risk for injury?

Calling Milton effective is being nice at best. Other threads suggest that he'll return to last year's form and we'll see his ERA balloon back up to 5+. Phenomenal.

My biggest problem is that we extended Jerry Narron. He mismanages this team, and it's blatantly obvious. I think a better manager would get more out of this bullpen, or at least know how to manage this staff as a whole better.

savafan
06-30-2006, 10:20 PM
My biggest problem is that we extended Jerry Narron. He mismanages this team, and it's blatantly obvious. I think a better manager would get more out of this bullpen, or at least know how to manage this staff as a whole better.

I don't think even Casey Stengal or Sparky could get any more out of this bullpen.

KronoRed
06-30-2006, 10:58 PM
I don't think even Casey Stengal or Sparky could get any more out of this bullpen.
Probably not but they would try and limit the appearances of the arson bunch, before today 4 of the top 5 BP pitchers in appearances had eras over 6.

Highlifeman21
07-01-2006, 12:08 AM
I don't think even Casey Stengal or Sparky could get any more out of this bullpen.


You might be right.

I hear Jose Canseco is working on his knuckleball for the San Diego Surf Dawgs. For the pure comedical value alone, I think I prefer him in our pen over anyone not named Coffey.

But in all seriousness, I think Narron isn't the long term answer as the skipper of this ship.

reds44
07-01-2006, 12:18 AM
Hey Jay!

What's up now buddy?