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StillFunkyB
06-28-2006, 01:40 PM
I just flipped on the Braves Yanks game on TBS and Cairo hit a slow roller back to first and "slid" past the first baseman, and touched the base then rolled away.

I started thinking about it, and it just seems like this should be against the rules. It just seemed odd. I guess I have always understood the rule about over-running first was so that you could run hard the whole way, with no need to slide.

I was thinking that if you slide into first you should have to stay on the bag.

Thoughts?

RedsManRick
06-28-2006, 02:03 PM
The only reason you should be sliding at all is because the first baseman was pulled off the bag and sliding allows you to avoid the tag. Otherwise, sliding only slows you down.

In terms of rule, I don't see the difference between sliding through and running through.

gonelong
06-28-2006, 02:32 PM
The only reason you should be sliding at all is because the first baseman was pulled off the bag and sliding allows you to avoid the tag. Otherwise, sliding only slows you down.

I have always questioned the validity of this.

I think if you actually did slide, then it would slow you down a bit, however, if you dove headfirst and made contact with the bag before your body hit the ground I would have to think it would be faster.

GL

TOBTTReds
06-28-2006, 02:41 PM
I just flipped on the Braves Yanks game on TBS and Cairo hit a slow roller back to first and "slid" past the first baseman, and touched the base then rolled away.

The play I think you are describing sounds like he can be tagged out. Say you are running down the line, accidentally miss the bag when the 1b gets pulled off. You can't just go back and touch the bag, then walk away from it like it is a dead ball. You might not be explaining it like that on the slide play, but it sounds like a possibility. He was just laying next to the bag, he can't just tap it, then pull his hand off if he has no momentum pulling him off.

RedsManRick
06-28-2006, 02:51 PM
I have always questioned the validity of this.

I think if you actually did slide, then it would slow you down a bit, however, if you dove headfirst and made contact with the bag before your body hit the ground I would have to think it would be faster.

GL

Perhaps if the slide was in the Pete Rose, hurl yourself forward through the air like superman, type dive, then yes. However, with a 1B anchored to the bag, that sounds like a great way to break a finger, or a wrist, or disclocate a shoulder.

gonelong
06-28-2006, 03:04 PM
Perhaps if the slide was in the Pete Rose, hurl yourself forward through the air like superman, type dive, then yes. However, with a 1B anchored to the bag, that sounds like a great way to break a finger, or a wrist, or disclocate a shoulder.

You only have to touch the bag, you don't have to own it.

Between baseball and softball I have seen 1000's of headfirst slides and have never seen anyone break a finger or dislocate a shoulder. Honestly, I can't recall ever seeing one in a MLB game either.

GL

TOBTTReds
06-28-2006, 03:20 PM
You only have to touch the bag, you don't have to own it.

Between baseball and softball I have seen 1000's of headfirst slides and have never seen anyone break a finger or dislocate a shoulder. Honestly, I can't recall ever seeing one in a MLB game either.

GL

Really? I feel like the Reds had someone jam their hand or wrist a couple years ago sliding into first. Might have been D'Lo with a shoulder or something. I've seen it quite a bit.

Junior Spivey did it in Cincy two years ago.

Spivey injured himself while sliding head-first into first base on July 2 in Pittsburgh. Shortly after, the Brewers were told that Spivey would be out two to four weeks.

Here's one of Coco Crisp last year:

Coco Crisp, who severely sprained his right thumb while sliding last month, could be ready to return and the Indians would prefer to activate him rather than make another roster move. Crisp was initially expected to miss three months, but the injury wasn't as bad as first thought, and the outfielder may be ready.


And one from this year:

Finally, I should note that my sources confirmed that Michael Barrett -- who wasn't likely going to play today anyway -- did have x-rays on his finger after the headfirst slide into 2nd last night.

Here are two from the same day in '03

PIRATES: Former Gold Glove second baseman Pokey Reese will be lost until at least mid-July with a torn ligament in his left thumb, which was injured sliding Tuesday night. He'll have surgery today.
METS: Shortstop Rey Sanchez was placed on the 15-day disabled list with an injured left thumb, hurt while sliding Saturday against the Padres.


OK, I'm done.

Dont mean to be a jerk by posting those, but I just figured if you had really seen thousands of head first slides, you might have seen someone get hurt, especially a game in cincy.

Sea Ray
06-28-2006, 04:16 PM
Didn't Kenny Lofton really screw up his shoulder in a first base slide in a playoff game while with Cleveland? Just going by memory here but I think it was messed up until the next season

gonelong
06-28-2006, 04:46 PM
Dont mean to be a jerk by posting those, but I just figured if you had really seen thousands of head first slides, you might have seen someone get hurt, especially a game in cincy.

A quick estimate has me at about 500 live witnesses to headfirst slides between baseball and softball. I have seen 1000s of MLB games over the years, so even a single HF slide in each one of them assures I haves seen 1000s of HF slides. I really cannot recall a single instance that landed a guy on the DL. I can recall quite a few feet first slides that have put guys on the DL for extended stays, and even more instances of a guy pulling a hammy legging one down to 1B. I guess I just don't see a HF dive as an uneccessary risk.

I have no issue with you posting the above ... they are historic record and I won't take offense to that. I watch 150+ games a year and I don't recall seeing that type of injury over the last several years. Given that there are almost 2500 games a year I catch only about 6% of them, its inevitable that I won't see (or recall) everything in any given season or run of seasons.

I have no doubt it happens, but I have seen all sorts of guys get injured sliding feet first.

GL

RFS62
06-28-2006, 04:48 PM
I've heard all my life that a headfirst slide into first is slower than running through the bag without breaking stride.

If it wasn't, why wouldn't sprinters dive across the line for olympic gold?

Red in Chicago
06-28-2006, 04:53 PM
I've heard all my life that a headfirst slide into first is slower than running through the bag without breaking stride.

If it wasn't, why wouldn't sprinters dive across the line for olympic gold?


cuz they wear shorts :devil:

RFS62
06-28-2006, 04:55 PM
cuz they wear shorts :devil:


What sprinter wouldn't dive to win a race if he thought it was faster, especially the olympics, even if he knew he'd have bloody knees after the dive.

It's faster to run through the bag.

gonelong
06-28-2006, 05:03 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12855927&dopt=Abstract



OBJECTIVE: To determine the method of sliding that propels the baseball athlete to the desired base in the shortest amount of time. To assess the athlete's perception of the quickest, safest, and preferred sliding technique.

DESIGN: A single occasion with repeated measures design was used. The independent variable was slide type, and the dependent variable was time.

SETTING: The study was conducted in October 2000 at the University of Kentucky baseball complex.

PARTICIPANTS: Twenty collegiate baseball players.

INTERVENTIONS: High-speed video (to 1/200th of second) analysis of 20 collegiate baseball players performing 3 trials each of both head-first and feet-first sliding techniques. Additionally, each participant was asked to complete a sliding survey.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: The videotape of each slide performed was reviewed separately (using the same viewing equipment) by 2 of the study investigators. Slide type and time were recorded for each slide.

RESULTS: There was no significant difference between head-first versus feet-first slide times (P = 0.357). The average time for feet-first slides was 3.67 seconds, while that for head-first was 3.65 seconds. Sixty-eight percent of the players felt that head-first slides were faster than feet-first slides. Seventy-four percent identified the feet-first slide as the technique they most used, while 90% of the athletes perceived the feet-first technique to be safer.

CONCLUSIONS: On average, head-first and feet-first sliding techniques employed at the end aspect of base running propel the baseball player to the base in similar times. The head-first sliding technique is perceived to be faster and more dangerous.


90 ft x 12 inches = 1080 inches

1080 inches/3.65 seconds = 295.89 inches/sec

295.89 inch/sec * .02 difference = 5.9 inch difference

GL

/not real scientific, just sayin'

RFS62
06-28-2006, 05:08 PM
Uh, isn't that study looking at different types of slides, rather than compared to running through the base?

gonelong
06-28-2006, 05:25 PM
Uh, isn't that study looking at different types of slides, rather than compared to running through the base?

Yep, was trying to put something up before logging off today and in my haste, royally screwed up. :eek: Nice catch!

Somebody has probably done the study ... I'll look for one this evening if I get a chance.

GL

puca
06-28-2006, 05:29 PM
Surely it is true that sliding slows you down, however what I never hear mentioned is that a runner's foot must be above the bag before it actually touches the bag. In addition a runner's stride typically will not result their foot touching the very front of the bag, but rather somewhere in the middle of the bag. Alternatively someone sliding into a base will touch the very front of the bag at the same time the foot/hand reaches it. I don't think it is as cut and dried that running through a bag gets you there faster than sliding as announcers make it sound.

As to the Olympic runner argument, if the race wasn't finished until the runner crossed the finish line AND touched the ground, then maybe, perhaps they would slide/dive. Although I would think the surface of the track would discourage that practice.

Spitball
06-28-2006, 05:40 PM
Surely it is true that sliding slows you down, however what I never hear mentioned is that a runner's foot must be above the bag before it actually touches the bag. In addition a runner's stride typically will not result their foot touching the very front of the bag, but rather somewhere in the middle of the bag. Alternatively someone sliding into a base will touch the very front of the bag at the same time the foot/hand reaches it. I don't think it is as cut and dried that running through a bag gets you there faster than sliding as announcers make it sound.

As to the Olympic runner argument, if the race wasn't finished until the runner crossed the finish line AND touched the ground, then maybe, perhaps they would slide/dive. Although I would think the surface of the track would discourage that practice.

Interesting thoughts.

TeamSelig
06-28-2006, 06:00 PM
I always hated it when people said to slide when the 1st baseman comes off the bag. High throws typically come from the left side of the infield, and often are because they are trying to hurry (because you are either fast, or close to the bag)... so most of the time when the 1B comes off the bag -- you are almost already there and there is no time to slide or no room to slide.

I just don't get it.

redsrule2500
06-28-2006, 06:02 PM
Sliding is so stupid when going into first base.

TeamBoone
06-28-2006, 06:58 PM
Granted, I skimmed, but I didn't see an answer to the original question.

If sliding into first, can the "runner" slide past first and still be safe?

StillFunkyB
06-28-2006, 07:13 PM
Granted, I skimmed, but I didn't see an answer to the original question.

If sliding into first, can the "runner" slide past first and still be safe?

Yes, he can. I just don't get why. It almost feels like your exploiting the over-run rule.

Reds Nd2
06-28-2006, 07:17 PM
Granted, I skimmed, but I didn't see an answer to the original question.

If sliding into first, can the "runner" slide past first and still be safe?

Yes.
7.08
Any runner is out when --

(c)He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;

TOBTTReds
06-29-2006, 12:06 AM
Any runner is out when --

(c)He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;



I just flipped on the Braves Yanks game on TBS and Cairo hit a slow roller back to first and "slid" past the first baseman, and touched the base then rolled away.

Then this sounds like he could be tagged out if he merely touched the base, not "oversliding" after he had alreay passed it.

If I get this correctly, he slides past the base but doesn't touch it. Leans back to touch the base while sitting still on the ground, touches and pulls his hand off in a sense of ("fewww, i touched 1st, im automatically safe and can clean my pants without calling time).

I really need to see this play, bc i just speculated everything there.

StillFunkyB
06-29-2006, 06:19 AM
Then this sounds like he could be tagged out if he merely touched the base, not "oversliding" after he had alreay passed it.

If I get this correctly, he slides past the base but doesn't touch it. Leans back to touch the base while sitting still on the ground, touches and pulls his hand off in a sense of ("fewww, i touched 1st, im automatically safe and can clean my pants without calling time).

I really need to see this play, bc i just speculated everything there.

He dove at first to avoid a catch and tag IIRC. When he dove he touched the bag then rolled away. He was called safe.

Nobody in the game acted as if anything was wrong, so apparently it's legal. It just seems to me like it shouldn't be.

SteelSD
06-29-2006, 11:55 AM
I've heard all my life that a headfirst slide into first is slower than running through the bag without breaking stride.

If it wasn't, why wouldn't sprinters dive across the line for olympic gold?

US Olympic Team Trials- 2004:

Said Ahmed (white shirt- center right) dives across finish line; nipping Ian Connor by .01 seconds to acquire the final spot in the 1,500 Meter Finals:

http://www.mensracing.com/photos/2004/olympictrials04/daysix29.jpg

http://www.mensracing.com/photos/2004/olympictrials04/daysix30.jpg

http://www.mensracing.com/photos/2004/olympictrials04/daysix31.jpg

RFS62
06-29-2006, 12:10 PM
Are you suggesting that it's faster?

gonelong
06-29-2006, 12:11 PM
Yep, was trying to put something up before logging off today and in my haste, royally screwed up. :eek: Nice catch!

Somebody has probably done the study ... I'll look for one this evening if I get a chance.

GL

Got nothing.

GL

SteelSD
06-29-2006, 12:21 PM
Are you suggesting that it's faster?

I'm suggesting that throwing your torso horizontally through the air at the end of a race can get your torso over the finish line faster, yes. Sliding, no. Diving? Yep. It can help if that's what's required.

BTW, those word-class sprinters don't dive per se, but they do hurtle their torsos forward with their final step in an attempt to gain an advantage.

But then, first base acquisition is more than just throwing your body at an invisible vertical plane. Gotta touch it. There's the rub. Does diving at first base produce a quicker touch than running through it? Maybe. Maybe not.

Reds1
06-29-2006, 12:35 PM
Perhaps if the slide was in the Pete Rose, hurl yourself forward through the air like superman, type dive, then yes. However, with a 1B anchored to the bag, that sounds like a great way to break a finger, or a wrist, or disclocate a shoulder.


I do agree with this. But, I will say thre are times late in the game a slide like Freel could be faster. He plays like there is no tomorrow.

BCubb2003
06-29-2006, 12:43 PM
If sprinters had to touch the ground right under the finish line, you might see sprinters try a dive, at least once.

It seems to me that a ballplayer tends to dive toward first if he feels like his stride is not going to hit the target -- the first base bag. Going full tilt, he must judge a precise smaller half stride to touch the bag, or he gets to about a stride and a half from the bag and thinks he can turn that stride-and-a-half into one full-body stride by launching himself at the bag.

He gives up the propulsion of his last real push-off step in favor of the distance his 6-foot frame plus his outstretched arms can cover.

Is it faster? You'd have to compare the speed of Step 2, Step 1 (last big push), then Step .5 to the speed of Step 2 (last big push), launch your body across 8 feet with no more propulsion.

Does that make sense?

RFS62
06-29-2006, 01:12 PM
If sprinters had to touch the ground right under the finish line, you might see sprinters try a dive, at least once.

It seems to me that a ballplayer tends to dive toward first if he feels like his stride is not going to hit the target -- the first base bag. Going full tilt, he must judge a precise smaller half stride to touch the bag, or he gets to about a stride and a half from the bag and thinks he can turn that stride-and-a-half into one full-body stride by launching himself at the bag.

He gives up the propulsion of his last real push-off step in favor of the distance his 6-foot frame plus his outstretched arms can cover.

Is it faster? You'd have to compare the speed of Step 2, Step 1 (last big push), then Step .5 to the speed of Step 2 (last big push), launch your body across 8 feet with no more propulsion.

Does that make sense?



For the first time ever, I'd have to say no to you on that question.

Once you leave your feet, your propulsion stops and you begin to decrease in speed. As long as your method of propulsion is still producing forward thrust, you're at least maintaining speed instead of losing it from wind resistance, albeit very minimal.

Ballplayers dive because it's the ultimate effort level statement. They're willing to eat dirt to make it safely to first. Their motives are pure, but their physics are faulty.

BCubb2003
06-29-2006, 01:47 PM
Once you leave your feet, your propulsion stops and you begin to decrease in speed. As long as your method of propulsion is still producing forward thrust, you're at least maintaining speed instead of losing it from wind resistance, albeit very minimal.



Actually, I too doubt the player's decision-making ability in this situation, when he's running full tilt and then panics because the ball is a step from the bag and he's a step-and-a-half or two from the bag. If he launches himself at step 2, you're absolutely right that his speed starts to slow, and he gives up the last burst of speed he'd have at step 1. If he keeps running, he maintains his speed, and gets the push at step 1, but he's just short of the bag, and has to take another little step. My hunch is that the extra little step takes no more time than the distance of his body going from upright to hitting the ground and the bag, so he doesn't gain anything.

And he probably doesn't realize any of this. As he's running he's panicking that "I'm not going to make it this way, what's left?"

RFS62
06-29-2006, 02:01 PM
Yep, and also, all this talk assumes that he's in the air the entire way and reaches out at the optimum moment and touches the bag.

In reality, these guys are sliding. They're in the dirt several feet before they get to the bag.

It's not just wind resistance slowing them down, it's the slide in the dirt itself. The reason we slide second is to slow us down and enable us to NOT overrun the bag.

Sliding slows you down.

TOBTTReds
06-29-2006, 02:29 PM
He dove at first to avoid a catch and tag IIRC. When he dove he touched the bag then rolled away. He was called safe.

Nobody in the game acted as if anything was wrong, so apparently it's legal. It just seems to me like it shouldn't be.

Yeah, I've seen guys "round" first on plays like that where he is avoiding the tag on the inside and the 1B has no idea that he can tag him.

gonelong
06-29-2006, 04:02 PM
Yep, and also, all this talk assumes that he's in the air the entire way and reaches out at the optimum moment and touches the bag. [/qoute]

I don't find that as a bad assumption. I see lots of guys do this when diving to catch a ball in the OF and thats with a moving ball instead of a stationary bag.

[quote] In reality, these guys are sliding. They're in the dirt several feet before they get to the bag.

It's not just wind resistance slowing them down, it's the slide in the dirt itself. The reason we slide second is to slow us down and enable us to NOT overrun the bag.

Sliding slows you down.

I will certainly pay more attentention to guys when they are doing this in the future. I wouldn't advocate sliding into the bag. I do believe diving will get you there faster. I think the players inherently feel this way (at least the ones that do slide/dive) or they wouldn't do it.

I guess another variable is how does this affect the ump. When you are running through he can much more easily tell if you beat the throw, IMO, than if you slide/dive.

GL

RFS62
06-29-2006, 04:07 PM
You're not thinking it through. Every single other slide that a baserunner will ever make has him hitting the ground before he reaches the bag, headfirst or feetfirst. That's why they call it a slide instead of a dive. What you're describing might have him landing on or just in front of the bag on, shall we say, his midsection. If you're looking to create a bunch of Sopranos, and not the wiseguy version, that might be a good way to get it done.

:yikes:

gonelong
06-29-2006, 04:25 PM
You're not thinking it through. Every single other slide that a baserunner will ever make has him hitting the ground before he reaches the bag, headfirst or feetfirst. That's why they call it a slide instead of a dive. What you're describing might have him landing on or just in front of the bag on, shall we say, his midsection. If you're looking to create a bunch of Sopranos, and not the wiseguy version, that might be a good way to get it done.

:yikes:

I have thought about this entirely too much. :)

I am not advocating a slide, as the runner doesn't have to slow down to stay in contact with the bag.

The hand would meet the bag much the way the glove will meet the ball on a catch where the player is completely airborne and parrallel to the ground.

He would brush the bag with his hand and continue on down the baseline, landing in a heap of broken or twisted body parts with blood, guts, and a dirty face on display for all to see. :)

I think I could get to the bag faster this way. I don't think everyone could. Even if a player COULD get to the bag faster this way, I am not sure it would make enough of a difference such that the 1B Ump would be able to recognize it and call it in such a fashion anyway.

I gotta learn to keep my nose out of these threads. :eek:

GL

/have a good evening everyone ... off to the golf course

RFS62
06-29-2006, 04:35 PM
I have thought about this entirely too much. :)

I am not advocating a slide, as the runner doesn't have to slow down to stay in contact with the bag.

The hand would meet the bag much the way the glove will meet the ball on a catch where the player is completely airborne and parrallel to the ground.

He would brush the bag with his hand and continue on down the baseline, landing in a heap of broken or twisted body parts with blood, guts, and a dirty face on display for all to see. :)

I think I could get to the bag faster this way. I don't think everyone could. Even if a player COULD get to the bag faster this way, I am not sure it would make enough of a difference such that the 1B Ump would be able to recognize it and call it in such a fashion anyway.

I gotta learn to keep my nose out of these threads. :eek:

GL

/have a good evening everyone ... off to the golf course


Maybe you could wear a sliding pad on your stomach, or maybe some kind of strap on wheel. :p:

It's all good. This reminds me of our epic conversations on the old Cincy board about riding or walking in golf.

Have a good time.

RedsManRick
06-29-2006, 04:41 PM
I have thought about this entirely too much. :)

I am not advocating a slide, as the runner doesn't have to slow down to stay in contact with the bag.

The hand would meet the bag much the way the glove will meet the ball on a catch where the player is completely airborne and parrallel to the ground.

He would brush the bag with his hand and continue on down the baseline, landing in a heap of broken or twisted body parts with blood, guts, and a dirty face on display for all to see. :)

I think I could get to the bag faster this way. I don't think everyone could. Even if a player COULD get to the bag faster this way, I am not sure it would make enough of a difference such that the 1B Ump would be able to recognize it and call it in such a fashion anyway.

I gotta learn to keep my nose out of these threads. :eek:

GL

/have a good evening everyone ... off to the golf course

I'm picturing a running back diving for the pylon here... is that the right picture?

Reds Nd2
06-29-2006, 04:54 PM
Once you leave your feet, your propulsion stops and you begin to decrease in speed. As long as your method of propulsion is still producing forward thrust, you're at least maintaining speed instead of losing it from wind resistance, albeit very minimal.

Even though you've lost propulsion, your body has maintained it's forward momentum. Wind resistance is negligable and may have improved a bit since your no longer running straight up. The real loss of speed comes from the drag created by contact with the ground.

I'm in total agreement that sliding slows you down, but is that loss of speed enough to counter-act the advantage of stretching your entire body towards the bag? Standing flat footed, with my arms above my head, I can reach a distance 7' 6". That's about three normal strides (not steps). That's alot of ground being covered, while eliminating the final three strides toward the bag. While you will lose speed by contacting the ground, that doesn't happen the very second you dive, which delays the loss of speed through ground contact. It just seems that you could get to the base quicker by sliding.

Or in other words, will I get to the fridge for a beer quicker by running or diving into the fridge?

RFS62
06-29-2006, 04:56 PM
This thread is the Redzoniest thread I've ever read.

Ltlabner
06-29-2006, 05:02 PM
How does wind velocity effect the outcome of the slide vs. no slide arument? :dunno:

ochre
06-29-2006, 05:06 PM
now, for the reason sliding into first works at times:

Umps make calls on close plays at first by sound. They train themselves to distinguish the sound of a foot stepping on the bag from the sound of the ball hitting leather. By sliding, the runner robs them off the sensory input they rely on. They are left to judge the event from behind the bag, an angle in which, the distance between hand and base are difficult to judge. Plus it's scrappy. Umps love scrappy.

RFS62
06-29-2006, 05:08 PM
SOLDIER #1:
Where'd you get the coconuts?
ARTHUR:
We found them.
SOLDIER #1:
Found them? In Mercia? The coconut's tropical!
ARTHUR:
What do you mean?
SOLDIER #1:
Well, this is a temperate zone.
ARTHUR:
The swallow may fly south with the sun or the house martin or the plover may seek warmer climes in winter, yet these are not strangers to our land?
SOLDIER #1:
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
ARTHUR:
Not at all. They could be carried.
SOLDIER #1:
What? A swallow carrying a coconut?
ARTHUR:
It could grip it by the husk!
SOLDIER #1:
It's not a question of where he grips it! It's a simple question of weight ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a one pound coconut.
ARTHUR:
Well, it doesn't matter. Will you go and tell your master that Arthur from the Court of Camelot is here?
SOLDIER #1:
Listen. In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?
ARTHUR:
Please!
SOLDIER #1:
Am I right?
ARTHUR:
I'm not interested!
SOLDIER #2:
It could be carried by an African swallow!
SOLDIER #1:
Oh, yeah, an African swallow maybe, but not a European swallow. That's my point.
SOLDIER #2:
Oh, yeah, I agree with that.
ARTHUR:
Will you ask your master if he wants to join my court at Camelot?!
SOLDIER #1:
But then of course, uh, African swallows are non-migratory.
SOLDIER #2:
Oh, yeah.
SOLDIER #1:
So, they couldn't bring a coconut back anyway.
[clop clop clop]
SOLDIER #2:
Wait a minute! Supposing two swallows carried it together?
SOLDIER #1:
No, they'd have to have it on a line.
SOLDIER #2:
Well, simple! They'd just use a strand of creeper!
SOLDIER #1:
What, held under the dorsal guiding feathers?
SOLDIER #2:
Well, why not?

SteelSD
06-29-2006, 07:21 PM
If sprinters had to touch the ground right under the finish line, you might see sprinters try a dive, at least once.

It seems to me that a ballplayer tends to dive toward first if he feels like his stride is not going to hit the target -- the first base bag. Going full tilt, he must judge a precise smaller half stride to touch the bag, or he gets to about a stride and a half from the bag and thinks he can turn that stride-and-a-half into one full-body stride by launching himself at the bag.

He gives up the propulsion of his last real push-off step in favor of the distance his 6-foot frame plus his outstretched arms can cover.

Is it faster? You'd have to compare the speed of Step 2, Step 1 (last big push), then Step .5 to the speed of Step 2 (last big push), launch your body across 8 feet with no more propulsion.

Does that make sense?

I think that makes sense and so does 1 of 1 physicists surveyed:

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun99/930329638.Ph.r.html


Diving is advantageous in some circumstances in sports. The advantage diving provides can be strategic based on the rules of the game or it can be related to performance in which performing the feat may be impossible in any other way.

An example of rules based diving is to dive (or slide) when stealing second or third base because if the runner over runs the base he can be tagged out or if he runs without sliding he must slow down to stop at the base. Also, sliding or diving can be useful in avoiding the tag of the fielder with the ball.

An example of performance advantage is diving over the top of the lineman on short yardage in football. In this case, for a good jumper it may be easier to go airborne as opposed to trying to shove opponents and teammates out of the way.

Some athletes can cover more ground more quickly by leaping or diving, but this is an all or nothing commitment. Once the leap or the dive has been performed there is a recovery time to regain one's feet and orientation. However, leaping/diving may give the player the opportunity to make a play that could not be performed otherwise because of body position. And for some athletic feats in which a follow up move is not required (like diving into the endzone, crossing the finishline, diving into home

For example, an infielder dives to get her glove on a sharply hit ground ball. The player leaves her feet to make the play on the ball. The decision to dive is based on experience or "instinct" that tells the player that running all the way to field the ball will not work because she will be running so hard that she will not be able to field the ball in proper body position to get the ball and then make a throw because flat out top speed will be required. This seems like the proper situation to dive to get to the ball.

I believe diving into first base is based on a similar instinct. Most ball players have experienced running to first base at top speed and upon getting to the base the batter's stride is messed up. In a perfect situation the batter steps on first base in perfect stride with the foot that hits the base fully extended so that no effort or speed is wasted making a correction to step on the base. By diving into the base the batter makes the all or nothing commitment and does not have to make the running stride correction. If performed properly the hands will hit first base before the player would have stepped on the base at normal run with a stride correction provided no sliding on the ground before the base occurs. Sliding is basically letting the friction of the ground with the players leg slow the player down, while diving the friction works between the hands and arms first and then the rest of body once it hits the ground.

In general, diving gets the player to the base faster than sliding but puts the player in a more vulnerable position for injury.
Diving can be dangerous and lead to injury -- especially when diving into a base in baseball. If the base does not move, the player's hands, wrists, elbows, and shoulders could wind up being injured. Part of why homeplate is low and mostly flat is to prevent injuries to players sliding into home. Because a batter can run past first base without penalty of being tagged out (provided she does not turn toward second base) most coaches would rather the batter "run through first base" instead of diving. And sliding into first base is rarely a good idea.

Reds Nd2
06-29-2006, 07:32 PM
Got nothing.

GL

I didn't either and I don't know why. It would be rather easy to ascertain. Ran across a mention that no studies had ever been done, but other than that, nothing.

Found a couple of mentions of a Will Carroll UTK article concerning the injury frequencies of head first vs. feet first slides, but BP no longer has that article under archives that I could find. I may e-mail him about that later.

I'd like to see some scientific research that proves running through the bag is, in fact, quicker than sliding head first. Untill then, I'm just not convinced.

RFS62
06-29-2006, 07:34 PM
As funny as all you rocket scientists may find this, why don't you ask a baseball man what he thinks.

Reds Nd2
06-29-2006, 07:39 PM
Because a batter can run past first base without penalty of being tagged out (provided she does not turn toward second base) most coaches would rather the batter "run through first base" instead of diving. And sliding into first base is rarely a good idea.

But, is it quicker?

SteelSD
06-29-2006, 07:40 PM
I didn't either and I don't know why. It would be rather easy to ascertain. Ran across a mention that no studies had ever been done, but other than that, nothing.

Found a couple of mentions of a Will Carroll UTK article concerning the injury frequencies of head first vs. feet first slides, but BP no longer has that article under archives that I could find. I may e-mail him about that later.

I'd like to see some scientific research that proves running through the bag is, in fact, quicker than sliding head first. Untill then, I'm just not convinced.

While searching, I found something claiming that ESPN did a study on is sometime during 2002 using actual game tape for runners who consistently dove/slid head first into 1B. They timed them on tape diving/sliding versus running through the bag and, allegedly, those runners were faster when diving toward 1st.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to that research so I can't possibly claim that to be factual.

SteelSD
06-29-2006, 07:40 PM
As funny as all you rocket scientists may find this, why don't you ask a baseball man what he thinks.

I did. Me.

RFS62
06-29-2006, 07:41 PM
I did. Me.


DAMN!!!!!

So, you're a rocket scientist AND a baseball man!!!!

Call Raisor, I need a ruling on this!!!

Reds Nd2
06-29-2006, 07:45 PM
As funny as all you rocket scientists may find this, why don't you ask a baseball man what he thinks.

I thought I had.


I'm in total agreement that sliding slows you down, but is that loss of speed enough to counter-act the advantage of stretching your entire body towards the bag? Standing flat footed, with my arms above my head, I can reach a distance 7' 6". That's about three normal strides (not steps). That's alot of ground being covered, while eliminating the final three strides toward the bag. While you will lose speed by contacting the ground, that doesn't happen the very second you dive, which delays the loss of speed through ground contact. It just seems that you could get to the base quicker by sliding.

Reply...


This thread is the Redzoniest thread I've ever read.

SteelSD
06-29-2006, 07:46 PM
DAMN!!!!!

So, you're a rocket scientist AND a baseball man!!!!

Call Raisor, I need a ruling on this!!!

He'll rule as I mandate!!!

Now go back to reading your rocket scientist primer and make sure to drink your Kool-Aid. We'll make a sabermetrician out of you yet. :evil:

Ltlabner
06-29-2006, 07:48 PM
How does the earth's gravitational pull effect all this?

What about sun spot activity?

RFS62
06-29-2006, 07:48 PM
Okey dokey.

What do you guys teach the younglings under your control?

Reds Nd2
06-29-2006, 07:48 PM
While searching, I found something claiming that ESPN did a study on is sometime during 2002 using actual game tape for runners who consistently dove/slid head first into 1B. They timed them on tape diving/sliding versus running through the bag and, allegedly, those runners were faster when diving toward 1st.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to that research so I can't possibly claim that to be factual.

I thought about using game footage but I wasn't convinced that would be accurate. It really needs to be a controlled setting like the one GL posted on head first vs. feet first slides.

RFS62
06-29-2006, 07:50 PM
I thought I had.




I meant no disrespect, ND2....

gulp..... please don't run over me in your pimped out ride in your avatar.

Reds Nd2
06-29-2006, 07:51 PM
Okey dokey.

What do you guys teach the younglings under your control?

What does that have to do with the question at hand?

RFS62
06-29-2006, 07:52 PM
What does that have to do with the question at hand?



If you believe in the technique, do you teach it?

Reds Nd2
06-29-2006, 07:55 PM
I meant no disrespect, ND2....

gulp..... please don't run over me in your pimped out ride in your avatar.

I didn't take it that way '62, but I admit the whole coconut post confused me a bit.

She's a tricked out ride, is she not?

RFS62
06-29-2006, 07:57 PM
I didn't take it that way '62, but I admit the whole coconut post confused me a bit.

She's a tricked out ride, is she not?



The coconut post was my humble homage to Monty Python and the Holy Grail, the source of much enjoyment over the years.

Reds Nd2
06-29-2006, 08:10 PM
If you believe in the technique, do you teach it?

'62, I don't teach anything. I believe the curveball is an effective pitch. I wouldn't teach it to someone in little league.

I do want proof that running through first base is, in fact, a faster way of getting there than sliding/diving. You were discussing it and I asked a question. If that bothers you, and it apparently does, I'll bow out. Differences of opinions lead to further dialouge. Pissing matches don't.

RFS62
06-29-2006, 08:11 PM
OK, here's my last word on this (yeah, right).

The difference appears to be so miniscule that even the strongest proponents of diving/sliding/flying/floating/whatever by the base as you deftly stick your hand out to touch the base in perfect precision, daring not to brush the ground on your way, can't agree on how much, if any, better it is over old fashioned running.

I submit that the increased risk of injury for a very debatable return makes it INSANE to attempt or teach or employ this technique. And I still have GRAVE doubts that there's ANY advantage AT ALL, even if there was NO increased risk of injury, WHICH THERE IS!!!!

If the greatest players in the world thought it was a good idea, it would be taught to all of them, and not rebuked every single time you see it done!!!!!

It's a macho, effort level raising, knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, testostrone display that should ALWAYS be discouraged if you are lucky enough to have any level at all of influence over baseball players on ANY level!!!!!

I'm sorry I'm so wishy washy on the subject.

RFS62
06-29-2006, 08:13 PM
'62, I don't teach anything. I believe the curveball is an effective pitch. I wouldn't teach it to someone in little league.

I do want proof that running through first base is, in fact, a faster way of getting there than sliding/diving. You were discussing it and I asked a question. If that bothers you, and it apparently does, I'll bow out. Differences of opinions lead to further dialouge. Pissing matches don't.


Hey, apparently you are taking my random jocularity as aggression. I'm just yapping. It's all good. I respect your opinion completely, so don't misunderstand.

gonelong
06-29-2006, 10:28 PM
I'm picturing a running back diving for the pylon here... is that the right picture?

Yep, wished I had thought of that.

GL

gonelong
06-29-2006, 10:36 PM
Maybe you could wear a sliding pad on your stomach, or maybe some kind of strap on wheel. :p:

It's all good. This reminds me of our epic conversations on the old Cincy board about riding or walking in golf.

Have a good time.

That was a doozy. :)

Coincidentally, I now have a walking bag and walk for pretty much everything but scrambles. Of course, I carry my own bag unlike those pansies on the PGA Tour. ;)

I am shooting better than ever and I credit quite a bit of it to walking ... it gives me more time to contemplate just how awful my last swing was. :laugh:

GL

SteelSD
06-29-2006, 11:23 PM
OK, here's my last word on this (yeah, right).

The difference appears to be so miniscule that even the strongest proponents of diving/sliding/flying/floating/whatever by the base as you deftly stick your hand out to touch the base in perfect precision, daring not to brush the ground on your way, can't agree on how much, if any, better it is over old fashioned running.

I submit that the increased risk of injury for a very debatable return makes it INSANE to attempt or teach or employ this technique. And I still have GRAVE doubts that there's ANY advantage AT ALL, even if there was NO increased risk of injury, WHICH THERE IS!!!!

If the greatest players in the world thought it was a good idea, it would be taught to all of them, and not rebuked every single time you see it done!!!!!

It's a macho, effort level raising, knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, testostrone display that should ALWAYS be discouraged if you are lucky enough to have any level at all of influence over baseball players on ANY level!!!!!

I'm sorry I'm so wishy washy on the subject.

Gawd, I just hate it when you have to be pushed to say what you really feel, RFS. ;)

But I agree that no one should teach that technique- primarily because the risk of injury is way too high even if there's a miniscule speed advantage from diving. And diving is much more dangerous than sliding as there's far less control for the behavior.

That being said, if the sole question is whether or not diving can be quicker than running through the base, I'd say that diving may be faster during situations in which the runner realizes that an unplanned stutter-step to position his lead foot would slow him down as if he were sliding into first base. If that's the case, then an extra inch or two gain might just really matter in a game of inches.

And yeah, more than any thread in recent memory, this one is a pull up a chair and grab a beer thread. Good stuff.

But don't you dare start a thread about Sac Flies. Grrrrrrrr...:angry:

GAC
06-30-2006, 08:40 AM
In teaching kids little league drills on running to first base, I tell them to imagine they are a track runner, and to envision there is a "finish line" at first base. You run just as the would to break that line.... just remember to turn the right way and listen to your coach. ;)

If they slid, then they were doing extra running around the perimeter of the OF.

You teach a group f kids that sliding may be OK in certain instances and guess what?..... they'll all be sliding. :lol:

Reds Nd2
07-01-2006, 07:03 PM
....that should ALWAYS be discouraged if you are lucky enough to have any level at all of influence over baseball players on ANY level!!!!!

The Houston Astros have a policy in their Minor League system where the manager is required to immediately pull any player who dives head first into first base or homeplate.

And whatever ones feelings about a head first slide, I think we can all agree that Joe Mikulik shouldn't be the one teaching it. :laugh: