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RedLegSuperStar
06-29-2006, 10:11 PM
Whenever the bullpen erks you.. just let your fingers do the talking... i'll lead off...

I loved the signing of Hammonds in the beginning of the season because he had been so good the past two years. But honestly.. it may be time to cut your losses yet again and DFA yet another arm.

Matt700wlw
06-29-2006, 10:15 PM
This is family-friendly right? ;)

reds44
06-29-2006, 10:18 PM
It wasn't even about Weathers and Hammond tonight. We know they are washed up, but why oh why does our manager bring them in when you have Belisle and even Standridge that you can bring in?

KronoRed
06-29-2006, 10:19 PM
They stink.

RedLegSuperStar
06-29-2006, 10:19 PM
This is family-friendly right? ;)

Haha.. depends on situation

schroomytunes
06-29-2006, 10:20 PM
There is going to be a trade soon!:thumbup:

RedLegSuperStar
06-29-2006, 10:21 PM
There is going to be a trade soon!:thumbup:

I get so excited for trades.. then they happen and I'm sad

Oh.. DanO isn't running the team

CTA513
06-29-2006, 10:22 PM
It wasn't even about Weathers and Hammond tonight. We know they are washed up, but why oh why does our manager bring them in when you have Belisle and even Standridge that you can bring in?

Belisle is one of the few guys who has been pitching good lately.
Yes it was in the minors, but he also pitched a 1-2-3 inning the night before.
I see no reason to have guys in the bullpen if you arent going to use them.
It made no sense to have Burns in the bullpen when they only used him in blow out situations.

Matt700wlw
06-29-2006, 10:24 PM
There is going to be a trade soon!:thumbup:


There has to be.

KronoRed
06-29-2006, 10:25 PM
Forget a trade, just dump the bad ones and sign other junk, would at least be a change of pace

RFS62
06-29-2006, 10:26 PM
Look, I'm as disgusted as anyone.

But right now, Hammond and Weathers are on the 25 man roster. This means they have to take innings. If you don't use them agains the freakin' Royals with a three run lead in the 8th, when do you use them?

Somebody has to pitch the innings. Come August, it's going to be very bad around here if we haven't done something about the bullpen.

RedLegSuperStar
06-29-2006, 10:27 PM
Germano would be be a good call up, Claussen (once healthy) as a long reliever/spot starter.. that has got to improve this bullpen

reds44
06-29-2006, 10:28 PM
DFA Hammond
Bring Shack up and use him as a LOOGY

DFA Weathers
Get Germano up here

DFA Mercker
get Shafer up here (he is off the DL)

edabbs44
06-29-2006, 10:37 PM
The guy I am really disappointed in is Weathers. He was, at the very least, useful when he was closing. All of a sudden it seems like Double Zero, Burns and Hammy infected him.

It is a miracle that they are still in this thing despite the performance of the bullpen. Wayne...please help.

kyred14
06-29-2006, 10:41 PM
Bullpen? Everyone knows the real problem:

:dunn: ;)

RedsFan75
06-29-2006, 10:45 PM
It's so frustrating that Weathers gets the win tonight!!!!

edabbs44
06-29-2006, 10:45 PM
Bullpen? Everyone knows the real problem:

:dunn: ;)
Beating a dead horse here.;)

captainmorgan07
06-29-2006, 10:46 PM
on ename u can't call from the minors is wagner

Nugget
06-29-2006, 10:50 PM
Hammond was going well there for a while. I'm guessing that maybe like hitters they just arent in the zone. As Weathers, Hammond and Mercker have shown some signs of consistency during the season we can hope that the big aberrations come in games like the ones tonight. With Atlanta coming up Narron was probably hoping he could save Beslisle, Standridge and Coffey for those games.

Falls City Beer
06-29-2006, 10:50 PM
In the 14th century in Glasgow, Scotland, Archbishop Dunbar execrated some reivers for raping and pillaging and generally returning to their pagan ways. It's a curse, and I share it with you, gentle readers, in the hope that you can apply to the 2006 Cincy Reds bullpen:

"I curse their head and all the hairs of their head; I curse their face, their brain (innermost thoughts), their mouth, their nose, their tongue, their teeth, their forehead, their shoulders, their breast, their heart, their stomach, their back, their womb, their arms, their legs, their hands, their feet, and every part of their body, from the top of their head to the soles of their feet, before and behind, within and without."

"I curse them going and I curse them riding; I curse them standing and I curse them sitting; I curse them eating and I curse them drinking; I curse them rising, and I curse them lying; I curse them at home, I curse them away from home; I curse them within the house, I curse them outside of the house; I curse their wives, their children, and their servants who participate in their deeds. I (bring ill wishes upon) their crops, their cattle, their wool, their sheep, their horses, their swine, their geese, their hens, and all their livestock. I (bring ill wishes upon) their halls, their chambers, their kitchens, their stanchions, their barns, their cowsheds, their barnyards, their cabbage patches, their plows, their harrows, and the goods and houses that are necessary for their sustenance and welfare."

"May all the malevolent wishes and curses ever known, since the beginning of the world, to this hour, light on them. May the malediction of God, that fell upon Lucifer and all his fellows, that cast them from the high Heaven to the deep hell, light upon them."

"May the fire and the sword that stopped Adam from the gates of Paradise, stop them from the glory of Heaven, until they forebear, and make amends."

"May the evil that fell upon cursed Cain, when he slew his brother Abel, needlessly, fall on them for the needless slaughter that they commit daily."

"May the malediction that fell upon all the world, man and beast, and all that ever took life, when all were drowned by the flood of Noah, except Noah and his ark, fall upon them and drown them, man and beast, and make this realm free of them, for their wicked sins."

"May the thunder and lightning which rained down upon Sodom and Gomorra and all the lands surrounding them, and burned them for their vile sins, rain down upon them and burn them for their open sins. May the evil and confusion that fell on the Gigantis for their oppression and pride in building the Tower of Babylon, confound them and all their works, for their open callous disregard and oppression."

"May all the plagues that fell upon Pharaoh and his people of Egypt, their lands, crops and cattle, fall upon them, their equipment, their places, their lands, their crops and livestock."

"May the waters of the Tweed and other waters which they use, drown them, as the Red Sea drowned King Pharaoh and the people of Egypt, preserving God's people of Israel."

"May the earth open, split and cleave, and swallow them straight to hell, as it swallowed cursed Dathan and Abiron, who disobeyed Moses and the command of God."

"May the wild fire that reduced Thore and his followers to two-hundred-fifty in number, and others from 14,000 to 7,000 at anys, usurping against Moses and Aaron, servants of God, suddenly burn and consume them daily, for opposing the commands of God and Holy Church."

"May the malediction that suddenly fell upon fair Absolom, riding through the wood against his father, King David, when the branches of a tree knocked him from his horse and hanged him by the hair, fall upon these untrue Scotsmen and hang them the same way, that all the world may see."

"May the malediction that fell upon Nebuchadnezzar's lieutenant, Olifernus, making war and savagery upon true Christian men; the malediction that fell upon Judas, Pilate, Herod, and the Jews that crucified Our Lord; and all the plagues and troubles that fell on the city of Jerusalem therefore, and upon Simon Magus for his treachery, bloody Nero, Ditius Magcensius, Olibrius, Julianus Apostita and the rest of the cruel tyrants who slew and murdered Christ's holy servants, fall upon them for their cruel tyranny and murder of Christian people."

"And may all the vengeance that ever was taken since the world began, for open sins, and all the plagues and pestilence that ever fell on man or beast, fall on them for their openly evil ways, senseless slaughter and shedding of innocent blood."

"I sever and part them from the church of God, and deliver them immediately to the devil of hell, as the Apostle Paul delivered Corinth. I bar the entrance of all places they come to, for divine service and ministration of the sacraments of holy church, except the sacrament of infant baptism, only; and I forbid all churchmen to hear their confession or to absolve them of their sins, until they are first humbled / subjugated by this curse."

"I forbid all Christian men or women to have any company with them, eating, drinking, speaking, praying, lying, going, standing, or in any other deed-doing, under the pain of deadly sin."

"I discharge all bonds, acts, contracts, oaths, made to them by any persons, out of loyalty, kindness, or personal duty, so long as they sustain this cursing, by which no man will be bound to them, and this will be binding on all men."

"I take from them, and cast down all the good deeds that ever they did, or shall do, until they rise from this cursing."

"I declare them excluded from all matins, masses, evening prayers, funerals or other prayers, on book or bead (rosary); of all pilgrimages and alms deeds done, or to be done in holy church or be Christian people, while this curse is in effect."

"And, finally, I condemn them perpetually to the deep pit of hell, there to remain with Lucifer and all his fellows, and their bodies to the gallows of Burrow moor, first to be hanged, then ripped and torn by dogs, swine, and other wild beasts, abominable to all the world. And their candle (light of their life) goes from your sight, as may their souls go from the face of God, and their good reputation from the world, until they forebear their open sins, aforesaid, and rise from this terrible cursing and make satisfaction and penance."

RFS62
06-29-2006, 10:57 PM
All righty then. I see FCB has found his happy place.

flyer85
06-29-2006, 11:02 PM
The question is why stay with the old guys who have shown they can't get it done and are just lucky to have a job. Belisle looked great last night so where was he Jerry?

I said before the season that White, Burns and Hammond had no business being on the roster. Wayne, fix the problem and remove the temptation from Narron.

RFS62
06-29-2006, 11:07 PM
The question is why stay with the old guys who have shown they can't get it done and are just lucky to have a job. Belisle looked great last night so where was he Jerry?

I said before the season that White, Burns and Hammond had no business being on the roster. Wayne, fix the problem and remove the temptation from Narron.



But they are on the roster. So they have to contribute innings. Would you rather throw Belisle tonight, up by three runs in the 8th, and save Hammond for the Indians this weekend?

If they're on the roster, they have to throw innings. And if they have to throw innings, are there any innings more low pressure than coming out in the 8th tonight with a much better team looming this weekend?

Tony Cloninger
06-29-2006, 11:15 PM
Hammond and Weathers are Narron's cocaine and heroin.

Please keep that stuff away from him.

WVRedsFan
06-29-2006, 11:49 PM
This is family-friendly right? ;)

Hate that term "family-friendly." As if families, in the presence of their own homes don't swear or do anything wrong. How Ozzie and Harriet to think that, but...maybe it should be "children friendly?"

Anyway, I've said all I need to say about this anyway. I guess that's pretty family-friendly, huh?

WVRedsFan
06-29-2006, 11:52 PM
In the 14th century in Glasgow, Scotland, Archbishop Dunbar execrated some reivers for raping and pillaging and generally returning to their pagan ways. It's a curse, and I share it with you, gentle readers, in the hope that you can apply to the 2006 Cincy Reds bullpen:

"I curse their head and all the hairs of their head; I curse their face, their brain (innermost thoughts), their mouth, their nose, their tongue, their teeth, their forehead, their shoulders, their breast, their heart, their stomach, their back, their womb, their arms, their legs, their hands, their feet, and every part of their body, from the top of their head to the soles of their feet, before and behind, within and without."

"I curse them going and I curse them riding; I curse them standing and I curse them sitting; I curse them eating and I curse them drinking; I curse them rising, and I curse them lying; I curse them at home, I curse them away from home; I curse them within the house, I curse them outside of the house; I curse their wives, their children, and their servants who participate in their deeds. I (bring ill wishes upon) their crops, their cattle, their wool, their sheep, their horses, their swine, their geese, their hens, and all their livestock. I (bring ill wishes upon) their halls, their chambers, their kitchens, their stanchions, their barns, their cowsheds, their barnyards, their cabbage patches, their plows, their harrows, and the goods and houses that are necessary for their sustenance and welfare."

Hey, FCB? You been reading my mail??? :evil:

westofyou
06-29-2006, 11:58 PM
It's a barn without an 80 inning horse, and one without a stud middle reliever who can eat up 90-100 innings.

The BP is too old period, some of the parts aren't bad, but the usage pattern and what is being asked of them is exposing the warts each guy has.

Chip R
06-30-2006, 12:14 AM
Hopefully tonight will be the last we see of Hammond and Weathers in setup roles.

oregonred
06-30-2006, 12:21 AM
What, the bullpens been a grease fire?? I hadn't noticed :bang:

Weathers is probably not 100% and guys with his stuff can't be effective at less than 100%. You can't DFA everyone. Shut him down for 15 days and see if he can be effective again in mid-July.

Coffey shouldn't be closing and is probably better served as a setup man, but necessity says he needs to close.

Hopefully Belisle will be a huge help to get some of the 7th and 8th innings.

MIA is Ryan Wagner to help. Coffey + Belisle + Wagner should have been your trio of prime late inning eaters in close games. The gaping hole in the upper minors is biting the Reds in the rear end for alternatives.

On the bright side the pen should be much easier to fix and upgrade then a rotation --having 2 studs (and a third in the Lizard who looks good so far as at least a midlevel starter) is a huge plus. Whether some major retooling can be done before the offseason remains to be seen...

Guacarock
06-30-2006, 02:35 AM
From the get-go, this bullpen looked like a trainwreck in the making. Too many declining vets and soft tossers. No firebreathing KO specialist. No reliable inning eater. In short, a bullpen held together with bubble gum and baling wire, with only the faintest prayer to be halfway decent.

After Hancock got summarily axed this spring, followed by the puzzling judgment call to cut Wagner and replace him with Burns, I could smell disaster in the air.

Unfortunately, my worst suspicions have come to pass. There's enough blame to go around. The individual relievers, except Coffey and Belisle, have done little to instill confidence. O'Brien and Kullman saddled us with these questionable retreads, while Krivsky -- for all the magic he has worked elsewhere -- has been slow to fix the bullpen, either via trades or smart use of the reserve pitching talent we have stashed at Louisville and Chattanooga.

Narron has compounded the problem by not effectively mixing and matching the bullpen pieces based on actual performance, as opposed to false expectations. An example: He proclaims Belisle and Standridge as his new setup men, then instead of using them in that capacity, keeps right on hauling Hammond and Weathers out in late-inning situations. Weathers has an 11.57 ERA for the month of June. I haven't recalculated Hammond's ERA following the three runs he surrendered in 0.1 IP tonight, but he's challenging Weathers for the bullpen's most bloated ERA for the month.

What can be done to disinfect the mess?

First, place Weathers on the DL to make room for Encarnacion's return. The five days rest didn't heal Weathers' tendonitis. He needs to be shut down, then sent on a rehab assignment at Louisville to get his act together.

Secondly, put Hammond on a short leash, relegating him to mopup duties where we're trailing. In the meantime, go ahead and let Belisle and Standridge try out as setup men, and use Yan and Mercker for more meaningful middle relief work. Yan has a 4.22 ERA for June, and Mercker is showing signs of recovering his stamina following his stint on the DL.

Thirdly, once Claussen comes off the DL, make a determination on whether he or Mays can best hold down that last spot in the rotation. Reassign whoever loses the competition to the pen to serve as a legitimate inning eater. Hopefully, we'll have traded a catcher by then to clear the roster spot, but if not, then it's bueno-bye to either Hammond or the Mighty Q.

Finally, Krivsky needs to redouble his efforts to improve the bullpen. If he can't work any favorable trades until late July, then by all means, work the waiver wire. Even though he's no spring chicken himself, Remlinger pitched better this season for the Braves than any of our retread relievers. Now that Remlinger's been DFAed, get him on board if a trade to upgrade the bullpen is at least 3-5 weeks off.

It's almost July, and we're only one game back of St. Louis for the divisional lead. The bullpen has been our Achilles heel all year. We're at that juncture where the rubber meets the pavement.

It was asking too much to expect miracles from this motley bullpen. Now, we have to be more realistic, downsizing our expectations of what this existing crew can deliver, while fully preparing to go a different route to achieve some measure of success, however modest.

RedsBaron
06-30-2006, 06:40 AM
In the 14th century in Glasgow, Scotland, Archbishop Dunbar execrated some reivers for raping and pillaging and generally returning to their pagan ways. It's a curse, and I share it with you, gentle readers, in the hope that you can apply to the 2006 Cincy Reds bullpen:

"I curse their head and all the hairs of their head; I curse their face, their brain (innermost thoughts), their mouth, their nose, their tongue, their teeth, their forehead, their shoulders, their breast, their heart, their stomach, their back, their womb, their arms, their legs, their hands, their feet, and every part of their body, from the top of their head to the soles of their feet, before and behind, within and without."

"I curse them going and I curse them riding; I curse them standing and I curse them sitting; I curse them eating and I curse them drinking; I curse them rising, and I curse them lying; I curse them at home, I curse them away from home; I curse them within the house, I curse them outside of the house; I curse their wives, their children, and their servants who participate in their deeds. I (bring ill wishes upon) their crops, their cattle, their wool, their sheep, their horses, their swine, their geese, their hens, and all their livestock. I (bring ill wishes upon) their halls, their chambers, their kitchens, their stanchions, their barns, their cowsheds, their barnyards, their cabbage patches, their plows, their harrows, and the goods and houses that are necessary for their sustenance and welfare."

"May all the malevolent wishes and curses ever known, since the beginning of the world, to this hour, light on them. May the malediction of God, that fell upon Lucifer and all his fellows, that cast them from the high Heaven to the deep hell, light upon them."

"May the fire and the sword that stopped Adam from the gates of Paradise, stop them from the glory of Heaven, until they forebear, and make amends."

"May the evil that fell upon cursed Cain, when he slew his brother Abel, needlessly, fall on them for the needless slaughter that they commit daily."

"May the malediction that fell upon all the world, man and beast, and all that ever took life, when all were drowned by the flood of Noah, except Noah and his ark, fall upon them and drown them, man and beast, and make this realm free of them, for their wicked sins."

"May the thunder and lightning which rained down upon Sodom and Gomorra and all the lands surrounding them, and burned them for their vile sins, rain down upon them and burn them for their open sins. May the evil and confusion that fell on the Gigantis for their oppression and pride in building the Tower of Babylon, confound them and all their works, for their open callous disregard and oppression."

"May all the plagues that fell upon Pharaoh and his people of Egypt, their lands, crops and cattle, fall upon them, their equipment, their places, their lands, their crops and livestock."

"May the waters of the Tweed and other waters which they use, drown them, as the Red Sea drowned King Pharaoh and the people of Egypt, preserving God's people of Israel."

"May the earth open, split and cleave, and swallow them straight to hell, as it swallowed cursed Dathan and Abiron, who disobeyed Moses and the command of God."

"May the wild fire that reduced Thore and his followers to two-hundred-fifty in number, and others from 14,000 to 7,000 at anys, usurping against Moses and Aaron, servants of God, suddenly burn and consume them daily, for opposing the commands of God and Holy Church."

"May the malediction that suddenly fell upon fair Absolom, riding through the wood against his father, King David, when the branches of a tree knocked him from his horse and hanged him by the hair, fall upon these untrue Scotsmen and hang them the same way, that all the world may see."

"May the malediction that fell upon Nebuchadnezzar's lieutenant, Olifernus, making war and savagery upon true Christian men; the malediction that fell upon Judas, Pilate, Herod, and the Jews that crucified Our Lord; and all the plagues and troubles that fell on the city of Jerusalem therefore, and upon Simon Magus for his treachery, bloody Nero, Ditius Magcensius, Olibrius, Julianus Apostita and the rest of the cruel tyrants who slew and murdered Christ's holy servants, fall upon them for their cruel tyranny and murder of Christian people."

"And may all the vengeance that ever was taken since the world began, for open sins, and all the plagues and pestilence that ever fell on man or beast, fall on them for their openly evil ways, senseless slaughter and shedding of innocent blood."

"I sever and part them from the church of God, and deliver them immediately to the devil of hell, as the Apostle Paul delivered Corinth. I bar the entrance of all places they come to, for divine service and ministration of the sacraments of holy church, except the sacrament of infant baptism, only; and I forbid all churchmen to hear their confession or to absolve them of their sins, until they are first humbled / subjugated by this curse."

"I forbid all Christian men or women to have any company with them, eating, drinking, speaking, praying, lying, going, standing, or in any other deed-doing, under the pain of deadly sin."

"I discharge all bonds, acts, contracts, oaths, made to them by any persons, out of loyalty, kindness, or personal duty, so long as they sustain this cursing, by which no man will be bound to them, and this will be binding on all men."

"I take from them, and cast down all the good deeds that ever they did, or shall do, until they rise from this cursing."

"I declare them excluded from all matins, masses, evening prayers, funerals or other prayers, on book or bead (rosary); of all pilgrimages and alms deeds done, or to be done in holy church or be Christian people, while this curse is in effect."

"And, finally, I condemn them perpetually to the deep pit of hell, there to remain with Lucifer and all his fellows, and their bodies to the gallows of Burrow moor, first to be hanged, then ripped and torn by dogs, swine, and other wild beasts, abominable to all the world. And their candle (light of their life) goes from your sight, as may their souls go from the face of God, and their good reputation from the world, until they forebear their open sins, aforesaid, and rise from this terrible cursing and make satisfaction and penance."
Hey, FCB, you are not supposed to inject religion on this side of the board.;)
Actually, I liked the post very much. The arms of Hammonds and Weathers are definitely cursed. They should be released, period.

chicoruiz
06-30-2006, 07:21 AM
Does anyone else think it would be a nifty idea for Esteban Yan to spend the All-Star break at Mario Soto's Changeup Academy?

I think he's one guy who could really benefit.

Matt700wlw
06-30-2006, 03:55 PM
Hopefully tonight will be the last we see of Hammond and Weathers in setup roles.

1 for 2 isn't bad.

Kc61
06-30-2006, 04:25 PM
The question is why stay with the old guys who have shown they can't get it done and are just lucky to have a job. Belisle looked great last night so where was he Jerry?

I said before the season that White, Burns and Hammond had no business being on the roster. Wayne, fix the problem and remove the temptation from Narron.


Maybe coming off a back injury Narron didn't want to use Belisle last night. Maybe Jerry remembers that Belisle hasn't exactly been Mariano Rivera throughout his career.

I think folks should be more understanding as to the specific bullpen decisions. The bullpen is poor. The choices are difficult because there is little to choose from. Today everyone is thrilled Shack is back. When Shack was last with the Reds, everyone said he needs to go back to AAA because he had a couple of bad games. Wait till Belisle has a bad game; we'll hear (correctly) that he hasn't been consistent as a Reds reliever. But today he is the superstar who should have pitched last night.

The problem is with the pitchers, not the manager. Narron is faced with deciding which pitcher, of an ineffective lot, might possibly be ok for one night. Until somebody shows some consistency in this bullpen, Narron is simply making educated guesses.

registerthis
06-30-2006, 04:31 PM
Vent my frustrations at the bullpen? OK.

AAAAUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHHH

I feel better, thanks.

RedlegJake
06-30-2006, 06:12 PM
There isn't an arm in the minors that a/I think would be an improvement or b/that wouldn't be rushing it to promote now. The better prospects are still too far away although I do believe we'll see Bailey before the season is over.