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WVRedsFan
06-29-2006, 11:43 PM
Just to review:

Chirs Hammond, in his last ten appearances, has pitched 10 innings, allowed 13 hits, 9 runs, and has an ERA of 8.10.

David Weathers, in his last ten appearances, has pitched 9.1 innings, allowed 18 (yes, 18) hits, 12 earned runs, and has an ERA of 11.90.

Given those numbers, why would you let them pitch in a game with less than a seven (or 10) run lead? Would you?

Before anyone says there isn't much choice, Belisle and Yan both have better records over the last 10. Heck, even Mercker and Burns do.

Time to make some cuts or forget about Hammonds and Weathers in close games. Please.

Reds1
06-30-2006, 12:48 AM
Agreed. I was so pissed when I saw Hammonds come in and then Weathers. Are you kidding me. I knew he'd blow it. Just don't get it why they get so many chances.

KronoRed
06-30-2006, 01:12 AM
Stick them in the back of the pen if they won't be dumped

RedsBaron
06-30-2006, 06:46 AM
Release them.

MrCinatit
06-30-2006, 07:21 AM
Release them.

Amen.
Let them do it for another team. Bring in some yung-uns and let them see if they can do bett...what am i saying? I could do better.

oneupper
06-30-2006, 07:56 AM
Release them.

Not even necesary. Put them on waivers and someone WILL pick them up.
(White got picked up).

GAC
06-30-2006, 08:03 AM
Release them.

How'd that Tom Jone's song go?.....

"Oh please release them, let them go
For we know that they can't throw
To keep them in the bullpen would be a sin
So release them, and hope we'll get a win"

Krusty
06-30-2006, 08:27 AM
If the Reds can acquire two veterans for the bullpen come the July trading deadline, I'm all for giving Hammond, Weathers and Mercker the boot.

membengal
06-30-2006, 08:31 AM
Funny (sad funny) part was that Narron (our manager until the end of the decade) on the pre-game mentioned them as being clearly in the mix to pitch at the end of games, showing no recognition of how gawd-awful they are.

I don't understand why he continues to use them in late and close situations. It's a joke.

Ltlabner
06-30-2006, 08:35 AM
I was supportive of the Narron contract extenion yesterday, and still am. However, the decision to follow Hammond with Weathers last night was horrible. When he took the mound you could feal the life-force being sucked out of the team. Belisle had just pitched very well the night before. Coffee is strong (desite some struggles). Even Standridge would have been a better choice.

GAC
06-30-2006, 08:36 AM
Funny (sad funny) part was that Narron (our manager until the end of the decade) on the pre-game mentioned them as being clearly in the mix to pitch at the end of games, showing no recognition of how gawd-awful they are.

I don't understand why he continues to use them in late and close situations. It's a joke.

He doesn't have any alternatives really. Have Yan, Standridge, or Mercker shown their worth/reliability?

Even Coffey has struggled.

It's pretty much toss a coin in the air with this bullpen; but Narron has to use what was dealt him.

WVRedsFan
06-30-2006, 09:43 AM
He doesn't have any alternatives really. Have Yan, Standridge, or Mercker shown their worth/reliability?

Even Coffey has struggled.

It's pretty much toss a coin in the air with this bullpen; but Narron has to use what was dealt him.

Have Hammonda or Coffey.

GAC
06-30-2006, 09:51 AM
Have Hammonda or Coffey.

They all have.... that's my point.

Pick your poison. ;)

vaticanplum
06-30-2006, 10:00 AM
The ONLY thing I can think of is that Narron was trotting them out against a terrible team to either a) give them one last chance to prove themselves, or b) save his "better" (relative term here) relief pitchers for Cleveland -- which you shouldn't have to do with relievers, but whatever. It's not a chance I think is worth taking, as another loss to KC would have been humiliating and harmful, but I'll forgie him if he DFAs them.

registerthis
06-30-2006, 10:04 AM
I just hope something is being done to address this situation. The status quo is simply not sustainable.

If Krivsky doesn't want to trade valuable pieces of the team for bullpen help, fine. Then trade negligible farm help for other team's negligible farm help and see what happens. Keep going after the Esteban Yan's of the baseball world, keep looking for another Belisle. SOMETHING. Because, and this is one of those rare times where this statement is actually true--anyone the Reds bring in couldn't be any worse than the human batting tees tehy're runnign out there right now.

As a Reds fan, I'd much rather see Yan missing the plate with a 95 mph fastball than I would watch Hammonds throw 82 MPH "heat" over the heart of the plate.

membengal
06-30-2006, 11:52 AM
I have no problem seeing Yan in ahead of Weathers at this point. None at all.

Big Klu
06-30-2006, 12:15 PM
Though Esteban Yan hasn't been good, one thing that he has in his favor is that he can create his own outs (that is, if he can get the ball over the plate). He has a 94-95 MPH fastball, and sometimes that can get you out of trouble.

But I wouldn't want to rely on him too much.

OldXOhio
06-30-2006, 12:29 PM
Hammond's numbers are remarkably similar to where Rick White's were when the Reds DFA'd him. Lefty or not, his days are numbered.

WMR
06-30-2006, 12:32 PM
I think Jerry managed last night's game like an idiot. Losing 2 of 3 to the Royals would be a disaster; esp. having it happen at home. That's one of those games you nail down with your best relievers. Dumb managing.

realreds1
06-30-2006, 12:41 PM
I hate to bring health into this equation, but how much weight has Weathers gained since last season? When he labors, he really labors. He's looking less like Tackleberry and more like the Stay-Puft marshmallow man.

JaxRed
06-30-2006, 12:45 PM
It was Englebert Humperdinck (and for those of you less than 45, no, I'm not making that up)

Guacarock
06-30-2006, 12:52 PM
He doesn't have any alternatives really. Have Yan, Standridge, or Mercker shown their worth/reliability?

Even Coffey has struggled.

It's pretty much toss a coin in the air with this bullpen; but Narron has to use what was dealt him.

No alternatives? Narrron's damned regardless of which way he turns because all of our relievers are stinking up the joint? None are more worthy than any others?

Horse pucky.

Let's examine the June ERAs of everyone who's gone through our bullpen over the course of the month, starting from the best and descending to the worst:

Belisle, 0.00 ERA in 1 game.
Germano, 0.00 ERA in 1 game.
Mays, 2.08 ERA in 4 games (1 a start).
White, 3.38 ERA in 6 games.
Mercker, 3.68 ERA in 9 games.
Yan, 4.22 ERA in 11 games.
Coffey, 5.84 ERA in 12 games.
Hammond, 9.66 ERA in 13 games.
Weathers, 11.57 ERA in 10 games.

What this tells me? We have two relievers who have fallen off the cliff. Everyone else has performed adequately. Coffey maybe has not been as dominant as he was in April and May, but certainly he can't be lumped together with Hammond and Weathers as absolute fodder.

So, while we have most of our relievers doing A-OK or OK, which two relievers are getting most of the work? Who are the go-to guys for Jerry Narron?

Lo and behold, Hammond and Weathers. In other words, the worst possible alternatives are the two Narron favors. Narron has better options. He just chooses not to exercise those options. He may have his reasons, but if you ask me, he's playing with fire. He must shoulder at least partial blame for the meltdown of this bullpen, owing to how he has mishandled its parts, going back to the spring with his curt dismissal of Hancock. So macho. So stupid

BRM
06-30-2006, 01:43 PM
Hammond is gone per Marc.


The Reds have designated Chris Hammond for assignment.

Brian Shackelford has been recalled from Louisville to take his roster spot.

Chip R
06-30-2006, 01:43 PM
Release them.

Looks like half your wish has come true.

registerthis
06-30-2006, 01:48 PM
I'm never one to celebrate other's misfortunes--in this case, the likely end of Hammond's baseball career--but thank God. Last night was just ridiculous.

RFS62
06-30-2006, 01:52 PM
I'm never one to celebrate other's misfortunes--in this case, the likely end of Hammond's baseball career--but thank God. Last night was just ridiculous.


I agree

Caveat Emperor
06-30-2006, 01:55 PM
I'm never one to celebrate other's misfortunes--in this case, the likely end of Hammond's baseball career--but thank God. Last night was just ridiculous.

It's not like Shackelford is THAT much better of an option.

ochre
06-30-2006, 02:01 PM
It's not like Shackelford is THAT much better of an option.
agreed.

I think that's the explanation for the inertia we've experienced in this situation.

Falls City Beer
06-30-2006, 02:01 PM
It's not like Shackelford is THAT much better of an option.

He's not. I'm not even firmly convinced that he's a LOOGY, in the way others seem to be. Anyone who is as bad as Shackelford is against righties is not going to be miraculous or even particularly good against lefties over the long haul; pitchers can have strong lefty/righty splits, but it's the incredibly rare pitcher whose splits are so dramatic L/R, that he warrants a spot on a MLB roster, particularly on a team like Reds, dying for anyone to retire anybody, not just lefties.

This team needs long relief guys like Germano, when you have 3-4 inning starters like Milton and Mays at the back of your rotation; they don't need a guy who can come in and face one batter (Shack) only to turn it over to Weathers in the same inning. That's really a waste of a roster spot.

Patrick Bateman
06-30-2006, 02:01 PM
I still like Hammond. He missed some bats this year without walking many. He was prone to the longball, but I honestly think he's a better option then some of the other guys in the pen (Weathers, Merker, Yan). He obviously wasn't getting acceptable results, but I think he had a better chamce of turning things around.

NJReds
06-30-2006, 02:03 PM
It's not like Shackelford is THAT much better of an option.

But if used correctly...

Lefties this year are only 3-for-18 v. Shack; 2 BB/5 K

v. RH is really ugly, though.

registerthis
06-30-2006, 02:13 PM
It's not like Shackelford is THAT much better of an option.

No, he's not. But we know with cold, hard certainty that hammond wasn't the answer to anything. If Shack isn't either, we'll try someone new. No harm in fresh blood, though.

smith288
06-30-2006, 02:18 PM
I think at this stage, i'd rather take the unknown than Hammond.

ochre
06-30-2006, 02:24 PM
Shack has some upside, being lefty, fairly young, and a recent position player convert are all things that could indicate he has room to grow. Hammond, for the baseball purposes, was largely done growing.

Big Klu
06-30-2006, 02:26 PM
I think at this stage, i'd rather take the unknown than Hammond.

Cake, or death?

flyer85
06-30-2006, 02:26 PM
It's not like Shackelford is THAT much better of an option.if used properly(as a LOOGY) he certainly is. Shack is tough on lefties.

Removing Hammond is addition by subtraction because Narron will no longer succumb to the temptation of using this scrappy vet in an important situation.

It only took 'em three months to get three guys(Burns, White, Hammond) off the roster that I felt had no business being there on opening day.

Big Klu
06-30-2006, 02:35 PM
I agree with FCB. (Oh God, I can't believe I just said that! :) ) The LOOGY is a "luxury" that this club cannot afford. The Reds need pitchers that can simply retire batters--regardless of which hand they throw with or which way the hitter is batting. A pitcher who only faces one or two batters is a misallocation of a roster spot, in my opinion. Hopefully Shackelford can continue to retire lefties but also get some right-handers out, too.

PuffyPig
06-30-2006, 02:47 PM
The Reds need pitchers that can simply retire batters--regardless of which hand they throw with or which way the hitter is batting. A pitcher who only faces one or two batters is a misallocation of a roster spot, in my opinion.

If we had a number of pitchers who could simply get out all batters, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Better a pitcher who can get out LH hitters than a pitcher who can't get out anyone.

Because our choices are limited.

flyer85
06-30-2006, 02:53 PM
The problem is that Narron has shown no ability to understand that as a LOOGY it means Shack should NEVER face a righty in a critical situation. A manager has to be prepared to use multiple pitchers in an inning (something Narron only does when forced to by bad pitching) to properly utilize a LOOGY. Narron's goal is to use no more than one pitcher an inning unless poor performance dictates otherwise.

All this means that there is a high likelihood that Shack will not be used properly by Narron which will lead to poor outcomes.

Matt700wlw
06-30-2006, 03:05 PM
On deck....David Weathers.

He won't survive much longer.

Kc61
06-30-2006, 03:15 PM
On deck....David Weathers.

He won't survive much longer.

Ask me, I would be more concerned about Mercker. Weathers has done excellent work for the Reds until recently. It is possible he's now done, but I think he has earned a couple of additional weeks to see if he can round into form.

As for Mercker, I don't think he's been right all year. I wonder if he can round back into form.

Matt700wlw
06-30-2006, 03:30 PM
Ask me, I would be more concerned about Mercker. Weathers has done excellent work for the Reds until recently. It is possible he's now done, but I think he has earned a couple of additional weeks to see if he can round into form.



I hope he can. I hope he can stay.

Unless he's injured (which he very well could be), then he's done.

If he's injured, put him on DL and try to get him right and bring somebody up who's deserving.


I'm done watching him stink it up though, it's old and tired.

RedsMan3203
06-30-2006, 03:33 PM
What the heck is a LOOGY?

Kc61
06-30-2006, 03:33 PM
I hope he can. I hope he can stay.

Unless he's injured (which he very well could be), then he's done.

If he's injured, put him on DL and try to get him right and bring somebody up who's deserving.


I'm done watching him stink it up though, it's old and tired.

Yeah, with Mercker it's less of a problem since they don't use him much.

Matt700wlw
06-30-2006, 03:34 PM
What the heck is a LOOGY?

Phlem?

RedsMan3203
06-30-2006, 03:51 PM
Phlem?


You mean, its not a baseball term? :help:

Krusty
06-30-2006, 04:15 PM
We're just trying to keep the bullpen afloat till the trading deadline. By then, it wouldn't surprise me to see Krivsky trade for two relievers for the stretch run.

Guacarock
06-30-2006, 04:15 PM
What the heck is a LOOGY?

Lefty One Out GuY. In other words, a southpaw usually brought in to pitch to one left-handed batter, maybe two consecutive LH-batters, in critical, late-inning situations.

WVRedsFan
06-30-2006, 04:44 PM
Since I started this thread, I'll post one more time.

Chris Hammond seemed like a nice guy, but in sports being a nice guy should have no determination on who should be on your team.

Chris Hammond, if not done, wasn't working out with this team.. the shocking thing is that it took so long for Narron to figure this out. I sometimes think Narron is a gambler so he throws whoever in and hopes he does well. I think you can see that in his decisions. Of course, the loss of Vern Ruhle can't help any.

Anyway, best wishes to Chris Hammond, and if he wants to play again, I hope some team picks him up.

Falls City Beer
06-30-2006, 04:49 PM
Germano represents the possibility of getting guys out from either side of the plate. I'd have gone with him.

flyer85
06-30-2006, 04:51 PM
Germano represents the possibility of getting guys out from either side of the plate. I'd have gone with him.never know, he may be replacing Mays shortly. I have a hard time believing that Mays will have any level of success as a starter.

Falls City Beer
06-30-2006, 04:57 PM
never know, he may be replacing Mays shortly. I have a hard time believing that Mays will have any level of success as a starter.

Krivsky's gotten rid of players acquired by past regimes, but has yet to dump his own mistakes (Yan, Castro). So we'll see in regard to Mays; it may be a while.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-30-2006, 04:58 PM
Krivsky's gotten rid of players acquired by past regimes, but has yet to dump his own mistakes (Yan, Castro). So we'll see in regard to Mays; it may be a while.

Don't forget QM. He was WK's right?

Cedric
06-30-2006, 05:00 PM
Krivsky's gotten rid of players acquired by past regimes, but has yet to dump his own mistakes (Yan, Castro). So we'll see in regard to Mays; it may be a while.

Castro is the 25th man, why in the world is he whined about so much here? And yeah Yan is horrible, but it's not like we have even a semi decent option in the minors.
This board is known for over analyzing the 25th man to the point of utter stupidity.

BuckeyeRedleg
06-30-2006, 05:02 PM
Castro is the 25th man, why in the world is he whined about so much here? And yeah Yan is horrible, but it's not like we have even a semi decent option in the minors.
This board is known for over analyzing the 25th man to the point of utter stupidity.

Not if the 23rd, 24th, or 25th man stands in the way of EE making it back.

I don't mind Castro as a late-inning defensive replacment (as long as he never sees an AB), but QM needs to go yesterday.

....and there are several semi-decent options for the BP in Chattanooga, Cedric.

Falls City Beer
06-30-2006, 05:05 PM
Castro is the 25th man, why in the world is he whined about so much here? And yeah Yan is horrible, but it's not like we have even a semi decent option in the minors.
This board is known for over analyzing the 25th man to the point of utter stupidity.

So the list of ineptitude extends well beyond the 25th man? Perish the thought...

QM, Castro, Yan...23-25 men on the roster and they bring absolutely nothing. Nothing at all.

Why?

If you accept something just because you perceive there aren't better alternatives, you'll always settle for less.

Why? Why do so?

Cedric
06-30-2006, 05:06 PM
If the reason Encarnacion is not on this team is because of a full roster than Wayne is dumb to the point of DanO. I highly doubt Edwin Encarnacion is in Louisville for any extended period of time.

Falls City Beer
06-30-2006, 05:07 PM
If the reason Encarnacion is not on this team is because of a full roster than Wayne is dumb to the point of DanO. I highly doubt Edwin Encarnacion is in Louisville for any extended period of time.

My money's on a pitcher getting the boot when E gets back.

Cedric
06-30-2006, 05:07 PM
So list of ineptitude extends well beyond the 25th man? Perish the thought...

QM, Castro, Yan...23-25 men on the roster and they bring absolutely nothing. Nothing at all.

Why?

If you accept something just because you perceive there aren't better alternatives, you'll always settle for less.

Why? Why do so?

Percieve or reality? We are at the point to where Brian Shackleford actually get's another chance.

Cedric
06-30-2006, 05:08 PM
My money's on a pitcher getting the boot when E gets back.

As well it should be in my opinion. 12 man pitching staffs are just stupid in this league.

Falls City Beer
06-30-2006, 05:10 PM
As well it should be in my opinion. 12 man pitching staffs are just stupid in this league.

I agree. I was only mentioning it because we'll still have wastoids like QM and Castro on the roster.

Matt700wlw
06-30-2006, 05:27 PM
Narron on the pregame said he will use Shack as a situational lefty.

One and out if that's the way it has to be.


Good.

GAC
06-30-2006, 05:28 PM
No alternatives? Narrron's damned regardless of which way he turns because all of our relievers are stinking up the joint? None are more worthy than any others?

Horse pucky.

Let's examine the June ERAs of everyone who's gone through our bullpen over the course of the month, starting from the best and descending to the worst:

Belisle, 0.00 ERA in 1 game.
Germano, 0.00 ERA in 1 game.
Mays, 2.08 ERA in 4 games (1 a start).
White, 3.38 ERA in 6 games.
Mercker, 3.68 ERA in 9 games.
Yan, 4.22 ERA in 11 games.
Coffey, 5.84 ERA in 12 games.
Hammond, 9.66 ERA in 13 games.
Weathers, 11.57 ERA in 10 games.

What this tells me? We have two relievers who have fallen off the cliff. Everyone else has performed adequately. Coffey maybe has not been as dominant as he was in April and May, but certainly he can't be lumped together with Hammond and Weathers as absolute fodder.

So, while we have most of our relievers doing A-OK or OK, which two relievers are getting most of the work? Who are the go-to guys for Jerry Narron?

Lo and behold, Hammond and Weathers. In other words, the worst possible alternatives are the two Narron favors. Narron has better options. He just chooses not to exercise those options. He may have his reasons, but if you ask me, he's playing with fire. He must shoulder at least partial blame for the meltdown of this bullpen, owing to how he has mishandled its parts, going back to the spring with his curt dismissal of Hancock. So macho. So stupid

White is gone, and two of those relievers (Mercker and Belisle) were/are on the DL. Belisle may be coming back soon.

And Mays is in the rotation with Williams DFA'd already.

So Narron's "go to" list shrunk.

And I never said Coffey had become fodder. Those are your words, not mine.

But his June numbers were definitely not impressive.

5.84 ERA (6.00 in the last 7 days).

That is not what one wants out of a "lights out" closer. ;)

Big Klu
06-30-2006, 05:46 PM
The problem is that Narron has shown no ability to understand that as a LOOGY it means Shack should NEVER face a righty in a critical situation. A manager has to be prepared to use multiple pitchers in an inning (something Narron only does when forced to by bad pitching) to properly utilize a LOOGY. Narron's goal is to use no more than one pitcher an inning unless poor performance dictates otherwise.

All this means that there is a high likelihood that Shack will not be used properly by Narron which will lead to poor outcomes.


Shackelford should NEVER face a righty? Let's say that you bring Shack into a tight game with a lefty batting (say, tonight...up by one run in the top of the seventh, and the Tribe have the bases loaded and Ben Broussard at bat). The opposing manager is going to bring in a right-handed pinch-hitter (in this case, Eduardo Perez) to bat for the lefty, and now you are stuck with Shack facing a righty.

I disagree with the entire concept of the LOOGY--I think that using (I hesitate to use the term "wasting") a roster spot on a pitcher whose sole purpose is to face only one batter is wrong-headed. (Though I also think that carrying 12 pitchers is wasteful too--so if the Reds are going to do that, one of them might as well be a LOOGY.)

However, setting my personal biases aside, it is my understanding that a true left-handed specialist needs to be able to retire right-handed hitters, because he is sometimes going to see righties who are pinch-hitting for the guy he was originally brought in to face.

Matt700wlw
06-30-2006, 06:13 PM
Narron kind of called out the bullpen on the pregame show too...

He basically said if they don't pitch well and end up not being here, it's nobody's fault but their own. They have to pitch well.

His patience may be wearing thin

Big Klu
06-30-2006, 06:25 PM
Shackelford should NEVER face a righty? Let's say that you bring Shack into a tight game with a lefty batting (say, tonight...up by one run in the top of the seventh, and the Tribe have the bases loaded and Ben Broussard at bat). The opposing manager is going to bring in a right-handed pinch-hitter (in this case, Eduardo Perez) to bat for the lefty, and now you are stuck with Shack facing a righty.

OK, never mind about Perez. He just got traded to the Mariners. But you get the idea.

harangatang
06-30-2006, 07:11 PM
White is gone, and two of those relievers (Mercker and Belisle) were/are on the DL. Belisle may be coming back soon.Belisle is back off the DL and pitched a couple of days ago.

KronoRed
06-30-2006, 10:45 PM
1 down, 3 to go

RedsMan3203
07-01-2006, 01:42 AM
Lefty One Out GuY. In other words, a southpaw usually brought in to pitch to one left-handed batter, maybe two consecutive LH-batters, in critical, late-inning situations.


Thank You... I knew it was something like that but couldn't put together the words....

I always thought they were known as left handed specialist. ;)

Guacarock
07-01-2006, 02:45 AM
Krivsky's gotten rid of players acquired by past regimes, but has yet to dump his own mistakes (Yan, Castro). So we'll see in regard to Mays; it may be a while.

It's premature to characterize Yan as a mistake. He has made 12 relief appearances for the Reds, pitching 12.2 innings. He's won a game, collected a save, and posted a 4.26 ERA. Granted, his performance will not go down in the record books, but his ERA is nearly a full run better than our bullpen average, a good two runs ahead of the vets like White and Hammond receiving their pink slips. Yan might always regress, but if he keeps doing what he's done for us, this was a nice, cheap, painless pickup.

It's also too early to blast the reacquisition of Castro. Not that I expect Castro to come out blazing, routinely jacking three-run homers like he did pinch-hitting in tonight's game against Cleveland.

But his return as a Red gives us the flexibility later in July to trade Olmedo, Aurilia or Freel for a true bullpen stud. We don't have many trading chits. And we will need to secure the services of at least one bullpen stud to sustain any hope of a pennant or playoff drive in '06.

If you ask me, I'd rather deal off Olmedo, Aurilia or Freel than raid our stockpile of pitching prospects at Chattanooga to fill this need. The loss of Freel would hurt the most, but conversely, he also could probably fetch us a lights-out reliever. And we do have Denorfia waiting in the wings, a battle-proven OF prospect at Louisville whose ascendency is being blocked by Freel.

GAC
07-01-2006, 06:28 AM
It's premature to characterize Yan as a mistake. He has made 12 relief appearances for the Reds, pitching 12.2 innings. He's won a game, collected a save, and posted a 4.26 ERA. Granted, his performance will not go down in the record books, but his ERA is nearly a full run better than our bullpen average, a good two runs ahead of the vets like White and Hammond receiving their pink slips. Yan might always regress, but if he keeps doing what he's done for us, this was a nice, cheap, painless pickup.

It's also too early to blast the reacquisition of Castro. Not that I expect Castro to come out blazing, routinely jacking three-run homers like he did pinch-hitting in tonight's game against Cleveland.

But his return as a Red gives us the flexibility later in July to trade Olmedo, Aurilia or Freel for a true bullpen stud. We don't have many trading chits. And we will need to secure the services of at least one bullpen stud to sustain any hope of a pennant or playoff drive in '06.

If you ask me, I'd rather deal off Olmedo, Aurilia or Freel than raid our stockpile of pitching prospects at Chattanooga to fill this need. The loss of Freel would hurt the most, but conversely, he also could probably fetch us a lights-out reliever. And we do have Denorfia waiting in the wings, a battle-proven OF prospect at Louisville whose ascendency is being blocked by Freel.

:thumbup:

traderumor
07-01-2006, 10:04 AM
Krivsky's gotten rid of players acquired by past regimes, but has yet to dump his own mistakes (Yan, Castro). So we'll see in regard to Mays; it may be a while.
I would much rather see Yan out there than Weathers, although I realize that is quite the faint praise. And Castro was just acquired, and Yan was recently as well. Yan could be serviceable if Narron continues to get it through his head that he is going to have to manage this bullpen like LaRussa--an out here, an out there. Bring Yan in to face a couple of righties and remove him against lefties.

But back to the point of cutting two guys he just acquired is just your way of saying you don't like the acquisitions. No GM is going to have that quick of a trigger unless the wheels totally fall off. Castro has done the job he has been asked to do so far.

LINEDRIVER
07-01-2006, 10:23 AM
How'd that Tom Jone's song go?.....

"Oh please release them, let them go
For we know that they can't throw
To keep them in the bullpen would be a sin
So release them, and hope we'll get a win"

Wasn't that Englebert Humperdinck??

SteelSD
07-01-2006, 02:06 PM
It's premature to characterize Yan as a mistake. He has made 12 relief appearances for the Reds, pitching 12.2 innings. He's won a game, collected a save, and posted a 4.26 ERA. Granted, his performance will not go down in the record books, but his ERA is nearly a full run better than our bullpen average, a good two runs ahead of the vets like White and Hammond receiving their pink slips. Yan might always regress, but if he keeps doing what he's done for us, this was a nice, cheap, painless pickup.

Esteban Yan's current OPS Against is 1.003. His 4.26 ERA with the Reds is a mirage. He is what he's always been- a wild, sporadic, HR-prone powder keg. That's the opposite of painless.


It's also too early to blast the reacquisition of Castro. Not that I expect Castro to come out blazing, routinely jacking three-run homers like he did pinch-hitting in tonight's game against Cleveland.

But his return as a Red gives us the flexibility later in July to trade Olmedo, Aurilia or Freel for a true bullpen stud. We don't have many trading chits. And we will need to secure the services of at least one bullpen stud to sustain any hope of a pennant or playoff drive in '06.

If you ask me, I'd rather deal off Olmedo, Aurilia or Freel than raid our stockpile of pitching prospects at Chattanooga to fill this need. The loss of Freel would hurt the most, but conversely, he also could probably fetch us a lights-out reliever. And we do have Denorfia waiting in the wings, a battle-proven OF prospect at Louisville whose ascendency is being blocked by Freel.

The Reds would have the flexibility to trade Olmedo, Aurilia, or Freel without Juan Castro because they'd still have two of Olmedo, Aurilia, or Freel if they traded one off (and the only one worth anything is Freel).

Aquiring bad players doesn't make trading good players more palatable. And when the idea of trading for Juan Castro enters someone's mind it should be considered a thought crime.

Caveat Emperor
07-01-2006, 02:26 PM
And when the idea of trading for Juan Castro enters someone's mind it should be considered a thought crime.

It'd be like Baseball's version of Minority Report.

How useful would that've been during the Dan O'Brien regime? End of December 2004, a bunch of guys in SWAT gear bust into the GABP front offices:

Precrime Cop: "Daniel O'Brien?!"
Dan'O: "What?! What is this!? Security!"
Precrime Cop: "You're under arrest for contemplating the signing of Eric Milton!"
Dan'O: "How in the world-?!"
Precrime Cop: "Get moving. You have the right to remain silent..."

KronoRed
07-01-2006, 04:07 PM
/\ If only we'd had that :(


;)

GAC
07-01-2006, 05:48 PM
Wasn't that Englebert Humperdinck??

They both released it.

edabbs44
07-01-2006, 05:51 PM
[QUOTE=SteelSD]The Reds would have the flexibility to trade Olmedo, Aurilia, or Freel without Juan Castro because they'd still have two of Olmedo, Aurilia, or Freel if they traded one off (and the only one worth anything is Freel).[QUOTE]

I think Olmedo is nothing more than a bench player. Aurilia actually has value vs LHPs. Freel is much more valuable than both of them, but I wouldn't say dealing Aurilia is expendable because of Olmedo.

Falls City Beer
07-02-2006, 04:45 PM
It's premature to characterize Yan as a mistake. He has made 12 relief appearances for the Reds, pitching 12.2 innings. He's won a game, collected a save, and posted a 4.26 ERA. Granted, his performance will not go down in the record books, but his ERA is nearly a full run better than our bullpen average, a good two runs ahead of the vets like White and Hammond receiving their pink slips. Yan might always regress, but if he keeps doing what he's done for us, this was a nice, cheap, painless pickup.

It's also too early to blast the reacquisition of Castro. Not that I expect Castro to come out blazing, routinely jacking three-run homers like he did pinch-hitting in tonight's game against Cleveland.

But his return as a Red gives us the flexibility later in July to trade Olmedo, Aurilia or Freel for a true bullpen stud. We don't have many trading chits. And we will need to secure the services of at least one bullpen stud to sustain any hope of a pennant or playoff drive in '06.

If you ask me, I'd rather deal off Olmedo, Aurilia or Freel than raid our stockpile of pitching prospects at Chattanooga to fill this need. The loss of Freel would hurt the most, but conversely, he also could probably fetch us a lights-out reliever. And we do have Denorfia waiting in the wings, a battle-proven OF prospect at Louisville whose ascendency is being blocked by Freel.

Come on.

All you have to do is look at their career numbers--they both suck ferociously.

Just because Krivsky acquired them doesn't mean they're going to automatically get better. It's there in black and white. They're terrible players. There's just no arguing that point.

Ltlabner
07-02-2006, 05:55 PM
Yes yes, what they should do is DFA all the players the Reds fans hate, and then feild a team of 4 guys to play every game. That would make us competitive over night. [/end sarcasim]

You guys continue to hound on these players as if there is the magic pool of grade A-studs available for the taking. All The Kriv has to do is pick up the phone, call the "baseball stud supply house" and all of a sudden 4 bull-pen hoss's, 2 ace starters, and 3 Albert Pujohls type hitters arrive at GABP ready to play ball.

Here in the real world, however, in the first 2 months of the season, nobody is trading solid players because with the exception of KC and Pittsburg everybody is in contention. So unless you overpay by titanic amounts you will not get a star player, even if a team was willing to consider to trade one. And if we did that, the same group of people would get their knickers in a bunch that we "mortgaged the future" for a short term gain.

Do I think Castro, Mays and Yan are going to take us to the world serries? Of course not, but this fantsey land where teams are made up of nothing but 25 year old hall of famers with no mediocre players just doesn't exist. Period.

The Kriv took a chance on them to see if he could incrementally improve the team. If pitcher A has a 6ERA and player B has a 5ERA that is an improvement considering how early it is in the season. Do we want a bullpen of all 5ERA's of course not. But if I can take a chance on a guy, shave a point of ERA off a guy and it doesn't cost anything, then why not do it?!?!? Maybe, just maybe, you'd get lucky and he turns in a year with a 4ERA. It's called taking a risk (see; Philips, Ross, et al).

Falls City Beer
07-02-2006, 06:11 PM
Yes yes, what they should do is DFA all the players the Reds fans hate, and then feild a team of 4 guys to play every game. That would make us competitive over night. [/end sarcasim]

You guys continue to hound on these players as if there is the magic pool of grade A-studs available for the taking. All The Kriv has to do is pick up the phone, call the "baseball stud supply house" and all of a sudden 4 bull-pen hoss's, 2 ace starters, and 3 Albert Pujohls type hitters arrive at GABP ready to play ball.

Here in the real world, however, in the first 2 months of the season, nobody is trading solid players because with the exception of KC and Pittsburg everybody is in contention. So unless you overpay by titanic amounts you will not get a star player, even if a team was willing to consider to trade one. And if we did that, the same group of people would get their knickers in a bunch that we "mortgaged the future" for a short term gain.

Do I think Castro, Mays and Yan are going to take us to the world serries? Of course not, but this fantsey land where teams are made up of nothing but 25 year old hall of famers with no mediocre players just doesn't exist. Period.

The Kriv took a chance on them to see if he could incrementally improve the team. If pitcher A has a 6ERA and player B has a 5ERA that is an improvement considering how early it is in the season. Do we want a bullpen of all 5ERA's of course not. But if I can take a chance on a guy, shave a point of ERA off a guy and it doesn't cost anything, then why not do it?!?!? Maybe, just maybe, you'd get lucky and he turns in a year with a 4ERA. It's called taking a risk (see; Philips, Ross, et al).

When you replace a 6 ERA with a 5 ERA, you improve the team in a technical sense, but not in any appreciable or noticeable way. And, perhaps more importantly, ERA is not the ultimate indicator of ability. You can name an indicator of success and in virtually each Yan comes up bankrupt--for his entire career. He's NEVER been good.