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GOREDSGO32
07-02-2006, 04:45 PM
WHY?

Why does Weathers (especially) and Mercker still have a job here? Are we just cycling through DFA's to get one out once a week and wait until THEN to have a chance with our bullpen? For God's sake, pull the plug, how many more games do we have to blow? :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :angry:

tomred
07-02-2006, 05:03 PM
You just knew that something bad was going to happen every time the bullpen comes in

GOREDSGO32
07-02-2006, 05:05 PM
Yessir

KySteveH
07-02-2006, 05:07 PM
What does this have to do with the Hoosiers?

GOREDSGO32
07-02-2006, 05:08 PM
Mistype .. the I and U are right next to each other. Although a Knight tirade would be very appropriate at this point.

jimbo
07-02-2006, 05:34 PM
It's a lot tougher to release guys making $1.5 million, like Mercker and Weathers do, than it is a guy like Hammond who makes barely over the league minimum. Drop both of those guys and Castellini burns $3 million away. I can understand the reluctancy.

I wish there was something better also, but Shackleford and Belisle reminded us yesterday that there isn't very many better options within the organization.

KySteveH
07-02-2006, 05:47 PM
Mistype .. the I and U are right next to each other. Although a Knight tirade would be very appropriate at this point.
I miss having a good Knight tirade two or three times a year.

GOREDSGO32
07-02-2006, 06:05 PM
It's a lot tougher to release guys making $1.5 million, like Mercker and Weathers do, than it is a guy like Hammond who makes barely over the league minimum. Drop both of those guys and Castellini burns $3 million away. I can understand the reluctancy.

I wish there was something better also, but Shackleford and Belisle reminded us yesterday that there isn't very many better options within the organization.

Sunk cost, they're going to earn that much either way, whether they are on the team or not. If they are in the bullpen, its just hurting the team .. do you keep them around to blow games just because you are paying for it? Not sound logic.

There may not be anything better, but why not bring up guys like Michalak and Shearn? Surely they can do better than blowing EVERY game.

BenHayes
07-02-2006, 06:26 PM
I can not think of a time in my fortyseven years of following the cincinnati reds that they have had such a poor group of relievers. Sometimes they have had poor middle relief but good enough late men and some years only average setup men and average closers but never have they gone into the late innings of a game with inept arms like this. I'm sorry to see good guys like Mercker,Hammond and Weathers end this way but enough is enough.

Ltlabner
07-03-2006, 12:40 PM
Sunk cost, they're going to earn that much either way, whether they are on the team or not. If they are in the bullpen, its just hurting the team .. do you keep them around to blow games just because you are paying for it? Not sound logic.

Actually, no. It's only a sunk cost if no other option that can provide more value can be found. In other words, if you could trade them for some prospects that would be better than eating the contract because it builds for the future. If you can convince another team to pick up any part of their contract it's better than eating the entire contract and that money can be reinvested.

Just flushing the money down the toilet without exploring every lost option that might provide you some sort of additional value is the illogical choice.

Now, once all of those options are exasuted, then I TOTALLY agree that they should be sent packing as quickly as possible and eat the contracts.

kaldaniels
07-03-2006, 12:47 PM
Actually, no. It's only a sunk cost if no other option that can provide more value can be found. In other words, if you could trade them for some prospects that would be better than eating the contract because it builds for the future. If you can convince another team to pick up any part of their contract it's better than eating the entire contract and that money can be reinvested.

Just flushing the money down the toilet without exploring every lost option that might provide you some sort of additional value is the illogical choice.

Now, once all of those options are exasuted, then I TOTALLY agree that they should be sent packing as quickly as possible and eat the contracts.

I can't imagine any team wanting those guys...let alone paying part of the contracts.

MaineRed
07-03-2006, 01:04 PM
I think the Reds thinking at this point has to be, why pay 10 or 11 guys to blow games when 6 will do.

I think that is why Narron was begging for anyone to come in and get the job done because he knows there are not any reinforcements on the way.

crazybob60
07-03-2006, 01:09 PM
Wonder what the record is for a team that has the most relievers DFA'ed during a season?

terminator
07-03-2006, 01:22 PM
I can't imagine any team wanting those guys...let alone paying part of the contracts.
The Phillies and Mets took White and Williams . . .

Then again, we picked up Mays and Yan.

All signs of how desperate everyone is for pitching.

jimbo
07-03-2006, 01:23 PM
I can't imagine any team wanting those guys...let alone paying part of the contracts.

Somebody took Rick White.

Sorry, somebody beat me to it.

IrishDavidKY
07-03-2006, 01:31 PM
Don't be surprised if Weathers isn't gone this week. No inside info. just my gut feeling. WK is about to pull the plug!

KronoRed
07-03-2006, 05:20 PM
Maybe at the next home game when Weathers or Merc come in everyone should stand up and yell "We're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore!"

;)

redsfanmia
07-03-2006, 06:21 PM
You have to have bullpen guys so I cant see them DFA'ing anymore guys IMO. Something has to change including demoting Coffey to set up guy, wonder how much Williamson or Dempster would cost the Reds?

Jr's Boy
07-03-2006, 07:03 PM
Heck give Standridge a shot at closing.

chicoruiz
07-03-2006, 07:11 PM
I mentioned it in another thread, but I'll say it again: I think the Reds should get Soto to work with Yan over the break on a change-up. If he had an off-speed pitch he could throw for a strike he'd be truly nasty.

The bottom line is that there are a whole lot more teams wanting pitching than there are teams with pitching to trade, so instead of getting new guys, you may have to settle for trying to make the guys you have pitch better.

redsfanmia
07-03-2006, 08:14 PM
I mentioned it in another thread, but I'll say it again: I think the Reds should get Soto to work with Yan over the break on a change-up. If he had an off-speed pitch he could throw for a strike he'd be truly nasty.

The bottom line is that there are a whole lot more teams wanting pitching than there are teams with pitching to trade, so instead of getting new guys, you may have to settle for trying to make the guys you have pitch better.
excellent post

pedro
07-03-2006, 08:23 PM
Weathers was pretty good last year and again in April and May of this year. He has really tanked over his last 10-15 innings pitched. I lean towards the belief that there is something physlically wrong with him and that he should be DL'd until he's able to pitch better.

Mercker OTOH, looks to me to be finished.

cinredsfan2000
07-03-2006, 09:04 PM
Where is wagner these days certainly he cant be any worse than what were treading out there day after day :angry: Where is Danny graves i'd take gravey back in a heart beat over these clowns :angry: Wheres good old jimmy sayhey haynes these day's ?:mooner:

pedro
07-03-2006, 09:07 PM
Where is wagner these days certainly he cant be any worse than what were traeding out there day after day :angry: Wheres danny graves i'd take gravey back in a heart beat over these clowns :angry: Wheres good old jimmy sayhey haynes these day's ?:mooner:


wagner is picthing worse than these guss and is doing it in the minors.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Ryan%20Wagner&pos=P&sid=t416&t=p_pbp&pid=429842

Ibleedblue
07-03-2006, 09:28 PM
I think I would still call up Wagner and cut Merk or Weathers. Wagner may be doing awful, but so are the guys at the ML level. So with that fact, I would rather watch young awful pitching than over the hill awful pitching. At least with Wagner he is young and healthy and might be a tweak away from being effective again.

Chip R
07-03-2006, 09:39 PM
I think I would still call up Wagner and cut Merk or Weathers. Wagner may be doing awful, but so are the guys at the ML level. So with that fact, I would rather watch young awful pitching than over the hill awful pitching. At least with Wagner he is young and healthy and might be a tweak away from being effective again.

But either way it is awful. Right now there is absolutely no one in that bullpen that can be trusted to pitch effectively. Yes, Wagner is young and healthy. So are Standridge and Shackelford and Shack could not even get a left handed hitting rookie out who had never got a base hit in the majors. To me that is the disappointing thing. These guys cannot even succeed in places where they are supposed to. Bringing Wagner up will not help.

cinredsfan2000
07-03-2006, 09:43 PM
I imagine Graves could be had for cheap from the indians:help: Surley he cant be any worse than what we have now right????:confused: :confused:

Ibleedblue
07-03-2006, 09:47 PM
But either way it is awful. Right now there is absolutely no one in that bullpen that can be trusted to pitch effectively. Yes, Wagner is young and healthy. So are Standridge and Shackelford and Shack could not even get a left handed hitting rookie out who had never got a base hit in the majors. To me that is the disappointing thing. These guys cannot even succeed in places where they are supposed to. Bringing Wagner up will not help.
I never said it would help. I just said I would rather see him out there than Weathers or Mercker.

gilpdawg
07-03-2006, 10:41 PM
What about Venafro? He's had some success at this level. Better than what we've got anyway.
I'd bring up Venafro and Salmon. Keep Shack around as a LOOGY. Goodbye Joe Mays, since Claussen is supposed to be ready soon, Weathers DFA, Mercker DFA. I like both of those guys, but I just think they've both lost it. Either that or they're not healthy and need to be DL'd. Either way, if we're gonna suck, I'd rather suck with guys who have a future.

RedlegJake
07-04-2006, 10:25 AM
The problem with Vanafro and Salmon is that they are probably not going to be better than Weathers. Just 2 more tired veteran arms who didn't look that good when they were in the bigs before. You don't eat DW's salary to bring up Venafro or Salmon, imo. Find a reason to DL Weathers and then try one out, that I could see. Trade Weathers for a bag of balls to free up his salary and then try one of them out. I suspect, though, the end result of those moves would be Weathers' current results with a different name.

ryanparkersongs
07-04-2006, 11:14 AM
It seems we are stuck in a situation where there really isn't an easy solution for fixing our horrific bullpen. There doesn't seem to be anyone we can bring up from the minor leagues to fix the problem. We can talk about bringing up Wagner, but that would most likely result in the same results as we see with Shackleford and others...many walks and many grapefruits lobbed up over the plate.

Weathers and Mercker have suddenly reached the other side of "over the hill". I suppose they have always been approaching it as some of you have seen it coming...but I must be honest and admit I didn't see it coming this fast and to this extent. Right now, Belisle, Standridge, and Coffey are the only 3 that I would bring into the game (and that isn't a resounding endorsement for those 3...just a choice of desperation). I wouldn't feel comfortable bringing anyone else in unless the lead was 10 runs or more.

It is sort of like the entire bullpen is decked out with softball pitchers. I have found it helps me when watching the game if I think of it that way. I don't get as upset.

I have to assume that Wayne Krivsky has been begging other GMs to give us some sort of relief pitchers for Jason Larue. At this point, though, I would be willing to take less. Just give us one pitcher who can get a "living breathing soul" out as Marty would say! At this point, I would probably give up some combination (not all 3) of Freel, Aurilia, and/or Hatteberg to get one or two "so-called" relievers.

I would not recommend the route of signing other teams' DFAs. The results using this technique are not good (see Yan and Mays). I agree with an earlier post that said we need to make our current pitchers better. Perhaps we can send them to some sort of miracle pitching camp over the All-Star break that teaches them how not to fall behind in the count, how to throw strikes that major league hitters cannot easily pummel, and how to out-think hitters like Greg Maddux does.

It is time to act on this horrendous bullpen! The Cardinals are mired in one of the worst losing streaks that I can imagine them having. Each day I seem to be uplifted when I check the scores after I am angry about the Reds loss only to see the Cardinals have lost as well (lately even to the Indians, Royals, and now Braves!). BUT what this is causing is the teams like the Astros and Brewers are now right behind us in the standings. We have to get it together before these teams catch up and make the race a real mess and before the Cardinals start winning again.

Please do something, Reds!

GOREDSGO32
07-04-2006, 03:13 PM
You people act like there is some magical way to save money here. He's a sunk cost, don't you get it? If you paid someone to tear down your house, then didn't want it tore down and couldn't get a refund, would you say 'hey just go ahead and tear it down, I need to live there and everything, but i already paid for it'.

WHY pay someone to wreck games? Just because you don't wanna 'waste' money? You're not getting anything from him, he's jsut blowing games, yet you wanna keep him on so you don't 'waste' something? Great philosophy.

jimbo
07-04-2006, 04:35 PM
WHY pay someone to wreck games? Just because you don't wanna 'waste' money? You're not getting anything from him, he's jsut blowing games, yet you wanna keep him on so you don't 'waste' something? Great philosophy.

Easy to say when it's not your money. You also have to take into consideration the cost of adding another salary to replace the million dollary salary you just dropped.

GOREDSGO32
07-04-2006, 07:02 PM
Fine, we'll just suck for the rest of the year. We're doing a good job of it lately. Sounds like good philosphy.

jimbo
07-04-2006, 07:15 PM
Third best record in the NL does not equate to suck in my book. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

MrCinatit
07-04-2006, 07:23 PM
I imagine Graves could be had for cheap from the indians:help: Surley he cant be any worse than what we have now right????:confused: :confused:

Graves sure wouldn't be better (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Danny%20Graves&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=115056)

:p:

chicoruiz
07-04-2006, 09:15 PM
Okay, if we're limited to guys we already own, how would you make things better? My list:

1. David Weathers needs to be DLed. This whole "my arm lost all feeling, but now it's back and I feel fine I just suck now" thing makes me nervous. And my surprise choice to replace him would be:

2. Carlos Guevara. Okay, he might just last once around the league before the hitters start to figure out his screwball, but once around the league sounds pretty good to me right now. And it's not like major league hitters have seen too many more scroogies than minor league ones have. It's pretty much a lost art.

3. Kent Mercker will come around, I think. Call it instinct or blind optimism.

4. Matt Belisle should be stretched out with an eye toward Joe Mays's job eventually at best, or long relief at worst.

5. Estaban Yan as I said needs to go to Soto's Changeup Academy. I wonder if he's ever had quality coaching from someone who spoke fluent Spanish. I think it would be worth a try.

6. Ryan Wagner needs to go to Chattanooga and start from scratch without worrying about being one step from the majors. I'd like to see him try "pitching backwards": starting guys out with the slider, then using the fastball as a "surprise" pitch. His slider is so filthy I think he can throw it high and have it drop down into the zone. I'd promote Coutlangus to Louisville to replace him.

Anyone have better ideas, or ideas for guys I haven't mentioned?

crazybob60
07-05-2006, 01:34 AM
You have to have bullpen guys so I cant see them DFA'ing anymore guys IMO. Something has to change including demoting Coffey to set up guy, wonder how much Williamson or Dempster would cost the Reds?

I read this on cbs.sportsline just tonight when checking my fantasy line...

According to the Chicago Sun-Times, Scott Williamson is likely to be traded before the July 31 non-waiver deadline. He is viewed in the front office as general manager Jim Hendry's most alluring bargaining chip. Teams with bullpen problems have sought Williamson in trade since last November, and Hendry is ready to unload him for a major-league-ready player.
(Updated 07/03/2006).

jimbo
07-05-2006, 01:56 AM
Man, I'm not excited about either one of these guys. Williamson is an injury waiting to happen and he still has a control problem. I watched Dumpster the other day when he got bombed in the 9th and it was ugly. I can't see how these two would be much of an upgrade and I certainly do not want to give up much for them.

crazybob60
07-05-2006, 05:49 AM
I forgot to comment about Williamson but I think it might be great to pick him back up, heck he was doing ok when we traded him away the first time and although he might be a huge injury risk, I think it would upgrade the bullpen tremendously. The only problem might be in acquiring him, would the Cubies want to trade 'in-division'????

GAC
07-05-2006, 08:38 AM
The Phillies and Mets took White and Williams . . .

Then again, we picked up Mays and Yan.

All signs of how desperate everyone is for pitching.

Bingo!

Castellini/Krivsky were able to DFA guys like Williams and Hammond because they at least, at a minimum, had other options to try. No - they weren't the best of options; but at this early stage of the season there isn't much available from other teams (except giving their DFAs a chance with crossed fingers).

When you see teams quickly picking up our DFAs, then what does that tell you about the market/availability of even decent arms? ;)

Simply dumping Weathers, Mercker, or whoever - even as bad as they have been - does not solve the problem if .... 1) you have no one to slide in there, and 2) their replacement does the same, or even worse.

And IMO, after reading over this thread, and some of the pitching options suggested, we wouldn't be moving in the right direction to fixing this BP problem - just compounding it.

This may very well be a situation that can't be fixed until after the season. And IMO, that is not necessarily a bad thing. I don't want this FO panicking (like so many of the fans), and doing something stupid (divesting of talent or selling off) just to take a stab at this year.

The trading deadline is the next viable option obviously; but with some of the player trade suggestions I've seen offered up on here, in order to get a quality arm(s), most teams would laugh (as I am).

It takes quality, in most cases, to get quality. Are we willing to risk that?.... or possibly wait till the off-season and acquire/sign a few guys, while not losing anything?