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Spitball
07-02-2006, 09:03 PM
Flash Gordon might be the best bet for the Reds to improve there bullpen. He has been very effective as the Phillies' closer and is third in the NL with 21 saves and a 2.12 ERA. The Phillies are out of it so maybe they'd be interested in moving him and his three year $18 million dollar contract.

How about Chris Denorfia, Ryan Wagner, and Travis Chick for Gordon and Rheal Cormier.

The trade adds depth to the pen as Cormier has been pretty effective this season but is about a hundred years old and can't be in the Phillies future plans.

toledodan
07-02-2006, 09:15 PM
gordon as closer would be a great idea. it would allow us to move coffey to the setup role which i believe he would be better at. i just wonder how much it would cost the reds to pull it off. the reds and phills have pulled off alot of trades together over the last few seasons.

pedro
07-02-2006, 09:18 PM
Flash Gordon might be the best bet for the Reds to improve there bullpen. He has been very effective as the Phillies' closer and is third in the NL with 21 saves and a 2.12 ERA. The Phillies are out of it so maybe they'd be interested in moving him and his three year $18 million dollar contract.

How about Chris Denorfia, Ryan Wagner, and Travis Chick for Gordon and Rheal Cormier.

The trade adds depth to the pen as Cormier has been pretty effective this season but is about a hundred years old and can't be in the Phillies future plans.

Gordon will be more expensive than that IMO.

Jpup
07-02-2006, 09:24 PM
Gordon will be more expensive than that IMO.

It will take, at least, Austin Kearns to get Gordon.

Phhhl
07-02-2006, 09:25 PM
That would be chancey. Gordon is a heck of a pitcher, but he's 38 and the Reds could really end up hating life for the next two years by taking that on. Since Philly was confident enough to lock him up that long, I would guess that they are prepared to ride out that contract. They have a very good nucleus of young players in Howard, Rowan, Rollins, Utley and Burrell. It's not like they have to rebuild from the ground up, so they probably feel like they can reload in the offseason and make another run next year with Gordon anchoring their pen. Now, if they took some of the risk factor away by paying some of that contract, it may be worth looking at. But, they are more likely to look for a better option than Denorfia with Abreu's future with that team up in the air.

Substitute Kearns for Denorfia and ask Philly to foot the bill for about half of what Gordon is owed and we may be in the ballpark. Would hate to give up on Chick, though.

Spitball
07-02-2006, 09:28 PM
Gordon will be more expensive than that IMO.

Maybe, but the guy is almost 39 years old and making lots of money. Also, Denorfia gives them the option of moving Abreu or Burrell. Wagner and Chick have enough potential to nudge the trade.

What do you think it would take to land Flash and Rheal?

schroomytunes
07-02-2006, 09:29 PM
we dont have enough to get gordon! there are cheaper alternatives. I like borowski(fla) wickman(cle) and hawkins(bal) these guys can be had for a lot less than Gordon.

pedro
07-02-2006, 09:33 PM
Maybe, but the guy is almost 39 years old and making lots of money. Also, Denorfia gives them the option of moving Abreu or Burrell. Wagner and Chick have enough potential to nudge the trade.

What do you think it would take to land Flash and Rheal?

Hard to say at this point. Really depends on the market.

M2
07-02-2006, 10:18 PM
The Phillies have some desperate pitching needs. They might hop all over guys like Dumatrait and Shafer.

Though I'd like the Reds to find a way to lose Milton in a deal like this.

Reds4Life
07-02-2006, 11:43 PM
$6 million bucks a year for bullpen help ain't cheap, especially to be giving up talent of actual value.

Krusty
07-03-2006, 09:46 AM
Didn't the Phillies give him a three-year deal? If so the price will be high in both prospects and money considering he is 38 years old.

Here is another name to consider...RHP Joe Borowski of the Florida Marlins.

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=fla&playerID=111244

lollipopcurve
07-03-2006, 10:05 AM
Here is another name to consider...RHP Joe Borowski of the Florida Marlins.

The PTBNL for Cody Ross is still unnamed, maybe a low-cal sweetener can be added to get Borowski.

Stewie
07-03-2006, 10:50 AM
Flash Gordon might be the best bet for the Reds to improve there bullpen. He has been very effective as the Phillies' closer and is third in the NL with 21 saves and a 2.12 ERA. The Phillies are out of it so maybe they'd be interested in moving him and his three year $18 million dollar contract.

How about Chris Denorfia, Ryan Wagner, and Travis Chick for Gordon and Rheal Cormier.

The trade adds depth to the pen as Cormier has been pretty effective this season but is about a hundred years old and can't be in the Phillies future plans.

Sadly, I doubt the Phillies truly believe they are out of it. Knowing the Phillies, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they went out and acquired some veteran pitching help. Based on all the past mid-season moves during the Ed Wade regime, and the recent "addition" (if you want to call it that) of Rick White makes me think that they won't perceive themselves as sellers at the deadline. Personally, I would love to see them become sellers and move guys like Gordon, Cormier, Rhodes, Dellucci, either Abreu or Burrell (if the deal is right, obviously), etc. It'll be a shame, too, since they could most likely get a good return for at least Gordon and Cormier if they play things right (which they more then likely wouldn't do, anyways). The Reds do seem like a good fit for at least one of them, as they have some attractive pieces that could be worked into a deal. Not so sure about Denorfia, though. Based on his numbers and what I have read about him, I don't know what he does that the Phillies can't already get in-house from Shane Victorino.

Edskin
07-03-2006, 10:59 AM
Not to derail the thread, but I'm still not sure why we aren't targeting Jamie Moyer..........assuming of course we're taking a "go for it" philosophy.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2006, 12:42 PM
The Phillies have some desperate pitching needs. They might hop all over guys like Dumatrait and Shafer.

Though I'd like the Reds to find a way to lose Milton in a deal like this.


Milton's going nowhere.

But I absolutely believe that your first point is correct. And yes, Gordon would be an outstanding target.

So would Paul Byrd (provided the Indians kicked in a little payroll).

Both pitchers, I guarantee, could be had for nothing but minor league "talent" from the Reds' system. That's like buying two X-Boxes at thrift store prices.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2006, 12:43 PM
Sadly, I doubt the Phillies truly believe they are out of it. Knowing the Phillies, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they went out and acquired some veteran pitching help. Based on all the past mid-season moves during the Ed Wade regime, and the recent "addition" (if you want to call it that) of Rick White makes me think that they won't perceive themselves as sellers at the deadline. Personally, I would love to see them become sellers and move guys like Gordon, Cormier, Rhodes, Dellucci, either Abreu or Burrell (if the deal is right, obviously), etc. It'll be a shame, too, since they could most likely get a good return for at least Gordon and Cormier if they play things right (which they more then likely wouldn't do, anyways). The Reds do seem like a good fit for at least one of them, as they have some attractive pieces that could be worked into a deal. Not so sure about Denorfia, though. Based on his numbers and what I have read about him, I don't know what he does that the Phillies can't already get in-house from Shane Victorino.

The press seem to think they're done; now whether Wade does is another matter.

M2
07-03-2006, 12:47 PM
Milton's going nowhere.

But I absolutely believe that your first point is correct. And yes, Gordon would be an outstanding target.

So would Paul Byrd (provided the Indians kicked in a little payroll).

Both pitchers, I guarantee, could be had for nothing but minor league "talent" from the Reds' system. That's like buying two X-Boxes at thrift store prices.

I'm no fan of Byrd's (IMO he'd be assaulted by LHBs in the GAB), though his season has been on the upswing of late. I really wouldn't want his 2007 contract.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2006, 12:50 PM
I'm no fan of Byrd's (IMO he'd be assaulted by LHBs in the GAB), though his season has been on the upswing of late. I really wouldn't want his 2007 contract.

I'm no huge fan of Byrd's by any means, but when people carp on the fact of losing the major league talent in order find other major league talent, I look to a guy like Byrd, who, because of his salary, would really only cost the Reds minor league sculch in return. So the risk lies in the money it takes to acquire him, not in the talent. And the guy is pretty horse-ish--a steady 6 2/3-7 inning guy on a regular basis.

traderumor
07-03-2006, 12:51 PM
Milton's going nowhere.

But I absolutely believe that your first point is correct. And yes, Gordon would be an outstanding target.

So would Paul Byrd (provided the Indians kicked in a little payroll).

Both pitchers, I guarantee, could be had for nothing but minor league "talent" from the Reds' system. That's like buying two X-Boxes at thrift store prices.I really can't see a deal involving Paul Byrd, who is owed $7.5M next year, being anything we want to touch. The only way I'd do that is if the Indians paid his salary for the rest of this year, and that's going to be too much money changing hands for that to make any sense. I thought about him until I was reminded that the Indians badly overpaid for him. Of course, if he somehow was Milton's replacement, as in we were able to dump Milton and take on Byrd with the same $, I'm not sure I wouldn't think long and hard about that scenario. I probably wouldn't do it, but it would be tempting.

Honestly, I was shocked to see how consistent Byrd's numbers are over the years in various venues. But he would scare the bejeebies out of me start after start with his flyball tendencies in GAB and his salary is a little high for what I think he brings to the table.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2006, 12:53 PM
I really can't see a deal involving Paul Byrd, who is owed $7.5M next year, being anything we want to touch. The only way I'd do that is if the Indians paid his salary for the rest of this year, and that's going to be too much money changing hands for that to make any sense. I thought about him until I was reminded that the Indians badly overpaid for him. Of course, if he somehow was Milton's replacement, as in we were able to dump Milton and take on Byrd with the same $, I'm not sure I wouldn't think long and hard about that scenario. I probably wouldn't do it, but it would be tempting.

Honestly, I was shocked to see how consistent Byrd's numbers are over the years in various venues. But he would scare the bejeebies out of me start after start with his flyball tendencies in GAB and his salary is a little high for what I think he brings to the table.

I'm hoping the days of pissing and moaning about salary for a playoff push are over.

gm
07-03-2006, 12:54 PM
What if the Phillies asked for the Lizard back? Wouldja do Gordon, then?

traderumor
07-03-2006, 12:56 PM
I'm hoping the days of pissing and moaning about salary for a playoff push are over.$7.5 due Byrd in 2007 is my concern. That was why I originally looked him up, thinking he was on a one year deal. But he got two years at $14.5 M out of the Tribe, and that is not going to be easy to deal in the offseason. Byrd is obviously an upgrade over Milton and Mays, but I'm not sure at that price he is worth it. This is still a business, after all.

M2
07-03-2006, 12:57 PM
I'm hoping the days of pissing and moaning about salary for a playoff push are over.

I'm all for taking on salary for a playoff push (e.g. Gordon), but I'm not eager to see the Reds acquiring expensive pitchers I don't much like. If the Indians would do Byrd for Milton and "prospects" then I'd be game, but I REALLY wouldn't want to see the Reds married to Byrd and Milton for the next year and a half.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2006, 01:01 PM
I'm all for taking on salary for a playoff push (e.g. Gordon), but I'm not eager to see the Reds acquiring expensive pitchers I don't much like. If the Indians would do Byrd for Milton and "prospects" then I'd be game, but I REALLY wouldn't want to see the Reds married to Byrd and Milton for the next year and a half.

I'm guessing Byrd in the NL again could put up numbers similar to his post-KC years. Upper 3s ERA, .730ish OPSA. In short, Harang numbers without the Ks.

Byrd is not electric, but to say Byrd is infinitely better than Milton and Mays is an understatement. It's really unfair to class them together.

M2
07-03-2006, 01:01 PM
What if the Phillies asked for the Lizard back? Wouldja do Gordon, then?

The only problem with trading the Lizard for a reliever is the team is already thin in the rotation. If the Reds lose his innings that could screw the 2006 pooch. Now, if someone wanted Ramirez for a starter upgrade, my answer would be hell yes.

M2
07-03-2006, 01:06 PM
I'm guessing Byrd in the NL again could put up numbers similar to his post-KC years. Upper 3s ERA, .730ish OPSA. In short, Harang numbers without the Ks.

Byrd is not electric, but to say Byrd is infinitely better than Milton and Mays is an understatement. It's really unfair to class them together.

Byrd posted an .833 OPS against LHBs from 2003-2005. This year it's at .916. He's also a got fairly strong flyball tilt. He gets by thanks to being so tough on RHBs, but I'd expect him to get Miltoned a lot with the Reds and perform nowhere near as well as Harang.

PuffyPig
07-03-2006, 01:08 PM
$7.5 due Byrd in 2007 is my concern. That was why I originally looked him up, thinking he was on a one year deal. But he got two years at $14.5 M out of the Tribe, and that is not going to be easy to deal in the offseason. Byrd is obviously an upgrade over Milton and Mays, but I'm not sure at that price he is worth it. This is still a business, after all.

Byrd is pitching well this season, certainly as good as he was previously with KC. he was worth $14.5M last offseason, there's no reason he's not worth it now. That fact that he's a good pitcher and signed next season at market rates probably makes him more marketable to the right team.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2006, 01:11 PM
Byrd posted an .833 OPS against LHBs from 2003-2005. This year it's at .916. He's also a got fairly strong flyball tilt. He gets by thanks to being so tough on RHBs, but I'd expect him to get Miltoned a lot with the Reds and perform nowhere near as well as Harang.

Yeah, that's the knock I heard against Arroyo, too.

NL offensive talent sucks logs.

M2
07-03-2006, 01:13 PM
Yeah, that's the knock I heard against Arroyo, too.

NL offensive talent sucks logs.

I didn't have that knock on Arroyo. I have it big time on Byrd.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2006, 01:18 PM
I didn't have that knock on Arroyo. I have it big time on Byrd.

Neither did I, but the stats said Arroyo got mashed by lefties.

As far as Byrd is concerned, I look at his OPSA, not his OPSA against lefties exclusively. Moving from the second toughest division in baseball to one of the easiest (if not the easiest division--the East is still tougher offensively than this division) in baseball will certainly have a cheering effect on his overall numbers.

Plus, he's a smart pitcher.

But, really, my take on this isn't to falsely compare the guy to Milton or Harang, but rather to get a guy who can genuinely help without surrendering MLB talent to do it.

The money crap someone else can worry about. I don't care, honestly. I just want to win.

M2
07-03-2006, 01:22 PM
But, really, my take on this isn't to falsely compare the guy to Milton or Harang, but rather to get a guy who can genuinely help without surrendering MLB talent to do it.

The money crap someone else can worry about. I don't care, honestly. I just want to win.

I hear you, though I'm fairly certain Byrd won't help as much as you'd want (which is why I find his cost an issue).

Yet I'm with you in being all for the Reds cracking open a vault to get some prime stuff.

gm
07-03-2006, 01:46 PM
The only problem with trading the Lizard for a reliever is the team is already thin in the rotation. If the Reds lose his innings that could screw the 2006 pooch. Now, if someone wanted Ramirez for a starter upgrade, my answer would be hell yes.

Yeah, robbing Peter to pay Paul...who would've ever thought the Red's bullpen would be "thinner" than the rotation?

Maybe the Phil's don't want EZ back, but maybe they do. The Reds need 4 decent starters to reach the playoffs, but if they get there, the veteran closer will be more valuable than any 3rd-4th starter

Isn't it nice to have to hypothetically make these tough choices, for the first time in 5 years?

Jpup
07-03-2006, 02:07 PM
The press seem to think they're done; now whether Wade does is another matter.

Pat Gillick is the Phillies GM.:p:

Krusty
07-03-2006, 02:24 PM
I would offer LHP Phil Dumtrait for Gordon.

Spitball
07-03-2006, 02:53 PM
I would offer LHP Phil Dumtrait for Gordon.

I don't think Dumtrait alone would be enough considering the need for quality relief throughout baseball. I look at the Thome trade and Gillick's Toronto days and assume he will try to fill a need and rebuild the Phillies' farm system. So, I would think Brandon Claussen could be combined with Dumtrait and perhaps Ray Olmedo to get Gordon. I like to get Cormier thrown in to add depth, but Gillick would probably place too much value on this season's production and ignore his age.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2006, 10:04 PM
Pat Gillick is the Phillies GM.:p:

Shows you how much I pay attention to this franchise.

CTA513
07-03-2006, 10:09 PM
Gordon would help out the bullpen, but I dont think the Phillies would get rid of him cheap unless they wanted to dump his salary.

Krusty
07-04-2006, 10:51 AM
I don't think Dumtrait alone would be enough considering the need for quality relief throughout baseball. I look at the Thome trade and Gillick's Toronto days and assume he will try to fill a need and rebuild the Phillies' farm system. So, I would think Brandon Claussen could be combined with Dumtrait and perhaps Ray Olmedo to get Gordon. I like to get Cormier thrown in to add depth, but Gillick would probably place too much value on this season's production and ignore his age.

Time to think slobber-knocker:

Reds trade LHP Claussen, LHP Dumtrait, RHP Chick, OF Denorifa, infielder Olmedo and catcher LaRue for RHP Myers, LHP Cormier and RHP Gordon.

Spitball
07-04-2006, 11:47 AM
Time to think slobber-knocker:

Reds trade LHP Claussen, LHP Dumtrait, RHP Chick, OF Denorifa, infielder Olmedo and catcher LaRue for RHP Myers, LHP Cormier and RHP Gordon.

I'm all for doing that one yesterday. I'd overpay right now because this bullpen is the Achilles heal and it is killing any chance to stay in the race.

Spitball
07-04-2006, 11:50 AM
I'm all for doing that one yesterday. I'd overpay right now because this bullpen is the Achilles heal and it is killing any chance to stay in the race.

Wait, I don't want Myers. I'd do the package w/o myers and take unhappy Ryan Franklin.

Krusty
07-04-2006, 01:12 PM
Wait, I don't want Myers. I'd do the package w/o myers and take unhappy Ryan Franklin.

Myers would upgrade the bullpen. Question is will the Phillies actually be forced to trade him?

I wouldn't break the bank for Gordon and Cormier.

buckeyenut
07-04-2006, 03:50 PM
Time to think slobber-knocker:

Reds trade LHP Claussen, LHP Dumtrait, RHP Chick, OF Denorifa, infielder Olmedo and catcher LaRue for RHP Myers, LHP Cormier and RHP Gordon.

As much as I like lots of guys we give up in that move, I do that deal in a heartbeat. That upgrades your rotation AND your pen significantly.