PDA

View Full Version : What to do with LaRue



redsandrails
07-03-2006, 04:24 PM
The situation involving LaRue is extremely frustrating... The fact that Ross was benched after hitting two homers yesterday is baffling. Ross is showing no signs of cooling off and he would probably play better if he had a starting job. His numbers would look better overall even if his AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS dropped. I mean he would have just as much value or more value if he had 350 or 400 AB's... hit 30 some HR, batted .275 and maybe 80 RBI then what he is pacing right now. My gut feeling is with a starting job he would do even better and feel more comfortable with his role on the team and maintain his pace. Management is trying to shine LaRue up for a trade and it's costing us games. I mean come on... if he heats up he'll be batting what? .215? I mean he will still get practically no value and theres no point in costing us games by playing him as much/more than Ross. What we should do is play him part-time and let some desperate team needing a C (if there is a injury or something) claim him off waivers or maybe even trade for him if he slips through (probably will).

LaRue's value is so low, however, we are probably stuck with him unless we eat his salary. His career averages suggest he is a mediocre catcher and this year is probably a fluke. Nevertheless, we should play Ross everyday to increase Ross's value AND help us win games more. Then at season's end or even at the deadline we can deal Ross to someone and net some real return. If Ross catches around 5/6's of the games for the next month he would probably have stats around .285, 15, 50 in about 175 at bats or so and maybe even better. That could probably net some excellent relief pitching or even a more than serviceable starting pitcher if a couple more pieces are added.

savafan
07-03-2006, 04:47 PM
Ross should be the Reds starting catcher until he proves that he shouldn't be. Enuff said.

redsfanmia
07-03-2006, 04:56 PM
Three letters DFA

Reds4Life
07-03-2006, 05:02 PM
Three letters DFA

He makes too much $$$$$ to DFA him, if you have to trade him for nothing or eat a portion of the salary, then do it.

KronoRed
07-03-2006, 05:24 PM
He won't get hot starting 2 times a week, time to trade him for the best offer

flyer85
07-03-2006, 05:26 PM
He won't get hot starting 2 times a week, time to trade him for the best offerthe market for Larue, I would say, is zero.

Redmachine2003
07-03-2006, 05:27 PM
isn't nice to get rid of the three headed monster in the out feild and have another three headed monster at catcher the only difference is only one of them seems able to hit the ball. Ross should be starting 3/4 of the games.

Patrick Bateman
07-03-2006, 05:43 PM
Three letters DFA

I'm sorry but that makes no sense.

You have to figure that at the very worst LaRue is a great back-up catcher. DFA'ing him means you likely eat his salary and he's gone.

I have no problem dealing LaRue if you can get out of the contract and get something of value for him and give Ross starting at-bats until he proves he does not deserve them.

Joseph
07-03-2006, 06:00 PM
Start him. I loathe David Ross. :)

IslandRed
07-03-2006, 06:00 PM
I agree, AK. Larue's probably untradeable at full salary, but someone might take him if we picked up some of the money. Better than paying it all and getting nothing.

Anyway, Jason's poor hitting so far this year is, to use an economic term, a sunk cost. If they think he'll hit acceptably the rest of the year, then there's no reason to toss him overboard. Myself, I'm not sure what we'll get. His career suggests he's an average to above-average hitter for a catcher, but he's on the wrong side of 30 and catchers sometimes hit the wall in a hurry.

SteelSD
07-03-2006, 06:51 PM
Jason Larue 2006: 106 AB, .179 BA/.285 OBP/.311 SLG

David Ross 2006: 110 AB, .318 BA/.395 OBP/.709 SLG

David Ross 2004: 165 AB, .170 BA/.253 OBP/.291 SLG

What's interesting to me is that history shows us time and time again that 100-odd AB from players at their best or worst really doesn't represent who those players actually are. Just as David Ross circa 2004 or 2006 isn't the real David Ross, Jason Larue circa 2006 isn't the real Jason Larue.

And yet, here we are after 100-odd AB wanting to hand nearly all the catching starts to a guy who's never demonstrated anything over the long haul and we want to dump the guy with a history of performance for nothing. Heard the same thing this past offseason due to Valentin's 2005 small sample size overachievement. Wasn't a good idea then and it's not a good idea now.

pedro
07-03-2006, 07:25 PM
Three letters DFA

Three letters WHY?

RANDY IN INDY
07-03-2006, 07:25 PM
Play the hot hand while it's hot.

pedro
07-03-2006, 07:26 PM
Play the hot hand while it's hot.

I agree with that.

Jpup
07-03-2006, 07:43 PM
Jason Larue 2006: 106 AB, .179 BA/.285 OBP/.311 SLG

David Ross 2006: 110 AB, .318 BA/.395 OBP/.709 SLG

David Ross 2004: 165 AB, .170 BA/.253 OBP/.291 SLG

What's interesting to me is that history shows us time and time again that 100-odd AB from players at their best or worst really doesn't represent who those players actually are. Just as David Ross circa 2004 or 2006 isn't the real David Ross, Jason Larue circa 2006 isn't the real Jason Larue.

And yet, here we are after 100-odd AB wanting to hand nearly all the catching starts to a guy who's never demonstrated anything over the long haul and we want to dump the guy with a history of performance for nothing. Heard the same thing this past offseason due to Valentin's 2005 small sample size overachievement. Wasn't a good idea then and it's not a good idea now.

I think that you and I have been the only 2 saying that. I still agree.

Patrick Bateman
07-03-2006, 07:49 PM
I think that you and I have been the only 2 saying that. I still agree.

I have said that all along. Ross has been fabulously good this year, and I say ride him while he's hot. However, I wouldn't start dumping guys like LaRue who has been an above average catcher for 5 years because of 150 great at-bats.

Because if you do that, and Ross falters (which is very possible) you have gotten rid of a great catcher needlessly. I would only deal LaRue if you can get some good value for him (ie. some relief help).

Jpup
07-03-2006, 07:56 PM
I have said that all along. Ross has been fabulously good this year, and I say ride him while he's hot. However, I wouldn't start dumping guys like LaRue who has been an above average catcher for 5 years because of 150 great at-bats.

Because if you do that, and Ross falters (which is very possible) you have gotten rid of a great catcher needlessly. I would only deal LaRue if you can get some good value for him (ie. some relief help).

I actually think that there is a market for him to a team like LAA.

Marc D
07-03-2006, 08:00 PM
I'd deal LaRue from the standpoint of how much money we have tied up in a catcher. Forget Ross's streak or LaRue's slump.

I'd rather have a two man platoon of all glove/no hit guys making the minimum and spend LaRue's 9M on pitching. Now if Ross can be one of those guys and hit a little, all the better. If he keeps this pace up great, if he's just an average hitting catcher over the long haul so be it.

We still have plenty of offense if the C turns into a blackhole. We all see daily what happens when 7/12 of your pitching staff is a black hole.

Jpup
07-03-2006, 08:04 PM
I'd deal LaRue from the standpoint of how much money we have tied up in a catcher. Forget Ross's streak or LaRue's slump.

I'd rather have a two man platoon of all glove/no hit guys making the minimum and spend LaRue's 9M on pitching. Now if Ross can be one of those guys and hit a little, all the better. If he keeps this pace up great, if he's just an average hitting catcher over the long haul so be it.

We still have plenty of offense if the C turns into a blackhole. We all see daily what happens when 7/12 of your pitching staff is a black hole.

You mean 10 out of 12?

PuffyPig
07-03-2006, 08:23 PM
If Ross is so great, why don't we trade him for the relief help we so desparately need?

There's a reasonable chance that larue will outhit Ross the rest of the year. That's based on a lifetime of stats.

Look what Valentin did last year for us, and how he's tumbled back to reality this year.

Ross has been great, to be sure, and we should ride him while we can. But don'r be surprised if he tumbles, and tumbles fast. And if Larue is DFAed, where are we then.

And why does everyone simply say DFA? Do they even know what it means? Because for a player like Larue, if we can't trade him (with a ticking gun to our head), it means that we eat about $7M of salary and watch him play above average for some other team (maybe the Cards) while we play his salary.

DFA is not a solution. You use it when you know you are going to likely release a player, as you've already shown your hand.

flyer85
07-03-2006, 08:33 PM
the answer at the moment is nothing

Unassisted
07-03-2006, 08:53 PM
Keep LaRue and trade the guy who's keeping him from even getting the playing time of a backup... Valentin.

Ron Madden
07-03-2006, 08:56 PM
Keep LaRue and trade the guy who's keeping him from even getting the playing time of a backup... Valentin.

I'll second that motion.

RFS62
07-03-2006, 08:57 PM
Play the hot hand while it's hot.



Exactly.

KronoRed
07-03-2006, 08:58 PM
Keep LaRue and trade the guy who's keeping him from even getting the playing time of a backup... Valentin.
Agreed

buckeyenut
07-03-2006, 09:54 PM
There is a reason our catchers were so good last year and Ross is so good this year. He doesn't have to do it every day.

Catching is a grueling position. If you catch 140 games a year, you are going to wear down and it is going to impact your numbers. Having two good catchers is a luxury most teams do not have. And LaRue is just in a slump, he will be back.

redsandrails
07-03-2006, 10:19 PM
IMO, most players struggle more without a starting job; while they might show some signs of brilliance (Ross 06', Valentin 05') struggles are only natural. The real player is at worst a cross between the career norms and the good stats but probably closer to the better stats. Lots of players do worse without the security of a starting job so I think Valentin is a serviceable player. Many catchers in particular started out in roles like this a blossomed into starters. Phil Nevin, Craig Wilson, Paul Loduca and Todd Hundley (OPS over .900 in 1997, 112 RBI's and 41 HR) come to mind. So in this case, Ross would probably keep up pretty decent numbers, at least finish with 25 HR I'd say if he player more regularly and Valentin and LaRue would bounce back. Keep in mind lots of Valentin's AB's and PH's.

RedlegJake
07-04-2006, 09:47 AM
I think you trade any one of them if a decent offer comes along and let the market make the decision for you. Secondly, I'd dangle Ross for bigger returns just because he is hot right now, I'd offer LaRue for a lesser return IF the other club pays his contract but I'd push his career numbers as his norm and ask for more if the Reds have to pay part of his dollars. Valentin isn't going to bring much because he is a backup where ever he goes and backups bring low returns anyway (career backups like Javier anyway - he isn't some kid in a backup role blocked by a star). I douby Javy brings a reliever of any worth, even a prospect. LaRue might bring a prospect worth having or a mediocre ML reliever but I doubt Ross would bring much more - GMs will play the numbers game, too and say that Ross is just hot temporarily but will flip on LaRue and ignore his career stats and parlay based on his '06 numbers. Krivsky needs to zero in on tema's that need catching pretty bad to get a decent return for either of them.

Candy Cummings
07-04-2006, 10:06 AM
If Ross is so great, why don't we trade him for the relief help we so desparately need?

There's a reasonable chance that larue will outhit Ross the rest of the year. That's based on a lifetime of stats.

Look what Valentin did last year for us, and how he's tumbled back to reality this year.

Ross has been great, to be sure, and we should ride him while we can. But don'r be surprised if he tumbles, and tumbles fast. And if Larue is DFAed, where are we then.

And why does everyone simply say DFA? Do they even know what it means? Because for a player like Larue, if we can't trade him (with a ticking gun to our head), it means that we eat about $7M of salary and watch him play above average for some other team (maybe the Cards) while we play his salary.

DFA is not a solution. You use it when you know you are going to likely release a player, as you've already shown your hand.

Intersting post, Puffy. You have to play Ross right now. I don't think LaRue has much trade value (this is another situation of trading too late--last year would have been perfect), and I certainly don't think he brings a quality reliever. Young prospect (marginal) at best.

Krusty
07-04-2006, 10:33 AM
Reds will have to eat the majority of his contract at this point in order to move him. But as desperate as the Reds are for bullpen help, Castanelli might be convinced to bite the bullet and do it.

Spitball
07-04-2006, 11:07 AM
I wonder about Cleveland. They have Victor Martinez who can flat out hit but defensively is proving he just doesn't have the arm nor the footwork to be a catcher. There is talk that he needs to be moved to first base or DH where his defense won't hurt the team and where he can play 160 games a year. If that happens, they will need a catcher and LaRue might be the best potential frontline catcher available. Even if they don't move Martinez this season, seems they'd need a catcher like LaRue in games where they play teams that run like division rival White Sox.

Would they be willing to swap Guillermo Mota and his contract for LaRue and his contract? Mota is having another terrible season, but still throws hard so it isn't a physical problem. I understand he has changed his approach since his days in LA and has become a nibbler. I think I'd rather gamble on Mota than have LaRue languishing on the bench.

Spitball
07-05-2006, 08:51 PM
I wonder about Cleveland. They have Victor Martinez who can flat out hit but defensively is proving he just doesn't have the arm nor the footwork to be a catcher. There is talk that he needs to be moved to first base or DH where his defense won't hurt the team and where he can play 160 games a year. If that happens, they will need a catcher and LaRue might be the best potential frontline catcher available. Even if they don't move Martinez this season, seems they'd need a catcher like LaRue in games where they play teams that run like division rival White Sox.

During the Indians-Yankees broadcast, Steve Phillips just speculated that the Indians would like to acquire a catcher who can throw out runners, possibly trade Broussard, and move Victor Martinez to first. Hmmm...Broussard for LaRue???

Jpup
07-05-2006, 08:54 PM
During the Indians-Yankees broadcast, Steve Phillips just speculated that the Indians would like to acquire a catcher who can throw out runners, possibly trade Broussard, and move Victor Martinez to first. Hmmm...Broussard for LaRue???

the Reds need pitching.

reds44
07-05-2006, 08:56 PM
During the Indians-Yankees broadcast, Steve Phillips just speculated that the Indians would like to acquire a catcher who can throw out runners, possibly trade Broussard, and move Victor Martinez to first. Hmmm...Broussard for LaRue???
We don't need another 1st baseman. We have like 5 players who can play 1st (Hatte, Rich, Javy, Dunn, and now Edwin.)

KronoRed
07-05-2006, 08:57 PM
Hmm..I'd like to have Broussard back, move Hat to anyone asking, let Rich be a backup, trade Votto for pitching

Rojo
07-05-2006, 09:48 PM
Heard the same thing this past offseason due to Valentin's 2005 small sample size overachievement. Wasn't a good idea then and it's not a good idea now.

It was a good idea then because of his contract status/age and because it didn't look like we were going to compete.

Not such a great idea now because he has so little value.

Spitball
07-05-2006, 10:24 PM
the Reds need pitching.

Ya' think? I actually had that figured out all by myself, but if the Reds want to get any value for LaRue, they will have to find someone with a need. If the Indians need to trade for a throwing catcher and unload Broussard, then you work something out. That would obviously mean the Reds would need to make another trade, but then you'd be trading to teams needing Broussard or Hatteberg or Votto.

Jpup
07-05-2006, 10:26 PM
Ya' think? I actually had that figured out all by myself, but if the Reds want to get any value for LaRue, they will have to find someone with a need. If the Indians need to trade for a throwing catcher and unload Broussard, then you work something out. That would obviously mean the Reds would need to make another trade, but then you'd be trading to teams needing Broussard or Hatteberg or Votto.

Broussard is not the answer.

Spitball
07-05-2006, 10:43 PM
Broussard is not the answer.

He is hitting .327 with 11 homers, 40 RBI, .367 )BP, and .527 SLG. Assuming the Indians would even be desperate enough to get Martinez from behind the plate, the Reds would have a much more valuable trading chip with Broussard than LaRue. LaRue has very little value unless you find someone needing to improve the defense/throwing at the catcher position. Broussard wouldn't even be considered for LaRue except they would need to move Broussard, according to Steve Phillips, to put Martinez on first. Possibly, the Reds would work a three way with LaRue going to Cleveland, Broussard going to a team needing a first baseman/DH, and the Reds getting pitching. However it is done, LaRue and Broussard are the need and the excess.

4256 Hits
07-05-2006, 11:07 PM
Hmm..I'd like to have Broussard back, move Hat to anyone asking, let Rich be a backup, trade Votto for pitching

One problem is the Broussard has forgotten how to take a walk and he never been a big power guy. He a lot like Casey and is heading to arbitation where is BA will make him expensive.

Krusty
07-06-2006, 09:24 AM
Taken from the Delaware Times:

Catcher Mike Lieberthal was back in the Philliesí clubhouse, having spent a week in Clearwater, Fla., during which he didnít play any rehabilitation games.

Lieberthal had continued discomfort in his strained left hip that kept him sidelined when he was supposed to be playing for the Class A Threshers. According to Lieberthal, the pain when he runs the bases has eased and he gauges himself at "85 percent."

"I ran Sunday, and I felt better than I did (June 27)," Lieberthal said. "Iím hoping to play for (Triple-A) Scranton or (Double-A) Reading this weekend and be back for San Francisco (the Philliesí first series after the All-Star break)."

If Lieberthal does return and plays pain-free in the second half of July, thereís a chance he could find his name among the trade rumors. He is in the final year of his contract, and there are contending teams (the Rockies and Reds, to name two) who might want to give Lieberthal a try if the Phillies are willing to pick up a healthy percentage of the $3.75 million he has remaining on his contract for the second half of the season. "Itís important for me to come back, be healthy and show that I can catch everyday," Lieberthal said. "I obviously want to do well. Iím determined to come back and show how I can play, and that will determine how valuable I can be to another team."


Could the Reds swap LaRue for Lieberthal, knowing that Liberthal would just be a rental but at the same time it allows them to get out of LaRue's contract for 2007?