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View Full Version : Offseason trade to legitamize Reds.



J-Rod
08-19-2002, 04:42 PM
Luis Castillo adn A.J. Burnett

to the

Reds

for

Todd Walker, Bruce Chen, and ml pitcher


Why?

Walker is a great guy and a gutty ballplayer, but this team needs a bonafide lead off OB% guy. Castillo can garner a .400 OBA and collect 200 hits a year, while supplying 100+ runs in front of Boone, Dunn, Griffey, and Kearns.

Burnett adds the legit ACE we need to counter other teams #1's. We had the opportunity to land one (Colon) but failed this year. Burnett is the man. With Gullett, he could be the Cy Young MAN!

Thoughts?

It is a workable deal with some work.

red-in-la
08-19-2002, 04:44 PM
One comment.....why would the FISH do this trade?

J-Rod
08-19-2002, 04:46 PM
Drop Salary.

With some work means, maybe adding some more prospects.

Buckeye33
08-19-2002, 04:50 PM
Burnett is more untouchable than Josh Beckett.

Set your sites on Penny if you want a pitcher from the Fish.

kvance
08-19-2002, 04:50 PM
Basically, you're asking the Marlins to trade their 2 best players for a decent 2nd basemen, a journeyman pitcher, and an unspecified minor leagure. After we do that deal, we should try to work a Castro/Stinnett for Barry Zito deal, then we'll be set.

Reds4Life
08-19-2002, 04:57 PM
Burnett is not going to be traded. Even if he were it would take a hellva lot more than that to get both Castillo and Burnett.

Marlins fans would have the ownerships head on a stick if they made that deal.

westofyou
08-19-2002, 05:02 PM
Drop Salary.

Castillo makes 3.3 this year walker gets a push to 3 next year.

Not to mention Castillo is a FA at seasons end.

TheBurn
08-19-2002, 05:09 PM
Where is ramp when we need him? I'd go for any of the three (Penny, Beckett, Burnett) since Castillo will be the "key" ! :rolleyes:

bucksfan
08-19-2002, 05:13 PM
I don't see why in the world the Marlins would do this deal, even if they did sign Castillo. This is VERY lop-sided in the Reds favor, no matter who you include as that last player.

(better not let ramp see this one :lol: )

J-Rod
08-19-2002, 05:29 PM
It is just a trade idea. Maybe it would take adding a player like Josh Hall, and Rainer Olmendo.

But the Marlins will be looking to drop salary.

IslandRed
08-19-2002, 05:47 PM
As WOY said, Castillo's a free agent after this season. If the Marlins want to drop payroll, they just won't try to sign him. He's a free-agent target, not a trade target.

As for Burnett, he might be arbitration-eligible, I'm not sure if he'd qualify as a "super-two" or not. Even then, put yourself in the Marlins' position and ask yourself, if you're going to trade someone as hot and coveted as Burnett, is that deal the best you could do? Probably not, no matter how many second-tier prospects you throw into it.

MWM
08-19-2002, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by J-Rod
It is just a trade idea. Maybe it would take adding a player like Josh Hall, and Rainer Olmendo.



or Adam Dunn.

Burnett is not set to make real money for a few more years. Adding more average prospects does not make it any more attractive. This is right up there with the Vlad proposals the guy (his name is slipping me) was coming up with here last year. If I were one of the 10 fish fans, I would be rolling on the floor right now. This would be akin to the Brewers asking for Dunn and Kearns for Jose Hernandez and Jamey Wright.

danforsman
08-19-2002, 06:08 PM
Give me a break. This trade is outrageous. I don't care who serves spaghetti to Jeffrey Loria and who is polishing Jeff Torborg's Civic in the parking garage, Burnett and a FA Castillo for anything outside Kearns and #1 prospect is hilarious. So stop the mindless hypothesizing. One of the joys of Reds fandom is that I don't have to be bothered with delusions of granduer...I get to dream up deals for #3/#4 starters and re-tread 5-toolers with the dream that one day Jim Bo will hit the jackpot and we will be back to the Series. And I think that day is on its way...

J-Rod
08-19-2002, 06:30 PM
First, Dunn and Kearns are going no where.

second. It was a trade idea.

Ok, so sign Luis Castillo in the off season, and trade some bodies for Burnett.

What would it take? Outside of Dunn and Kearns, cause they are going no where.

My point is. This team needs an Ace who is a stopper. A guy who makes it very difficult to get swept in a series. A pitcher who can go toe to toe with Schilling or Johnson.

Colon was available, and he was not going to cost us Kearns or Dunn, so think about that. Bowden could not get the funds for the green light to trade for Colon.

So, what pitcher besides Burnett is out there that is a young stud, and where a deal is attainable.

Prior? Nope.
Pinerio? Nope.
Oswalt? Nope.


Who?

Besides Colon, and he probably will not be avilable in the offseason. What a waste for the Expos to get him. Better than the Cards or Astros I guess but they could not match up well with Cleveland anyway.

So, whos out there? Or do you want Bowden to aquire more Villiones?

ramp101
08-19-2002, 06:32 PM
hey guys

castillo is a free agent so you will have your chance to sign him

the only marlins pitcher that is a stud that might be traded is brad penny...aj and beckett are untouchable

the salary we are dropping will be when charles johnson $6mil and preston wilson 3yr/$26mil get traded this offseason, but thanks fr looking out for us

ps don gullett wouldnt make aj burnett a cy young winner, he may win it next year on his own;)

burnett is going nowhere unless dunn is involved....i honestly dont think kearns would do it by himself

Chip R
08-19-2002, 06:39 PM
At first glance you wonder why the Fish would even consider a trade like that. But if you consider who their owner is, it doesn't become that much of a stretch. But Loria usually gets a little more value than what we'd be proposing. Plus the guys he trades off usually are in for a big pay day.

ramp101
08-19-2002, 06:40 PM
Luis Castillo and A.J. Burnett

to the

Reds

for

Todd Walker, Bruce Chen, and ml pitcher


thats like the marlins offering andy fox,eric owens and julian tavarez for austin kearns and brandon larson(healthy)

danforsman
08-19-2002, 06:54 PM
I pray the Marlins are contracted. I am so sick and tired of hearing about their crap....or is it carp? Anywho, you can have your damn AJ, Beckett, Andy Fox, 'Juan Gone', and Braden "don't call me Brandon" Pooper. While one corner of a single ventricle of my heart feels bad for 'Marlins fans' for the way Huizenga and Co. pumped and dumped the organization to buy a title, I hate the city of Miami. You deserve Ricky Williams, Jeff Loria, and Rod Strickland. Doesn't Dennis Rodman still live there? That place doesn't deserve a real baseball team, and I feel sorry for the talented guys who are being a) shuffled around like Sorry pieces and b) being forced to sweat their asses off in front of 300 blue-haired carpetbaggers. Please, Bud, if nothing else, promise me that the god-awful state of Florida will not have a baseball team when spring rolls around.

J-Rod
08-19-2002, 07:32 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luis Castillo and A.J. Burnett

to the

Reds

for

Todd Walker, Bruce Chen, and ml pitcher

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



thats like the marlins offering andy fox,eric owens and julian tavarez for austin kearns and brandon larson(healthy)



Listen, don't be so dense. The trade was an idea.

Before the season? Did you think the Expos could have gotton Colon for anyone not named Vladamir Guerrero or Jose Vidro?
Probably so but they did.

So, it always isn't going to take super stars on your roster to make a trade.

Brandon Phillips is a helk of a player though....

IslandRed
08-19-2002, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by J-Rod
My point is. This team needs an Ace who is a stopper. A guy who makes it very difficult to get swept in a series. A pitcher who can go toe to toe with Schilling or Johnson.


No arguing about that.

What we're doing the :rolleyes: about is the notion that we can just "trade some bodies for Burnett." Burnett is an ace, he's young, and he's inexpensive -- in short, the type of pitcher all 30 teams want and nearly all can afford, at least until he's eligible for arbitration.

If the Marlins put out the word, every team will have offers on the table, and they'll be talking about premium guys. The Reds can't just put *an* offer on the table, it needs to be the *best* offer. If I was the Marlins' GM talking about Burnett, I'm not interested in a package of average veterans and second-tier prospects. I've got plenty of those. Put real value on the table or don't bother calling back.

red-in-la
08-19-2002, 08:00 PM
If the players strike and end the season on the 30th, WILL Castillo be a free agent? I am not so sure. Seems to me that he would lack the service time to qualify.

ramp101
08-19-2002, 08:36 PM
AJ Burnett was placed on the 15 day dl with sore elbow and since our season is over there is no need to rush him back...i guess you dont want him anymore

and danforsman-what do u have against miami bro, take a deep breathe and count to 3...

CincyFlip
08-19-2002, 08:48 PM
aj is untouchable like others have said...


our best deal would be something like this:


walker, howington, pena, larson


for

castillo, and penny

ramp101
08-19-2002, 08:49 PM
yea something like that would probably do


I pray the Marlins are contracted. I am so sick and tired of hearing about their crap....or is it carp? Anywho, you can have your damn AJ, Beckett, Andy Fox, 'Juan Gone', and Braden "don't call me Brandon" Pooper. While one corner of a single ventricle of my heart feels bad for 'Marlins fans' for the way Huizenga and Co. pumped and dumped the organization to buy a title, I hate the city of Miami.


first off the marlins play in ft.lauderdale and not miami...why are you so against miami?finally the marlins didnt buy their championship.....$55mil for a world series team isnt like the yankees.....and doesnt every team who has won recently bought their WS? and dont give me this crap about "you can have aj and josh" you know you would want them in a heartbeat.....as for andy fox, he is untouchable:lol:

anyway thats my rant for the day :rant:

LvJ
08-19-2002, 09:46 PM
He probally dislikes it, because they have so much talent, for such a young team, they already have a WC Title, and the fans continue to show them no support. They get around 5 fans a night, its pitiful.

ramp101
08-19-2002, 09:59 PM
yea but you can understand why our attendance is so lousy....cant u?

IslandRed
08-19-2002, 10:57 PM
[Edited -- hadn't seen the Burnett-on-DL topic on the other thread]

ramp101
08-19-2002, 11:06 PM
i know you arent ratting on me

man i thought he was indestructable

we will have to see what happens either in his next start or next year

he was having some year though

letsgojunior
08-19-2002, 11:14 PM
ramp why was burnett placed on the DL? I just watched him pitch a gem yesterday.

IslandRed
08-19-2002, 11:22 PM
Sorry, ramp. I was moving my response to the other thread where you guys were talking about Burnett, and here you were replying on this one. :D

michael
08-19-2002, 11:30 PM
Hmm, say we get Castillo by some freak accident of nature.

And given Boone's "let's tinker with the lineups" nature.

Does anyone really think Castillo would bat leadoff every game?:D

ramp101
08-19-2002, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by letsgojunior
ramp why was burnett placed on the DL? I just watched him pitch a gem yesterday.

"an elbow bruise, X-rays indicated an acute bone bruise in Burnett's pitching elbow. The Marlins were awaiting further test results, and with the team out of the playoff race, he won't be rushed back into the rotation.

Gus
08-20-2002, 02:54 AM
Ramp I think your Andy Fox and a bag of marbles analogy needs to come into play with this trade scenario :D The reason the Expos were able to get Colon over others was due to having one of the highest rated minor league prospects in Phillips, who do we have to lay out there to truly land a #1. As we've said before without dangling Dunn or Kearns it would take one hell of a package (and a bag of marbles)

kvance
08-20-2002, 09:50 AM
Why does it seem like 75 % or more of the trade deals discussed on this board involve the Florida Marlins. A good ten or more of their players have, at one time this season, reportedly been on their way to Cincinnati. This has made no sense to me at all. A Fla Marlins fan has even had to become a regular poster here to keep up with/refute all the latest trade rumours. There are more leadoff hitters out there than Castillo, and there are more starting pitchers than Burnett, Penny, and Beckett.

kvance
08-20-2002, 09:51 AM
Why does it seem like 75 % or more of the trade deals discussed on this board involve the Florida Marlins. A good ten or more of their players have, at one time this season, reportedly been on their way to Cincinnati. This has made no sense to me at all. A Fla Marlins fan has even had to become a regular poster here to keep up with/refute all the latest trade rumours. To my knowledge, no trade involving the reds and marlins (other than the Dempster deal, and the possiblity of throwing Cliff Floyd in that deal) has been discussed in the media.

ramp101
08-20-2002, 09:56 AM
so if the media doesnt say anything, then there is no chance?

the reason why alot of people like the marlins are because they are youn,cheap, and all have HUGE upsides

and besides ichiro, what lead off hitter would u want besides castillo?

also, when was cliff floyd ever mentioned to go to cincy?

OldXOhio
08-20-2002, 11:10 AM
soriano

ramp101
08-20-2002, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by OldXOhio
soriano

soriano may be batting leadoff but on most teams he would be like a young arod batting 3rd,4th or 5th

i bet when he ages a couple of years, the sb's will go down like arod's did

OldXOhio
08-20-2002, 11:23 AM
I don't know if I agree w/ you on that one Ramp just because there seems to be so few stellar leadoff men in all of baseball. Outside of the Floridas, Bostons and Seattles of the game, I would think Soriano would be a leadoff man for most teams. He certainly would be in Cincy.

ramp101
08-20-2002, 11:24 AM
makes no sense...he has 35-50hr potential...he will become arod jr and the steals will go down in a couple of years

J-Rod
08-20-2002, 11:30 AM
I understand it will not just take "bodies" or "fringe" players.

I thought it would take Todd Walker because we were getting there second baseman in return...but, since Castillo is a Free Agent at the end of the year. We can just make a bid for him.

If we sign Castillo, and Rolen as Free Agents, which I think will be totally possible.

Bowden can then try to aquire Burnett through a trade.

Maybe

Burnett and a player

for

Wily Mo Pena, Brandon Larson, and Josh Hall.

Maybe not this exact deal, but it will not take Dunn or Kearns. Dunn is fixing on signing a LTC with the Reds anyway.

I also hope the Reds can work a deal with Montreal with Colon and his 6 million dollar salary.

1. Castillo-2b
2. Boone-SS
3. Dunn-LF
4. Griffey-CF
5. Kearns-RF
6. Casey-1b
7. Rolen-3b
8. LaRue/Miller-C
9. pitcher

Colon
Burnett
Dessens
Dempster
Mohler (If he resigns)

Graves
Williamson
Riedling
Chen
Hudson
Reitsma


I like this roster.

Jim Bowden may have the tools to bring in this kind of talent this offseason.

:thumbup:

OldXOhio
08-20-2002, 11:31 AM
it seems to make sense in Yankee Stadium. Why doesn't NY bat him second or fifth and make Jeter the leadoff?

danforsman
08-20-2002, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by ramp101
makes no sense...he has 35-50hr potential...he will become arod jr and the steals will go down in a couple of years

Having HR power sure seemed to ruin Rickey Henderson's speed and leadoff ability.

For some reason you seem to think that being able to hit the ball out of the infield on the fly precludes one from being able to hit leadoff or run fast. I do not follow.

ramp101
08-20-2002, 11:35 AM
burnett would cost you dunn.....you cant get him for 3 2nd tier prospects....sorry

when did rickey ever hit more than 28hr?
the answer:never

soriano is already at 30, he will keep getting better and in time will no longer leadoff...jeter should lead off for them

OldXOhio
08-20-2002, 11:35 AM
JRod, whatever it is you're smoking, feel free to pass it around the room when you're finished.

ramp101
08-20-2002, 11:37 AM
then send some of it south my way

J-Rod
08-20-2002, 11:39 AM
Oh, the old "what ever your smoking" phrase?

Burnett would not Cost Dunn.

Did Colon cost Guerrero?

Krusty
08-20-2002, 11:39 AM
Frankly, I would like to see Toronto's Shannon Stewart playing everyday in LF for the Reds and leading off with Dunn shifted to lst base. But I doubt very much Bowden will deal Casey especially after the season he has had.

ramp101
08-20-2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by J-Rod
Oh, the old "what ever your smoking" phrase?

Burnett would not Cost Dunn.

Did Colon cost Guerrero?

do u realize what the spos gave up for colon?

best ss prospect in the game,cliff lee and grady sizemore...way too much to give up

aj burnett would cost dunn, if you think otherwise you are ignorant

danforsman
08-20-2002, 11:50 AM
One who thinks that it would be necessary to trade a 22 y/o specimen, built like Univ of Texas Tight End, with a throwing arm fitting of a Univ of Texas QB, a tremendously veteran-like plate discipline, a charismatic personality, indescribable power, above-average speed, and a relatively miniscule contract in order to receive an overworked (albeit talented) flamethrower, so overworked in fact that he is on the shelf for the remainder of his team's final (ever) season.

J-Rod
08-20-2002, 11:54 AM
Ditto.....

OldXOhio
08-20-2002, 11:55 AM
let's see here, the guy is 25 and a potential #1 in 2003 who has an elbow bruise. Why would Florida do anything short of being ultra conservative w/ this guy considering they are probably not playing past Sept 30th?

no, I am not advocating trading Dunn, but if Burnett were a Red, ask yourself what you'd be commading for him. I can promise you I'd be asking for a young, top of the line major leaguer w/ huge upside.

ramp101
08-20-2002, 11:55 AM
say what you want but unless adam dunn was involved, marlins wouldnt deal aj burnett...

i am not saying that would even happen but burnett is an ACE and those are hard to come by

J-Rod
08-20-2002, 11:59 AM
Brandon Phillips wasn't one.

Pena, Larson, Hall, and another pitching prospect would be a good deal.

Randy Johnson didn't garner ready major leaguers. Freddie Garcia and John Halama were in the minors. Guillen isn't a top flight guy either.

Albeit, they all have been darn good pieces for the Mariners.

OldXOhio
08-20-2002, 11:59 AM
is Burnett a free agent after this season?

J-Rod
08-20-2002, 11:59 AM
I am not saying Freddie Garcia is not a top of the line guy.

danforsman
08-20-2002, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by ramp101
say what you want but unless adam dunn was involved, marlins wouldnt deal aj burnett...


Precisely the reason the Marlins are co-laughingstock of the sport. Supported by the fact that they ran Burnett into the ground while simultaneously dumping 90% of the 'upside' which they had assembled.

ramp101
08-20-2002, 12:03 PM
burnett isnt a free agent and brandon phillips was a top 5 prospect

the unit got them 3 big pieces to that team

danforsman
08-20-2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by ramp101

the unit got them 3 big pieces to that team

Carlos Guillen and John Halama? I would say GARGANTUAN pieces to that team.

OldXOhio
08-20-2002, 12:05 PM
"burnett isnt a free agent"

precisely, so using the Colon and Unit trades as reference is comparing apples to oranges.

Old Red Guard
08-20-2002, 12:09 PM
Forget Burnett - even that idiot Huizenga isn't trading him. Castillo can be had if we want to pay the dollars. Sign him and then use Walker, along with 1 or 2 prospects (Howington, Pena) for Penney. Penney is a do-able trade. Burnett is not. Keep a careful eye on Montreal's situation - Colon may yet wind up available. Suppan and Byrd will be on the market. I still believe Suppan, with a good team, can be a #1. Byrd is basically a healthy Moehler so why get what we already have? Corey Lidle could be had but Beane will ask the moon and besides, I'm not sure he is #1 material. Either Glavine or Maddux will be on the market but the price would be steep for a guy at the end of his career. Actually my greatest hope for a #1 comes from this group:

Moseley, Hudson, Gruler, Howington (injuries are starting to make me question him though), Aramboles (same as Howington),
Basham, Kelley, Hall.

Outside of Moseley, who I'd be reluctant to trade for anyone short of a Burnett, I'd package any ONE of them for a Penney or Colon, but I'd rather Carl loosened up enough to sign one as a FA. (I know - fat chance).

HUGE RELIEF THOUGH GUYS! We still have Reith and Etherton!
:rolleyes:

ramp101
08-20-2002, 12:11 PM
penny could be had although, i believe talks between management and his agent have resumed after a 4 month delay

i think penny could be traded but not beckett or aj

J-Rod
08-20-2002, 01:44 PM
He is signed through next year at 6 million.

ramp101
08-20-2002, 01:54 PM
yea jrod is right on that one

but there is no reason for the fish to trade aj burnett...unless you have one?
:confused:

J-Rod
08-20-2002, 02:35 PM
Ramp,

I don't know if the Fish have a reason to trade AJ. I really don't. I was origanlly talking about legit young pitchers who have tremendous upsides who might be out there for the Reds to aquire so that they could have an ace. He was one. Colon was the other. They are the only canidates that seem to be available fitting those qualifications.

But believe you, me.

Bowden has already talked about all the pitchers on the Florida Marlins roster and if AJ were to come available. HE would make a strong case to grab him.

Nuff said.

ramp101
08-20-2002, 02:37 PM
thats nice but if dunn wasnt involved then there would be no deal...i am saying

Chip R
08-20-2002, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by ramp101
but there is no reason for the fish to trade aj burnett...unless you have one?
:confused:

Maybe Loria wants to alienate another fan base so he can move the team to greener pastures.

ramp101
08-20-2002, 03:03 PM
i am a loria backer....im probably going to have my heart crushed but i will trust him for now.....hey atleast the guy just gave me a job next summer!

Ga_Red
08-20-2002, 03:28 PM
2/09/07

ramp101
08-20-2002, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Ga_Red
Ramp101,
would LaRue, Pena, Dawkins, Howington and S Dunn
get the Reds Castillo and AJ, today?

i dont even think that would get you castillo right now

if aj were to go to cincy, adam dunn would be in a teal uni

Ga_Red
08-20-2002, 03:43 PM
2/09/07

ramp101
08-20-2002, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Ga_Red
let's see......

1) Larue...a better catcher than Johnson at half the bucks...
2) 3 of Bowden's list he said he would not trade,
...a. our touted best young pitching prospect
...b..a phenom with Hank Aaron potential
...c., the long awaited reincarnation of Barry Larkin
3) and a young AA pitcher with considerable upside

for a FA in 6 weeks and an arb eligible #1 which you will have to trade in 2 years because you can't afford him.....

and all the above at a time you are trying to reduce payroll....

I think ya gotta counter, at least.

cj and preston wilson is who we are trading to drop payroll....ramon castro is our catcher fo the future so no thanks on larue.....we have soooo much pitching......and finally, i think castillo will resign, thats my counter

i would want gookie dawkins why?

who is s dunn? i have looked thru your minors what team is he on?

westofyou
08-20-2002, 03:49 PM
c., the long awaited reincarnation of Barry Larkin

As Steven Tyler would say:

Dream On.... ;)

danforsman
08-20-2002, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by ramp101


i dont even think that would get you castillo right now

if aj were to go to cincy, adam dunn would be in a teal uni

Would people please stop treating ramp101 like he knows something special about the Marlins. Other than the fact he obviously knows the players names, he has never presented any knowledgable insight or commentary. He has repeatedly stated (then denied, then stated, then denied, now re-stated) that he thinks Dunn for Burnett swap would be a fair one for both sides "because the Reds need pitching". That is absurd; I don't care who your favorite team is. He says that a deal where the Reds would theoretically give up WMP, S. Dunn, and Ty-How would not get us a FA 2b that the Marlins more than likely (if history is a predictor) will not re-sign due to financial constraints. He is clearly seeing the world through saltwater stained, teal-shaded glasses and cannot even sustain a consistent argument for fear that a thread has gone onto the board to which he hasn't made the most recent response. (See Reidling DL thread). While he has at least removed his "Fish in the WC race trailer", he has apparently had enough time while toiling in Mr. Loria's (or is it Mr. Dombrowski's) right hand to rapid-fire retarded posts seamlessly across this board.

Playadlc
08-20-2002, 04:04 PM
Torborg is going to ruin AJ Burnett. Burnett is only 25 and only Randy Johnson has thrown more pitches. I should have traded Burnett a couple weeks ago in my fantasy league because everyone that knows anything about baseball saw this injury coming. Burnett could be one of the best in the NL if Torborg doesnt kill him, but I don't see that happening.

westofyou
08-20-2002, 04:09 PM
Would people please stop treating ramp101 like he knows something special about the Marlins.

Would you rather we follow your lead and insult him and the city he lives in?

danforsman
08-20-2002, 04:14 PM
I specifically insulted his posts as being misleading and FOS. As for the city of Miami, that was slightly in jest, but feel free to have at it with Lexington or Houston. I have my problems with both. Miami is notoriously the Worst Sports City in the nation, besides possibly Atlanta, which is exactly what I said. Their fans are fair-weathered and disloyal. That is a generalization, but a factual one.

recordboyusa
08-20-2002, 04:41 PM
No, they play in North Dade County, just south of the county line, next to Calder Race Track!

Geez, and you're going to be interning there? :evilgrin:

ramp101
08-20-2002, 04:43 PM
I happen to have alot of knowledge about the marlins and if you think aj burnett would go for anything less than adam dunn would be using no common sense

luis castillo will probably resign assuming we have a taker for preston wilson...we will then have enough $$ for him

we would never trade castillo for more pitching...our minors are loaded with prospects better than howington

the marlins need a lefty bat-no thanks on casey and walker

anything else to say dansforman?, resident expert on everything:rolleyes:

ramp101
08-20-2002, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by recordboyusa
[QUOTEfirst off the marlins play in ft.lauderdale and not miami.


No, they play in North Dade County, just south of the county line, next to Calder Race Track!

Geez, and you're going to be interning there? :evilgrin:

most people would recognize ft.lauderdale more than dade...who knew a fellow floridian would be on the board

and yes i will be interning for the fish;)

fielder's choice
08-20-2002, 05:00 PM
We need to TRADE DUNN for an ace this offseason. We have Kearns who is a better ballplayer. Dunn's value is still high, but it will be lower as time goes on. We have capable OF'ers in our farm like Mateo and Pena. Who's with me??

redrum
08-20-2002, 05:07 PM
Sorry, but you lost me with the Kearns is a better ballplayer part.

ramp101
08-20-2002, 05:10 PM
We need to TRADE DUNN for an ace this offseason. We have Kearns who is a better ballplayer. Dunn's value is still high, but it will be lower as time goes on. We have capable OF'ers in our farm like Mateo and Pena. Who's with me??

wow that came out of left field:lol:

westofyou
08-20-2002, 05:19 PM
Dunn's value is still high, but it will be lower as time goes on.

Now THAT is funny.


Only 3 players have EVER had 110 + walks, .950 OPS and 25 HR's at the age of 22 in the history of Baseball.

We have the 4th


OPS YEAR OPS HR OPS BB
1 Ted Williams 1941 1.286 37 1.286 145
2 Mel Ott 1929 1.084 42 1.084 113
3 Eddie Mathews 1954 1.026 40 1.026 113


AND only 16 guys 25 and under have done it

And only 25 guys under 26 have done it


OPS YEAR OPS HR OPS BB
1 Babe Ruth 1920 1.379 54 1.379 150
2 Ted Williams 1941 1.286 37 1.286 145
3 Jimmie Foxx 1932 1.218 58 1.218 116
4 Mickey Mantle 1957 1.177 34 1.177 146
5 Mickey Mantle 1956 1.169 52 1.169 112
6 Ted Williams 1942 1.147 36 1.147 145
7 Mel Ott 1929 1.084 42 1.084 113
8 Jim Thome 1996 1.062 38 1.062 123
9 Mickey Mantle 1955 1.042 37 1.042 113
10 Frank Thomas 1993 1.033 41 1.033 112
11 Eddie Mathews 1954 1.026 40 1.026 113
12 Reggie Jackson 1969 1.018 47 1.018 114
13 Troy Glaus 2000 1.008 47 1.008 112
14 Frank Thomas 1991 1.006 32 1.006 138
15 Harlond Clift 1938 .977 34 .977 118
16 Rusty Staub 1969 .952 29 .952 110


1 Babe Ruth 1920 1.379 54 1.379 150
2 Babe Ruth 1921 1.359 59 1.359 145
3 Ted Williams 1941 1.286 37 1.286 145
4 Jimmie Foxx 1932 1.218 58 1.218 116
5 Mickey Mantle 1957 1.177 34 1.177 146
6 Mickey Mantle 1956 1.169 52 1.169 112
7 Norm Cash 1961 1.148 41 1.148 124
8 Ted Williams 1942 1.147 36 1.147 145
9 Jimmie Foxx 1934 1.102 44 1.102 111
10 Ralph Kiner 1949 1.089 54 1.089 117
11 Mel Ott 1929 1.084 42 1.084 113
12 Jim Thome 1996 1.062 38 1.062 123
13 Mickey Mantle 1955 1.042 37 1.042 113
14 Mickey Mantle 1958 1.035 42 1.035 129
15 Frank Thomas 1993 1.033 41 1.033 112
16 Eddie Mathews 1954 1.026 40 1.026 113
17 Reggie Jackson 1969 1.018 47 1.018 114
18 Lou Gehrig 1929 1.013 35 1.013 122
19 Troy Glaus 2000 1.008 47 1.008 112
20 Frank Thomas 1991 1.006 32 1.006 138
21 Jim Thome 1997 1.001 40 1.001 120
22 Harlond Clift 1938 .977 34 .977 118
23 John Mayberry 1975 .963 34 .963 119
24 Darrell Evans 1973 .959 41 .959 124
25 Rusty Staub 1969 .952 29 .952 110

redleg28x
08-20-2002, 05:29 PM
"Dunn's value is still high, but it will be lower as time goes on"

Thats one of the stupidest things i've heard on this site. The guy's 22 and your acting like his career in on a downfall.

J-Rod
08-20-2002, 07:53 PM
I think you have a great passion for the Marlins, but undersand this.


Jim Bowden would not trade Adam Dunn to the Marlins for

Josh Beckett, and A.J. Burnett.

HE would not trade him for Bartolo Colon.

He would not trade him for anyone.

By the way....

IF the Marlins had Adam Dunn, they would not trade him to any team for A.J. Burnett.

The most your going to get is about the same Cleveland garnered for Colon from Montreal.

I would say

Todd Walker (to replace departed Free Agent Luis Castillo)
Wily Mo Pena
Scott Dunn
A ball pitcher

for

RHP A.J. Burnett

Would be a good trade for the Marlins to get.

They are not even going to get Howington or Moseley for Burnett.

ramp101
08-20-2002, 08:20 PM
oh god...that is too funny

beckett and burnett for dunn wouldnt work? oh stop it!!!:lol:

you are comparing the package of todd walker,Wily Mo "K-King" Pena, Scott Dunn(who?) to the package of brandon phillips,grady sizemore,and cliff lee?:eek:
ummmm....try again

and you are saying the marlins wouldnt get howington or mosely either...yea you would make a great gm:rolleyes:

anything else jrod? most of this board except you and danforsman would back me on this one
:D

fielder's choice
08-20-2002, 09:19 PM
but I would rather have an ace. And Kearns is a better all-around player. Dunn will end up with a ton of HR's, but we don't need him as much as we need an ace.

fielder's choice
08-20-2002, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by redleg28x
"Dunn's value is still high, but it will be lower as time goes on"

Thats one of the stupidest things i've heard on this site. The guy's 22 and your acting like his career in on a downfall.

Wow, you've been here a whoppin' 2 weeks. :rolleyes:

LvJ
08-20-2002, 10:01 PM
The amount of time a guy has been here doesn't increase, nor decrease a guys brain power. Heh.

Take you, for an example. :rolleyes:

ramp101
08-20-2002, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by Red LvJ
The amount of time a guy has been here doesn't increase, nor decrease a guys brain power. Heh.


Take you, for an example. :rolleyes: :lol: :roll: :lol:

Gus
08-20-2002, 11:34 PM
Soriano has too much power to stay at the lead off spot any longer than another year or two, I think most teams would eventually like to see him as a #3 or #4 hitter.

IslandRed
08-21-2002, 01:43 AM
Soriano's OBP isn't that hot -- .329 as of tonight -- because he has one of the lowest walk rates in the majors. His power makes him a very valuable offensive player, especially considering his position, but his low OBP makes him better suited to hit in the middle of the order rather than leading off.

buckeyenut
08-21-2002, 12:00 PM
Man, there is a lot of crap in this thread :D

1) Soriano is not a good leadoff hitter. He has a .329 OBP. He will likely never be a good leadoff hitter because he is a freak like vlad who can swing and hit just about any pitch and will. With his power and low OBP, you are looking at an ideal 4 or 5 hitter. Course, getting past the stereotype of where you bat a speedy 2B is tough there. I would say the 3 best leadoff hitters in the game are probably Ichiro Suzuki, Luis Castillo and Shannon Stewart, in that order.

2) For those trying to put up an offer comparable to the Colon offer, the only guy that really could be considered comparable to Phillips at the time of that trade was Austin Kearns. Now, Austin has moved ahead of Phillips some in trade value because he is producing NOW at the major league level. But please stop trying to say that WilyMo and Scott Dunn and Howington or whatever is comparable to the deal CLE got for Colon. Because I have not seen anyone come anywhere close in this thread. The closest we could have come to what Montreal offered at the time would have been something like Casey, Kearns, Espinosa, Howington. Anybody want to deal those four in exchange for Colon? How about for Burnett? I sure as heck wouldn't.

3) Back to Burnett. The only guy that the Marlins might trade Burnett (or Beckett) for straight up on our roster is Adam Dunn. And I think that is absolutely right on their side. I also don't think I would trade Adam Dunn for either of them. All three of the guys we are talking about have a very good opportunity to be special players. And you don't trade special players, even for each other. Because what happens when one guy becomes special and the other doesn't? Somebody looks bad. If you hold onto your special guy and he fails, you don't look nearly as bad.

4) Want another Fish pitcher? Penny is the guy, not Burnett or Beckett. Penny is attainable, although he would not be cheap. And it wouldn't cost Kearns or Dunn. He is a guy you could put a package together to get.

5) It has been said many times that Kearns is the better allaround player than Adam Dunn. Dunn has more power and is more patient (not to say that Kearns is a slouch by any means). Kearns is better in EVERY other aspect of the game. Both of these guys will be very good. And another little tidbit, Pena is a RH Dunn minus the patience and with more holes is his swing. Mateo is MAYBE even a little better than Kearns at the plate and not as good in the field. With all four of them in your system, the only reason you don't trade either Kearns or Dunn (higher trade value) rather than Mateo or Pena is because of the PR backlash. They have been talking up this dream OF of Dunn, JR. and Kearns for so long now that if they break it up, they are gonna hear it loud and clear from the fans.

6) Please lay off Ramp. While he does have a little homer in him (he works for the fish for christsakes, he ought to), he has been pretty much dead on in his player evaluation in general. Nothing too out there (other than maybe the Larson at SS thing ;) ) Having another knowledgable baseball fan, especially one with a little different perspective, is IMO very interesting.

7) Sorry for the length of this. Maybe I shoulda chimed in on part of this during the first 3 pages ;)

fielder's choice
08-21-2002, 02:09 PM
Kearns- 3-3, HR, 2BB
Dunn- 0-5, 5 K's

Dunn seems like a guy who doesn't have a plan at the plate. He is very patient but that's a bad thing. If he doesn't get a pitch the right speed and location, he takes it, he doesn't adjust. He also looks like a guy with no guts. Last night, he goes up against one of the premier pitchers in the league and strikes out every time, and in late clutch situations, he more often than not fails to make contact. You guys ought to try to be more open-minded. You love Dunn, as you should, but there is no way he would be an 'untouchable.' I would be fine letting Kearns have the spotlight and letting Dunn go for a pitcher.

westofyou
08-21-2002, 02:15 PM
Dunn seems like a guy who doesn't have a plan at the plate.

Scott Dunn?

Try all you must, but using last night as your example is ridiculous.

Especially considering who was on the mound.

the guy has a.900 + OPS for the season

A lifetime .400 + OPS and he's averaged an extra base hit every 7.7 AB.

Yet he has no clue at all eh?

:rolleyes:

fielder's choice
08-21-2002, 02:21 PM
Please stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say he had no clue, I said he had no plan. Geez. :rolleyes:

westofyou
08-21-2002, 02:28 PM
No plan... OK.

There have been 132 "seasons" with a player getting over 110 BB under the age of 30.

They all had a "plan"

getting on base.

I put Dunn in that group, and it's a fine list of ballplayers.


1 Babe Ruth 1923 170 170
T2 Ted Williams 1947 162 162
T2 Ted Williams 1949 162 162
4 Ted Williams 1946 156 156
5 Eddie Yost 1956 151 151
6 Babe Ruth 1920 150 150
T7 Eddie Stanky 1945 148 148
T7 Jimmy Wynn 1969 148 148
9 Mickey Mantle 1957 146 146
T10 Ted Williams 1942 145 145
T10 Ted Williams 1941 145 145
T10 Babe Ruth 1921 145 145
T13 Babe Ruth 1924 142 142
T13 Gary Sheffield 1996 142 142
15 Eddie Yost 1950 141 141
16 Frank Thomas 1991 138 138
T17 Jason Giambi 2000 137 137
T17 Ralph Kiner 1951 137 137
T17 Eddie Stanky 1946 137 137
T20 Ferris Fain 1949 136 136
T20 Frank Thomas 1995 136 136
22 Jeff Bagwell 1996 135 135
23 Ferris Fain 1950 133 133
24 Eddie Yost 1954 131 131
T25 Eddie Yost 1952 129 129
T25 Jason Giambi 2001 129 129
T25 Lenny Dykstra 1993 129 129
T25 Mickey Mantle 1958 129 129
T29 Max Bishop 1929 128 128
T29 Max Bishop 1930 128 128
T29 Carl Yastrzemski 1970 128 128
T32 Jeff Bagwell 1997 127 127
T32 Jim Thome 1999 127 127
T32 Barry Bonds 1992 127 127
T35 Eddie Yost 1951 126 126
T35 Mickey Mantle 1961 126 126
T35 Ted Williams 1948 126 126
T35 Chipper Jones 1999 126 126
T35 Barry Bonds 1993 126 126
T35 Rickey Henderson 1989 126 126
T35 Darrell Evans 1974 126 126
T42 Wade Boggs 1988 125 125
T42 Gene Tenace 1977 125 125
T42 Richie Ashburn 1954 125 125
T42 John Olerud 1999 125 125
T46 Norm Cash 1961 124 124
T46 Darrell Evans 1973 124 124
T48 Eddie Yost 1953 123 123
T48 Jim Thome 1996 123 123
T48 Carlos Delgado 2000 123 123
T48 Ken Singleton 1973 123 123
T52 Lou Gehrig 1929 122 122
T52 John Mayberry 1973 122 122
T52 Luke Appling 1935 122 122
T52 Ralph Kiner 1950 122 122
T52 Frank Thomas 1992 122 122
T52 Mickey Mantle 1962 122 122
T58 Gary Sheffield 1997 121 121
T58 Darrell Porter 1979 121 121
T58 Roy Cullenbine 1941 121 121
T58 Von Hayes 1987 121 121
T62 Jim Thome 1997 120 120
T62 Barry Bonds 1995 120 120
T62 Joe Morgan 1974 120 120
T62 Mike Schmidt 1979 120 120
T66 Jimmie Foxx 1938 119 119
T66 Eddie Collins 1915 119 119
T66 Hank Greenberg 1938 119 119
T66 John Mayberry 1975 119 119
T66 Willie Randolph 1980 119 119
T66 Elmer Valo 1949 119 119
T66 Fred McGriff 1989 119 119
T66 Elbie Fletcher 1940 119 119
T66 Carl Yastrzemski 1968 119 119
T66 Earl Torgeson 1950 119 119
T76 Harlond Clift 1938 118 118
T76 Elbie Fletcher 1941 118 118
T76 Ty Cobb 1915 118 118
T76 Jim Thome 2000 118 118
T76 Ken Singleton 1975 118 118
T76 Donie Bush 1915 118 118
T76 Sal Bando 1970 118 118
T76 Arky Vaughan 1936 118 118
T76 Mel Ott 1938 118 118
T76 Burt Shotton 1915 118 118
T86 Rickey Henderson 1980 117 117
T86 Jeff Burroughs 1978 117 117
T86 Ralph Kiner 1949 117 117
T86 Lyn Lary 1936 117 117
T86 Donie Bush 1912 117 117
T86 Lou Gehrig 1931 117 117
T92 Jimmie Foxx 1932 116 116
T92 Max Bishop 1926 116 116
T92 Pee Wee Reese 1949 116 116
T92 Rickey Henderson 1982 116 116
T92 Dolph Camilli 1936 116 116
T97 Harlond Clift 1936 115 115
T97 Roy Thomas 1900 115 115
T97 Joe Morgan 1972 115 115
T100 Reggie Jackson 1969 114 114
T100 Jimmie Foxx 1935 114 114
T100 John Olerud 1993 114 114
T100 Charlie Keller 1942 114 114
T100 Brian Giles 2000 114 114
T105 Ferris Fain 1948 113 113
T105 Mel Ott 1929 113 113
T105 Charlie Keller 1946 113 113
T105 Mickey Mantle 1955 113 113
T105 Harlond Clift 1941 113 113
T105 Eddie Mathews 1954 113 113
T105 Rocky Colavito 1961 113 113
T112 Mickey Mantle 1956 112 112
T112 Frank Thomas 1993 112 112
T112 Dwight Evans 1982 112 112
T112 Ralph Kiner 1948 112 112
T112 Troy Glaus 2000 112 112
T112 Donie Bush 1914 112 112
T112 Rusty Staub 1970 112 112
T119 Mel Ott 1936 111 111
T119 Harlond Clift 1939 111 111
T119 Jim Thome 2001 111 111
T119 Mike Hargrove 1980 111 111
T119 Elbie Fletcher 1946 111 111
T119 Joe Morgan 1973 111 111
T119 Jimmie Foxx 1934 111 111
T119 Mickey Mantle 1960 111 111
T119 Sal Bando 1969 111 111
T119 Eddie Mathews 1960 111 111
T119 Carlos Delgado 2001 111 111
T130 Rusty Staub 1969 110 110
T130 Gene Tenace 1974 110 110
T130 Frank Thomas 1998 110 110
T130 Ralph Kiner 1952 110 110
T130 Mark McGwire 1990 110 110
T130 Norm Siebern 1962 110 110
T130 Joe Morgan 1969 110 110

buckeyenut
08-21-2002, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by fielder's choice
Kearns- 3-3, HR, 2BB
Dunn- 0-5, 5 K's

Dunn seems like a guy who doesn't have a plan at the plate. He is very patient but that's a bad thing. If he doesn't get a pitch the right speed and location, he takes it, he doesn't adjust. He also looks like a guy with no guts. Last night, he goes up against one of the premier pitchers in the league and strikes out every time, and in late clutch situations, he more often than not fails to make contact. You guys ought to try to be more open-minded. You love Dunn, as you should, but there is no way he would be an 'untouchable.' I would be fine letting Kearns have the spotlight and letting Dunn go for a pitcher.

You know what? Maybe Dunn did look like he had no clue at the plate. So what!!! The guy is mired in one of the worst slumps of his very short career and going up against the PREMIER left handed pitcher in the game. And you're surprised he had no clue? I'm not.

I didn't see the game, but I am guessing that probably 2-3 of the 5 strikeouts were looking. Seems to be Dunn's MO. That will change as he matures and defines his approach a little and he earns some respect from the umps. Not that this has anything to do with anything. ;)

ramp101
08-21-2002, 04:23 PM
hey fielders choice:

adam dunn for homer bush?

bush had a base hit last night;)

fielder's choice
08-21-2002, 04:44 PM
Dunn IS a fine ballplayer but I would not hate it if we traded him for pitching, and Buckeye, FWIW, one of the called strike threes was quite outside.
Pitchers have figured out how to get him out and he needs to make an adjustment. And ramp: does homer bush pitch? :rolleyes:

ramp101
08-21-2002, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by fielder's choice
And ramp: does homer bush pitch? :rolleyes:

no, but im sure he'd fit right in your bullpen [low-blow...lol]

fine julian tavarez for adam dunn:lol:

in all seriousness, it would be a crime to trade either dunn or kearns for anything....:thumbup:

J-Rod
08-22-2002, 05:42 PM
A decade from now.....Adam Dunn will be a perennial All-Star and MVP Candiate posting Hall of Fame numbers.


The same decade from now....

The Marlins will be without A.J. Burnett, where ever they trade him, still wondering what they let go. He is a #1 or #2 starter over the period, averaging 18 wins per season, with an ERA under 3.00, posting in the top 5 in K's every year for the major leagues.


Thats the differance in the 2 players.

Besides the obvious pitcher vs position player delima.

ramp101
08-22-2002, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by J-Rod


The Marlins will be without A.J. Burnett, where ever they trade him, still wondering what they let go. He is a #1 or #2 starter over the period, averaging 18 wins per season, with an ERA under 3.00, posting in the top 5 in K's every year for the major leagues.


yawn:rolleyes:

yea because aj will be traded who said dunn wont..and if there is some sort of revenue sharing, i guaran-damn-tee you aj stays a marlin

i think aj is #1 right now

letsgojunior
08-22-2002, 06:35 PM
I would be SHOCKED in the next five years if Burnett had yet to elevate himself into the upper tier of pitchers in all of baseball. He is a #1 without question provided he works out his occasional control problems. If the Marlins had any sort of team around him he could win 20 games without question.

And they obviously think that as well, as I have read in numerous publications that the Marlins think 1) Burnett is the best pitcher on the staff - even better than Beckett and 2) He is as untouchable as they come.

Although I would never trade Dunn in a million years, if someone offered me a bona fide #1 who could anchor the staff, pitch 200+ IP per year, and win 20 games for a package centering on a corner outfielder, I would have to think about it.

We have shown for the last three years that pitching wins it.

Chip R
08-23-2002, 10:10 AM
Ramp, I don't know if you read baseball Prospectus but they mentioned your boy Burnett in there as an example of a young pitcher being overused. Thought you may find it interesting.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20020820daily.shtml

ramp101
08-23-2002, 01:44 PM
in order for a pitcher to become like Randy Johnson and go 140 pitches a night he needs to start young and throw 110 pitches a game...im not worried about him...i did read it though, thanks

WebScorpion
08-23-2002, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by buckeyenut

I didn't see the game, but I am guessing that probably 2-3 of the 5 strikeouts were looking. Seems to be Dunn's MO. That will change as he matures and defines his approach a little and he earns some respect from the umps. Not that this has anything to do with anything. ;)

That's exactly what I would have thought! I've seen Dunn strikeout looking more times than any player I can recall. I was paying particular attention to it that night...he was swinging 4 of the 5 times. The only time he went down looking was the call that got Boone ejected. He seems to have realized he's not going to get many calls so he's taking his cuts now. Unfortunately, he's still not making contact. :eek:

J-Rod
08-23-2002, 07:32 PM
Well, he could use someone batting behind him. I think Austin Is doing so well now, #1 because of his talent, but #2, is because teams are pitching to him. They are not pitching to Dunn. They know he will beat them.

fielder's choice
08-23-2002, 07:55 PM
Not pitching to Dunn? Throughout his entire slump he hasn't been walking near as much. Pitchers are going right after him.