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Chip R
07-05-2006, 09:32 AM
Could we be having a platoon between Lopez and Castro at SS? Kind of sounds like it to me.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060705/SPT04/607050335/1071

Castro gets playing time
Reds notebook

BY JOHN FAY | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

MILWAUKEE - Brandon Phillips led off Tuesday against the Milwaukee Brewers.

Juan Castro started at shortstop for Felipe Lopez, and Ryan Freel did not start.

"Without Freel and Lopez, it falls to (Phillips)," Reds manager Jerry Narron said. "Honestly, I feel comfortable with wherever he hits. I think he's going to give us a good at-bat."

Phillips went 1-for-3 with a walk. He had his string of 16 straight successful steal attempts snapped in the first inning.

It was Lopez's third day off in a week.

"It's been a grind here before the All-Star break," Narron said. "I'm trying to get Juan out there as much I can."

The addition of Castro gives Narron another alternative at shortstop - a sure-handed one and a right-handed-hitting one. (Lopez is hitting .209 against right-handers.) Castro makes it easier to rest Lopez, Narron said.

PROJECTION: Ken Griffey Jr. missed 26 games with a strained biceps tendon in his right knee.
Factoring in that missed time, if you project his current numbers - 18 homers, 50 RBI - he would have 26 homers and 76 RBI.

HOMER PERFECT: Johnny Almaraz, director of player development, has two reasons why No. 1 prospect Homer Bailey has been better since he was promoted from Single-A Sarasota to Double-A Chattanooga: distorted statistics and rest.

"He made a lot of strides in Sarasota with mechanics," Almaraz said. "Statistically, his numbers weren't great, but he did everything we asked him to.

"We also held him back a start to refresh him."
Bailey, a 20-year-old right-hander, went 3-5 with a 3.31 ERA for Sarasota. He's 3-0 with a 0.00 ERA in three starts for Chattanooga.

Though the Reds don't have the strict limits on pitch counts that they had under Dan O'Brien, they want to keep Bailey to 140-150 innings. He's at 87 2/3 so far.

"We'll evaluate him," Almaraz said. "If he's still going strong, we might let him keep going. If he shows fatigue, we'll hold him back."

FARM REPORT: Joey Votto was named the Southern League player of the month for June. Votto, a 22-year-old first baseman, hit .355 with eight home runs, 24 RBI and five steals.

Dayton's Jay Bruce extended his hitting streak to six games by going 3-for-4 with two doubles and a home run. Bruce has 33 doubles and 57 RBI and is hitting .319.

Red Leader
07-05-2006, 09:44 AM
I really think you're reading too much into this, Chip. I think Narron is simply saying that now that they have an All-Star caliber defensive SS, with veteran presence, they are better able to rest Felipe Lopez. :)

Honestly, I think that Castro won't get more than a couple starts a month at SS. Felipe could use a little rest every now and then, though.

IslandRed
07-05-2006, 09:45 AM
As tempting as it is to rip that, let's face a hard truth first: Against a left-handed pitcher, Felipe Lopez is almost as poor a hitter as Juan Castro. So if they think he needs days off now and then, sitting him against LHPs is the way to do it.

I'd like to see them work Freel into the lineup on those days, though.

BRM
07-05-2006, 09:50 AM
As tempting as it is to rip that, let's face a hard truth first: Against a left-handed pitcher, Felipe Lopez is almost as poor a hitter as Juan Castro. So if they think he needs days off now and then, sitting him against LHPs is the way to do it.

I'd like to see them work Freel into the lineup on those days, though.

It's sad but you're right. Against LHP, Lopez has a .588 OPS and Castro's is .564.

I agree. Phillips at SS with Freel at 2B would be better than starting Castro.

Puffy
07-05-2006, 09:51 AM
Juan Castro is the bane of my existence.

I loathe Juan Castro as a member of the Cincinnati Reds ©

membengal
07-05-2006, 09:56 AM
It's sad but you're right. Against LHP, Lopez has a .588 OPS and Castro's is .564.

I agree. Phillips at SS with Freel at 2B would be better than starting Castro.

Castro's will stay there. Lopez's most likely will not.

This thread makes me sad.

BRM
07-05-2006, 10:00 AM
Castro's will stay there. Lopez's most likely will not.


Yep. Castro actually hits RHP better anyway with a .248/.254/.341 line. That's a .595 OPS for those who don't like to add. :)

registerthis
07-05-2006, 10:25 AM
Castro's will stay there. Lopez's most likely will not.

From 2003- 2005, Lopez had only a .673 OPS vs. LHP (including a woeful .303 OBP). That's pretty atrocious. And, of course, he's actually hitting worse vs. lefties this year. He *could* improve, but that's far from "most likely."

Now, Juan Castro isn't the answer to anything, so I'm not advocating for more playing time for him. But having him in vs. a lefty now and then doesn't adversely affect this team much more than having Lopez there. Lopez hasn't shown any propensity to hit LHPs throughout his career, and he's showing no signs of improving there either.

WVRedsFan
07-05-2006, 10:39 AM
This whole discussion burns me up. Anyone, and I mean anyone, who would choose even playing Juan Castro over Felipe Lopez is totally insane. Castro is one guy who should be used as a defensive replacement only. The fact that he even starts a game is nearly unbelievable.

This is Jerry Narron. For all of you in love with him, these are the warts that we have to live with for two years.

And when, as we now see, that dream of a playoff year dwindle into oblivion go up in smoke, we're still stuck with him two more years. Whats even scarier is that the new regime, one which I thought was so much better, likes him ever so much.

I'd beat my head against the wall, but the last few seasons I've done it so much that it doesn't even hurt anymore.

Johnny Footstool
07-05-2006, 10:51 AM
How will Lopez ever have a chance to improve against lefties if his manager won't let him face them?

VR
07-05-2006, 11:09 AM
How will Lopez ever have a chance to improve against lefties if his manager won't let him face them?

His manager(s) have allowed him to for years, yet he has regressed. So, that concept is out the window. Let him work with Chambliss on his approach/ mechanics on hitting right handed, not against live pitching.

penantboundreds
07-05-2006, 11:11 AM
Lopez should hit lefthanded against lefties, his right handed swing has no timing and is pretty much a bad looking (effectiveness wise too) swing. Castro is probably a good replacement to go against lefties every third lefty to rest Lopez a little bit.

membengal
07-05-2006, 11:15 AM
From 2003- 2005, Lopez had only a .673 OPS vs. LHP (including a woeful .303 OBP). That's pretty atrocious. And, of course, he's actually hitting worse vs. lefties this year. He *could* improve, but that's far from "most likely."

Now, Juan Castro isn't the answer to anything, so I'm not advocating for more playing time for him. But having him in vs. a lefty now and then doesn't adversely affect this team much more than having Lopez there. Lopez hasn't shown any propensity to hit LHPs throughout his career, and he's showing no signs of improving there either.

So...if his lifetime OPS versus lefties is .673, then my statement that Lopez's current .588 is due to improve against lefties is accurate, no? I didn't say Lopez would correct to a .900 OPS against lefties, just that he was underperforming at .588. And, please, tell me, do you really expect Castro to improve his OPS from where it is? Or is Lopez the better bet to improve his OPS from where it is? My money would be on Lopez, but then again, I have not apparently learned to appreciate the sway that golden hands can have on my life too. I swear, he must be like a Tony Robbins informercial in the clubouse on a daily basis.

BRM
07-05-2006, 11:18 AM
Castro is probably a good replacement to go against lefties every third lefty to rest Lopez a little bit.

If Lopez needs to sit against lefties, simply slide Phillips to SS and put Freel at 2B. There is never a need to start Castro, against anyone.

registerthis
07-05-2006, 11:21 AM
So...if his lifetime OPS versus lefties is .673, then my statement that Lopez's current .588 is due to improve against lefties is accurate, no? I didn't say Lopez would correct to a .900 OPS against lefties, just that he was underperforming at .588.

.588, .673--both are bad. And spread out over the course of the few games each year that Castro would play over Lopez, they're statistically insignificant. Certainly not large enough to warrant significant concern on this team.


And, please, tell me, do you really expect Castro to improve his OPS from where it is?

Nope, and I never said that it would. Not sure where you're getting this one.


Or is Lopez the better bet to improve his OPS from where it is?

I really don't know. Lopez isn't that young anymore, either. People tend to forget that he was a "late bloomer." I'm more of the mind that what you're seeing from Lopez over the past couple of seasons is essentially what he is. I'm not holding my breath for his epiphany on how to hit left-handed pitching.


My money would be on Lopez, but then again, I have not apparently learned to appreciate the sway that golden hands can have on my life too. I swear, he must be like a Tony Robbins informercial in the clubouse on a daily basis.

The cup of hyperbole runneth over.

toledodan
07-05-2006, 11:25 AM
If Lopez needs to sit against lefties, simply slide Phillips to SS and put Freel at 2B. There is never a need to start Castro, against anyone.

i agree 100%. i was pissed when i saw castro in the linup again yesterday. he has already had around 5 starts since coming here. i don't mind him coming in late in the game for defense but a starter no way. if lopez is having that hard of a time batting from the right side maybe he should give up switch hitting or like you said move BP to SS and put freel in at second. freel shouldn't play everyday but always should be in against left handed pitching.

OldXOhio
07-05-2006, 11:27 AM
And when, as we now see, that dream of a playoff year dwindle into oblivion go up in smoke, we're still stuck with him two more years. Whats even scarier is that the new regime, one which I thought was so much better, likes him ever so much.



I understand your frustration, but....

(a) Castro is not the reason for the recent slide. If the bullpen were better, would you be addressing this topic so vehemently?
(b) Yes FeLo belongs in the lineup everyday and twice on Sundays over Castro. I can only guess they're taking a long hard look at the lineup w/ out Lopez for a reason.
(c) I don't think it's too much to ask to allow the new regime a little more time in office before we begin undercutting them.

SteelSD
07-05-2006, 11:28 AM
I really don't know. Lopez isn't that young anymore, either. People tend to forget that he was a "late bloomer." I'm more of the mind that what you're seeing from Lopez over the past couple of seasons is essentially what he is. I'm not holding my breath for his epiphany on how to hit left-handed pitching.

Um...Lopez turned 26 years old this May 12th. He's still really young and is just about to enter his age-prime years. Plenty of opportunity left for improvement.

reds44
07-05-2006, 11:35 AM
Time for Felipe to go on the DL with an ankle injury, miss a month, and go on rehab for 2 weeks.

membengal
07-05-2006, 11:37 AM
Register wrote:

.588, .673--both are bad. And spread out over the course of the few games each year that Castro would play over Lopez, they're statistically insignificant. Certainly not large enough to warrant significant concern on this team.

Yes, both are bad, but his career .673 OPS against lefties is clearly better than anyone can reasonably expect from Castro. And, as to your assertion that it will just be a few games over the course of a year that this happens, well, that is the question right now, isn't it? Because Castro has started ahead of Lopez the last two times a lefty has been on the mound. And if this DOES evolve into a platoon situation, then it is not a statistically insignificant matter anymore.

I don't trust Narron and WK on this issue at this point, at all.

RedsManRick
07-05-2006, 11:38 AM
Freel vL 2003-2005: .802

Freel at 2B, Phillips at SS. This isn't rocket science. 5 years ago Castro was a plus defender. Now I'd be surprised if he was better than Phillips at SS.

Jpup
07-05-2006, 11:39 AM
I can't believe anyone is arguing that Juan Castro should be starting in any circumstance. :eek:

registerthis
07-05-2006, 11:42 AM
And, as to your assertion that it will just be a few games over the course of a year that this happens, well, that is the question right now, isn't it?

We have nothing but speculation to go on at this point is to how much PT Castro will receive over Lopez. I highly doubt that it will become a strictly platoon situation.

Regardless, the Castro-Lopez situation is about #11 on my list of 10 things to be concerned about with this team. Places 1-10 are occupied by the pitching staff.

Johnny Footstool
07-05-2006, 11:42 AM
As Steel said, Lopez just turned 26. Plenty of time for improvement.

The "years" his managers have allowed him to hit against major league lefties number about two. Castro has had a full major league career to prove he sucks.

registerthis
07-05-2006, 11:43 AM
I can't believe anyone is arguing that Juan Castro should be starting in any circumstance. :eek:

I don't think anyone is. I think the argument is that castro starting the occasional game doesn't harm this team as much as some here seem to think it might.

membengal
07-05-2006, 11:44 AM
We have nothing but speculation to go on at this point is to how much PT Castro will receive over Lopez. I highly doubt that it will become a strictly platoon situation.

Regardless, the Castro-Lopez situation is about #11 on my list of 10 things to be concerned about with this team. Places 1-10 are occupied by the pitching staff.

No one is arguing that the pitching has been anything other than awful. But mucking up Lopez to hand more at-bats to Castro is akin to taking a gaping wound (the pitching) and pulling it farther apart to let more blood out.

Just because the pitching has been awful doesn't mean we should ignore other stupid decisions.

And, register, it has become "more than the occasional game" in the last week. If that continues, there will be plenty of reasons to be irate. Narron misuses guys like Castro, and has since he took over. Castro should be, at most, 9th-inning-defensive-replacement guy. Not I-will-work-him-into-the-sometime-starting-assignment-role guy. And it is has drifted that direction already. Which is irritating.

Jpup
07-05-2006, 11:45 AM
I don't think anyone is. I think the argument is that castro starting the occasional game doesn't harm this team as much as some here seem to think it might.

it certainly doesn't help. right?

Puffy
07-05-2006, 11:52 AM
Castro has had a full major league career to prove he sucks.

And what a wonderful job of proving it he has done.

Now, if only some folks would stop ignoring whats right in front of them and realize that Castro has made a major league career of sucking and him on your roster is not, and never can be, a good thing.

Castro sucks - and I hear all the "why do you care who the 25th man on the roster is, blah, blah, blah." I care because having Castro on the roster tempts coaches to actually play him. 3 starts in 4 days (with no one sitting on the bench because of injuries) should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever happen.

savafan
07-05-2006, 12:05 PM
And what a wonderful job of proving it he has done.

Now, if only some folks would stop ignoring whats right in front of them and realize that Castro has made a major league career of sucking and him on your roster is not, and never can be, a good thing.

Castro sucks - and I hear all the "why do you care who the 25th man on the roster is, blah, blah, blah." I care because having Castro on the roster tempts coaches to actually play him. 3 starts in 4 days (with no one sitting on the bench because of injuries) should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever happen.

I couldn't agree more. I was offended as a ticket buyer on Saturday to have Juan Castro in the starting lineup. Those tickets were priced premium for the Indians game, there should have been a premium lineup on the field. It was bad enough that Joe Mays was starting, but to have Castro in there too was just an insult.

flyer85
07-05-2006, 12:12 PM
We have nothing but speculation to go on at this point is to how much PT Castro will receive over Lopez. I highly doubt that it will become a strictly platoon situation.yet it is a scary situation to consider.

It is interesting that the Twins, the worst defensive team in baseball(in terms of BIP converted to outs) was willing to DFA "golden hands", and this from a team that supposedly needed his defense more than the Reds. Makes you wonder anyway. BTW, the Twins have been pretty good since going exclusively with Bartlett at SS.

westofyou
07-05-2006, 12:12 PM
I couldn't agree more. I was offended as a ticket buyer on Saturday to have Juan Castro in the starting lineup.
Hi and hello from the millions of sub par players that make it to the MLB scene.

If you knew Juan Castro he'd be the best player you ever knew.

SteelSD
07-05-2006, 12:15 PM
The Juan Castro Song (sung to the tune of "The Lumberjack Song")

I'm Juan Castro and I'm ok

My offense doesn't matter anyway

Narron will put me in every second night

And I'll grab every baseball not hit to my left or right

registerthis
07-05-2006, 12:39 PM
And I'll occasionally hit a 3-run homer

Much to the chagrin of my fellow Red Zoners

;)

VR
07-05-2006, 12:55 PM
Never been a fan of Castro, but as guy #25.....

He is a great late inning defensive guy for the left side of the infield, clearly the worst defensively in the majors. He also provides a model for Lopez and Encarnacion to look at for understanding the fundamentals of their positions, something Dent hasn't been successful at.

The defensive suckitude has only been on the periphery because of the afject suckitude of the bullpen. Just as the bullpen needs to get Tom Hume's love back, so the defenders need an influence to get them better. Taking 7000 ground balls will not get you better, it will only reinforce whatever mechanics you are using. Just as Barry was influencial in that role, so too can Juan be.

Now just don't go starting him 4 days a week and expect miracles.

Heath
07-05-2006, 01:23 PM
Ironically enough, Juan Castro was first signed as insurance if Barry Larkin walked. But, thanks to Carl Lindner, we didn't need to find that out.

KronoRed
07-05-2006, 02:18 PM
Ahh memories of the 700wlw people saying we should let Larkin go cause Castro was going to be an allstar.

Not surprised at this comment, old guys = know how to win ;)

BRM
07-05-2006, 02:20 PM
Ahh memories of the 700wlw people saying we should let Larkin go cause Castro was going to be an allstar.

Not surprised at this comment, old guys = know how to win ;)

There's the solution. Bring in more old guys!!

Redsland
07-05-2006, 03:10 PM
Can't. Pittsburgh took them all.

How's that working out, by the way?

;)

lollipopcurve
07-05-2006, 03:13 PM
Hi and hello from the millions of sub par players that make it to the MLB scene.

If you knew Juan Castro he'd be the best player you ever knew.

Hallelujah -- and it wouldn't be even close.

WVRedsFan
07-05-2006, 03:13 PM
I understand your frustration, but....

(a) Castro is not the reason for the recent slide. If the bullpen were better, would you be addressing this topic so vehemently?
(b) Yes FeLo belongs in the lineup everyday and twice on Sundays over Castro. I can only guess they're taking a long hard look at the lineup w/ out Lopez for a reason.
(c) I don't think it's too much to ask to allow the new regime a little more time in office before we begin undercutting them.

(a) I agree. I also agree with the second part. I was only addressing what appears to be the philosophy of the club--where it's going.
(b)You're probably correct on this one, but to play Castro instead of Freel boggles my mind.
(c) A point well taken. No one has been more supportive of Krivsky throughout all of this and I still have faith that all of this is some master plan from which we'll see success. I just don't undertstand it right now. One more thing--I'll always question what ownership and management do. I'm not one to march along and mindlessly follow. I have concerns and I'll try to get to the bottom of the issue. Unfortunately, most (apparently) are not like me and I say good. Let me worry for you.

Roy Tucker
07-05-2006, 03:16 PM
I'm just hoping that we're seeing Narron infatuated with a new toy. And it will blow over soon. Castro should not get any starts. Period.

The Phillips to SS/Freel to 2B shift makes entirely too much sense. However, it is starting to smell like Narron/Krivsky are afraid to open the Phillips-at-SS Pandora's Box. They had enough problems with the Dunn-at-1B version.

Redsland
07-05-2006, 03:19 PM
Narron is simply benching-slash-resting Lopez through the All-Star break. Nothing more. :pray:

Ltlabner
07-05-2006, 03:35 PM
(c) A point well taken. No one has been more supportive of Krivsky throughout all of this and I still have faith that all of this is some master plan from which we'll see success. I just don't undertstand it right now. One more thing--I'll always question what ownership and management do. I'm not one to march along and mindlessly follow. I have concerns and I'll try to get to the bottom of the issue. Unfortunately, most (apparently) are not like me and I say good. Let me worry for you.

WVRedsfan, I can understand your point, and appricate your reasoned responces to this and the "EE on the DL thread". They are much more thought out than some others. Here's the part I don't get..."I'll always question what ownership and management do. I'm not one to march along and mindlessly follow".

Why is the assumption made that because I don't go balistic over every management decision I don't understand mean that I "mindlessly follow" and am nothing but some sort of robot? Could it be that I just don't invest that much energy into something that I neither (1) know everything about or (2) could change even if I did?

I honestly don't understand that. The mindset (and maybe I am missintrepreting something here) of "I'll question everything, and if I don't understand something or don't like a decision I'll blast them with both barrels". I guess I prefer to look at the total picture instead of getting worked up over a single decision or aspect of management/coaching I don't like.

Johnny Footstool
07-05-2006, 03:49 PM
WVRedsfan, I can understand your point, and appricate your reasoned responces to this and the "EE on the DL thread". They are much more thought out than some others. Here's the part I don't get..."I'll always question what ownership and management do. I'm not one to march along and mindlessly follow".

Why is the assumption made that because I don't go balistic over every management decision I don't understand mean that I "mindlessly follow" and am nothing but some sort of robot? Could it be that I just don't invest that much energy into something that I neither (1) know everything about or (2) could change even if I did?

I honestly don't understand that. The mindset (and maybe I am missintrepreting something here) of "I'll question everything, and if I don't understand something or don't like a decision I'll blast them with both barrels". I guess I prefer to look at the total picture instead of getting worked up over a single decision or aspect of management/coaching I don't like.

Really, though, most of us aren't getting worked up. It's a decision we don't agree with, and we're just posting our opinions on an internet forum. It's not like we're taking up arms or dumping tea into the river.

registerthis
07-05-2006, 03:58 PM
It's not like we're taking up arms or dumping tea into the river.

I get the feeling some people here would like to dump Castro in the river.

Ltlabner
07-05-2006, 04:02 PM
The addition of Castro gives Narron another alternative at shortstop - a sure-handed one and a right-handed-hitting one. (Lopez is hitting .209 against right-handers.) Castro makes it easier to rest Lopez, Narron said.

This is from John Fey from the Cincy Enquirer. Please note the last sentance.

BRM
07-05-2006, 04:13 PM
I get the feeling some people here would like to dump Castro in the river.

Nah, just the guy giving him playing time. ;)

Highlifeman21
07-05-2006, 04:13 PM
This whole discussion burns me up. Anyone, and I mean anyone, who would choose even playing Juan Castro over Felipe Lopez is totally insane. Castro is one guy who should be used as a defensive replacement only. The fact that he even starts a game is nearly unbelievable.

This is Jerry Narron. For all of you in love with him, these are the warts that we have to live with for two years.
And when, as we now see, that dream of a playoff year dwindle into oblivion go up in smoke, we're still stuck with him two more years. Whats even scarier is that the new regime, one which I thought was so much better, likes him ever so much.

I'd beat my head against the wall, but the last few seasons I've done it so much that it doesn't even hurt anymore.

Can't you get a cream, or maybe an antibiotic to take care of that problem?

I was also saddened by the extension of Jerry Narron. Unfortunately, he hasn't done anything to deserve the extension, let alone 2 more years. You'd think the new regime would want their own guy in there, and I can't imagine for the life of me that Jerry Narron is their guy.

GAC
07-05-2006, 06:15 PM
Register wrote:

.588, .673--both are bad. And spread out over the course of the few games each year that Castro would play over Lopez, they're statistically insignificant. Certainly not large enough to warrant significant concern on this team.

Yes, both are bad, but his career .673 OPS against lefties is clearly better than anyone can reasonably expect from Castro.

It makes Aurilia's .791 OPS look darn good! :lol:

And Rich at least has some pop in his bat (10 Hrs so far)


I don't trust Narron and WK on this issue at this point, at all.

What issue(s) do you trust them on?

Krivksy has pulled the wool over everyone'e eyes..... the signing of Castro, more playing time for RA, and EE at Louisville, has everyone more worried over this then the fact that this BP is still putrid. ;)

It's like "Wag The Dog".

Aurilia and Castro are miniscule problems IMO. Just check out our team offensive numbers, in comparison with the rest of MLB.

Our problem is pitching, pitching pitching.

And even with EE in there (and he will be back shortly ; ) ) .... can anyone show me statistically how his absence has sent this offense into a tailspin, or would have turned losses into sure victories?

And please don't give me this.... "he increases our chances".

I'm from Missouri.

In May (when he was in the lineup regularly), in MLB, we were 27th in Runs (114), 21st in OB% (.325), 23rd in SLG% (.404), 24th in OPS (.729)

In June (which EE has missed a majority of)... we were 8th in Runs (140), 7th in OB% (.345), 3rd in SLG% (.486), 4th in OPS (.841).

EE is not our savior! ;)

KronoRed
07-05-2006, 06:16 PM
I get the feeling some people here would like to dump Castro in the river.
I'll be right back.

GAC
07-05-2006, 06:20 PM
I get the feeling some people here would like to dump Castro in the river.

And face a $500 fine for polluting????

The fact is, we've did that before..... and he keeps swimming back! ;)

OldXOhio
07-05-2006, 06:37 PM
I'm just hoping that we're seeing Narron infatuated with a new toy.

What kid wouldn't want that in their Christmas stocking?

"Santa, I'd like a High School Musical DVD, a Thomas the Train set and an aged, light hitting middle IF".

membengal
07-05-2006, 08:24 PM
It makes Aurilia's .791 OPS look darn good! :lol:

And Rich at least has some pop in his bat (10 Hrs so far)



What issue(s) do you trust them on?

Krivksy has pulled the wool over everyone'e eyes..... the signing of Castro, more playing time for RA, and EE at Louisville, has everyone more worried over this then the fact that this BP is still putrid. ;)

It's like "Wag The Dog".

Aurilia and Castro are miniscule problems IMO. Just check out our team offensive numbers, in comparison with the rest of MLB.

Our problem is pitching, pitching pitching.

And even with EE in there (and he will be back shortly ; ) ) .... can anyone show me statistically how his absence has sent this offense into a tailspin, or would have turned losses into sure victories?

And please don't give me this.... "he increases our chances".

I'm from Missouri.

In May (when he was in the lineup regularly), in MLB, we were 27th in Runs (114), 21st in OB% (.325), 23rd in SLG% (.404), 24th in OPS (.729)

In June (which EE has missed a majority of)... we were 8th in Runs (140), 7th in OB% (.345), 3rd in SLG% (.486), 4th in OPS (.841).

EE is not our savior! ;)

Wow. I thought we were in the Castro thread, and you come with EE stuff here.

OK... no offense, but i WILL come at you with "he increases our chances". This team is a better team with EE up where he belongs and playing as much as possible. Period. That this team has OTHER problems, like an execrable bullpen, doesn't make the statement about EE's value untrue. There is NO GOOD REASON to keep the team in a weakened state at ANY POINT, and that is what wk and narron have done. You don't mind giving them a pass on that. I think they are acting like idiots. That's fine. We will agree to disagree. But I do plan to keep on disagreeing, despite your efforts to keep me from doing so.

redsrule2500
07-05-2006, 08:29 PM
PROJECTION: Ken Griffey Jr. missed 26 games with a strained biceps tendon in his right knee.
Factoring in that missed time, if you project his current numbers - 18 homers, 50 RBI - he would have 26 homers and 76 RBI.


too bad...:bang:

GAC
07-05-2006, 08:30 PM
But I do plan to keep on disagreeing, despite your efforts to keep me from doing so.

No one, including myself, is trying to keep you from doing anything mem.

Proving you wrong is not an effort to stop you. ;)

membengal
07-05-2006, 08:36 PM
No one, including myself, is trying to keep you from doing anything mem.

Proving you wrong is not an effort to stop you. ;)

You've proven nothing. This team's record with EE is very good. This team's record without him is very bad. I could just as easily say he clearly brings some intangible goodness to the table that the team desperately misses.

If you really think that this team is just as good with EE at AAA, then that's fine. But I don't really think you believe that. What I think is that you have drunk the Krivsky koolaid so hard that you don't question what happens at this point. I by no means am at that point with him. If he would do less damn foolish things like mothball EE, maybe I would be with you. But this is a pretty good balancer to the he-found-Phillips side of the ledger.

GAC
07-05-2006, 09:40 PM
You've proven nothing. This team's record with EE is very good. This team's record without him is very bad. I could just as easily say he clearly brings some intangible goodness to the table that the team desperately misses.

If you really think that this team is just as good with EE at AAA, then that's fine. But I don't really think you believe that. What I think is that you have drunk the Krivsky koolaid so hard that you don't question what happens at this point. I by no means am at that point with him. If he would do less damn foolish things like mothball EE, maybe I would be with you. But this is a pretty good balancer to the he-found-Phillips side of the ledger.

It has nothing to do with drinking "koolaid" my friend. I strongly questioned the Yan, Mays, and Castro acquistions.

Krivksy has done far more good then harm though.

You're all bummed out over EE, and now Krivsky can't be trusted all of a sudden.

Krivsky has been very open in weekly interviews and pre-games on EE's situation. His decisions have all been based on team medical recommendations, and not wanting to be left short-handed on the roster.

It has everything to do with not allowing my frustrations to lead me to rants that have no basis in truth/facts...


But I truly believe the first chance Narron got he was going to mothball him for Aurilia. Happily, EE was nuclear hot in the spring and limited Narron's chance to do that.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47192&page=17

And what is that "intangible goodness" he brings? You can talk up "intangibles" all you want. You can't track intangibles or show where they are positives or negatives. All one can do is throw them out there as some sort of last ditch effort of defense when they have nothing else to back up their accusations.

The reason this team is losing is because the pitching is regressing to what it should be.

EE not being here is not the reason we're losing. Terrible pitching is.

And if you can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you. ;)

If you think EE being here would help us to overcome that, then I don't know what else to say.

And I never said I was satisfied with EE at Louisville. I simply understood WHY he was there. No conspiracy... he's coming back.

Jpup
07-05-2006, 09:42 PM
It has nothing to do with drinking "koolaid" my friend. I questioned the Yan, Mays, and Castro acquistions. ;)

Krivksy has done far more good then harm though.

It has everything to do with not allowing my frustrations to lead me to rants such as what you suggested.... that Narron was looking for a reason to "mothball" EE and play RA at 3B (among other great tales of fiction). None of which you (and others) have ever offered one shred of hard facts to verify.

You can talk up "intangibles" all you want. The reason this team is losing is because the pitching is regressing to what it should be.

EE not being here is not the reason we're losing. Terrible pitching is.

And if you can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you. ;)

If you think EE being here would help us to overcome that, then I don't know what else to say.

And I never said I was satisfied with EE at Louisville. I simply understood WHY he was there. No conspiracy... he's coming back.

why was he there?

GAC
07-05-2006, 10:09 PM
why was he there?

Have you read the numerous articles that quoted the team medical staff (including Kremcheck) on EE's ankle since he hurt it?

Krivsky's decision to DL him was based solely on medical advice.

When someone shows me solid evidence that it wasn't, then I'll show doubt/skepticism.

But there are no sport med doctors on this forum who examined EE's ankle to the best of my knowldege. ;)

Jpup
07-05-2006, 10:12 PM
Have you read the numerous articles that quoted the team medical staff (including Kremcheck) on EE's ankle since he hurt it?

Krivsky's decision to DL him was based solely on medical advice.

When someone shows me solid evidence that it wasn't, then I'll show doubt/skepticism.

But there are no sport med doctors on this forum who examined EE's ankle to the best of my knowldege. ;)

he has been fine for a while. If he can play in Louisville, he can play in Cincinnati.

GAC
07-05-2006, 10:29 PM
he has been fine for a while. If he can play in Louisville, he can play in Cincinnati.

He has played 7-8 games in Louisville and has done a good job. His rehab was delayed because over a week ago the medical staff overseeing his rehab said he was having some difficulty running the bases and had a slight limp.

Once they saw the ankle was fine they wanted him to play some games down in Louisville as a precaution.

You were on the "EE TO DL" thread Jpup - all that was posted there.

When someone can show solid evidence to disprove the medical staff, and that this was some sort of "conspiracy", then I'll be glad to listen.

But I heard he's coming back tommorrow, so this is all mote IMO.

flyer85
07-05-2006, 10:32 PM
wrong thread

membengal
07-06-2006, 07:35 AM
WK lied about the ankle and its readiness to hide the difficulty he put himself in with the ill-advised (crazed) Castro pick-up in terms of roster space. He screwed up. He had no roster move to make because he values Castro out of all proportion with reality. So, EE sat in AAA, playing and playing well while WK murmured about what the docs said as cover for having no move to make to get arguably the Reds' best right-handed bat in the line-up (hell, just back to Cincy and on the roster, much less the line-up).

That he stalled long enough to keep the roster shell game alive by sending the Lizard to the minors over the break just highlights this fact. Pure screw-up by WK, all stemming from his unhealthy infatuation with Juan Castro.

Reds were 8-16 without EE. I sure am glad they dithered the last 10 days in getting him back up here so that Juan Castro could assist this team so magnificently with his skill set.

WK blew this one and blew it badly. Egregious is the word that you are looking for GAC. He has been lying and lying baldly about EE's health. That's the deal. No more, no less.

GAC
07-06-2006, 08:48 AM
WK lied about the ankle

You say you don't have it out for Narron and/or Krivsky, yet you continue to come out with simply absurd contentions without one shred of evidence to back it up. :lol:

You first stated that it was Narron's intention from the beginning to find a way to "mothball" EE so he could supplant Aurilia at 3rd. He could have done it at any time, yet EE started at 3B in 51 games.

So you gave up on that argument. ;)

Now you say that Krivsky lied, and is simply using the medical staff as a "cover".

I didn't know you were trained in sports medicine?

"I’m just going off the advice of our medical people and our training staff," Krivsky said. "They felt like it was going to at least be a week. That’s a little too long to play short (a man). If it was just the weekend, that would be a different deal. To go seven days or more, I don’t think we want to do that."

Sound logic.

Up to this stage, Krivsky has never said or done anything to be labelled, as you say, a LIAR.

And here is EE's own words on the situation....

"I thought I was going to be ready in a couple of days," he said. "They checked me yesterday and said that it was going to be (longer). I feel better. I can walk now straight. If I run, I feel the pain. Whatever they do is OK with me. I can work with my ankle. That is going to be better for me. I can be more ready."

http://www.dispatch.com/reds/reds.php?story=dispatch/2006/06/10/20060610-E7-02.html

Yet you can't accept that. There has to be more read into it.

Trainer Mark Mann, Kremcheck, and others on the medical staff, who have been in charge of EE's treatment and subsequent rehab, have all came out with weekly updates on EE's progress.

On the 20th of June, In the Cincy Enquirer, Mann stated that EE was starting to take batting practice and field balls, and was still experiencing soreness when running.

The next day, Narron publically states he hopes EE is back in the next week.

On the 25th - the Reds say they want EE to be able to run the bases without difficult on back to back days, and will begin rehab assignment in Louisville on the 27th. (makes sense since a few days earlier he couldn't run at all without pain).

He plays 6 innings on the 28th, 9 innings on the 29th.

On July 3rd, as reported by the Cincy Post, the med staff said he still has a limp from his sprained ankle, but there is a strong possibility he will return for the Atlanta series.

And so what if Krivsky is playing a "shell game" with the roster until they are absolutely certain with EE? GMs do that all the time. It doesn't point to nefarious motives. Geez!

They could have just as easily said EE isn't coming back until after the AS break. They didn't.

They obviously wanted him back up here as soon as possible (which blows holes in your previous "conspiracy theories"), because they saw where they could forestall making a roster move, and bring EE back, by having the Lizard, who isn't scheduled to pitch again until after the break, go down to AAA for a start.

Smart move IMO.

So lets see, now that EE is coming back, if your other contention about Narron wanting to "mothball" EE at 3B comes true. ;)

And Wayne is gonna then have to make a roster move.

But the contention that Castro and/or Aurilia are gonna somehow replace EE or Lopez is simply silly.

And finally - the Reds won/lose record has nothing to do with the presence and/or absence of EE.

It has everything to do with a SP implosion coupled with a lousy bullpen.

In the month of June the Reds, offensively, out-produced the previous month, and their ranking among MLB teams in every major offensive category IMPROVED.

The reason why that didn't translate into wins has nothing (or at least very minor IMO) to do with EE's absence; but EVERYTHING to do with a pitching staff that ALLOWS more runs then that scored.

EE's presence could not even overcome that run differential.

Now go ahead and twist that to mean that I think EE shouldn't be here, and should stay in AAA. ;)

RANDY IN INDY
07-06-2006, 08:49 AM
And by what facts do you know all this, membengal?

RANDY IN INDY
07-06-2006, 08:51 AM
You say you don't have it out for Narron and/or Krivsky, yet you continue to come out with simply absurd contentions without one shred of evidence to back it up. :lol:

You first stated that it was Narron's intention from the beginning to find a way to "mothball" EE so he could supplant Aurilia at 3rd. He could have done it at any time, yet EE started at 3B in 51 games.

So you gave up on that argument. ;)

Now you say that Krivsky lied, and is simply using the medical staff as a "cover".

I didn't know you were trained in sports medicine?

"I’m just going off the advice of our medical people and our training staff," Krivsky said. "They felt like it was going to at least be a week. That’s a little too long to play short (a man). If it was just the weekend, that would be a different deal. To go seven days or more, I don’t think we want to do that."

Sound logic.

Up to this stage, Krivsky has never said or done anything to be labelled, as you say, a LIAR.

And here is EE's own words on the situation....

"I thought I was going to be ready in a couple of days," he said. "They checked me yesterday and said that it was going to be (longer). I feel better. I can walk now straight. If I run, I feel the pain. Whatever they do is OK with me. I can work with my ankle. That is going to be better for me. I can be more ready."

http://www.dispatch.com/reds/reds.php?story=dispatch/2006/06/10/20060610-E7-02.html

Yet you can't accept that. There has to be more read into it.

Trainer Mark Mann, Kremcheck, and others on the medical staff, who have been in charge of EE's treatment and subsequent rehab, have all came out with weekly updates on EE's progress.

On the 20th of June, In the Cincy Enquirer, Mann stated that EE was starting to take batting practice and field balls, and was still experiencing soreness when running.

The next day, Narron publically states he hopes EE is back in the next week.

On the 25th - the Reds say they want EE to be able to run the bases without difficult on back to back days, and will begin rehab assignment in Louisville on the 27th. (makes sense since a few days earlier he couldn't run at all without pain).

He plays 6 innings on the 28th, 9 innings on the 29th.

On July 3rd, as reported by the Cincy Post, the med staff said he still has a limp from his sprained ankle, but there is a strong possibility he will return for the Atlanta series.

And so what if Krivsky is playing a "shell game" with the roster until they are absolutely certain with EE? GMs do that all the time. It doesn't point to nefarious motives. Geez!

They could have just as easily said EE isn't coming back until after the AS break. They didn't.

They obviously wanted him back up here as soon as possible (which blows holes in your previous "conspiracy theories"), because they saw where they could forestall making a roster move, and bring EE back, by having the Lizard, who isn't scheduled to pitch again until after the break, go down to AAA for a start.

Smart move IMO.

So lets see, now that EE is coming back, if your other contention about Narron wanting to "mothball" EE at 3B comes true. ;)

And Wayne is gonna then have to make a roster move.

But the contention that Castro and/or Aurilia are gonna somehow replace EE or Lopez is simply silly.

And finally - the Reds won/lose record has nothing to do with the presence and/or absence of EE.

It has everything to do with a SP implosion coupled with a lousy bullpen.

In the month of June the Reds, offensively, out-produced the previous month, and their ranking among MLB teams in every major offensive category.

The reason why that didn't translate into wins has noting to do with EE's absence; but EVERYTHING to do with a pitching staff that ALLOWS more runs then that scored.

Now go ahead and twist that to mean that I think EE shouldn't be here, and should stay in AAA. ;)

Now, quit with that "making sense" stuff that you do, GAC.;)

GAC
07-06-2006, 08:55 AM
Now, quit with that "making sense" stuff that you do, GAC.;)

I'm sorry Randy.

What a way to waste my vacation! :lol:

membengal
07-06-2006, 08:58 AM
Every single day for the past seven at least that EE played and played and played at AAA, he put a lie to WK and the docs. Those are the simple facts. He could have done that and done that well in Cincy, instead they stashed him there because they valued Castro and his place on the roster more than EE.

Every. single. day. he. played. in. Louisville. instead. of. Cincy. are. the. only. facts. you. need.

I see better than I hear. I hear the excuses and the lies. And I see what EE was doing and doing healthy.

RANDY IN INDY
07-06-2006, 09:02 AM
Every single day for the past seven at least that EE played and played and played at AAA, he put a lie to WK and the docs. Those are the simple facts. He could have done that and done that well in Cincy, instead they stashed him there because they valued Castro and his place on the roster more than EE.

Every. single. day. he. played. in. Louisville. instead. of. Cincy. are. the. only. facts. you. need.

I see better than I hear. I hear the excuses and the lies. And I see what EE was doing and doing healthy.

I must be missing something here. By the way, you were watching Louisville play those games, observing Encarnacion's game and physical condition?

membengal
07-06-2006, 09:02 AM
By the way, if that had been Aurilia, do any of you who are defending WK on this REALLY think that he would have been sent down to Louisville for an extended rehab vacation? (please remember, that when Aurilia went on the DL he came straight back to the team)

WK is treating his players differently based on how he values them. Period. And the value he puts on players like Aurilia over what EE means now and for the future makes me ill.

membengal
07-06-2006, 09:04 AM
I must be missing something here. By the way, you were watching Louisville play those games, observing Encarnacion's game and physical condition?

Gosh, do I have to be Randy? Is it not enough to read the game reports and listen to the games and observations? To have an opinion on this I need to be there every night?

I don't trust WK on this, at all, Saying I have to because he knows best won't cut it.

He's a bold-faced liar on this issue.

Here is what I could at least have respected from him, something like this:

"Hey, we are stuck for space right now and EE will spend a little extra time in Louisville while we sort it out."

Now, I would have thought him an idiot for that, but at least he would be an honest idiot. As it is, I think him a lying idiot for how this situation was assessed and handled.

RANDY IN INDY
07-06-2006, 09:05 AM
The only thing that is clear in this discussion is the axe that you are grinding concerning Krivsky and Narron.

membengal
07-06-2006, 09:09 AM
Dude, I have LIKED Wk's moves in general. Very much so. How could I not?

But does that mean I have to like ALL of them? Why does there have to be absolutes? They handled this situation deplorably. That doesn't mean that they should be gone, but I hope like hell they have learned something from this and it will not happen again. And, the bent toward vet love that each have shown worries the hell out of me. This teams future is NOT Aurilia/Castro, and this team is NOT winning anything this year. To waste a week to ten days of EE time with this team to save a place for Castro and at-bats for Aurilia was insane in both the short and long term.

Gac wrote:

And so what if Krivsky is playing a "shell game" with the roster until they are absolutely certain with EE? GMs do that all the time. It doesn't point to nefarious motives. Geez!

Response:

Because it made the team weaker for no good reason other than to hold a spot for Juan Castro. EE should not have lingered a seconds longer than necessary on the DL, and one or two starts in AAA confirmed he was good to go. His bat and his development are FAR more important to this team in the majors than Juan Castro on this roster. Period.

RFS62
07-06-2006, 09:22 AM
BEDEVERE:
What makes you think she is a witch?
VILLAGER #3:
Well, she turned me into a newt.
BEDEVERE:
A newt?
VILLAGER #3:
I got better.
VILLAGER #2:
Burn her anyway!
VILLAGER #1:
Burn!
CROWD:
Burn her! Burn! Burn her!...



http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/inlines/05_bedev.jpg

RANDY IN INDY
07-06-2006, 09:49 AM
Dude, I have LIKED Wk's moves in general. Very much so. How could I not?

But does that mean I have to like ALL of them? Why does there have to be absolutes? They handled this situation deplorably. That doesn't mean that they should be gone, but I hope like hell they have learned something from this and it will not happen again. And, the bent toward vet love that each have shown worries the hell out of me. This teams future is NOT Aurilia/Castro, and this team is NOT winning anything this year. To waste a week to ten days of EE time with this team to save a place for Castro and at-bats for Aurilia was insane in both the short and long term.

Gac wrote:

And so what if Krivsky is playing a "shell game" with the roster until they are absolutely certain with EE? GMs do that all the time. It doesn't point to nefarious motives. Geez!

Response:

Because it made the team weaker for no good reason other than to hold a spot for Juan Castro. EE should not have lingered a seconds longer than necessary on the DL, and one or two starts in AAA confirmed he was good to go. His bat and his development are FAR more important to this team in the majors than Juan Castro on this roster. Period.

I don't understand your logic. In one breath, you are spouting that the team is not winning anything this year, and then complaining that having Encarnacion for any seconds longer than necessary is making the team weaker???? What difference does it make if they are not winning this year? I would think that you would be more concerned about the overall longterm health of the player than you would rushing him back for no reason.

The thing that you are not taking into consideration is that you don't know what deals are on the horizon and how that might influence the moves that Krivsky is making at any time. You, simply, don't know what is going on in the front office.

As far as Edwin Encarnacion, I highly doubt that the few extra days that he spent in AAA on rehab are going to negatively impact his development.

membengal
07-06-2006, 09:57 AM
Randy, perhaps you will be proved correct and WK will get some mega deal done over the break. Dunno.

EE's place in the future of this franchise should be a foremost consideration. That means he needs to be in Cincy, getting his at-bats and improving on a daily basis. Not in Louisville. And not there one day longer than necessary. If this team has any chance at all of staying within shouting distance of relevance (something I doubt), it will be because he is up and playing, among other things. Just because this team likely isn't going anywhere doesn't mean that I don't want to see the best players this organization has to offer on the field at all times. EE not being here weakened this team. I don't think any of you are disputing that. If so, then he should not have been gone one second longer than necessary, and certainly not to ease a roster crunch brought about by the acquisition of Juan Castro.

You play these kinds of roster games with the end of your roster, not with a guy who might have had a chance at All-Star consideration had he not gotten hurt. It bothers me that they did this kind of thing with a talent like EE. It doesn't bother others. That's fine. It is what it is. But I am still not happy with how it was handled. Nothing is really going to change that.

RANDY IN INDY
07-06-2006, 10:08 AM
If Encarnacion is to be a cornerstone of this organization, his health should be priority #1. Everyone wants to see the best players playing at all times, but that is, unfortunately, not realistic with the injuries that are bound to occur from time to time in professional sports. You have to be able to cover those injuries which is always hard for small market teams. Personally, I think the Reds have done OK covering Encarnacion's absence.

As far as the team staying in contention, it will be because of the acquisition of better pitching, the improved performance of the pitching that it has in place, and better overall defense.

Offense has not been the problem with this ballclub. I don't think anyone will tell you that it has been.

Jpup
07-06-2006, 11:09 AM
Offense has not been the problem with this ballclub. I don't think anyone will tell you that it has been.

too many homeruns and not enough productive outs. it's the little things. ;)

RANDY IN INDY
07-06-2006, 11:15 AM
I was looking at your avatar, Jpup. Sarasota has the sleeves thing right. Red looks so much better than black with that sleeveless road uniform.

Jpup
07-06-2006, 11:19 AM
I was looking at your avatar, Jpup. Sarasota has the sleeves thing right. Red looks so much better than black with that sleeveless road uniform.

I agree.:thumbup:

Big Klu
07-06-2006, 11:33 AM
Medical rehabs should be banned. If you are on the DL, then you are unable to play. Case closed.

There. That should prevent any future problems. ;)

Ltlabner
07-06-2006, 04:06 PM
WK is treating his players differently based on how he values them. Period. And the value he puts on players like Aurilia over what EE means now and for the future makes me ill.

So I guess when JR dissapeared into a black hole earlier this year it was because WK doesn't value him?


If this team has any chance at all of staying within shouting distance of relevance (something I doubt), it will be because he is up and playing,among other things

Hahahaha...yea that bullpen and starting pitching certinally qualify as "other things" in the grand scope of the Red's success.


The thing that you are not taking into consideration is that you don't know what deals are on the horizon and how that might influence the moves that Krivsky is making at any time. You, simply, don't know what is going on in the front office.

Exactly....yet some persist in acting as if they do. You can guess, deduce and play Columbo all you want. The fact remains that none of us really know what goes on behind the sceens.


Encarnacion will rejoin the Reds after missing nearly a month with a sprained left ankle. When he does, Krivsky emphasized Wednesday, he will be playing third base. The question arose after Encarnacion started at first base Monday and Tuesday for the Bats, but Krivsky said not to read anything into it. "It's just an opportunity to see what he looks like over there and give him some exposure at another position," said Krivsky. "We're not looking at him to be our first baseman. When he comes back, it's playing third."

That's from Marc Lancaster at cincypost.com. So I guess The Kriv is contiuing his campaign of lies about EE? I mean, the claim has been levied that Castro and/or RA are going to get all of EE's playing time. Yet, here's the man himself making it clear as day that he thinks EE is the 3B man. Now, if after 4 weeks of his return he's still riding the pine, or only plays a few games then I'll bite on the idea that Narron want's someone else at 3B. Until there is proof of this beyond wild speculation there's no sense getting the blood pressure up over it.

And speaking of Juan Castro....hahahaha...Didn't Narron say somewhere that he was just using him to rest guys going into the all-star break? I'll have to go find that. Now, if he continues to find a way into the starting line up after the ASB then I'd serrriously question Narron's reasoning.

membengal
07-06-2006, 05:44 PM
I am glad to hear it from WK, I will now wait to see it, like I said, I see better than I hear.

No, Jr. did NOT go to a rehab, he came straight back to the line-up when he was ready to go. You know that.

You think WK is blameless on the EE thing, I don't. That's fine. Again, we agree to disagree. Nothing right now will change that. Juan Castro's spot on this team caused EE to spend an extra 7-10 days in the minors he didn't need. That should never have happened. You don't agree.

But, I don't understand your vehement defense of WK either. For the good moves he's made, he still has not earned that level of trust with me either. Again, if that was Aurilia coming off the DL (or Jr), they don't get sent on that enforced rehab time. Different rules for different players based on vet-ness apparently. I am NOT fine with that, certainly not when it comes to Aurilia and EE at any rate...

Oh, and thanks for the partronizing reference to blood pressure. I thought this was a board to discuss Reds and Reds related moves. I didn't realize I had to agree with ltl or risk getting condescended to as a part of the discussion. The things I have learned in the last little bit from you and GAC are very helpful. It's nice to know the unwritten rules for the place. Thanks.

Big Klu
07-06-2006, 05:48 PM
I'm not 100% sure, but I think players that have a certain amount of service time have the right to refuse a rehab assignment to the minors.

membengal
07-06-2006, 05:49 PM
Klu...thanks for that, yeah, now that you mention it, that may be right. And that may explain the Aurilia thing, at any rate.

Ltlabner
07-06-2006, 05:59 PM
But, I don't understand your vehement defense of WK either.

For the 1,000,000 time...I am not defending WK. I am not saying EE was or wasn't bashished to Louisville. All I am saying is that you DO NOT KNOW THE REAL REASON HE WAS DOWN THERE. That's it. Plain and simple. You can go on and on about how Kriv lied, and got stuck, and whatever but at the end of the day you have no evidence other than your speculations.


I thought this was a board to discuss Reds and Reds related moves.

And again, it is. Please quote for me where I said, "you can't issue your opinions here". You made an assertion. I countered that assertion. You countered with more assertion. I made more counter-points and so on. That's the internet version of a "discussion" unless I am mistaken. Seems to me we are doing the very thing you think should be going on here. So what's the problem then? That I dissagree with you?

membengal
07-06-2006, 06:11 PM
Disagreement would be fine. But you are not really doing that. You are hiding behind "you can't really know the real reason so why talk about it". Well, gee, when do any of us ever really know the REAL REASON for any moves that a front office makes. I would think commentary on what we observe is fair game without a standard of knowing to an absolute certainty what WK et al are thinking.

Since I can never really know a real reason for why they do what they do, I will make guesses based on how things play out. EDITED OUT for peace purposes.

Disagreements are fine, ltl. We are in a different place on this. That's fine. Hopefully you are right and EE is rock solid on this team. I just am not quite as certain of that as I want to be.

GAC
07-06-2006, 06:36 PM
Every single day for the past seven at least that EE played and played and played at AAA, he put a lie to WK and the docs. Those are the simple facts. He could have done that and done that well in Cincy, instead they stashed him there because they valued Castro and his place on the roster more than EE.

Every. single. day. he. played. in. Louisville. instead. of. Cincy. are. the. only. facts. you. need.

I see better than I hear. I hear the excuses and the lies. And I see what EE was doing and doing healthy.

Not. when. the. reason. they. openly. said. he. was. still. there. was. precautionary. and. to. get. AB's.

how. is. that. lying. again? ;)

GAC
07-06-2006, 06:38 PM
Medical rehabs should be banned. If you are on the DL, then you are unable to play. Case closed.

There. That should prevent any future problems. ;)

How does a pitcher then strengthen/ rehab his recontructed shoulder? ;)

GAC
07-06-2006, 07:10 PM
I am glad to hear it from WK, I will now wait to see it, like I said, I see better than I hear.

No, Jr. did NOT go to a rehab, he came straight back to the line-up when he was ready to go. You know that.

Jr was placed on the 15 DL (like EE) earlier with a strained right tendon in his knee. Yet he ended up missing 26 games while rehabing in Cincy at GAB. he was daily running drills, taking batting practice, and looking pretty fit (according to media reports), while everyone was asking "What's going on? Why isn't he playing? We need him!"

And Krivsky, going on the medical staffs evaluation, said it was solely precautionary, and they wanted Jr to be 100% before returning.

Similar to EE's situation.

Yes- they treat seasoned and experienced vets, who have proven themselves, differently then as compared to an inexperiened and yet to be proven rookie.

That's just the way it is. No conspiracy. In certain situations, vets have earned that privilege.


I thought this was a board to discuss Reds and Reds related moves.

It is.

Don't take disagreement so personal mem.

What amazes me on here - and I'm no know-it-all - is that I think fans really get themselves all worked up, and bent out of shape, over situations that really don't justifiy it IMO.

When I hear guys wanting to go outside and scream, or pull their hair out or put their fist through a wall - and all over Narron's lineups, or this BP's lousy peformance, or whatever - then it's just my personal opinion that they take this game way too seriously.

It seems that it's no longer enjoyment, but an obsession. Maybe I'm wrong.

You need to take a break from them gamethreads, come into chat, take your shoes off, grab a couple brewskies. It's a completely different atmosphere.

You are more then welcome. ;)

Big Klu
07-06-2006, 07:17 PM
How does a pitcher then strengthen/ rehab his recontructed shoulder? ;)

Throwing on the side, man, throwing on the side. ;)

GAC
07-07-2006, 06:56 AM
Throwing on the side, man, throwing on the side. ;)

That true Klu (Hey! that rhythms!).... but at some stage you have to throw simulated games, and then vs hitters for it to be a viable test of one's rehab and readiness. ;)

I hear Wilson is getting really close.... but until he shows me he can consistently perfrom vs batters in AA/AAA - I wouldn't ever think of handing him the ball.

I have huge doubts in handing him the ball period! :lol:

membengal
07-07-2006, 07:00 AM
Jr was placed on the 15 DL (like EE) earlier with a strained right tendon in his knee. Yet he ended up missing 26 games while rehabing in Cincy at GAB. he was daily running drills, taking batting practice, and looking pretty fit (according to media reports), while everyone was asking "What's going on? Why isn't he playing? We need him!"

And Krivsky, going on the medical staffs evaluation, said it was solely precautionary, and they wanted Jr to be 100% before returning.

Similar to EE's situation.

Yes- they treat seasoned and experienced vets, who have proven themselves, differently then as compared to an inexperiened and yet to be proven rookie.

That's just the way it is. No conspiracy. In certain situations, vets have earned that privilege.



It is.

Don't take disagreement so personal mem.

What amazes me on here - and I'm no know-it-all - is that I think fans really get themselves all worked up, and bent out of shape, over situations that really don't justifiy it IMO.

When I hear guys wanting to go outside and scream, or pull their hair out or put their fist through a wall - and all over Narron's lineups, or this BP's lousy peformance, or whatever - then it's just my personal opinion that they take this game way too seriously.

It seems that it's no longer enjoyment, but an obsession. Maybe I'm wrong.

You need to take a break from them gamethreads, come into chat, take your shoes off, grab a couple brewskies. It's a completely different atmosphere.

You are more then welcome. ;)

I keep trying to let it lay there, and you keep posting.

Why do you presume that the disagreement is "being taken too seriously or personally"? Who made you an arbiter of my mood from a keyboard in Memphis?

As I said when ltl arrived at our agree to disagree point, I hope he is right and EE is a fixture, errors and all, and 3b from here on out. We will see.

But nothing you say will make me trust WK fully yet, and nothing I say will convince you not to trust him yet. You are fine with the vet deference. I am not. Not when the vets getting the deference are Rich Aurilia and Juan Castro and David Weathers. Why does that mean I, or anyone else, is worked up? People can be critical without being worked up, you know. Happens all the time. By the way, your post #88 up there? He was in Louisiville as a precaution AND to get at-bats? A precaution as to what exactly? Keeping Aurilia and Castro from at-bats? A precaution from WK having to deal with the roster ooopsie he made with the Castro acquisition? Because it wasn't a precaution as to EE's ankle after the first game or two. If the man could play there 9 straight games, he could have played in Cincy 9 straight games. (Now, as I type that, am I screaming aloud and sacrificing small animals in my anger? Or am I sitting, quietly, and using fingers to type on a keyboard while noting my disagreement? Could go either way...) My mention that this IS a Reds board for Reds related chatter isn't me taking it personally, it's a genuine query as to why you or anyone else feels the need to inject "perspective" into the deal. Yes, it's just sports and just a game. I think we all kinda know that. But, its of an interest to us and worth talking about. Being told in various ways that one is "taking things too seriously" is annoying as hell, particularly when it is tossed into an ongoing discussion in some kind of high-handed attempt to cut off the disucssion.

And, no offense, I tried Game Chat once, and felt like I had walked in on a private conversation where I was most certainly not welcome. So...the occasional comment on a Game Thread is plenty for me.

Jpup
07-07-2006, 07:05 AM
I'm not 100% sure, but I think players that have a certain amount of service time have the right to refuse a rehab assignment to the minors.

I don't believe that is the case.

Cyclone792
07-07-2006, 07:29 AM
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/356/motivator91c8b89efa0bb99436650.jpg

membengal
07-07-2006, 07:31 AM
See GAC, if I was as deft and clever as cyclone, I would have done something like that three pages ago.

Funny as hell.

KronoRed
07-07-2006, 03:23 PM
Nice work Cyclone :clap:

GAC
07-07-2006, 04:37 PM
See GAC, if I was as deft and clever as cyclone, I would have done something like that three pages ago.

Funny as hell.

Yes, it is hilarious. :lol:

Unfortunately, IMO, its not true.

No veteran on this team, in either RA or Castro, has displaced or taken the starting role from a young player.



I keep trying to let it lay there, and you keep posting.

So? Who made you moderator?

If it bothers you that much (me responding).... then simply walk away or use the IGNORE feature.

No one is forcing you to read what I post, or to respond.


Why do you presume that the disagreement is "being taken too seriously or personally"? Who made you an arbiter of my mood from a keyboard in Memphis?

The statement was made in a generalized sense, concerning the attitude of some who take things so seriously on here, and was not posted to single you out.

Maybe you need to do like I, and many do, when they feel a subject/thread has run it's course, and further discussion/input is not going to solve anything?.... no longer post there (like I did with the EE to DL thread).


Being told in various ways that one is "taking things too seriously" is annoying as hell, particularly when it is tossed into an ongoing discussion in some kind of high-handed attempt to cut off the disucssion.

There you go again - thinking that simply because I, or anyone else, disagrees with you OR simply offers their own opinion into the matter at hand, you see that as a high-handed attempt to cut off the discussion.

Has it? No one is attempting to cut off the discussion nor prevent you from airing your grievances concerning this team/management.

Have at it.

But I guess people should be warned with a disclaimer that if they strongly disagree with you it's an attempt to censor you.


And, no offense, I tried Game Chat once, and felt like I had walked in on a private conversation where I was most certainly not welcome.

You tried to one time? Most of the people that now come into chat are all newcomers to the forum and perfect strangers to one another. And in all the years I've been using chat, not once was anyone ever made to feel not welcome - but just the opposite, so I'm sorry you feel that way. To each his own I guess.

Chip R
07-07-2006, 04:59 PM
:deadhorse

GAC
07-07-2006, 05:16 PM
:deadhorse

You're the one who started this "blankety-blank" thread and put the bug in everyone's ear of Castro getting more playing time over Felipe!

It's your fault the sky is falling!

Wait till I see you Sunday! :lol: :lol: :lol:

membengal
07-08-2006, 09:57 AM
So, everyone excited about five starts in eight days for Castro? The development of a platoon at SS? Good times! Good times!

Good lord.

westofyou
07-08-2006, 10:58 AM
So, everyone excited about five starts in eight days for Castro? The development of a platoon at SS? Good times! Good times!

Good lord.
Platoon?

Nah..... when the Reds fall out of it, don't be surprised when Lopez is flipped and Castro plays SS the rest of the year.

Then next year there will be a new SS.

That's my prediction.

Jpup
07-08-2006, 11:02 AM
Platoon?

Nah..... when the Reds fall out of it, don't be surprised when Lopez is flipped and Castro plays SS the rest of the year.

Then next year there will be a new SS.

That's my prediction.

my thoughts as well.

chicoruiz
07-08-2006, 11:36 AM
A few years ago there was a movie out called "The Last Dragon". I forget who was in it, besides Prince's former sidekick Vanity (who was pretty hard to forget), but it was kind of a black-exploitation/martial arts/comedy thing, and even though it was a bad movie, I watched it all the time and I still watch it when it shows up on TV. It's one of my "guilty pleasures".

Anyway, on the Reds, Juan Castro is my guilty pleasure.

I know. I know he's a pathetic ofensive player, and I'm even willing to believe he's overrated defensively, just like I knew "The Last Dragon" was a bad movie. But I don't care. It just seems like four out of five games I watch him in he does something that makes me go, "hey, that was pretty cool". That doesn't mean he's a good player, and it certainly doesn't mean he should be starting. But dang, for some reason I just enjoy watching the guy play. To me, he seems like he has an idea of what to do out there, which is more than I can say about many of his more talented teammates.

There, I've said it. I fully expect to be driven from the herd now, to be left to fend for myself in the wilderness.

MWM
07-08-2006, 11:41 AM
Who's the master?

'Sho 'nough!

Unfortunatley, Castro is no Bruce Leroy. But who knows, maybe he'll find the glow in the second half.

:D

RFS62
07-08-2006, 12:00 PM
What are Castro's numbers so far as a Red this year?

RANDY IN INDY
07-08-2006, 02:48 PM
When Castro has played, I haven't noticed that he has hurt the Reds. I don't think he is an everyday player, but I also haven't noticed that he has played badly when given the chance.

RFS62
07-08-2006, 03:07 PM
When Castro has played, I haven't noticed that he has hurt the Reds. I don't think he is an everyday player, but I also haven't noticed that he has played badly when given the chance.



You are correct, sir.

Batting average / OBP .323 *snortle*
Slugging percentage .484 *egad*
OPS .807 *gadzooks*


I don't want him as an everyday player either, but he most certainly hasn't hurt us since he came back. Other than Puffy. He's disconsolent, inconsolable, and spending a lot of time taking out injunctions and pursuing legal action against Krivsky for this unforgivable course of action.

membengal
07-08-2006, 03:10 PM
There is simply no excuse for giving Castro this kind of playing time for any team, much less at the expense of players 8-10 years younger than him who should be trying to get to a peak that he never came within five hundred miles of reaching himself. It's profoundly stupid of the organization.

KronoRed
07-08-2006, 03:59 PM
Castro should start as often as Q did..once or twice a month

Puffy
07-08-2006, 04:17 PM
You are correct, sir.

Batting average / OBP .323 *snortle*
Slugging percentage .484 *egad*
OPS .807 *gadzooks*


I don't want him as an everyday player either, but he most certainly hasn't hurt us since he came back. Other than Puffy. He's disconsolent, inconsolable, and spending a lot of time taking out injunctions and pursuing legal action against Krivsky for this unforgivable course of action.

Exactly the problem - as Raisor put it yesterday Castro goes thru times when he forgets he's Juan Castro. But he always remembers and then its a train wreck offensively. And him playing well now keeps up the illusion that he is an OK player and then he gets more and more PT.

As I've repeatedly said, having Castro on the roster with a manager like Narron (or Boone or Miley or Gene Mauch) is dangerous b/c that means they will play Juan Castro.

RFS62
07-08-2006, 04:28 PM
So, I guess the selfish bastard should have stunk up the joint so all you guys who hate him so badly could be right 100% of the time?

Puffy
07-08-2006, 04:31 PM
yes.

membengal
07-08-2006, 04:32 PM
That he has been better than execrable for a change doesn't EVER justify giving him signicant at-bats. It won't last. It never does. He's old. He's blocking the progress of players that have a chance to be something. He's everything that a bad organization embraces.

Sure, I am glad that he hasn't been awful so far. But it's fool's gold. Lightning in a bottle. Britney Spears' career. It's a fake.

RANDY IN INDY
07-08-2006, 06:00 PM
So, I guess the selfish bastard should have stunk up the joint so all you guys who hate him so badly could be right 100% of the time?

Exactly:beerme:

SteelSD
07-08-2006, 07:13 PM
When Castro has played, I haven't noticed that he has hurt the Reds. I don't think he is an everyday player, but I also haven't noticed that he has played badly when given the chance.

Didja' sleep from 2001 straight through 2004? If not, there's no way you couldn't have noticed Juan Castro playing badly.

The concept that playing Juan Castro consistently is ok because he hasn't hurt the 2006 Reds yet doesn't make any sense. Juan Castro has hurt every team he's ever played with- including the Reds. Just because he hasn't done it to the 2006 Reds yet is irrelevant because he's bound to do it eventually. We know this because it's all he's ever done.

RANDY IN INDY
07-08-2006, 09:09 PM
Nice to know your breathing, Steel.

Puffy
07-08-2006, 09:20 PM
Didja' sleep from 2001 straight through 2004? If not, there's no way you couldn't have noticed Juan Castro playing badly.

The concept that playing Juan Castro consistently is ok because he hasn't hurt the 2006 Reds yet doesn't make any sense. Juan Castro has hurt every team he's ever played with- including the Reds. Just because he hasn't done it to the 2006 Reds yet is irrelevant because he's bound to do it eventually. We know this because it's all he's ever done.

Exactly :beerme:

RANDY IN INDY
07-08-2006, 09:24 PM
And the admiration society is breathin' as well.;)

KronoRed
07-08-2006, 10:45 PM
I want Steel to be the GM :evil:

SteelSD
07-08-2006, 11:57 PM
Nice to know your breathing, Steel.

Been breathing the whole time, Randy. Have a few neurons firing as well.


And the admiration society is breathin' as well.;)

Nice rebuttal. Gotta be careful with that wink smiley though, Randy. Use it too often or in the wrong place and folks might think you're not joking.

And I don't think you're joking. Please feel free to correct me on that.

GAC
07-09-2006, 07:09 AM
"I'm with you fellers!" :lol:

http://www.the-trades.com/akeen/tim.jpg

GAC
07-09-2006, 07:31 AM
Our shoddy defense is one of the problem areas on this year's team.

Who are the error leaders (espeically in the INF)?

I personally believe, and always have, that the younger guys (EE and Lopez) should be the starters (and they have been the vast majority of the time), and we simply "take our lumps" while they learn/mature.

We, as fans, can't have it both ways. If you have no problem with the errors and sometimes poor fielding decisions, while these guys learn, then so be it.

But it has, and will continue, to cost us games.... PERIOD!

And if you are fine with that (and I am), while they learn, then again, so be it.

Narron - and I do not agree with him, but try to understand what he is trying to do as a manager - is to somehow try to accomplish several objectives.... 1) give these younger guys the majority of the playing time so they learn/develop, and 2) periodic substitutions with guys like Freel, RA, Castro to - #1 get them playing time and keep them happy, and possibly "minimize" the situations (defensively) that cost us games.

I have always advocated a set lineup. You put your best 8 out there, and as the game situations dictate you make substitutions.

Unfortunately with this year's team, the best 8 have not always shown themselves.

Narron does not believe in that. And this is one area where I have always disagreed with him on.

I do not think he has it in for kids like EE and/or Lopez. But on the the hand, they have not shown the consistency that most managers like to see out of young players.

And again - their inconsistency has cost us games.

And in this particular situation, I want to fault Krivsky MORE then Narron. Wayne is the one who went out and got a guy like Castro that has "muddied" the waters. Yet he said it was to simply give Lopez days off.

Yet Narron seems to be giving Lopez and EE (since he has been back) alot of days off (more than I can even handle).

I'm just kinda sitting back and watching how the second half goes with this situation.

RA needs to be back in his platoon position with Hat at 1B. And Freel should be used off the bench more regularly to give EE a break. And Castro should be used (yet less frequently) for the same with Lopez.

But it ain't gonna happen because Mr. Nice Guy likes to give all his players playing time. ;)

membengal
07-09-2006, 07:34 AM
Wow. Welcome to the dark side, GAC. You and I are not far apart at all on this after all.

You suffer through the errors because eventually it will get better. Oh, and because their ginormous bats more than make up for any growing pains.

GAC
07-09-2006, 08:07 AM
Wow. Welcome to the dark side, GAC. You and I are not far apart at all on this after all.

I've never considered that position (which I have always held) to be the "dark side". ;)

What I have always disagreed with, over the past week or so, is this contention by some that there is a "conspiracy" afoot (by Narron) to supplant EE and/or Lopez with veteran presence.

Sure - Narron (and any manager for that matter) is gonna feel more comfortable with veteran guys who have, to some extent, a proven track record over young, unproven rookies/players.

But that is simply the natural inclination to do so.

But EE and Lopez have gotten the vast majority of the playing time at their respective positions.

As to what is gonna happen in the second half, and with the addition of Castro, I am not gonna speculate or go off the deep end with rash accusations.

I'll wait and see first.

When Narron deserves it.... he has gotten it from me in the past. ;)

RANDY IN INDY
07-09-2006, 08:09 AM
Been breathing the whole time, Randy. Have a few neurons firing as well.



Nice rebuttal. Gotta be careful with that wink smiley though, Randy. Use it too often or in the wrong place and folks might think you're not joking.

And I don't think you're joking. Please feel free to correct me on that.

You know I'm joking, Steel. (Tempted to use the winky there, just to mess with you again, but I won't.) You and a I have a long history here, PM's and all, and I would hope that we know where each other stands.


Sometimes, I don't feel the need to get into a long winded exchange to no where with you over an issue as silly as this one. I don't advocate Castro getting anything but token starts, but in small doses and in the right places, he can be of use to this team.

GAC
07-09-2006, 08:21 AM
I don't advocate Castro getting anything but token starts, but in small doses and in the right places, he can be of use to this team.

And I feel that is most people's attitude too Randy. Yet some want to get really upset whenever they see him at anytime in that lineup. ;)

membengal
07-09-2006, 08:25 AM
Or at least, ya know, three times in four days and five in eight days...

RANDY IN INDY
07-09-2006, 08:51 AM
No matter what sport, the bench is the coach's best friend. Be it to get a point across or to rest a weary player during a long season to keep him fresh over the long haul. I don't think a lot of people realize what a physical and mental struggle that 162 games presents. The travel, the heat, the mental exhaustion at times. We all would like to see what we perceive as the best 8 playing every day, but it isn't feasible or recommended for some players. A break is sometimes the best thing for a player, both physically and mentally. At some point, you have to trust the manager and not your own speculation. Ultimately, if he makes too many of the wrong decisions, he will pay the price. I think Narron has done a real good job this season with the hand he has been dealt. The naysayers didn't have this team anywhere near where it is right now.

Ltlabner
07-09-2006, 09:03 AM
Or at least, ya know, three times in four days and five in eight days...

Just prior to the ASB, to give guys some more rest. And possibly to make a point about throwing errors....

membengal
07-09-2006, 09:10 AM
If you mean me as a naysayer, randy, I predicted them for 81-81, so they are pretty much level par right now from what I expected.

westofyou
07-09-2006, 11:28 AM
I don't think a lot of people realize what a physical and mental struggle that 162 games presents.

No they don't. Most think it's a simple summer game with no pressures that are greater then their own pager and appointment needs.

That in itself cracks me up.

MWM
07-09-2006, 11:30 AM
No they don't. Most think it's a simple summer game with no pressures that are greater then their own pager and appointment needs.

That in itself cracks me up.

So true. Or they think because they make a lot of money they should be above such mental or physical exhaustion.

Tony Cloninger
07-09-2006, 11:55 AM
I do not think utility players have been tolerated at all around here.

Luis Quinones was a Juan Castro clone. Was he blocking anybody?
Did he play more than he had to?

If Castro (barring injuries) makes a start at SS and 3B each once every ten games, will that be enough for some?

A bench player, especially one with a decent glove like Castro, still needs at least 1 start a week to keep sharp. I do not think it is feasible to expect him to sit on the bench and play only 1-2 times a month.

I can understand the frustration recently with this whole EE thing.....just like when Boone was jerking around with Dunn durings his struggles a few years back. But the constant rolling of the eyes whenever a bench player, in general comes to PH or goes out as a defensive replacement...or the thanks Jerry, fill in the blank could have done that... how does that not get annoying?

SteelSD
07-09-2006, 11:58 AM
No matter what sport, the bench is the coach's best friend. Be it to get a point across or to rest a weary player during a long season to keep him fresh over the long haul. I don't think a lot of people realize what a physical and mental struggle that 162 games presents. The travel, the heat, the mental exhaustion at times. We all would like to see what we perceive as the best 8 playing every day, but it isn't feasible or recommended for some players. A break is sometimes the best thing for a player, both physically and mentally. At some point, you have to trust the manager and not your own speculation. Ultimately, if he makes too many of the wrong decisions, he will pay the price. I think Narron has done a real good job this season with the hand he has been dealt. The naysayers didn't have this team anywhere near where it is right now.

The bench can be a great asset. Problem is that a Juan Castro has one actual tool right now- the ability to catch baseballs hit directly at him. If he could actually provide anything resembling real range, he'd be a decent defensive replacement and someone I wouldn't mind handing a start every two weeks when someone needed to be rested during a stretch in which the Reds had no off days. But he's not that guy. Furthermore, Narron's been using him to "rest" Lopez coming into the All-Star break; which is nothing but off days. Actually targetting a replacement-level player for acquisition is bad enough. But playing him consistently? Ugh.

And no, I don't have to "trust" Jerry Narron because Jerry Narron hasn't earned it. And I refuse the use the excuse that Narron has to play the hand he's dealt because a MLB manager helps dictate the composition of that hand. As for actually playing said hand, Narron's figured out that Dunn in the two hole is good. Good for him. But we're still waiting for the second stroke of genius and we've had long enough to understand his predilections pertaining to veteran players and the value of reputation versus performance.

And as far as "the naysayers", I projected 78-84 for the 2006 version of the Reds. Their current pythag projection is 79-83. Ain't nothin' happening with the Reds W/L record that I didn't expect.

westofyou
07-09-2006, 12:00 PM
I do not think utility players have been tolerated at all around here.

Exactly... the premise that the end of the bench isn't going to be used ignores so many unknown factors that it's really a peeing in the wind type of reaction.

Currently the Reds manager (again) is a former Mauch player, if you don't factor that part of his career into your assumptions about his mangerial style then you're failing to see who Jerry really is.

RFS62
07-09-2006, 12:08 PM
Currently the Reds manager (again) is a former Mauch player, if you don't factor that part of his career into your assumptions about his mangerial style then you're failing to see who Jerry really is.


"I want everybody to feel he has a chance to get into a game when he comes to the ballpark. I play guys when I want to so they'll be ready when I have to. I don't consider myself a motivator of players. I think it's an insult to a ballplayer to have to be motivated." - Gene Mauch

Big Klu
07-09-2006, 12:49 PM
"I want everybody to feel he has a chance to get into a game when he comes to the ballpark. I play guys when I want to so they'll be ready when I have to. I don't consider myself a motivator of players. I think it's an insult to a ballplayer to have to be motivated." - Gene Mauch

If people really think about it, Lou Piniella did the exact same thing in 1990. I'm sure a lot of folks here on Redszone would have been bellyaching over the amount of playing time that Jeff Reed, Herm Winningham, Luis Quiñones, Ron Oester, and Todd Benzinger got.

RANDY IN INDY
07-09-2006, 12:57 PM
The bench can be a great asset. Problem is that a Juan Castro has one actual tool right now- the ability to catch baseballs hit directly at him. If he could actually provide anything resembling real range, he'd be a decent defensive replacement and someone I wouldn't mind handing a start every two weeks when someone needed to be rested during a stretch in which the Reds had no off days. But he's not that guy. Furthermore, Narron's been using him to "rest" Lopez coming into the All-Star break; which is nothing but off days. Actually targetting a replacement-level player for acquisition is bad enough. But playing him consistently? Ugh.

And no, I don't have to "trust" Jerry Narron because Jerry Narron hasn't earned it. And I refuse the use the excuse that Narron has to play the hand he's dealt because a MLB manager helps dictate the composition of that hand. As for actually playing said hand, Narron's figured out that Dunn in the two hole is good. Good for him. But we're still waiting for the second stroke of genius and we've had long enough to understand his predilections pertaining to veteran players and the value of reputation versus performance.

And as far as "the naysayers", I projected 78-84 for the 2006 version of the Reds. Their current pythag projection is 79-83. Ain't nothin' happening with the Reds W/L record that I didn't expect.

I'll dignify that with what it deserves.......................................... ........

SteelSD
07-09-2006, 01:37 PM
I'll dignify that with what it deserves.......................................... ........

Predictable.

RANDY IN INDY
07-09-2006, 01:39 PM
Predictable.

As are you. At least we have something in common.:p:

SteelSD
07-09-2006, 01:46 PM
As are you. At least we have something in common.:p:

Great. The "I know you are but what am I?" retort. Skillfully done.

I'll wait patiently for "Liar, liar, pants on fire."

ochre
07-09-2006, 01:56 PM
I think this topic has exhausted itself.