PDA

View Full Version : Reds acquire Guardado



BrooklynRedz
07-06-2006, 02:35 PM
for Chick.

Falls City Beer
07-06-2006, 02:37 PM
Retirement Village.

Reds Nd2
07-06-2006, 02:38 PM
Eddie Guardado?

redsfan30
07-06-2006, 02:38 PM
Everyday Eddie?

Joseph
07-06-2006, 02:39 PM
What's his age, stats, info in general?

registerthis
07-06-2006, 02:40 PM
1.74 WHIP
8 HRs in 23 IP
5.80 ERA

Aye carrumba.

Falls City Beer
07-06-2006, 02:41 PM
What's his age, stats, info in general?

36 YO,

Getting beaten badly in Seattle 5.85 ERA I think.

Lefty David Weathers.

registerthis
07-06-2006, 02:41 PM
Retirement Village.

And not even one of those nice ones with the putting green and fancy on-campus restaurant.

This is one of those places you see profiled on 60 Minutes for health code violations.

redsfan30
07-06-2006, 02:41 PM
Who goes?

Shackelford? Weathers DFA??

Marc D
07-06-2006, 02:42 PM
And where exactly did we stand with Chick?

I remember he was from the Randa deal, wasn't he the one that threw serious heat?

15fan
07-06-2006, 02:43 PM
ESPN stats link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2893

Making $6.25 M this year...

Caveat Emperor
07-06-2006, 02:43 PM
Year G IP H ER HR BB K G/F W L S ERA WHIP
2001 67 66.7 47 26 5 23 67 - 7 1 12 3.51 1.050
2002 68 67.7 53 22 9 18 70 - 1 3 45 2.93 1.049
2003 66 65.3 50 21 7 14 60 - 3 5 41 2.89 .980
2004 41 45.3 31 14 8 14 45 - 2 2 18 2.78 .993
2005 58 56.3 52 17 7 15 48 - 2 3 36 2.72 1.189
2006 28 23.0 29 14 8 11 22 0.70 1 3 5 5.48 1.739

Good move about 5 years ago. Maybe someone can lend Narron a Wayback Machine or TARDIS or something and go back to pick up guys like Aurillia, Hatteberg, Weathers and Guardado in their prime and bring them to Cincinnati.

RBA
07-06-2006, 02:43 PM
Guardado, Eddie SEA RPJun. 24, 2006 Guardado is day-to-day with back spasms suffered in Thursday's game.He won't have any fantasy value until he reclaims his closing job from J.J. Putz this year. Guardado, Eddie SEA RPMay. 23, 2006 Guardado pitched a perfect ninth against the Orioles on Monday to record his first save since April 30. J.J. Putz had worked the previous three days, so this game the Mariners an opportunity to use Guardado.The Mariners will continue to monitor him before putting him back in the closing role for good. Guardado, Eddie SEA RPMay. 4, 2006 Guardado, who blew his third save on Wednesday, is being removed from the closer's role, according to manager Mike Hargrove. He will be used in less pressure situations. J.J. Putz will become the favorite for saves for the Mariners right now.He should put together some decent outings and reclaim his job. Guardado, Eddie SEA RPApr. 21, 2006 Guardado walked four and gave up a run in the ninth to be charged with his second straight loss against the Giants on Thursday.He is sporting a 11.12 ERA now with only two saves in 5 2/3 innings this season. Ugly, ugly. Guardado, Eddie SEA RPApr. 5, 2006 Guardado was beat up for three runs in the ninth inning Tuesday night against the Angels. He entered the inning with a five-run lead.He definitely wasn't his usual self in the 41-pitch outing. Guardado, Eddie SEA RPMar. 16, 2006 Guardado tossed a scoreless inning in his spring training debut Wednesday.He usually doesn't do much during spring training games but make a couple of appearances. Guardado, Eddie SEA RPFeb. 18, 2006 Guardado is on light-duty again this year during spring training. "There are a lot of pitchers who need to throw 100 pitches," Guardado said. "But that's not me. I just need to throw some fastballs, a couple of sliders, a couple of splitters and I'm ready to go." After pitching just one minor league spring game, he recorded a club record of 27 straight saves last season. The veteran closer isn't slowing down.Source: Seattle Post-Intelligencer (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/260011_eddie18.html)
2006 Fantasy Baseball ProfileGuardado finished 2005 with 36 saves in 41 chances. The Mariners picked up his $6.25 million option for 2006. Unlike most relievers, Guardado takes it pretty easy during spring training and plans to do so again this year. He pitched just one spring training game in 2005 and unbelievably record 27 straight saves, a team record, for the Mariners. Despite playing with a torn rotator cuff, he finished 14th among relievers in saves in 2005 and has posted a sub-3.00 ERA for four straight years. The 35-year-old, though, slowed down in the last six weeks of 2005 allowing 11 earned runs.

captainmorgan07
07-06-2006, 02:44 PM
finally a proven closer he's had his struggles in seattle but everyday eddie was lights out in minny

NJReds
07-06-2006, 02:44 PM
Wow. He really dropped off fast. Ouch.

15fan
07-06-2006, 02:45 PM
Despite playing with a torn rotator cuff, he finished 14th among relievers in saves in 2005 and has posted a sub-3.00 ERA for four straight years. The 35-year-old, though, slowed down in the last six weeks of 2005 allowing 11 earned runs.

:eek:

CTA513
07-06-2006, 02:45 PM
Maybe he will bring J.J. Putz or Felix Hernandez with him?

:p:

Reds Fanatic
07-06-2006, 02:47 PM
This year Guardado:

Vs lefties: .761 OPS, .286 AVG, .306 OBP, .457 SLG
Vs. Righties: 1.115 OPS, .322 AVG., .420 OBP, .695 SLG, 7 HRs allowed in 69 plate appearances.

Marc D
07-06-2006, 02:49 PM
Travis Chick (http://thebaseballcube.com/players/C/Travis-Chick.shtml) career numbers. I'm not so sure I'm ok with this.

Chip R
07-06-2006, 02:49 PM
Interesting if the Reds are picking up his full salary.

NC Reds
07-06-2006, 02:49 PM
Eddie Guardado - the newest deck chair on the S.S. Titanic. Enough of the old guys already.

Joseph
07-06-2006, 02:49 PM
This year Guardado:

Vs lefties: .761 OPS, .286 AVG, .306 OBP, .457 SLG
Vs. Righties: 1.115 OPS, .322 AVG., .420 OBP, .695 SLG, 7 HRs allowed in 69 plate appearances.

That line inspires confidence. Sounds like a guy we should have gotten for Hammond instead of a prospect.

captainmorgan07
07-06-2006, 02:50 PM
is he gonna be in uniform tonite?

Krusty
07-06-2006, 02:50 PM
Since this will be Guardado's first stint in the NL, he will have the upper advantage.

registerthis
07-06-2006, 02:50 PM
This year Guardado:

Vs. Righties: 1.115 OPS, .322 AVG., .420 OBP, .695 SLG, 7 HRs allowed in 69 plate appearances.

Whoah nellie.

That's putrid.

captainmorgan07
07-06-2006, 02:50 PM
Whoah nellie.

That's putrid.
but nobody in the nl has saw him as stated before upper hand to everyday eddie

registerthis
07-06-2006, 02:52 PM
but nobody in the nl has saw him as stated before upper hand to everyday eddie

So his first couple of outings he does OK. Then the NL teams start watching tapes. Then it all heads downhill.

Blech. Why go after guys like this? Makes no sense.

Johnny Footstool
07-06-2006, 02:53 PM
He's an extreme flyball pitcher who benefitted from pitching in that cavern in Seattle.

He's toast.

Az. Reds Fan
07-06-2006, 02:53 PM
IIRC, he's in the midst of pitching through a torn labrum. After being diagnosed, he chose the rehab route as opposed to surgery.

Don't have a link, but I believe Thom Brennaman mentioned it when he came in to pitch for the Mariners against the D'backs.

reds44
07-06-2006, 02:53 PM
He had a sub 3 ERA with 36 saves last year. With our pen, he is worth a shot.

I hope we aren't paying all that salary though.

Matt700wlw
07-06-2006, 02:53 PM
Well...it can't get any WORSE than the worst bullpen in the National League.

Have to try something I guess.

Caveat Emperor
07-06-2006, 02:54 PM
Travis Chick (http://thebaseballcube.com/players/C/Travis-Chick.shtml) career numbers. I'm not so sure I'm ok with this.

Don't let Chick's numbers or starts fool you -- all the scouting reports I've read on the kid say that he really doesn't have the secondary pitches to start at the next level. He's a strictly fastball/slider kind of guy who will, if he makes it to the bigs, will have to live out of the bullpen.

Though, given the putridness of the Reds pen over the last couple years, he seems like the kinda guy you'd want to throw in the pen and fasttrack up to the bigs.

This move just doesn't make sense on any level.

flyer85
07-06-2006, 02:57 PM
another Ex-Twin ... whoda thunkit

BTW, the Mariners are as much in the hunt as the Reds are which tells you something of what they think about Guardado (Soriano is having arm issues as well). Their closer, Putz, has been the most dominant reliever in the game this season.

Eddie has suffered from a slightly elevated h%(32) and his main problem has been the problem of most of the Reds relievers , gopherballitis.

Danny Serafini
07-06-2006, 02:57 PM
The Mariners are sending cash along with Guardado, but how much hasn't been revealed yet.

Heath
07-06-2006, 02:58 PM
Obviously Travis Chick wasn't the answer either.

He's another arm that looks like Seattle is paying us to off their hands. He might be good for a few rounds in the NL.

Where do you think relief pitchers come from? Costco? Geez, yeah it sucks that we can't get the quality, but if Jeff Weaver's getting tossed for Low A crap and there is fighting over Jason Johnson, well, what else is there?

I mean sure I'd love to have Scot Shields or Dan Wheeler or Neal Cotts or Aaron Heilman, but those guys are GOOD and at a PREMIUM and we don't have the depth to trade for those guys.

Put me down as OK with the deal. If it pans out, WayneK's a genius. At least he's doing SOMETHING. And if he sucks, (which he will probably do anyway) pull up this thread and smile at me and tell me "We told you so".

Tommyjohn25
07-06-2006, 03:00 PM
Obviously Travis Chick wasn't the answer either.

He's another arm that looks like Seattle is paying us to off their hands. He might be good for a few rounds in the NL.

Where do you think relief pitchers come from? Costco? Geez, yeah it sucks that we can't get the quality, but if Jeff Weaver's getting tossed for Low A crap and there is fighting over Jason Johnson, well, what else is there?

I mean sure I'd love to have Scot Shields or Dan Wheeler or Neal Cotts or Aaron Heilman, but those guys are GOOD and at a PREMIUM and we don't have the depth to trade for those guys.

Put me down as OK with the deal. If it pans out, WayneK's a genius. At least he's doing SOMETHING.


I was just getting ready to make a post very similar to this one, I'm willing to hold out judgement and give him a shot. Nobody else in this bullpen is stepping up right now.

Marc D
07-06-2006, 03:00 PM
Don't let Chick's numbers or starts fool you -- all the scouting reports I've read on the kid say that he really doesn't have the secondary pitches to start at the next level. He's a strictly fastball/slider kind of guy who will, if he makes it to the bigs, will have to live out of the bullpen.

Though, given the putridness of the Reds pen over the last couple years, he seems like the kinda guy you'd want to throw in the pen and fasttrack up to the bigs.

This move just doesn't make sense on any level.

I agree and this is the exact type of thing I have feared they would do. Trading any type of real prospect for short term, old junk just to make a WC run in a horrifically weak NL is ignorance at the highest level imo.

captainmorgan07
07-06-2006, 03:01 PM
anyword if he's gonna be at the game in time tonite

RedsManRick
07-06-2006, 03:04 PM
Guardado has been a very solid reliever for most of his career. Chick has regressed from his single A dominance, showing very little progress his 2nd year in AA.

This year he's gone:

84 IP, 4-5, 4.61 ERA, 77 K, 36 BB, 1.37 WHIP, 12 HR

That said, he's just turned 22 and still has some solid upside.

If Eddie pitches like he has in the past, this is a solid deal for us. If his rotator cuff is seriously borked, I must say I'm not a big fan. Time will tell...

15fan
07-06-2006, 03:04 PM
Ms are off today in the middle of a homestand.

Seattle to Atlanta is a loooong flight.

flyer85
07-06-2006, 03:06 PM
This really looks like an act of complete desperation.

The oonly possible upside is that Guardado has been unlucky with the HR ball as he has never allowed more than 9 over 2001-2005 and that with 8 already it will normalize. He does miss more bats than the rest of the Reds relievers but the truth is they still need a couple of more guys to come in and pitch well(even if EG does).

CTA513
07-06-2006, 03:06 PM
anyword if he's gonna be at the game in time tonite

I wouldnt be surprised if Castellini let the Reds use his private plane to pick him up.

Caveat Emperor
07-06-2006, 03:07 PM
I agree and this is the exact type of thing I have feared they would do. Trading any type of real prospect for short term, old junk just to make a WC run in a horrifically weak NL is ignorance at the highest level imo.

Chick was a Dan'O acquisition; I believe he came over from San Diego with Justin Germano in the Joe Randa deal.

Not great return on that deal, in hindsight -- a LOOGY who used to be famous and a soft-tossing AAAA arm.

Matt700wlw
07-06-2006, 03:09 PM
I wouldnt be surprised if Castellini let the Reds use his private plane to pick him up.

It looks like he'll join tomorrow (according to the Butcher press release I recieved) and a corresponding move will be made.


Final auditions to be held tonight.

Marc D
07-06-2006, 03:09 PM
Next we'll see Votto to Minny for the rights to bring Viola and Herbek out of retirement.

reds44
07-06-2006, 03:10 PM
We didn't pay for his entire salary.


CINCINNATI Ö (AP) Ö Trying to bolster their struggling bullpen, the Cincinnati Reds acquired Eddie Guardado and cash from the Seattle Mariners on Thursday for minor league pitcher Travis Chick.

The Reds made the trade a day after blowing two leads in extra innings before losing 6-5 in the 13th at Milwaukee. After the game, Cincinnati reliever Brian Shackelford was arrested on suspicion of third-degree sexual assault.

Guardado is expected to join the Reds in Atlanta on Friday. Cincinnati began the day two games behind St. Louis in the NL Central.

The 35-year-old Guardado had 36 saves with a 2.72 ERA in 58 games for the Mariners last season.

But this year, the normally reliable reliever known as "Everyday Eddie'' struggled and was demoted from the closer's role in May after blowing three save chances. Guardado was 1-3 with five saves and a 5.48 ERA, and was serving as a setup man for J.J. Putz.

"Eddie had some struggles early on this season that allowed some of our young guys to run the back of the game and they got that job and haven't let go,'' general manager Bill Bavasi said in a release.

The 21-year-old Chick was 4-5 with a 4.61 ERA for Double-A Chattanooga. The Reds acquired the righty from the San Diego organization last July in a deal for third baseman Joe Randa.

Heath
07-06-2006, 03:19 PM
Let's get the run down here -

We got EE, EZ, now EG.

And we got a reliever who's been arrested because he doesn't have ED

Way, way, way too many vowels.

TRF
07-06-2006, 03:25 PM
absolutely wretched trade IMO.

Chick had upside. If you want to move him fine. Do it and package him with Deno or Votto to get some actual MLB talent, not a guy that likely should be DL'd for season/career ending shoulder surgery.

blech.

dsmith421
07-06-2006, 03:28 PM
This really looks like an act of complete desperation.

Pretty much. At least, as CE noted, Chick wasn't really a world-beater. This reeks of the Ortiz-Moseley fiasco from last year.

RANDY IN INDY
07-06-2006, 03:32 PM
36 years old, maybe? I don't know about this one.

redsfan30
07-06-2006, 03:33 PM
If he rebounds, we got a steal.

It's hard to argue with his numbers over the past few seasons.

Aronchis
07-06-2006, 03:34 PM
The Reds will be getting rid of their vets before long anyway you look at it. Looks like organizational cleaning.

RANDY IN INDY
07-06-2006, 03:35 PM
New blood, I guess, even if it is old.

lollipopcurve
07-06-2006, 03:36 PM
This reeks of the Ortiz-Moseley fiasco from last year.

A middling prospect for a veteran on the downside -- very common. Cards made the same kind of trade yesterday. The bullpen needs a change of some kind -- maybe EverydayE will give it a lift.

Cedric
07-06-2006, 03:36 PM
This is about as boring as a trade can get. Two pieces of junk traded for each other.

With our bullpen it's worth a shot I guess. Travis Chick will never be a decent major leaguer, not even close.

M2
07-06-2006, 03:40 PM
I'm not going to shed any tears for Travis Chick, but Guardado, because of his longball tendencies, was always going to be a guy who, when he went, would go in a hurry. Add baserunners to the gopherballs and you've got a toxic mix. It looks like 2006 is his cave-in year. Now, he's a lefty and he can still make hitters swing and miss a bit, so he might rebound in future years or carve out a niche as a LOOGY (hello Jesse Orosco). Yet I sincerely doubt Guardado's going to provide much help to the 2006 Cincinnati Reds.

Marty and Joe
07-06-2006, 03:41 PM
If my calculations are right, here are EZ's #'s since May 1st (he had a horrendous April)

19 Appearances
1 Win, 1 Loss, 1 Save
14.3 IP
16 H
4 BB
12 K
3.767 ERA
1.395 WHIP

Given his past #'s and the way this bullpen has performed, it can't hurt to bring him in here and see if he can help.

Giving up Chick hurts, but, he's a guy that's still been more hype than performance at this point. I hope they both do well.

BuckU
07-06-2006, 03:43 PM
Wow...people beg and beg for a change in the bullpen and one is made and it gets ripped. Eddie is a guy who has been successful most of his career and is having a bit of a rough go the last couple of months. As far as I'm concerned, any change is a good change.

I think we all need to take a deep breath and give this trade the benefit of the doubt. Young, flame throwers are not avaliable. The teams that have those type of player don't part with them.

reds44
07-06-2006, 03:44 PM
If my calculations are right, here are EZ's #'s since May 1st (he had a horrendous April)

19 Appearances
1 Win, 1 Loss, 1 Save
14.3 IP
16 H
4 BB
12 K
3.767 ERA
1.395 WHIP

Given his past #'s and the way this bullpen has performed, it can't hurt to bring him in here and see if he can help.

Giving up Chick hurts, but, he's a guy that's still been more hype than performance at this point. I hope they both do well.
That is good to hear.

KronoRed
07-06-2006, 03:46 PM
For Chick?

Ugh :(

redsfan30
07-06-2006, 03:46 PM
One bad year, really one bad month and everyone around here calls him garbage.

Typical.

KronoRed
07-06-2006, 03:47 PM
another Ex-Twin ... whoda thunkit

Hey..if Wayne sticks around long enough maybe we can get Mauer..when he's 42 :evil:

reds44
07-06-2006, 03:47 PM
One bad year, really one bad month and everyone around here calls him garbage.

Typical.
Yep I would agree with you that he is not garabge.

I like the deal.

WVRed
07-06-2006, 03:49 PM
Wow...people beg and beg for a change in the bullpen and one is made and it gets ripped. Eddie is a guy who has been successful most of his career and is having a bit of a rough go the last couple of months. As far as I'm concerned, any change is a good change.

I think we all need to take a deep breath and give this trade the benefit of the doubt. Young, flame throwers are not avaliable. The teams that have those type of player don't part with them.

I wanted K-Rod.:(

Just sayin'.

Reds Fanatic
07-06-2006, 03:54 PM
If my calculations are right, here are EZ's #'s since May 1st (he had a horrendous April)

19 Appearances
1 Win, 1 Loss, 1 Save
14.3 IP
16 H
4 BB
12 K
3.767 ERA
1.395 WHIP

Given his past #'s and the way this bullpen has performed, it can't hurt to bring him in here and see if he can help.

Giving up Chick hurts, but, he's a guy that's still been more hype than performance at this point. I hope they both do well.

Of those stats Guardado had one good month this year in May. Other than that he has not been good the rest of the year. His ERA by month:

April: 8.31
May: 2.25
June: 4.50
July: 27.00 in one appearance

Reds Nd2
07-06-2006, 03:57 PM
Yep I would agree with you that he is not garabge.

I like the deal.

Give it time. You'll come around.

15fan
07-06-2006, 04:02 PM
I'm not going to shed any tears for Travis Chick, but Guardado, because of his longball tendencies, was always going to be a guy who, when he went, would go in a hurry. Add baserunners to the gopherballs and you've got a toxic mix. It looks like 2006 is his cave-in year. Now, he's a lefty and he can still make hitters swing and miss a bit, so he might rebound in future years or carve out a niche as a LOOGY (hello Jesse Orosco). Yet I sincerely doubt Guardado's going to provide much help to the 2006 Cincinnati Reds.

Don't forget to add the shoulder injury (rotator cuff) to the mix. Though I hope he can bounce back, all of the stars are aligning for EG to continue with his Chernobyl-like meltdown.

IMO, trading away Chick is like trading away Buddy Carlyle. The return looks every bit as flammable as Marc Kroon...

M2
07-06-2006, 04:19 PM
Wow...people beg and beg for a change in the bullpen and one is made and it gets ripped. Eddie is a guy who has been successful most of his career and is having a bit of a rough go the last couple of months. As far as I'm concerned, any change is a good change.

I think we all need to take a deep breath and give this trade the benefit of the doubt. Young, flame throwers are not avaliable. The teams that have those type of player don't part with them.

It's only a good change if Guardado pitches well. If the guy who's been chucking for Seattle this year shows up then he'll be like pouring gasoline on the fire.

TheBigLebowski
07-06-2006, 04:22 PM
Hey, why not? Honestly?

I like the move. Ship him overnight and have him in Red for tomorrow night's game.

If he continues to pitch like he has over the last month & 1/2, maybe he could take over as closer and allow Coff to resume as setup man extraordinaire.

Just hope the M's are eating a large chunk of that salary.

M2
07-06-2006, 04:23 PM
One bad year, really one bad month and everyone around here calls him garbage.

Typical.

Unlike you, the people I see who aren't so wild about Guardado have a history of being able to judge pitching talent.

KronoRed
07-06-2006, 04:23 PM
It's only a good change if Guardado pitches well. If the guy who's been chucking for Seattle this year shows up then he'll be like pouring gasoline on the fire.
Guess the plan is miracle or disaster :evil:

M2
07-06-2006, 04:26 PM
Hey, why not? Honestly?

That's probably the best argument for the deal. There is a slim chance it could work.

TheBigLebowski
07-06-2006, 04:33 PM
That's probably the best argument for the deal. There is a slim chance it could work.


And if it doesn't work, we've sacrificed a marginal AA prospect and an undetermined amount of cash. Moderate risk, potentially good reward.

PuffyPig
07-06-2006, 04:33 PM
He's a had a great history of success. He's still striking out guys, which is good. He's been BABIP unlucky this year, which is good.

He's pitched badly this year, but better recently. His age is largely irrelavent, as we need him for about half a year.

What do you expect for a mid-prospect? If you want a Shields, you'll need to give up a Bailey.

We got a guy who might me good. That's what you get for a Chick.

redsfanmia
07-06-2006, 04:36 PM
absolutely wretched trade IMO.

Chick had upside. If you want to move him fine. Do it and package him with Deno or Votto to get some actual MLB talent, not a guy that likely should be DL'd for season/career ending shoulder surgery.

blech.
Hey Krivsky is trying something, Eddie could be ok or he could be horrible but atleast he is trying something. Chick is a never will be and will probably never be heard from again.

redsfanmia
07-06-2006, 04:39 PM
Unlike you, the people I see who aren't so wild about Guardado have a history of being able to judge pitching talent.
Why so nasty?

M2
07-06-2006, 04:39 PM
And if it doesn't work, we've sacrificed a marginal AA prospect and an undetermined amount of cash. Moderate risk, potentially good reward.

I'm still not enthusiastic about it, but I certainly don't mind trading away Chick or spending the money.

IslandRed
07-06-2006, 04:39 PM
Unfortunately, now we know another reason why Krivsky decided to pull the trigger for a lefthanded reliever.

Truth is, I'm not sure the bullpen is fixable, not to the point it needs to be. I think they've decided Coffey needs to go back to a setup role, and Belisle isn't totally useless. Beyond that, it's all bad, bad, bad. I can't ever remember a team pulling off a July bullpen makeover to the extent we need one. Whether that's an argument for or against the extreme makeover -- and by "extreme," I mean "it'll cost us ballplayers we'll wish later we still had" -- is in the eye of the beholder.

Matt700wlw
07-06-2006, 04:40 PM
Hey Krivsky is trying something, Eddie could be ok or he could be horrible but atleast he is trying something.

Yup...previous regime would have stood pat and expected things to improve without making a change. They were insane I tell ya!

Like I've said, when you have the worst bullpen in the NL, it CANNOT get worse....

Caveat Emperor
07-06-2006, 04:44 PM
And if it doesn't work, we've sacrificed a marginal AA prospect and an undetermined amount of cash. Moderate risk, potentially good reward.

If Krivsky wanted to sift through the refuse bin, I think bringing Jeff Weaver over might've had a bigger upside. And at least Weaver has two healthy shoulders, as opposed to the 1 that Guardado brings to the table.

I'll cry not for losing Travis Chick, as I thought he was probably a longshot to be even a middle reliever within the next 2 years, but you've gotta call this what it is: a dead closer coming in with Esteban Yan numbers.

When closers "lose it" the results usually aren't very pretty.

M2
07-06-2006, 04:46 PM
Why so nasty?

Why not? When a guy with a history of lauding bad pitchers and berating the people who spot it up front posts the following:

"One bad year, really one bad month and everyone around here calls him garbage.

Typical."

I see no reason to be polite.

TRF
07-06-2006, 04:47 PM
Hey Krivsky is trying something, Eddie could be ok or he could be horrible but atleast he is trying something. Chick is a never will be and will probably never be heard from again.

funny. I thought the same thing about Ray King and BJ Ryan.

Krivsky also keptt EE in the minors while Castro gets starts at 3B.

Krivsky traded for 15 minutes of Cody Ross.

Krivsky has 3 catchers on the 25 man roster.

Krivsky aquired E. Yan.

Oh he hit solid on BP, and Ross was nice for about 2 1/2 months. But Q has been wretched all year, Arroyo is starting to come back to earth, and Joe Freaking Mays?

Krivsky is very much like a fantasy GM. Sometimes he makes moves just for the sake of making moves. Has a bit of JimBo in him, minus the leather pants.

redsfan30
07-06-2006, 04:51 PM
Unlike you, the people I see who aren't so wild about Guardado have a history of being able to judge pitching talent.
Ummmm...ok..

BCubb2003
07-06-2006, 04:52 PM
If he's pitched an inning without giving up a run, he's an upgrade.

Falls City Beer
07-06-2006, 04:53 PM
funny. I thought the same thing about Ray King and BJ Ryan.

Krivsky also keptt EE in the minors while Castro gets starts at 3B.

Krivsky traded for 15 minutes of Cody Ross.

Krivsky has 3 catchers on the 25 man roster.

Krivsky aquired E. Yan.

Oh he hit solid on BP, and Ross was nice for about 2 1/2 months. But Q has been wretched all year, Arroyo is starting to come back to earth, and Joe Freaking Mays?

Krivsky is very much like a fantasy GM. Sometimes he makes moves just for the sake of making moves. Has a bit of JimBo in him, minus the leather pants.


I think my new favorite thing on this board is the total dismissal out of hand of Krivsky's acquisition of Arroyo for Pena.

He's coming "down to earth."

I'd like to point out that if "coming down to earth" means coming down to a 3.50 ERA for the year and a .700 OPSA, 1.25 WHIP, I want an entire rotation of descending pitchers.

Joseph
07-06-2006, 04:53 PM
funny. I thought the same thing about Ray King and BJ Ryan.

Krivsky also keptt EE in the minors while Castro gets starts at 3B.

Krivsky traded for 15 minutes of Cody Ross.

Krivsky has 3 catchers on the 25 man roster.

Krivsky aquired E. Yan.

Oh he hit solid on BP, and Ross was nice for about 2 1/2 months. But Q has been wretched all year, Arroyo is starting to come back to earth, and Joe Freaking Mays?

Krivsky is very much like a fantasy GM. Sometimes he makes moves just for the sake of making moves. Has a bit of JimBo in him, minus the leather pants.


I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but it is certainly an interesting POV.

flyer85
07-06-2006, 04:55 PM
funny. I thought the same thing about Ray King and BJ Ryan.

Krivsky also keptt EE in the minors while Castro gets starts at 3B.

Krivsky traded for 15 minutes of Cody Ross.

Krivsky has 3 catchers on the 25 man roster.

Krivsky aquired E. Yan.
So the honeymoon is over?

RedLegSuperStar
07-06-2006, 04:55 PM
funny. I thought the same thing about Ray King and BJ Ryan.

Krivsky also keptt EE in the minors while Castro gets starts at 3B.

Krivsky traded for 15 minutes of Cody Ross.

Krivsky has 3 catchers on the 25 man roster.

Krivsky aquired E. Yan.

Oh he hit solid on BP, and Ross was nice for about 2 1/2 months. But Q has been wretched all year, Arroyo is starting to come back to earth, and Joe Freaking Mays?

Krivsky is very much like a fantasy GM. Sometimes he makes moves just for the sake of making moves. Has a bit of JimBo in him, minus the leather pants.

Take it easy.. We wanted the team to show they were commited and these moves today show that. I'm sure they are not done. Adding Eddie will give us a stronger pen no matter how bad his AL numbers are.

M2
07-06-2006, 04:56 PM
\I can't ever remember a team pulling off a July bullpen makeover to the extent we need one.

This can't be said enough. What the Reds need in the bullpen probably can't be attained and then when you add in a need to add at least one quality starting pitcher, well, it's a Gordian Knot. If the Reds are going to finish above .500 and potentially in a playoff spot, they're going to have to do it with a bad bullpen.

KronoRed
07-06-2006, 04:57 PM
So the honeymoon is over?
Towels on the floor and toothpaste on the mirror

NJReds
07-06-2006, 04:57 PM
So the honeymoon is over?

Was there one?

Caveat Emperor
07-06-2006, 04:58 PM
Take it easy.. We wanted the team to show they were commited and these moves today show that. I'm sure they are not done. Adding Eddie will give us a stronger pen no matter how bad his AL numbers are.

That's an awfully low standard for judgment -- Krivsky could've probably gone to a local Beer League softball game and gotten someone to pitch underhand and it would still have given the Reds a "stronger pen."

Puffy
07-06-2006, 05:05 PM
That's an awfully low standard for judgment -- Krivsky could've probably gone to a local Beer League softball game and gotten someone to pitch underhand and it would still have given the Reds a "stronger pen."

Ahhhhhhh, low standards - how every bit of sex I have ever gotten was acquired! When they lowered their standards to my level.

RedLegSuperStar
07-06-2006, 05:06 PM
That's an awfully low standard for judgment -- Krivsky could've probably gone to a local Beer League softball game and gotten someone to pitch underhand and it would still have given the Reds a "stronger pen."

LOL..

Seriously though.. I think we have a stronger pen at the start of Fridays game then we have had in the past month!

TRF
07-06-2006, 05:09 PM
I think my new favorite thing on this board is the total dismissal out of hand of Krivsky's acquisition of Arroyo for Pena.

He's coming "down to earth."

I'd like to point out that if "coming down to earth" means coming down to a 3.50 ERA for the year and a .700 OPSA, 1.25 WHIP, I want an entire rotation of descending pitchers.

Has there ever been a post quoted this often this fast?

Arroyo has been throwing a lot of pitches, and he's never been a high strikeout guy. And he's getting a lot of flyball outs. He got hammered monday, but I'll attribute that to nervousness after being named to the AS Team.

He always seemes to be teetering on the edge. And a 4+ era in July and part of August wouldn't surprise me a bit.


So the honeymoon is over?

I've said this since Spring Training. Krivsky likes to make move, and a ton of them have made no sense whatsoever. Arroyo was a good pickup, but I still think he should have gotten more. Other than Arroyo he hasn't made a single decent pitching aquisition.

Think about that. No one he has gotten for the bullpen has worked out.

Johnny Footstool
07-06-2006, 05:09 PM
Aren't flyball pitchers very poorly suited for GAB?

Guardado gives up nearly two flyballs for every groundball. That should be a huge red flag.

redsfanmia
07-06-2006, 05:14 PM
Arroyo has been throwing a lot of pitches, He got hammered monday

Think about that. No one he has gotten for the bullpen has worked out.

Arroyo allowed one hit other than the fifth inning, I dont think that qualified as "getting hammered". Yan hasnt been a total disaster, not good mind you but give Wayne some credit. I think getting Arroyo singlehandidly changed the whole outlook of this team and is the main reason the Reds are even remotely in contention.

redsfanmia
07-06-2006, 05:16 PM
Why not? When a guy with a history of lauding bad pitchers and berating the people who spot it up front posts the following:

"One bad year, really one bad month and everyone around here calls him garbage.

Typical."

I see no reason to be polite.
Didnt know the history just thought the initial post was a bit harsh.

M2
07-06-2006, 05:27 PM
I've said this since Spring Training. Krivsky likes to make move, and a ton of them have made no sense whatsoever. Arroyo was a good pickup, but I still think he should have gotten more. Other than Arroyo he hasn't made a single decent pitching aquisition.

Think about that. No one he has gotten for the bullpen has worked out.

IMO Krivsky inherited a fairly impossible situation. That he landed Arroyo and snatched up Phillips in late March/early April is nothing short of stunning. To a degree he's got to toss crap at the wall and hope it sticks.

The one mistake I think he made is dealing away Cody Ross, who'd be a real nice bench player to have. I agree with FCB that losing Eric Milton should be an imperative. Krivsky made have missed his best chance on that.

Probably the best plan at the moment is to rebuild for the present if you will (e.g. trade for some young guys and see if they can pay an immediate dividend). With so many teams in contention, you might be able to pry loose some young arms for veteran talent.

kbrake
07-06-2006, 05:27 PM
I dont see how people have turned on the Arroyo deal. He might be slowing down a bit, but what was the alternative keep Wily Mo? Krivsky has done a fine job, and coming into clean up Dan O's mess is not a job I would want. He has not had even close to a full calendar year people give him a chance. Phillips and Arroyo deals alone should have people happy for awhile.

registerthis
07-06-2006, 05:30 PM
So the honeymoon is over?

Boy, that didn't take long.

And with the tea still over .500 and 2 back of the Cards, no less.

Don't ever let anyone say Reds fans don't demand perfection from their GMs.

TRF
07-06-2006, 05:32 PM
Arroyo allowed one hit other than the fifth inning, I dont think that qualified as "getting hammered". Yan hasnt been a total disaster, not good mind you but give Wayne some credit. I think getting Arroyo singlehandidly changed the whole outlook of this team and is the main reason the Reds are even remotely in contention.

I do give credit for Arroyo. I think he should have gotten more, but I'm pretty happy the Reds have Arroyo. It's great to have a 1-2 punch like Harang/Arroyo.

I think Yan has been misused by Narron. He's a 1 inning guy. multiple innings from him hurt the club.

But there is no excuse for Joe Mays. None. or Cody Ross. Or Eddie Guardado. Or Juan Castro. Or keeping EE down...

This pen needs a complete makeover. I'd keep Belisle and Coffey, and put everyone else on notice. Dumatrait can hit 94 I believe. put him in the pen. Call up Wagner, if he can string together multiple good appearances. The Cubs are done, someone has to be available. Phillies, Braves, Nats. Someone has some pitching. How about Denorfia or Votto for Jon Rauch?

Ltlabner
07-06-2006, 05:41 PM
Think about that. No one he has gotten for the bullpen has worked out.

And please list for us this long list of all-star caliber pitchers that were available had The Kriv just made a phone call?

And the BA thing...I agree 100% with FCB. How could anybody knock that move? BA has contriubuted more to winning games for the Reds (and hopefully will continue to do so) than WMP could have ever hoped to have. To say it was a 1:1 value makes no sense. What did this team need desperatly? Pitching. What did it already have "too much of" ? offense. What need did BA fill (hint, the first one)? What need did WMP fill (hint, not the first one)?

To say they are a 1:1 value implies (unless I am misunderstanding something) that we would have won just as many games had WMP been here than with BA. That's just laughable.

TRF
07-06-2006, 05:46 PM
I knocked it when it happened, I knock it now. If Arroyo goes all Jack Armstrong in the second half, I won't be smiling, and if he gets another 9 wins, I'll still knock the trade as I firmly believe the Reds had Boston over a barrel.

I didn't say once that All-Star caliber pitchers were available. I'd have settled for thee league average guys for the pen. He's come up empty on that one so far.

Sea Ray
07-06-2006, 05:47 PM
Here's what my brother-in-law and Mariner season ticket holder has to say about the trade:


"Everyday Eddie is all washed up! Bum arm, loss of velocity, bad location with his pitches, and he gives up too many untimely homeruns. Several blown save opportunities, the good news is the National league hitters arenít the same quality as the American league and he may be able to get by on shear guts. The heads willing , but the body isnít."

That's about what I figured. I think Chick was too much to give up even though our bullpen is in such dire straights.

registerthis
07-06-2006, 06:00 PM
I knocked it when it happened, I knock it now. If Arroyo goes all Jack Armstrong in the second half, I won't be smiling, and if he gets another 9 wins, I'll still knock the trade as I firmly believe the Reds had Boston over a barrel.

Pena's headed into the AS Break with 4 bombs and 18 rbi. We traded THAT to pick up a pitcher with the potential to get 20 wins, a sub-4.00 ERA and a WHIP under 1.30, and you knock the trade?

Some people will never be happy. :rolleyes:

Ltlabner
07-06-2006, 06:02 PM
I didn't say once that All-Star caliber pitchers were available. I'd have settled for thee league average guys for the pen. He's come up empty on that one so far.

Ok then. Please list for us the three league average guys for the pen that were available in the first two months of the season and we could have acquired with what we were willing to spend, or the tallent we were willing to offer.

redsfan30
07-06-2006, 06:08 PM
Take what opposing teams say about newly aquired players with a grain of salt.

Remember, alot of people are begging for Jason LaRue to be traded for a warm body...

Falls City Beer
07-06-2006, 06:11 PM
I knocked it when it happened, I knock it now. If Arroyo goes all Jack Armstrong in the second half, I won't be smiling, and if he gets another 9 wins, I'll still knock the trade as I firmly believe the Reds had Boston over a barrel.



The Reds had Boston over no such barrel. Boston was as clear-eyed as possible about what they thought of Pena: a 4th outfielder. And he's got nowhere to play now unless Manny succumbs to injury. Pena's not valueless, but his perceived value by some Reds' fans is totally out of whack with the reality of his value in the eyes of other teams.

Betterread
07-06-2006, 06:16 PM
Guardado's got a tear in his rotator cuff since 2004 - he didn't get it operated on and it was fine for 2005. This year, he's lost velocity and I think that tear may be a factor. I'm surprised at the move, it smacks of desperation, but hopefully he turns his performance around and helps the Reds.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-06-2006, 06:19 PM
Mark me down as thinking this is a low-risk/high reward move.

FWIW, my gut tells me that this will work out. He obviously started slow out of the gate (for whatever reason-out of shape?) and got rocked a bit early on. Since he lost closer duty, he has settled down fine in his last 19 appearances, dating back to 5-3.

You cannot discount the numbers he put up from in four seasons from '02 to '05.

234.67 IP
186 H
61 BB
223 K
1.05 WHIP

Maybe he has just been BABIP unlucky this year and needs a confidence boost and new scenery.

Either way, he's not the crap some are making him out to be and our bullpen just got a bit stonger (which is what everyone wants) and we didn't have to mortgage the future. I would have preferred us going after Tom Gordon, but that may have cost us some future, so this pick-up to me, is a fine balance of upgrading a weakness and not compromising 2007 and beyond.

I'm still not sold that this team can pull it out, but I think Guardado will be solid.

redsfan30
07-06-2006, 06:21 PM
I'd still like to know how much money the Reds are taking on.

NDRed
07-06-2006, 06:25 PM
Desperation or not, unless you think Chick was a boneafide major league prospect there is little not to like about this trade.

GAC
07-06-2006, 06:27 PM
He's an extreme flyball pitcher who benefitted from pitching in that cavern in Seattle.

He's toast.

Burnt toast.... on both sides. ;)

backbencher
07-06-2006, 06:29 PM
The Reds had Boston over no such barrel. Boston was as clear-eyed as possible about what they thought of Pena: a 4th outfielder. And he's got nowhere to play now unless Manny succumbs to injury. Pena's not valueless, but his perceived value by some Reds' fans is totally out of whack with the reality of his value in the eyes of other teams.

Agreed. If anything, the Reds were in the tighter spot as the whole league knew that there was unrest among the bats, and that the Reds wanted a starter. Have any other, better ML-ready arms been shipped since January?

That said, it perhaps would have been possible for the Reds to ship WMP for a collection of arms that were either underused (as was Nathan at the time of the Pierzynski deal) or a year or more off (as with Liriano or Harang, say). Seattle may have been a possibility. Perhaps the ChiSox. I can't think of many others, though, and the Mariners and ChiSox didn't acquire righty bats in the offseason.

GAC
07-06-2006, 06:29 PM
Aren't flyball pitchers very poorly suited for GAB?

Not if you're a fan wanting a souvenir!

What area of the park do most of his flyballs go out of. Will determine my future seating purchases. :p:

backbencher
07-06-2006, 06:32 PM
I'd still like to know how much money the Reds are taking on.
I agree with this, too. If the deal is revenue-reasonable, it's a fine roll of the dice.

SirFelixCat
07-06-2006, 06:39 PM
Desperation or not, unless you think Chick was a boneafide major league prospect there is little not to like about this trade.

This is my thought as well.

Sea Ray
07-06-2006, 06:39 PM
Desperation or not, unless you think Chick was a boneafide major league prospect there is little not to like about this trade.

Agreed but what's not to like about a hard thrower in AA at the age of 21? I see no reason why he couldn't contribute to a major league bullpen in the near future.

I think he does have a future in the major leagues and as I recall the Padres were split on whether to include him in the Randa deal last year. My guess is Krivsky doesn't like his command and jettisoned him accordingly. Krivsky doesn't like hard throwers who don't know where it's going, but i think wildness can be expected at his age unlike say Luke Hudson's age.

Heath
07-06-2006, 06:40 PM
Not if you're a fan wanting a souvenir!

What area of the park do most of his flyballs go out of. Will determine my future seating purchases. :p:

boats on the Ohio River :D

RedLegSuperStar
07-06-2006, 06:49 PM
Update: Eddie is the Closer and Coffey back to Set-Up from Marc

wheels
07-06-2006, 06:50 PM
Ummmm...ok..

Remember Eric Milton?

You loved him, and got real nasty towards the folks that didn't.

Remember that?

membengal
07-06-2006, 06:51 PM
Wow. I guess we best all hope Guardado is hooked up back to the juvenation machine, but at least this puts Coffey into spots earlier in the game again where this team desperately needs him.

Ltlabner
07-06-2006, 06:53 PM
Guardado

Isn't he the guy that sang that song, Ric Suave back in the early 90's? :rolleyes:

Mario-Rijo
07-06-2006, 06:53 PM
Well what else was out there to be had at this juncture with any degree of upside?

Jeff Weaver or Eddie Guardado?

I know what I would want, somebody who has a track record of success! I don't care what it smacks of we need to take some chances at this point. Heck we are desperate and I like the fact that the FO recognizes it and is taking a chance.

We are not going to deal for a current ALL-Star w/o hurting the chances of this team. We have few chips that we can afford to part with and some of those chips (Larue) have little or no value at this point. So I am content with it as we have few options at this point. What I am more concerned with at this point is staying in the hunt and giving these guys a chance. And if it doesn't work and we continue to falter and are not within say 5-7 games of the Division/WC at the deadline then you move KGJ (I could give 2 hoots about seeing #600 if we are not winning) and perhaps a few others and look forward to '07. So bottom line it's too early for me to say Boo for any deal.

oregonred
07-06-2006, 07:04 PM
Arroyo is starting to come back to earth



I'll take five of them.

June: 6 GS, 42 IP, 2.57 ERA, 39H, 9BB, 30K

Without Arroyo (and his 7IP avg start on the year) this team might be lucky to be 36-49 rather than 44-41.

WMP has talent, but he is going to be 25 in the offseason, continues to be injury prone and with service time becomes ridiculously expensive if he ever breaks through. He's no longer a spring chicken...

Add in Arroyo's 3-year contract and that trade is nothing short of amazing -- as one-sided as virtually any I can remember that didn't happen in the heat of a pennant race or in the winter offseason.

I do agree that Cody Ross should have been kept on the 25-man. I'll reserve judgment until I see the PTBNL from Florida.

Guardado -- I'm in the what the heck do we really have to lose camp.

Jpup
07-06-2006, 07:10 PM
color me bored to death by this deal. :) at least the Reds did something. the last time I said that, they signed Eric Milton.

KronoRed
07-06-2006, 07:17 PM
boats on the Ohio River :D

Catch some Dunn Homers there ;)

Mario-Rijo
07-06-2006, 07:26 PM
ESPN's take.


Day after 'pen leaked, Reds deal for Guardado Associated Press


CINCINNATI -- Trying to bolster their struggling bullpen, the Cincinnati Reds will turn to former All-Star closer Eddie Guardado.


Wayne Krivsky has the right idea in trying to upgrade his pitching staff, particularly the Reds' disastrous bullpen, which didn't have a reliable left-hander and which could use an upgrade in the closer role over Todd Coffey. But Eddie Guardado is not the solution.



The Reds obtained Guardado and cash from the Seattle Mariners for minor-league pitcher Travis Chick on Thursday. The trade came hours after the latest in this season's series of bullpen meltdowns -- blown leads in the 10th and 13th innings of a 6-5 loss at Milwaukee.

"He lives for the ninth inning. He loves the pressure of being in that situation, and we're going to give him that opportunity," Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky said.

Krivsky was a former assistant general manager at Minnesota, where Guardado was an All-Star for two years. Guardado led the AL with 45 saves in 2002 and was second with 41 in 2003.

Guardado lost his closer's role at Seattle this season, but Krivsky said he'll get the chance to claim the job in Cincinnati.

The 35-year-old lefty is expected to join the Reds in Atlanta on Friday. Cincinnati began the day two games behind St. Louis in the NL Central, after losing five straight games.

Guardado had 36 saves with a 2.72 ERA in 58 games for the Mariners last season.

The Mariners exercised their 2006 option for Guardado for $6.25 million. It wasn't immediately known how much cash the Mariners are giving the Reds in the deal.

This year, the normally reliable reliever known as "Everyday Eddie" struggled and was demoted in May after blowing three save chances. Guardado was 1-3 with five saves and a 5.48 ERA and was serving as a setup man for J.J. Putz.

"Eddie had some struggles early on this season that allowed some of our young guys to run the back of the game and they got that job and haven't let go," Mariners general manager Bill Bavasi said.

Guardado had a 3.77 ERA in 19 games since losing his closer role.

"Lately, he's been doing a lot of what he does. He is back to the Eddie of old," Bavasi said.

"This guy battled. Hard," said Bavasi, noting that Guardado pitched through knee and shoulder troubles during his Seattle tenure.

The Reds have been shuffling their bullpen, last week designating veteran Chris Hammond for assignment and recalling Brian Shackelford from Triple-A Louisville.

The Reds have tried veteran David Weathers and then Todd Coffey as closers. Coffey blew a ninth-inning lead Monday in Milwaukee for an 8-7 loss and gave up a game-tying home run in the bottom of the 10th Wednesday before Jason Standridge, who joined the team last month from Louisville, allowed two runs in the 13th for the loss.

"I wanted to do something that made sense, and this deal makes sense to us," Krivsky said. He expects Guardado to bring "veteran influence that will settle down" the bullpen, "and we can start closing out these games."

The 22-year-old Chick was 4-5 with a 4.61 ERA for Double-A Chattanooga. The Reds acquired the righty from the San Diego organization last July in a deal for third baseman Joe Randa.

In other moves Thursday, the Reds activated third baseman Edwin Encarnacion and obtained outfielder Dewayne Wise from Louisville.

To make room, the Reds designated outfielder Quinton McCracken for assignment and shipped pitcher Elizardo Ramirez to Class A Dayton so he can start on his regular turn Monday during the All-Star break.

KronoRed
07-06-2006, 07:27 PM
Wait..so he's been doing well since losing his closing job, but we're gonna name him closer right away? :dunno:

M2
07-06-2006, 07:29 PM
"Lately, he's been doing a lot of what he does. He is back to the Eddie of old," Bavasi said.

And that's why Bavasi traded him with is club just three games off the AL West lead.

oregonred
07-06-2006, 07:33 PM
And that's why Bavasi traded him with is club just three games off the AL West lead.

No more National League games for the Mariners to pile up a bunch of wins :evil:

On the plus side, Bavasi isn't exactly a good GM.

KronoRed
07-06-2006, 07:34 PM
Ahh I also see we have a new catch phrase
"veteran influence" instead of the old "veteran presence"

redsfan30
07-06-2006, 07:35 PM
Remember Eric Milton?

You loved him, and got real nasty towards the folks that didn't.

Remember that?
Yes I do and that was mentioned in my PM to M2 as a mistake on my part.

I appologized to all that I insulted over the Milton fiasco.

StillFunkyB
07-06-2006, 07:57 PM
The FO is at least trying. EG can't do any worse than what the Reds have already.

The plus side, is the Reds are getting cash back in the deal while not really giving up anything.

Nugget
07-06-2006, 08:23 PM
For those people who have been asking, according to th MLB rules, MLPA Agreement and an assumption that there is no deferred money in Guadardo's contract the REDS would have received less than $1 million. We're roughly half way through the season so the REDS would be responsible for paying $3 million so the net salary to Guadardo is $2 million.

As for the trade itself I don't have a great knowledge of Chick's potential to contribute to the REDS but EG also gives us an alternative if Shack needs to take time away from the game.

Jpup
07-06-2006, 09:20 PM
For those people who have been asking, according to th MLB rules, MLPA Agreement and an assumption that there is no deferred money in Guadardo's contract the REDS would have received less than $1 million. We're roughly half way through the season so the REDS would be responsible for paying $3 million so the net salary to Guadardo is $2 million.

As for the trade itself I don't have a great knowledge of Chick's potential to contribute to the REDS but EG also gives us an alternative if Shack needs to take time away from the game.

good logic, but EG will be the closer according to everything I have heard and read.

Johnny Footstool
07-06-2006, 10:32 PM
And that's why Bavasi traded him with is club just three games off the AL West lead.

Traded him away from that pitcher's paradise that is Safeco Field.

Guardado's Home vs. Road splits for 2003-2005, when he was pitching well:



ERA W L SV SVO G GS CG IP H R ER HR BB SO AVG
Away 4.06 2 7 46 57 78 0 0 78.2 73 37 35 13 20 74 .247
Home 1.71 5 3 49 54 87 0 0 89.1 60 22 17 9 23 79 .186



And this season:



ERA W L SV SVO G GS CG IP H R ER HR BB SO AVG
Home 5.73 0 1 1 2 14 0 0 11.0 12 7 7 3 9 9 .286
Away 5.25 1 2 4 6 14 0 0 12.0 17 7 7 5 2 13 .327

He gives up a ton of hits in any park other than Safeco. And his HR/9 makes Eric Milton look like Pedro Martinez.

I do like the fact that he can still strike batters out at a decent rate. That's about all he has going for him, though. I hope it's enough to overcome his extreme flyball tendencies.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-06-2006, 10:47 PM
Traded him away from that pitcher's paradise that is Safeco Field.

Guardado's Home vs. Road splits for 2003-2005, when he was pitching well:



ERA W L SV SVO G GS CG IP H R ER HR BB SO AVG
Away 4.06 2 7 46 57 78 0 0 78.2 73 37 35 13 20 74 .247
Home 1.71 5 3 49 54 87 0 0 89.1 60 22 17 9 23 79 .186



And this season:



ERA W L SV SVO G GS CG IP H R ER HR BB SO AVG
Home 5.73 0 1 1 2 14 0 0 11.0 12 7 7 3 9 9 .286
Away 5.25 1 2 4 6 14 0 0 12.0 17 7 7 5 2 13 .327

He gives up a ton of hits in any park other than Safeco. And his HR/9 makes Eric Milton look like Pedro Martinez.

I do like the fact that he can still strike batters out at a decent rate. That's about all he has going for him, though. I hope it's enough to overcome his extreme flyball tendencies.

Johnny, I'll still take those '03-'05 away numbers, if that's all we get.

Translate those away stats to the NL, and they are even a little better.

Reds Nd2
07-06-2006, 11:15 PM
For those people who have been asking, according to th MLB rules, MLPA Agreement and an assumption that there is no deferred money in Guadardo's contract the REDS would have received less than $1 million.

The trade had to be approved by the Commissioners office. The Mariners are paying the majority of Guardado's remaining salary. No word on just how much though.

KronoRed
07-06-2006, 11:16 PM
Mr.Footstool is mean with his stats :(


;)

traderumor
07-06-2006, 11:21 PM
And that's why Bavasi traded him with is club just three games off the AL West lead.And for a AA baller with an ERA in the mid 4's. My biggest concern with him is the injury, well, and the ERA in the mid 5's. And the age. Veteran presence? I think Weathers is going to be jealous. That's his self-anointed job, unless they're going to DFA him next--a guy can dream :evil:

wheels
07-07-2006, 12:55 AM
I think we should call him "Rico Suave".

Get it?

Guardado, Geraldo?


......Nothin'?

Johnny Footstool
07-07-2006, 01:02 AM
Johnny, I'll still take those '03-'05 away numbers, if that's all we get.

Translate those away stats to the NL, and they are even a little better.

13 HR in 78.2 IPs.

Extreme flyball pitcher.

HR-friendly home ballpark.

It just doesn't bode well.

Johnny Footstool
07-07-2006, 01:02 AM
I think we should call him "Rico Suave".

Get it?

Guardado, Geraldo?


......Nothin'?

(crickets)

reds44
07-07-2006, 01:08 AM
Listen the bullpen market is very scarce. You have to take chances. This was Wayne taking an educated risk. If has closed in the past, and proven he can do it well. If the move works then aweomse, if it doesn't then oh well.

He took a chance on Phillips and Ross, and look how it has turned out.

SteelSD
07-07-2006, 01:13 AM
From 2003 to 2005, here are the numbers:

vs. LH- .470 OPSA, 1 HR every 58 At-Bats
vs. RH- .687 OPSA, 1 HR every 23.42 At-Bats

Here's 2006:

vs. LH- .754 OPSA, 1 HR every 35 AB
vs. RH- 1.103 OPSA, 1 HR every 8.43 AB

What the Reds just acquired is a LOOGY who isn't all that good a LOOGY anymore. Whether that's due to age or injury, I don't really care. His HR rate hasn't been anything resembling decent since 2001 and that's really the only time it's been decent ever. And he's a former Twin. Imagine that. And he's got a bum shoulder.

When guys like Guardado go down, they go down hard because their HR rates increase while they allow more baserunners. Trading anything for a guy like Guardado is less than a 50/50 coin-flip proposition. It's a desperation move from a front office that thinks it can win now by adding a player who most likely can't help the team win now. Ugh.

Caseyfan21
07-07-2006, 01:34 AM
I think this is a desperation move but something had to be done. If Wayne K had done nothing we would all be over him for sitting around and wasting our chance this year. He's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. If anyone honestly thought we would go out and trade for a young, live, shut down closer they are dreaming. To get a premier closer I'm sure the discussion would start with Homer Bailey. Sorry, as much as I want to win this year getting a closer for him is not worth it. Closers come and go year in and year out. A guy like Guardado was lights out and now is nothing. A guy like Jeff Putz is unknown and now a stud.

Getting Guardado will if nothing else give everyone some confidence. Imagine how it feels to be Arroyo knowing you need to go all 9 if you want to be guarenteed a win. At least the Reds have someone who is proven in the closing role. Even if he can't get the job done maybe the initial confidence boost will help.

He certainly, even with his current stats, can't do any worse then the guys being run out there now.

oregonred
07-07-2006, 01:54 AM
What's worse, being called the #30 closer (out of 30) or being called "Tom" instead of Todd...

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5764218

"30. Tom Coffey (LW: 27): There's a reason Reds traded for Easy Eddie."

oregonred
07-07-2006, 01:57 AM
Trading anything for a guy like Guardado is less than a 50/50 coin-flip proposition. It's a desperation move from a front office that thinks it can win now by adding a player who most likely can't help the team win now. Ugh.

Depends if you believe they gave up anything of value or not. Not every roster move is going to rock the world on its foundation, I would consider this some housecleaning that appears to have limited downside.

Move Coffey back to a better role as setup man and see what happens. Good news on the splits is that the Reds rarley seem to lead at home, so he'll get a lot more work on the road...

KronoRed
07-07-2006, 01:57 AM
He took a chance on Phillips and Ross, and look how it has turned out.
He took a chance on Joe Mays:evil:

schroomytunes
07-07-2006, 03:48 AM
I think Guardardo will surprise some people, he is a closer that was demoted, that has to have a negative impact on him. I think he stabilizes the end of the bullpen, with coffey in the 8th, him in the 9th. We now can groom Belisle and Standridge for the 6th-7th innings and still mix in Yan 6-8th. We are in a lot better shape than what we were, and I think you'll see Mays released when Claussen is ready. I still think we need one more arm in the pen, but I'm betting it will come from AAA or the waiver wire(REmlinger).

RedLegSuperStar
07-07-2006, 06:42 AM
Funny the rest of the pen did there job, but now Coffey is strugling.. I don't blame Coffey though.. Narron has got to stop going to him every night.

GAC
07-07-2006, 06:52 AM
I think they would have been better off acquiring these....

http://www.taquitos.net/dbimages13/Gardettos-SnackMix-Orig.jpg

I'm tired of getting these Mariner cast-offs :evil:

Raisor
07-07-2006, 08:19 AM
I

I'm tired of getting these Mariner cast-offs :evil:


Wait a minute, *I* am a Mariner cast-off.

TRF
07-07-2006, 08:55 AM
The Reds had Boston over no such barrel. Boston was as clear-eyed as possible about what they thought of Pena: a 4th outfielder. And he's got nowhere to play now unless Manny succumbs to injury. Pena's not valueless, but his perceived value by some Reds' fans is totally out of whack with the reality of his value in the eyes of other teams.

And Boston was also clear eyed about Arroyo's value. Bullpen. And that was because they favored an aging 300 pound tub of goo in the rotation, and a shellshocked Matt Clement (who IMO needs a change of scenery.)

We've been over this, and I disagree. So, I'll drop it.

princeton
07-07-2006, 09:07 AM
another good add :thumbup:

Chip R
07-07-2006, 09:46 AM
No more National League games for the Mariners to pile up a bunch of wins :evil:

On the plus side, Bavasi isn't exactly a good GM.

That doesn't exactly fill me with confidence if Wayne got schooled by Bavasi.

REDREAD
07-07-2006, 10:19 AM
I knocked it when it happened, I knock it now. If Arroyo goes all Jack Armstrong in the second half, I won't be smiling, and if he gets another 9 wins, I'll still knock the trade as I firmly believe the Reds had Boston over a barrel.
.

If Arroyo finishes with a 4.3 ERA or lower and gives us 180 IP, the trade is still a steal. (An ERA like that means he made plenty of quality starts, which is all this offense needs). If we didn't have Arroyo, we'd have a total disaster in his slot, which would cost us a lot more games than Pena would win for us sitting on the bench. In addition, you'd have Kearns pouting because he has to share playing time.

Pena is a 4th OF. DanO screwed up by holding 4 OFs for so long. It was a stroke of genius for Wayne to grab Arroyo. It will be even more obvious in 2 years. When Pena becomes a free agent, he's going to be a journeyman. I like the guy, but the more I see of him, the more I'm convinced he's the next Glenn Braggs, not the next Sosa.

REDREAD
07-07-2006, 10:25 AM
The Reds had Boston over no such barrel. Boston was as clear-eyed as possible about what they thought of Pena: a 4th outfielder. And he's got nowhere to play now unless Manny succumbs to injury. Pena's not valueless, but his perceived value by some Reds' fans is totally out of whack with the reality of his value in the eyes of other teams.

That sums it up better than I did. There's no way the Reds had Boston over a barrel. A 4th OF that is never a high priority for a contender.
Wayne recognized that Boston had a temporary surplus of pitching and pounced while all the other clubs were passive. Just like Wayne pounced at the chance to get Phillips (when supposedly there were 6-8 other teams interested).

I really don't mind Wayne grabbing Eddie G, Yan, etc and throwing them to the wall to see what happens. Wayne isn't trading any of our blue chip guys. The Carlyle-Kroon trade is a good analogy, because everyone cried over losing Carlyle because he had decent minor league numbers, but in the end Carlyle didn't amount to anything. This trade is likely to be trash for trash.
There is a chance though that one of these bullpen arms Wayne picks up will stick, and maybe give us a start on next year's pen.

gonelong
07-07-2006, 10:36 AM
Put me down on the "likes" side of the ledger for this trade. Guardado might not have much in the tank, but even if he doesn't the trade is a wash at worst. If he does have something left its a major upgrade. If he returns to historical form its a stroke of genius.

Limited to no downside ... lots of room for upside. :thumbup:

GL

Spitball
07-07-2006, 10:43 AM
Put me down on the "likes" side of the ledger for this trade. Guardado might not have much in the tank, but even if he doesn't the trade is a wash at worst. If he does have something left its a major upgrade. If he returns to historical form its a stroke of genius.

Limited to no downside ... lots of room for upside. :thumbup:

GL

Me, too. At least Kriv is out there slapping band-aids on the holes and taking some action before the ship goes down. If there had been a better option, I'm sure he would have made a different move.

NJReds
07-07-2006, 10:47 AM
I don't have a problem with it either. Just this morning there was a report on ESPN radio that there are almost no players available on the trade market, and that it's likely to stay that way until 72 hrs. before the trade deadline (July 31).

The Reds needed help now, and this was a guy who was available. I don't think the Reds gave up all that much. Hopefully EG has something left in the tank.

Redsland
07-07-2006, 10:50 AM
Aren't flyball pitchers very poorly suited for GAB?
Flyball pitchers are not well suited to our ballpark.

Groundball pitchers are not well suited to our defense.

Now what?

:D

M2
07-07-2006, 10:52 AM
While I'm sympathetic that it might be hard to land better options at the moment, if Guardado gets rocked then the trade is not a wash as he'll only be exacerbating the team's bullpen woes.

It would be a wash if he pitched better than what the team's been trotting out, but still somewhere below average (something like a 4.50 ERA). That would be "improvement" without actually adding quality -- no real harm, but no real help either.

Chip R
07-07-2006, 10:57 AM
Flyball pitchers are not well suited to our ballpark.

Groundball pitchers are not well suited to our defense.

Now what?

:D

The answer is obvious: Line drive pitchers. ;)

registerthis
07-07-2006, 11:00 AM
The answer is obvious: Line drive pitchers. ;)

Or pitchers who can induce a lot of bunts.

princeton
07-07-2006, 11:00 AM
While I'm sympathetic that it might be hard to land better options at the moment, if Guardado gets rocked then the trade is not a wash as he'll only be exacerbating the team's bullpen woes.

It would be a wash if he pitched better than what the team's been trotting out.

if he pitches better, then it's not a wash. If he gets hit as hard as everyone else, then it is a wash and he's not exacerbating.

you've been illogical lately

Johnny Footstool
07-07-2006, 11:17 AM
if he pitches better, then it's not a wash. If he gets hit as hard as everyone else, then it is a wash and he's not exacerbating.

you've been illogical lately

The odds of him pitching better are long. Very long. He's got to hope that GAB can hold most of those flyballs he induces. If his K/9 holds up, he has a chance to be successful.

If he gets hit as hard as everyone else, it's not a wash because a 21 year old pitcher with some measure of potential is no longer in the Reds system.

That is, unless you think Travis Chick has no value at all, which would be surprising because he was considered better than any other prospect not named Bailey in the Reds system when they acquired him.

M2
07-07-2006, 11:18 AM
if he pitches better, then it's not a wash. If he gets hit as hard as everyone else, then it is a wash and he's not exacerbating.

you've been illogical lately

It's only illogical if you fail to judge a trade on what it's supposed to achieve.

A trade is supposed to add talent that helps your team. Pitching relatively poorly, but better than awful is not help. It does not give you a player who can contribute positively to an actual winning enterprise. At best it makes you a less-combustible losing enterprise. Have at that all you want, but I want no part of it.

I've never bought into the galloping relativism that posits slightly better than what the Reds have had is somehow desirable.

Which gets me back to my point, if Guardado turns out to be a not-completely-offensive, forgettable pitcher then that's the wash point for the trade.

Pitching as poorly as the rest of the pen exacerbates the situation because it's elongates the amount of time the organization has to suffer through this bullpen nightmare. That's not a wash, it's prolonged agony. Horrible pitching is never a wash. If you stick a guy on the mound and he fails you, then what you've acquired is failure.

Nothing strikes me as more illogical than acquiring players who can't help you win.

Danny Serafini
07-07-2006, 11:19 AM
Well, he isn't going to cost much.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/mariners/story/5917746p-5226770c.html

Seattle also agreed to pay Cincinnati about $2.5 million of the prorated $3.3 million remaining on Guardado’s 2006 contract, according to The Associated Press. Guardado is in the final year of a three-year, $17 million deal.

princeton
07-07-2006, 11:29 AM
The odds of him pitching better are long. Very long.

you've been watching the same Reds, haven't you? it's not asking much to ask for something better.

I'm not a fan of Everyday Eddie as a closer--he's setup all the way-- and even at his best, he never had great stuff. He'll screw up, but he's so good at coming back the next day.

He's not enough to turn disaster into asset, but it's the correct first step.

Gallen5862
07-07-2006, 11:31 AM
$800,000 is not alot to take a chance on Guardado. I am glad that we are at least taking a chance to improve the bullpen.

M2
07-07-2006, 11:36 AM
He's not enough to turn disaster into asset, but it's the correct first step.

Only if he pitches well. Not relatively well, but actually well.

Otherwise it's a step in a pointless direction or it's no step at all.

M2
07-07-2006, 11:43 AM
$800,000 is not alot to take a chance on Guardado. I am glad that we are at least taking a chance to improve the bullpen.

I don't mind that the Reds are willing to take the chance, but this deal needs to progress from taking a chance to delivering some actual quality.

Guardado needs to pan out. If Krivsky's going to trade for a short-termer, that guy needs to provide a legitmate boost to the team.

I'm all for taking a chance. There's numerous pitchers on whom I'd endorse taking a chance. I just think Guardado represents an awfully remote chance. BTW, I'm hoping to be categorically wrong on that front.

captainmorgan07
07-07-2006, 11:45 AM
if he has a good rest of the year anybody think we'll resign him

Johnny Footstool
07-07-2006, 11:49 AM
if he has a good rest of the year anybody think we'll resign him

Does a wild bear etc.?

gonelong
07-07-2006, 11:57 AM
While I'm sympathetic that it might be hard to land better options at the moment, if Guardado gets rocked then the trade is not a wash as he'll only be exacerbating the team's bullpen woes.

I'd say he'll only be continuing them, not exacerbating them.


It would be a wash if he pitched better than what the team's been trotting out, but still somewhere below average (something like a 4.50 ERA). That would be "improvement" without actually adding quality -- no real harm, but no real help either.

I'd take a 4.50 ERA from him. To me that would be productive if we can ride him for 45 innings or so. If he can toss anything in the 3's that substantial improvement over what we have been getting.

GL

Jpup
07-07-2006, 12:00 PM
if he has a good rest of the year anybody think we'll resign him

let's hope not. I hope it works out, but why would you trade a healthy arm for an unhealthy one?

that is what makes little sense to me.

princeton
07-07-2006, 12:02 PM
Only if he pitches well. Not relatively well, but actually well.

Otherwise it's a step in a pointless direction or it's no step at all.

you've made successful arguments in the past. But like Everyday Eddie, you're fading. ;)

M2
07-07-2006, 12:09 PM
you've made successful arguments in the past. But like Everyday Eddie, you're fading. ;)

Apparently you've come to believe that relativism inside the ranks of bad pitching amounts to something. I never have and never will. I find it a distasteful mix of desperation and defeatism.

What I don't hear from you is any confidence that Guardado will do a good job on the mound for the Reds. If that's the case, then we agree. I just don't think it's something worthy of praise.

princeton
07-07-2006, 12:22 PM
\
What I don't hear from you is any confidence that Guardado will do a good job on the mound for the Reds. If that's the case, then we agree. I just don't think it's something worthy of praise.

can't comment; I haven't seen EdG pitch in years.

but I do see that your argument that if-he-pitches-better-than-what-he-replaces-then-he's-not-helping is a poor one.

M2
07-07-2006, 12:23 PM
can't comment; I haven't seen EdG pitch in years.

but I do see that your argument that if-he-pitches-better-than-what-he-replaces-then-he's-not-helping is a poor one.

Since when did you subscribe to the idea that baseball team is supposed to shoot for seventysomething wins?

Me, I'd like the Reds to make moves that can contribute to the team being a winner.

princeton
07-07-2006, 12:30 PM
Since when did you subscribe to the idea that baseball team is supposed to shoot for seventysomething wins?

I've long subscribed to the theory that the Reds are about 3-4 moves away from winning. I can't argue when they attempt to make one of those moves. It's tough to make four at once.

they might not be able to make the other 2-3 moves, either because of lack of partners or because they drop out of the race by then. But I like that they're trying to get something out of current major league talent. Plus there's still time to move EdG (along with several other major leaguers) somewhere else. EdG can be a nice piece to a bigger trade that actually nets prospects from a true contender

Jpup
07-07-2006, 12:34 PM
I've long subscribed to the theory that the Reds are about 3-4 moves away from winning. I can't argue when they attempt to make one of those moves. It's tough to make four at once.

they might not be able to make the other 2-3 moves, either because of lack of partners or because they drop out of the race by then. But I like that they're trying to get something out of current major league talent. Plus there's still time to move EdG (along with several other major leaguers) somewhere else. EdG can be a nice piece to a bigger trade that actually nets prospects from a true contender

The problem is that St. Louis is trying to give the Reds the division, but they won't let them. :help:

M2
07-07-2006, 12:38 PM
I've long subscribed to the theory that the Reds are about 3-4 moves away from winning. I can't argue when they attempt to make one of those moves. It's tough to make four at once.

they might not be able to make the other 2-3 moves, either because of lack of partners or because they drop out of the race by then. But I like that they're trying to get something out of current major league talent. Plus there's still time to move EdG (along with several other major leaguers) somewhere else. EdG can be a nice piece to a bigger trade that actually nets prospects from a true contender

Again, he has the trade value only if he pitches well. Otherwise you can maybe trade him for a Travis Chick replacement (AA #4 starter). Yippee.

I'm not the one trying to invent a false justification for why it makes sense to trade for a below average pitcher. I've never had a use for the argument that a pitcher will be bad, but not so bad. If Guardado can't deliver above average results on the mound then he's not one of the three or four moves the team needs to make.

Big Klu
07-07-2006, 12:41 PM
Any word yet on who goes to make room for Guardado on the roster?

Jpup
07-07-2006, 12:42 PM
Any word yet on who goes to make room for Guardado on the roster?

Gosling went back to Louisville.

Chip R
07-07-2006, 12:43 PM
Any word yet on who goes to make room for Guardado on the roster?

Gosling, I believe.

Johnny Footstool
07-07-2006, 12:50 PM
Again, he has the trade value only if he pitches well. Otherwise you can maybe trade him a Travis Chick replacement (AA #4 starter). Yippee.


As an aside, Travis Chick is completely miscast as a starter. He has two plus pitches and no third pitch. That makes him bullpen material.

Of course, that's a bad thing, because it's incredibly easy to find quality major league relievers. Just look at all the talent in the Reds bullpen.

...

This is what baffles me about the Reds organization. They're desperate for starting pitching AND bullpen help, but they seem reluctant to develop relievers unless the players were drafted as such (like Wagner). Are they afraid that they'll hinder the development of a two-pitch pitcher like Chick by putting him in the AA bullpen instead of the rotation?

Falls City Beer
07-07-2006, 12:55 PM
This Guardado pick up reminds me of Bowden's acquisition of Lee Smith on his last legs in 96? 97?

M2
07-07-2006, 12:55 PM
The knock I've heard on Chick is that he has zero plus pitches and that he's gone the way of Bubba Nelson in terms of disappearing stuff.

I wish the organization would stick Pelland in the pen though. He's never going to make it as a starter.

redsrule2500
07-07-2006, 01:26 PM
I feel sick after these recent losses and came in this thread to hide from the agony.

VR
07-07-2006, 02:47 PM
This Guardado pick up reminds me of Bowden's acquisition of Lee Smith on his last legs in 96? 97?

sadly, that Lee Smith would be closing on this club. Seriously.

CTA513
07-07-2006, 03:07 PM
Any word on who will be getting booted from the team to make room for Guardado?

Marc D
07-07-2006, 03:08 PM
sadly, that Lee Smith would be closing on this club. Seriously.

You could go find Lee Smith right now and assuming he's still alive, he's our closer.

KronoRed
07-07-2006, 03:17 PM
This Guardado pick up reminds me of Bowden's acquisition of Lee Smith on his last legs in 96? 97?
The original veteran influence

CTA513
07-07-2006, 04:41 PM
Tonights game starts in about 3 hours and we havent heard who was given the boot to make room for Guardado.

reds44
07-07-2006, 05:03 PM
Looking at the depth chart on reds.com (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/depth_chart/index.jsp?c_id=cin) it appears as if Gosling was the one who was sent down. It says it was last updated July 7th (today), and EverydayE is on there but not Gosling.

registerthis
07-07-2006, 05:04 PM
The original veteran influence

I thought that was Vince Coleman?

CTA513
07-07-2006, 05:07 PM
Looking at the depth chart on reds.com (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/depth_chart/index.jsp?c_id=cin) it appears as if Gosling was the one who was sent down. It says it was last updated July 7th (today), and EverydayE is on there but not Gosling.

It will probably be Gosling that goes, but hes still listed on the active roster.

wheels
07-07-2006, 05:26 PM
The best we can hope for in Guardado is what Weathers provided before he started pitching on a bum arm or whatever.

Weathers was walking a tight rope, so will Guardado.....But Guardado is more homer prone.

Doesn't look good.

reds44
07-07-2006, 05:27 PM
What is Eddie's best pitch? What are his pitches? If I am correct, he strikes out a decent amount of guys so he is to have some at least decent stuff.

Johnny Footstool
07-07-2006, 05:54 PM
What is Eddie's best pitch? What are his pitches? If I am correct, he strikes out a decent amount of guys so he is to have some at least decent stuff.

His strikeout rate is his main bright spot. If it stays intact, he has a chance to succeed.

CTA513
07-07-2006, 06:29 PM
Gosling was optioned back to AAA according to Marcs blog:


Oh, and Michael Gosling was optioned back to Louisville to make room for Guardado, who arrived at the clubhouse around 5:00. A sheer delight, Mr. Guardado. He was very warmly greeted by former teammates Joe Mays, Eric Milton, Rich Aurilia and Javy Valentin...not to mention everybody else.

oregonred
07-07-2006, 08:08 PM
I think we get lost in how shallow pitching and position depth is in MLB...

Here are the credentials of 50% of the pitchers currently on the active 25-man roster for a $220M payroll team residing in the Bronx, NY

1) Kris Wilson -- A soon-to-be-30 yr old Royals castoff, 5.28 career ERA
2) TJ Beam -- A soon to be 26 yr old rookie with a 10.13 ERA with 8 IP, 14H since his callup on 6/17
3) Shawn Chacon -- 13 GS, 6.71 ERA, 53 IP, 66H, 31BB, 30K
Others of note
4) Scott Procter is a 29 year old career 5.38 ERA guy actually having a decent year with a 4.58 ERA
5) 36-year old lefty Ron Villone is also manning their pen, and having a pretty good year
6) Jaret Wright has started 13 games this season with a respectable 4.61 ERA (career 5.13 ERA guy)

And some notes on six of the Pinstripes position players currently on their 25-man...

1) 36-year old Kelly Stinnett is their backup catcher (plugging away at a cool clip under .600 OPS)
2) 32-year old journey man Miguel Cairo is an infielder utilty man posting a .629 OPS this season (.680 career).
3) What can I say about 29-year old Andy Phillips (and his career .674 OPS)?
4) Lest we forget about 30-year old OF Bobby Crosby trolling along at a sub .550 OPS this season,
5) Of course they have the illustrious OF Aaron Guiel who at 34 continues to somehow take a roster spot
6) We conclude with the young, and seemingly .700 OPSish Melky Carbrera as another high powered OF backup

Next time we all cry about housecleaning and low risk deals like Guardado and some of the chaffe manning the bottom of the Reds roster that gets undo attention, remember that 10-12 guys on the Yankee 25-man $200M+ roster are a bunch of collective and forgetful "piles of blech"...

Gallen5862
07-07-2006, 11:11 PM
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today...int261891.html
Reds Hope Guardado Can Help Bullpen
By Jim Callis
July 6, 2006


For the second time in two days, a National League Central contender tried to shore up its pitching by adding a struggling veteran. After the Cardinals acquired Jeff Weaver for their rotation on Wednesday, the Reds countered Thursday by picking up Eddie Guardado from the Mariners for Double-A righthander Travis Chick. Seattle also included roughly $2.5 million to defray part of Guardado's remaining salary.

A 35-year-old lefthander who has made two all-star teams, Guardado lost his closer's role with the Mariners this year but will finish games for the Reds. Cincinnati had been using Todd Coffey, but he hasn't been nearly as effective as he had been as a setup man. Guardado's fastball, slider and splitter are average pitches at best, and he relies mostly on heart. That hasn't worked for him much in 2006, as he has gone 1-3, 5.48 in 28 games while converting just five of eight save opportunities. He has a 22-11 K-BB ratio in 23 innings, but opponents are batting .309 with eight homers against him. Guardado is making $6.25 million this year in the final season of a three-year, $14.25 million contract, after which he'll become a free agent. He has a career record of 41-55, 4.31 with 175 saves in 766 major league games.

Chick is no stranger to being traded after being included in deals for Ismael Valdez in 2004 and Joe Randa in 2005. A 14th-round pick out of a Texas high school in 2002, Chick has a low-90s fastball and a hard slider that's a solid-average pitch when it's on. His changeup and control need work, however, and he has leveled off since reaching Double-A in 2005. This season, he has gone 4-5, 4.61 in 16 starts at Chattanooga. He has a 77-36 K-BB ratio, .249 opponent average and 12 homers allowed in 84 innings.

<< Trade Central 2006

Eric_Davis
07-08-2006, 01:48 PM
Since this will be Guardado's first stint in the NL, he will have the upper advantage.

It only took me about 20 comments to find a positive post.

Keep in mind everyone that the REDS by far have the absolute worst bullpen in the entire Major League,....any way you want to look at it.

So, getting a veteran with his past success, albeit recent arm troubles and lost confidence, has to be better than at leasst two or three guys currently in the pen, especially when you consider what Krusty posted.

The worst thing to do was to stand pat and "go to war with what we have," alla Mike Brown.

If he gives us three good outings out of every four times he goes out to pitch, then he's doing far better than the majority of pitchers currently in this bullpen.

Eric_Davis
07-08-2006, 01:52 PM
IIRC, he's in the midst of pitching through a torn labrum. After being diagnosed, he chose the rehab route as opposed to surgery.

Don't have a link, but I believe Thom Brennaman mentioned it when he came in to pitch for the Mariners against the D'backs.

Very true, as most of you know that success is 50-50 going this route...he may still need the surgery this off-season, but if he can smoke and mirror three good outings out of every four he goes out there, then he's been a "HUGE" success when the bar is set so low for this bullpen.

Eric_Davis
07-08-2006, 01:56 PM
Obviously Travis Chick wasn't the answer either.

He's another arm that looks like Seattle is paying us to off their hands. He might be good for a few rounds in the NL.

Where do you think relief pitchers come from? Costco? Geez, yeah it sucks that we can't get the quality, but if Jeff Weaver's getting tossed for Low A crap and there is fighting over Jason Johnson, well, what else is there?

I mean sure I'd love to have Scot Shields or Dan Wheeler or Neal Cotts or Aaron Heilman, but those guys are GOOD and at a PREMIUM and we don't have the depth to trade for those guys.

Put me down as OK with the deal. If it pans out, WayneK's a genius. At least he's doing SOMETHING. And if he sucks, (which he will probably do anyway) pull up this thread and smile at me and tell me "We told you so".


Another voice of reason.

Good move Wayne...you've been a bright light in Cincinnati.

Eric_Davis
07-08-2006, 02:04 PM
Wow...people beg and beg for a change in the bullpen and one is made and it gets ripped. Eddie is a guy who has been successful most of his career and is having a bit of a rough go the last couple of months. As far as I'm concerned, any change is a good change.

I think we all need to take a deep breath and give this trade the benefit of the doubt. Young, flame throwers are not avaliable. The teams that have those type of player don't part with them.

I know...Unbelievable negativism throughout this post. As horrible as the REDS bullpen is, any change is a good change.