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nkufan
07-06-2006, 10:57 PM
I dont mean to be mean but Todd Coffey is complete garbage. He was garabge last year and for the last month and half he has been absolute trash

redsfan30
07-06-2006, 10:59 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This is a garbage post.

HumnHilghtFreel
07-06-2006, 10:59 PM
UGHHHH...
that's all I have to say right now... another huge comeback down the drain

6-4-3
07-06-2006, 11:00 PM
This is a garbage post

It's basically true though. It's unreal how many games this pen has blow, I mean my goodness. I don't know how Narron doesn't fight somebody.

reds44
07-06-2006, 11:01 PM
Right now he does.

Hopefully he breaks out of it.

nkufan
07-06-2006, 11:01 PM
what makes it garbage what is done of last besides blow games?

redsfan30
07-06-2006, 11:02 PM
It's obvious he's not a closer...we all thought he was, but as of right now, he's anything but that.

But to call him "garbage"....:rolleyes:

Team Clark
07-06-2006, 11:03 PM
When he stops tipping his pitches (the worst in baseball right now) then maybe he can regain his consistency. Everybody in the ballpark knows what is coming. Great work by the Advance scouts nailing him down to a science.

nkufan
07-06-2006, 11:05 PM
Ok i will take back that I let fustrated get the best of me i know he is trying but i do wonder they threw jeff f a strike because i think he had me struck out with his breaking stuff

reds44
07-06-2006, 11:05 PM
It's obvious he's not a closer...we all thought he was, but as of right now, he's anything but that.

But to call him "garbage"....:rolleyes:
He wasn't even closing tonight.

I agree he isn't garbage.

redlegs7089
07-06-2006, 11:05 PM
im berate right now and absolutely sick of this, why does this happen every year

MWM
07-06-2006, 11:06 PM
These types of comments (calling a player garbage) are an embarassment. You really need to gain a little perspective if you are so consumed with baseball that you'd publicly call another person, and a good person at that, a piece of garbage.

captainmorgan07
07-06-2006, 11:08 PM
being closer has done something to todd's mentality and he needs to get his old one back from earlier in the year i think it was the pressure and the 9th inning thing before he could pitch in any inning in any jam and have no problem

traderumor
07-06-2006, 11:15 PM
I dont mean to be mean but Todd Coffey is complete garbage. He was garabge last year and for the last month and half he has been absolute trash"Honey, I'm not trying to be mean, but you're absolute trailer trash." Try that one on you're spouse/significant other and see if they agree with what you're trying to be. ;)

Razor Shines
07-06-2006, 11:22 PM
I'd say the way he is pitching is "garbage", or I'd probably just say he's pitching horribly right now. Hate the sin not the sinner. And what he's done the last two nights has definitely been sinful.

reds1869
07-06-2006, 11:25 PM
Coffey will be OK again. He needs to move back to middle relief and be brought in to put out other people's fires. He doesn't do nearly as well when he starts an inning of his own.

Edit: I don't think calling someone garbage is the best way to get your point accross. Friends and family members of the players post on here (I know Todd's brother reads a lot of these threads) and don't need to read that kind of belittlement. If you have something constructive to say, fine. But the player bashing on here lately has gotten way out of hand. It's like Jim rome and Colin Cowherd suddenly registered under 200 different user names on RedsZone.

Cedric
07-06-2006, 11:29 PM
"Honey, I'm not trying to be mean, but you're absolute trailer trash." Try that one on you're spouse/significant other and see if they agree with what you're trying to be. ;)

Reminds me of a clip of a Maury Povich show being spread all over the internet right now with youtube.

A guy caught his wife cheating and he says verbatim "Maury, I love my wife but she's a dirty *****.

Brilliant.

Razor Shines
07-07-2006, 12:21 AM
When he stops tipping his pitches (the worst in baseball right now) then maybe he can regain his consistency. Everybody in the ballpark knows what is coming. Great work by the Advance scouts nailing him down to a science.
If you know this and apparently the rest of the league knows this, why don't the Reds? And if they do why send him out there until he becomes more discreet.

Superdude
07-07-2006, 12:26 AM
I don't mean to be overly optimistic here, but at least Coffey was throwing strikes with his slider and changeup tonight. There for a while he almost went strictly with the heater and was getting beaten around like crazy. He had both Renteria and Jones looking stupid on that slider tonight.

Mixing up all his pitches was his key early in the year and it looked like he was getting back on track tonight.

Jpup
07-07-2006, 12:33 AM
When he stops tipping his pitches (the worst in baseball right now) then maybe he can regain his consistency. Everybody in the ballpark knows what is coming. Great work by the Advance scouts nailing him down to a science.

please explain. they said the same thing about Danny Graves too.

gonelong
07-07-2006, 01:18 AM
IMO ... if you haven't negged the orginal post, you are getting the Redszone you deserve.

GL

nkufan
07-07-2006, 01:31 AM
I like to apoligize to todd coffey and his family. I let the emotionals of another tough keep the best me. Todd has been very good this season he has just hit a rough spell over the last couple weeks just the rest of the bullpen. Hopefully with additonal of eddie g he can go back into the role he excelled at early this year and the reds can right the ship. The season is for sure not lost this team has character they just need catch a break in atlanta to get some momentum back.

jimbo
07-07-2006, 01:36 AM
I dont mean to be mean but Todd Coffey is complete garbage. He was garabge last year and for the last month and half he has been absolute trash

fickle (fik'l), adj., changeable or unstable in affection, interest, etc.; capricious; inconstant; see cincinnati reds fans.

reds44
07-07-2006, 01:37 AM
IMO ... if you haven't negged the orginal post, you are getting the Redszone you deserve.

GL
I would have, but I have given out too many rep points today.

There is always tomorrow.

gonelong
07-07-2006, 01:45 AM
I'd venture to say we have all been angry and emotional over Reds losses at one point in our lives, its understandable with the investment we all put into following the organization.

I am glad that you had a chance to cool down and see that you have realized where you have errored.

Stick around and contribute, I think you'll like the place.

GL



There once lived a small boy who had a very bad temper. So his father gave him a bag of nails and told him that every time he got angry and rage got hold of him he should pound a nail into the fence behind the house.

During the first day the boy drove in 37 nails. Over several weeks however he learned to control his anger and the number of pounded nails gradually lessened. He realized that it was much less work to control his anger than to pound nails into the fence. And finally the day arrived when the boy didn't pound a single nail behind the house. He announced this news to his father who said to him that on each day like that, when didn't lose his temper, he should pull a nail out of the fence.


Time flew by and there came a day when the boy was able to say to his father that not a single nail remained in the fence. So the father took the boy by the hand and said:

"You did well, son. But look at the holes left in the fence by those nails. This fence will never be the same again. When you say something in anger, it leaves holes like this in a person. Just as if you stuck a knife into a person and pulled it out again. It doesn't matter how many times you say you're very sorry. The wound remains and though caused only by words, it hurts all the same.

gonelong
07-07-2006, 01:51 AM
I would have, but I have given out too many rep points today.

There is always tomorrow.

Fantastic. :)

In defense of nkufan ... 98% of internet message boards wouldn't even notice that type of post. It takes a bit of time getting used to the fact that this board rises above the fray. Once people realize this they generally will be ok with posting in this manner.

IMO we all too often are overlooking the fact that a few well placed neg points will alert a poster that isn't the type of post that will be valued on this board.

GL

redsin2006
07-07-2006, 01:57 AM
I wouldn't say coffee sucks, I'd say he's not pitching well. Think about how many times he gets 0-2 counts and then blows it.

kheidg-
07-07-2006, 03:30 AM
There is only Reds Live! for one reason, and this it is.

RisingReds
07-07-2006, 03:47 AM
Ok i will take back that I let fustrated get the best of me i know he is trying but i do wonder they threw jeff f a strike because i think he had me struck out with his breaking stuff

why would you take it back? you're absolutely right, this has been absolutely ridiculous, and unreal! if this bullpen was even... mediocre, they would probably be 10+ games over .500, at this level its not about trying any more, everyone is trying, he wasn't that good last year, had a good month this year, and is back to old form again. don't get me wrong i like this team as a whole, everything is solid in my opinion except for the bullpen, but it is a major problem that MUST be fixed if this team wants to make a legitimate run at the world series, or even the playoffs, and lately todd coffey has been the ring leader of the circus, but i guess it doesn't matter who is in that role, because there isn't one pitcher in it that can consistently get outs when needed.

He got it!
07-07-2006, 08:07 AM
I thought Coffey threw really well last night even though the end result was not what we wanted. He was really challenging the hitters and going right after them. He absolutely schooled A.Jones for his second strikeout of the inning. He made a good pitch to Chipper also but Chipper being the All-Star he is just did a better job of hitting and went with the pitch. The whole inning he was throwing strike after strike pounding the strike zone which is a nice change from the rest of our bullpen who tends to nibble. One thing about Coffey he is not going to be intimidated out there.

bigdaddy
07-07-2006, 08:13 AM
He should have been arrested after the game.

Krusty
07-07-2006, 08:19 AM
Some of the great setup men make lousy closers. I think Coffey will be more comfortable setting up Guardado which will bolster the bullpen greatly.

Krusty
07-07-2006, 08:19 AM
He should have been arrested after the game.

You would think a remark like that should be put on Cincinnati.com.

15fan
07-07-2006, 09:22 AM
When he stops tipping his pitches (the worst in baseball right now) then maybe he can regain his consistency. Everybody in the ballpark knows what is coming. Great work by the Advance scouts nailing him down to a science.

Paging Mr. Tom Hume...Mr. Hume, you have a call on Line 1...Paging Mr. Tom Hume...

registerthis
07-07-2006, 09:22 AM
I mean I don't mean to be mean, but this thread is absolute garbage.

lollipopcurve
07-07-2006, 09:40 AM
I don't know what has happened to Coffey's downbreaking stuff. Seems like early in the year he had something (a splitter or two-seamer?) he could get guys to swing over. Unless I'm missing something, he doesn't have that now -- looks like 4 seamers and sliders now, and way too many pitches are right there belt-high.

Has there been a repertoire change?

Superdude
07-07-2006, 10:14 AM
like 4 seamers and sliders now, and way too many pitches are right there belt-high.

Has there been a repertoire change?

It seems like he's almost abandoned his changeup since being converted to closing. Not sure why.

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 10:29 AM
If you know this and apparently the rest of the league knows this, why don't the Reds? And if they do why send him out there until he becomes more discreet.

This is one facet of the organization that has not changed but I feel soon will. Most of the Reds scouting dept and front office people are infallible. You could look them dead in the eye and present them with fact and they will say right back that it is fiction. Ok then. Have it your way.

I have e-mailed the info about Coffey to two of the Reds coaches I have known for quite some time. (why not, they are not going to play us) No response and certainly they have not applied what I have seen and so many others have as well. I didn't just e-mail this info yesterday. I sent this back when they played Cleveland the first time. The advance staff for St. Louis were the first to catch it that I know of. Funny thing is I saw Coffey about three days later on TV and saw it on his 2nd batter. Nothing has changed since.

MWM
07-07-2006, 10:30 AM
There is only Reds Live! for one reason, and this it is.

Hey kheidg, what part of Minnesota? I just moved to the St. MIchael - Albertville area.

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 10:32 AM
Paging Mr. Tom Hume...Mr. Hume, you have a call on Line 1...Paging Mr. Tom Hume...

Sent the info with no response. You know... it's not like I'm some guy off the street.... Did the same thing with Steve Parris, Todd Jones and a select few others. I guess I'm dumber than I look!!:laugh:

BuckeyeRedleg
07-07-2006, 10:46 AM
Team Clark. What is he specifically doing to give it away?

gonelong
07-07-2006, 10:54 AM
Team Clark. What is he specifically doing to give it away?

ooohhh, a test ... nicely done.

GL

/runs off to grab some popcorn and pulls up a chair.

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 11:17 AM
Team Clark. What is he specifically doing to give it away?


Ok... I will try to give as much visual reference as possible. It's best if you go get a ball and glove. Go from the stretch and come to the set. (please do not throw the baseball as I will not pay for your new sliding glass door)

Coffey when throwing a slider grips the slider to the side. Meaning he puts two fingers together, finds the inner seams and turns his hand to the side as if he were making a backwards C with his hand. When you do this at the "set" a pitcher has a tendency to turn his glove in to conceal. Coffey turns his glove thumbside in and further tips the top of the glove over/towards the body consistently when throwing a slider. I saw him reaching in and turning his hand. Mike Pazik, Royals advance scout, caught the glove tipping. Hence, tipping his pitches. (Matt Stairs says THANK YOU)

Coffey's fastball is the easiest to pick up because it is so routine. Glove normal, centered on the body. Basicall a straight "set". Kind of like at the batting cages, you get the timing of the machine the same way.

His change, which has been pounded and now rarely thrown was REALLY dramatic. Hand is deeper into the glove (to the web) to maintain grip, forcing the glove DOWN and away from the body. I saw him try to correct this once by pulling his glove up center but he already gave it away. Don Poplin, Cleveland Indians Advance scout and I both got this in varying degrees.

His split he holds at the bottom of his glove. I have seen him vary from holding the split in his hand and also going to the glove to get the grip. He was better off with it in his hand. He really digs the ball into the web of his finger and uses the heel of the glove to do it. Problem is he pulls his glove close to his body and LEAVES it there a majority of the time. In order to get that ball into a split finger position and use the glove a fair amount of resistance is needed. Myself, Bill Harford and Mike Jorgensen of the St. Louis Cardinals got this on two different trips.

Go ahead and try it in your glove and you will see what I am talking about. Try a 4 seam fastball. With ball in the glove, take a sign, then finger your pitch (no comments here) and come to the set. Pretty natural. Now do the same with a split. There's a noticeable difference. It's momentary and someone who is watching can pick it up. Guys like the Rocket are masters at making it all look te same. El Duque too.

Hope this helps. Coffey is pretty darn consistent with tipping. I'd say he does this "noticeably" on 7 out of 10 pitches. He's also "twirling" or "pulling off" when he throws his slider. This slows the slider down and makes it flatten out. That can be fixed in one bullpen session.

redsfan30
07-07-2006, 11:26 AM
That's interesting stuff, TC.

redsfan4445
07-07-2006, 11:28 AM
i copied what you said TC and sent it to his brother on here.. hope he reads it.. The reds need all the help they can get... now can you fix Weathers, and the rest of the pen for Redszone????LOL

BuckeyeRedleg
07-07-2006, 11:36 AM
Ok... I will try to give as much visual reference as possible. It's best if you go get a ball and glove. Go from the stretch and come to the set. (please do not throw the baseball as I will not pay for your new sliding glass door)

Coffey when throwing a slider grips the slider to the side. Meaning he puts two fingers together, finds the inner seams and turns his hand to the side as if he were making a backwards C with his hand. When you do this at the "set" a pitcher has a tendency to turn his glove in to conceal. Coffey turns his glove thumbside in and further tips the top of the glove over/towards the body consistently when throwing a slider. I saw him reaching in and turning his hand. Mike Pazik, Royals advance scout, caught the glove tipping. Hence, tipping his pitches. (Matt Stairs says THANK YOU)

Coffey's fastball is the easiest to pick up because it is so routine. Glove normal, centered on the body. Basicall a straight "set". Kind of like at the batting cages, you get the timing of the machine the same way.

His change, which has been pounded and now rarely thrown was REALLY dramatic. Hand is deeper into the glove (to the web) to maintain grip, forcing the glove DOWN and away from the body. I saw him try to correct this once by pulling his glove up center but he already gave it away. Don Poplin, Cleveland Indians Advance scout and I both got this in varying degrees.

His split he holds at the bottom of his glove. I have seen him vary from holding the split in his hand and also going to the glove to get the grip. He was better off with it in his hand. He really digs the ball into the web of his finger and uses the heel of the glove to do it. Problem is he pulls his glove close to his body and LEAVES it there a majority of the time. In order to get that ball into a split finger position and use the glove a fair amount of resistance is needed. Myself, Bill Harford and Mike Jorgensen of the St. Louis Cardinals got this on two different trips.

Go ahead and try it in your glove and you will see what I am talking about. Try a 4 seam fastball. With ball in the glove, take a sign, then finger your pitch (no comments here) and come to the set. Pretty natural. Now do the same with a split. There's a noticeable difference. It's momentary and someone who is watching can pick it up. Guys like the Rocket are masters at making it all look te same. El Duque too.

Hope this helps. Coffey is pretty darn consistent with tipping. I'd say he does this "noticeably" on 7 out of 10 pitches. He's also "twirling" or "pulling off" when he throws his slider. This slows the slider down and makes it flatten out. That can be fixed in one bullpen session.

Great info. Thanks.

I will be watching more closely and hope that this bit of info is relayed straight to the source.

I would hope it is corrected ASAP.

edit to add- That if it is corrected, due to this post (and subsequent forward to Coffey's bro-then to Coffey), then shame on you Tommy "Boom-Boom" Hume. Shame on anyone that didn't relay this to Coffey sooner.

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 11:36 AM
i copied what you said TC and sent it to his brother on here.. hope he reads it.. The reds need all the help they can get... now can you fix Weathers, and the rest of the pen for Redszone????LOL


Glad to help. Even though I work in the AL I will always be a Reds fan.

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 11:37 AM
Like Marge said "all they do is get paid to sit around and watch ball games" LOL!

redsfan4445
07-07-2006, 11:38 AM
Like Marge said "all they do is get paid to sit around and watch ball games" LOL!

i would love to do that... and pick up trade secrets on what to look for on the field :)

Redsland
07-07-2006, 11:39 AM
That's fascinating insight, TCII.

Thanks for the peek "behind the scenes."

:thumbup:

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 11:42 AM
That's fascinating insight, TCII.

Thanks for the peek "behind the scenes."

:thumbup:

I have TONS more. Great stuff on Catro/Lopez. Kearns, Dunn, Phillips, Freel evaluations. Really technical breakdown "stuff" that you can see during a game. May make listening to George and Chris more bearable.

WMR
07-07-2006, 11:42 AM
Hey, Team Clark, What do you think about Jerry Narron as a manager? (if you don't mind giving your opinion)

BuckeyeRedleg
07-07-2006, 11:43 AM
Actually, he shouldn't "correct" this immediately. He should mess with hitters for a while.

Give them a certain "tip" and then throw something else.....until they (and the scouts) catch on.

Jr's Boy
07-07-2006, 11:44 AM
His offspeed stuff is great,and kept the Braves hitters off balance,Chip Carey alluded to that.It's when he throws the heater he's not locating it as well.If Coffey would study some of these teams hitters a little I believe he would do alot better.As much as a free swinger Francouer is,with two strikes I would have tried to get him too chase,or threw the high heat.

Benny-Distefano
07-07-2006, 11:44 AM
This whole thing would have been a non-issue if the original poster just would have said

"Coffey's pitching is garbage."

Maybe Coffey is a good guy, maybe Coffey is garbage. I dont know the guy personally. One thing I do know though...

"Coffey's pitching is garbage."
Along with the rest of the batting tees we call "the 2006 Cincinnati Reds Bullpen."

He could have phrased it better, but the sentiment is spot on.

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 11:48 AM
Actually, he shouldn't "correct" this immediately. He should mess with hitters for a while.

Give them a certain "tip" and then throw something else.....until they (and the scouts) catch on.


I'd go along with that!!!

Also, I think Narron is doing a very good job. He has the respect of his players and he is doing the best he can with a decent ballclub. It's not like they are in last place. It's sad that people rag on him. Baseball is a game of chance in many ways and I am astounded that so many second guess him. Then again that is what baseball is all about. Debate.

BTW I almost have my Jerry Narron imitation down to perfection. One or two more pre game shows on my XM and I'll have it. I got Sr. with it twice already.

NJReds
07-07-2006, 11:53 AM
It's sad that people rag on him.

Message boards are just a virtual water cooler. Before the Internet, a few people would complain about their respective teams during a coffee break at work.

IowaRed
07-07-2006, 11:59 AM
I have TONS more. Great stuff on Catro/Lopez. Kearns, Dunn, Phillips, Freel evaluations. Really technical breakdown "stuff" that you can see during a game. May make listening to George and Chris more bearable.

TC, your insight is fascinating and I really appreciate your contributions to this site, although I'm not sure there is anything that could make listening to GG more bearable. Just curious, to what do you attribute the non-responsiveness of the Reds coaches to your emails? Ego, I'm guessing.
Also, could it be that the Reds, up to this point, have been pleased enough with Coffey that they didn't want to make too many changes, i.e. give him too much to think about out there? I'm assuming they would be more likely to work on his mechanics during bullpen sessions rather than presentation

Maybe a new forum on here, something like "Ask TC"????

Jpup
07-07-2006, 12:14 PM
I have TONS more. Great stuff on Catro/Lopez. Kearns, Dunn, Phillips, Freel evaluations. Really technical breakdown "stuff" that you can see during a game. May make listening to George and Chris more bearable.

well? :D

btw, I know you played back in the day correct? What years and with who?

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 12:20 PM
TC, your insight is fascinating and I really appreciate your contributions to this site, although I'm not sure there is anything that could make listening to GG more bearable. Just curious, to what do you attribute the non-responsiveness of the Reds coaches to your emails? Ego, I'm guessing.
Also, could it be that the Reds, up to this point, have been pleased enough with Coffey that they didn't want to make too many changes, i.e. give him too much to think about out there? I'm assuming they would be more likely to work on his mechanics during bullpen sessions rather than presentation

Maybe a new forum on here, something like "Ask TC"????

Honestly, they probably have not even checked their e-mail. I'll attribute it to that. These two guys I have known for a long, long time. If it's ego, well then I don't know what to say.

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 12:25 PM
well? :D

btw, I know you played back in the day correct? What years and with who?

Ohhh man. Please don't look up my stats. I'm a SABR nightmare.:laugh: :evil:

Pirate minor leaguer 92-93. Mets organization coach 95-98. Expos scout. 98-99 Anaheim Angels coach 2002. Florence Freedom prison inmate 2003. 2004 Well needed vacation. 2005 Player Development this season Tampa Bay dual role in Scouting and Player Development.

Jpup
07-07-2006, 12:25 PM
Honestly, they probably have not even checked their e-mail. I'll attribute it to that. These two guys I have known for a long, long time. If it's ego, well then I don't know what to say.

send it to Krivsky.

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 12:27 PM
send it to Krivsky.

I would get fired.

Jpup
07-07-2006, 12:27 PM
Ohhh man. Please don't look up my stats. I'm a SABR nightmare.:laugh: :evil:

Pirate minor leaguer 92-93. Mets organization coach 95-98. Expos scout. 98-99 Anaheim Angels coach 2002. Florence Freedom prison inmate 2003. 2004 Well needed vacation. 2005 Player Development this season Tampa Bay dual role in Scouting and Player Development.

well, I thought you played for the Reds at one point. I was trying to figure out who you were. :laugh: :laugh:

thanks.

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 12:29 PM
well, I thought you played for the Reds at one point. I was trying to figure out who you were. :laugh: :laugh:

thanks.

Nope. I had media credentials for a few years and covered Cincy for 2 seasons.

Jpup
07-07-2006, 12:29 PM
I would get fired.

I'll tell you what, send it to me and then I'll send it to him. :lol: j/k, I didn't think about that.

You should get your foot in the door with the new Reds' brass. I think there are going to be changing a whole bunch of people in the offseason.

gonelong
07-07-2006, 12:32 PM
I have TONS more. Great stuff on Catro/Lopez. Kearns, Dunn, Phillips, Freel evaluations. Really technical breakdown "stuff" that you can see during a game. May make listening to George and Chris more bearable.

I'd be interested in all of them if/when you get the time or inclination to post them. I'll be watching Coffey closely tonight.

One of my buddies and I used to do this all the time when we attended games. It was fun when you could pick something up, but most of the guys are incredibly good about everything looking the same, they have to be. I ought to keep a few games TiVo'd ... I bet it'd be pretty easy to go back and pick things up that way.

GL

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 12:35 PM
I didn't think about that. I'll tell you what, send it to me and then I'll send it to him. :lol: j/k, I didn't think about that.

You should get your foot in the door with the new Reds' brass. I think there are going to be changing a whole bunch of people in the offseason.

It would be a nice opportunity and I think I would really like working with Krivsky. I spoke to Johnny Alamaraz recently and he knows of "roughly" 16 contracts of front office, scouting and player development personnel that will NOT be renewed. Included in that groupo are 3 multi year contracts Jim Bowden set up that most assuredly will not be renewed. Johnny's words were "3 contracts I can GUARANTEE will not be renewed" Right now I am 100% not interested in joining the Reds organization.

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 12:37 PM
I'd be interested in all of them if/when you get the time or inclination to post them. I'll be watching Coffey closely tonight.

One of my buddies and I used to do this all the time when we attended games. It was fun when you could pick something up, but most of the guys are incredibly good about everything looking the same, they have to be. I ought to keep a few games TiVo'd ... I bet it'd be pretty easy to go back and pick things up that way.

GL

I've done that a few times. Especially with Brad Lidge. Great thing about Tivo is the slowmo and rewing.

Most of the games I Tivo are the Reds, Tampa Bay, Yankees, Padres and Mariners.

Jpup
07-07-2006, 12:41 PM
I've done that a few times. Especially with Brad Lidge. Great thing about Tivo is the slowmo and rewing.

Most of the games I Tivo are the Reds, Tampa Bay, Yankees, Padres and Mariners.

so is that Lidge's problem? tipping?

gonelong
07-07-2006, 12:43 PM
I've done that a few times. Especially with Brad Lidge. Great thing about Tivo is the slowmo and rewing.

Most of the games I Tivo are the Reds, Tampa Bay, Yankees, Padres and Mariners.

I have a little one running around so mostly I just watch the Reds games now, though I'll peak in on a few other games from time to time.

Just curious, what kind of value is givent to detecting these "tells" in the scouting world? I'd think this would be more of an icing on the cake kind of skill, or is not even given that much notice?

GL

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 12:50 PM
so is that Lidge's problem? tipping?

No, he was doing that, the Rocket phoned in to straighten that out. He seemingly got back on track. Then he pulled a "Ryan Wagner" and fell in love with one pitch. He'll be alright. Now that he has the Rocket in his ear he'll be fine.

registerthis
07-07-2006, 12:55 PM
so is that Lidge's problem? tipping?

No, silly, that was Danny Graves' problem.

Still is, apparently.

reds44
07-07-2006, 01:01 PM
Ok... I will try to give as much visual reference as possible. It's best if you go get a ball and glove. Go from the stretch and come to the set. (please do not throw the baseball as I will not pay for your new sliding glass door)

Coffey when throwing a slider grips the slider to the side. Meaning he puts two fingers together, finds the inner seams and turns his hand to the side as if he were making a backwards C with his hand. When you do this at the "set" a pitcher has a tendency to turn his glove in to conceal. Coffey turns his glove thumbside in and further tips the top of the glove over/towards the body consistently when throwing a slider. I saw him reaching in and turning his hand. Mike Pazik, Royals advance scout, caught the glove tipping. Hence, tipping his pitches. (Matt Stairs says THANK YOU)

Coffey's fastball is the easiest to pick up because it is so routine. Glove normal, centered on the body. Basicall a straight "set". Kind of like at the batting cages, you get the timing of the machine the same way.

His change, which has been pounded and now rarely thrown was REALLY dramatic. Hand is deeper into the glove (to the web) to maintain grip, forcing the glove DOWN and away from the body. I saw him try to correct this once by pulling his glove up center but he already gave it away. Don Poplin, Cleveland Indians Advance scout and I both got this in varying degrees.

His split he holds at the bottom of his glove. I have seen him vary from holding the split in his hand and also going to the glove to get the grip. He was better off with it in his hand. He really digs the ball into the web of his finger and uses the heel of the glove to do it. Problem is he pulls his glove close to his body and LEAVES it there a majority of the time. In order to get that ball into a split finger position and use the glove a fair amount of resistance is needed. Myself, Bill Harford and Mike Jorgensen of the St. Louis Cardinals got this on two different trips.

Go ahead and try it in your glove and you will see what I am talking about. Try a 4 seam fastball. With ball in the glove, take a sign, then finger your pitch (no comments here) and come to the set. Pretty natural. Now do the same with a split. There's a noticeable difference. It's momentary and someone who is watching can pick it up. Guys like the Rocket are masters at making it all look te same. El Duque too.

Hope this helps. Coffey is pretty darn consistent with tipping. I'd say he does this "noticeably" on 7 out of 10 pitches. He's also "twirling" or "pulling off" when he throws his slider. This slows the slider down and makes it flatten out. That can be fixed in one bullpen session.
Wow great insight TC. I will have to watch for it when he pitches next.

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 01:02 PM
I have a little one running around so mostly I just watch the Reds games now, though I'll peak in on a few other games from time to time.

Just curious, what kind of value is givent to detecting these "tells" in the scouting world? I'd think this would be more of an icing on the cake kind of skill, or is not even given that much notice?

GL

Some guys see it and some do not. You really have to know mechanics and tendencies to be able to see that. In scouting I have noticed the difference between a pro-scout and an advance scout is like the difference between an orthapaedist and a hand specialist. Both are typically pretty good but one in a certain setting can see things the other can not.

I see things on the field "as" they happen not after they happen. A lot of scouts do not. It takes them pitch after pitch, swing after swing. I see (dead people) flaws, mechanics, calls, first steps, arm action, postioning, etc. instantly. A lot of that comes from playing the game. I caught and I absorbed an enormous amount of info as a catcher. When I coached with Rick Dempsey he helped me expand what I was seeing to a whole new level. There is so much to see in this game it's truly amazing. I think scouting footbal is harder.

Team Clark
07-07-2006, 01:03 PM
Wow great insight TC. I will have to watch for it when he pitches next.

If he fixes it, you won't see it at all.

kheidg-
07-07-2006, 03:10 PM
Hey kheidg, what part of Minnesota? I just moved to the St. MIchael - Albertville area.

I am in Saint Cloud. We are only about 30 minutes away. Been to any Twins games yet this year?

Matt700wlw
07-07-2006, 03:50 PM
I'm hoping the switch back to the set-up role, which he excelled in, will straighten him back out.

nkufan
07-07-2006, 06:10 PM
Once agian I like to say I am very sorry about letting my emotions getting the best of me. Todd Coffey did a great job in the set up this season. I am sure he will do great there agian. The only reason he was in the there last night is because this reds has great character to come come back last night.
So i admit that my post last night was joke and unacceptable for this board. So I apoligize to Todd Coffey, his family, and the redzone commiunity

wheels
07-07-2006, 06:11 PM
Once agian I like to say I am very sorry about letting my emotions getting the best of me. Todd Coffey did a great job in the set up this season. I am sure he will do great there agian. The only reason he was in the there last night is because this reds has great character to come come back last night.
So i admit that my post last night was joke and unacceptable for this board. So I apoligize to Todd Coffey, his family, and the redzone commiunity

Posting angry is like grocery shopping when you're hungry.

Red in Atl
07-07-2006, 06:37 PM
or stoned...

MWM
07-07-2006, 08:32 PM
I am in Saint Cloud. We are only about 30 minutes away. Been to any Twins games yet this year?

Yep, about 40 miles from here. I just moved here two weeks ago. I spent the summer in Minneapolis last year and went to a couple. I can't stand that ballpark. I don't even feel like I'm at a baseball game. It feels like there should be tractors trying to pull stuff or trucks crashing on top of busses. I'll probably wind up at more Saints games than the Twins.

GAC
07-08-2006, 07:23 AM
I like to apoligize to todd coffey and his family. I let the emotionals of another tough keep the best me.

Welcome to Redszone. You aren't the first, nor will you be the last, to make a thread borne solely of emotion rather then reason.

It's human nature.

Tony Cloninger
07-08-2006, 09:19 AM
I know this is annoying TC....but i cannot help to ask a few questions myself.

1. While i agree Narron is doing pretty good with what he has. Does it not strike you, as it does to us, that he likes veterans (even bad ones who clearly do not have it) more than trying to go with a younger player? This does not bode well for the next 2 years, IMO. Is that why he is liked by his players...beacuse he will not ever give up on some of these veterans and overuse them? Or do these young players.....just piss him off with their lack of work ethic?

2. Does he even listen to Tom Hume when it comes to changing pitchers....a feel for when a pitcher has clearly lost it. Using the bullpen, even this horrible one, better to try and maximize what little they have to offer?

3. DOES anyone...in this new FO.......get tired of the way Grande calls games and is there any chance at all this guy will be replaced?
All this sunshine and rainbows.......nothing wrong with being happy....but he is grating beyond words. IMO...he offers nothing into anything the game has to offer.

He was the first "Sportscenter" broadcaster. Great....... good for him.
Pete Best was the first Beatles drummer too...... what gigs did he keep getting beacuse of that?


I also hope....well...i should say....i am pleased to hear about the FO turnover. Getting rid of the still "bad remnants" of the JB era.....and hopefully replacing them with better people, and not all "old school" people will really help, IMO.


Thanks for responding...but i understand if it is too much to respond to or you cannot.

Team Clark
07-08-2006, 07:01 PM
I know this is annoying TC....but i cannot help to ask a few questions myself.

1. While i agree Narron is doing pretty good with what he has. Does it not strike you, as it does to us, that he likes veterans (even bad ones who clearly do not have it) more than trying to go with a younger player? This does not bode well for the next 2 years, IMO. Is that why he is liked by his players...beacuse he will not ever give up on some of these veterans and overuse them? Or do these young players.....just piss him off with their lack of work ethic?

2. Does he even listen to Tom Hume when it comes to changing pitchers....a feel for when a pitcher has clearly lost it. Using the bullpen, even this horrible one, better to try and maximize what little they have to offer?

3. DOES anyone...in this new FO.......get tired of the way Grande calls games and is there any chance at all this guy will be replaced?
All this sunshine and rainbows.......nothing wrong with being happy....but he is grating beyond words. IMO...he offers nothing into anything the game has to offer.

He was the first "Sportscenter" broadcaster. Great....... good for him.
Pete Best was the first Beatles drummer too...... what gigs did he keep getting beacuse of that?


I also hope....well...i should say....i am pleased to hear about the FO turnover. Getting rid of the still "bad remnants" of the JB era.....and hopefully replacing them with better people, and not all "old school" people will really help, IMO.


Thanks for responding...but i understand if it is too much to respond to or you cannot.

Thanks for the questions...

1) Narron is doing a pretty good job with the hand he has. You and I agree on that. As far as Veterans being played over someone younger. Hmmmm. Great question. I like him playing Aurillia and Hatteberg in the roles they have. I think they have done well. I do not follow the Reds as closely as I used to but it seems those two guys are getting it done. ED E will play almost everyday soon.

I like the fact that Brandon Phillips was given a shot. He's better than Bergolla hands down. He's outplaying most of the NL at 2B. Not sure if you consider him a vet??

Castro was a very good acquisition. He's proven his worth to me.

From what I gather you must be talking about the pitching. There are so many ways to go with this conversation. Most fans that watch the game regularly and are really into Baseball have a pretty good sense of who belongs and who does not. You do not need to be a scout or coach to figure out if someone is Horse Poop. I think Weathers is hurt, REALLY hurt and is taking one for the team. IMO, that is worse than getting lit up. Just say you're hurt, get it fixed and come back out. Weathers is not a closer, he's not a set up guy. He just doesn't have the kind of "Stuff" to be "CONSISTENT" in those roles.

Coffey being thrust into the Closer's role may have already backfired. But who else did they have that was pitching lights out? I don't blame Narron. I blame the guys who have been around and can't pull it together. Mercker, Hammond, Weathers, Milton on occasion, and even Claussen. These guys know what to do. They have to make quality pitches. It's not just a matter of putting down a sign and throwing the ball. It goes so far beyond that it would take me an hour to scratch the surface on this topic.

The flip side of the coin is, who else do they have? The Reds minor leagues is NOT stocked with live arms who are throwing quality, "out" pitches. You rush Bailey and see what happens. Ask Ryan Wagner what kind of adjustment this league is. He'll probably never make it back as a Red.

As far as work ethic goes. We've touched on that before. Some of it has changed but overall it is still lacking. The tail does wag the dog from time to time on EVERY team.

I think the players like him because he's basically honest with them and he cares about what happens to them. That's all I would ask of my manager.

Trades are not made overnight and to be honest the market is limited at the moment. You don't think Krivsky tried to get someone better that Guardado? Although I like the trade. He does bring a lot to the table compared to what they had. I think he is better than Mercker or Shackelford. Most of the young guys in the Reds pen are shell shckoed and pitch scared.

I know this is a long answer to your first question but I thought I should give you my perspective. I may be wrong on certain points but this is just my opinion.

2)I have NO DOUBT he listens to Tom. As far as what I have watched he makes as many clear cut decisions as he can. His pitchers, young or old seem to find a way NOT to have success. I find it hard to fault Narron or Hume for a pitcher losing his poise and throwing hangers. When you do not have confidence in your Pen you are behind the 8 Ball. You will be second guessed and you may lose more than you win. Teams do not make it very far in the Post Season without a solid pen.

3) I really do not have an answer for you there but I know I can barely take it.


I am looking forward to the turnover. Krivsky needs his own "circle of trust". He does not have it yet. I understand he was VERY relieved to see Dean Taylor go. Not that he did not like or not get along with Dean. Sometimes you need your own person to lean on. Dean is not that guy.

reds44
07-08-2006, 07:05 PM
ED E will play almost everyday soon.
Please tell me you know this for sure......

Team Clark
07-08-2006, 07:28 PM
Please tell me you know this for sure......

I wish I could say that for sure but I know how highly Narron thinks of him. Ed E will play. Write that down and bank on it.

Mario-Rijo
07-08-2006, 07:40 PM
TC just tell me one thing. Am I right about Dunn, in that he needs to shorten that swing at some point in order to reach his full potential? I swear his swing has more holes than swiss cheese, and he cannot possibly catch up to an above average FB if the guy has a solid to above breaking ball and he is throwing it anywhere near the zone unless AD is sitting on it (unlikely). What's your take?

Oh yeah anything on Ryan Wagner?

I'll offer up one myself. Aaron Harang will never hit an outside pitch out of the park!

Team Clark
07-08-2006, 10:40 PM
TC just tell me one thing. Am I right about Dunn, in that he needs to shorten that swing at some point in order to reach his full potential? I swear his swing has more holes than swiss cheese, and he cannot possibly catch up to an above average FB if the guy has a solid to above breaking ball and he is throwing it anywhere near the zone unless AD is sitting on it (unlikely). What's your take?

Oh yeah anything on Ryan Wagner?

I'll offer up one myself. Aaron Harang will never hit an outside pitch out of the park!

I watched most of the game tonight and saw some of the Tivo from last night. Looks to me like Dunn has the ST swing that I saw when I visited the Reds in Sarasota. Slightly more compact and just a bit smoother. Basically instead of an uppercut his bat is staying in the hitting zone about an extra 4-6 inches. I'd be willing to bet he dropped 2 ounces of weight out of his bats.

I haven't seen Wagner in at least a month.

remdog
07-09-2006, 07:11 AM
This thread should be archived as a perfect illustration as to why observation is so valuable and why stats are not the 'end all' for this game.

Not to beat up on the stats guys but there have been numerous posts on this board that go something like this: 'back this up with numbers or your opinion has no validity'. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to reply: 'back your numbers up with opservations or your opinion has no validity'. Things like this work both ways, ya' know.

Once again, I'm not trying to pick a fight here. This thread (primarily the part from Team Clark) illustrates that astute observation can (and does) play a major part in the evaluation of this game. Numbers are great in that they can condense prior performances into discernable patterns that can be recognized and used both for and against your team. No one should ignore them but, instead, use them to your advantage and learn from them. By the same token, observationonal skills such as TC's observations in this thread, can be used to recognize and learn and to give your team an advantage.

Personally, in no way do I come close to the skills of TC in the observation department but, having been an astute fan for over fifty years, I can also watch the game and determine that some players are on the down-side of their career, some players are having abnormally good or bad years, some players have developed bad habits or that some players are about to have 'break through' years. Frankly, so can most of the people on this board because the folks on this site really care about the game and, for the most part, are not what someone would classify as 'casual fans'.

There is room for both approaches in the game but, IMO, observation has gotten the short shrift on this board in many cases, at least from many of the more vocal people here.

Thanks for the observations, TC.

Rem

RANDY IN INDY
07-09-2006, 08:12 AM
Well said, my friend.:thumbup:

GAC
07-09-2006, 08:39 AM
I wish I could say that for sure but I know how highly Narron thinks of him. Ed E will play. Write that down and bank on it.

You're killin' alot of conspiracies about Narron on here TC. ;)

Team Clark
07-09-2006, 11:46 AM
This thread should be archived as a perfect illustration as to why observation is so valuable and why stats are not the 'end all' for this game.

Not to beat up on the stats guys but there have been numerous posts on this board that go something like this: 'back this up with numbers or your opinion has no validity'. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to reply: 'back your numbers up with opservations or your opinion has no validity'. Things like this work both ways, ya' know.

Once again, I'm not trying to pick a fight here. This thread (primarily the part from Team Clark) illustrates that astute observation can (and does) play a major part in the evaluation of this game. Numbers are great in that they can condense prior performances into discernable patterns that can be recognized and used both for and against your team. No one should ignore them but, instead, use them to your advantage and learn from them. By the same token, observationonal skills such as TC's observations in this thread, can be used to recognize and learn and to give your team an advantage.

Personally, in no way do I come close to the skills of TC in the observation department but, having been an astute fan for over fifty years, I can also watch the game and determine that some players are on the down-side of their career, some players are having abnormally good or bad years, some players have developed bad habits or that some players are about to have 'break through' years. Frankly, so can most of the people on this board because the folks on this site really care about the game and, for the most part, are not what someone would classify as 'casual fans'.

There is room for both approaches in the game but, IMO, observation has gotten the short shrift on this board in many cases, at least from many of the more vocal people here.

Thanks for the observations, TC.

Rem

Thanks Rem. I really appreciate those comments. I have learned a lot of "patience" from fans who have watched a lot more baseball than I have. As it has been explained to me many times, "Sometimes what you see out on the field doesn't give you the whole picture". I too like to use statistics. Bad statistics (High ERA, Pooor BA) to me are like an alarm going off. I like to find out why that player is not performing at a consistent level. Cause and effect. Great post Rem.

Team Clark
07-09-2006, 11:47 AM
You're killin' alot of conspiracies about Narron on here TC. ;)

Yeah I know. Narron will help guide this team to more victories when they get rid of those dead horses pulling the carriage.

Tony Cloninger
07-09-2006, 12:06 PM
Great stuff....thank your MISTER Team Clark. :thumbup:

You answered my questions very well.

I am not on the conspiracy bandwagon in regards to JN hating EE or Lopez...or any younger player. I just think he has a little more trust in some vets, as do most managers. I just wanted to hear what you thought or could see from this situation. At least.....and i would gather most people would..... agree that oif you say JN likes EE, then i think most people here should not worry about this guy being jerked around.

I think people worry that Lopez and RA are ready to pounce on EE and Lopez's job's at the drop of a hat. Any excuse and they are on the bench.
Redszoners do not seem to believe in bench players having more than 1-2 starts per month. Even if the starters leg has been amputated. ;)

The Grande answer......well i think you are just like us...baffled as to why he is there?


SOOO.....who are these dead horses you speak of anyways? :laugh:

nkufan
07-09-2006, 03:22 PM
todd coffey is too hittable to be a above average reliever

Jpup
07-09-2006, 03:30 PM
todd coffey is too hittable to be a above average reliever

:lol: I knew you were going to change your mind again. ;)

nkufan
07-09-2006, 03:36 PM
lol I know i just hope he can figure what he is doing wrong over the all star break

redsupport
07-09-2006, 05:18 PM
85 hits in 58 innings those numbers are not apocraphyl, just the stuff of Hank Fischer type pitchers

Heath
07-09-2006, 05:23 PM
Tipping is appreciated in most sit-down type restaraunts.

Tipping is not appreciated in most ballparks on pitches delivered by a relief pitcher.

Todd Coffey's tipping everything but the cows. I'm not a scout by any stretch of the imagination, but he shows his grip of the baseball very plain to see when he tosses his fastball and the slider. Its two different grips and he's not hiding it well.

Also, and this may seem stupid or reaching, check out when he tosses his fastball. He's always flapping his glove. When he tosses his slider, his glove is tight against his hand, like he wants to get a better grip on the ball.

Just an observation.

Jpup
07-09-2006, 07:16 PM
Tipping is appreciated in most sit-down type restaraunts.

Tipping is not appreciated in most ballparks on pitches delivered by a relief pitcher.

Todd Coffey's tipping everything but the cows. I'm not a scout by any stretch of the imagination, but he shows his grip of the baseball very plain to see when he tosses his fastball and the slider. Its two different grips and he's not hiding it well.

Also, and this may seem stupid or reaching, check out when he tosses his fastball. He's always flapping his glove. When he tosses his slider, his glove is tight against his hand, like he wants to get a better grip on the ball.

Just an observation.

you are about a day late, but you are right.

Redsland
07-09-2006, 09:18 PM
I'd be willing to bet he dropped 2 ounces of weight out of his bats.
Just about. Hal reported on June 30 (http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/063006redsweb.html) that he'd gone down from his usual 33.5 oz. model to a 32 oz. model.

Team Clark
07-09-2006, 11:22 PM
Just about. Hal reported on June 30 (http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/063006redsweb.html) that he'd gone down from his usual 33.5 oz. model to a 32 oz. model.

Pretty good guess. I called two consecutive Home Runs the other day on the exact pitches. Guy sitting next to me said I should quit and be a fortune teller! :laugh: :laugh: