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Shaggy Sanchez
07-07-2006, 01:34 AM
http://www.examiner.com/a-167250~A_bat_for_both_Bay_teams.html

SAN FRANCISCO - The prize is Pittsburgh first baseman Sean Casey. Both the Giants and As covet him. When he becomes a free agent at the end of the season, the Giants will pursue him, but when it comes to renting him for this season, the As have the advantage.


Though the organization philosophies are quite different, the Giants and As have some similarities as the season is at its halfway point. Both are pitching-oriented with shaky offenses, both are playing in a division where 88 or 89 victories could be enough to win.

And both have a dead hole at first base.

The Giants had high hopes for Lance Niekro, who had hit well at every minor league stop, but Niekro has been injury-prone (as he was in the minors, too) and hasnt hit well when he has been healthy. Entering Monday, He stands at .245 with four homers and 26 RBIs in 159 at-bats.

Dan Johnson has been even worse for the As. In his second season, he is hitting .244 with six homers and 24 RBIs in 225 at-bats. To make it worse, hes playing on an injured left ankle that caused errors that resulted in two Oakland losses last weekend.

Casey, who was injured this season but is now healthy, is not a big power hitter. His major league high is 25 homers with Cincinnati in 1999, and he had 24 two seasons ago for the Reds. This year, he has just three homers in 143 at-bats.

But hes a very consistent hitter. His career batting average, over eight-plus seasons, is .305, and hes hitting .301 now. He has hit very well at AT&T Park because hes a line-drive hitter who puts the ball in the gaps.

The Giants have little chance to trade for him. They wont give up their top young pitching prospects, and their resolve is no doubt reinforced when they look at former farmhand Francisco Liriano burning up the American League.

As general manager Billy Beane has used players from the As deep minor league system as trading chips, as he did when he sent Andre Ethier to the Los Angeles Dodgers for Milton Bradley and Antonio Perez. That trade hasnt worked out, but it wont stop Beane from trading for immediate help.

The Pirates are always looking for pitching, and the As have another hotshot in their system: Jason Windsor, who is 7-0 with Sacramento. Maybe Beane could throw in another player, like infielder Mike Rouse, who could be a valuable reserve.

Thats a trade I think the Pirates would jump at. They know they

arent going to re-sign Casey, who turned 32 Sunday. Theyre trying to rebuild with good young players like Jason Bay, an All-Star selection. Casey doesnt fit their future plans or budget.

But he would be a perfect fit for the As. Hes known to be a good guy in the clubhouse, another plus, and he would give the As a much-needed solid hitter in their lineup. Johnson could go back to Sacramento to get his swing and confidence back.

Next year? The As probably wont pursue Casey in free agency, so its possible he would go across the Bay to the Giants. That wont bother the As if he gives them the boost they need for their stretch run.

jimbo
07-07-2006, 01:42 AM
I'm a huge Sean Casey fan, always have been. He will always be one of my favorite players. Having said that, I sincerely hope he lands on a team that has a chance to compete for a WS, he deserves to be on a winner. As much as I would love to have him back as a Red, I'm to the point where I hope he doesn't come back. It bothers me too much to see him get bashed all of the time.

KronoRed
07-07-2006, 02:01 AM
Bet they get more for him then the Reds did ;)

Tom Servo
07-07-2006, 02:19 AM
Bet they get more for him then the Reds did ;)
Are you implying Dave Williams was not everything the Reds (former) management expected him to be!?





:roll:

toledodan
07-07-2006, 02:29 AM
i wish casey well but hope he doesn't end up back here for some reason.

WMR
07-07-2006, 02:37 AM
Gotta love the criminal level of incompetence of DanO. What a freaking load.

MWM
07-07-2006, 02:44 AM
Gotta love the criminal level of incompetence of DanO. What a freaking load.

Yeah, if the Bucs get something valuable for him, it will put to rest the notion that there was no market for Sean Casey. That was an awful trade when it happened and it's awful now.

schroomytunes
07-07-2006, 03:57 AM
I think Krivsky needs to throw his name into the Giants and A's discussions, we have a guy that makes less than Casey and is murdering the ball right now. I think that Scott Hatteberg is a good fit with both teams and he can be had for the right price. I think I would start with these names:

Giants- Jeremy Accardo (P) or Kevin Correija(P)

A's- Kiko Calero(P) or Kirk Saarloos(P) and a prospect

OldXOhio
07-07-2006, 08:28 AM
Bet they get more for him then the Reds did ;)

Sean Casey for Dave Williams. Dave freaking Williams. I still can't believe it.

RANDY IN INDY
07-07-2006, 08:51 AM
Sean Casey for Dave Williams. Dave freaking Williams. I still can't believe it.

Me neither.

lollipopcurve
07-07-2006, 08:55 AM
Sean Casey for Dave Williams. Dave freaking Williams. I still can't believe it.

I like Dave Willams to improve on his numbers at Norfolk when he gets healthy.

Heath
07-07-2006, 08:57 AM
I think the A's have sung the song and danced the dance with Scott Hatteberg.

Super_Barry11
07-07-2006, 10:35 AM
Oooh, I'm going to have to say the same thing about Casey that I did about LaRue.... If he goes to the A's, I'm going to be super excited!! :) Then moving to Oakland (where I don't know anyone) won't be so lonely if I know I can go see one of my favorites play!! :D

Sea Ray
07-07-2006, 11:33 AM
The Giants have little chance to trade for him. They won’t give up their top young pitching prospects, and their resolve is no doubt reinforced when they look at former farmhand Francisco Liriano burning up the American League

Who says they have little chance? All they need is a Dave Williams since that is obviously the market for this guy...



Thanks OB

Sea Ray
07-07-2006, 11:34 AM
I think the A's have sung the song and danced the dance with Scott Hatteberg.

I have to think the A's wish they still had Hatteberg. I've been very impressed with the guy

MaineRed
07-07-2006, 12:19 PM
I don't want to star a war but other than being a really nice guy, why does Sean Casey, DESERVE to be on a World Series team?

The guy is an out of shape first basemen who usually hits like a utility infielder. If Sean Casey, DESERVES a World Series, the list of those like him must be endless. I like Sean the person but he is a below average to average first basemen.

westofyou
07-07-2006, 12:33 PM
Casey won't be an A.

There I said it.

Hooligan
07-07-2006, 12:38 PM
The Reds should try an d jump into this. Hatteberg to the Giants, Aurilia covers first?

Jpup
07-07-2006, 12:41 PM
The Reds should try an d jump into this. Hatteberg to the Giants, Aurilia covers first?


NO.

jimbo
07-07-2006, 12:48 PM
I don't want to star a war but other than being a really nice guy, why does Sean Casey, DESERVE to be on a World Series team?

The guy is an out of shape first basemen who usually hits like a utility infielder. If Sean Casey, DESERVES a World Series, the list of those like him must be endless. I like Sean the person but he is a below average to average first basemen.

He deserves it for the simple fact he is a class act and there aren't many class acts in baseball these days. He deserves it for what he has brought to the teams and communitities in which he plays in.

You think he is a below average to average first baseman, that's your opinon. He's had some unfortunate injuries, but when he has been healthy he has had some very nice productive seasons. Some people cannot look past the fact he does not hit 40 home runs. I think some people simply get a kick out of putting him down every chance they get.

The fact that the A's and Giants "covet" him tells me he is better than average.

MaineRed
07-07-2006, 01:13 PM
He deserves it for the simple fact he is a class act and there aren't many class acts in baseball these days. He deserves it for what he has brought to the teams and communitities in which he plays in.

You think he is a below average to average first baseman, that's your opinon. He's had some unfortunate injuries, but when he has been healthy he has had some very nice productive seasons. Some people cannot look past the fact he does not hit 40 home runs. I think some people simply get a kick out of putting him down every chance they get.

The fact that the A's and Giants "covet" him tells me he is better than average.

Since there aren't many class acts in baseball, stands to reason the Reds must only have a few. Care to list a few of who don't fit this category?

I think my opinion of where Casey ranks is more than just mine. He clearly is not a top ten catcher. It is debateable if he belongs in the top 20 IMO. The guy is average at best.

Your right, some can't get past the fact that is not a HR hiter, but I'm not one of them. Thanks for asking though. But lets be real, his lack of power is not a feather in his cap. He can hit, for average but then when he gets on base he can't move. One of the slowest players in history. He plays first, he doesn't hit for power, he hits mostly singles and he can't run.

Is Eddie Guardado an above average closer at this point? Well he must be if your logic is correct since the Reds, coveted and got him. Hate to be the one to break the news to you but teams to go after average to below average players, ALL THE TIME. Sean Casey would not be the first.

I give the guy all the credit in the world for being positve. He would be great on a winning team because of his attitude. He makes the game fun. But it doesn't improve his production. I don't wish him any ill will. I'd love to see him get a WS ring by contributing to the team. I just don't think he has it owed to him. He wants it, he should go get it, like everyone else.

M2
07-07-2006, 01:17 PM
I like Dave Willams to improve on his numbers at Norfolk when he gets healthy.

I agree. He should be able to drag that ERA all the way down into the 5.00s.

M2
07-07-2006, 01:23 PM
Sean Casey's got a .300/.383/.431 stat line this season and he's at .305/.371/.461 for his career. That's not a bad guy to have in your starting lineup. He's got a higher OPS than Prince Fielder, Mark Teixeira and Conor Jackson.

jimbo
07-07-2006, 01:34 PM
I think my opinion of where Casey ranks is more than just mine. He clearly is not a top ten catcher.

I agree with you there. I don't think he is even a top 20 catcher.


Your right, some can't get past the fact that is not a HR hiter, but I'm not one of them. Thanks for asking though.

What? Can't remember where I asked.


But lets be real, his lack of power is not a feather in his cap. He can hit, for average but then when he gets on base he can't move. One of the slowest players in history.

You have anything to back that up with? Ever watch Carlos Lee run?


He plays first, he doesn't hit for power, he hits mostly singles and he can't run.

Where does it state that a 1B has to hit for power? The vast majority of major league players hits more singles than any other hit. He doesn't get paid for his speed.


Is Eddie Guardado an above average closer at this point? Well he must be if your logic is correct since the Reds, coveted and got him.

I never read where the Reds coveted him, they simply traded for him because he was available and Krivsky is familiar with him. But since you asked, I would still consider him above average. I tend to look at the back on one's baseball card instead of just the past few months or half a season. Reds scouts say his stuff is still there and he has been very effective the past 4 seasons.


Hate to be the one to break the news to you but teams to go after average to below average players, ALL THE TIME.

Thanks for the enlightenment.


I just don't think he has it owed to him. He wants it, he should go get it, like everyone else.

I did not intend to imply that it should be given to him.

PuffyPig
07-07-2006, 03:11 PM
Yeah, if the Bucs get something valuable for him, it will put to rest the notion that there was no market for Sean Casey. That was an awful trade when it happened and it's awful now.

Not necessarily. If the Pirates pay most of his salary(they likely will have too), they will end up with something better than Williams, but it will have cost them about $5M to do so. That better be one great prospect.

KronoRed
07-07-2006, 03:24 PM
Are you implying Dave Williams was not everything the Reds (former) management expected him to be!?





:roll:
I think he's going to be an ACE for a southern league team

Marc D
07-07-2006, 04:24 PM
I'd shop Hatteberg to any team interested in Casey. You bet essentially the same production for a lot less $$ and not nearly the injury risk. If a team is looking for a rent a player, its a no brainer.

I'd let RA and JV be my 1B solution for the remainder of '06 as they won't make a difference. This season's toast.

Heath
07-07-2006, 04:27 PM
I'd shop Hatteberg to any team interested in Casey. You bet essentially the same production for a lot less $$ and not nearly the injury risk. If a team is looking for a rent a player, its a no brainer.

I'd let RA and JV be my 1B solution for the remainder of '06 as they won't make a difference. This season's toast.


If we can get living, breathing pitching for Scott Hatteberg, I'd do it in a heartbeat and send Adam Dunn to 1b and bring up Chris Denorfia.

That's the ultimate IMO.

jimbo
07-07-2006, 04:35 PM
If we can get living, breathing pitching for Scott Hatteberg, I'd do it in a heartbeat and send Adam Dunn to 1b and bring up Chris Denorfia.

That's the ultimate IMO.

My biggest concern with moving dunn to 1B is that it weakens the infield defensively even more.

Marc D
07-07-2006, 04:40 PM
If we can get living, breathing pitching for Scott Hatteberg, I'd do it in a heartbeat and send Adam Dunn to 1b and bring up Chris Denorfia.

That's the ultimate IMO.

I would have said the same earlier in the year but now you have to start seriously factoring in Votto at 1B as early as 2007. No easy answers there.

MaineRed
07-07-2006, 06:04 PM
You have anything to back that up with? Ever watch Carlos Lee run?

Anything to back it up with? Thats right, I forgot you can't give your opinion, only facts. Sorry, don't have all the players 40 times in front of me. But look at his SB totals if you need some facts.

Never thought I would be arguing with someone about Sean Casey's speed.

I said Casey was one of the slowest. I didn't say he was the slowest. Yes other guys are slow. In Carlos Lee's case, what you saw was probably his HR trot. Casey most likely was in a dead sprint trying to beat out a grounder to second.



What? Can't remember where I asked.

Thats right, you didn't. But you went ahead and assumed just the same.


Where does it state that a 1B has to hit for power? The vast majority of major league players hits more singles than any other hit. He doesn't get paid for his speed.

He doesn't get paid to do anything for the Reds anymore because his production doesn't match up with his paycheck. The Reds determined that, not me. The return for Casey stunk but it doesn't excuse the fact that he priced himself out of town.

He wasn't being paid to hit for power and he wasn't being paid for his speed. Well whatever he was being paid to do, he wasn't doing or he would still be doing it for the Reds right now. I think the Reds expected more when he was given that contract.

jimbo
07-07-2006, 06:25 PM
Anything to back it up with? Thats right, I forgot you can't give your opinion, only facts. Sorry, don't have all the players 40 times in front of me. But look at his SB totals if you need some facts.

All I asked was if you have ever seen Carlos Lee run? What exactly do I need to back up? I've watched him play left, it is obvious watching him that he is very slow.


Never thought I would be arguing with someone about Sean Casey's speed.

I'm not arguing that, I agree that he is slow.


Thats right, you didn't. But you went ahead and assumed just the same.

I never assumed that about you, I was making a generalization of a lot of ant-Casey Reds fans. Speaking of assuming, I see a lot of it in your posts.


He wasn't being paid to hit for power and he wasn't being paid for his speed. Well whatever he was being paid to do, he wasn't doing or he would still be doing it for the Reds right now.

He got paid for his bat, he's had multpile 20 home runs seasons along with hitting 80 RBIs or more in 4 out of his last 8 seasons. He's also a career .300 hitter with very a respectible OBP and OPS. I agree he was making too much money, but he isn't as bad as what some make him out to be.

I respect your opinion, what I didn't appreciate your immediate attitude in your first response to me.

MWM
07-07-2006, 08:45 PM
Not necessarily. If the Pirates pay most of his salary(they likely will have too), they will end up with something better than Williams, but it will have cost them about $5M to do so. That better be one great prospect.

Sean Casey's salary this year is $8.5MM and the Reds paid $1MM of it. That leaves $7.5MM for the Pirates. The season is more than half over meaning Casey has only about $3MM left to be paid this season. I don't think that's going to be cost prohibitive for teams and if so, the Pirates won't have to kick in much if anything and the small savings the Bucs would get is not enough to make it simply a salary dump if they don't get talent in return. If a team desires to have Sean Casey, they'll give up something to get him. He probably won't net an elite prospect, but he could get something valuable. My point is that "IF" he's traded and he nets some talent in return, even if the PIrates have to kick in a mill, then the idea that there was NO market for Casey this offseason is bunk. He's the same player now as he was in the offseason. Plenty of people contended all along that he did have some trade value and could have gotten better. Sadly, I think it was a case of DanO simply targeting Dave Williams as someone he thought was a good pitcher.

REDREAD
07-08-2006, 10:13 AM
Bet they get more for him then the Reds did ;)

I know, isn't it sickening to think the Pirates will probably get a legit prospect from the A's? Meanwhile DanO puttered around for years on trading Casey and ended up getting pure chaff. Although DanO did tell Cast that Williams was a "potential #1 starter". :laugh:

OldXOhio
07-08-2006, 10:25 AM
He got paid for his bat, he's had multpile 20 home runs seasons along with hitting 80 RBIs or more in 4 out of his last 8 seasons. He's also a career .300 hitter with very a respectible OBP and OPS..

His OPS were below average for a 1B. That's been well documented on here for years.


I agree he was making too much money



Really all that needs to be said. When you're the Reds and one of your highest paid players isn't producing at a level commensurate with his salary, he needs to go. What I find very revealing is despite the abysmal Dave Williams trade, very few on here have longed for Casey's return.

Red Leader
07-08-2006, 10:29 AM
Really all that needs to be said. When you're the Reds and one of your highest paid players isn't producing at a level commensurate with his salary, he needs to go. What I find very revealing is despite the abysmal Dave Williams trade, very few on here have longed for Casey's return.


If anything, I'd bet a lot of folks on this board wished we had Casey back simply so that Krivsky could deal him again and actually get us something of value.

You're right, though. Even despite that fact that many people absolutely hated the Sean Casey - Dave Williams trade, and knew it was a flat out salary dump, most were ok with it because they realized how crippling that salary was to our franchise. Because of that, most people are ok with the deal. We shed his contract, and that was the main goal. It would have been nice to actually have a competant GM that could have shed the contract AND gotten something of ANY value, but that was asking too much of DanO.

Jpup
07-08-2006, 10:35 AM
I still think the Casey deal was a good one for the Reds. They got rid of his salary. That was all I was worried about.

If the Reds want to trade Hatteberg for an arm, I'm fine with it as long as they move Dunn to first. If Aurilia is going to be playing there everyday, I would hate it. I guess it's according to what arm they got in return though.

jimbo
07-08-2006, 11:10 AM
You're right, though. Even despite that fact that many people absolutely hated the Sean Casey - Dave Williams trade, and knew it was a flat out salary dump, most were ok with it because they realized how crippling that salary was to our franchise. Because of that, most people are ok with the deal.

I never bought into the excuse that his salary was "crippling" the franchise. Lindner and O'Brien was doing the crippling, not anybody's salary. I would have been ok with it if had the money had been used for something as they claimed it would. Money had been allocated for arbritration eligible players so it wasn't used for that. Some say it was used to sign Dunn, but I still maintain (even though I do not know for sure) that he would have been signed either way. Basically, that money went right into the owner's pockets.

Jpup
07-08-2006, 11:14 AM
I never bought into the excuse that his salary was "crippling" the franchise. Lindner and O'Brien was doing the crippling, not anybody's salary. I would have been ok with it if had the money had been used for something as they claimed it would. Money had been allocated for arbritration eligible players so it wasn't used for that. Some say it was used to sign Dunn, but I still maintain (even though I do not know for sure) that he would have been signed either way. Basically, that money went right into the owner's pockets.

the season's not over yet. somebody also has to pay all these guys that get DFA.

REDREAD
07-08-2006, 12:05 PM
I never bought into the excuse that his salary was "crippling" the franchise. .

I agree with you on that. I can agree that Casey was overpaid, but I don't think he was crippling the team.

I think a lot of people have been brainwashed by John Allen for so long and think the Reds are poor. Revenue for baseball teams has been increasing at an outstanding rate. Heck, Carl had no problem adding 20 million payroll in a desparate attempt to buy a winning record in the year he was selling the team. This was after years of John Allen telling us that a 40ish million dollar payroll was making the team lose money. We've seen the new ownership not blink an eye when it comes to DFAing dead weight.

There was plenty of money around to keep Casey if we wanted that. Dumb DanO thought he was getting a good pitcher in Williams :laugh:

jimbo
07-08-2006, 12:42 PM
I think a lot of people have been brainwashed by John Allen for so long and think the Reds are poor.

Thank you for bringing up Allen, I forgot to mention him and he may have been the worse of the three. I'm so glad those days are over. The day Allen goes will be a day of celebration.

PuffyPig
07-08-2006, 02:06 PM
My point is that "IF" he's traded and he nets some talent in return, even if the PIrates have to kick in a mill, then the idea that there was NO market for Casey this offseason is bunk. He's the same player now as he was in the offseason.

That's my point, he's not the same player he was in the off season.

In the offseason, he was a $8.5M player, now he's a $3M player. The Pirates have already spent about $5M on Casey.They can't get that back. That's additional money we had to spend this year. Part of it went to Hatteberg.

That propsect the Pirates get may well have cost them $5M.

A costly player becomes more attractive at the trade dealine, because his salary is only 33% of the years total,. Even if the Pirates kick in $1M, they'll have paid about $6.5M of Casey's entire 2006 salary.

We could get a better propsect for Hatteberg right now that Casey could bring.