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KennyGJr
07-07-2006, 02:55 AM
Ok guys, Iím not usually a fan of proposing made up trades with no real validity and this is my first post so I know I donít have a whole lotta credibility here, but after thinking about some of the chips we have, I got an itch to try my hand at improving the team and wanted to know your reactions. I tried to look at the deals from opposing teams perspectives, and thus, I think all of them are deals the Reds could conceivably make (in some cases, perhaps, they could get even more). Anyway here it goes, let me know what you think:

Trade 3B Edwin Encarnacion to the Twins for MR Juan Rincon
Explanation: Twins need some offense, Reds need bullpen help. May seem like a lot to give up but good relief pitching is hard to find as we know.

Trade LF Adam Dunn to the Angels for SS Erick Aybar, SP Ervin Santana and MR JC Romero
Explanation: The Angels are desperate for a bat and Santanaís name has been floating around. With Kendrick, Wood, Cabrera and Izturis, the Angels can afford to move Aybar. I would push for Kendrick or Wood, but again I was going for realism. Romero, another former Twin reliever, would seem like a guy Kriv would jump on and having a bad year, perhaps could be thrown in. Maybe doesnít seem like the ideal package for Dunn, but in my mind, if you can get Santana, a potential 10 year top of the rotation guy, its worth it.

Trade OF BJ Szymanski to the Cubs for MR Scott Williamson
Explanation: Williamsonís been making some comments lately. Cubs probably looking for some youth, though it may be naive to think theyíd help a division rival. Iíd sweeten the pot a little if necessary, but wouldnít go overboard.

Trade SS Felipe Lopez to the White Sox for SP Brandon McCarthy
Explanation: This might be a stretch as well, but if possible, it would be a shrewd move to take advantage of the White Sox glut of SP and lack of a quality SS, and with Aybar on board, the soon to be expensive Lopez becomes expendable.

Note: This next trade is in fact the first trade I would make (because most of the others probably would have to be offseason deals) and would do it immediately if agreed to. I put it last, because it is probably the least realistic from the Reds perspective (although I do believe the Dodgers would seriously consider it) and wanted to build up to it, so it made more sense.

Trade SP Bronson Arroyo to the Dodgers for MR Jonathan Broxton and 3B Andy Laroche
Explanation: Not much SP out there. The NL West is there for the taking, so the Dodgers would probably be willing to pay for a guy whose been one of the best in baseball thus far. Broxton is a future closer (something the Reds need more than starters at this point) and Laroche replaces Encarnacion as the 3B of the future. I know it would be very hard from a PR standpoint for Kriv to move Bronson at all let alone while we're very much alive, but his value will never be higher and quite frankly, I donít think heís this good.

2007 Reds
Lineup
2B Brandon Phillips
SS Erick Aybar
CF Ken Griffey jr.
RF Austin Kearns
1B Joey Votto
LF Chris Denorfia
3B Andy Laroche
C David Ross
Bench
Util Ryan Freel (could beat out Denorfia)
1B Scott Hatteberg (re-signed as bench/insurance for Votto)
IF Rey Olmedo
C Javier Valentin (get rid of Larue anyway I could)
OF Best 4th OF/PH type I can get
Staff
SP Ervin Santana
SP Aaron Harang
SP Brandon McCarthy
SP Homer Bailey
SP Elizardo Ramirez
LRP Matt Belisle
LHMR J.C Romero
LHMR2 Brian Shackelford
RHMR Scott Williamson
RHMR2 Todd Coffey
SU Jonathan Broxton
CP Juan Rincůn

Summary: Maybe the lineup isnít what it has been, but its young and talented. The defense is much improved with Edwin gone and Aybar replacing Lopez at short. The real key is the pitching. I feel the Reds go from one of the worst staffs in the game a year ago to one of the best young staffs around. We have 3 potential aces and a potential dominant future closer, plus proven (and still pretty young) commodities in Harang and Rincon. All in all, I know this will never happen, but I donít think Iím crazy in thinking each individual move would be doable from the other teamís perspective and thinking that the Reds would greatly benefit if this was the team next year.

reds44
07-07-2006, 03:00 AM
Trade 3B Edwin Encarnacion to the Twins for MR Juan Rincon
Explanation: Twins need some offense, Reds need bullpen help. May seem like a lot to give up but good relief pitching is hard to find as we know.

You seriously under value Edwin. No way I trade him for 1 middle reliever. 1 top line starter, then I will think about it.

You don't move a 23 year old player with the bat Edwin has, no matter how suspect his defense in for 3 middle relievers, much less 1. If worse comes to worst, 1B will be where Edwin ends up, not another team.


Trade SS Felipe Lopez to the White Sox for SP Brandon McCarthy
Explanation: This might be a stretch as well, but if possible, it would be a shrewd move to take advantage of the White Sox glut of SP and lack of a quality SS, and with Aybar on board, the soon to be expensive Lopez becomes expendable.

Sox don't need a SS, they are more then happy with Uribe.


Trade OF BJ Szymanski to the Cubs for MR Scott Williamson
Explanation: Williamson’s been making some comments lately. Cubs probably looking for some youth, though it may be naive to think they’d help a division rival. I’d sweeten the pot a little if necessary, but wouldn’t go overboard.


The only thing B.J. will bring is a 6 pack of Miller.


Trade SP Bronson Arroyo to the Dodgers for MR Jonathan Broxton and 3B Andy Laroche
Explanation: Not much SP out there. The NL West is there for the taking, so the Dodgers would probably be willing to pay for a guy whose been one of the best in baseball thus far. Broxton is a future closer (something the Reds need more than starters at this point) and Laroche replaces Encarnacion as the 3B of the future. I know it would be very hard from a PR standpoint for Kriv to move Bronson at all let alone while we're very much alive, but his value will never be higher and quite frankly, I don’t think he’s this good.


Umm no.


No way I trade Eddy or Arroyo. I wouldn't trade Dunn either. Kearns and Lopez are your major trading pieces.

How about Reds trade OF Austin Kearns to Cubs for Scott Erye and Bob Howry?

MWM
07-07-2006, 03:02 AM
Without Dunn, EdE, or Lopez the Reds would be lucky to score 600 runs. there would be no need for a good bullpen at that point.

KronoRed
07-07-2006, 03:04 AM
We could certainly set a nice record for being shut out

oregonred
07-07-2006, 03:12 AM
Keep EdE, Harang, Arroyo (plus Bailey and Bruce) and one of BP/Lopez as your cheap foundation pieces. Finding above average rotation pieces is beyond impossible for the Reds franchise -- I think you have to build the next 4-5 years around Harang/Arroyo and hope Bailey hits the scene by at least ST 2008. Keep 2 cheap and athletic infielders. Everyone else should be considered expendable for the right price.

IMO, Dunn should no longer be untradeable due to his becoming a $12M player beginning next season. For payroll purposes, one of Kearns/Dunn/Lopez is going to have to go after 2007 due to the overvalued service time $$$$ they will command in the market

KennyGJr
07-07-2006, 03:34 AM
Wow I guess this turned out to be more laughable than I thought. Just to exlain, I do understand Encarnacion and Dunn could probably fetch more, but I was trying to propose trades that I thought the Reds could convince other teams to make. On that point, I probably did overvalue Szymanski and perhaps Lopez/McCarthy wouldnt be plausible, but I do disagree with the thoughts that we would not be better off with that roster than the one we have now. The offense is not great right away, but we'd have a young promising infield, and with Griffey, Kearns, Deno, and Bruce still in the org, our OF is still above average, and the pitching staff is IMO significantly better. Although I'll admit that I could be overvalueing bullpen and undervalueing offense based on what we've seen here in recent years.

jimbo
07-07-2006, 04:10 AM
IMO, Dunn should no longer be untradeable due to his becoming a $12M player beginning next season. For payroll purposes, one of Kearns/Dunn/Lopez is going to have to go after 2007 due to the overvalued service time $$$$ they will command in the market

Dunn has the most upside of any position player on this team. In my opinion, while I wouldn't go so far as to say he is untradeable, he is about as close to it as anyone on this team. Dunn and Phillips are the two players I would build a future around. I'm considering position players here only, not pitchers.

RisingReds
07-07-2006, 05:06 AM
is this some kind of sick joke? lol

all the offense would be gone

in my opinion i would keep edwin, felipe would be near untouchable, and dunn is the one i would trade for pitching, just because i feel his stats show he's a little better than he actually is (RISP, and hr/rbi ratio) and it would be nice to land a good pitcher.

MaineRed
07-07-2006, 07:27 AM
The reason the Reds need relievers more than starter is because of guys like Bronson. Trade him and your going to need some starting pitching.

Harrang and hope for rain?

max venable
07-07-2006, 10:17 AM
all the offense would be gone


Yeah, but we'd be fine as far as middle relievers go. ;)

reds1869
07-07-2006, 11:02 AM
DanO, is that you?

Newman4
07-07-2006, 11:34 AM
Trade OF BJ Szymanski to the Cubs for MR Scott Williamson
Explanation: Williamsonís been making some comments lately. Cubs probably looking for some youth, though it may be naive to think theyíd help a division rival. Iíd sweeten the pot a little if necessary, but wouldnít go overboard.

I like this idea. Willy is there for the taking. However, if you suggest B.J. they'd probably counter with Deno.

IslandRed
07-07-2006, 11:42 AM
Just to exlain, I do understand Encarnacion and Dunn could probably fetch more, but I was trying to propose trades that I thought the Reds could convince other teams to make.

It's not hard to convince the other team to make a deal if you're offering more than you're asking. But the point of the exercise isn't just to get deals done, it's to get deals done that make the Reds a better ballclub. We need bullpen help, sure, but relief pitchers are the most volatile of players and it's usually a bad idea to give up top-shelf talent to get them.

nmculbreth
07-07-2006, 03:06 PM
Trade LF Adam Dunn to the Angels for SS Erick Aybar, SP Ervin Santana and MR JC Romero
Explanation: The Angels are desperate for a bat and Santana’s name has been floating around. With Kendrick, Wood, Cabrera and Izturis, the Angels can afford to move Aybar. I would push for Kendrick or Wood, but again I was going for realism. Romero, another former Twin reliever, would seem like a guy Kriv would jump on and having a bad year, perhaps could be thrown in. Maybe doesn’t seem like the ideal package for Dunn, but in my mind, if you can get Santana, a potential 10 year top of the rotation guy, its worth it.


I really like this trade idea and I don't think it is unrealistic. Santana is an excellent young pitcher with ace potential, adding him to our staff would be a huge boost for now and the future. I also like targeting Aybar, unless the Angels plan on moving Wood to 3B they don't have anywhere to play him and adding him would give the Reds the ability to entertain trade offers for Lopez. I'm indifferent on Romero, he might be able to help the bullpen but I don't think he's got any long term value. I'd really hate to lose Dunn but I couldn't pass on the chance to get a future ace and a very good SS prospect.

reds44
07-07-2006, 03:10 PM
is this some kind of sick joke? lol

all the offense would be gone

in my opinion i would keep edwin, felipe would be near untouchable, and dunn is the one i would trade for pitching, just because i feel his stats show he's a little better than he actually is (RISP, and hr/rbi ratio) and it would be nice to land a good pitcher.
I don't know about this one. I think we should trade him while his value is high.

jimbo
07-07-2006, 03:21 PM
I don't know about this one. I think we should trade him while his value is high.

I agree.....Lopez and EE both on the left side of the infield leads to one of the worst defensive left sides of the infield in all of baseball. 29 errors combined form the both of them is unacceptable. I wouldn't have a problem with both EE and Lopez being shopped around. If they are both here next spring training, I would like to see Lopez and Phillips switched and maybe EE to 1B, if Votto isn't ready.

As much as everyone wants Dunn moved, I think he, along with Phillips, are the two guys you definitely keep. You want a guy on your team that has Dunn's HR/AB ratio. You build around him with disciplined contact hitters and speed.

IrishDavidKY
07-07-2006, 03:28 PM
The possibilities of all those seem slim to none, not to mention the whole adding pitching to completely elminate your offsense.

On a side note, I think Williamson could be had from the Cubs for a mid-range minor leaguer. Currently Williamson is keep the bullpen bench warm.

reds44
07-07-2006, 03:38 PM
I agree.....Lopez and EE both on the left side of the infield leads to one of the worst defensive left sides of the infield in all of baseball. 29 errors combined form the both of them is unacceptable. I wouldn't have a problem with both EE and Lopez being shopped around. If they are both here next spring training, I would like to see Lopez and Phillips switched and maybe EE to 1B, if Votto isn't ready.

As much as everyone wants Dunn moved, I think he, along with Phillips, are the two guys you definitely keep. You want a guy on your team that has Dunn's HR/AB ratio. You build around him with disciplined contact hitters and speed.
Dunn, BP, and Edwin. I just don't think you trade 23 year olds that can hit in the majors like Edwin does. If Edwin eventually needs to be moved to 1st then so be it. However, I do not trade Edwin (if he moves to 1st) to make room for Votto. Votto and Edwin are both 23, and Edwin is the majors while Votto is in AA. That isn't even meant to be a knock on Votto, but it just shows you how good Edwin is. You keep him whether he is playing 3rd or 1st.

PuffyPig
07-07-2006, 04:02 PM
errors are to fielding prowess what BA is to hitting ability.......

Don't suggest someone is a bad defensive player simply because of errors. It's more important to consider range and arm strength. EE may be making alot of errors, but he'll eventually be an above average defensive player. Lopez doesn't have the range he had before his injuries some years back, but, as a total package, he's an average defensive SS.

KennyGJr
07-07-2006, 04:10 PM
I would agree that it is probably unrealistic from our perspective to make all of these trades from a PR standpoint (as evidenced by the understandable response on this board), but I honestly do believe that each of these trades individually would at least be considered and I still think we would be in better shape with that roster. Maybe we don't have as many big guns on offense, but I think you are underrating that lineup. Laroche, Aybar and Votto are fine young hitting prospects, who are not far off. We still have Griffey, Kearns and Phillips as known commodities, Freel and Hatteberg off the bench, plus Deno and David Ross get the chance to play everyday and show what they really are. Will that lineup lead the league in runs or HR? No, but I think in time it could become more consistent than the one we have now with less boom or bust type hitters.

My main point though is this pitching staff is one that almost any team in baseball would be jealous of. Santana and McCarthy both have a much higher upside than Arroyo, and both have pitched well at the ML level so it is not as if it is a crazy risk to think they will succeed. Throw in Bailey and Harang and I believe this is the best young rotation possibly in the game. In the pen, I really like Broxton, I think he will be a dominant reliever and his numbers do nothing to discount that. And I understand it may not be the smartest move on paper to trade Edwin for a MR, but Rincon is a 26yo who has put up these numbers the last 4 yrs;

2003 Min 58 0 0 0 85.2 74 38 35 5 38 63 5 6 0 5 1 3.68
2004 Min 77 0 0 0 82.0 52 27 24 5 32 106 11 6 2 16 4 2.63
2005 Min 75 0 0 0 77.0 63 26 21 2 30 84 6 6 0 25 5 2.46
2006 Min 39 0 0 0 42.2 36 15 10 0 14 39 3 0 1 12 2 2.11

If you look around baseball, there are not many young relief pitchers of this pedigree around let alone available, and I love Edwin's bat, but we dont know if he will ever be a capable 3B defensively and either way, I think a Closer is more valuable than a positiion player. All in all, I understand the criticism and perhaps I am off base, but I still am not convinced that we would not be better off.

reds44
07-07-2006, 04:16 PM
You don't trade a 23 year old major league player for 1 middle reliever. Edwin has nowhere but up to go.

Razor Shines
07-07-2006, 04:28 PM
You don't trade a 23 year old major league player for 1 middle reliever. Edwin has nowhere but up to go.
I don't know if that's true. You're telling me that there have never been players who have started out their careers hitting well but fizzled out into nothing? I think most likely yes he will get better and better, but I don't think he has no where to go but up. But I would agree with the part about not trading EE for 1 middle reliever, but there are some 23 year old major league players I would trade for that.

KennyGJr
07-07-2006, 04:45 PM
You don't trade a 23 year old major league player for 1 middle reliever. Edwin has nowhere but up to go.

I think thats an unfair way to look at the trade. I understand Edwin's age and performance, but if you look around baseball, there are a lot more good young 3B than good young relievers. How many teams in baseball are desperate for relievers? It's not as if Rincon is some has been that we're taking a flyer on, he's been consistent for several years and he's in his prime. If the Twins put this guy on the market right now, plenty of teams would offer impressive packages of prospects, but my hope would be that Edwin's success at the major league level would make him to tempting for the Twins (who have bullpen depth and need some cheap, young bats) to pass up.

jimbo
07-07-2006, 04:49 PM
errors are to fielding prowess what BA is to hitting ability.......

Don't suggest someone is a bad defensive player simply because of errors. It's more important to consider range and arm strength. EE may be making alot of errors, but he'll eventually be an above average defensive player. Lopez doesn't have the range he had before his injuries some years back, but, as a total package, he's an average defensive SS.

Arm strength and range means little when you can't get the ball to first as a third baseman. Hasn't this been an issue with EE for some time now? If he continues to throw that side arm crap, he will always have this problem. He may very well improve, he very well may not. I don't suggest someone is a bad defensive player because of errors, but I will if he has a high number of them.

jimbo
07-07-2006, 04:59 PM
Dunn, BP, and Edwin. I just don't think you trade 23 year olds that can hit in the majors like Edwin does. If Edwin eventually needs to be moved to 1st then so be it. However, I do not trade Edwin (if he moves to 1st) to make room for Votto. Votto and Edwin are both 23, and Edwin is the majors while Votto is in AA. That isn't even meant to be a knock on Votto, but it just shows you how good Edwin is. You keep him whether he is playing 3rd or 1st.

I'm not advocating trading EE for a 36 year old rent-a-player. Position players are much easier to replace than pitching. There are several young players on this team who have a high value because of their age. Keeping them around without obtaining better pitching and improving the defense will most likely not allow this team to take it to the next level.

This team has to get better defensively and with the pitching. The question is how long do you give players like Lopez and EE to improve their defense, and I'm not questiong their range? It's even a bigger question with a team that is contending. I'm to the point where I close my eyes everytime the ball is hit to the left side because you never know where the ball is going after it's caught.

reds44
07-07-2006, 05:28 PM
I'm not advocating trading EE for a 36 year old rent-a-player. Position players are much easier to replace than pitching. There are several young players on this team who have a high value because of their age. Keeping them around without obtaining better pitching and improving the defense will most likely not allow this team to take it to the next level.

This team has to get better defensively and with the pitching. The question is how long do you give players like Lopez and EE to improve their defense, and I'm not questiong their range? It's even a bigger question with a team that is contending. I'm to the point where I close my eyes everytime the ball is hit to the left side because you never know where the ball is going after it's caught.
Edwin is a 23 year old in his first full season, Felipe is 26. There is alot of difference there. You give Edwin much longer then Felipe.

Although it sure appears Edwin will eventually playing 1st base since they had him playing it during his regab stint.

Ltlabner
07-07-2006, 06:35 PM
Although it sure appears Edwin will eventually playing 1st base since they had him playing it during his regab stint.

You say this despite The Kriv's firm statement that EE will be at 3B and he has no intention of moving him to 1B. Do you know something behind the sceens that we don't?

reds44
07-07-2006, 06:36 PM
You say this despite The Kriv's firm statement that EE will be at 3B and he has no intention of moving him to 1B. Do you know something behind the sceens that we don't?
Do you believe everything Jerry and Wayne tell you?

No I know nothing you guys don't, I was just making an observation.

KronoRed
07-07-2006, 06:37 PM
Wayne is plotting against us ;)

Ltlabner
07-07-2006, 06:51 PM
Encarnacion will rejoin the Reds after missing nearly a month with a sprained left ankle. When he does, Krivsky emphasized Wednesday, he will be playing third base. The question arose after Encarnacion started at first base Monday and Tuesday for the Bats, but Krivsky said not to read anything into it. "It's just an opportunity to see what he looks like over there and give him some exposure at another position," said Krivsky. "We're not looking at him to be our first baseman. When he comes back, it's playing third."


Do you believe everything Jerry and Wayne tell you? So I guess the above quote from The Kriv (From Marc Lancaster at cincypost.com) is a complete lie. To acomplish what exactly? What purpose would such a lie accomplish? Please explain to us what sort of evil plot is going on behind our backs?

This is the second time in two days that people have claimed Reds management to be liars (The Kriv specifically) with zero, zip, nada evidence to support their statements. No proof. No back-up. Nothing.

6 months is all management gets in Cincinnati to build a world series winning powerhouse team. If it doesn't happen by then look out!! An entire gaggle of arm-chair GM's who've never stepped foot into the front office will jump all over them and criticize there every last move. And begin to float conspiricy laced ideas about their alleged sinister deeds.

I have no problems with people not liking the management's decisions, complaining about them, or debating them. But to start to claim that management, or a specific person, is overtly lieing to acomplish some nefarious plot is 100% silly.

reds44
07-07-2006, 07:00 PM
So I guess the above quote from The Kriv (From Marc Lancaster at cincypost.com) is a complete lie. To acomplish what exactly? What purpose would such a lie accomplish? Please explain to us what sort of evil plot is going on behind our backs?

This is the second time in two days that people have claimed Reds management to be liars (The Kriv specifically) with zero, zip, nada evidence to support their statements. No proof. No back-up. Nothing.

6 months is all management gets in Cincinnati to build a world series winning powerhouse team. If it doesn't happen by then look out!! An entire gaggle of arm-chair GM's who've never stepped foot into the front office will jump all over them and criticize there every last move. And begin to float conspiricy laced ideas about their alleged sinister deeds.

I have no problems with people not liking the management's decisions, complaining about them, or debating them. But to start to claim that management, or a specific person, is overtly lieing to acomplish some nefarious plot is 100% silly.
You don't find it odd that as soon as the Reds could find a way to get Edwin on the roster (by sending Elizardo on a start in Dayton over the break) he was magically ready to play? You don't think he could have come back sooner?

wheels
07-07-2006, 07:08 PM
You don't find it odd that as soon as the Reds could find a way to get Edwin on the roster (by sending Elizardo on a start in Dayton over the break) he was magically ready to play? You don't think he could have come back sooner?

A trade in the works (Guardado), and the roster crunch that goes along with it, maybe?


It's not as easy as just sending a guy down and calling him up. Wayne obviously had some moves in the offing, and Edwin was not the top priority at the time.

I think it was just that simple.

jimbo
07-07-2006, 07:29 PM
You don't find it odd that as soon as the Reds could find a way to get Edwin on the roster (by sending Elizardo on a start in Dayton over the break) he was magically ready to play? You don't think he could have come back sooner?

It sounds as if they wanted him to play a few games at 1B and the OF. Also, from what EE has said, his ankle still isn't 100%. I'm sure they wanted him as close to 100% as possible.