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View Full Version : Could Encarnacion's days be numbered?



Spitball
07-08-2006, 12:01 PM
I hate to say it, but I get the feeling the Reds have lost confidence in Edwin Encarnacion's ability to play third base. It seems they have really dragged their feet in getting him back onto the field and into the line-up. It might be the lingering nature of his injury, but...:confused:

If the Reds are reasonably close at the deadline, could EE be their blue chip trading piece? They have Freel, Aurilia, and Castro to play third, but very little really valuable prospects to swap for pitching. Denorfia is nice but outfielders are plentiful and I'm not certain how he ranks on anyones wish list with all the Quentins, Youngs, Milledges, and Gonzalezes out there. A promising third baseman would probably bring more.

I can see the Padres (Linebrink) or the Phillies (Gordon) or Mariners (Moyer) possibly packaging some help. How about Schmidt for EE?

Tommyjohn25
07-08-2006, 12:16 PM
I think if any of the infielders are trading pieces, it's FeLo. He and Edwins defense are pretty much equally regarded (likely to make big play, liable to mess up the routine), the main differences are the fact that Lopez is a Boras client, has been in the league longer, and we have others that can play SS full time (Phillips). Not necessarily saying I agree with it, but I think it's more likely than EE getting moved.

reds44
07-08-2006, 12:17 PM
They have Freel, Aurilia, and Castro to play third
Why would you trade your best prospect so 3 utility players can play?


I think if any of the infielders are trading pieces, it's FeLo. He and Edwins defense are pretty much equally regarded (likely top make big play, liable to mess up the routine), the main differences are the fact that Lopez is a Boras client, has been in the league longer, and we have others that can play SS full time (Phillips). Not necessarily saying I agree with it, but I think it's more likely than EE getting moved.
I agree.

Spitball
07-08-2006, 12:31 PM
Why would you trade your best prospect so 3 utility players can play?


I'm not saying I think it is a good plan, just what might be "written on the wall". Encarnacion makes an error one night and then is out of the line-up the next. I couple that with what appears to be a slow push to get him back in the line-up and Castro's arrival.

And, I don't believe Lopez is as valuable for the very reasons mentioned. Why would, say the Giants, dump a Schmidt to acquire a Scott Boras client who is moving closer to free agency? Teams would like a player who is locked to them for a few more years.

PuffyPig
07-08-2006, 12:38 PM
Why would, say the Giants, dump a Schmidt to acquire a Scott Boras client who is moving closer to free agency? Teams would like a player who is locked to them for a few more years.

Schmidt is a FA after this season. Lopez is a number of years away. Lopez may not be signed for next year, but he is locked up to his team.

SF is also in the race for the Division and the Wild Card. It's unlikley they would move Schmidt unless they get an immediate return that helps them now.

I also don't think there's much chance that we would trade EE, unless we got a very good young, cheap pitcher who's already pitching well in the majors. He won't be moved for a rental. Good cheap players can't be moved by the Reds unless we get a similiar (but perhaps more pressing need) return.

membengal
07-08-2006, 12:41 PM
I hate to say it, but I get the feeling the Reds have lost confidence in Edwin Encarnacion's ability to play third base. It seems they have really dragged their feet in getting him back onto the field and into the line-up. It might be the lingering nature of his injury, but...:confused:


Just noting that Spitball is not an alter ego handle of mine...

BrooklynRedz
07-08-2006, 01:01 PM
No, I wouldn't sweat it. All young players are eased back onto the field after suffering an injury of this nature. Despite all the complaining about Naron's treatment and development of young players, I'm ecstatic with the handling of FeLo, Phillips and EE. He seems to keep them hungry and grounded in times of success and boosting morale during slumps.

Spitball
07-08-2006, 01:37 PM
I hope you are all correct. Right now, I see some signs that the confidence isn't there.



Just noting that Spitball is not an alter ego handle of mine...

What does that mean?

Kc61
07-08-2006, 01:47 PM
I hope you are all correct. Right now,, though I see some signs that the confidence isn't there.


I am sure the Reds are concerned about EE's throwing. It's hard to believe they would trade him. But, in a playoff race, it is difficult to have both EE and Lopez out there defensively, they just make so many errors.

I assume the Reds will keep him but rest him frequently and use the coaching staff to help him with his throwing. He is still very young.

membengal
07-08-2006, 02:19 PM
I hope you are all correct. Right now, I see some signs that the confidence isn't there.




What does that mean?

Sorry, I have been beaten up for days on the EE to the DL thread and the Castro playing time thread for the same opinion/concern. Just glad to see someone else step forward with the same observation.

Spitball
07-08-2006, 02:36 PM
I am sure the Reds are concerned about EE's throwing. It's hard to believe they would trade him. But, in a playoff race, it is difficult to have both EE and Lopez out there defensively, they just make so many errors.

I assume the Reds will keep him but rest him frequently and use the coaching staff to help him with his throwing. He is still very young.

If the Reds are still in the race on July 31 and the Cards, Brewers, and Astros are bolstering their teams with key acquisitions, I believe the "win now" mentality surely will entice the Reds to make moves of their own.

There are ten page threads griping everytime a Yan, Castro, or Guardado is acquired. If the Reds are going to get a decent return, they are going to have to trade something of value. I may be wrong, but I don't think the market will favor the seller this year, and the Reds are going to have dip into a pretty thin crop of tradeables to get a decent return. Encarnacion may be of more value to another organization that is not so concerned about his defense. I don't think he is as highly regarded by this front office as he is on this board and elsewhere.

Spitball
07-08-2006, 02:39 PM
Sorry, I have been beaten up for days on the EE to the DL thread and the Castro playing time thread for the same opinion/concern. Just glad to see someone else step forward with the same observation.

Gotcha', I usually stay away from the EE discussions so I didn't know what you were talking about. :)

Reds1
07-08-2006, 03:10 PM
Face it. His defense sucked and even in one of his 1st games he had an error that costs us the game. I'd personally rather see Aurilia in there. Or, even Freel for that matter. I'd like to see EE get 2-3 starts a week, but until we are out of it he's not the guy. We have a chance to win. Did you see that double play last night from BP and Castro. EE couldn't have done that.

membengal
07-08-2006, 03:12 PM
How old is Aurilia, again? How old is EE? Which one has the chance to be something for this team in four years? I forget which, hmmmm, they must be VERY close in age. Or not.

Oh, and EE doesn't play SS or 2b, so, no, he could not have turned that DP. Sharp observation.

PuffyPig
07-08-2006, 03:17 PM
Face it. His defense sucked and even in one of his 1st games he had an error that costs us the game. I'd personally rather see Aurilia in there. Or, even Freel for that matter. I'd like to see EE get 2-3 starts a week, but until we are out of it he's not the guy. We have a chance to win. Did you see that double play last night from BP and Castro. EE couldn't have done that.

Either could Aurilia or Freel, and they are MI's, unlike EE.

I haven't seen a post in quite so long that I've disagreed with more.

reds44
07-08-2006, 03:24 PM
Face it. His defense sucked and even in one of his 1st games he had an error that costs us the game. I'd personally rather see Aurilia in there. Or, even Freel for that matter. I'd like to see EE get 2-3 starts a week, but until we are out of it he's not the guy. We have a chance to win. Did you see that double play last night from BP and Castro. EE couldn't have done that.
Edwin plays 3rd base, not 2nd or SS.

Sometimes I think some of us forget Edwin is 23, he isn't going to be good at everything right away. He is a really good hitter at such a young age, and has all the "tools" to be a good defender. He has great range, and a very strong arm, he just needs to work on accuracy. We were 8-16 while Edwin was on the DL, but you don't think he is important to the team? When he was healthy, he was argueable our best offensive player.

Face it, Edwin helps the team much more then he hurts them.

Matt700wlw
07-08-2006, 03:44 PM
If 3rd base doesn't pan out....try first.


He has to much talent to give up on.

membengal
07-08-2006, 03:47 PM
If 3rd base doesn't pan out....try first.


He has to much talent to give up on.

Right. So the team can block Joey Votto too. That makes no sense.

Matt700wlw
07-08-2006, 03:49 PM
Right. So the team can block Joey Votto too. That makes no sense.

If Edwin can be a solid first baseman (assuming 3rd doesn't work out, which I hope it does), then Votto can be used to get pitching.

reds44
07-08-2006, 03:50 PM
Right. So the team can block Joey Votto too. That makes no sense.
Votto couldn't hold Edwin's jock. If it comes down to getting rid of Edwin or blocking Votto, you block Votto.

Votto and Edwin are the same age (or just about) and Edwin is producing in the majors, and Votto is in AA.

Jpup
07-08-2006, 03:52 PM
Right. So the team can block Joey Votto too. That makes no sense.

leftfield should be the next step if 3rd base doesn't work out. If EdE would learn to throw the ball overhand instead of slinging it sidearm, he would do much better.

reds44
07-08-2006, 03:53 PM
If 3rd base doesn't pan out....try first.


He has to much talent to give up on.
He hasn't even played 162 games at 3rd base in his major league career yet. If the Reds give up on him, then they have the patience of somebody on speed.

He only has played 108 major league games.
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=cin&playerID=429665

Be patient.

membengal
07-08-2006, 03:53 PM
Reds44---That's a lot of anger toward a 22-year-old 1b who is leading in all the triple crown categories at AA and OPSing .980. My goodness.

Here's a radical thought. Freakin' give the g-d at-bats to EE at 3b, make room for Votto at 1b next year, and rejoice at having your infield of the future on the field now.

There is no reason to engage in this kind of line-up shenanigans to keep accomodating players like Aurilia and Castro. It is insanity.

Raisor
07-08-2006, 03:54 PM
Face it. His defense sucked and even in one of his 1st games he had an error that costs us the game. I'd personally rather see Aurilia in there. Or, even Freel for that matter. I'd like to see EE get 2-3 starts a week, but until we are out of it he's not the guy. We have a chance to win. Did you see that double play last night from BP and Castro. EE couldn't have done that.


Castro 268/337
Aurillia 316/488
Eddie 361/474

Eddie more then makes it up with his stick.

reds44
07-08-2006, 03:56 PM
Reds44---That's a lot of anger toward a 22-year-old 1b who is leading in all the triple crown categories at AA and OPSing .980. My goodness.

Here's a radical thought. Freakin' give the g-d at-bats to EE at 3b, make room for Votto at 1b next year, and rejoice at having your infield of the future on the field now.

There is no reason to engage in this kind of line-up shenanigans to keep accomodating players like Aurilia and Castro. It is insanity.
I agree leave Edwin at 3rd, and Votto at 1st.

However if it comes down to keeping Votto or Edwin you keep Edwin without even thinking.

Edwin is OPSing 835 in the majors and is 23 years old. You don't trade that. He should be playing everyday just as Dunn and Kearns do.

KronoRed
07-08-2006, 03:58 PM
It would be criminally insane for the Reds to give up on EE this soon, teams that win don't so things like that, teams that love to lose and think playing near .500 is success do things like that.

membengal
07-08-2006, 03:58 PM
And you don't block the way of Votto to the bigs to move EE after one half of one season at 3b. Somewhere in the bowels of this site, someone looked up Mike Schmidt's errors in his first three or so years at 3b. They were huge. Patience, a virtue apparently not blessed upon Narron or WK, is in order here.

KronoRed
07-08-2006, 03:58 PM
Castro 268/337
Aurillia 316/488
Eddie 361/474

Eddie more then makes it up with his stick.
Yeah but EE isn't scrappy and doesn't make routine plays look special like some "slick" fielders ;)

reds44
07-08-2006, 03:59 PM
And you don't block the way of Votto to the bigs to move EE after one half of one season at 3b. Somewhere in the bowels of this site, someone looked up Mike Schmidt's errors in his first three or so years at 3b. They were huge. Patience, a virtue apparently not blessed upon Narron or WK, is in order here.
I agree 100% with you.

It isn't even patience at this point. It is just not being amazingly stupid. Edwin hasn't even played 130 games in his major league career yet. He is going to make mistakes, alot of them. Everyone does.

wheels
07-08-2006, 04:01 PM
Edwin is OPSing 835 in the majors and is 23 years old. You don't trade that.

Or mess with his head by switching positions.

His range, compared to that of the other elder statesmen mentioned here is god like.

So he flips one into the stands here and there. Oh well, get 'em next time, kid.

This first base stuff is just more nonsense perpetuated by Marty and his disdain for younger players.

Jpup
07-08-2006, 04:02 PM
Or mess with his head by switching positions.

His range, compared to that of the other elder statesmen mentioned here is god like.

So he flips one into the stands here and there. Oh well, get 'em next time, kid.

This first base stuff is just more nonsense perpetuated by Marty and his disdain for younger players.

How do you blame it on Marty?

reds44
07-08-2006, 04:03 PM
Or mess with his head by switching positions.

His range, compared to that of the other elder statesmen mentioned here is god like.

So he flips one into the stands here and there. Oh well, get 'em next time, kid.

This first base stuff is just more nonsense perpetuated by Marty and his disdain for younger players.
Oh I agree 100%. I don't know if I sounded like I wanted him to move positions, but I definately do not. All I was saying that if he has to play 1B to be on the team then so be it.

Edwin should be playing everyday and at 3rd base. He should probably be hitting in the middle of the order also.

Don't tell that to Narron.

Heath
07-08-2006, 04:43 PM
And you don't block the way of Votto to the bigs to move EE after one half of one season at 3b. Somewhere in the bowels of this site, someone looked up Mike Schmidt's errors in his first three or so years at 3b. They were huge. Patience, a virtue apparently not blessed upon Narron or WK, is in order here.


Don't make me look up Schmidt vs. Encarnacion stuff again - it took me a few hours and I forgot to save it after I posted it.

I'm searching after I close this window.

KronoRed
07-08-2006, 04:48 PM
Tabs Heath, then you don't need to close windows ;)

Highlifeman21
07-08-2006, 06:10 PM
Right. So the team can block Joey Votto too. That makes no sense.

Put Joey Votto on the Howington or Gruler plan for the Reds.

Lotta hype, won't pan out.

I would much rather see EE @ 1B than Joey Votto, but I've seen some manlove around the board for Mr. Votto. Aside from Kearns, Dunn and now possibly EE, when was the last time the Reds truly developed a hitting prospect?

wheels
07-08-2006, 06:14 PM
How do you blame it on Marty?

Marty's opined numerous times that Edwin should move to first.

Highlifeman21
07-08-2006, 06:17 PM
And you don't block the way of Votto to the bigs to move EE after one half of one season at 3b. Somewhere in the bowels of this site, someone looked up Mike Schmidt's errors in his first three or so years at 3b. They were huge. Patience, a virtue apparently not blessed upon Narron or WK, is in order here.


And we all know how much Phillies fans to this day undervalued the best third baseman to ever play the game. Not trying to make comparison between Michael Jack and EE, but rather than live thru EE's growing pains in terms of errors, find him a position where he's comfortable, and if that's 1B, then let EE play 1B. If it's 3B, then let EE play 3B. I agree we should have some patience, but I would rather see EE excel where he's comfortable.

Now Lopez's errors, they aren't growing pains. They are the #1 reason we should be actively shopping him in the offseason for pitching. Scott Boras is the #2 reason.

reds44
07-08-2006, 06:29 PM
Marty's opined numerous times that Edwin should move to first.
And Felipe to 3B
And BP to SS
And Dunn out of town.

Aronchis
07-08-2006, 09:43 PM
EE is to good a athlete to waste at 1st. Literally. Votto already plays a BETTER 1st base than EE and he can actually run unlike 1st baseman we have been trotting out there for the last 10 years. Shame, a infield that can all run. Boo hoo:mooner:

Put him at 3rd, let him get better. Simple as that. Deal with that reality and move on. Making it a problem will have Krivsky's neck in rope quickly. Stabbing yourself in the foot isn't necessary.

Phhhl
07-08-2006, 09:45 PM
Well, you don't usually keep a 23 year old prospect on the bench for long. He either plays, or he goes back down so he can play every day in the minors. I don't like Narron's recent work either, but I have to believe that they will get Edwin plenty of playing time in the second half.

Johnny Vander m
07-08-2006, 10:04 PM
Need to send EE back down to AAA and learn how to throw. Also learn how to keep his head in the game. He looks like he is lost in a daze, remember either the first or second game of the year when he lazily walked over to pick up a ball he missed while the runner advanced?

I would be willing to bet he will not be with the club next year. Why all the love for him I will never figure out.

reds44
07-08-2006, 10:05 PM
Need to send EE back down to AAA and learn how to throw. Also learn how to keep his head in the game. He looks like he is lost in a daze, remember either the first or second game of the year when he lazily walked over to pick up a ball he missed while the runner advanced?

I would be willing to bet he will not be with the club next year. Why all the love for him I will never figure out.
Let me say this slowly.

He is 23
He is a good major league hitter right now
He has all the tools to be a good fielder

get it?

CTA513
07-08-2006, 10:08 PM
Need to send EE back down to AAA and learn how to throw. Also learn how to keep his head in the game. He looks like he is lost in a daze, remember either the first or second game of the year when he lazily walked over to pick up a ball he missed while the runner advanced?

I would be willing to bet he will not be with the club next year. Why all the love for him I will never figure out.

Couldnt this also be said about #44?

:evil:

Johnny Vander m
07-08-2006, 10:09 PM
Let me say this slowly.

He is 23
He is a good major league hitter right now
He has all the tools to be a good fielder

get it?


Maybe. Tools need to be honed and sharpened though. Did I hear AAA Louisville?

reds44
07-08-2006, 10:12 PM
Mabye. Tools need to be honed and sharpened though. Did I hear AAA Louisville?
He has been our best hitter this year.

He has 60 points of OBP on Griffey, he leads the team in extra base hits per AB, and RBIs per AB.

I have shown you are record with and without Edwin, I have shown you how many runs per game we score with and without Edwin.

You don't keep his bat in AAA. We are a better team when he plays.

Johnny Vander m
07-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Ok, I never said he couldn't hit. Would make a great DH in the American League.

reds44
07-08-2006, 10:16 PM
Ok, I never said he couldn't hit. Would make a great DH in the American League.
So you want him in AAA simply because he is a bad fielder?

Send Dunn and Lopez down with him.

M2
07-08-2006, 10:22 PM
He's not a bad fielder. He makes some errors, but he also comes up with a lot of gems. Hell, his "error" on Thursday wasn't even an error. Hatteberg's foot was on the bag when he caught the ball.

If the Reds are going to give up on a kid like Encarnacion because he's making some errors in his first full season in the majors then you can forget about this organization ever building around young talent. And if that's the case, then the Renaissance ain't happening any time soon.

Johnny Vander m
07-08-2006, 10:23 PM
So you want him in AAA simply because he is a bad fielder?

Send Dunn and Lopez down with him.


:D :eek: :( :confused: I give up ha ha, you would defend him if he made 4 errors a game and hit 202. Is he related to you? :devil: Oh come on, before you get mad at me, just messing with ya.

KronoRed
07-08-2006, 10:44 PM
Put Joey Votto on the Howington or Gruler plan for the Reds.

Lotta hype, won't pan out.

How come? not that I think he's gonna be an allstar but his minor league numbers do tell me he might be something

KronoRed
07-08-2006, 10:45 PM
And Felipe to 3B
And BP to SS
And Dunn out of town.
Don't forget Rich starting everyday

OnBaseMachine
07-08-2006, 11:00 PM
Yeah, count me in as one who would love to hear why someone thinks Votto will never pan out.

OnBaseMachine
07-08-2006, 11:08 PM
Prediction: Edwin Encarnacion will be traded before the year is over. It's becoming pretty obvious than Narron doesn't like him, plus Aaron Herr (3B) has been promoted to Louisville. Sadly I think he will be dealt, and that would be a damn shame because this kid has a ton of talent on both sides of the ball. He will be a perennial All-Star.

reds44
07-08-2006, 11:15 PM
Prediction: Edwin Encarnacion will be traded before the year is over. It's becoming pretty obvious than Narron doesn't like him, plus Aaron Herr (3B) has been promoted to Louisville. Sadly I think he will be dealt, and that would be a damn shame because this kid has a ton of talent on both sides of the ball. He will be a perennial All-Star.
Herr is a worse fielder then Edwin is.

Heath
07-08-2006, 11:48 PM
Prediction: Edwin Encarnacion will be traded before the year is over. It's becoming pretty obvious than Narron doesn't like him, plus Aaron Herr (3B) has been promoted to Louisville. Sadly I think he will be dealt, and that would be a damn shame because this kid has a ton of talent on both sides of the ball. He will be a perennial All-Star.

I hope WayneK has more sense than to trade a 23 yr old potential all-star so he can open up a hole for a career Double A 25 yr old who has a worse throwing arm.

Next time, OBM, toss the tongue-in-cheek smilie out there, will ya?

CTA513
07-08-2006, 11:51 PM
Herr is a worse fielder then Edwin is.

22 errors in AA this year.

:eek:

KronoRed
07-08-2006, 11:52 PM
I hope WayneK has more sense than to trade a 23 yr old potential all-star so he can open up a hole for a career Double A 25 yr old who has a worse throwing arm.

Next time, OBM, toss the tongue-in-cheek smilie out there, will ya?
Herr sounds like a scrappy guy who can do all the little things it takes to win :evil:

Heath
07-08-2006, 11:53 PM
Herr sounds like a scrappy guy who can do all the little things it takes to win :evil:


Krono, you are an evil, evil man......I'm negging you for that :evil: (Like it matters - :D )

Kc61
07-09-2006, 12:04 AM
I don't think the Reds are going to dump EE. I think he will eventually be the regular third baseman. He has a very quick bat and good defensive range. He looks like a player to me.

But EE has throwing issues and has been hurt. So they are not using him every day and left him down at AAA for awhile. They are going slow with him. I don't understand why this is such a problem.

I don't see them trading him because there is no other regular third baseman on the horizon. He is still the obvious choice for the position in the future. But that doesn't mean he has to start all the time at the age of 23.

SteelSD
07-09-2006, 12:19 AM
I don't think the Reds are going to dump EE. I think he will eventually be the regular third baseman. He has a very quick bat and good defensive range. He looks like a player to me.

But EE has throwing issues and has been hurt. So they are not using him every day and left him down at AAA for awhile. They are going slow with him. I don't understand why this is such a problem.

I don't see them trading him because there is no other regular third baseman on the horizon. He is still the obvious choice for the position in the future. But that doesn't mean he has to start all the time at the age of 23.

Because he needs reps. He needs reps. Repeat that times infinity.

redsrule2500
07-09-2006, 12:23 AM
I support the dealing of Lopez 100%, assuming we get good return obviously.

Phillips to SS is a no-brainer.

Johnny Vander m
07-09-2006, 12:27 AM
I don't think the Reds are going to dump EE. I think he will eventually be the regular third baseman. He has a very quick bat and good defensive range. He looks like a player to me.

But EE has throwing issues and has been hurt. So they are not using him every day and left him down at AAA for awhile. They are going slow with him. I don't understand why this is such a problem.

I don't see them trading him because there is no other regular third baseman on the horizon. He is still the obvious choice for the position in the future. But that doesn't mean he has to start all the time at the age of 23.


Makes more sense about EE than I have ever read on this board. You are 100% correct Kc61

Highlifeman21
07-09-2006, 07:15 AM
How come? not that I think he's gonna be an allstar but his minor league numbers do tell me he might be something

IIRC, the last hitter to make a jump from AA to the big club and have any impact for any team would be Albert Pujols. I could be completely wrong about that.

Votto strikes me as a guy that will never find much success at AAA, and will fizzle. Based on WK's edict to let players progress thru each level before being promoted, I don't see Votto finding success/progress at AAA. He may very well end up in AAA, but not even starting.

I would love to be wrong, but something about the Reds farm tells me that we love to not develop prospects.

GAC
07-09-2006, 08:17 AM
I hate to say it, but I get the feeling the Reds have lost confidence in Edwin Encarnacion's ability to play third base. It seems they have really dragged their feet in getting him back onto the field and into the line-up. It might be the lingering nature of his injury, but...:confused:

I personally think that Narron is simply trying to bring him back into the fold gradually and not simply throw him in there. But we'll see.


If the Reds are reasonably close at the deadline, could EE be their blue chip trading piece? They have Freel, Aurilia, and Castro to play third, but very little really valuable prospects to swap for pitching.

If (and I emphasize that) is their thinking, then it's taking steps back, not forward. And I really don't think that is Krivsky's thinking/approach, though IMO there really isn't any untradeables among the position players if it improves this team.

I think the above guys do, in Krivsky's mind, give us more options when it comes to trades, so that if we do lose on of the above we have someone to plug in there for a bit and not create a huge hole/weakness.


A promising third baseman would probably bring more.

I agree. But has EE proven himself to be a promising 3Bman since this is his first full season? Other teams are watching him just as much as we are.

We need pitching.... period!

And I really don't know if any of the guys being discussed will really bring us anything of quality in that area. I coud be wrong; but I've seen Red fans over value their players alot.

OnBaseMachine
07-09-2006, 08:53 AM
IIRC, the last hitter to make a jump from AA to the big club and have any impact for any team would be Albert Pujols. I could be completely wrong about that.

Votto strikes me as a guy that will never find much success at AAA, and will fizzle. Based on WK's edict to let players progress thru each level before being promoted, I don't see Votto finding success/progress at AAA. He may very well end up in AAA, but not even starting.

I would love to be wrong, but something about the Reds farm tells me that we love to not develop prospects.

Austin Kearns(he OPS'd .907 after callup), Miguel Cabrera, Jeremy Hermida, Matt Kemp, Mark Teixeira just to name a few.

Votto hits for average, power, shows a good eye at the plate, runs well. I really see nothing in his game that suggests he will be a bust, let alone not good enough to start at AAA.

membengal
07-09-2006, 09:44 AM
IIRC, the last hitter to make a jump from AA to the big club and have any impact for any team would be Albert Pujols. I could be completely wrong about that.

Votto strikes me as a guy that will never find much success at AAA, and will fizzle. Based on WK's edict to let players progress thru each level before being promoted, I don't see Votto finding success/progress at AAA. He may very well end up in AAA, but not even starting.

I would love to be wrong, but something about the Reds farm tells me that we love to not develop prospects.

Well, they appear to be developing Votto just fine. I don't know if you go to the minors forum or not, but there is a ton of good info and chatter in there in general, and some good stuff on Votto.

From the latest post in there, a quote from an article on Votto:


Chattanooga's Joey Votto, whose 19 homers have him on pace to surpass the 30-homer total, something only 30 Southern League hitters have done since '71, and who is gunning for a Triple Crown. He also leads the league with 56 RBIs and a .327 average. His league-leading 109 hits have him in position to threaten ex-Lookout Kevin Rhomberg's 25-year-old league record of 187.


Well. I wouldn't count him out of Cincy just yet. By the way, Baseball Prospectus just ranked him the third best 1b prospect in the minors. Pretty heady stuff.

Highlifeman21
07-09-2006, 10:16 AM
Well, they appear to be developing Votto just fine. I don't know if you go to the minors forum or not, but there is a ton of good info and chatter in there in general, and some good stuff on Votto.

From the latest post in there, a quote from an article on Votto:


Chattanooga's Joey Votto, whose 19 homers have him on pace to surpass the 30-homer total, something only 30 Southern League hitters have done since '71, and who is gunning for a Triple Crown. He also leads the league with 56 RBIs and a .327 average. His league-leading 109 hits have him in position to threaten ex-Lookout Kevin Rhomberg's 25-year-old league record of 187.


Well. I wouldn't count him out of Cincy just yet. By the way, Baseball Prospectus just ranked him the third best 1b prospect in the minors. Pretty heady stuff.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong and I can admit that, but I guess I've always had a hard time equating success in AA to success for a big league career.

OBM mentioned Cabrera, Hermida, and Teixeira, and I've never considered Votto to be a prospect of that caliber. Again, I could be wrong. Kearns and Dunn I knew had developed within our system, but they were the only ones I knew off the top of my head.

At this point in time, I'd rather Votto kinda stay under the radar and almost be a surprise development than be highly touted, as were Howington and Gruler. I know it's sort of an apples vs. oranges (hitters vs. pitchers) argument, but I just have a hard time putting my Reds hopes and dreams in something that's having 1 year of success at AA.

Like I said, I hope I'm wrong about Votto, but until he's putting up Denorfia type numbers at AAA, I'm not sure I'm sold. Heck, even Denorfia with his inflated AAA numbers may not see big league success.

Tony Cloninger
07-09-2006, 11:07 AM
I guess you think Votto is another Arturo DeFrietas or something? ;)

If anyone deserves the hype...it is Votto....this is what was expected of him a year ago. He has looked good from day 1. A mini-Dunn almost.

Redmachine2003
07-09-2006, 11:49 AM
Yeah lets trade away all of our young talent so we can have a bunch of experienced guys that no one wants. Like Castro, RA, SH, Merker, Weathers and on and on. This team needs to develop these kids or put guys in positions that they can play. They also need to get coaches that can develop players.

pedro
07-09-2006, 12:00 PM
There is no way in hell the Reds are trading EE. I think this whole topic is silly. The guy played almost everyday until he hurt himself and they are just bringing him back slowly IMO. FWIH, he still must ice his ankle after every game so it makes sense to me to handle him this way.

Jpup
07-09-2006, 12:09 PM
There is no way in hell the Reds are trading EE. I think this whole topic is silly. The guy played almost everyday until he hurt himself and they are just bringing him back slowly IMO. FWIH, he still must ice his ankle after every game so it makes sense to me to handle him this way.

3 days off in a row? how does that make 1 bit of sense? there is no way to justify him sitting for 3 straight days.

reds44
07-09-2006, 12:10 PM
3 days in a row he hasn't played now. Nobody has said anything about his ankle, all Narron said was we have to 'do the little things right'. It sure looks like his days are numbered.

pedro
07-09-2006, 12:14 PM
It sure does if his ankle is still needing to be iced after every game. Why not just let him sit until after the AS break?

reds44
07-09-2006, 12:15 PM
It sure does if his ankle is still needing to be iced after every game. Why not just let him sit until after the AS break?
Why did he play his 1st game back after playing like 13 games in 12 days in Louisville? I am sure it has nothing to do with the error he commited. /sarcasm.

pedro
07-09-2006, 12:15 PM
I think if anyone's days are numbered it's probably Lopez.

Marc D
07-09-2006, 12:17 PM
It sure does if his ankle is still needing to be iced after every game. Why not just let him sit until after the AS break?

How does the kid play everyday down at AAA on his rehab assignment but needs 3 days off for every one he starts back up here?

I was dubious before but its hard to argue much longer. Narron has some questions to answer regarding his use of one of our best young players.

Jpup
07-09-2006, 12:17 PM
It sure does if his ankle is still needing to be iced after every game. Why not just let him sit until after the AS break?

I would prefer that the Reds win today. He's getting ready to have 3 days off, if he can't play today then he should go back on the DL. If he is that hurt, he shouldn't be on the team. I don't like playing a man short. There is no reason for it.

Narron just doesn't want him in there.

pedro
07-09-2006, 12:17 PM
Why did he play his 1st game back after playing like 13 games in 12 days in Louisville? I am sure it has nothing to do with the error he commited. /sarcasm.


Maybe so they could get a read on his ankle for themselves. Don't know. I didn't see teh game he played in myself but I think it has more to do with his ankle than that Narron somehow hates him. If Narron hates him so much why did he playe almost everyday before he was hurt?

Jpup
07-09-2006, 12:18 PM
Maybe so they could get a read on his ankle for themselves. Don't know. I didn't see teh game he played in myself but I think it has more to do with his ankle than that Narron somehow hates him. If Narron hates him so much why did he playe almost everyday before he was hurt?

Krivsky?

maybe he's good?

2 options.

reds44
07-09-2006, 12:18 PM
Maybe so they could get a read on his ankle for themselves. Don't know. I didn't see teh game he played in myself but I think it has more to do with his ankle than that Narron somehow hates him. If Narron hates him so much why did he playe almost everyday before he was hurt?
Because he tore it up in spring training, and tore it up before he got hurt.

pedro
07-09-2006, 12:20 PM
Krivsky.


That's silly. If Krivsky wanted him to play then, then why not now?

Is Krivsky that impressed with the Reds tailspin that he wants to keep it going?

All this conspiracy stuff is cracking me up.

Jpup
07-09-2006, 12:21 PM
That's silly. If Krivsky wanted him to play then, then why not now?

Is Krivsky that impressed with the Reds tailspin that he wants to keep it going?

All this conspiracy stuff is cracking me up.

maybe it's funny, but it obviously has some merit to it. if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

pedro
07-09-2006, 12:22 PM
Because he tore it up in spring training, and tore it up before he got hurt.


really? You realize his OPS was .738 in May don't you?

RFS62
07-09-2006, 12:24 PM
All this conspiracy stuff is cracking me up.



Did someone mention a conspiracy?


http://members.tripod.com/shamrockfc/images/clouseau.jpg

Jpup
07-09-2006, 12:24 PM
really? You realize his OPS was .738 in May don't you?

Aurilia's was .719

pedro
07-09-2006, 12:25 PM
maybe it's funny, but it obviously has some merit to it. if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

so you're theory is that Narron doesn't like EE and and Krivsky was making Narron play him but now that the Reds are playing horrible Narron is now the boss and Krivsky doesn't have a say? Ok then.

Well to me it looks like they are trying to protect a valued asset and that makes a lot more sense than all this conspiracy stuff.

pedro
07-09-2006, 12:26 PM
Aurilia's was .719

what does that have to do with anything?

reds44
07-09-2006, 12:26 PM
so you're theory is that Narron doesn't like EE and and Krivsky was making Narron play him but now that the Reds are playing horrible Narron is now the boss and Krivsky doesn't have a say? Ok then.

Well to me it looks like they are trying to protect a valued asset and that makes a lot more sense than all this conspiracy stuff.
Edwin hasn't been playing, and the Reds are playing horrible.

When Edwin got hurt we were finishing off 5 of 6 from the Cards and Astros


See a connection?

Jpup
07-09-2006, 12:27 PM
so you're theory is that Narron doesn't like EE and and Krivsky was making Narron play him but now that the Reds are playing horrible Narron is now the boss and Krivsky doesn't have a say? Ok then.

Well to me it looks like they are trying to protect a valued asset and that makes a lot more sense than all this conspiracy stuff.

how are they protecting him? hell, he played a double header in Louisville last week, but he can't play but 1 time in 4 games in Atlanta? makes no sense.

Jpup
07-09-2006, 12:28 PM
what does that have to do with anything?

you pointed out EdE's OPS in May so I thought I would let you know what Aurilia's(his replacement) was.

pedro
07-09-2006, 12:29 PM
Edwin hasn't been playing, and the Reds are playing horrible.

When Edwin got hurt we were finishing off 5 of 6 from the Cards and Astros


See a connection?

Obviously the Reds hate their fans and want to lose. I mean what else could it be?

In fact I heard Krivsky throws extra pay roll money out his car windows on the way home every night. Money that he could use for relief picthers if he didn't hate the fans so much.

Jpup
07-09-2006, 12:29 PM
Obviously the Reds hate their fans and want to lose. I mean what else could it be?

In fact I heard Krivsky throws extra pay roll money out his car windows on the way home every night. Money that he could use for relief picthers if he didn't hate the fans so much.

no, Narron is just a bumbling idiot.

reds44
07-09-2006, 12:30 PM
Obviously the Reds hate their fans and want to lose. I mean what else could it be?

In fact I heard Krivsky throws extra pay roll money out his car windows on the way home every night. Money that he could use for relief picthers if he didn't hate the fans so much.
Who said that? Nobody said Narron and Krivsky want the Reds to lose, but for some reason Narron thinks we have a better chance to win with Freel and Rich then Edwin.

Don't ask me.

pedro
07-09-2006, 12:31 PM
you pointed out EdE's OPS in May so I thought I would let you know what Aurilia's(his replacement) was.

I pointed it out b/c reds44 said EE was tearing it up before he was hurt. I was trying to prove that EE wasn't somehow magically playing himself inot the lineup over the protestations of our newest whipping boy, Jerry Narron. I don't give two flips about RA.

pedro
07-09-2006, 12:33 PM
EE will start at least 60 of the Reds remaining games at 3rd. That's my prediction.

reds44
07-09-2006, 12:33 PM
EE will start at least 60 of the Reds remaining games at 3rd. That's my prediction.
If Rich and Freel's legs fall off.

Jpup
07-09-2006, 12:35 PM
EE will start at least 60 of the Reds remaining games at 3rd. That's my prediction.

i would be very suprised.

pedro
07-09-2006, 12:36 PM
i would be very suprised.

obviously.

Jpup
07-09-2006, 12:38 PM
obviously.

you think that EdE may be trade bait? it's looking more and more like that everyday to me.

pedro
07-09-2006, 12:40 PM
you think that EdE may be trade bait? it's looking more and more like that everyday to me.

Nope. I think they are truly trying to get his ankle 100%.

They may be showcasing Freel or even Aurilia though.

Marc D
07-09-2006, 12:48 PM
Nope. I think they are truly trying to get his ankle 100%.


So they try to get his ankle 100% by playing everyday in L'ville but sitting in Cincy? I'm not buying the conspiracy theories either, but something about this just doesn't make sense.

Jpup
07-09-2006, 12:49 PM
So they try to get his ankle 100% by playing everyday in L'ville but sitting in Cincy? I'm not buying the conspiracy theories either, but something about this just doesn't make sense.

that's all I'm saying as well.

pedro
07-09-2006, 12:53 PM
So they try to get his ankle 100% by playing everyday in L'ville but sitting in Cincy? I'm not buying the conspiracy theories either, but something about this just doesn't make sense.

Hard to say. It could be that the major league medical staff didn't get a look at him until he got to cincy after the rehab. I don't know.

reds44
07-09-2006, 12:54 PM
Hard to say. It could be that the major league medical staff didn't get a look at him until he got to cincy after the rehab. I don't know.
Don't you think that should have been done before they activated him?

pedro
07-09-2006, 12:57 PM
Don't you think that should have been done before they activated him?

I think they wanted to see him play and how his ankle responded to it themselves.

The truth in this matter will come out after the all star break when we see if EE is in the lineup then. I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch because a guy that has been hurt and might still be gets a couple of extra days off before the AS break.

RANDY IN INDY
07-09-2006, 12:59 PM
I think they wanted to see him play and how his ankle responded to it themselves.

The truth in this matter will come out after the all star break when we see if EE is in the lineup then. I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch because a guy that has been hurt and might still be gets a couple of extra days off before the AS break.

:beerme:

Marc D
07-09-2006, 01:03 PM
Hard to say. It could be that the major league medical staff didn't get a look at him until he got to cincy after the rehab. I don't know.

OK, then we just had one of the most valuable commodities in our organization playing everyday in AAA when he wasn't medically able to do so. Thats negligence on someones part, AAA med staff or MLB med staff, that should be a firing offense imo. Extrapolated from there, what kind of ship is Kriv running where a player like EE can go to a medical rehab assignment and get his career tinkered with because the AAA doctor's aren't talking to the MLB doctors?

Anyway you go with this there are some serious issues raised.

reds44
07-09-2006, 01:03 PM
I think they wanted to see him play and how his ankle responded to it themselves.

The truth in this matter will come out after the all star break when we see if EE is in the lineup then. I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch because a guy that has been hurt and might still be gets a couple of extra days off before the AS break.
Honestly, I hope you are correct.

Redmachine2003
07-09-2006, 01:09 PM
Maybe the Reds are shopping RA, Hatti, and Freel. They have no value unless you play them.

pedro
07-09-2006, 01:17 PM
OK, then we just had one of the most valuable commodities in our organization playing everyday in AAA when he wasn't medically able to do so. Thats negligence on someones part, AAA med staff or MLB med staff, that should be a firing offense imo. Extrapolated from there, what kind of ship is Kriv running where a player like EE can go to a medical rehab assignment and get his career tinkered with because the AAA doctor's aren't talking to the MLB doctors?

Anyway you go with this there are some serious issues raised.

It's only negligence if he was in danger of permanantly damaging his ankle which was probably never the case.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2006, 01:29 PM
So they try to get his ankle 100% by playing everyday in L'ville but sitting in Cincy? I'm not buying the conspiracy theories either, but something about this just doesn't make sense.


No, it doesn't add up. Ockham's razor. Narron believes Aurilia's stick and D are better than EE's in "crunch time," when trying to get "momentum" built up before the All-Star break. Aurilia's stick and D weren't better 6 years ago; they aren't going to be better now.

westofyou
07-09-2006, 01:31 PM
No, it doesn't add up. Ockham's razor. Narron believes Aurilia's stick and D are better than EE's in "crunch time," when trying to get "momentum" built up before the All-Star break. Aurilia's stick and D weren't better 6 years ago; they aren't going to be better now.
But Freel started at 3rd the last 2 games and the Reds have been down on his play for the past 2 years there (they hate how he reads the ball before throwing) so Ockham's Razor pretty much would point to another theory.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2006, 01:34 PM
But Freel started at 3rd the last 2 games and the Reds have been down on his play for the past 2 years there (they hate how he reads the ball before throwing) so Ockham's Razor pretty much would point to another theory.

Nope. All that points to is that the Reds like ANYBODY but EE playing defense.

Narron plays extreme "hot hand" managing.

westofyou
07-09-2006, 01:37 PM
Nope. All that points to is that the Reds like ANYBODY but EE playing defense.

Narron plays extreme "hot hand" managing.
Oh.. Ok guess that ends that.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2006, 01:44 PM
Oh.. Ok guess that ends that.

No offense. But unless you've got a better explanation that provides evidence (oh, say, a press clipping quoting Narron saying, "Eddie's ankle was a little tender" or something) or some other bit of evidence, the most logical conclusion to reach is that Narron prefers, for whatever reason, the play of Aurilia and/or Freel at third over the play of Encarnacion.

When new evidence presents itself, then the theory should change.

dougdirt
07-09-2006, 01:48 PM
Anyone want to start www.firejerrynarron.com with me?

westofyou
07-09-2006, 01:59 PM
No offense. But unless you've got a better explanation that provides evidence (oh, say, a press clipping quoting Narron saying, "Eddie's ankle was a little tender" or something) or some other bit of evidence, the most logical conclusion to reach is that Narron prefers, for whatever reason, the play of Aurilia and/or Freel at third over the play of Encarnacion.

When new evidence presents itself, then the theory should change.



Encarnacion pedaled an exercise bike in the pre-game clubhouse, "Something I'll do for the next four weeks before games, along with icing my ankle after every game, just to keep it strong," he said. "I was out a month didn't think it would take that long but it feels real strong and I played seven games in a row (on rehab) for Louisville with no problems."

http://www.oxfordpress.com/news/content/shared/sports/stories/BBN_REDS_0707_COX.html

Sounds to me like it's still a work in progress.

A couple more days rest plus the AS game gives him an extra week almost.

A severe sprain is a hard nut to crack, some say it's worse then a broken ankle.

I've broke my ankle, if it's worse then that he's experiencing pain and weakness.

reds44
07-09-2006, 02:02 PM
http://www.oxfordpress.com/news/content/shared/sports/stories/BBN_REDS_0707_COX.html

Sounds to me like it's still a work in progress.

A couple more days rest plus the AS game gives him an extra week almost.

A severe sprain is a hard nut to crack, some say it's worse then a broken ankle.

I've broke my ankle, if it's worse then that he's experiencing pain and weakness.
I 'midly' sprained mine last year, and I didn't feel 100% for 2 months.

Ltlabner
07-09-2006, 02:08 PM
No offense. But unless you've got a better explanation that provides evidence (oh, say, a press clipping quoting Narron saying, "Eddie's ankle was a little tender" or something) or some other bit of evidence, the most logical conclusion to reach is that Narron prefers, for whatever reason, the play of Aurilia and/or Freel at third over the play of Encarnacion.


Oh I see...so your theory is correct until somone else can disprove it, beyond a doubt with no speculation or guesswork? But we are to accept your theroy, based on speculation and guesswork, as the "obvious truth". Don't think so...prove your theory on more than speculation and guesswork. It's your theory, you support it. It's not "correct" because someone else hasn't torn it apart to your satisfaction.

For the billonth time we can only speculate what is going on in the clubhouse and front office. Sure we can look at what we see on the field but that is one thousanth of the total story that is going on behind the sceens.

I don't purport to know exactly what is going on, but my point is that no one else does either. Now, if we come back from the AS break and EE is suddenly losing time for non medical related isses, and we find Castro/RA in the line up regularly I'll join right in the crowd calling "foul".

Falls City Beer
07-09-2006, 02:14 PM
Oh I see...so your theory is correct until somone else can disprove it, beyond a doubt with no speculation or guesswork? But we are to accept your theroy, based on speculation and guesswork, as the "obvious truth". Don't think so...prove your theory on more than speculation and guesswork. It's your theory, you support it. It's not "correct" because someone else hasn't torn it apart to your satisfaction.

For the billonth time we can only speculate what is going on in the clubhouse and front office. Sure we can look at what we see on the field but that is one thousanth of the total story that is going on behind the sceens.

I don't purport to know exactly what is going on, but my point is that no one else does either. Now, if we come back from the AS break and EE is suddenly losing time for non medical related isses, and we find Castro/RA in the line up regularly I'll join right in the crowd calling "foul".

Not at all. This has nothing to do with "me." This is simply how Ockham's razor works: until different evidence presents itself, go with the simplest and most direct explanation for an event: in this case, the commonest explanation for EE's absence is that others are "outplaying" him. That's the rational explanation for the presence of one player and the absence of another in the lineup--in 99.9% of the cases, that's the case.

However, woy presented compelling evidence. So I'd have to say, the picture and theory of "the hurt ankle" carries much more weight. I hadn't seen the article until woy posted it.

RFS62
07-09-2006, 02:45 PM
So, it would appear that Ockham is using one of those new four blade razors.

KronoRed
07-09-2006, 04:01 PM
The hills are plotting againest us

Time to take up arms.

deltachi8
07-09-2006, 04:06 PM
While it still seems strange, I think it was just an easy roster move to make to let Ramirez get a start during the break and have a bat to pinch hit if need be.

Id like to read more into it because, well, its more fun that way, but I just cant at this time.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2006, 05:14 PM
While it still seems strange, I think it was just an easy roster move to make to let Ramirez get a start during the break and have a bat to pinch hit if need be.

Id like to read more into it because, well, its more fun that way, but I just cant at this time.


I doubt it. That's incredibly convoluted.

They brought up Edwin, and it sounds like he's not 100%; hence, he rides the pine.

But I don't doubt for a minute that Jerry prefers Rich in the lineup over both Freel and EE. However,that's just speculation based on two years of Narron's comments in press clippings.

Heath
07-09-2006, 05:17 PM
And on top of that, I swear I heard Grande talk about a contract extension for Rich Aurilia. Seriously.

KronoRed
07-09-2006, 05:18 PM
And on top of that, I swear I heard Grande talk about a contract extension for Rich Aurilia. Seriously.
I hope you're joking :eek:

I thought the deal they gave him last year includes a mutual option for next season?

OnBaseMachine
07-09-2006, 06:56 PM
Notes: Encarnacion sits
Sunday marks third straight day on bench after big error
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

ATLANTA -- Sunday marked Reds third baseman Edwin Encarnacion's fourth game back from the disabled list. He's sat for the last three of those games.
Ryan Freel started the previous two games at third base and Rich Aurilia started there on Sunday.

In Encarnacion's return on Thursday after missing 25 games with a sprained left ankle, he committed an eighth-inning throwing error. That gave him 15 errors this season, most among Major League third basemen. It also led to an unearned run scoring, which proved to be the difference in a 10-inning loss to Atlanta.

Reds manager Jerry Narron has offered no explanation for Encarnacion's benching.

"I don't know. It surprises me, because it's never happened before," Encarnacion said. "But there's nothing I can do, you know? I have to keep working and keep playing hard. If [Narron] gives me an opportunity again, I'll try to do my best and keep playing every day."

Encarnacion was batting .268 with six home runs and 36 RBIs this season. He's also been having a tough time personally. He plans to spend the All-Star break at home in the Dominican Republic to be with his aunt, who is apparently ailing and near death.

Ross update: Injured catcher David Ross was examined on Sunday by Dr. Joann Lohr in Cincinnati. After seeing the results of Ross' MRI exam taken on Saturday, Lohr confirmed the original diagnosis of a lower abdominal strain and prescribed rest.

Ross, who came out of Friday's game in the second inning, will be examined again on Thursday.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060709&content_id=1548468&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

reds44
07-09-2006, 07:09 PM
He better be playing after the break everyday. For him not even to tell Edwin why he is benched is stupid. Communicate with your players.

Jpup
07-09-2006, 07:13 PM
Reds manager Jerry Narron has offered no explanation for Encarnacion's benching.

that says it all. :explode:

Heath
07-09-2006, 08:37 PM
Picture of Stonefaced Narron -

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/07/46/49/image_1849467.jpg

KronoRed
07-09-2006, 08:45 PM
Picture of Stonefaced Narron -

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/07/46/49/image_1849467.jpg
"You mean Edwin can play 3rd base?"

RedLegSuperStar
07-09-2006, 08:53 PM
The line-up should be:

Brandon Phillips
Felipe Lopez
Adam Dunn
Ken Griffey Jr
Austin Kearns
Edwin Encarnacion
Scott Hatteberg
Ross/LaRue/Valentine(In that order if healthy)
P

Sorry but Aurilia, Wise, Freel(Soon to be Chris Denorfia), and whatever catcher isn't starting are better suited for back ups and subs.

MrCinatit
07-09-2006, 08:53 PM
Another reason why I think Narron is qualified only to manage a second-rate team. Even with first-rate talent, he will mismanage it.
This is absolutely a terrible way to deal with the kid's problems - to sit him, without saying a word is like playing kickball with EE's ego.

Redsland
07-09-2006, 08:55 PM
A severe sprain is a hard nut to crack, some say it's worse then a broken ankle.
That's what my orthopaedist said when I severely sprained mine.

It was two months before I could run a short spurt, six months before I could cut on it, and more than a year before I could run a mile or so.

Years later, it's still never let me run as far or as fast as I used to.

An ankle sprain is a serious injury for an athlete.

alloverjr
07-09-2006, 09:20 PM
Reds manager Jerry Narron has offered no explanation for Encarnacion's benching.

"I don't know. It surprises me, because it's never happened before," Encarnacion said. "But there's nothing I can do, you know? I have to keep working and keep playing hard. If [Narron] gives me an opportunity again, I'll try to do my best and keep playing every day."

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060709&content_id=1548468&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Doesn't appear that the ankle has anything to do with it. I hope Wayne trades EE and Lopez over the break so Rich and Juan won't have to worry about their starting job. I was never in the Narron conspiracy camp, but this is slightly puzzling, and silly.

MartyFan
07-09-2006, 09:21 PM
Another reason why I think Narron is qualified only to manage a second-rate team. Even with first-rate talent, he will mismanage it.
This is absolutely a terrible way to deal with the kid's problems - to sit him, without saying a word is like playing kickball with EE's ego.

Problem is he doesn't have a team of "first-rate talent". In reality Narron has a team that was projected to finish in DEAD LAST in the NL Central and has motivated this team to over-perform to this point. Now the team is simply settling back into reality.

Is that reality last place? I don't think so but I believe it will be firmly in the middle of the bottom three between Chicago and Pittsburgh by the years end.

This is not a knock on the team or on the management or ownership...this is the hand they were dealt and they ahve done BETTER than GREAT with it thus far...I think next year or the year after is the year we are really going to see a SOLID (think Cardinals) team and organization in Cincinnati.

flyer85
07-09-2006, 09:24 PM
Need to send EE back down to AAA and learn how to throw. People don't seem to remember all the errors Larkin made at SS early in his career.

KronoRed
07-09-2006, 09:28 PM
People don't seem to remember all the errors Larkin made at SS early in his career.
I bet those are different cause he was hustling or some other buzz word ;)

flyer85
07-09-2006, 09:34 PM
Notes: Encarnacion sits
Sunday marks third straight day on bench after big error
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com


Reds manager Jerry Narron has offered no explanation for Encarnacion's benching.
because he knows whatever answer he could come up with would probably sound incredibly stupid. You know what they say about "better to be thought a fool ..."

membengal
07-09-2006, 09:35 PM
People don't seem to remember all the errors Larkin made at SS early in his career.

No, they sure don't. Also, no appreciation for just how many errors other young 3b have made historically in their first few years of playing...

For instance, David Wright, 23-year-old uber stud for the Mets, had 24 errors in 2005, and a .948 fielding percentage. Just sayin'...

4256 Hits
07-09-2006, 09:52 PM
Problem is he doesn't have a team of "first-rate talent".

He has 1st rate offensive talent and that is what is being dicussed here. No one will ever claim that he has 1st class talent to work w/ as far as the pitching staff is concerned.

To me Narron setting of his starting line-ups is a complete joke! Not playing EdE is a injusties(sp?) to EdE talents and future.

Johnny Vander m
07-09-2006, 10:10 PM
Please someone tell me why EE can't learn to throw down at AAA.

flyer85
07-09-2006, 10:14 PM
Please someone tell me why EE can't learn to throw down at AAA.because he helps this team win in the majors ... and he will only get better.

membengal
07-09-2006, 11:11 PM
Hey Johnny, should David Wright learn to throw and field at AAA too?

MartyFan
07-09-2006, 11:20 PM
He has 1st rate offensive talent and that is what is being dicussed here. No one will ever claim that he has 1st class talent to work w/ as far as the pitching staff is concerned.

To me Narron setting of his starting line-ups is a complete joke! Not playing EdE is a injusties(sp?) to EdE talents and future.

And what about the Defense of this first-rate offense?

It all goes hand in hand.

membengal
07-09-2006, 11:27 PM
Hey MartyFan, same query re: David Wright. If you were a Mets fan in 2005, I would assume you would have been begging to send him to AAA for more defensive seasoning? Or some extensive pine time to "sit and think about his mistakes"?

Johnny Vander m
07-09-2006, 11:31 PM
Hey Johnny, should David Wright learn to throw and field at AAA too?


What's David Wright got to do with this?

Johnny Vander m
07-09-2006, 11:43 PM
Hey Johnny, should David Wright learn to throw and field at AAA too?


Hey my neighbor just north of me, read post #26 by Jimbo on Redslive on the thread titled 'Freel set to have Mri. This may explain why EE needs to finish out this year at AAA.

membengal
07-09-2006, 11:53 PM
It doesn't answer my question.

My last post on page seven noted that David Wright, the 23-year-old wunderkind thirdbaseman of the Mets, had a healthy 24 errors in 2005, for a .948 fielding percentage. Not good. By any stretch. My point is, with a potential talent at 3b like EE (although he is certainly not in Wright's league, he is is a pretty solid league of his own), you live with the errors as a part of his growing pains. Far preferable than wasting at-bats on re-treads and has-beens like Aurilia. That's why I am mentioning Wright.

Johnny Vander m
07-10-2006, 12:02 AM
It doesn't answer my question.

My last post on page seven noted that David Wright, the 23-year-old wunderkind thirdbaseman of the Mets, had a healthy 24 errors in 2005, for a .948 fielding percentage. Not good. By any stretch. My point is, with a potential talent at 3b like EE (although he is certainly not in Wright's league, he is is a pretty solid league of his own), you live with the errors as a part of his growing pains. Far preferable than wasting at-bats on re-treads and has-beens like Aurilia. That's why I am mentioning Wright.


But he, EE makes a lot of mental errors and you know that. I just don't think he is mentally ready for the big show yet.
We just may have to have a drink at Willie Moffets (is that still there?) and settle this.:beerme: :laugh: Hey I used to live in Bartlett.

reds44
07-10-2006, 12:02 AM
But he, EE makes a lot of mental errors and you know that. I just don't think he is mentally ready for the big show yet.
We just may have to have a drink at Willie Moffets (is that still there?) and settle this.:beerme: :laugh: Hey I used to live in Bartlett.
He has made mental errors? When? The only kind of errors I have seen him make are with his arm.

Johnny Vander m
07-10-2006, 12:18 AM
He has made mental errors? When? The only kind of errors I have seen him make are with his arm.

Hey I thought you went on vacation from this board for a few days. Back so soon? :laugh:
Ok, one was that I mentioned the other day, either the first or second game of the season, a ball in play rolled off of him into foul terr't, and he just walked over very lazy and picked it up while the runner took second base. You don't remember that? Of course not, you are too star struck.

And just the other night, think it was the first game with the Braves, (head kinda foggy now) when a home run was hit by the Braves and I can't remember who it was now NEVER touched third base, replays showed that over and over, and it is up to the 3rd basemad to call that to the umpire. But EE either didn't see it or know that he should call it. I am so surprised no one else has ever bought that up.

Face it dude, the kid is in another world. His mental state is worse than his wild arm.
Have a nice vacation when you go,;) and maybe your kin will still be with the big club.:)

westofyou
07-10-2006, 12:21 AM
I am so surprised no one else has ever bought that up.

Me too.....


His mental state is worse than his wild arm.
Thanks for the diagnosis.

reds44
07-10-2006, 12:38 AM
Hey I thought you went on vacation from this board for a few days. Back so soon? :laugh:
Ok, one was that I mentioned the other day, either the first or second game of the season, a ball in play rolled off of him into foul terr't, and he just walked over very lazy and picked it up while the runner took second base. You don't remember that? Of course not, you are too star struck.

And just the other night, think it was the first game with the Braves, (head kinda foggy now) when a home run was hit by the Braves and I can't remember who it was now NEVER touched third base, replays showed that over and over, and it is up to the 3rd basemad to call that to the umpire. But EE either didn't see it or know that he should call it. I am so surprised no one else has ever bought that up.

Face it dude, the kid is in another world. His mental state is worse than his wild arm.
Have a nice vacation when you go,;) and maybe your kin will still be with the big club.:)
That was the Cubs game at Wrigley. I was at that game. It was his third error of the game. He wasn't being lazy, it was ovbious he was frusterated and that is why it took him some time. That being said, he should have got to it quicker.

I think you are talking about Chipper Jones on the walkoff single because many people thought the same thing. I went and re-watched it on mlb.tv, and he clearly touched 3rd.

I'm a 16 year old white kid from Illinois; I am in no way even being close to related to Edwin.

Heath
07-10-2006, 08:41 AM
just to add more fuel to the fire...for EdE...from McCoy's Notebook this morning...


Too many E's in Edwin

For the third straight game, third baseman Edwin Encarnacion was not in the starting lineup. He was on the disabled list for nearly a month with a sprained left ankle and returned Thursday in the starting lineup.

He made a careless throwing error to open the eighth and that run scored, an important run in the 8-7 10-inning defeat.

Afterward, manager Jerry Narron made it a point to say how crucial that error was in the grand scope of the game. Encarnacion hasn't played since, and it probably is not a coincidence.

Asked before Sunday's game if Encarnacion was OK, Narron said, "Yes, and Ryan Freel is, too. Freel played well (Thursday night)."

Playing third base, Freel was 3-for-4 with a walk, so he played Saturday and was 0-for-4 with three strikeouts.

Did he play third Sunday?

No, he played center field. But Encarnacion still didn't play. Rich Aurilia was at third.


http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/071006redsnotesweb.html


I feel like EdE's being treated like a puppy's who's been wetting on the carpet.

Hey Jerry, those vets you are so much in love with, they were youngsters once too, you know.

MrCinatit
07-10-2006, 08:54 AM
just to add more fuel to the fire...for EdE...from McCoy's Notebook this morning...
http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/071006redsnotesweb.html
I feel like EdE's being treated like a puppy's who's been wetting on the carpet.
Hey Jerry, those vets you are so much in love with, they were youngsters once too, you know.

So, when a kid learning his craft messes up, it is a good idea to
a) ignore him
b) let him rot on the bench...and not tell him why he is rotting on the bench, and
c) tell the press why the kid is rotting on the bench.
Meanwhile, when one of our seasoned vets consistently fails to produce in run-scoring opportunities or stinks up the pitching mound, we continue to run them out there until our GM steps in and DFA's them.
Yeah. Good call.
Once again: This team will never truly succeed with Jerry Narron at the helm.

BuckU
07-10-2006, 09:07 AM
b) let him rot on the bench...and not tell him why he is rotting on the bench,

He should know why he was on the bench...

Basically, Narron is sacrificing some offense for the better defense, why is that so bad?

Jpup
07-10-2006, 09:18 AM
He should know why he was on the bench...

Basically, Narron is sacrificing some offense for the better defense, why is that so bad?

because Edwin is probably the best player available for 3rd base.

registerthis
07-10-2006, 09:25 AM
that says it all. :explode:

If the Reds were winning, Narron's "No comment" would be read as a sign that he's protecting E_E and doesn't want to rush him back.

The Reds, however, are losing, so Narron and Krivsky have instead somehow hatched a plan to keep E_E out the lineup in an effort to continue the Reds' tailspin and anger the fans.

The only thing :explode: in this thread are the eruptions of hyperbole springing forth from certain posters. Oy.

Kc61
07-10-2006, 09:33 AM
It doesn't answer my question.

My last post on page seven noted that David Wright, the 23-year-old wunderkind thirdbaseman of the Mets, had a healthy 24 errors in 2005, for a .948 fielding percentage. Not good. By any stretch. My point is, with a potential talent at 3b like EE (although he is certainly not in Wright's league, he is is a pretty solid league of his own), you live with the errors as a part of his growing pains. Far preferable than wasting at-bats on re-treads and has-beens like Aurilia. That's why I am mentioning Wright.

If EE had a .948 like Wright had, he might play more. He has an .890. He has 15 errors in 51 games, about one third of a season. Over a full season, that would result in 45 errors as compared to Wright's 24 last year. Almost double.

At some point, an infielder's defense can be so bad that he simply can't play every day. Apparently the Reds think .890 is that bad.

Ltlabner
07-10-2006, 09:39 AM
b) let him rot on the bench...and not tell him why he is rotting on the bench

Could it be that EE is supposed to put 2 and 2 together on his own? That he' hasn't already put 2 and 2 together as to why he is sitting is a little odd.

I like EE and think he's the 3b of the future, but this sudden notion that all the Reds need to do to launch into first is play EE everyday is silly. He's a good player with the possibility of being a great player, if he can overcome his defensive problems. But this idea that he's suddenly the 2nd comming and savior of our team is nuts. And no...nobody has explicitily said "he's the 2nd comming" or "he's our savior" but the length of this thread, and that the EE topic has invaded other threads implies that's how some view him.

membengal
07-10-2006, 09:43 AM
KC61--- that's where we disagree. One, you grit your teeth and work through the errors because the payoff is potentially so high. Two, you show some organizational awareness of the fact that these kind of defensive struggles ARE a part of the growing process for certain young players, and relax the player working through it, NOT do this passive aggresive stuff that Narron is on.

In my opinion, they are mishandling EE at this point, but then again, I suspected they would from the outset this year. The only thing which kept Narron from this was how white hot EE was to start the season. With the injury and mothball time in between that and now, Narron gets to go back to that which he loves...medicore-at-best vets who remind him of himself as a player.

Ltl---I am certainly not saying he is a savior. What I AM saying is that the Reds have no business in any manner wasting time this year hindering EE's development. Either he can play 3b full time in the bigs or he cannot. To find out, he has to play and play every day (or at least 6 out of 7 days). If he does, I don't think he hurts this clubs chances of winning. In fact, I think he enhances them. But even if some of you are right and his defense if SO bad that it hurts this club, well, they are not going anywhere anyway, so it doesn't really matter in the long run.

Bottom line, he has to play and play and play. Anything short of that is, again, professional malpractice on the part of Narron and whoever is permitting Narron to do this.

Ltlabner
07-10-2006, 09:51 AM
And that's where we disagree. One, you grit your teeth and work through the errors because the payoff is potentially so high.

And I agree with this also. As I have posted elsewhere, if EE continues to sit for reasons other than health issues after the ASB I will join in the chorus of "boos". If Narron is truely benching EE for a "pushisment" or to make a point 3 days before the ASB I have no problem with that. But yes, I agree that EE needs to play through his problems and either figure it out or not.

My only complaint has been and continues to be the wacky conspiricy theroys and totally unsubstanted claims that have been made as to why EE hasn't been played. I don't know how many different ways to say this.

Kc61
07-10-2006, 09:56 AM
Membengal -- I agree if the team is not in contention. The Reds soon may not be and then I say play EE every inning. But if a team is contending (even in the weak NL with a .500 record) and is pitching-challenged it is hard to play a guy who constantly makes throwing errors and has an .890.

My guess is that behind the scenes they are working with EE on his throwing. One improvement I see is that he now seems to pause to set himself before throwing. This is good. He still tends to throw sidearm, which probably can be corrected for most plays. I just think fans need to be more patient about this.

M2
07-10-2006, 09:58 AM
Could it be that EE is supposed to put 2 and 2 together on his own? That he' hasn't already put 2 and 2 together as to why he is sitting is a little odd.

I like EE and think he's the 3b of the future, but this sudden notion that all the Reds need to do to launch into first is play EE everyday is silly. He's a good player with the possibility of being a great player, if he can overcome his defensive problems. But this idea that he's suddenly the 2nd comming and savior of our team is nuts. And no...nobody has explicitily said "he's the 2nd comming" or "he's our savior" but the length of this thread, and that the EE topic has invaded other threads implies that's how some view him.

I think it's more a case of people like the kid and want to see him play because he generally makes the team better when he's out there. Of course he's not the team's savior. First off, he can't pitch and no matter how much he might help in other departments that's the team's Achilles Heel.

As for Edwin connecting the dots himself, I'm guessing the first person who'd tell you Edwin should put extra work into his defense is Edwin. From what I understand, he does put in that work. It can take a few years for a young player to fully curb his fielding errors. Rich Aurilia had a 28-error season at SS at age 27, his first full season with a SS job.

I'd hope the Reds' management recognizes that seemingly the only way a player gets over this hump is by playing through it. To me the overriding question should be: Does the kid have the skills to improve on defense? Unquestionably Encarnacion does. He's got the work ethic to do it as well. What the Reds need to do is not quibble with have a good young player who's not quite yet a great young player. Time + coaching should get him there.

membengal
07-10-2006, 09:59 AM
Kc61---I will be plenty patient, as long as he is in the lineup. In the meantime, since he has not been, I am a bit grumpy. Again, we disagree over his value now. You think he is affirmitively hurting the team and its chances of winning with his defense. I don't. But even if he was, you play him anyway. Finding out about EE and his future place on this team should be one of the goals of 2006---as opposed to finding at-bats for vets.

M2---dead on, as usual.

Ltlabner
07-10-2006, 10:03 AM
As for Edwin connecting the dots himself, I'm guessing the first person who'd tell you Edwin should put extra work into his defense is Edwin. From what I understand, he does put in that work. It can take a few years for a young player to fully curb his fielding errors. Rich Aurilia had a 28-error season at SS at age 27, his first full season with a SS job.

And this is where I am in total agreement with you, membengal, reds44, etc. I'd rather see a healthy EE written in ink at 3B. The kid needs to know it's his position and the Reds believe he's the 3B of the future. I don't think the "scrappy vets" are the root of all evil as some here do, but I don't think they should be taking valuable playing time away from kids who could develop into something really special.

BuckU
07-10-2006, 11:23 AM
I'm in Kc61's camp on this. With this poor of pitching you simply can't have a defensive liability out there costing anymore runs. As great a bat as EE has, it's moot becuase of the shoddy D.

If (and hopefully not) when the Reds fall out of contention, let him work it out up here. While the team continues to be in the thick of things you have to take the lesser of the two evils.

Everybody wants to blam Narron for this, hell, blame the pitching staff. They are the ones that have made the margin for error so slim.

KronoRed
07-10-2006, 02:54 PM
If they won't play him then they should deal him off, let us all get a good giggle out of giving up on a 23 year old 3rd baseman at least ;)

Guacarock
07-10-2006, 04:14 PM
The Reds are 1-8 for the month of July. That follows a second half of June that wasn't as putrid, but still well below expectations considering the caliber of our opponents and the performance of the Reds in April and May.

None of this tailspin can be blamed on EE's defense. He was on the DL most of the time, and now riding the bench.

Frankly, I think we miss his offense more than we have to fear his defense. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that his absence isn't the reason we stink. Regardless of whether there are other or greater root causes for it, the fact of the matter is, we still stink to high heaven.

After our 1-8 slide going into the ASG break, we hardly look like a team poised for a pennant drive. We are falling apart at the seams, more closely resembling a team on a wipeout course.

Narron's a putz to be scapegoating EE for this downturn, especially considering EE has been nowhere near the playing field all the while the travesty has been occurring.

Personally, I'd like to see EE manning 3B more or less everyday. He's not going to improve his defense without the opportunities. And we certainly aren't going anywhere without him. We might not go anywhere with him, either, but how much worse can we get?

pedro
07-10-2006, 04:16 PM
Personally I believe EE's range compensates for the difference in "sure handedness"between himself and guys like Aurilia and Castro.

HotCorner
07-10-2006, 04:28 PM
Odd that Aramis Ramirez's defensive career started similarly to EE. He committed 25 errors in a season when he was 21. Followed that up with 19, 33, 10 and 16. As he's gotten more experience, he's gotten a lot better as a defensive player. EE simply needs more experience. He's got the talent.

Maybe the Reds lack the coaching on the big league level to help young guys like EE, Felipe and Dunn improve their defense.

BuckU
07-10-2006, 04:32 PM
Odd that Aramis Ramirez's defensive career started similarly to EE. He committed 25 errors in a season when he was 21. Followed that up with 19, 33, 10 and 16. As he's gotten more experience, he's gotten a lot better as a defensive player. EE simply needs more experience. He's got the talent.



And the Pirates were horrible in those years so they could afford to let him play through it. It's now or not any time soon for this team.

pedro
07-10-2006, 04:34 PM
And the Pirates were horrible in those years so they could afford to let him play through it. It's now or not any time soon for this team.

I still have a hard time believing the Reds are better with Aurilia or Freel playing everyday at 3B. And Castro? He should NEVER start there.

reds44
07-10-2006, 04:35 PM
And the Pirates were horrible in those years so they could afford to let him play through it. It's now or not any time soon for this team.
It is?

Your starting LF, RF, 3B, SS, and 2nd baseman are all in there mid to early 20's. Arroyo, Harang, and Ramirez aren't going anywhere.

Even if you want to say now or never, Edwin is the best option to win now at 3rd base.

westofyou
07-10-2006, 04:35 PM
And the Pirates were horrible in those years so they could afford to let him play through it. It's now or not any time soon for this team.
This team ain't going anywhere, it's going to happen next year or the year after with this group.

Rich Aurilia at 3rd is not the answer to a championship Reds team by any stretch of the imagination.

Ltlabner
07-10-2006, 04:36 PM
Maybe the Reds lack the coaching on the big league level to help young guys like EE, Felipe and Dunn improve their defense.

This is a very interesting point as Narron preaches defense ad nausem yet nothing seems to improve. It may be that the coaching staff just isn't dealing with the mechanics and helping them adjust. Who would be responsible for that? They don't really have an "infield" coach...does that mean it falls under the unbrella of the 1st or 3rd base coaches?

Also, the never ending lineups and constant shuffling of playing time has to have an impact on some level. If you screw up you're uptight that you'll be benched. If you do well...who cares as you'll likely be benched anyway.

westofyou
07-10-2006, 04:37 PM
Maybe the Reds lack the coaching on the big league level to help young guys like EE, Felipe and Dunn improve their defense.

Maybe Castro is part of that solution?

RedsBaron
07-10-2006, 04:41 PM
This team ain't going anywhere, it's going to happen next year or the year after with this group.

Rich Aurilia at 3rd is not the answer to a championship Reds team by any stretch of the imagination.
Yep. Jerry Narron seems like a nice guy. Dave Miley seemed like a nice guy. Bob Boone is reportedly a nice guy. I wish them all well. A nice guy and a good manager is not necessarily the same thing-it was the same thing in Sparky Anderson's case, but not always.
Why do the Reds seem to come up with one manager after the other who prefers to play old veterans who will never bring this team to the postseason rather than build a team around young talent that possibly could be part of a winner?
Mind you, I believe that Narron is a better manager than Boone or Miley, but that is faint praise indeed.

Ltlabner
07-10-2006, 04:42 PM
Billy Hatcher was named first base coach on Feb. 19, 2006. He will also will work with the outfielders and as the teams baserunning instructor.

From Reds.com. Interestingly there is no one specifically named to be responsible for working with the infield, being an infield coach, etc.

pedro
07-10-2006, 04:43 PM
From Reds.com. Interestingly there is no one specifically named to be responsible for working with the infield, being an infield coach, etc.


I thought that was Bucky Dent's job?

(although I know he is also the bench coach)

westofyou
07-10-2006, 04:46 PM
Why do the Reds seem to come up with one manager after the other who prefers to play old veterans who will never bring this team to the postseason rather than build a team around young talent that possibly could be part of a winner?Because they either played for Gene Mauch or were 2nd rate catchers is my summation. Everyone gets ab's on a Mauch team, everyone complains about it too.

Ltlabner
07-10-2006, 04:46 PM
I thought that was Bucky Dent's job?

Is working with the infield normally part of the bench coach's duties (I really don't know)? They didn't say much on reds.com about his duties other than being bench coach.

I'm sure somebody is responsible for it....or at least I hope so....:dunno:

Kc61
07-10-2006, 04:48 PM
[QUOTE=Guacarock]The Reds are 1-8 for the month of July. That follows a second half of June that wasn't as putrid, but still well below expectations considering the caliber of our opponents and the performance of the Reds in April and May.

None of this tailspin can be blamed on EE's defense. He was on the DL most of the time, and now riding the bench.

Frankly, I think we miss his offense more than we have to fear his defense.[QUOTE]

I don't think the Reds miss his offense. They lead the NL in OPS, first in homers, third in runs. I think EE can be a real good hitter; he has a real quick bat. But his absence from the lineup does not present a critical offensive problem for this team.

In the last 10 games the team ERA is 6.69 with 70 runs allowed. 70. This is a critical problem.

You can debate the right approach to handling EE and getting him to play up to his potential. Reasonable minds can differ on this. But, as always, the real issue for this team -- and the reason they are losing -- is on the mound.

reds44
07-10-2006, 05:21 PM
[QUOTE=Guacarock]The Reds are 1-8 for the month of July. That follows a second half of June that wasn't as putrid, but still well below expectations considering the caliber of our opponents and the performance of the Reds in April and May.

None of this tailspin can be blamed on EE's defense. He was on the DL most of the time, and now riding the bench.

Frankly, I think we miss his offense more than we have to fear his defense.[QUOTE]

I don't think the Reds miss his offense. They lead the NL in OPS, first in homers, third in runs. I think EE can be a real good hitter; he has a real quick bat. But his absence from the lineup does not present a critical offensive problem for this team.

In the last 10 games the team ERA is 6.69 with 70 runs allowed. 70. This is a critical problem.

You can debate the right approach to handling EE and getting him to play up to his potential. Reasonable minds can differ on this. But, as always, the real issue for this team -- and the reason they are losing -- is on the mound.
We averaged 1 run less per game when he was on the DL compared to before he went on it.

We miss his offense.

Ravenlord
07-10-2006, 05:40 PM
Is working with the infield normally part of the bench coach's duties (I really don't know)? They didn't say much on reds.com about his duties other than being bench coach.

I'm sure somebody is responsible for it....or at least I hope so....:dunno:
Dent is also the infield coach. i believe Bill Hatcher also serves as the outfield coach and Mike Stefanski as the catchers coach.

Patrick Bateman
07-10-2006, 06:00 PM
We averaged 1 run less per game when he was on the DL compared to before he went on it.

We miss his offense

EE's production will not gain us 1 run per game. I'm guessing the other players simply haven't hit as well since he went on the DL. EE will certainly help since it takes guys like Aurillia and Castro out of the line-ups on some nights, but EE simply is not going to be the difference of a full run per game.

Kc61
07-10-2006, 06:04 PM
EE's production will not gain us 1 run per game. I'm guessing the other players simply haven't hit as well since he went on the DL. EE will certainly help since it takes guys like Aurillia and Castro out of the line-ups on some nights, but EE simply is not going to be the difference of a full run per game.

Rough calculation, before EE went on DL Reds scored about .75 more runs than after (giving EE credit for the 8-7 loss in Atlanta this week, in which he played). I agree this is due to a combination of factors, not just EE.

Look at the pitching numbers. It is getting like last year. The Reds lost the last 4 Arroyo/Harang games.

Marc D
07-10-2006, 06:23 PM
Someone just look up EE's RC vs his replacements. I don't have the data or I would do it.

Ravenlord
07-10-2006, 07:24 PM
Someone just look up EE's RC vs his replacements. I don't have the data or I would do it.


As 3B
Player AB RC
Encarnacion 187 29.95
Aurilia 111 15.39
Freel 40 17.12
Castro 14 2.5

Total 352 64.96
Replacements 165 35.01

reds44
07-10-2006, 07:29 PM
As 3B
Player AB RC
Encarnacion 187 29.95
Aurilia 111 15.39
Freel 40 17.12
Castro 14 2.5

Total 352 64.96
Replacements 165 35.01

Heh.

It's no contest.

Patrick Bateman
07-10-2006, 08:11 PM
Heh.

It's no contest.

Encarnacion is clearly our best 3rd baseman, but he still doesn't add a full run of improvement over the other guys.

Here's a comparison of EE with Aurillia using Ravenlord's numbers:

EE creates a total of 0.160 runs per at bat, while Aurillia creates 0.138 runs per at bat.

Say there's an average of 5 at-bats per game for our 3rd basemen. EE would create 0.80 runs per game, and Aurillia creates 0.69 runs per game. That's a 0.11 RPG difference, meaning about EE is worth about an extra run every 9 games.

EE will help our offense, but he certainly wont make such a difference that he will add a full run per game. The rest of the team will have to hit better for that to happen.

GAC
07-10-2006, 08:27 PM
He has made mental errors? When? The only kind of errors I have seen him make are with his arm.

The kid is still learning the position, and IMO, people need to expect the errors during that process.

But respectfully, to say that one only makes mistakes (errors) with the physical part of the body, and that it is void of the emotional (mental) is misguided thinking.

To KNOW what to do (or not do) with the ball BEFORE one commits to throw or attempt to execute a play is a big part of the game. And that involves the thinking process. One sees it every day in baseball.

As Kenny says.... "Know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em."

And as far as this "veteran presence" thing goes....

I think people have taken a statement by Narron earlier in the season - and I think it's fine to have FUN or make humor with it - but I think it has gotten blown way out of proportion on this forum.

Especially in the case of Aurilia. At no time, prior to EE going on the DL, did Narron defer or show any doubts towards EE playing 3B and give playing time at 3B to Aurilia. Aurilia was platooning 1B with Hatteberg an overwhelming majority of the time. And they are doing a good job there to IMO.

I remember (as we all do) that one game earlier in the season where EE had 3-4 errors at 3B (which did cost us the game). And it did involve bonehead mental mistakes we all were screaming over. And the next game EE's butt was on the bench, and I'm not sure whether it was RA or Freel who was playing 3B. And Narron came out and said that he wanted EE to sit and watch, and THINK about some of the mental mistakes he made that lead to disasterous throws.

He was then right back in there.

The only only other situation involved Womack earlier in the season splitting time at 2B with Freel. And BP solved that problem. A far superior INFer then either.

Castro has been on this team approximately two weeks - and that was Krivsky's decision, not Narron's. ;)

Some say they would like to see guys like Aurilia and Castro gone, and that there is no place for these type of players on this team.

One needs to take a good hard look at rosters all around ML baseball. These type of players are sitting on every bench in the league. They are also do serve a purpose, and are also geting paying time.

For one to say that they only want to see these guys playing 1 or 2 times a month is, IMO, silly thinking. It depends on the situation, especially during game time, and other factors that can't be controlled or quota'd.

If - in the second half - we see guys like Castro displacing and getting more playing time at 3B and/or SS then EE or Lopez, then I will agree we have a problem.

Even if there is some sort of trade brewing with possibly Lopez by Krivsky. Thinking that supplants Castro as a starter is flawed thinking IMO.

It better be one heck of a deal! ;)

Who knows what the future holds?

It could very well come down to EE going to 1B. Are Hat/Aurilia signed for next year?

And BP could become our future SS.

One never knows.

reds44
07-10-2006, 08:32 PM
I was at the game where he made 3 errors. I was also at the game after, and Rich was playing 3rd.

I don't disagree at all that Castro and Rich need PT, but Edwin should never sit 3 days in a row if he is healthy.

GAC
07-10-2006, 08:40 PM
I was at the game where he made 3 errors. I was also at the game after, and Rich was playing 3rd.

And if I was manager, EE ( a rookie) would have been sitting the bench thinking about what he did in that game.

And in that game in particular, his mental "errors" (or can I say rashness or youthful exhuberance) made him make really bad decisions. ;)

Ltlabner
07-10-2006, 08:46 PM
If Dunn cools off again does that mean he'll go back to being the topic dejour and take over a number of different threads to supplant the EE furor? :pimp:

GAC
07-10-2006, 09:00 PM
If Dunn cools off again does that mean he'll go back to being the topic dejour and take over a number of different threads to supplant the EE furor? :pimp:

Dunn is old news! ;)

KronoRed
07-10-2006, 09:01 PM
If Dunn cools off again does that mean he'll go back to being the topic dejour and take over a number of different threads to supplant the EE furor? :pimp:
Guess so, the board would melt if they were both the hot topics of "lets trade em for cheese" ;)

Tony Cloninger
07-10-2006, 09:11 PM
We need Leo Durocher circa 1968-71........he grinded his starters into the ground. Bench players needed not apply on those Cubs teams.

I think more than half his starting 8 played almost 162 games in 1969 for sure.

westofyou
07-10-2006, 11:41 PM
We need Leo Durocher circa 1968-71........he grinded his starters into the ground. Bench players needed not apply on those Cubs teams.

I think more than half his starting 8 played almost 162 games in 1969 for sure.
Yep, it was a classic move to win for Leo, he had a legacy to look after.

Casey Stengal would not have done it, nor McGraw..... Leo... no freaking problem.

SteelSD
07-11-2006, 01:55 AM
The kid is still learning the position, and IMO, people need to expect the errors during that process.

That is correct.


But respectfully, to say that one only makes mistakes (errors) with the physical part of the body, and that it is void of the emotional (mental) is misguided thinking.

You're talking about throws that should have been held. Those are errors of effort. We should expect those from kids who are learning as well.


To KNOW what to do (or not do) with the ball BEFORE one commits to throw or attempt to execute a play is a big part of the game. And that involves the thinking process. One sees it every day in baseball.

As Kenny says.... "Know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em."

And as far as this "veteran presence" thing goes....

I think people have taken a statement by Narron earlier in the season - and I think it's fine to have FUN or make humor with it - but I think it has gotten blown way out of proportion on this forum.

Especially in the case of Aurilia. At no time, prior to EE going on the DL, did Narron defer or show any doubts towards EE playing 3B and give playing time at 3B to Aurilia. Aurilia was platooning 1B with Hatteberg an overwhelming majority of the time. And they are doing a good job there to IMO.

I remember (as we all do) that one game earlier in the season where EE had 3-4 errors at 3B (which did cost us the game). And it did involve bonehead mental mistakes we all were screaming over. And the next game EE's butt was on the bench, and I'm not sure whether it was RA or Freel who was playing 3B. And Narron came out and said that he wanted EE to sit and watch, and THINK about some of the mental mistakes he made that lead to disasterous throws.

He was then right back in there.

One of the primary rules of management: Don't punish learners. Ever. Encarnacion is at a point in his career where his effort will never be higher. His internal engine of wanting to do well will never be topped as with anyone who's new at their job and trying to prove themself to management. That's why we're seeing errors of effort- because Edwin Encarnacion is trying to do something special to justify his existence. I'd rather he take those risks and learn from his mistakes than to be scared to make said mistakes. He needs that. Every young player needs permission to make mistakes because, lacking that, their game is suppressed. Does Encarnacion need to learn from his mistakes? Certainly. But that takes coaching and encouragment rather than punishment.


The only only other situation involved Womack earlier in the season splitting time at 2B with Freel. And BP solved that problem. A far superior INFer then either.

Veteran player with perceived reputation playing over a better player (Freel) isn't good. It wasn't a problem the Phillips acquistion needed to solve. And I have little doubt that the Phillips acquistion wasn't defensively driven in the first place. Nor do I doubt that the decision to DFA Womack was driven by the fact that Womack can't play any.

Womack was producing a .364 OBP when he was jettisoned. It's interesting to me that a guy was handed a position by Narron when better options were available and was then chucked with a .364 OBP. Womack wasn't going to put that OBP up over time and it's good that he's gone, but the decision appears to be entirely defense-based because Narron doesn't know enough to project long-term performance. We know this because he continues to slot Griffey and Aurilia in the middle of the lineup.

GAC, we've got a ton of data that allows us to understand how decisions are made. Right now they're defense-heavy regardless of offensive output. The Phillips acquisition is working out offensively, but the target was his defensive ability. His offense is a happy accident.


Castro has been on this team approximately two weeks - and that was Krivsky's decision, not Narron's. ;)

Some say they would like to see guys like Aurilia and Castro gone, and that there is no place for these type of players on this team.

One needs to take a good hard look at rosters all around ML baseball. These type of players are sitting on every bench in the league. They are also do serve a purpose, and are also geting playing time.

For one to say that they only want to see these guys playing 1 or 2 times a month is, IMO, silly thinking. It depends on the situation, especially during game time, and other factors that can't be controlled or quota'd.

Castro shouldn't be on the team- period. He shouldn't be getting any playing time and wouldn't be on a team that has a brain. Y'know why he was acquired? The perception of defensive ability. But unlike Phillips, there's no real defensive ability and zero offensive upside. And buffering Narron isn't going to work because Krivsky acquired him but Narron has been playing him. Narron makes out the lineup cards. It's quite apparent that he wants as much defense in the mix as possible on any given day. Problem is that he's demonstrated no ability to actually understand defensive dynamics. Second problem is that he appears to punish learners. We've already figured out how bad a policy that is and I'm not sure why we're excusing Narron from any responsibility. The guy is the Manager of a MLB baseball club. He's got both power and responsibility.


If - in the second half - we see guys like Castro displacing and getting more playing time at 3B and/or SS then EE or Lopez, then I will agree we have a problem.

You wait to see. Ok, but we've got enough information to identify trend and propensity. Situational dynamics. Pitching and defense GM who can't really identify pitching and defense coupled with pitching and defense Manager who can't really identify pitching and defense. That's an awful dynamic. Both can work their way out of those profiles, but they'd better start to do so quickly.


Even if there is some sort of trade brewing with possibly Lopez by Krivsky. Thinking that supplants Castro as a starter is flawed thinking IMO.

It better be one heck of a deal! ;)

Who knows what the future holds?

It could very well come down to EE going to 1B. Are Hat/Aurilia signed for next year?

And BP could become our future SS.

One never knows.

One never knows for sure. That's true. But we can certainly look at past behavior. And that past behavior doesn't project that management knows how to use the players available to them. That's a real issue because it also projects that management may undervalue certain attributes that correlate with winning. Until management can show me that they actually do understand those concepts, you'll have to color me uber-skeptical that we'll see something that doesn't resemble a repeat of the Reds playing losing baseball.

Thusfar, Krivsky's tenure has involved a lot of dice rolling coupled with Narron's inability to consistently put his best players in positions to help. That's a huge issue because contrary to popular belief, the year doesn't choose you- you choose the year. And you choose it by fielding a team that has a real chance and you augment that by high probability personnel decisions and player utilization that makes sense.

Ron Madden
07-11-2006, 02:53 AM
Not one of Edwins supporters have ever claimed there was a conspiracy against him.

We knew all along Narron has more faith in older vets. We said so before spring training. Most of us were afraid if EE got off to a slow start or struggled early Jerry would never give him a fair chance.

Edwin did nothing but hit in spring training and had some Big hits at the begining of the season. Narron had to play him.

Whenever EE made an error Marty and Hal would question Narron about how long he could afford to start EE at 3B.

That's when we saw the writing on the wall. We all knew it was a matter of time if Edwins bat cooled down any at all, Ritchie would take over at 3B.

Then Edwin got injured and what we had all feared came to pass.

I hope I'm wrong we'll see.

RedsBaron
07-11-2006, 07:02 AM
Because they either played for Gene Mauch or were 2nd rate catchers is my summation. Everyone gets ab's on a Mauch team, everyone complains about it too.
I have never understood the cult of Mauch disciples. Mauch managed for 26 seasons between 1960 and 1987. In those 26 seasons his teams finished first exactly once, and then lost the ALCS in Mauch's only post-season appearance. A .574% was the best record any Mauch team ever had. His career mark was 1902-2037, a .483%. Some of his teams were hopeless, but some had talent, and there is little evidence that Mauch ever got more out of his teams than their talent would have allowed. He personally blew the 1964 pennant when he panicked and repeatedly pitched Jim Bunning and Chris Short on short rest. Mauch played small ball and worshipped the sacrifice bunt, while not winning games.

GAC
07-11-2006, 09:00 AM
One of the primary rules of management: Don't punish learners. Ever. Encarnacion is at a point in his career where his effort will never be higher. His internal engine of wanting to do well will never be topped as with anyone who's new at their job and trying to prove themself to management. That's why we're seeing errors of effort- because Edwin Encarnacion is trying to do something special to justify his existence. I'd rather he take those risks and learn from his mistakes than to be scared to make said mistakes. He needs that. Every young player needs permission to make mistakes because, lacking that, their game is suppressed. Does Encarnacion need to learn from his mistakes? Certainly. But that takes coaching and encouragment rather than punishment.

The above is all true Kori; but even Narron made a point to come out and say that EE, basically, was not in his doghouse, nor should his being benched the game afterward be misconstrued as punishment; but that he simply wanting this young player to "take a deep breath" for a game, sit back and watch it, and learn not to press as much.

And I bet he sat down with EE in that office and conveyed that to him too, in order for him to understand. If he didn't, then he is a pretty poor manager.


Womack was producing a .364 OBP when he was jettisoned. It's interesting to me that a guy was handed a position by Narron when better options were available and was then chucked with a .364 OBP. Womack wasn't going to put that OBP up over time and it's good that he's gone, but the decision appears to be entirely defense-based because Narron doesn't know enough to project long-term performance.

But he knows enough about the game to know one's history/performance, and when a guy is playing over his head and will come crashing back to earth. Or maybe it was Krivsky.


GAC, we've got a ton of data that allows us to understand how decisions are made. Right now they're defense-heavy regardless of offensive output. The Phillips acquisition is working out offensively, but the target was his defensive ability. His offense is a happy accident.

I don't necessarily agree that his offense is a happy accident. This too is a young player, just as EE, who IMO, was a product of being jerked around, and maybe, bad coaching.

That we will have to wait and see.

GAC
07-11-2006, 09:05 AM
Not one of Edwins supporters have ever claimed there was a conspiracy against him.

Uh - yes there were Ron; but I'm not gonna drudge that all back up. Just read the EE DL thread. ;)


We knew all along Narron has more faith in older vets. We said so before spring training. Most of us were afraid if EE got off to a slow start or struggled early Jerry would never give him a fair chance.

And yet Narron has given him a fair chance (and I believe will continue to do so). Prior to the DL stint, EE played 51 games at 3B. How many did RA play there when EE was healthy?


Whenever EE made an error Marty and Hal would question Narron about how long he could afford to start EE at 3B.

Marty complains about Dunn alot too.... but has Narron listened to him? ;)


We all knew it was a matter of time if Edwins bat cooled down any at all, Ritchie would take over at 3B.

When did that happen Ron? RA was mainly in a platoon at 1B prior to EE getting hurt. When was Narron displacing EE with RA prior to that?

registerthis
07-11-2006, 09:15 AM
Not one of Edwins supporters have ever claimed there was a conspiracy against him.

Er, going to have to disagree with this one. The recent DL thread about E_E had people speculating about everything from a GM who wants to see his team fail, to a manager who hates young players for no particular reason, to something about Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster, I believe.

SteelSD
07-11-2006, 12:05 PM
The above is all true Kori; but even Narron made a point to come out and say that EE, basically, was not in his doghouse, nor should his being benched the game afterward be misconstrued as punishment; but that he simply wanting this young player to "take a deep breath" for a game, sit back and watch it, and learn not to press as much.

And I bet he sat down with EE in that office and conveyed that to him too, in order for him to understand. If he didn't, then he is a pretty poor manager.

Dunno what he told Encarnacion. But if Narron's M. O. is to sit him after he makes a mistake, that's going to be perceived as punishment rather than coaching despite Narron's statements to the contrary. And I don't know of a young player who wouldn't perceive that getting benched for three games after an error isn't punishment- especially after it followed a too-long rehab stint in which he was positioned at First Base for a managment looksee.

We can speculate all we want on what Encarnacion was told, but at some point any player is going to start thinking, "What's going on?" given the current situational dynamics regardless of what he's told.


But he knows enough about the game to know one's history/performance, and when a guy is playing over his head and will come crashing back to earth. Or maybe it was Krivsky.

Narron is the guy who handed Womack the position in the first place. He took him north from ST. Narron is the guy who's been giving cleanup At-Bats to Rich Aurilia. Narron is the guy who's been using Castro to rest Lopez right before the ASB when Lopez woudn't be doing anything but resting. Narron is going to get little credit from me as to his possible ability to understand performance until he can really demonstrate that he understands performance.


I don't necessarily agree that his offense is a happy accident. This too is a young player, just as EE, who IMO, was a product of being jerked around, and maybe, bad coaching.

That we will have to wait and see.

I sure don't think that the thought process in acquiring Phillips was that he'd drop by to produce a .800 OPS and that his defense would be a bonus. That was a defense-first move. The above par offensive perfomance is an "if he hits" residual. And I don't disagree that Phillips was rushed with the Indians. But they've done a pretty good job developing young positional talent over there.

Puffy
07-11-2006, 12:20 PM
I have never understood the cult of Mauch disciples. Mauch managed for 26 seasons between 1960 and 1987. In those 26 seasons his teams finished first exactly once, and then lost the ALCS in Mauch's only post-season appearance. A .574% was the best record any Mauch team ever had. His career mark was 1902-2037, a .483%. Some of his teams were hopeless, but some had talent, and there is little evidence that Mauch ever got more out of his teams than their talent would have allowed. He personally blew the 1964 pennant when he panicked and repeatedly pitched Jim Bunning and Chris Short on short rest. Mauch played small ball and worshipped the sacrifice bunt, while not winning games.

Thank you - I view Mauch as the most overrated manager of all time. He wasn't bad in a Bob Boone sense, but the love for him is hard for me to fathom.

westofyou
07-11-2006, 12:29 PM
I have never understood the cult of Mauch disciples. Mauch managed for 26 seasons between 1960 and 1987. In those 26 seasons his teams finished first exactly once, and then lost the ALCS in Mauch's only post-season appearance. A .574% was the best record any Mauch team ever had. His career mark was 1902-2037, a .483%. Some of his teams were hopeless, but some had talent, and there is little evidence that Mauch ever got more out of his teams than their talent would have allowed. He personally blew the 1964 pennant when he panicked and repeatedly pitched Jim Bunning and Chris Short on short rest. Mauch played small ball and worshipped the sacrifice bunt, while not winning games.
Mauch was a "players manager" hence the cult.

You have to remember that he managed some poorly funded teams AND an expansion team (first 6 years) that could only pick NL players during their draft too, the Phillies were in a rebuild phase and lost 107 games in 61 and won 81 the next year. he did fairly well with a Twins team that had a dinosaur as an owner and in his first year they traded his best starter (Bert B.) because he wouldn't sign.

The only team that gave him money and wall to wall talent was the Angels.

Personally I find him intriquing, he was a throwback and an innovator at the same time.

Falls City Beer
07-11-2006, 12:32 PM
I think Larussa's without a doubt the most overrated manager of all time. It's not even close. He's done less with more talent than any human being I've ever witnessed. And he sponges his reputation from his brilliant underling, Duncan.

flyer85
07-11-2006, 12:41 PM
Mauch had little track record of success. If you want a manager that turned around just about every team he managed from the moment he showed up, try Billy Martin. Of course by year three everyone was burnt out but boy he get the most out of a team for a short period of time.

RedsBaron
07-11-2006, 12:52 PM
Mauch had little track record of success. If you want a manager that turned around just about every team he managed from the moment he showed up, try Billy Martin. Of course by year three everyone was burnt out but boy he get the most out of a team for a short period of time.
Absolutely true about Billy Martin, but I wouldn't want him handling a staff of young pitchers. When Billy leaves town after 2-3 years, their arms are likely to be gone too.

RANDY IN INDY
07-11-2006, 01:21 PM
Mauch was a "players manager" hence the cult.

You have to remember that he managed some poorly funded teams AND an expansion team (first 6 years) that could only pick NL players during their draft too, the Phillies were in a rebuild phase and lost 107 games in 61 and won 81 the next year. he did fairly well with a Twins team that had a dinosaur as an owner and in his first year they traded his best starter (Bert B.) because he wouldn't sign.

The only team that gave him money and wall to wall talent was the Angels.

Personally I find him intriquing, he was a throwback and an innovator at the same time.

Good post, westofyou. I, too, have always thought that Mauch was one of the more intriguing and innovative managers of his time.

westofyou
07-11-2006, 02:02 PM
Mauch had little track record of success. If you want a manager that turned around just about every team he managed from the moment he showed up, try Billy Martin. Of course by year three everyone was burnt out but boy he get the most out of a team for a short period of time.
I've got a bunch of Martin stuff that I'm compiling for some research, he was called out by Bill James for his pitching usage patterns prior to the A's and then was defended by Gammons in a TSN article, several years later when they were all toast in Oakland James pointed out he was right about Martin.

One thing to not about Martin is ex Red Art Fowler was his pitching coach EVERYWHERE and only had one other job without Billy (64 Angels) He's partlyresponsible for the massive misuse of the arms that Billy left strewn around all those AL clubhouses.

Cooper
07-11-2006, 04:14 PM
I may may not be remembering correctly, but dint Fowler also teach Martin's staff a special kind of curve ball (ala Roger Craig) and for some reason i thought that also contributed to an awful lot of hurt arms.

Martin probably knew he's make jerk of himself in short order so why not burn through all those arms. He wasn't planning to be around more than a year or two anyway.

Jpup
07-11-2006, 05:44 PM
sorry for going back to the original topic, but do you guys think that EdE is heading on the first plane outta Cincy in a trade? I would have to think that, other than Dunn, he is the Reds biggest chip right now. I can't imagine Homer Bailey getting traded for anyone other than a Dontrelle Willis type, so I think that EdE is the guy.

Maybe I should say, if something happens, EdE is the guy to go. I really don't expect much, if anything to happen.

Hubba
07-11-2006, 06:08 PM
sorry for going back to the original topic, but do you guys think that EdE is heading on the first plane outta Cincy in a trade? I would have to think that, other than Dunn, he is the Reds biggest chip right now. I can't imagine Homer Bailey getting traded for anyone other than a Dontrelle Willis type, so I think that EdE is the guy.

Maybe I should say, if something happens, EdE is the guy to go. I really don't expect much, if anything to happen.I think that its going to take a lot to get a little,My guess the next two weeks will tell.