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View Full Version : 135 pitches by Harang?



princeton
07-09-2006, 06:50 AM
:eek:

RedsBaron
07-09-2006, 07:07 AM
Stupid managerial decision in my opinion.

membengal
07-09-2006, 07:28 AM
Jerry Narron has had better weeks.

Ltlabner
07-09-2006, 09:09 AM
As was mentioned over the in game thread, even if your bullpen is a black-hole of suckyness it doesn't make any sense to ride your two best horses so hard that they (potenally) get winded in the 2nd half or a strech run.

It's more of an indictment of the bullpen that he didn't go to it last night, however, that's an issue for The Kriv to work out.

Jpup
07-09-2006, 09:11 AM
Narron has left Harang in the game too long several times this season. It cost the Reds the game last night.

Candy Cummings
07-09-2006, 09:42 AM
According to the Marc Lancaster blog (http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/) they are going to give him an extra day's rest coming out of the break. Obviously, high pitch counts remain a concern. However, when you have someone pitching well and with our bullpen, you certainly do have to win games, especially when you've lost six of seven.

oneupper
07-09-2006, 09:53 AM
Narron's management of the pitching staff has reached obsessive/compulsive status.

Yes..the bullpen is not good (yes, it's bad)...but the bullpen ERA is NOT infinity. Its 5.14. That's the same as Milton's and better than whoever the worst starter has been (Claussen, Williams, Mays).

And what's the ERA of our "better'' pitchers (Ramirez, Harang, Arroyo) in the middle innings or when the begin to tire? Forget about Mays and company...

But Narron insists in making our starters go 6, 7 or 8 even when they've lost it...confident that the offense will get him out of the hole they eventually create.

They hit for themselves in high leverage situations, behind in the score, etc.

When Narron DOES go to the bully...he sets them up to fail, using recently injured pitchers in tough situations, LOOGYs against righties, old guys no matter what...etc.

The lack of work doesn't help the bully either. Instead of pitching 2 or 3 times a week, some of the guys (Belisle?) pitch once every two or three weeks. No one can be sharp that way.

Last night was the last straw. There was NO justification for sending Harang out in the eighth down by two. There was a 5% chance of winning at that point. You don't mess with meal tickets like Harang, with such long odds. It's like undergoing life threatening surgery to whiten your teeth.

I'm officially now in the FIRE NARRON camp.

ghettochild
07-09-2006, 10:04 AM
not that i'm for narron or anything, but back in the golden era, didn't they pitch that much and still be fine for the rest of the season?

obviously he wouldn't have left aaron in without his consent. and if aaron thought he could pitch, then he's gunna pitch.

LINEDRIVER
07-09-2006, 10:19 AM
not that i'm for narron or anything, but back in the golden era, didn't they pitch that much and still be fine for the rest of the season?

obviously he wouldn't have left aaron in without his consent. and if aaron thought he could pitch, then he's gunna pitch.

Yes, that happened regularly back in the day and that was with four-man pitching rotations.

*

RFS62
07-09-2006, 10:31 AM
Pitch count alone isn't enough to make a determination.

The manager and pitching coach have to be watching to see if there's any noticable change in mechanics, if he's laboring harder, falling out of form.

Also, some innings put more stress on a pitcher than others, as would any inning with over 25 pitches, or innings with tough at bats where the pitcher had to really bear down.

It's not just the pitch count, it's other things as well.

PuffyPig
07-09-2006, 10:45 AM
Narron has left Harang in the game too long several times this season. It cost the Reds the game last night.
I can't imamgine that anyone was calling for Harang to be pulled with a shut out going in the 7th last night. After he gave up the 2 run HR, the game was lost. Posters would have hung Narron if he had pulled Harang before the HR.

Chip R
07-09-2006, 10:56 AM
not that i'm for narron or anything, but back in the golden era, didn't they pitch that much and still be fine for the rest of the season?

obviously he wouldn't have left aaron in without his consent. and if aaron thought he could pitch, then he's gunna pitch.

Yes they did. And after a few years they would come down with a sore shoulder or a sore elbow and could not pitch any more. Back then they did not know they tore their rotator cuff or tore a tendon in their elbow. Aaron is still a young pitcher. 135 pitches may not have an effect on him on his next start or the start after that or in September. But it may give him problems down the road.

The last person a manager wants to ask on whether a pitcher should stay in the game is the pitcher. Of course he is going to want to stay in. Even if he has nothing left he is going to lie about it to the manager so he can stay in there. I completely understand why Narron did what he did. I certainly do not think that he would have left him in there if he would have had even one pitcher down there who he trusted to get Francour. Leaving him in after that was just Narron not wanting a 3 run deficit to become a 5, 6, 7 run deficit.

redsrule2500
07-09-2006, 10:57 AM
Harang was the one wanting to stay in, said he was fine.

danforsman
07-09-2006, 11:05 AM
I believe that the stat shown on the Reds' TV broadcast was that the Reds' bullpen had not had consecutive scoreless outings since May 5 and 6.

Matt700wlw
07-09-2006, 11:20 AM
I'm officially now in the FIRE NARRON camp.

Don't get your hopes up

Matt700wlw
07-09-2006, 11:23 AM
Harang was the one wanting to stay in, said he was fine.

Most likely.

Pitchers of his caliber have a lot of say on what goes on.

Tommyjohn25
07-09-2006, 11:27 AM
I'm officially now in the FIRE NARRON camp.

You want to fire the manager when this team is 3 games out of 1st place halfway through the season?

Falls City Beer
07-09-2006, 11:30 AM
Harang was the one wanting to stay in, said he was fine.

Narron's the field manager. He calls the shots. Sometimes someone other than one's own self knows what's best for one's own self.

Narron wasn't looking out for the welfare of Harang or the team by doing what he did last night.

VR
07-09-2006, 11:32 AM
I don't think they were afraid to call on the bully at all. I think they were trying to get Aaron a chance at the 10 win milestone. I hope that was the case, because it is very noble. Unwise, but noble.

The back to back stat is :yikes:

RedLegSuperStar
07-09-2006, 11:38 AM
At the game that was the main thing I was watching was the pitch count.. both for Smoltz and for Harang. That double over Dunn against the wall should of been it.. and that was around 110-115. Bullpen is never going to get confidence that away. What kind of message does that send to them?

Tommyjohn25
07-09-2006, 11:39 AM
What kind of message does that send to them?


A truthful one? :mooner:



Nah, I know what you mean.

Jpup
07-09-2006, 12:12 PM
I can't imamgine that anyone was calling for Harang to be pulled with a shut out going in the 7th last night. After he gave up the 2 run HR, the game was lost. Posters would have hung Narron if he had pulled Harang before the HR.

as soon as the ball went over the wall, Narron should have marched his end out to the mound and took Harang out.

IslandRed
07-09-2006, 12:13 PM
Aaron is still a young pitcher.

I'll disagree on that. Harang is 28 years old and has been taking his turn in the rotation for a few seasons now. He's as in-his-prime as it gets, physically. His career isn't about development anymore, it's about maintenance and refinement.

Having said that, I'm finished playing devil's advocate on the subject -- after we went scoreless in the top of the eighth and cut our win expectancy down to 5% or so, as someone else mentioned in the thread, it should have been turned over to the bullpen. I can live with a pitch-count spike every great now and then but it should be reserved for a truly meaningful situation and this wasn't.

Candy Cummings
07-09-2006, 12:22 PM
Fire Narron? I can't support that. Who do we think is going to do better with this group?

reds44
07-09-2006, 12:25 PM
Fire Narron? I can't support that. Who do we think is going to do better with this group?
Somebody who plays out best players?

Jpup
07-09-2006, 12:25 PM
Fire Narron? I can't support that. Who do we think is going to do better with this group?

Davey Johnson.:D

ochre
07-09-2006, 01:16 PM
It's a micro/macro study. Jeapordize a solid pitcher for one day's results, while avoiding the component that will, over the course of the remaining games, be the factor that determines whether this team can continue to contend, or not. In the end, without much better results from the bullpen, the outcome of last night's game was insignificant. The potential long term effect on one of the teams best starters, while somewhat nebulous, should really factor more into the decision process than the more immediately tangible results of the single event (one game).

TRF
07-10-2006, 09:00 AM
I thought it was one helluva messagesent by Harang. he said basically "I don't care if we are about to get 3 days off, I'd like to win this game, and I'm the best option."

And he was right. Harang is a big guy. With the added rest, he should be ok. But this bullpen needed a kick in the pants that only a peer could provide.