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View Full Version : Time to gut this team like a fish. Sale, Sale, Sale



Redmachine2003
07-09-2006, 02:00 PM
With having no bullpen and only two starters you can count on and an offense that is prone to team slumps. I say it is time to sale. I know I will take heat for this but every year we look good for the first quarter or half then down we go. We keep thinking we have a good core, maybe if we add one or two pieces to it next year so the Reds don't make any major moves. But what if our core is the Reason for this failure every year? Dunn isn't improving, Kearns seems to be just an avg. player and Jr is always one step from the DL. Think about the Package Bronson could bring with his contract? This could be the Year to move JR like everyone wants. What could Dunn Bring? Kearns who still has enough Hype to make a very good trade. I want to win just as much as the next person but I really don't think this team has got what it takes to win over the long haul.

CTA513
07-09-2006, 02:06 PM
Trade everyone and bring up the Dayton Dragons.

:beerme:

westofyou
07-09-2006, 02:07 PM
Trade everyone and bring up the Midland Redskins.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2006, 02:09 PM
Why a firesale? Especially when a great many of the talented players on this club are either: a. under affordable contracts or b. miles away from free agency.

Go ahead and dump the oldsters, but don't complain when you get nothing for them.

Redmachine2003
07-09-2006, 03:06 PM
Why a firesale? Especially when a great many of the talented players on this club are either: a. under affordable contracts or b. miles away from free agency.

Go ahead and dump the oldsters, but don't complain when you get nothing for them.
Why because we say the same thing every year and fill all the holes with old guys that no one else wants, because we don't have anyone in the upper minors. This team needs to make impact trades. In order to get talent you need trade talent.

Joseph
07-09-2006, 03:15 PM
Now we have a GM who isn't Dan O'Brien though, lets give him an offseason to fill in with better players than the reject/knows how to win types DoB seemed to offer 2 year deals to.

Remember, the Marlins firesale involved very highly coveted players that brought in all that talent in their firesale, what we have may not qualify in the same way.

Redmachine2003
07-09-2006, 03:39 PM
Now we have a GM who isn't Dan O'Brien though, lets give him an offseason to fill in with better players than the reject/knows how to win types DoB seemed to offer 2 year deals to.

Remember, the Marlins firesale involved very highly coveted players that brought in all that talent in their firesale, what we have may not qualify in the same way.
I think Bronson and Dunn could get alot talent in return. Merker and Weathers could get some low A talent. Kearns may bring more in the off season.

OldXOhio
07-09-2006, 03:40 PM
Why a firesale? Especially when a great many of the talented players on this club are either: a. under affordable contracts or b. miles away from free agency.

Go ahead and dump the oldsters, but don't complain when you get nothing for them.

No, I'm with you. Don't let a bad streak like this distract from the fact that progress has been made this year over last. Deal parts like FeLo, Kearns and Larue if it can bring quality arms, but leave the majority of the core intact.

LoganBuck
07-09-2006, 04:00 PM
I think Bronson and Dunn could get alot talent in return. Merker and Weathers could get some low A talent. Kearns may bring more in the off season.

Why would you trade Dunn or Arroyo whom the Reds control for two more years each? I doubt either of them bring enough back to justify their departure, and Arroyo is a low cost pitcher, If he was .500 with a decent IP total he would be worth his contract.

Mercker might net a AA reliever (see Belisle, Matt) if he pitches well up to the deadline. The consensus on the board is that Weathers is pitching with some sort of injury and I am sure his value would be very low. Kearns may have the some good trade value, but the Reds do control him for two more years as well. Aurillia Hatteburg Larue Ross and possibly Lopez are your major league chips to trade, and only Lopez holds real value.

The question becomes what do Wayne Krivsky, Jerry Narron, and Bob Castellini want the team to look like? Do they want to add some fertilizer to the mix, or do they want to prune to promote new growth?

redsupport
07-09-2006, 05:16 PM
the team was doomed once griffey the onanistic, solipsistic, loser joined its ranks

Caveat Emperor
07-09-2006, 05:30 PM
the team was doomed once griffey the onanistic, solipsistic, loser joined its ranks

Although I'm almost positive it wasn't your intent, your post does raise at least one interesting contribution to western thought: Does a Solipsist who plays a team sport automatically suffer from multiple personality disorder?

dougdirt
07-09-2006, 05:43 PM
the team was doomed once griffey the onanistic, solipsistic, loser joined its ranks

Boy arent you a ray of sunshine? I am sure it was Griffeys fault that the Reds had 2 pitchers with ERA's under 4 from 2000-2005 right?

RFS62
07-09-2006, 05:45 PM
Mike de la Hoz, is that you?

RANDY IN INDY
07-09-2006, 05:46 PM
the team was doomed once griffey the onanistic, solipsistic, loser joined its ranks

Do we have an old friend, joining us again?

westofyou
07-09-2006, 05:46 PM
the team was doomed once griffey the onanistic, solipsistic, loser joined its ranks
I'd say that the subtext of that is that Bowden sold the story to Lindner and then couldn't get the special effects and other actors together, giving the Reds a Buck Rodgers in the 25th Century in a Star War age.

KoryMac5
07-09-2006, 06:27 PM
Lets tear down and start over I think not. Rebuilding is just that a project that sets you back 3 or 4 years. Yes a team like the Marlins got very good prospects out of their trades but for every Marlin rebuilding project you have I will show you a Tampa or a Pittsburgh. These teams are continually rebuilding. We have a good core group of players signed to financially sound deals. Keep the core and see what we can get for the veterans such as Hat, Rich, and Griffey.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2006, 06:34 PM
griffey the onanistic,

According to Genesis 38:7-9, when Onan had sexual intercourse with Tamar he "spilt his seed upon the ground" because the resulting child would be considered his late brother's, not his. In response to this transgression, God killed Onan.

redsupport
07-09-2006, 06:39 PM
If, however Onan, had decided the use his advanced scouts intelligence, and occasionally, only occasionally, spill the seed to the right of the shortstop, then perhaps the downtrodden, despondent, lugubrious franchise would soar like Icarus

b_combs23
07-09-2006, 06:55 PM
I think you have to sell too if the right deal comes along. This team doesnt have a realistic shot, especially with Sheets Ohka and Clemens in the mix in the second half. I am not saying make stupid moves that will hurt our future but as far as the simple question of buyers or sellers I would hope the Reds are sellers. (unless we can replace the entire bullpen)

schroomytunes
07-09-2006, 06:56 PM
Let's not panic, we are still in this thing, every team has its share of slumps throughout the season. If we are going to sell players then we need to focus on dumping these guys and only these guys:

Hatteberg, Aurilia, Mercker, Weathers, Larue, Valentin, Yan, Guardado, Griffey, Milton, Claussen and yes Lopez.

Lopez is my wild card, because we can move Phillips to SS and Freel plays 2nd, till the off season.

Redmachine2003
07-09-2006, 07:08 PM
Let's not panic, we are still in this thing, every team has its share of slumps throughout the season. If we are going to sell players then we need to focus on dumping these guys and only these guys:

Hatteberg, Aurilia, Mercker, Weathers, Larue, Valentin, Yan, Guardado, Griffey, Milton, Claussen and yes Lopez.

Lopez is my wild card, because we can move Phillips to SS and Freel plays 2nd, till the off season. That is what gets the Reds into this mess to begin with. They dump players to rid themself of salaries or just to dump that player. They get very little in return and never really rebuild. You have to trade something to get something.

b_combs23
07-09-2006, 07:10 PM
I would love to get rid of all those guys but realistically they are not going to net anything substantial except Lopez. I am for dealing Lopez, Dunn, and Arroyo as long as the its the right deal. We cant build a frachise around a guy who hits under .250 and strikes out 200 times a year.

Redmachine2003
07-09-2006, 07:12 PM
Lets tear down and start over I think not. Rebuilding is just that a project that sets you back 3 or 4 years. Yes a team like the Marlins got very good prospects out of their trades but for every Marlin rebuilding project you have I will show you a Tampa or a Pittsburgh. These teams are continually rebuilding. We have a good core group of players signed to financially sound deals. Keep the core and see what we can get for the veterans such as Hat, Rich, and Griffey.
Pitt and Tampa Dumped players and/or their salaries they never really dealt form a place of power to get the most for them. Florida did. The Reds are in a place of power to trade. They don't have to Trade a Dunn or Bronson unless they get the most they can. I wouldn't mind having that kid that Tampa got from the Mets what was his name again? I think the Reds passed over him in the draft or something like that.:evil: :evil:

Unassisted
07-09-2006, 07:26 PM
If our second place team holds a firesale at the All Star break, I think the baseball fans of Cincinnati should riot in the streets. Gather up the sharpened yard tools from the garage, fill your pockets and purses with Hudy Light empties and head on down to GABP! http://www.cyberbabycafe.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_pissed.gif

:evil:

butlerbulldogs
07-09-2006, 07:29 PM
what is our record in the last 25 games? like 6-19? just curious

IrishDavidKY
07-09-2006, 08:03 PM
If we are going to sell players then we need to focus on dumping these guys and only these guys:

Hatteberg, Aurilia, Mercker, Weathers, Larue, Valentin, Yan, Guardado, Griffey, Milton, Claussen and yes Lopez.

While I don't think it's at all time to back up the truck, I do think if we start to loose steam in the 2nd half unloading veterans that won't be back next year is a no brainer. However, I think out of the group listed above I would be only willing to give up on: Aurilia, Mercker, Weathers, LaRue, Yan and Milton.

Even by moving these guys your not going to get very much in return low to mid-range minor leaguers.

KronoRed
07-09-2006, 08:51 PM
If our second place team holds a firesale at the All Star break, I think the baseball fans of Cincinnati should riot in the streets. Gather up the sharpened yard tools from the garage, fill your pockets and purses with Hudy Light empties and head on down to GABP! http://www.cyberbabycafe.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_pissed.gif

:evil:
Nah, most them would say "Oh well..when do the bengals play?" ;)

kyred14
07-09-2006, 08:55 PM
I would love to get rid of all those guys but realistically they are not going to net anything substantial except Lopez. I am for dealing Lopez, Dunn, and Arroyo as long as the its the right deal. We cant build a frachise around a guy who hits under .250 and strikes out 200 times a year.

Even though you're patentely wrong about Dunn, (no need to get into that) why would you want get rid of Arroyo. We have him locked up on the cheap for two more years. Lopez needs to be traded while he still has value. I would also look to trade Freel.

dabvu2498
07-09-2006, 08:56 PM
Nah, most them would say "Oh well..when do the bengals play?" ;)
Isn't that what we're all really thinking around here anyways? ;)

Except GAC. I think he's a Borwnies fan. :thumbdown:

westofyou
07-09-2006, 08:57 PM
Isn't that what we're all really thinking around here anyways? ;)

Except GAC. I think he's a Borwnies fan. :thumbdown:
Nope... not me.

edabbs44
07-09-2006, 08:58 PM
While I don't think it's at all time to back up the truck, I do think if we start to loose steam in the 2nd half unloading veterans that won't be back next year is a no brainer. However, I think out of the group listed above I would be only willing to give up on: Aurilia, Mercker, Weathers, LaRue, Yan and Milton.

Even by moving these guys your not going to get very much in return low to mid-range minor leaguers.
Lose steam in the second half? This team currently has zero steam.

Redmachine2003
07-09-2006, 09:22 PM
Even though you're patentely wrong about Dunn, (no need to get into that) why would you want get rid of Arroyo. We have him locked up on the cheap for two more years. Lopez needs to be traded while he still has value. I would also look to trade Freel. Arroyo will net the most in trade for that reason.

Hey Meat
07-09-2006, 09:53 PM
Trade everyone and bring up the Midland Redskins.
I'm originally from Ohio, but graduated from High School in Farmington, NM where the Connie Mack World Series is held every year. I have seen plenty of the Midland Redskins teams (yes even the one that had Ken Griffey Jr.) I say amen to that.

Tommyjohn25
07-09-2006, 10:27 PM
Isn't that what we're all really thinking around here anyways?


Count me out of this statement. Baseball is irreplaceable, no matter what the Reds record is. Which, by the way is a game over .500 at the break in case the majority here didn't notice.

dabvu2498
07-09-2006, 10:28 PM
Count me out of this statement. Baseball is irreplaceable, no matter what the Reds record is. Which, by the way is a game over .500 at the break in case the majority here didn't notice.
And what was it at the break in 2004???

James B.
07-09-2006, 10:28 PM
I know that it has been hard to watch this team lately but this team is only a game and a half out of the wildcard. Baseball is a funny game and anything can happen. The reds have been an up and down team this year. All it would take is one good week to put the reds back in front of the wildcard and possibly the division.

dabvu2498
07-09-2006, 10:30 PM
All it would take is one good week to put the reds back in front of the wildcard and possibly the division.
But it's going to take 3 good months to actually win either of those.

Tommyjohn25
07-09-2006, 10:43 PM
And what was it at the break in 2004???


47-41. Doesn't matter, first of all that wasn't my point. My main point is there will never be a day when I will be using baseball as a stopgap for football, as you said "everyone" here is. Though I think you said it kind of tongue in cheek. If you want to talk about the record in 2004, well...this isn't 2004, this is a different team with a different front office in a MUCH weaker division. It just seems that this board is acting as if they're 20 games out, if everyone is so sure that they aren't going to succeed, don't watch. Just go get in line way in advance for Bengals tickets.

westofyou
07-09-2006, 10:53 PM
My main point is there will never be a day when I will be using baseball as a stopgap for football

The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love.
- Bryant Gumbel

OldXOhio
07-09-2006, 10:57 PM
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love.
- Bryant Gumbel

Great quote. I just wish the author were different.

schroomytunes
07-10-2006, 01:57 AM
Fellas, we are not out of this by any means, we are still in the hunt for the playoffs, unlike the AL the NL has only 1 team out in front and lucky for us there not in our division(NYM). We have to play within our boundaries, and by that I mean what is our long-term vision. I think that is what's going to put us on top for years to come. The playoffs are great this year, but I want them every year, and if we have to give up guys like BAiley and Votto then I say no to any major deals. Now on the other hand what if these came along:

1)Chicago White Sox- trade Brian Anderson(CF) and Sean Tracey(SP) for Ken Griffey.

2)San Francisco-trade Kevin Correja(RP) for Scott Hatteberg

3)Chicago Cubs-trade Ronny Cedeno(SS) Will Ohman(RP) and Michael Wuertz(RP) for Felipe Lopez

we simply must look at all avenues, if it helps us build for next year.

reds44
07-10-2006, 02:00 AM
Fellas, we are not out of this by any means, we are still in the hunt for the playoffs, unlike the AL the NL has only 1 team out in front and lucky for us there not in our division(NYM). We have to play within our boundaries, and by that I mean what is our long-term vision. I think that is what's going to put us on top for years to come. The playoffs are great this year, but I want them every year, and if we have to give up guys like BAiley and Votto then I say no to any major deals. Now on the other hand what if these came along:

1)Chicago White Sox- trade Brian Anderson(CF) and Sean Tracey(SP) for Ken Griffey.

2)San Francisco-trade Kevin Correja(RP) for Scott Hatteberg

3)Chicago Cubs-trade Ronny Cedeno(SS) Will Ohman(RP) and Michael Wuertz(RP) for Felipe Lopez

we simply must look at all avenues, if it helps us build for next year.
1) Even though Anderson can't hit at all, if you don't have to pay for Junior's salary I would do it.

2) I don't know about Correja so I can't coment.

3) Cedeno has a terrible OBP and OPS, and isn't a great fielder. We have William Bergolla in AAA and they are similar players. IMO you could get more for FeLo.

REDREAD
07-10-2006, 08:45 AM
Why would you trade Dunn or Arroyo whom the Reds control for two more years each? I doubt either of them bring enough back to justify their departure, and Arroyo is a low cost pitcher, If he was .500 with a decent IP total he would be worth his contract.


Yes Arroyo is definitely a keeper. He may not be a #1, but he's exactly what the Reds need -- a guy locked into an affordable contract that gives innings and quality starts. I really doubt Arroyo's value has skyrocketed that much since the Reds got him.

IMO, it's crazy to have a firesale now. We have two good starting pitchers and a good offense. We need help on defense and bullpen, but that can be fixed in the offseason.

Since our farm is bare, it makes more sense to try to win now. If the farm system was loaded with talent (like the Marlins was), it's easier to swallow dumping the ML team because you can bring up talented replacements. Let's keep the core intact and hope Wayne can build the farm through the draft over the next 3-4 years. We may not make the playoffs in the Dunn-Arroyo-Harang era, but at least the team will be interesting to watch, and will sell tickets. The worst thing Cast could do now is to order a firesale. Remember, he's trying to win the fans back. If he orders Dunn, Arroyo, Lopez, and Harang traded for prospects (no matter how good those prospects are) he's going to lose a lot of goodwill and faith from the fans.

Krusty
07-10-2006, 08:53 AM
So, if you told everyone in spring training that this team would be one game over .500 and within five games of the Cards for the NL Central and 1.5 games behind the wildcard spot, that we should be selling at the trading deadline?

When are we going to get out of this losing mentality and start looking at the glass as half full?

zombie-a-go-go
07-10-2006, 09:06 AM
It would be great to sneak ionto the playoffs this year with a weak NL, but let's not fool ourselves here - come the playoffs, this team will not win a WS title. If they get there, great - but don't give up anything of value to slap a fresh coat of paint on Reds '06. There's a lot of structural work that needs to be done before this team becomes an every-year contender.

This season has been great so far - enjoy it, but accept it for what it is. What it ain't is a championship-caliber team.

registerthis
07-10-2006, 09:30 AM
I really, REALLY don't understand any calls to trade Arroyo.

Makes not bleepin' lick of sense to me.

redsupport
07-10-2006, 10:18 AM
Harry Chiti was traded for himself, in a player to be named deal, a tremendous deal for the Mets, It cleared the wat for Chris Canizzaro.

registerthis
07-10-2006, 10:22 AM
Harry Chiti was traded for himself, in a player to be named deal, a tremendous deal for the Mets, It cleared the wat for Chris Canizzaro.

Indeed he was. Harry Chiti is my hero.

redsupport
07-10-2006, 10:30 AM
what about Cliff Cook the redoubtable, third baseman the Mets purloined from the Reds in the unforgettable expansion draft of 1962, he needs your support

westofyou
07-10-2006, 10:35 AM
what about Cliff Cook the redoubtable, third baseman the Mets purloined from the Reds in the unforgettable expansion draft of 1962, he needs your support
The Reds traded Cook for the infamous Mr Potato Head Don Zimmer.

They lost these guys in the draft.

Pick by NY N Gus Bell.
Pick by NY N Elio Chacon.
Pick by HOU N Dick Gernert.
Pick by NY N Jay Hook.
Pick by HOU N Ken Johnson.
Pick by NY N Sherman Jones.

redsupport
07-10-2006, 10:55 AM
Sherman "Roadblock" Jones
Jay Hook, electrical engineering student at Northwestern, won the Mets first game I think 9-1 over Pirates
Dick Gernert, key pinch hitter in the Reds 1961 season
Ken Johnson, pitched a no hitter against reds and lost on a Nellie Fox error to Joe Nuxhall while pitching for Colt 45's
Elio Chacon what a sad loss for the 1961 hero of game two
Gus Bell no comment, he was too good for any satiric response

nmculbreth
07-10-2006, 12:49 PM
It would be great to sneak ionto the playoffs this year with a weak NL, but let's not fool ourselves here - come the playoffs, this team will not win a WS title. If they get there, great - but don't give up anything of value to slap a fresh coat of paint on Reds '06. There's a lot of structural work that needs to be done before this team becomes an every-year contender.

This season has been great so far - enjoy it, but accept it for what it is. What it ain't is a championship-caliber team.

My thoughts exactly. I've really enjoyed the way the Reds have overachieved thusfar but lets face it this team has way too many holes to be a serious contender. With so many teams in playoff contention I'd think this would be a great opportunity to sell off some of our spare parts for more than they'd normally be worth. By the same token this might be a great time to try to move Griffey, he has been relatively healthy and productive this season and with so many teams in contention I'd think there might be a couple teams willing to take a chance on him. I may be in the minority but I'd be willing to concede this season if I was able to put the pieces in place for the club to become perennial contenders a couple years down the road.

forfreelin04
07-10-2006, 01:41 PM
My thoughts exactly. I've really enjoyed the way the Reds have overachieved thusfar but lets face it this team has way too many holes to be a serious contender. With so many teams in playoff contention I'd think this would be a great opportunity to sell off some of our spare parts for more than they'd normally be worth. By the same token this might be a great time to try to move Griffey, he has been relatively healthy and productive this season and with so many teams in contention I'd think there might be a couple teams willing to take a chance on him. I may be in the minority but I'd be willing to concede this season if I was able to put the pieces in place for the club to become perennial contenders a couple years down the road.

I certainly argree with you. I am sick of overacheiving then trying to put pieces here and there then failing miserably the next year or two. I'd much rather have a plan for the future then spend some money based on necessity for this season, which I feel has been a sheet pulled over the eyes of many. Some of you were probably taken in april while others were taken in during June(winning streak). Sadly, Bob Castellini or whoever was in his ear jumped the gun on Narron too. I just don't think Jerry is the answer. Remember, he is Dan O Briens guy.

However, if the Reds will finally go to a youth movement. And I don't even really care if they lose 100 games next year. I think we will see a difference in 3 years. I'm talking BIG difference. I'm not saying trade away our bigger name offensive powers. But I am saying let this baby tank for a few years and see what happens. The jury is still out on Detroit but their proving my point so far this season. We have the owner and GM in place. The rest is just putting trust in them to do whatever needs to be done.

KronoRed
07-10-2006, 03:01 PM
It would be great to sneak ionto the playoffs this year with a weak NL, but let's not fool ourselves here - come the playoffs, this team will not win a WS title. If they get there, great - but don't give up anything of value to slap a fresh coat of paint on Reds '06. There's a lot of structural work that needs to be done before this team becomes an every-year contender.

This season has been great so far - enjoy it, but accept it for what it is. What it ain't is a championship-caliber team.
Agreed.

IMO the goal is to win the series, .500, 90 wins, ext..not important, the goal is to raise a banner.

REDREAD
07-10-2006, 03:54 PM
It would be great to sneak ionto the playoffs this year with a weak NL, but let's not fool ourselves here - come the playoffs, this team will not win a WS title. .

That's true. This team would not win the world series. Still, the 1999 season helped rejuvinate the franchise. It would be nice, even if the team finished close to the wild card after all these years of mediocrity. Might even help attract some bullpen FAs in the offseason. This team has to change it's loser image to attract fans and FAs.

Sean_CaseyRules
07-10-2006, 04:03 PM
Where did all the optimistic views go? I see that if the bullpen doesn't get changed drastically then we will have dark times ahead, but that doesn't have to stop us from being optimistic about a team that we all love!

nmculbreth
07-10-2006, 05:59 PM
That's true. This team would not win the world series. Still, the 1999 season helped rejuvinate the franchise. It would be nice, even if the team finished close to the wild card after all these years of mediocrity. Might even help attract some bullpen FAs in the offseason. This team has to change it's loser image to attract fans and FAs.

As great as the 1999 season was I think it serves as a cautionary tale as well. After coming so close to making the playoffs the Reds management misjudged where they were at as an organization and the moves they made afterward have hindered the Reds abiliity to compete for the rest of this decade. Who knows where the organization would be if management had decided to stick to their previous timetable but I don't think it's unfounded to say we would probably be in a better situation had we not decided to trade for Griffey or re-sign Larkin for more than the franchise could afford.

I hope that this management group does a better job with evaluating where the club stands and opts to make moves which allow for the team to be perennial contenders and not another one year wonder.

Handofdeath
07-10-2006, 06:27 PM
Food for thought. The Reds have 13 blown saves this year. Now assume that the Reds had a good bullpen and take away half of those blown saves and assume that the Reds would have 7 more wins. Do you know what you have? A team who would be one game behind the Mets for the best record in the NL.

forfreelin04
07-10-2006, 06:34 PM
As great as the 1999 season was I think it serves as a cautionary tale as well. After coming so close to making the playoffs the Reds management misjudged where they were at as an organization and the moves they made afterward have hindered the Reds abiliity to compete for the rest of this decade. Who knows where the organization would be if management had decided to stick to their previous timetable but I don't think it's unfounded to say we would probably be in a better situation had we not decided to trade for Griffey or re-sign Larkin for more than the franchise could afford.

I hope that this management group does a better job with evaluating where the club stands and opts to make moves which allow for the team to be perennial contenders and not another one year wonder.

I for one look back on 99 season as bad thing too. I see another one happening right before our eyes. Perhaps, at the worst of times too. Though I do trust Wayne over Bowden. I think even Wayne would overspend on another 2000 team but I dont think at the lengths Bowden did. But then again, what if Griffey was healthy for those seasons and produced numbers coeherent with his All Century Team numbers? I would bet they would have been better but not WS caliber.

I agree with many who have said WS or bust. I dont think anyone is optimistic enough to say this team is anywhere near such a level. They might slip into the WC because of the lack of great teams in the NL, the West always beating up on themselves, and no real clear cut team besides the Mets in the East. Not to mention they could easily tank the second half of the season with a pitching injury here or there. So it is possible for the playoffs this year espcially if the bullpen improves. WHICH IT WILL, I mean could it get any worse? YES I know. but I wouldnt bet on it.

One question to push this thread maybe a bit further. Dunn and Kearns have shared the spotlight so to speak as the young should be in the future All Stars on this team for quite sometime. Are you willing to part with them for whatever we need? Or are you more willing to leave them as centerpieces and trade more blue chips like Bailey, Edwin, Deno, Votto, or Bruce who are unproven in the bigs?

Benny-Distefano
07-10-2006, 07:00 PM
wouldn't it be nice to have a playoff-capable Reds team OVER ACHIEVE into the World Series?

Instead it is always the sub-par Reds with the small-market payroll, always OVER ACHIEVING to .500 ball.

Where are you BIG RED MACHINE?!?!?
Answer: Sucked up into the vacuum that is a "capless MLB."