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View Full Version : Hot Stoving a little bit



The_jbh
07-12-2006, 02:47 PM
There has been a lot of Dontrelle Willis talk and a lot of Adam Dunn talk so I was trying to piece together how this could work. This has no rumor basis or anything just a thought that I thought would be fun to discuss

The Yankees need an OF of Dunn's caliber so how bout this three way. People say it would be impossible to get Willis without including Bailey which is unlikely... how bout this?


Reds receive
Dontrelle Willis
Joe Borowski

Yankees Recieve
Adam Dunn

Marlins recieve"
P Phillip Hughes
P Jeff Marquez
3B Carlo Vechionachi
OF Javon Moran



Reds get help in the pen and an ace they need giving up Dunn and a guy thats probably #4 on the OF minor league depth chart? Yankees get Dunn a slugger for the years

The marlins get one of the best pitching prospects in baseball, 2 more of the Yankees top 10 prospects... and a guy in the form of Juan Pierre plus drop their biggest contract and their closer.

Dunn and a prospect is a lot to give up but We are getting a closer and ace at the deadline where value is a premium and Pitching has more value than bats...

Thoughts on either 3 sides? is this realistic?

Heath
07-12-2006, 02:47 PM
I dislike Hotstoves in July.

Maybe airconditioners.

And in the rain-soaked Bronx, Brian Cashman has been seen laughing on 161st Street.

edabbs44
07-12-2006, 02:47 PM
Nope...NYY giving up too much.

pedro
07-12-2006, 02:52 PM
No thanks. I'd keep Dunn.

I'm just not that hot on Dontrelle.

The_jbh
07-12-2006, 02:56 PM
you think 3 prospects for Dunn is too much? Phillips is a great prospect but the other 2 are in the bottom of a top 10 in a system that isn't very strong. I don't think Marquez would even make our top 10. He has a low 4 era in high A i believe

BrooklynRedz
07-12-2006, 02:57 PM
Kearns and Bailey for Willis and a decent bullpen arm.

The_jbh
07-12-2006, 03:04 PM
i dont see the reds giving up bailey without getting Willis and Cabrerra or something blockbuster like that. I think the whole organization is too high on him

Benihana
07-12-2006, 03:16 PM
Willis isn't going anywhere. I would focus my efforts on an Ervin Santana type, less heralded but perhaps another Bronson Arroyo in the making. Also will come with a lower price tag.

I still like the Kearns for Santana deal, straight up. Throw in any prospect not named Bailey, Bruce or Votto if you need to. Especially if it means we could squeeze one of their middle infield prospects out as well, as they have a backlog there. Freel/Denorfia platoon makes up for any lost offensive production.

pedro
07-12-2006, 03:18 PM
i dont see the reds giving up bailey without getting Willis and Cabrerra or something blockbuster like that. I think the whole organization is too high on him

Bailye is doing well but he may never actually pan out and you think he's enough to land Willis and Cabrera?

Falls City Beer
07-12-2006, 03:18 PM
I still like the Kearns for Santana deal, straight up. Throw in any prospect not named Bailey, Bruce or Votto if you need to.

Those ARE the Reds' prospects.

edabbs44
07-12-2006, 03:19 PM
you think 3 prospects for Dunn is too much? Phillips is a great prospect but the other 2 are in the bottom of a top 10 in a system that isn't very strong. I don't think Marquez would even make our top 10. He has a low 4 era in high A i believe
If you were the Reds would you deal Bailey for Dunn? The Yankees are in desperate need of young pitching and have a potential ace in AA. I think that they would think about dealing Hughes more if they were getting Cabrera or Willis back. Not Dunn.

Personally I think Dunn would hate NY. The fans would be relentless with the Ks. And OBP won't mean anything to the media and fans out here if he hits .230. Just my opinion.

Benihana
07-12-2006, 03:28 PM
Those ARE the Reds' prospects.

I think there are some people that would bring Travis Wood, Johnny Cueto, and Zach Ward to your attention.

The_jbh
07-12-2006, 03:33 PM
Bailye is doing well but he may never actually pan out and you think he's enough to land Willis and Cabrera?

Obviously it would take a lot more but for him to be a piece of a deal i think we'd have to be getting that type of return for the brass to deal him.


As for Dunn hating NY, I'm sure he'd hate NY. He has said that he likes smaller cities and cincy is the right size and your exactly right about his Ks and OBP... however as far as I know Dunn doesn't have a no trade clause so it doesnt matter what he likes.

I probably should have prefaced this thread in saying that I have no desire to move Dunn anywhere but 1st base for the cincinnati reds. I think Denorfia in LF and Dunn at 1B improves our OF range and I'm ot that impressed with Hattey at 1st that i think dunn is that much of a downgrade. I've always been a supporter of not trading away a cornerstone like Dunn, however it looks like either Kearns or Dunn are going to go so I was throwing out this idea bc its something a lot of people have talked about (that being the Reds aquiring Willis) and I thought this deal made sense for the sides.


As for the Yankees, would they deal Hughes for Dunn? In my opinion yes, the Boss is very short sighted and he wants to win now. THey have rarely been reluctant to deal their top prospects in the past so why not now. Taking out that Dunn would probably hate NY, Dunn could be a move more the future for them as well... Sheffield is getting close to retirement age, Bernie is going to retire. He could be a clog for awhile for them...

Marc D
07-12-2006, 03:48 PM
The yankees have said they won't trade Hughes or Tabada. I would push that to the n'th degree as they are the organizations only two big time prospects.

I look at the Yankees as a trade partner for their ability to eat big contracts. Eric Milton, out of GAB and in Yankee Stadium, could maybe help that staff. They get Milton, send a nothing prospect and a pile O cash our way and things look up for both teams.

If Kriv can't pull that one off(it would be a tough sale) how about this for a big trade? We send Arroyo, Kearns and Milton(entire contract) to NYY for Cano, Hughes and Tabda.

I know it screws us for '06 and Hughes/Tabada aren't ML ready but consider this. You now put Cano at 2B, Phillips to SS and trade FeLo for some more pitching. You have the Milton payflex to rebuild the pen with and two more stud prospects in our farm system.

Obviously a lot depends on what you get back for FeLo and if you think Arroyo can keep up his first half numbers(I don't). So to me it would look like this in '07:

FeLo turns into a #3 starter and a good prospect
Milton turns into a legit '07 pen with the payflex
Arroyo/AK turn into Cano and two great looking prospects plus sweeten the deal enough to unload Milton's money.

It would hurt in '06 but we'd be fine as soon as '07, probably even better for it depending on how Kriv spent the Milton money and who he got in return for FeLo.

Benihana
07-12-2006, 04:03 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, be VERY wary of Yankees prospects. Especially if they're willing to trade them. Just ask Brandon Claussen, Brian Reith, Ed Yarnall, Randy Keisler, Charlie Manning, Drew Henson, D'Angelo Jimenez, and Jackson Melian. And that's just the Reds.

And I'm not interested in trading Arroyo for minor leaguers. Arroyo (at least so far) is what we can only hope any minor leaguer can one day turn into- a servicable ace signed on the cheap.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

KronoRed
07-12-2006, 04:06 PM
Big George hates strikeouts

Marc D
07-12-2006, 04:15 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, be VERY wary of Yankees prospects. Especially if they're willing to trade them. Just ask Brandon Claussen, Brian Reith, Ed Yarnall, Randy Keisler, Charlie Manning, Drew Henson, D'Angelo Jimenez, and Jackson Melian. And that's just the Reds.

And I'm not interested in trading Arroyo for minor leaguers. Arroyo (at least so far) is what we can only hope any minor leaguer can one day turn into- a servicable ace signed on the cheap.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

I don't consider Arroyo an ace so I guess thats where I'd start. I think he's a career #3 starter having an ace-like 1st half of a season. Also if it helps, think that your trading him for Cano and Miltons payflex. You then can say your trading AK for 2 prospects.

As far as fearing Yankee prospects, I do to. At some point however you have to have faith in the GM to know talent when he does/doesn't see it If Kriv is as good as he seems then a trade like this could be absolutely huge for us.

Depending on what he could get for FeLo and how he spent the Milton money we could be a much better ML team and deeper farm system come this time next year.

Benihana
07-12-2006, 05:40 PM
I don't consider Arroyo an ace so I guess thats where I'd start. I think he's a career #3 starter having an ace-like 1st half of a season. Also if it helps, think that your trading him for Cano and Miltons payflex. You then can say your trading AK for 2 prospects.

As far as fearing Yankee prospects, I do to. At some point however you have to have faith in the GM to know talent when he does/doesn't see it If Kriv is as good as he seems then a trade like this could be absolutely huge for us.

Depending on what he could get for FeLo and how he spent the Milton money we could be a much better ML team and deeper farm system come this time next year.

Sorry, but I still don't do the deal. While I wouldn't mind getting Milton off the books, he is only signed through next year. I don't need to give up Arroyo just to free 1+ year of salary, especially not with the more generous regime thats now in charge. I would do Kearns for Cano and Hughes, but nothing less when dealing with the Yanks, given their suspect-prospect history. However they would have less than zero interest in such a deal. Therefore I think you have to look elsewhere when looking for a trading partner.

Jpup
07-12-2006, 05:59 PM
Bailey and Denorfia for Willis.

The_jbh
07-12-2006, 06:20 PM
The yankees have said they won't trade Hughes or Tabada. I would push that to the n'th degree as they are the organizations only two big time prospects.

I look at the Yankees as a trade partner for their ability to eat big contracts. Eric Milton, out of GAB and in Yankee Stadium, could maybe help that staff. They get Milton, send a nothing prospect and a pile O cash our way and things look up for both teams.

If Kriv can't pull that one off(it would be a tough sale) how about this for a big trade? We send Arroyo, Kearns and Milton(entire contract) to NYY for Cano, Hughes and Tabda.

I know it screws us for '06 and Hughes/Tabada aren't ML ready but consider this. You now put Cano at 2B, Phillips to SS and trade FeLo for some more pitching. You have the Milton payflex to rebuild the pen with and two more stud prospects in our farm system.

Obviously a lot depends on what you get back for FeLo and if you think Arroyo can keep up his first half numbers(I don't). So to me it would look like this in '07:

FeLo turns into a #3 starter and a good prospect
Milton turns into a legit '07 pen with the payflex
Arroyo/AK turn into Cano and two great looking prospects plus sweeten the deal enough to unload Milton's money.

It would hurt in '06 but we'd be fine as soon as '07, probably even better for it depending on how Kriv spent the Milton money and who he got in return for FeLo.


1st of all trading Bronson Arroyo is a major step backwards for this organization... even if he is a #3 having an ace 1st half, a #3 is better than everything we got but Harang. He is affordable and he is a position of need... i dont care that he is at the highest value hes gonna have (presumably) we need pitching and u shouldnt trade away good cheap pitching locked up for a few years.

As for milton, I'd be glad to get him off the books but who else pitches?

Arroyo Harang Lizard Mays and Germano? wow thats a wretched rotation, Id rather have milton than Mays...

Marc D
07-12-2006, 06:35 PM
1st of all trading Bronson Arroyo is a major step backwards for this organization... even if he is a #3 having an ace 1st half, a #3 is better than everything we got but Harang. He is affordable and he is a position of need... i dont care that he is at the highest value hes gonna have (presumably) we need pitching and u shouldnt trade away good cheap pitching locked up for a few years.

As for milton, I'd be glad to get him off the books but who else pitches?

Arroyo Harang Lizard Mays and Germano? wow thats a wretched rotation, Id rather have milton than Mays...

My idea was to get a #3 back for FeLo and get the pen fixed with the Milton $$. I don't see where that leaves us worse off than we are now.

KronoRed
07-12-2006, 06:57 PM
Bailey and Denorfia for Willis.
Marlins say call us back with Bruce and Votto

The_jbh
07-12-2006, 08:30 PM
My idea was to get a #3 back for FeLo and get the pen fixed with the Milton $$. I don't see where that leaves us worse off than we are now.


I'm not aware of any quality free agent relievers available so I dunno what money is going to do right now... unless you're all calling it a season... which i hope no1 is but people on this bored definately post that way

Haven't the Bengals given us any hope for baseball? :beerme:

RedLegSuperStar
07-12-2006, 08:34 PM
Willis isn't going anywhere!

Heck they may make a run for the Wild Card next year if the Braves have another season like this year. Those young players are good and with a year under there belt..

alloverjr
07-12-2006, 11:35 PM
Marlins say call us back with Bruce and Votto

WK picks up phone, hits redial then says "OK." ;)

boobhat
07-12-2006, 11:35 PM
what about dealing kearns for a relief pitcher and a good/cant miss sp prospect? i think its about time the reds start playing denoforia

alloverjr
07-12-2006, 11:42 PM
I'm not aware of any quality free agent relievers available so I dunno what money is going to do right now... unless you're all calling it a season... which i hope no1 is but people on this bored definately post that way

Haven't the Bengals given us any hope for baseball? :beerme:


Unless Cast says go all out, money shmoney, then I hope WK does call it a season. I would hold this team together as is (with maybe a few DFA's and AA call-ups mixed in) and deal with your holes during the real Hot Stove time. Of course, if you can deal a Milton, LaRue or Griffey by the deadline for something useful come '07 combined with the freed cash, then I'd move that way. Otherwise, it was a great 60+ games.

BTW, I haven't seen a Bengals game in over 20 years so I can't answer your last question. ;)

KronoRed
07-12-2006, 11:46 PM
WK picks up phone, hits redial then says "OK." ;)
Then the Marlins GM says, and we'll take Wood, and Deno, and EE, and Phillips...and those ribs we hear so much about :devil:

alloverjr
07-13-2006, 12:05 AM
Then the Marlins GM says, and we'll take Wood, and Deno, and EE, and Phillips...and those ribs we hear so much about :devil:

That's where we draw the line. Take those hot dogs with the fake meat on them or no deal. :p:

Heath
07-13-2006, 08:40 AM
what about dealing kearns for a relief pitcher and a good/cant miss sp prospect? i think its about time the reds start playing denoforia

every prospect that is a can't miss.....still can miss now and then.

Krusty
07-13-2006, 09:15 AM
One thing that seems to be certain come August 1 is Willis will still be a Marlin and Hughes will be a Yankee.