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View Full Version : Reds trade Kearns to Washington!



Reverend Doo-Rag
07-13-2006, 04:37 PM
Per WLW

CincyReds2003
07-13-2006, 04:40 PM
For who?

Reverend Doo-Rag
07-13-2006, 04:41 PM
Royce Clayton and others

dabvu2498
07-13-2006, 04:42 PM
Gary Majewski

Ltlabner
07-13-2006, 04:42 PM
Lopez, Kearns and Ryan Wagner to Washington for

Bill Bray
Gary Majewski
Royce Clayton
Brendan Harris
Daryl Thompson

I think those were the names.

goreds2
07-13-2006, 04:43 PM
XM HOMEPLATE said LOPEZ and Wagner were also in the deal.

dabvu2498
07-13-2006, 04:43 PM
Welcome to the show, Chris Denorfia

NJReds
07-13-2006, 04:44 PM
Lopez, Kearns and Ryan Wagner to Washington for

Bill Bray
Gary Majewski
Royce Clayton
Brendan Harris
Daryl Thompson

I think those were the names.

I've heard of Clayton :eek:

and Majewski.

But who are the others???

dabvu2498
07-13-2006, 04:46 PM
2 bullpenners, 2 shortstops and a 20 year old SP who spent the last 2 years at Low A.

RedsMan3203
07-13-2006, 04:46 PM
some body shoot me

cincy09
07-13-2006, 04:48 PM
i want proof

dabvu2498
07-13-2006, 04:48 PM
S.E.G. Dennison reported it on 700. He's from Middletown, that's good enough for me.

goreds2
07-13-2006, 04:49 PM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20060713&content_id=1554997&vkey=pr_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

HBP
07-13-2006, 04:49 PM
Bray is a 2004 1st rnd pick (13 overall)

DropDocK
07-13-2006, 04:49 PM
:eek:

:confused:


When Royce Clayton is the biggest name for two young starters......a joke.

dabvu2498
07-13-2006, 04:51 PM
Daryl Thompson immediately becomes a top 5 pitching prospect in the Reds. Org.

TOBTTReds
07-13-2006, 04:51 PM
more time for Castro!

Johnny Footstool
07-13-2006, 04:52 PM
It's on Reds.com now. No joke.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20060713&content_id=1554997&vkey=pr_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin


Print © 2006 MLB Advanced Media, L.P. All rights reserved.

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Reds get Majewski, Bray, Clayton, Harris, Thompson from Nationals
07/13/2006 3:35 PM ET
MLB.com

CINCINNATI -- The Cincinnati Reds today acquired from the Washington Nationals RHP Gary Majewski, LHP Bill Bray, SS Royce Clayton, IF Brendan Harris and RHP Daryl Thompson in exchange for OF Austin Kearns, SS Felipe Lopez and RHP Ryan Wagner.
Majewski, Clayton and Bray are expected to report to Cincinnati in time for tomorrow's 7:10 p.m. game against the Colorado Rockies. Corresponding roster moves will be announced when they arrive. Harris will report to Class AAA Louisville and Thompson to Sarasota in the Gulf Coast League.

To fill the roster spots of Kearns and Lopez for tonight's game, the Reds have recalled from Louisville OF Chris Denorfia and IF William Bergolla.

Majewski, 26, participated in the World Baseball Classic as a member of Team USA. He has posted a 3.27 ERA with 2 saves in 141 career relief appearances for the Montreal Expos and Nationals. Last season for Washington, Majewski recorded a 2.93 ERA while leading the pitching staff with 79 appearances, a franchise record for a rookie. During the first half of this season he went 3-2 with a 3.58 ERA and begins the second half ranked T5th among all Major League pitchers with 46 games pitched.

Bray, 23, was selected by the Expos with the 13th pick overall of the first round of the 2004 first-year player draft and entered this season already ranked as one of the best prospects in Washington's minor league system. He made his Major League debut this season and has posted a 3.91 ERA in 19 relief appearances. Also this season Bray went 4-1 with a 3.98 ERA and 5 saves in 21 relief appearances at Class AAA New Orleans.

Clayton, a National League All-Star in 1997, entered the 2006 season ranked second among active shortstops in games, starts, innings, total chances, putouts, assists and double plays. In each of those categories he trailed only 10-time Gold Glove Award winner Omar Vizquel. His career fielding percentage of .974 fielding percentage entering this year ranked seventh among all Major League shortstops.

In his career Clayton has a .259 batting average and 223 stolen bases in 1,981 games for the Giants, Cardinals, Rangers, White Sox, Brewers, Rockies, Diamondbacks and Nationals. He has appeared in 13 post-season games. This season for the Nats, Clayton is hitting .269 with 22 doubles and 8 stolen bases in 87 appearances.

Harris, 25, originally was selected by the Chicago White Sox in the fifth round of the 2001 first-year player draft and was sent to the Nationals on July 31, 2004 as part of a 4-team deadline deal that also sent SS Nomar Garciaparra to the Cubs and SS Orlando Cabrera to the Red Sox. This season, he appeared in 17 games for the Nationals and hit .283 with 5 HR and 32 RBI in 59 games for New Orleans.

Thompson, 20, was selected by the Expos in the eighth round of the 2003 first-year player draft and entered this season ranked as Washington's 10th-best minor league prospect. This season for Vermont in the Class A New York-Penn League he went 0-1 with a 6.75 ERA in 4 starts.

Kearns, 26, this season for the Reds hit .274 with 16 HR and 50 RBI in 87 appearances.

Lopez, 26, during the season's first half hit .268 with 9 HR and 30 RBI in 85 games.

Wagner, 23, has spent the entire season in the minor leagues at Louisville, where he has posted a 6.34 ERA in 35 relief appearances.

Denorfia last night played for the International League in the Triple-A All-Star Game in Toledo and went 1-for-3 with 2 runs scored. This season he hit .347 with 14 stolen bases in 70 games for Louisville and has appeared in 7 games during 2 stints with the Reds (4/3-4/8, 5/4-5/10). He was the organization's Minor League Player of the Month for April. Bergolla is hitting .250 with 7 steals in 73 games for the Bats.

This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.



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Reds Homepage | MLB.com

cincy09
07-13-2006, 04:54 PM
i want proof
nevermind...........i want to crawl into a hole and die

RedsManRick
07-13-2006, 04:54 PM
I have no problems trade those guys. But only getting 1 solid reliever, 2 prospects, and 2 no-hit middle infeilders (did we really need more!?). Yikes. :(

Z-Fly
07-13-2006, 04:54 PM
uh... ok. In wayne we trust?

DropDocK
07-13-2006, 04:54 PM
I still can't stand the thought of making this deal with Bowden.

PTI (pti)
07-13-2006, 04:54 PM
:eek:


I don't like it. Hometown kid, potential .300, 30 homer, 100-rbi guy for that??


I've know Austin since he was in 1st grade. :cry:

captainmorgan07
07-13-2006, 04:54 PM
i wouldn't jump off the boat on this trade yet majewski i sa great bullpen guy felipe had fallen off from last year and kearns was approaching dunn in strikeouts couldn't get a clutch hit this prolly lets freel have afulltime job in right now that everybody always wants him to play everyday ede can play 3rd everyday now

dabvu2498
07-13-2006, 04:56 PM
Welcome Royce Clayton, your new leadoff hitter, and his .313 career OBP.

dabvu2498
07-13-2006, 04:57 PM
Steve Stewart's saying it's a "win now" trade. He's not bright, is he?

GridironGrace
07-13-2006, 04:58 PM
I understand Kearns. and we HAD To deal someone..

But LOPEZ?????????? you've got to be kidding.

KoryMac5
07-13-2006, 04:58 PM
This trade is being ripped to shreds. My opinion is Krivs dealt Lopez and Kearns while their stock was high. Getting Majewski and Bray help the pen from the start. Let's face it we had no relief in sight coming from anywhere. Harris can play both second and short and is a great prospect. This trade also allows us to bring Deno up and get Freel in the lineup more. I'm gonna be one of the few who likes this trade and I stand by my opinion.

UC_Ken
07-13-2006, 04:59 PM
when you trade the two everyday major league players in the deal that is the opposite of a win now trade.

I've loved WK since he was hired but I'm REALLY ANGRY now. Some of these guys better be getting spun into another deal.

Slyder
07-13-2006, 05:00 PM
Lineup Now:
2b Freel
ss Phillips
lf Dunn
cf Griffey
3b Ed E
1b Hatteberg/Aurila
rf Denorfia
Ca (Insert Catcher here)
???

Lets give this deal time it sucks we trade 2 of the bigger chips the reds had in one deal. Im very uneasy about this deal, just seems like a lot to give up. Couldnt we have saved some and gone to the cubs for one of their guys?

jesusfan
07-13-2006, 05:01 PM
what does our lineup look like now?

1.Freel
2.Dunn
3.Griffey
4.Encarnacion
5.Hatteberg
6.Phillips
7.Denorfia
8.Ross/LaRue
9.Pitcher

Well, our bullpen is better with Majewski, and Bray which kicks Merker, and Weathers to the curb... oh well, we'll see... I like Denorfia though!

cincy jacket
07-13-2006, 05:04 PM
Meet your new Cincinnati Reds starting infield on a getaway sunday:
1st Rich Aurilla
2nd Royce Clayton
SS William Bergolla
3rd Juan Castro

KoryMac5
07-13-2006, 05:05 PM
What one website says about Bray

There is not a more promising lefty arm in the Nationals' farm system than Bill Bray. With a true power arm coming out of the bullpen, Bray could finish off his meteoric rise through the organization by taking a spot on the Nationals big league roster in 2006.

six foot three lefty who throws gas out of the pen whats not to like

dabvu2498
07-13-2006, 05:05 PM
I wouldn't be surprised with this lineup:

Clayton SS
Phillips 2B
Griffey CF
Dunn LF
Hatteberg 1B
EE 3B
Deno RF
Catcher C

All the more reason for me to continue my slow transition to Red Sox fan.

tsj017
07-13-2006, 05:06 PM
We desperately needed bullpen help. On paper, at least, that's what we got. We'll see how it works out.

I suspect we're not finished dealing yet.

Also, Leather-Pants was responsible for bringing Kearns, Lopez and Wagner here. Now he's taken them with him to Washington. That's kind of odd. Anyway, it's not like we were winning with them.

redsmetz
07-13-2006, 05:06 PM
This trade is being ripped to shreds. My opinion is Krivs dealt Lopez and Kearns while their stock was high. Getting Majewski and Bray help the pen from the start. Let's face it we had no relief in sight coming from anywhere. Harris can play both second and short and is a great prospect. This trade also allows us to bring Deno up and get Freel in the lineup more. I'm gonna be one of the few who likes this trade and I stand by my opinion.

I'm not sure I'm liking it, but I'm more puzzled by it. I'm think there's another shoe to drop, but then again, we've said that before. I'll hang with Wayne on it, but again, it's puzzling.

I agree with those who say Clayton's just a stopgap for this year. He's almost as old as Julio Franco, isn't he?

redsmetz
07-13-2006, 05:06 PM
This trade is being ripped to shreds. My opinion is Krivs dealt Lopez and Kearns while their stock was high. Getting Majewski and Bray help the pen from the start. Let's face it we had no relief in sight coming from anywhere. Harris can play both second and short and is a great prospect. This trade also allows us to bring Deno up and get Freel in the lineup more. I'm gonna be one of the few who likes this trade and I stand by my opinion.

I'm not sure I'm liking it, but I'm more puzzled by it. I'm think there's another shoe to drop, but then again, we've said that before. I'll hang with Wayne on it, but again, it's puzzling.

I agree with those who say Clayton's just a stopgap for this year. He's almost as old as Julio Franco, isn't he?

flynn78
07-13-2006, 05:06 PM
I have to say that all of the good karma with Reds fans Wayne Krivsky has bought with Arroyo and Phillips is out the window. The pickup of Joe Mays and trading Kearns, Lopez, and Wagner for what appears to be a little bullpen help, a struggler prospect in A-ball, an underachieving IF, and Royce "rally killer" Clayton is reprehensible. Wayne has a long way to go to get any respect from me and it doesn't help that he got fleeced by JIM BOWDEN. I feel physically sick.

Jharb74
07-13-2006, 05:51 PM
If the Reds don't win the WS, this will be a bad move! Good thing we kept our 3 catchers!!!

EKURed
07-13-2006, 05:51 PM
Shock and devastation. This is absolutely a white flag raiser...

dabvu2498
07-13-2006, 05:52 PM
This trade cause RZ to crash... foreshadowing???

EKURed
07-13-2006, 06:05 PM
The Reds have LOTS of salary wiggle room now. I hesitate to even say this, but it looks to me like they will have to go get a bat to stay in this now.

Johnny Footstool
07-13-2006, 06:05 PM
Bullpen help is important, but no so important that you give up major commodities like Lopez and Kearns to acquire it. I could see trading *one* of them for the likes of Scot Shields or Justin Duscherer, but not mid-grade talent like Majewski. That's like spending $120 on a pair of Levis.

Razor Shines
07-13-2006, 06:09 PM
I'm hoping that another deal is coming, perhaps a prospect we just got is going to someone else.

jimbo
07-13-2006, 06:10 PM
This trade is being ripped to shreds. My opinion is Krivs dealt Lopez and Kearns while their stock was high. Getting Majewski and Bray help the pen from the start. Let's face it we had no relief in sight coming from anywhere. Harris can play both second and short and is a great prospect. This trade also allows us to bring Deno up and get Freel in the lineup more. I'm gonna be one of the few who likes this trade and I stand by my opinion.

I agree totally. I think this trade not only improves this team immediately, it also shores up the future. Denorfia fills in nicely in RF and we now have two nice young relievers who are putting up good numbers. The left side of the infield improves devensively. I had grown tired of Lopez and his bonehead defense and loafing to first. I'm glad the Reds didn't make a big trade that involved half a season rent-a-players with big names and contracts. I like this trade a lot.

Reds4Life
07-13-2006, 06:12 PM
Bullpen help is important, but no so important that you give up major commodities like Lopez and Kearns to acquire it. I could see trading *one* of them for the likes of Scot Shields or Justin Duscherer, but not mid-grade talent like Majewski. That's like spending $120 on a pair of Levis.

With you 100%. I'm really hoping another, bigger, deal is in the works, if this is our "win now" move than we are screwed. Bowden is probably laughing himself to death right now.

The downside is we just fired 2 bullets for mediocrity, when we really donít have ammo to be wasting. The only thing we really have left to move is Dunn, or perhaps Griffey if but then we'd probably have to pay part of his salary.

Aceking
07-13-2006, 06:14 PM
I'm amazed at the ability that fans have of overvaluing their players. We got what we could get. The A's have to be willing to trade us Rich Harden for Austin Kearns before we can do so (a reference to past threads calling for it).

Reds fans went in to panic mode when we traded Wily Mo Pena. A lot of people said we got screwed. Meanwhile, fans in Boston were saying "Who is the heck is Wily Mo Pena?"

Every hitter on this team is replaceable. Every single one. I will trust Krivsky, and I will never complain when we trade hitters for pitchers.

(Though Clayton had to have been a throw away portion of that trade)

bucknutdet
07-13-2006, 06:16 PM
Unless there is more to this, I don't like it. Too much for too little.

RedsHawt
07-13-2006, 06:16 PM
This trade really blows. the only bright spot is that it opens RF for Denorfia.

Caveman Techie
07-13-2006, 06:19 PM
Put me in the I like it column. We get immediate help for the bullpen (despreately needed), Denoforia gets called up, and create some wiggle room in the payroll to pick up someone else all while getting rid of a Boras client.

I like it.

Sell high, means alot of people won't like it.

RedsHawt
07-13-2006, 06:23 PM
Welcome Royce Clayton, your new leadoff hitter, and his .313 career OBP.
I'll jump off a cliff if he's leading off.

SeeinRed
07-13-2006, 06:25 PM
I'm amazed at the ability that fans have of overvaluing their players. We got what we could get. The A's have to be willing to trade us Rich Harden for Austin Kearns before we can do so (a reference to past threads calling for it).

Reds fans went in to panic mode when we traded Wily Mo Pena. A lot of people said we got screwed. Meanwhile, fans in Boston were saying "Who is the heck is Wily Mo Pena?"

Every hitter on this team is replaceable. Every single one. I will trust Krivsky, and I will never complain when we trade hitters for pitchers.

(Though Clayton had to have been a throw away portion of that trade)


Couldn't agree more. Being so close to a team tends to cause a person to overvalue players on that team. Kearns really hasn't proven himself at the major league level yet. Just last year he was doing so poorly that he was sent down to the minors. A good half of a season is no where near proving himself. Felipe has had a solid year, and a mediocre half this year. He has shown some true potential, but he hasn't really proven himself to be anything more than an avereage SS really. Don't get me wrong, Kearns and Lopez are solid players and used to be the future of this team, but there is plenty of outfield talent in the minors. (see Bruce and Deno.) SS is a little more tricky I admidt, but I wouldn't mind seeing Brandon Philips take a shot at it. He has the range, but I'm not really sure about the arm. He has also shown to be more productive offensively than Lopez this year. As always, you have to give a trade time to work itself out. I'll be watching with my fingers crossed.

Rob Dicken
07-13-2006, 06:27 PM
I would have to say that this is going to mean more playing time for Freel. NOT Denorfia.

And we'll have better luck in the line-up if Aurilia starts at shortstop everyday. Royce Clayton is not a producer.

tomred
07-13-2006, 06:28 PM
Ifeel like we should give it a break I do not know about it but I for one got tired of Lopez making errors and looking like he did not care

SeeinRed
07-13-2006, 06:28 PM
Sell high, means alot of people won't like it.


Great point. Kinda like what the Cards have done in the past along with Minnesota, which are oddly enough the teams that the Reds have set out to emulate. This team really is changing. Lets hope they can see the same success as the Cards.

terminator
07-13-2006, 06:29 PM
I don't like the value received for value given, but I like what it does for the team. As a team, we don't give up much by having Clayton (or later Phillips) at short instead of Lopez (much better defense, lighter hitting). As a team, we're (hopefully) about the same with Denorfia and Freel playing in the outfield in lieu of Kearns. As a team, our bullpen is clearly much better. Wagner was a total non-factor here and the other two prospects might pan out.

One thing I don't like though about the Clayton part of the deal is that he seems rather similar to Womack (old, similar career averages) who we DFA'd. Maybe we should have just held onto Womack?

Anyway, on the whole, I think it gives us a better chance to win this year. I don't think we have any marketable outfielders left to move though now since we need Dunn, Griffey, Denorfia and Freel. Any further trades will need to be one of our catchers or veteran infielders (Clayton or Aurilia).

spaethc
07-13-2006, 06:29 PM
I dont like it, but then again I didnt like the Pena-Arroyo trade either so who knows. I agree with the others that there has to be another trade in the works. Narron has to be pumped though, he now has two mediocre infielders (Clayton & Aurrilia) who havent been good since the 90's! Why wouldnt I be suprised if he starts Aurrilia and Clayton instead of EE?!?!?!

Team Clark
07-13-2006, 06:30 PM
I'm amazed at the ability that fans have of overvaluing their players. We got what we could get. The A's have to be willing to trade us Rich Harden for Austin Kearns before we can do so (a reference to past threads calling for it).

Reds fans went in to panic mode when we traded Wily Mo Pena. A lot of people said we got screwed. Meanwhile, fans in Boston were saying "Who is the heck is Wily Mo Pena?"

Every hitter on this team is replaceable. Every single one. I will trust Krivsky, and I will never complain when we trade hitters for pitchers.

(Though Clayton had to have been a throw away portion of that trade)

I agree. This is a VERY good move by Wayne. This move goes beyond on the field performance. Great job Krivsky.

Cigar2
07-13-2006, 06:31 PM
I'm SHOCKED :shocked: I tell You SHOCKED!!!

CincyFalcon
07-13-2006, 06:35 PM
Personally I love the trade. It addresses two needs pitching and defense.

1. Pitching. The Reds get two good young arms (26 and 23) that can help immediately.

2. Defense. Lopez has been a defensive liability and Kearns range is below average(but has a cannon)

I think the Reds gave away two pieces of Bowden's "winning plan" and made themselves better. Lopez was a product of GABP, watch what he does in RFK, and I do not see Kearns ever developing into more than an average outfielder(slow bat, swings at bad pitches)

Overall another A plus deal for Wayne!!!

lucky bugle boy
07-13-2006, 06:36 PM
I would have to say that this is going to mean more playing time for Freel. NOT Denorfia.



I have to disagree. They wouldn't call up Denorfia to sit the bench; they've said and shown that many times. The only way this doesn't mean that Deno is your starting right fielder is if he is only called up until the other guys get here. As none of them are OFs, I don't think that is the case.

wojo1025
07-13-2006, 06:36 PM
I am on the Agree side of this trade. Kearns and Lopez have potential, granted, but that only gets you so far. I have not been impressed @ all with Lopez this year and if I remember, he signed with an agent that would make it nearly impossible for us to sign him when he becomes a free agent. Kearns is a nice player, but the only thing I will miss out of him is his cannon from RF. Wagner needs a change to have any chance of making it in the majors, he had no shot here for whatever reason.

I think Maj could step in right now and be our closer. We have added Maj, "Everyday" Eddie and this Bray kid (who I keep reading nice things about) to a bullpen that needed a lot of help. Now hopefully we get rid of Weathers and possibly Merker for something, ANYTHING! And it improves out INF defense.

osuceltic
07-13-2006, 06:38 PM
A few things:

-- Krivsky said "I care about now." I know some don't like that, but I do. You have to try to win. You can keep waiting and hoping a "better" offer comes around, but seasons just keep passing you by. Krivsky isn't letting this season pass him by. He understands you play the game to win.

-- This was inevitable. Bullpen arms that aren't closers aren't sexy. Yet that was this team's greatest need. They got two that improve the bullpen dramatically, but they're not as sexy as a right fielder. But they can have a huge impact. Remember the bullpen factor in 1990 (no, I'm not comparing these guys to those guys)?

-- Everyone is worrying too much about Royce Clayton. He's the shortstop this season. He's good defensively. You HAVE to have good defense at that position. Felipe wasn't cutting it. Clayton will solidify that spot until they address it next season with Phillips or someone else.

-- The keys are Denorfia and Freel. They have to give them some production to offset Kearns' departure. They don't have to be Kearns -- neither of them is that kind of player. They just have to give them some production in the way they do it.

-- Everyone overrates our players. Look at Kearns compared to other corne outfielders. He's another guy. Lopez had a great year offensively last year, but he's a terrible defensive shortstop and he's seeing a significant dropoff offensively this season. In fact, that dropoff started the second half of last season.

-- Anyone who has anything bad to say about Wayne Krivsky needs a dose of perspective. This could turn out to be a lousy trade, but it doesn't change what Krivsky has accomplished to this point. People keep complaining about the moves he makes, they keep getting proven wrong, yet they don't hesitate to complain about the next move. You'd think they'd learn to give him the benefit of the doubt.

-- I can't believe anyone is surprised by the team Krivsky is trying to put together. The Twins are the model. If you're surprised when he values defense and pitching, you just haven't been paying attention. The guy has a philosophy and he believes in it. It may be different than your philosophy, but the guy has a plan. I happen to agree with the direction he's going. He also values playing hard. That's a good thing, all sarcastic "scrappy" replies notwithstanding.

Johnny Footstool
07-13-2006, 06:39 PM
I'm amazed at the ability that fans have of overvaluing their players. We got what we could get. The A's have to be willing to trade us Rich Harden for Austin Kearns before we can do so (a reference to past threads calling for it).

Reds fans went in to panic mode when we traded Wily Mo Pena. A lot of people said we got screwed. Meanwhile, fans in Boston were saying "Who is the heck is Wily Mo Pena?"

Every hitter on this team is replaceable. Every single one. I will trust Krivsky, and I will never complain when we trade hitters for pitchers.

(Though Clayton had to have been a throw away portion of that trade)

Conversely, I'm amazed at the ability some fans have of undervaluing their own players. Lopez was an All-Star just last season. Kearns has been highly regarded (and coveted) by many organizations, including the Cardinals, Cubs, and Royals to name a few.

Of all qualifying shortstops in MLB, Lopez is tied for 10th in OPS this season. Of all qualifying RFs in MLB, Kearns ranks 10th in OPS. Expand that to include all qualifying outfielders, and Kearns ranks 28th in OPS.

Translation: they're good.

Kearns and Lopez would be upgrades for probably 20 of the 30 major league teams, and yet some people choose to focus on their faults and ignore their talent.

I guess it cuts both ways, huh?

Jim
07-13-2006, 06:40 PM
This is a great trade for the Reds! Two overpriced (at least soon to be), yet expendable players for desperately needed relief help, and two good prospects. Deno gets his shot and our surplus of MI get to show their stuff. Next step is to trade a catcher. Heck, we can even package the catcher with Clayton... ;)

lucky bugle boy
07-13-2006, 06:41 PM
I have not been impressed @ all with Lopez this year and if I remember, he signed with an agent that would make it nearly impossible for us to sign him when he becomes a free agent.


I agree. I loved Lopez last year, but hasn't done anything like it before or since. And as I recall, he had a bad second half too. IMO, Lopez had one great half a season, and that's what many of us like to remember about Lopez, especially considering this deal. And you are correct about the agent, Boras. That made me nervous about deals with him in the future.

Rob Dicken
07-13-2006, 06:42 PM
I have to disagree. They wouldn't call up Denorfia to sit the bench; they've said and shown that many times. The only way this doesn't mean that Deno is your starting right fielder is if he is only called up until the other guys get here. As none of them are OFs, I don't think that is the case.

I just don't see a guy that has been in Triple A the whole season, starting over someone with nearly a .300 average, speed, and fielding ability unlike any other Red in the outfield. I just see Freel being the lead-off hitter the rest of the season, unless he gets injured..

But hey, that's just me.

spaethc
07-13-2006, 06:44 PM
I am not against the trading of Lopez and Kearns, I just assumed we could get better players than we did. Although I am a little upset, I assume that Wayne knows what he is doing, he hasnt really let us down yet.

EKURed
07-13-2006, 06:46 PM
The talk of Willis and Tejada is more than laughable now...

Wyatt Earp
07-13-2006, 06:53 PM
I heard somewhere about 3 weeks ago that the bullpen had blown 12 leads in the late innings.If the reds had hung on to half of those they could be in first place.So i will give give this trade time to work it's course and comment on it later.

dunner13
07-13-2006, 06:54 PM
Im sure there is another trade coming, considering that every GM in baseball is calling Wayne right now offering there over the hill veterans for our young players. We need another starter so maybe dunn for jose lima would be a good deal. Really though I think we basically got two good young relievers for kearns. I can live with that, i think. Then lopez basically sucks this year. The only thing he has done is steal bases. He hasnt hit very well and he cant catch anything. Clayton is horrible as well and he has no range at all but at least if he can actually get to the ball he will field it fine. Truthfully he will probably put up just as good offensive numbers as lopez does the rest of the year. And we got a young IF who is a poor mans version of freel, which is really scary and what sounds like a pretty good pitching prospect. So although I think we should have gotten alot more for kearns and lopez we did fix our bullpen problem and now we get to see what Deno can do. Im not excited about this trade but I can live with it, i think.

lucky bugle boy
07-13-2006, 06:56 PM
I just don't see a guy that has been in Triple A the whole season, starting over someone with nearly a .300 average, speed, and fielding ability unlike any other Red in the outfield. I just see Freel being the lead-off hitter the rest of the season, unless he gets injured..

But hey, that's just me.

Narron doesn't like to play Freel every day. And, Freel will play all over the place. Freel needs to rest, as we witnessed earlier in the season when he subbed for Griffey in center for a prolonged DL stint.

lucky bugle boy
07-13-2006, 06:58 PM
I am not against the trading of Lopez and Kearns, I just assumed we could get better players than we did. Although I am a little upset, I assume that Wayne knows what he is doing, he hasnt really let us down yet.

I feel exactly the same way. However, after some of Krivsky's coups this season (Phillips, Ross, Arroyo) I'm hopeful. I think he may feel in Harris he has his next Phillips, someone that will surprise people as a solid player. The big question is who will be in the starting lineup tomorrow night?

GriffeyFan
07-13-2006, 07:14 PM
Both Wayne K. and Narron both said they thought Denorfia was ready and that it is "his time." I think he will be given every chance to be the everyday RF.

I don't know how I feel about this trade. I think Wayne has the right idea but I think the trio could've fetched more.

I'll give it a chance. The bullpen has three new arms in less than a week but now I'm kind of concerned about the offense.


TEAM CLARK:
The guys on 700 WLW were talking about that Kearns was not well-liked in the clubhouse. Can you elaborate on that?

Handofdeath
07-13-2006, 07:15 PM
What did the Reds need more than anything else? Relievers. I heard some guy like Olney or some other jabronie talking on ESPN radio about how relief pitchers were so hard to come by a couple of weeks ago. Krivsky got two and he got two good ones. I like this trade.

HBP
07-13-2006, 07:16 PM
I initially didn't like the Pena trade like most and we saw how that turned out. I initially don't like getting rid of Kearns now either because I feel we could've gotten a little more out of him and Felipe. But this undoubtedly does help the god-awful bullpen and will help all the pitchers by having a better IF defense (whether Kearns D and arm can be replaced is a big ?).

I'm also very interested to see what Kearns and Felipe's numbers do when they start playing half their games at RFK. IMO Lopez's stats may have just peaked last year.

HBP
07-13-2006, 07:19 PM
TEAM CLARK:
The guys on 700 WLW were talking about that Kearns was not well-liked in the clubhouse. Can you elaborate on that?

Not TC, but I'm sure that attitude he had last year didn't sit well with some. But he did respond well after that after coming back up from AAA.

NastyBoy
07-13-2006, 07:21 PM
Personally I love the trade. It addresses two needs pitching and defense.

1. Pitching. The Reds get two good young arms (26 and 23) that can help immediately.

2. Defense. Lopez has been a defensive liability and Kearns range is below average(but has a cannon)

I agree 100%. I will take a 23 y/o and 26 y/o pitchers over the retreads OB signed last off season. Majewski is a major upgrade IMO for the bullpen. Defense improved at SS, and maybe next year or later this season we see BP as SS. Deno gets his shot at the big show, I don't know if his arm is as good as Kearns, but it is supposed to be pretty good, so I think we lose very little defensively in the outfield. Will this be enough to earn a playoff spot time will tell.

What I like the best is the timing of the trade. Rather than wait for the trade deadline, you get the players services for an addition 2 1/2 weeks which could be a major difference in the NL Central and the Wild Card race.

lucky bugle boy
07-13-2006, 07:22 PM
I initially didn't like the Pena trade like most and we saw how that turned out. I initially don't like getting rid of Kearns now either because I feel we could've gotten a little more out of him and Felipe. But this undoubtedly does help the god-awful bullpen and will help all the pitchers by having a better IF defense (whether Kearns D and arm can be replaced is a big ?).

I'm also very interested to see what Kearns and Felipe's numbers do when they start playing half their games at RFK. IMO Lopez's stats may have just peaked last year.

Yep, agree, agree, agree

Just a question for any or all...it seems that most of what I've heard about Deno, his D is pretty darn good. How would you stack him up to Kearns, defensively? A push, or edge to Kearns' D?

NastyBoy
07-13-2006, 07:25 PM
Yep, agree, agree, agree

Just a question for any or all...it seems that most of what I've heard about Deno, his D is pretty darn good. How would you stack him up to Kearns, defensively? A push, or edge to Kearns' D?

As I stated in my post, I think we will not lose anything defensively. His arm was ranked best in reds MiLB a couple of years ago. Not sure if Bruce now holds that ranking.

lucky bugle boy
07-13-2006, 07:27 PM
As I stated in my post, I think we will not lose anything defensively. His arm was ranked best in reds MiLB a couple of years ago. Not sure if Bruce now holds that ranking.
Thanks!! Your post was up after I'd started mine, evidently!

major harris
07-13-2006, 07:27 PM
We just got better.


Adios, Kearns.:beerme: :beerme:

nineworldseries
07-13-2006, 07:29 PM
Denorfia is leading off tonight... Can't wait to watch him in action live!

I absolutely love this trade.

cincyinco
07-13-2006, 07:30 PM
Anyone think Phillips will move over to SS and Freel plays every day at 2b with Clayton giving either Phillips or Freel a rest every so often? Denorfia plays everyday in RF? If that kind of thing happens, I can live with it. I am a big fan of Bray, Thompson seems intriguing, and Harris is a solid prospect.

Anyone also think that getting Kearns and Lopez future salary off the books is a good thing? Everyone here should know that both players were about to get very expensive had we kept them. This gives us some financial flexability to make some moves, either before the trade deadline or by bringing in some bigger name free agents in the offseason.

I am mostly baffled over this trade. I would have thought these guys could fetch more, like a lot of folks here. And I pride myself on not being a huge homer and overvaluing guys. But I think theres big philosphical reasons for doing this as well.

1) we want to win, and win NOW.
2) it helps the achelis heel of this team NOW - the bullpen.
3) it immedietly improves the defense NOW - both on the left side of the infield and in the outfield.
4) gives us payroll flexability for the future(Lopez is a boras client, Kearns likely would have gotten a handful of millions in arbitration).

Look, I loved Kearns - he was probably my favorite Red aside from Dunn. I also liked Lopez a lot, I thought he had a ton of potential. Its hard to see some of your favorites go, especially in the same deal.. but I think theres sound reasoning behind the move. If we win, everyone is going to be REAL happy. And if we dont make it? Well, it will be dissapointing, but at least I'll know we didn't sit idly by, ala Dan O'Brien, with our collective thumbs up our collective butts doing nothing to improve our chances of making the playoffs.

Veni, Vidi, Vici....

ikkirus
07-13-2006, 07:34 PM
Lopez has hurt us more with his D this year than helped with his O. I don't see that getting any better. Kearns has played fairly....but not up to his perceived potential. And he has had five seasons to show that potential. It just hasn't happened. We already have enough strikeouts in the lineup with Dunn. Kearns doesn't plate runs like he should...although he may be more likely to drive the ball in the gap with a runner in scoring position.

If we stocked up our bullpen with this move...and can keep these guys for a couple years (given they perform), I like this move.

I however loath Royce Clayton. But, I can put up with him for the rest of this year if I have to. He wears a better glove than FeLo does. That can only help for the playoff run....if there is one.

lucky bugle boy
07-13-2006, 07:35 PM
Anyone think Phillips will move over to SS and Freel plays every day at 2b with Clayton giving either Phillips or Freel a rest every so often? Denorfia plays everyday in RF? If that kind of thing happens, I can live with it. [/B]

I initially thought that BP to Short, Harris at 2nd, but then would be really puzzled about the reason for getting Clayton. Your scenario makes sense, except that gives us an over-abundance of backup IFs, Clayton, Castro, Aurilia, Bergolla (though he is probably sent down after tonight, I assume). Probably will be BP at 2nd, Clayton at short for this year, with Aurilia, Freel, and Castro still backing up the infield positions.

jfar23
07-13-2006, 07:40 PM
I don't mind losing Kearns, its not that hard to replace an OFer, but losing Lopez stings. He was young and whether or not last year was a fluke I'd take the chance of keeping him around. It still seems strange that this is all we could get for both of them. Wagner is no loss at all. If he gets it so be it.

My only real problem is Royce Clayton and if he is the starting shortstop now. If he is thats just stupid.

bleedsred
07-13-2006, 07:41 PM
Can Harris play 3b? Could EE be on the move in another package?

KronoRed
07-13-2006, 07:42 PM
Harris is not a prospect, he's about to be 26 and has struggled at AAA before, he's bench fodder at best, moving EE to open a spot for him would be terrible.

pedro
07-13-2006, 07:42 PM
Can Harris play 3b? Could EE be on the move in another package?

Yes, Harris can play 3B, SS and 2B. The Reds aren't trading EE though.

corkedbat
07-13-2006, 07:47 PM
Made some notes about my impressionson the trade while I was unable to get into the site.

1. They said it wasn't about money. I think that is only partially true. I don't think it was a salalry by ant means and I think they go value in return, but I think it was about payflex.

I beleive they determined to trade both Kearns and Lopez because, while they're both talented players, they weren't going to invest the $$$ that would be necessary in terms of arbitration payoffs and Free Agency. I think they can get by with Dunn, Griffey, Deno and maybe a middling FA over the next couple of years until the next wave of young OFs matures.

With Lopez, I think you saw a career year last year from Felipe and this year is more the norm for him, but I think he'll still be asking for top $$$ come arb/FA. I think this opens the door for the eventual move to SS. Coincidentally, I think the first have was a career for Phillips at the plate too and his norms will probably be about the same as Lopez with better defense.

I think this puts a lot of weight on Deno's shoulders. Its one thing to be the under-rated OF prospect with low expectations, another to come to the show replacing a popular proven OF with big expectations on you. I'm fairly optomistic that Deno's up to it.

I'm not a huge Clayton fan, but he does solidify the D while giving up Offense (guess you coulda said that about Castro).

I think Bray and Magic are solid additions in the bullpen and adding good young pitching is always a good thing. The real key to the value of obtaining them may be able how consistent EzE can be in the closer's role (and I'mm really doubtful about that).

I think everyone had Wagner figured out and he didn't seem to be having much luck adjusting. A change of scenery for him was really in order and I think if you just look at it as a wagner ffor Thompson, we probably come out a bit ahead there. I assume that Harris has a fairly decent upside, but don't know much about him.

I think the infield defense and the bullpen got a big boost in this deal. Kearns for Deno probably was a slight drop and I think the offense too a hit, but potentially more negligible than at first blush and I think the lineup can absorb it.

I think the true worth of this trade may not be known until the offseason when we see how agreesive the FO is in the FA market and if they use the arb dollars they saved today in addressing other needs on the roster. I think the main hit this club takes (at least short-term) is in the morale.

All-in-all, I'm a little disappointed in the deal. I would've expected that giving up an above-average young SS and OF would net you more than setup men and a journeyman SS, but pitching's at a premium. I think that Krivisky can turn this deal into a plus, but only if he builds on it between now and the start of next season. Looking at it on its own, it's a bit of a downer.

Also, I don't think this is the end of the dealing. I'm willing to bet that at least two or three from among Griffey, EdE, LaRue, Valentin, Aurillia and Freel will not be here come Aug. 1. Who, depends on how daring the Krivster is.

lucky bugle boy
07-13-2006, 07:49 PM
Can Harris play 3b? Could EE be on the move in another package?
Yeah, I agree with Krono, not going to happen. But to answer your first question, he'd played some third in the past.

tomred
07-13-2006, 07:50 PM
Question who is off the pitching staff when the new pitchers report

KronoRed
07-13-2006, 07:52 PM
Question who is off the pitching staff when the new pitchers report
Weathers, Yan, Standbridge, Mercker that order IMO

CincyReds2003
07-13-2006, 07:52 PM
Question who is off the pitching staff when the new pitchers report


I'm wondering if its Sgt Tackleberry(David Weathers)

bleedsred
07-13-2006, 07:56 PM
How is Harris with the leather? Where does Olmedo fit now?

EKURed
07-13-2006, 07:59 PM
The first redeeming domino to fall from this trade will be the designation of "Stormy" Weathers..

nineworldseries
07-13-2006, 08:02 PM
Narron and Krivsky both vehemently denied moving Phillips to SS on WLW today. I don't think that is in the cards this year.

lucky bugle boy
07-13-2006, 08:03 PM
Weathers, Yan, Standbridge, Mercker that order IMO
Yan? You sure? He hasn't been here long enough surely for them to sour that much on him. 1-0, 3.60 with a save? I don't think he is one of our biggest worries. Now, Standridge, yes, at least off the 25-man. Weathers Mercker, probably, and for heavens sake, Mays. We don't need the 5th starter for awhile, and hopefully Claussen back by then. Unless another move for a SP is brewing...

Handofdeath
07-13-2006, 08:07 PM
How is Harris with the leather? Where does Olmedo fit now?

From what I've read pretty good.

Petitt33
07-13-2006, 08:21 PM
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/baseball/mlb/07/13/reds.nationals.ap/t1_trade.jpg

Found that at Sports Illustrated

BoilerBC11
07-13-2006, 08:27 PM
wow they dont look to happy...

red-in-la
07-13-2006, 08:30 PM
What stinks about this is that you should be able to assemble a bullpen in Spring Training......so I consider it a failure that WK had to give up a ton of talent in mid-season just to shore up a weakness like this.

However, I will tell you that I was really pissed at a former GM for trading Lee May.....seems like later on....that one worked out pretty well.....so I will wait to see on this one.

goreds2
07-13-2006, 08:30 PM
How is Harris with the leather? Where does Olmedo fit now?

On July 2, I saw Olmedo play against the Columbus Clippers. He looked very good.

Maybe Clayton finishes out the year with Olmedo transitioning into next season.

lucky bugle boy
07-13-2006, 08:40 PM
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/baseball/mlb/07/13/reds.nationals.ap/t1_trade.jpg



That should get it's own 'Caption this' thread

steig
07-13-2006, 09:59 PM
At this point i'm disappointed with the trade and I don't think I will change my mind anytime soon. I would consider this a good trade IF I thought the reds were capable of winning the world series this year...but I don't. The reds may be able to contend in the division with the new bullpen help and defensive help, they may possibly be able to contend for the league championship. However, i don't think the reds could beat the white sox, red sox, or yankees in a 7 game series. And in my book second place is just the first loser. It's not that I mind trading Kearns and Lopez but the Reds should have gone after a strong, young starter...not bullpen arms. Bullpen help is difficult to come by in the middle of the season especially when so many teams are still in contention. Compared to the off season where good bullpen arms can be assembled for 1 - 2 million each. I view this a caving into the part time fans desire for a winner and managements aim to show they are commited to winning when in reality they could have helped the team so much more by admitting that this team wasn't championship material.
I love the reds and I want them to win but I want to see a world series championship again. I don't fondly remember 1995 but I will always remember the 1990 team. Bowden made his team better and showed why he is still a better GM than WV, imo.

Jpup
07-13-2006, 10:00 PM
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/baseball/mlb/07/13/reds.nationals.ap/t1_trade.jpg

Found that at Sports Illustrated

"guess we better head to Wilson leather."

:(

sad to see them go.

redsfanfalcon
07-13-2006, 10:03 PM
[QUOTE=red-in-la]What stinks about this is that you should be able to assemble a bullpen in Spring Training......so I consider it a failure that WK had to give up a ton of talent in mid-season just to shore up a weakness like this.
QUOTE]

I understand your frustration, but in Wayne's defense, he didn't get the job until just before spring training, so he really didn't have much time. I still don't like the trade, yet I am trying to keep an open mind.

GOREDSGO32
07-13-2006, 10:03 PM
Fans need to stop overvaluing their players. It's not like we're talknig about two awesome players, future HOF'er or somethuing. Kearns strikes out like its a bodily function and I rather have Denorfia up honestly. I'm sick of strikeouts and poor defense, and I'm sick of a crappy bullpen. We got a good trade and I trust this GM .. people act like for a .270 and .260 batter we're supposed to get Clemens, Erickson, and Lee Smith, along with 5 future 1st rounders.

jdoncbus
07-13-2006, 10:24 PM
Too bad Austin could not stay healthy throughout his career. Potential is one thing but the Reds need relief help now. Check out the stats on the arms they got: long innings and decent relief. I trust Krivsky's judgement.

jdoncbus
07-13-2006, 10:27 PM
Not to mention -- prior to Bowden the Expos were well-known for have a solid crop of talent and unable to keep it in-house. As diehard Reds fans we can admit that our scouting and farm system has been in shambles...I like the direction of the Krivsky-Castellini braintrust.

Go Reds.

lucky bugle boy
07-13-2006, 10:37 PM
Kearns strikes out like its a bodily function

:laugh:

So does Lopez, it seems.

Rob Dicken
07-13-2006, 10:46 PM
Why are so many people high on Chris Denorfia?!

There's a reason why he was in the minor leagues for the time he was. If he's so good, why was he in the minors while DeWayne Wise and Quinton McCracken were in the majors? Neither one of those guys are or WERE really that good to take notice, so what makes Chris Denorfia so GREAT, that you would rather him start over Austin Kearns, or let alone...Ryan Freel?

In my eyes, Washington got a steal, and it's even mentioned on ESPN.com as being a terrible trade on Cincinnati's behalf. Face it, Jim Bowden squeezed blood from the turnip that fired him....can't get any simpler than that.

DannyB
07-13-2006, 10:49 PM
This rates right up there with......

Maldez
07-13-2006, 10:52 PM
You gotta hand it to Krivsky. It took balls the size of pumpkins to pull-off an 8man deal like this. How often does a GM trade 2 starters in one deal? Like almost never.

Krivsky has really looked like he's on top of his game with the deals he's done to-date, but this is the one that's gonna make or break his rep.

RedEye
07-13-2006, 10:54 PM
No way I can make sense of this trade. I was not against trading either Kearns or Lopez, but I can't understand why we traded both of them for 2 average RP's, a washed-up SS, a borderline MI prospect, and a single A pitcher. Both Kearns AND Lopez are among the top 50 players in baseball statistically... and the biggest return we get is Gary Majewski?

IMO, Kriv is either a mad genius or just plain mad right now. There better be a lot more deals to follow. This better be the first step in a RADICAL reworking of the team, or he has just turned this team into a mediocre version of its former self.

And of course this deal comes during the week that I finally read MONEYBALL. To make matters worse, I just read the part about how relief pitchers are like fool's gold in terms of value... and we didn't even get GOOD fool's gold by any measure!

What can I say? At least we have the Bengals, right? Oh, that's right, I forgot, they're busy filling their roster with dubious character guys right now (Ahmad Brooks?)

What a strange day to be a Cincinnati sports fan.

CrackerJack
07-13-2006, 10:54 PM
Why are so many people high on Chris Denorfia?!

There's a reason why he was in the minor leagues for the time he was. If he's so good, why was he in the minors while DeWayne Wise and Quinton McCracken were in the majors? Neither one of those guys are or WERE really that good to take notice, so what makes Chris Denorfia so GREAT, that you would rather him start over Austin Kearns, or let alone...Ryan Freel?

In my eyes, Washington got a steal, and it's even mentioned on ESPN.com as being a terrible trade on Cincinnati's behalf. Face it, Jim Bowden squeezed blood from the turnip that fired him....can't get any simpler than that.

The reason Denorfia was in the minors that long is that he needs to play every day still, and isn't a 36 year old vet like McCracken who you can afford to play sparingly.

Denorfia won't be much, if any, drop-off from Kearns sans some power in place of OBP and some better basepath speed.

I am just happy to get 3 good, young pitchers that are ML ready.

This isn't nearly as bad of a trade people are making it out to be.

Then again I was never too high on Kearns nor Lopez, and along with Jr. (who will be replaced by Bruce) just assume see them traded for an upgrade in the pitching dept.

The BP situation now and into the near future was a desperate situation.

I think a lot of folks are just reacting to Clayton being included initially, and going off the deep-end.

It was a choice between EE and Lopez - you can't keep those two on the same side of the infield forever.

I'll take EE also, and the pitching.

Bowden's an easy target for toolsy offensive players in return for pitching.

Rob Dicken
07-13-2006, 11:01 PM
The reason Denorfia was in the minors that long is that he needs to play every day still, and isn't a 36 year old vet like McCracken who you can afford to play sparingly.

Denorfia won't be much, if any, drop-off from Kearns sans some power in place of OBP and some better basepath speed.

I am just happy to get 3 good, young pitchers that are ML ready.

This isn't nearly as bad of a trade people are making it out to be.

Then again I was never too high on Kearns nor Lopez, and along with Jr. (who will be replaced by Bruce) just assume see them traded for an upgrade in the pitching dept.

The BP situation now and into the near future was a desperate situation.

I think a lot of folks are just reacting to Clayton being included initially, and going off the deep-end.

It was a choice between EE and Lopez - you can't keep those two on the same side of the infield forever.

I'll take EE also, and the pitching.

Bowden's an easy target for toolsy offensive players in return for pitching.

So let's get this straight....

Trade EVERYONE, so we can get pitching? Pfffft.

Anyone that says Griffey needs traded, needs to be shot. Griffey is still defensively one of the best Centerfielders in the game, still has great power, and drives in a decent amount of runs. We can't get rid of our run producers!

It has been proven time and time again that having at least 2 people in your lienup that can drive in 100 RBIs or more, you'll have a pretty successful team. Griffey and Dunn do just that. Despite the strikeouts, they produce runs.

I think you're worried a little TOO much about pitching, dude. It's very RARE that you see a crappy hitting team win because of pitching.

GOREDSGO32
07-13-2006, 11:07 PM
Umm ... its not like Kearns and Lopez were world beaters. They got us to 2 games over .500, lets see what happens with a decent bullpen, better D, and less strikeouts do in their place.

mbgrayson
07-13-2006, 11:08 PM
I will also miss Austin and Felipe.

We got 3 decent pitchers in this deal. Time will tell how good, but consider these facts;
1. Bill Bray, LH relief pitcher, age 23, was Washington's #7 rated prospect by Baseball America this year. "Bray is a strong ox of a lefthander with a pair of plus pitches: a heavy 91-94 mph fastball with darting movement and a tight 81-84 mph slider. He's effective against lefties and righties, and is not afraid to pitch inside..."

2. Daryl Thompson, RH starter, age 20, was Washington's #9 rated prospect by Baseball America this year. "Thompson showed his electric stuff can translate into results as he lowered his ERA by 1.73 runs from 2005[to 2005, in A ball]...Thompson is mature, has a great frame, and loves to pitch with his fastball. He's beginning to fill out and held the velocity on his fastball (91-94) longer than he did in the past.

3. Gary Majewski, RH reliever, age 26, has about two years of major league expereince. He has about a 47% groundball rate, and had a 2.93 ERA last year in 79 games/86 innings with the Nats. This year he has a 3.58 ERA in 46 games/ 55 innings. His Whip has dropped from 1.57 in 2004, to 1.36 in 2005, to 1.34 so far this year. Of course these numbers are largely in spacious, pitcher friendly RFK Stadium. However, he has a 2.73 ERA away from RFK this year over 29.2 innings.

4. Brendan Harris, age 25, infielder, was Washington's #18 rated prospect by Baseball America this year, falling from #5 in 2005. "He still has a solid line drive stroke with some gap power. He has a strong arm and good infiled instincts, though he doesn't do anything spectacular." This year he has a .379 OBP in AAA, along with 5 HRs, and a .416 SLG in 219 Abs.

5. Royce Clayton, age 36, shortstop, is hitting .269, OBP of .315, and .348 Slg in 87 games and 305 ABs. Very weak.....

redsmetz
07-13-2006, 11:10 PM
You gotta hand it to Krivsky. It took balls the size of pumpkins to pull-off an 8man deal like this. How often does a GM trade 2 starters in one deal? Like almost never.

Krivsky has really looked like he's on top of his game with the deals he's done to-date, but this is the one that's gonna make or break his rep.

Not to mention all three were 1st Round picks (Lopez with the Jays).

BigREDSfaninKY
07-13-2006, 11:55 PM
I will also miss Austin and Felipe.

We got 3 decent pitchers in this deal. Time will tell how good, but consider these facts;
1. Bill Bray, LH relief pitcher, age 23, was Washington's #7 rated prospect by Baseball America this year. "Bray is a strong ox of a lefthander with a pair of plus pitches: a heavy 91-94 mph fastball with darting movement and a tight 81-84 mph slider. He's effective against lefties and righties, and is not afraid to pitch inside..."

2. Daryl Thompson, RH starter, age 20, was Washington's #9 rated prospect by Baseball America this year. "Thompson showed his electric stuff can translate into results as he lowered his ERA by 1.73 runs from 2005[to 2005, in A ball]...Thompson is mature, has a great frame, and loves to pitch with his fastball. He's beginning to fill out and held the velocity on his fastball (91-94) longer than he did in the past.

3. Gary Majewski, RH reliever, age 26, has about two years of major league expereince. He has about a 47% groundball rate, and had a 2.93 ERA last year in 79 games/86 innings with the Nats. This year he has a 3.58 ERA in 46 games/ 55 innings. His Whip has dropped from 1.57 in 2004, to 1.36 in 2005, to 1.34 so far this year. Of course these numbers are largely in spacious, pitcher friendly RFK Stadium. However, he has a 2.73 ERA away from RFK this year over 29.2 innings.

4. Brendan Harris, age 25, infielder, was Washington's #18 rated prospect by Baseball America this year, falling from #5 in 2005. "He still has a solid line drive stroke with some gap power. He has a strong arm and good infiled instincts, though he doesn't do anything spectacular." This year he has a .379 OBP in AAA, along with 5 HRs, and a .416 SLG in 219 Abs.

5. Royce Clayton, age 36, shortstop, is hitting .269, OBP of .315, and .348 Slg in 87 games and 305 ABs. Very weak.....

At first, I was pissed like most Reds fans. But this bullpen is absolutely horrific, getting a lefty like Bray and Majewski is boost in the arm. I believe I heard Tim Kurkjin say on ESPN that a NL scout believes Majewski will be the Reds closer before the season is over.

I hate to see Kearns go, but bullpen help is priority #1. Luckily the Reds have a guy in Denorfia that can step in right away. Clayton replacing Lopez at SS will make the defense better. I don't see this trade as Krivsky last before the 31st.

goreds2
07-14-2006, 12:09 AM
At first, I was pissed like most Reds fans. But this bullpen is absolutely horrific, getting a lefty like Bray and Majewski is boost in the arm. I believe I heard Tim Kurkjin say on ESPN that a NL scout believes Majewski will be the Reds closer before the season is over.

I hate to see Kearns go, but bullpen help is priority #1. Luckily the Reds have a guy in Denorfia that can step in right away. Clayton replacing Lopez at SS will make the defense better. I don't see this trade as Krivsky last before the 31st.

The STUDS for the bullpen will arrive Friday July 14, 2006. :beerme:

NastyBoy
07-14-2006, 12:13 AM
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/baseball/mlb/07/13/reds.nationals.ap/t1_trade.jpg


Here we go again.

NastyBoy
07-14-2006, 12:17 AM
Kearns strikes out like its a bodily function and I rather have Denorfia up honestly. I'm sick of strikeouts and poor defense, and I'm sick of a crappy bullpen.

Well then, they traded the wrong corner outfielder.

ChatterRed
07-14-2006, 12:21 AM
Good trade.

We have plenty of shortstops that can duplicate Lopez........and Kearns has average numbers. Outfield is the easiest position to fill.

Jim Bowden did EXACTLY what he use to do when he was GM of the Reds.........TRADE AWAY GOOD YOUNG PITCHING.

I'm glad this new management picked his pocket and traded a defensively weak shortstop and an average outfielder who has had his chance to prove himself worthy.

Denorfia or one of the younger guys like Bruce or others will easily fill Kearns shoes in the future.

Aurillia, Castro and Clayton will easily fill Lopez's shoes.

No worries. Great trade that will follow in the footsteps of obtaining Phillips, Arroyo and Ross. This management knows what they are doing.

We also dumped salary and opened up the door to add another starting pitcher by the trading deadline. Count on it. I have sources.

ChatterRed
07-14-2006, 12:24 AM
At this point i'm disappointed with the trade and I don't think I will change my mind anytime soon. I would consider this a good trade IF I thought the reds were capable of winning the world series this year...but I don't. The reds may be able to contend in the division with the new bullpen help and defensive help, they may possibly be able to contend for the league championship. However, i don't think the reds could beat the white sox, red sox, or yankees in a 7 game series. And in my book second place is just the first loser. It's not that I mind trading Kearns and Lopez but the Reds should have gone after a strong, young starter...not bullpen arms. Bullpen help is difficult to come by in the middle of the season especially when so many teams are still in contention. Compared to the off season where good bullpen arms can be assembled for 1 - 2 million each. I view this a caving into the part time fans desire for a winner and managements aim to show they are commited to winning when in reality they could have helped the team so much more by admitting that this team wasn't championship material.
I love the reds and I want them to win but I want to see a world series championship again. I don't fondly remember 1995 but I will always remember the 1990 team. Bowden made his team better and showed why he is still a better GM than WV, imo.

They aren't capable of winning the world series this year, so it's a good trade for future relief pitching. Plus it dumps salary.

MaineRed
07-14-2006, 12:29 AM
One thing I see in this thread is how badly people STILL underestimate the bullpen and how important it is. It won the Reds the World Series in 1990 but people still can't grasp it.

For years the Reds have been all about offense and no pitching and it clearly doesn't work. This season they have added some solid starting pitching but the bullpen has killed them. The starters have kept them in it but the bullpen continues to waste those efforts.

Everyone knew bullpen guys were going to hard to come by. You weren't going to get serious help for Juan Castro and some no name prospect. You aren't going to get anyone for Jason Larue. The Reds had to make a splash to try to fix the bullpen and they have done that. Will the guys WK got perform? Well, we'll see. Dealing from strenght, to fix a weakness is what good small market GMs do. As I said, the Reds of the past have tried to win with nothing but offense and it simply doesn't work. Not even close.

The Reds lose Kearns in right but they gain Denorfia/Freel. Better range, quicker on the bases and probably on the bases just as much if not more than Kearns.

Offensively at short the Reds lose something, though something is probably gained on D. The way Felipe has been hitting, it might be an even swap and I think WK would make an even swap when he comes out ahed on D. Especially in our ballpark.

I'm not going to say I like this trade because I am not familar with the guys the Reds got. But I like the direction of the trade. It makes sense, at least when trying to be reasonable enough to realize that Krivsky wouldn't trade 2 starters for a pile of garbage.

Did he rip off Bowden? Probably not. Did he help the Reds? Based on what I am reading, sounds like he might have.

Razor Shines
07-14-2006, 12:37 AM
One thing I see in this thread is how badly people STILL underestimate the bullpen and how important it is. It won the Reds the World Series in 1990 but people still can't grasp it.

For years the Reds have been all about offense and no pitching and it clearly doesn't work. This season they have added some solid starting pitching but the bullpen has killed them. The starters have kept them in it but the bullpen continues to waste those efforts.

Everyone knew bullpen guys were going to hard to come by. You weren't going to get serious help for Juan Castro and some no name prospect. You aren't going to get anyone for Jason Larue. The Reds had to make a splash to try to fix the bullpen and they have done that. Will the guys WK got perform? Well, we'll see. Dealing from strenght, to fix a weakness is what good small market GMs do. As I said, the Reds of the past have tried to win with nothing but offense and it simply doesn't work. Not even close.

The Reds lose Kearns in right but they gain Denorfia/Freel. Better range, quicker on the bases and probably on the bases just as much if not more than Kearns.

Offensively at short the Reds lose something, though something is probably gained on D. The way Felipe has been hitting, it might be an even swap and I think WK would make an even swap when he comes out ahed on D. Especially in our ballpark.

I'm not going to say I like this trade because I am not familar with the guys the Reds got. But I like the direction of the trade. It makes sense, at least when trying to be reasonable enough to realize that Krivsky wouldn't trade 2 starters for a pile of garbage.

Did he rip off Bowden? Probably not. Did he help the Reds? Based on what I am reading, sounds like he might have.
I'd have to agree with almost everything in this post, now there's no point in typing it out.

Newman4
07-14-2006, 12:44 AM
Thoughts:

1. Bray is everything Ryan Wagner is supposed to be at this point. Great K/9 numbers at every level. Rated the best slider in the Nats system in 2005. Fastball tops out mid-90s. Could replace Eddie G. as the closer as early as next year. He just turned 23 June 5th. THE key to the deal.

2. Gary Majewski has been a successful ML reliever. 3 point something ERA. Very effective.


3. Royce Clayton should NEVER start in front of Phillips or Freel. Ever. Clayton = Tony Womack only slower and with a better glove.

4. I hope Harris is part of a package along with a catcher for a marginal SP. He looks to do a lot of things adequate, but nothing special. Chris Stynes?

5. Lopez and Kearns were expendable parts, however, the big question has to be is this the best you could get for two ML starting position players? I know Lopez is a Boras client and this would happen eventually. However, Kearns was a home-grown prospect coming into his own. At this point, I think Bray and Majewski are the real deal and the Thompson kid looks promising, but I question the return for Kearns and Lopez.

REDREAD
07-14-2006, 12:45 AM
I'm not sure I'm liking it, but I'm more puzzled by it. I'm think there's another shoe to drop, but then again, we've said that before. I'll hang with Wayne on it, but again, it's puzzling.


I doubt another shoe drops.. Wayne has pretty much traded all his shoes at this point. Everyone left is either essential to win or not desirable (ie Milton).
We've got no trading chips left unless we want to trade Homer or Bruce.
This is our big move to try and win the division. I hope it works, because we sure paid dearly.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 12:46 AM
One thing I see in this thread is how badly people STILL underestimate the bullpen and how important it is. It won the Reds the World Series in 1990 but people still can't grasp it.

For years the Reds have been all about offense and no pitching and it clearly doesn't work. This season they have added some solid starting pitching but the bullpen has killed them. The starters have kept them in it but the bullpen continues to waste those efforts.

Everyone knew bullpen guys were going to hard to come by. You weren't going to get serious help for Juan Castro and some no name prospect. You aren't going to get anyone for Jason Larue. The Reds had to make a splash to try to fix the bullpen and they have done that. Will the guys WK got perform? Well, we'll see. Dealing from strenght, to fix a weakness is what good small market GMs do. As I said, the Reds of the past have tried to win with nothing but offense and it simply doesn't work. Not even close.

The Reds lose Kearns in right but they gain Denorfia/Freel. Better range, quicker on the bases and probably on the bases just as much if not more than Kearns.

Offensively at short the Reds lose something, though something is probably gained on D. The way Felipe has been hitting, it might be an even swap and I think WK would make an even swap when he comes out ahed on D. Especially in our ballpark.

I'm not going to say I like this trade because I am not familar with the guys the Reds got. But I like the direction of the trade. It makes sense, at least when trying to be reasonable enough to realize that Krivsky wouldn't trade 2 starters for a pile of garbage.

Did he rip off Bowden? Probably not. Did he help the Reds? Based on what I am reading, sounds like he might have.

ANY production from the Reds pen and they are 3 games ahead of the Cardinals, MAYBE 6 games. The squeaky wheel just got the Grease!

Newman4
07-14-2006, 12:49 AM
\ Everyone left is either essential to win or not desirable (ie Milton).
We've got no trading chips left unless we want to trade Homer or Bruce.

I assume Larue fits in the 'undesirable' category?

lucky bugle boy
07-14-2006, 12:54 AM
I doubt another shoe drops.. Wayne has pretty much traded all his shoes at this point. Everyone left is either essential to win or not desirable (ie Milton).
We've got no trading chips left unless we want to trade Homer or Bruce.
This is our big move to try and win the division. I hope it works, because we sure paid dearly.

I couldn't agree with this more. I can't fathom getting a starter that will help us in return for Jason Larue, for example. It won't happen unless someone is serious desperate for a catcher. What else do we have that is expendable, in reality? Aurilia? Valentin? Regardless if it pans out or not, it was not cheap.

lucky bugle boy
07-14-2006, 12:56 AM
I assume Larue fits in the 'undesirable' category?
At this point, yes.

REDREAD
07-14-2006, 12:58 AM
I assume Larue fits in the 'undesirable' category?

Not unmovable, but if they trade him, they're trading him at his all time low.

lucky bugle boy
07-14-2006, 01:01 AM
Not unmovable, but if they trade him, they're trading him at his all time low.
Again, agree, and same with Valentin, probably.

Wheelhouse
07-14-2006, 10:05 AM
Conversely, I'm amazed at the ability some fans have of undervaluing their own players. Lopez was an All-Star just last season. Kearns has been highly regarded (and coveted) by many organizations, including the Cardinals, Cubs, and Royals to name a few.

Of all qualifying shortstops in MLB, Lopez is tied for 10th in OPS this season. Of all qualifying RFs in MLB, Kearns ranks 10th in OPS. Expand that to include all qualifying outfielders, and Kearns ranks 28th in OPS.

Translation: they're good.

Kearns and Lopez would be upgrades for probably 20 of the 30 major league teams, and yet some people choose to focus on their faults and ignore their talent.

I guess it cuts both ways, huh?

I do NOT think high OPS means definitively they "are good" for the Reds.

Kearns: a nice player, but one who is injury prone. He has NEVER had 400 ABs in a season in his major league career. Denorfia is an upgrade on defense. The Reds traded Kearns at peak value--and before the next injury comes down the pike. Kearns is not a stickler for conditioning, and unfortunately, I don't think he's seen the last of his stints on the DL.

Lopez: A player looking for moments to relax in a game. Constantly angling whether he needs to hustle in a situation or whether he can kick back. As a fan, thats the one thing I can't tolerate in an OPS- um, excuse me- baseball game. I'm sorry, Felipe is at an age where he should know the game, and he is not a major league caliber fielder, not just in making throws, but not being at a base that should be covered, not backing up, etc..

Now both of these players might benefit from a nice blast of Frank Robinson. I hope they do. But they had their serious flaws while here and are not the gold certain people think they are, OPS notwithstanding.

REDREAD
07-14-2006, 10:25 AM
Kearns: a nice player, but one who is injury prone. He has NEVER had 400 ABs in a season in his major league career. .

A big reason he's never had 400 AB in a season is because he's always had to share his position with Wily Mo (until this year). And then we had DanO torpedoing his trade value by sending him to the minors instead of trading him for Cliff Lee who was offered before the season started.

As far as injury prone, I disagree. He had that collision with Ray King, and that wierd bone spur in his hand that Doc Hollywood misdiagnosed (remember, at first it was just a blister, and then it evolved into something that needed surgury).

It's not like the guy has a chronic arm/shoulder problem or tears his hamstrings easily. He had one plate collision and a freak thing with his hand. Nothing to suggest that he is more injury prone than any other player.

Newman4
07-14-2006, 10:33 AM
My question, as previously mentioned, is not did we trade the right guys, but did we get the maximum return? While Bray and Majewski are quality and Thompson is a promising guy, I think the answer is no. Just my opinion.

vermonter
07-14-2006, 11:18 AM
There is some great commentary in this thread and much more reality in these discussions than I've seen outside of Reds Land.

I pretty much agree with most of the substance here. In my view, Krivsky took a look at the current team, found it wanting, and made a move that chops off a few peaks to fill in a few valleys to make the Reds a more consistent, balanced team. I think the Reds improved their defense, their overall hitting consistency, cut down on their strikeouts, and greatly improved the bullpen.

He definitely sold high on Kearns and Lopez, but I agree that you folks could possibly have expected a higher return on them. The beautiful thing is that everyone except for Clayton certainly has some upside, so its not just a GFIN strategem, but should make the team better over the next few years.

If Majeski, Bray, Phillips and Denorifa do pan out, Krivsky is a genius. On the flip side, Bowden is a complete moron. There is no way the Nats are going to make the playoffs this season, and there is no guarantee that he is going to be able to retain the services of Lopez and Kearns for any length of time. Lopez may well have had his career year last season, and Kearns sole value as a HR hitter is going to be sharply curtailed by playing in RFK stadium and other expansive ballparks in the NL East. Bowden continues to be hyperactive, myopic, and you guys are well rid of him.

Anyway, my $.02 from Northern New England ...

Handofdeath
07-14-2006, 11:41 AM
Well then, they traded the wrong corner outfielder.

Yes but Dunn will hit 40-50 homers and Kearns will never do that.

RedEye
07-14-2006, 11:51 AM
We also dumped salary and opened up the door to add another starting pitcher by the trading deadline. Count on it. I have sources.

Did we really dump salary? I didn't think that either Kearns or Lopez was making that much money right now...

I suppose we sort of dumped future salary headaches since Kearns was probably looking at a pay increase in arbitration (on pace for his first 30-100 season) and Lopez has Scott Boras as his agent, guaranteed to drive to a hard bargain.

Still... I can't see this as a salary dump ŗ la Aaron Boone to the Yanks.

Handofdeath
07-14-2006, 11:51 AM
[QUOTE=Bowden continues to be hyperactive, myopic, and you guys are well rid of him.
Anyway, my $.02 from Northern New England ...[/QUOTE]


Everyone here knows very well the ability of Jimbo as a GM. He was constantly taken adavantage of in trades and he's barely held on to the job he has now. You watch. Reds fans will finally have the pleasure of watching Jimbo being taken advantage of by his old team. It will be sweet. Whether you realize or not, Jimbo got fleeced...again.

flyer85
07-14-2006, 11:54 AM
Jimbo made a lot of good deals and few bad ones in his time with the Reds. Where Bowden failed miserably was in the player drafting and development area(especially pitching). Thanks to good deals guys like EE and Lopez were on the roster after having been acquired for almost nothing.

REDREAD
07-14-2006, 12:10 PM
Whether you realize or not, Jimbo got fleeced...again.

:confused:

The only way Jimbo gets fleeced in this deal is if BOTH Kearns and Lopez suddenly become below average. If one of them simply maintains his current production, Bowden at least breaks even.

Even if Bray becomes a lights out closer, and Kearns and Lopez just stay at their career norms, Bowden doesn't get fleeced in this deal. Wayne gave him enough talent to almost guarantee that Wash at least breaks even in the deal.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 12:13 PM
Not TC, but I'm sure that attitude he had last year didn't sit well with some. But he did respond well after that after coming back up from AAA.

Yes I can elaborate quite a bit. I'm really struggling with what I should say, if anything. I know and like Austin but I have lost a great deal of respect for him in the last two years.

Willy
07-14-2006, 12:18 PM
I like the trade for now and later. Wayne continues to shape this team into his vision. Lopez and Kearns are both nice players, but it is obvious that Wayne in NOT just a fantasy baseball GM, he has idea of what it takes to win in real baseball and he is putting together the pieces. Did h over pay a little bit, Yes, but he wants to have a certain kind of team and there were no quick ways to get there by useing the farm system. He may have lost in the trade, but the team is going to be better, if that makes sense.

Handofdeath
07-14-2006, 12:57 PM
:confused:

The only way Jimbo gets fleeced in this deal is if BOTH Kearns and Lopez suddenly become below average. If one of them simply maintains his current production, Bowden at least breaks even.

Even if Bray becomes a lights out closer, and Kearns and Lopez just stay at their career norms, Bowden doesn't get fleeced in this deal. Wayne gave him enough talent to almost guarantee that Wash at least breaks even in the deal.

But Lopez isn't even maintaining his current production from last year.
He's a lousy fielder and signs are he's not going to get much better. He's got speed but last year is never happening again production wise. He won't have the same protection in the lineup that he did before. What protection he might have around him won't be there next season. Soriano is gone. Vidro is probably gone. And Jose Guillen? That brings us to Kearns and the same thing applies. Dunn and Junior are not there to provide protection. And the team is in constant turmoil. Mark my words, this trade will wind up being a steal.

dabvu2498
07-14-2006, 01:06 PM
Mark my words, this trade will wind up being a steal.
That's exactly why I don't like this trade. I don't think, even if the new guys give us exactly what we can expect from them, we could ever view this deal as any better than a push.

registerthis
07-14-2006, 01:06 PM
I pretty much agree with most of the substance here. In my view, Krivsky took a look at the current team, found it wanting, and made a move that chops off a few peaks to fill in a few valleys to make the Reds a more consistent, balanced team. I think the Reds improved their defense, their overall hitting consistency, cut down on their strikeouts, and greatly improved the bullpen.

They didn't improve their defense--Clayton's defense once was very good, now is average at best. Clayton's hardly an improvement defensively over Lopez, and his offense is downright offensive.

Their "hitting consistency", whatever that is, isn't nearly as important as overall run production, and this trade puts a serious damper on that. Clayton is an offensive black hole in the lineup. Additionally, you're placing a lot of weight on Denorfia's shoulders to pick up where kearns left off.

They've marginally improved their bullpen--Majewski is a solid reliever, but no Earth-shattering. Bray is still an unknown commodity at this point, who may or may not be able to help substantially this year.

There simply isn't a way to postiviely spin this trade.

registerthis
07-14-2006, 01:07 PM
Whether you realize or not, Jimbo got fleeced...again.

I'm sure that's exactly what he was telling Krivsky as the trade was being finalized.

flyer85
07-14-2006, 01:08 PM
Yes I can elaborate quite a bit. I'm really struggling with what I should say, if anything. I know and like Austin but I have lost a great deal of respect for him in the last two years.you brought it up. Is it fair to AK to bring "stuff" up if you aren't willing to be specific about it.

flyer85
07-14-2006, 01:09 PM
The likeliest outcome of the deal yesterday is WK bought JB 2 to 3 years of job security.

REDREAD
07-14-2006, 01:24 PM
But Lopez isn't even maintaining his current production from last year.
He's a lousy fielder and signs are he's not going to get much better. He's got speed but last year is never happening again production wise. He won't have the same protection in the lineup that he did before. What protection he might have around him won't be there next season. Soriano is gone. Vidro is probably gone. And Jose Guillen? That brings us to Kearns and the same thing applies. Dunn and Junior are not there to provide protection. And the team is in constant turmoil. Mark my words, this trade will wind up being a steal.

I value protection more than a lot of people, but I don't think protection has much to do with Lopez.. He's had protction here, and still slumped.

Lopez has a reputation for not being the easiest guy in the world to manage. As does Kearns, who moped a lot last year (although I think he was justified). Give these guys an everyday job where they don't have to worry about getting benched for Juan Castro, and I'm sure they'll respond. Last season, Lopez needed a little push from Aurilia to finally get him to break out. In the right environment, I think Lopez will flourish. Getting him back with Larkin seems like a great idea.

Lopez has the tools to improve defensively. He's made some great plays. Hopefully he'll get a little more focus in Wash.

But you agree? In order for this trade to be a steal for the Reds, both Kearns and Lopez have to flop, and Bray has to become an elite closer level reliever.
If that happens, I admit the deal was a steal. I just don't see it happening though.

Bray (the centerpiece of this deal for the Reds) has allowed an 857 OPS on the road this year. It's a small sample, but perhaps RFK has inflated his value and we just got conned.

goreds2
07-14-2006, 01:34 PM
I look forward to hearing Tracy Jones comments tonight after the game.
(Yes, we know, HE PLAYED THE GAME)

700WLW: (7/14/06)
10PM-MIDNIGHT EXTRA INNINGS w/ TRACY JONES
Your calls….after the game.

osuceltic
07-14-2006, 01:37 PM
They've marginally improved their bullpen--Majewski is a solid reliever, but no Earth-shattering. Bray is still an unknown commodity at this point, who may or may not be able to help substantially this year.
If these two guys had been in Cincinnati all season, the Reds would be leading the division. The bullpen has been that bad. A "solid" reliever is light years better than anything the Reds have. And Bray has been at least "solid" to this point and has a pretty good background. These are two guys who could be anchors in that bullpen for years.

I continue to be amazed at how undervalued pitching is around here -- especially relief pitching. I'm convinced it is the fantasy baseball effect. Fans judge these trades based on the fantasy numbers and not on impact on the field. I doubt they even do it consciously, but I'm convinced it's happening.

griffeyfreak4
07-14-2006, 01:46 PM
Royce Clayton :thumbdown:

I don't really like this trade but that is how bad we need some BP help. We got some BP help, and hopefully Phillips moves to SS, and RA goes to 2B.

Now I don't know if this has been discussed, but do we start Deno in RF or Freel?

vermonter
07-14-2006, 03:57 PM
They didn't improve their defense--Clayton's defense once was very good, now is average at best. Clayton's hardly an improvement defensively over Lopez, and his offense is downright offensive.

Their "hitting consistency", whatever that is, isn't nearly as important as overall run production, and this trade puts a serious damper on that. Clayton is an offensive black hole in the lineup. Additionally, you're placing a lot of weight on Denorfia's shoulders to pick up where kearns left off.

They've marginally improved their bullpen--Majewski is a solid reliever, but no Earth-shattering. Bray is still an unknown commodity at this point, who may or may not be able to help substantially this year.

There simply isn't a way to postiviely spin this trade.

I'm no fan of Clayton either, he is indeed an offensive black hole, but his even consistent defense is better than crappy defense, especially at SS. If you assume that Clayton is going to play every day then his OBP is going to hurt you, but I suspect that Phillips will probably play a lot of SS in the end. Of course, it remains to be seen if Phillips can play SS in the big leagues. If he can, and you can leave Freel in a 2B, then you have solidified your infield through subtracting Lopez alone.

As for Denorfia, I don't think its pressure rather than opportunity (he was completely blocked six months ago). He won't hit as many HRs as Kearns, but I suspect he will do everything else as well, if not better than AK. If he can provide the .380 OBP, line drive power, and decent corner defense that most believe he can, he'll be better than Kearns. If he doesn't make the most of the opportunity, there will be plenty of corner outfield types available for a bag or two of balls down the stretch.

I like what Krivsky is doing - filling the team with versatile players with sound baseball skills and ridding the team of one-dimensional, inconsistent types.