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Team Clark
07-18-2006, 02:11 PM
TC, you made a post last year or the year before where you heard some other scout or front office person tell you that out the Top 10 dumbest hitters in the league, the Reds had 5 of them. How many of those players are still here (if you remember that conversation)?

I do remember. I remember where I was and who was sitting next to me. :laugh: The Reds still have two. I think one is turning the corner. I have to temper my enthusiasm because I see a lot of players start to work on something, have success, and then stop working. Time will tell.

Team Clark
07-18-2006, 02:12 PM
Like what? Big name or something like what FeLo was when we first got him in the Tor/Arz/Cin trade?

Just a strong feeling I have...;)

Team Clark
07-18-2006, 02:15 PM
There seemed to be no place for Cody Ross as a starter for the Reds. Knowing that, Krivsky aquired him. Now if his intent was for him to be the 4th OF, fine. No problem, yetKrivsky had a death grip on Q's roster spot and only just finally released him. So Ross made no sense.

Now David Ross made sense only if Javy was going somewhere else. And had LaRue not needed surgery to start the year, I think that is what would have happened. but as it is, Javy has become the Lizard's personal pitcher, and a three headed monster behind the dish is born. This is offset somewhat by Freel's versatility, but still makes for a sloooow bench when Freel starts.

Yan has a good FB, and no real history of success. He'll get another shot somewhere because of that fastball.

But if the market for Guardado was Travis Chick, then Krivsky wildly overpaid for Bray and Majewski.

Death grip on Q? Hmmm. Wise was Krivsky's guy in ST. If memory serves, Wise had the club made and Q was not supposed to make the club. It took Wise quite awhile to heal from a serious ankle injury and when he did Q got banged. So where is the death grip?

corkedbat
07-18-2006, 02:15 PM
Just a strong feeling I have...;)

Does anything you've heard lead to those feelings or is it just because you think another move(s) makes sense?

Team Clark
07-18-2006, 02:16 PM
Does anything you've heard back that up or is it just because you think another move(s) makes sense?


Both! :laugh:

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 02:17 PM
I do remember. I remember where I was and who was sitting next to me. :laugh: The Reds still have two. I think one is turning the corner. I have to temper my enthusiasm because I see a lot of players start to work on something, have success, and then stop working. Time will tell.


Thanks. I was trying to remember the 5. I know the two that are still on the team, and I'd agree that the one is turning a corner, although it will take work for him to continue that. I know 2 of the 3 that have left the organization...and I might know the 3rd if he was also in the news recently.

I'd be willing to bet that the one still on the team, not turning the corner, would be dealt before the end of this offseason.

Team Clark
07-18-2006, 02:19 PM
Thanks. I was trying to remember the 5. I know the two that are still on the team, and I'd agree that the one is turning a corner, although it will take work for him to continue that. I know 2 of the 3 that have left the organization...and I might know the 3rd if he was also in the news recently.

I'd be willing to bet that the one still on the team, not turning the corner, would be dealt before the end of this offseason.

Yes and cryptically speaking you are correct! :evil:

smith288
07-18-2006, 02:20 PM
Just a strong feeling I have...;)
You toy with my emotions like a cat with yarn...

corkedbat
07-18-2006, 02:20 PM
Both! :laugh:

Hey! both wasn't an offered option! :D Great thread! Thanks for your input TC!

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 02:30 PM
Yes and cryptically speaking you are correct! :evil:

I hadn't thought about that post you made however long ago until I started reading this thread. They kind of go hand-in-hand if you think about what Wayne's doing.

RichRed
07-18-2006, 02:42 PM
Is Hatteberg really playing over his head or is he playing better than people really wanted him too. There are still a lot of Casey fans out there that can't come to terms with him being gone. Hatteberg is a professional baseball player. Never been on a losing team. That's not all luck. Putting up good numbers in the big leagues requires actual physical skill and talent. Maybe you get lucky in the "numbers" with 30-40 AB's or IP's but that is not the case here. Hatteberg is doing it almost every day. Give the guy some credit.


You may be right about the residual love for Casey but that doesn't change the fact that Hatteberg is exceeding all reasonable expectations. He's basically on pace for a career season at the age of 36 - almost unheard of. His BA is 40 points over his career avg., his OBP is 49 points over his career avg. and his SLG is a whopping 72 points over career average. I give the guy all the credit in the world but I don't think anyone could expect him to keep up that scorching pace for the rest of the season.

I sure will be rooting for him to do it though.

Steve4192
07-18-2006, 02:42 PM
But if the market for Guardado was Travis Chick, then Krivsky wildly overpaid for Bray and Majewski.

Guardado is 35 years old, has a $6.3MM pricetag, is a free agent at the end of the season, and was getting slapped around like Farrah Fawcett in 'The Burning Bed' at the time of the trade.

Majewski & Bray are both young, earning close to the minimum, controlled by the Reds for another 4-6 years, and were pitching very well at the time of the trade.

Apples and oranges my friend.

Team Clark
07-18-2006, 02:43 PM
Hey! both wasn't an offered option! :D Great thread! Thanks for your input TC!

I know. I wanted to make you laugh.

OK. Here is a deal that had been proposed. I know this to be true. Not sure if it is still feasable, died, rejuvenated, etc... This deal was being discussed in the seat next to me and the names were written on yellow legal pad. I Was sitting next to Mel Didier and Tom Giordano both of the Texas Rangers. There was also some mention of waiting to see when Eaton came off the DL to get the deal done that way. AGAIN, this deal may have died or barely lifted off the ground. This was the week prior to the AS break.

Rangers were giving up: Ian Kinsler, Joaquin Benoit, and Otsuka

Reds were parting with: Justin Germano, Todd Coffey, Jason LaRue. The Rangers wanted to add Rich Aurillia OR Shackelford/Standridge.

redsfan30
07-18-2006, 02:45 PM
This thread has got to be archived. This is fantastic stuff and thanks again a million times, Team Clark!!!!

You have to give us more information about the move you have a feeling about.... ;)

Heath
07-18-2006, 02:46 PM
I know. I wanted to make you laugh.

OK. Here is a deal that had been proposed. I know this to be true. Not sure if it is still feasable, died, rejuvenated, etc... This deal was being discussed in the seat next to me and the names were written on yellow legal pad. I Was sitting next to Mel Didier and Tom Giordano both of the Texas Rangers. There was also some mention of waiting to see when Eaton came off the DL to get the deal done that way. AGAIN, this deal may have died or barely lifted off the ground. This was the week prior to the AS break.

Rangers were giving up: Ian Kinsler, Joaquin Benoit, and Otsuka

Reds were parting with: Justin Germano, Todd Coffey, Jason LaRue. The Rangers wanted to add Rich Aurillia OR Shackelford/Standridge.

where do I sign?

redsfan30
07-18-2006, 02:48 PM
I MIGHT be able to live with that deal...

:)

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 02:52 PM
Sounds like that deal with TEX was what the Reds were going to do before they made the Kearns / Lopez deal. Probably a deal that fell apart. That deal I'm sure, would get rave reviews around here. I LOVE Ian Kinsler as a 2B. You team him with Brandon Phillips and you not only have a better defensive middle infield, but offensively, you're loaded as well. I believe Kinsler to be sort of a Marcus Giles type 2B, a good player to have. As is now, I have trouble seeing the Reds acquiring two more bullpen guys (Benoit / Otsuka). Although for what they are giving up (and I'd include either Shack or Standridge, keep Aurilia), I'd do this deal 100 times a day.

I doubt this is something that's still on the books, though. With Shack's legal problems no way is he still being mentioned. Still, if the Rangers were still interested, I'd gladly give up LaRue, Germano, Coffey and Standridge (or Aurilia) for that package back. If that deal was pulled off still...wow, imagine the bullpen. Guardado, Otsuka, Benoit, Bray, Majewski...talk about serious upgrade. We'd have a left handed and a right handed closer--nasty boys part II with a little metamucil.

corkedbat
07-18-2006, 02:53 PM
I know. I wanted to make you laugh.

OK. Here is a deal that had been proposed. I know this to be true. Not sure if it is still feasable, died, rejuvenated, etc... This deal was being discussed in the seat next to me and the names were written on yellow legal pad. I Was sitting next to Mel Didier and Tom Giordano both of the Texas Rangers. There was also some mention of waiting to see when Eaton came off the DL to get the deal done that way. AGAIN, this deal may have died or barely lifted off the ground. This was the week prior to the AS break.

Rangers were giving up: Ian Kinsler, Joaquin Benoit, and Otsuka

Reds were parting with: Justin Germano, Todd Coffey, Jason LaRue. The Rangers wanted to add Rich Aurillia OR Shackelford/Standridge.

I'm sure they'd want a wily vet like RA - who wouldn't? No problem just add Tiexiera or Blaylock to the Reds side of the ledger - Done deal! Let's do it! We'll toss in a sex offender at no further charge too! :evil:

Steve4192
07-18-2006, 02:54 PM
You may be right about the residual love for Casey but that doesn't change the fact that Hatteberg is exceeding all reasonable expectations.
Take a look at Hatteberg's career numbers and you'll see he has some of that Brett Sabrehagen ever-other-year thing going on.

Since the turn of the century, Hatteberg has batted 253/331/360 (691 OPS) in odd numbered years and 284/375/437 (812 OPS) in even numbered years. He was due for a bounceback into the 800+ OPS range, and that is right where he sits today. Granted, he probably won't finish the season in the high 800s territory that he currently resides, but I suspect he'll still end up with numbers that rival an average Sean Casey year (833 OPS) ... for about 1/11th of the salary.

corkedbat
07-18-2006, 03:00 PM
Otsuka: REC 2-3 | SV 18 | ERA 2.08 | WHIP .92
Benoit: REC 0-1 | SV 0 | ERA 4.78 | WHIP 1.38

Sign me up! DFA Weathers and send them Shackleford and Standridge - let the Rangers kick in a ml position player with some future.

pedro
07-18-2006, 03:03 PM
I know. I wanted to make you laugh.

OK. Here is a deal that had been proposed. I know this to be true. Not sure if it is still feasable, died, rejuvenated, etc... This deal was being discussed in the seat next to me and the names were written on yellow legal pad. I Was sitting next to Mel Didier and Tom Giordano both of the Texas Rangers. There was also some mention of waiting to see when Eaton came off the DL to get the deal done that way. AGAIN, this deal may have died or barely lifted off the ground. This was the week prior to the AS break.

Rangers were giving up: Ian Kinsler, Joaquin Benoit, and Otsuka

Reds were parting with: Justin Germano, Todd Coffey, Jason LaRue. The Rangers wanted to add Rich Aurillia OR Shackelford/Standridge.

sign me up too.

corkedbat
07-18-2006, 03:03 PM
Kick in Royce Clayton too - didn't he used to play for the Rangers? I'm sure there are fond memories.

Caveat Emperor
07-18-2006, 03:04 PM
I know. I wanted to make you laugh.

OK. Here is a deal that had been proposed. I know this to be true. Not sure if it is still feasable, died, rejuvenated, etc... This deal was being discussed in the seat next to me and the names were written on yellow legal pad. I Was sitting next to Mel Didier and Tom Giordano both of the Texas Rangers. There was also some mention of waiting to see when Eaton came off the DL to get the deal done that way. AGAIN, this deal may have died or barely lifted off the ground. This was the week prior to the AS break.

Rangers were giving up: Ian Kinsler, Joaquin Benoit, and Otsuka

Reds were parting with: Justin Germano, Todd Coffey, Jason LaRue. The Rangers wanted to add Rich Aurillia OR Shackelford/Standridge.

Man...that'd be a REALLY tough deal to turn down. Assuming Phillips is cool with a jump over to short for the remainder of the year, 2B would be freed up for Kinsler to play for the reaminder of the year. I like Kinsler a lot, and since he's only 24 he could be an anchor player w/ BP on the field for many years to come. Benoit puts a lot of guys on base, but he also strikes a lot of batters out, which I always like. Otsuka instantly solves the closer problem (which is still a problem, despite what Eddie Guardado would lead you to believe).

I wouldn't be too terribly broken up about losing anyone on that list. Germano is garbage, LaRue I like except for the contract he's playing for, and Coffey I like but continue to have questions about his ability to take his game to the next level effectively. Shackleford and Standridge are also pretty "eh" as well.

Yeah, I'm certain I make that deal. I wonder where it got scuttled -- it seems like, with the exception of Coffey, the Reds were giving up a lot of spare parts and getting value in return.

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 03:06 PM
Kinsler is exactly what Krivsky should be trying to acquire moving forward. He knows Phillips is going to move to SS and he knows his in-house options at 2B (Freel, to be kept as UTIL; Olmedo - ????; B. Harris - ?????) aren't the best. Get a proven, young stud 2B in here and you're gold.

osuceltic
07-18-2006, 03:08 PM
I MIGHT be able to live with that deal...

:)
Finish this setence: "If it sounds too good to be true ... "

I'm not questioning TC. I just don't believe that's the extent of anything that had any chance of happening. What do the Rangers get out of that? They downgrade in talent across the board and don't fill a single need. There's no way they do that deal.

Gainesville Red
07-18-2006, 03:10 PM
I can't believe the Rangers would want that deal. (I'll take it though)

corkedbat
07-18-2006, 03:12 PM
Prolly is TGTBT, but I'd still love to add Kinsler and Otsuka

flyer85
07-18-2006, 03:14 PM
Rangers were giving up: Ian Kinsler, Joaquin Benoit, and Otsuka

Reds were parting with: Justin Germano, Todd Coffey, Jason LaRue. The Rangers wanted to add Rich Aurillia OR Shackelford/Standridge.I have no idea why
a) The Rangers would want to trade Kinsler
or
b) Why they would want Larue when they have Laird(they should be giving him more ABs) and Barajas.

Trade would make no sense for the Rangers but from the Reds perspective it would be great. Kind of the opposite of the recent deal.

TRF
07-18-2006, 03:20 PM
Death grip on Q? Hmmm. Wise was Krivsky's guy in ST. If memory serves, Wise had the club made and Q was not supposed to make the club. It took Wise quite awhile to heal from a serious ankle injury and when he did Q got banged. So where is the death grip?

The grip was that Ross was also Krivsky's guy, and he kept Q over him. And there was really no reason for that at all.

You certainly are right that no GM is perfect, but Krivsky does remind me a lot of Bowden in that he'll take a flyer on almost anything to see if this part or that will fit. But Bowden had a weakness for "5 tool" players. As a result he often found good fielding no hit guys that he thought might hit if "taught" properly. He was also pretty good at assembling a deep bullpen. Krivsky looks to be leaning toward assembling a better pen, but it's been slow going and largely unsuccessful so far. we'll see how the latest three aquisitions fare.

Krivsky is a huge upgrade to DanO, but we better be hoping for a better comparison to make than that. I have yet to see that he is better than Bowden. And IMO he was just fleeced by JimBo. Especially if Bowden gets a max return on Soriano. After the trade, Bowden was on Baseball Tonight and said there were three teams calling everyday about Soriano. This wasn't bragging. it was a calculated "slip" to let teams know the price just went up. Now if he can just get better talent evaluators around him in the pitching department...

Caveat Emperor
07-18-2006, 03:21 PM
I can't believe the Rangers would want that deal. (I'll take it though)

Who knows -- the Rangers are going with ex-Red farmhand John Koronka as a starter. Maybe they think Justin Germano is a guy who could step in and perform better. Or, maybe they get someone like a Germano and then that frees them to move a pitcher to get talent someplace else.

Coffey is a young guy with closer-type stuff while Otsuka is over 30, so maybe they think Coffey can step right into the closer spot. Shack is pretty damn effective as a LOOGY, so they'd be getting that out of the deal. TC has already enumerated earlier that a lot of teams think highly of Standridge's stuff, and that he just needs to get his head screwed on straight to be a good reliever. The team doesn't have a ton of pop in the lineup (Wilkerson leads the squad w/ 14 HRs), so getting LaRue would give them a bat that can hit for a bit of power. LaRue could C or DH for them and give the team another longball threat.

It'd be a "quantity over quality" trade for the Rangers -- they get 3 bullpen arms and a bat or two with pop -- the Reds get 2 bullpen arms and a young MI.

You gotta remember -- teams have their own reasons for valuing players. We all found that out first hand last week. If the Rangers are high on guys like Germano and Coffey, the Reds can take them to the cleaners a little bit for it.

It does seem a lil' too good to be true, but I'm sure the Nats fans thought the same thing last week.

flyer85
07-18-2006, 03:24 PM
Why in the world would the Rangers want to deal Kinsler?

TRF
07-18-2006, 03:27 PM
Guardado is 35 years old, has a $6.3MM pricetag, is a free agent at the end of the season, and was getting slapped around like Farrah Fawcett in 'The Burning Bed' at the time of the trade.

Majewski & Bray are both young, earning close to the minimum, controlled by the Reds for another 4-6 years, and were pitching very well at the time of the trade.

Apples and oranges my friend.

Majewski has been ridden like Hidalgo the past season and a half, has poor K/9 numbers, and show no signs so far to be a better value in the pen that Kearns was in RF. Bray is very young, and LH and could easily go all Ryan Wagner on the Reds... the good Wagner or the Bad. I like taking chances on young LH pitching like that, But Kearns, FeLo and a throwin is too much for a tired (maybe) reliever and a relative unknown in Bray.

The price was too high.

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 03:29 PM
Why in the world would the Rangers want to deal Kinsler?


He has gotten hurt a bit this year, and I believe he has some injury past in the minor leagues. Maybe they like that Drew Meyer kid better and want to give him a chance? Meyer, from what I've seen has a tremendous glove at 2B. Granted, I've only seen him a handful of times, but he can make some plays...

Maybe with Mark DeRosa's hot bat they're willing to give him an everyday job now? :dunno:

flyer85
07-18-2006, 03:31 PM
Maybe they like that Drew Meyer kid better and want to give him a chance? Meyer, from what I've seen has a tremendous glove at 2B. Granted, I've only seen him a handful of times, but he can make some plays...and has proven completely unable to hit. The Rangers left him unprotected in the Rule V draft this offseason.

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 03:41 PM
and has proven completely unable to hit. The Rangers left him unprotected in the Rule V draft this offseason.

I'm not arguing with you at all. I have no rational explanation as to why they would deal Kinsler. Out of Kinsler, Meyer, and DeRosa, Kinsler is the one I'd keep 100 times out of 100. I'm just trying to throw something out there as to why they may think they can part with him....

They do have some options at 2B in house already...although they aren't options I would go to if I were a GM. I guess that's the only thing I can come up with.

Joseph
07-18-2006, 03:44 PM
I'm a self admitted LaRue apologist, but I'd take that deal.

acredsfan
07-18-2006, 03:49 PM
In that deal its not so much LaRue I'd hate to part with but Coffey. I don't know why, he just seems like a hard worker and an all around good guy. Other than that and he can throw hard I have no real reason..... Anyway, as usual, thanks for your insight TC, this is one thread that i hope never dies. I think you've quickly become the most popular poster here.

Krusty
07-18-2006, 03:50 PM
I know. I wanted to make you laugh.

OK. Here is a deal that had been proposed. I know this to be true. Not sure if it is still feasable, died, rejuvenated, etc... This deal was being discussed in the seat next to me and the names were written on yellow legal pad. I Was sitting next to Mel Didier and Tom Giordano both of the Texas Rangers. There was also some mention of waiting to see when Eaton came off the DL to get the deal done that way. AGAIN, this deal may have died or barely lifted off the ground. This was the week prior to the AS break.

Rangers were giving up: Ian Kinsler, Joaquin Benoit, and Otsuka

Reds were parting with: Justin Germano, Todd Coffey, Jason LaRue. The Rangers wanted to add Rich Aurillia OR Shackelford/Standridge.

The Reds would be crazy not to make that deal. I would add either Shackelford or Standridge to the deal. Hate to lose Coffey but Benoit and Otsuka make up the loss. If there is a holdup to the deal, it would be waiting for Ross to come off the DL in order to make LaRue available.

corkedbat
07-18-2006, 03:53 PM
The Reds would be crazy not to make that deal. I would add either Shackelford or Standridge to the deal. Hate to lose Coffey but Benoit and Otsuka make up the loss. If there is a holdup to the deal, it would be waiting for Ross to come off the DL in order to make LaRue available.

If that were really the only holdup, I could live with Sardinha or Perez as a backup for a few games.

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 03:54 PM
If that were really the only holdup, I could live with Sardinha or Perez as a backup for a few games.

True dat. I could live with Hatteberg being the emergency backup and giving Valentin every start if that were the only holdup.

Krusty
07-18-2006, 03:56 PM
I'm not arguing with you at all. I have no rational explanation as to why they would deal Kinsler. Out of Kinsler, Meyer, and DeRosa, Kinsler is the one I'd keep 100 times out of 100. I'm just trying to throw something out there as to why they may think they can part with him....

They do have some options at 2B in house already...although they aren't options I would go to if I were a GM. I guess that's the only thing I can come up with.

Do we actually have a rational explanation why Krivsky dealt Felipe Lopez?

If anything, I could see the Reds giving an infielder like Harris or Olmedo in return.

pedro
07-18-2006, 03:58 PM
Do we actually have a rational explanation why Krivsky dealt Felipe Lopez?



yes we do. He'sa horrible fielding SS who isn't hiting all that well and is due a big payday in the offseason.

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 04:06 PM
yes we do. He'sa horrible fielding SS who isn't hiting all that well and is due a big payday in the offseason.

Exactly. Kinsler doesn't meet any of that criterion. He has never been reported as being a clubhouse cancer, etc. (not saying that Lopez was, just that there are no signs that Kinsler is anything but a young, hard working player - one that I would do cartwheels over if the Reds did acquire).

Krusty
07-18-2006, 04:07 PM
If you're the Rangers, I don't see the need for LaRue unless they are planning to move one of their catchers. And do they think that highly of Coffey that they would package Benoit and Ostuka in the same deal? Those two stats stand above what Coffey has done. As for adding Germosa and either Shackelford or Standridge to the deal, basically they are throw-ins.

Now if I was the Rangers and I was offering Kinsler, Benoit and Ostuka, here is what I want in return:

1. Ryan Freel
2. Todd Coffey
3. Jason Standridge
4. Justin Germano
5. Brian Shackelford

corkedbat
07-18-2006, 04:09 PM
True dat. I could live with Hatteberg being the emergency backup and giving Valentin every start if that were the only holdup.

Playing Valentin as the number one for a solid block of games could really kick start his bat for the stretch drive too.

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 04:10 PM
If you're the Rangers, I don't see the need for LaRue unless they are planning to move one of their catchers. And do they think that highly of Coffey that they would package Benoit and Ostuka in the same deal? Those two stats stand above what Coffey has done. As for adding Germosa and either Shackelford or Standridge to the deal, basically they are throw-ins.

Now if I was the Rangers and I was offering Kinsler, Benoit and Ostuka, here is what I want in return:

1. Ryan Freel
2. Todd Coffey
3. Jason Standridge
4. Justin Germano
5. Brian Shackelford


...and I'd still make that deal. Corrected your post. It's Germano, not Germosa.

Krusty
07-18-2006, 04:13 PM
Supposedly the Rangers are putting OF Kevin Mench on the block since he will be a free agent. Any chance you think the Reds would show interest?

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 04:14 PM
Supposedly the Rangers are putting OF Kevin Mench on the block since he will be a free agent. Any chance you think the Reds would show interest?

Not at the price they will demand for him. They're just throwing his name out there and hoping that with so many big market teams needing OF and RH bat help, someone will overpay.

acredsfan
07-18-2006, 05:03 PM
Supposedly the Rangers are putting OF Kevin Mench on the block since he will be a free agent. Any chance you think the Reds would show interest?If Dano Was still in charge we'd be getting him no matter what the price, but with Krivsky, I doubt he'd be dumb enough to hand over what they would be asking for.

cincyinco
07-18-2006, 05:15 PM
You may be right about the residual love for Casey but that doesn't change the fact that Hatteberg is exceeding all reasonable expectations. He's basically on pace for a career season at the age of 36 - almost unheard of. His BA is 40 points over his career avg., his OBP is 49 points over his career avg. and his SLG is a whopping 72 points over career average. I give the guy all the credit in the world but I don't think anyone could expect him to keep up that scorching pace for the rest of the season.

I sure will be rooting for him to do it though.

You also haev to take into account Hatte's home park for the duration of his career in Oakland. Quite a pitchers park... and could have quite an adverse affect on his production. If you believe GAB to be a "hitters haven" on top of that, especially for lefties - and factor in a change to the NL, well - I'm not exactly shocked that he's having a good year. Better than I expected, but still, he's not as big a surprise as say... Brandon Phillips or Dave Ross has been.

cincyinco
07-18-2006, 05:18 PM
I know. I wanted to make you laugh.

OK. Here is a deal that had been proposed. I know this to be true. Not sure if it is still feasable, died, rejuvenated, etc... This deal was being discussed in the seat next to me and the names were written on yellow legal pad. I Was sitting next to Mel Didier and Tom Giordano both of the Texas Rangers. There was also some mention of waiting to see when Eaton came off the DL to get the deal done that way. AGAIN, this deal may have died or barely lifted off the ground. This was the week prior to the AS break.

Rangers were giving up: Ian Kinsler, Joaquin Benoit, and Otsuka

Reds were parting with: Justin Germano, Todd Coffey, Jason LaRue. The Rangers wanted to add Rich Aurillia OR Shackelford/Standridge.

Why didn't we jump all over this again? The only name I even like from the Reds side is Coffey... Kinsler would be amazing to acquire. If this deal went down, I would go nuts. Kinsler is awesome.

Joseph
07-18-2006, 05:19 PM
Playing Valentin as the number one for a solid block of games could really kick start his bat for the stretch drive too.

Or expose him as a career back up....either or.

Team Clark
07-18-2006, 05:22 PM
Or expose him as a career back up....either or.

Nah... He's a career platooner. (if there is such a word) :laugh:

Hey, I see that Cliff Politte is available....to throw batting practice. Geez. 8.70 ERA. 1 Run shy of having a perfect 9.00 ERA. Dag gone. :evil:

smith288
07-18-2006, 05:28 PM
Nah... He's a career platooner. (if there is such a word) :laugh:

He is also on the list of "dumbest hitters" is he not?

cincyinco
07-18-2006, 05:29 PM
If you're the Rangers, I don't see the need for LaRue unless they are planning to move one of their catchers. And do they think that highly of Coffey that they would package Benoit and Ostuka in the same deal? Those two stats stand above what Coffey has done. As for adding Germosa and either Shackelford or Standridge to the deal, basically they are throw-ins.

Now if I was the Rangers and I was offering Kinsler, Benoit and Ostuka, here is what I want in return:

1. Ryan Freel
2. Todd Coffey
3. Jason Standridge
4. Justin Germano
5. Brian Shackelford

For whatever reason, the Rangers DO NOT value Gerald Laird.. at all. He was ready a couple of years back, got injured, and had his job taken from him. He spent all of last year in AAA, even though he'd has previous success at the ML Level. This year, he's relegated to backup duties to Barajas. Woo. The Rangers seemingly do not value Laird for any reason, so it doesn't surprise me they would have some interest in Larue.

Even with your proposed scenario above, I'd do it... Freel? I like the guys hustle, but Kinsler seems to be a premium bat. His rise through the minors was meteoric. The Reds have been rumored to be interested in him for a couple years now if I'm not mistaken. Should have gotten him a year or two ago.

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 05:45 PM
He is also on the list of "dumbest hitters" is he not?

If I remember the list correctly, no, he was not on the list.....suprisingly.:laugh:

somethingtony
07-18-2006, 06:49 PM
please TC tell me that there is still a chance to get Kinsler.....

Handofdeath
07-18-2006, 07:07 PM
Majewski has been ridden like Hidalgo the past season and a half, has poor K/9 numbers, and show no signs so far to be a better value in the pen that Kearns was in RF. Bray is very young, and LH and could easily go all Ryan Wagner on the Reds... the good Wagner or the Bad. I like taking chances on young LH pitching like that, But Kearns, FeLo and a throwin is too much for a tired (maybe) reliever and a relative unknown in Bray.

The price was too high.
A man once told me that the goal of offense in baseball is to avoid outs and getting on base is most important no matter how many strikeouts a batter might have. True or not, This is what I have been told. Let's turn that around and say that the K/9 numbers are much less important for a pitcher than their opponents OBP. Majewski's numbers are around .333. If he were a starter he would be Top 30 to 40 in the NL. Point of fact, his K/9 numbers combined with his OBP are very similar with another pitcher this season in the NL. The name? Dontrelle Willis.

Dunner44
07-18-2006, 10:03 PM
You also haev to take into account Hatte's home park for the duration of his career in Oakland. Quite a pitchers park... and could have quite an adverse affect on his production. If you believe GAB to be a "hitters haven" on top of that, especially for lefties - and factor in a change to the NL, well - I'm not exactly shocked that he's having a good year. Better than I expected, but still, he's not as big a surprise as say... Brandon Phillips or Dave Ross has been.

Scott has also been mostly used in a platoon role this year, minimizing his number of ABs against left handed pitchers, which is huge. On the season, Scott is batting .322 while slugging .498 and reaching base at a .417 clip vs. right handed pitchers (205 ABs). He's only had 49 ABs vs. Lefty pitchers, batting .265, slugging .429, OBP .377. In past years he was an everyday starter, so I attribute a lot of his success to the platoon with him and RA (which is another reason EE should play every day, or at least every time a lefty pitches)

CougarQuest
07-19-2006, 12:55 AM
Rangers were giving up: Ian Kinsler, Joaquin Benoit, and Otsuka

Reds were parting with: Justin Germano, Todd Coffey, Jason LaRue. The Rangers wanted to add Rich Aurillia OR Shackelford/Standridge.


Oh yeah!!! Me likey. Now that Shack is out of his legal problems, this will be no problem.

CougarQuest
07-19-2006, 12:58 AM
Now if I was the Rangers and I was offering Kinsler, Benoit and Ostuka, here is what I want in return:

1. Ryan Freel
2. Todd Coffey
3. Jason Standridge
4. Justin Germano
5. Brian Shackelford
Done even quicker!

CougarQuest
07-19-2006, 01:08 AM
You know, when Krivsky got Brendan Harris, he made a comment about him reminding the fans of Freel without the speed. I found that interesting, for a guy who was being immediately designated to AAA, as it could be taken a couple of ways. Did he see Harris as a utility player? Was Harris going to replace Freel because of an upcoming trade? Will Freel be too expensive after this season for his designated use for the Reds? Or was he just complimenting Harris for his hustle? Perhaps all the above?

Team Clark
07-19-2006, 01:23 AM
You know, when Krivsky got Brendan Harris, he made a comment about him reminding the fans of Freel without the speed. I found that interesting, for a guy who was being immediately designated to AAA, as it could be taken a couple of ways. Did he see Harris as a utility player? Was Harris going to replace Freel because of an upcoming trade? Will Freel be too expensive after this season for his designated use for the Reds? Or was he just complimenting Harris for his hustle? Perhaps all the above?

Great question... only the Nose knows. I like your modified trade proposal. If I knew Mel Diddier better I'd find a way to get ahold of him and ask him if that trade proposal has progressed.

RedsIn07
07-19-2006, 02:53 AM
http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/JonSton41/th_kinsler.jpg

:evil:

Blue
07-19-2006, 02:59 AM
http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/JonSton41/th_kinsler.jpg

:evil:

EXCELLENT! :beerme:

Ron Madden
07-19-2006, 05:52 AM
I'm a self admitted LaRue apologist, but I'd take that deal.


Me too. :)

redsmetz
07-19-2006, 06:28 AM
You know, when Krivsky got Brendan Harris, he made a comment about him reminding the fans of Freel without the speed. I found that interesting, for a guy who was being immediately designated to AAA, as it could be taken a couple of ways. Did he see Harris as a utility player? Was Harris going to replace Freel because of an upcoming trade? Will Freel be too expensive after this season for his designated use for the Reds? Or was he just complimenting Harris for his hustle? Perhaps all the above?

Freel signed a two year $3 Million deal and that's gone up 300K with this 200+ plate appearances, so he'll make $2 Million next year.

smith288
07-19-2006, 09:39 AM
I sorta wonder with all these moves how the chemistry is working out for the Reds.

I realize many think that its an overrated idea to have good chemistry but I felt like the team had awesome chemistry when they were on their run but watching the team recently and it feels like they arent playing as a unit.

Could be a bunch of them slumping or it could be they dont gel well. I dunno. I just hope Narron pulls his head out of his dark regions as we press on with the season.

TRF
07-19-2006, 09:57 AM
A man once told me that the goal of offense in baseball is to avoid outs and getting on base is most important no matter how many strikeouts a batter might have. True or not, This is what I have been told. Let's turn that around and say that the K/9 numbers are much less important for a pitcher than their opponents OBP. Majewski's numbers are around .333. If he were a starter he would be Top 30 to 40 in the NL. Point of fact, his K/9 numbers combined with his OBP are very similar with another pitcher this season in the NL. The name? Dontrelle Willis.

Except for pitchers K's are important. They remove doubt. Low K pitchers are not as successful as high K pitchers. Dontrelle Willis has had a declining K rate for four years now. His OPSA has been steadily rising, and he's had a pretty crappy year. His ERA is near 4, and while he strung together a few decent starts, he got hammered his last time out. All his peripherals show why he has stunk this year. But if you want to hold on to wins/losses as your metric then Roger Clemons must have sucked alot last year. Sometimes the offense has a thing or two to say about a pitcher getting wins. Last year, the Rocket should have won 18-20 games. In fact had he Willis run support, he would have.

Relievers have even a lower margin for error. relievers that K a ton of guys while keeping the BB's down are successful. those that don't and have success rely on being a certain "type" of pitcher: flyball in a cavernous park, or groundball with a good defense behind him.

StillFunkyB
07-19-2006, 10:19 AM
Ian Kinsler would be nice.

LaRue would be a heck of alot closer to home.

I'd give em Shack, AND Stand if they would still do it.

Team Clark
07-19-2006, 10:22 AM
He is also on the list of "dumbest hitters" is he not?


No, he was not on that list. I've seen Javy quite a bit and I can't say he gives away a lot of AB's.

smith288
07-19-2006, 10:47 AM
Way off topic here...but whats up with the new avatar. lol

Dunner44
07-19-2006, 11:54 AM
My lord TC, please change that picture post haste.... *shudder*

RedEye
07-19-2006, 12:19 PM
Back on the Kinsler trade, I have to think that Texas backed out on that one. Kinsler would be great, yes, but if we ALSO got Benoit and Otsuka, our bullpen would be unstoppable. If he pulled that one off, I'd be back on the Krivsky bandwagon without a doubt (I've got one leg sort of hanging off the back tailgate right now).

Jpup
07-19-2006, 12:45 PM
My lord TC, please change that picture post haste.... *shudder*

I agree.:eek:

smith288
07-19-2006, 01:03 PM
THe only way TC could have turned this into the "Best Thread evah" thread into something else is to use a MySpace-esque type of mug shot for an avatar. LOL

pedro
07-19-2006, 01:09 PM
My lord TC, please change that picture post haste.... *shudder*

In the court of the crimson king?

http://www.geocities.com/crimson_espanol/imagenes/court.jpg

Team Clark
07-19-2006, 01:47 PM
My lord TC, please change that picture post haste.... *shudder*

My Daughter took that. She has her own computer and keeps that picture as her desktop background. If I hear a screaching laugh out of nowhere I know it's her.

Team Clark
07-19-2006, 01:51 PM
Way off topic here...but whats up with the new avatar. lol


Ok Ok... due to an immense amount of peer pressure the Avatar has been changed. I'm not 100% comitted to the picture I have up but it will do. I was looking for the pic of the Great Don Zimmer and I but I can not find it. :thumbdown


Alright... I changed it once more. This is a picture of my World Series ring. This is a stock photo but it looks exactly like mine.

Team Clark
07-19-2006, 01:56 PM
In the court of the crimson king?

http://www.geocities.com/crimson_espanol/imagenes/court.jpg

Amazing the similarities??

smith288
07-19-2006, 01:56 PM
How about this one?

http://www.gothamist.com/images/2003_10_zimmer.jpg

michst
07-19-2006, 01:58 PM
I liked the hulk hogan picture.

Red Leader
07-19-2006, 01:59 PM
Or, this one.

http://espn.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/040220_zimmer.jpg

Team Clark
07-19-2006, 02:00 PM
I liked the hulk hogan picture.

I did too. If you PM me I'll send it to you. It was time for a change.

smith288
07-19-2006, 02:04 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/zimmer_don1013.jpg

Heath
07-19-2006, 02:05 PM
Or this one.

http://home.pon.net/hunnicutt/images/zimmer.jpg

TC - Try images.google.com and type in Don Zimmer.

He's even an D-Ray!

Editors Note - Any thread entitled 'The Skinny" and the words Don Zimmer located in the same thread is about as oxymoronic as one can get :D

Team Clark
07-19-2006, 02:08 PM
Back on the Kinsler trade, I have to think that Texas backed out on that one. Kinsler would be great, yes, but if we ALSO got Benoit and Otsuka, our bullpen would be unstoppable. If he pulled that one off, I'd be back on the Krivsky bandwagon without a doubt (I've got one leg sort of hanging off the back tailgate right now).

Otsuka is ridiculous. I know he's over 30, but so is Guardado...

Kinsler and Phillips up the middle would work for me. If the Reds were able to hang onto Freel then Freel could give Kinsler a rest. Knowing Kinsler's past injuries that would be a great option. Benoit would be a very useful long man and the Reds would not miss Coffey in that deal. I personally would give them everyone they asked for, if in fact that entire deal was proposed as written.

Team Clark
07-19-2006, 02:10 PM
Smith and Heath... your pictures together remind me of "Skinny" elvis and "Fat" Elvis. I'll see Don in a few weeks, maybe I'll get another pic with him that I can post.

smith288
07-19-2006, 02:23 PM
Smith and Heath... your pictures together remind me of "Skinny" elvis and "Fat" Elvis. I'll see Don in a few weeks, maybe I'll get another pic with him that I can post.
I should try to post my own pic sporting my Clipper uniform. I think you all would get a kick out of it....if I can find it.

Heath
07-19-2006, 02:26 PM
I should try to post my own pic sporting my Clipper uniform. I think you all would get a kick out of it....if I can find it.

Your Clipper Uniform or the Picture?

:D

smith288
07-19-2006, 02:32 PM
Your Clipper Uniform or the Picture?

:D
Ill post a picture of the picture.

deltachi8
07-19-2006, 04:40 PM
I personally would give them everyone they asked for, if in fact that entire deal was proposed as written.

I would agree with you on that one.

One would have some hope that the playing time RA is getting over Edwin may be a bit of showcasing for such a deal.

smith288
07-19-2006, 04:52 PM
I would agree with you on that one.

One would have some hope that the playing time RA is getting over Edwin may be a bit of showcasing for such a deal.
Yea... We all wish...


I'm the magical man, from Happy Land, living in a gumdrop house on lollipop lane!

FutureRedsGM
07-20-2006, 10:51 AM
Just an FYI, I asked the guy at mlbtraderumors.com about the Ian Kinsler, RA / Coffey trade and he said that his "Sources" haven't mentioned anything about it and he can't see the Rangers making this deal without getting a REAL prospect or a ML ready starter in return.

Heath
07-20-2006, 11:01 AM
Just an FYI, I asked the guy at mlbtraderumors.com about the Ian Kinsler, RA / Coffey trade and he said that his "Sources" haven't mentioned anything about it and he can't see the Rangers making this deal without getting a REAL prospect or a ML ready starter in return.

Then if mlbtraderumors.com says its dead, then it must be alive.

:D

Steve4192
07-20-2006, 11:02 AM
Just an FYI, I asked the guy at mlbtraderumors.com about the Ian Kinsler, RA / Coffey trade and he said that his "Sources" haven't mentioned anything about it and he can't see the Rangers making this deal without getting a REAL prospect or a ML ready starter in return.

I'm guessing you would have got the same response two weeks ago regarding the Reds trading Kearns+Lopez to the Nat's for a couple of middle relievers.

Dunner44
07-20-2006, 11:27 AM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48883


hehehe

corkedbat
07-20-2006, 11:43 AM
Think if I tell them I've heard from inside sources about a big deal between the Reds and Phils (Milton, Aurillia, LaRue, Claussen and Shackleford for Hamels, Utley and Myers) they'd print it?

Maybe it will gain momentum. :pimp:

smith288
07-20-2006, 12:20 PM
I heard that the Yanks are sending ARod to the Reds as well as covering the rest of his salary the Rangers arent paying for Freel, Milton and Aurilia!

:D

Crash Davis
07-20-2006, 07:55 PM
I don't think a 1-1 of Bailey or Bruce would get it done for Wood. That wouldn't really get the Angels anywhere. I'm guessing the only way we get Wood is if we give up Harang, Arroyo or Dunn. I would say EE could be a base to a trade, but they really don't need a 3B or 1B. So, I'd probably stick with Arroyo, Harang, and Dunn, and I don't think any of those three are going anywhere, unless this team is going to be totally overhauled, which I still doubt.

Not bloody likely. Bruce & Bailey are both more talented and have higher ceilings than Brandon Wood. He has severe contact issues and questions about his ultimate major league defensive position.

I'd rather have Encarnacion than Brandon Wood...not to mention Dunn, Harang or Arroyo.

M2
07-20-2006, 08:33 PM
TC, I've got no problem with the assertion that Austin Keans is a bit of dog, been saying that for years. Yet he's still a dog with some bite (and Frank Robinson may be just the guy to curb him). Had the Reds moved Kearns for Bray, I wouldn't have a single problem with the deal.

That the Reds were looking to trade ANY everyday player for Majewski strikes me as a serious talent estimation mistake. Majewski just doesn't have the stuff to warrant that kind of deal. Some pitchers have to be careful about what they put in the strikezone. As he's shown since his arrival in Cincinnati, hitters can even put Majewski's stuff out of the zone into play. Xavier Nady today got his bat on a ball from Majewski in a spot (in under his hands) that's almost a sure swinging strike when other pitchers hit that spot.

Team Clark
07-20-2006, 10:38 PM
TC, I've got no problem with the assertion that Austin Keans is a bit of dog, been saying that for years. Yet he's still a dog with some bite (and Frank Robinson may be just the guy to curb him). Had the Reds moved Kearns for Bray, I wouldn't have a single problem with the deal.

That the Reds were looking to trade ANY everyday player for Majewski strikes me as a serious talent estimation mistake. Majewski just doesn't have the stuff to warrant that kind of deal. Some pitchers have to be careful about what they put in the strikezone. As he's shown since his arrival in Cincinnati, hitters can even put Majewski's stuff out of the zone into play. Xavier Nady today got his bat on a ball from Majewski in a spot (in under his hands) that's almost a sure swinging strike when other pitchers hit that spot.

I can't say I disagree with your view on Kearns. Someone said that he will be an ALL Star for years to come. Maybe, just not in Cincy. If you can't learn from Frank Robinson well then.....

The jury is still out on Magic. I'd take Otsuka over him but we'll never know. I like Magic over Weathers, Standridge and White... I guess you could look at it that way.

Shaggy Sanchez
07-20-2006, 11:02 PM
I can't say I disagree with your view on Kearns. Someone said that he will be an ALL Star for years to come. Maybe, just not in Cincy. If you can't learn from Frank Robinson well then.....

The jury is still out on Magic. I'd take Otsuka over him but we'll never know. I like Magic over Weathers, Standridge and White... I guess you could look at it that way.

True, I like Majewski over all the guys listed but I would prefer to have Lopez or Kearns and Bray over Bray and Majewski. I feel that they could have gotten someone with Majewski's talent although older for a lot less than an everyday player.

Team Clark
07-20-2006, 11:16 PM
True, I like Majewski over all the guys listed but I would prefer to have Lopez or Kearns and Bray over Bray and Majewski. I feel that they could have gotten someone with Majewski's talent although older for a lot less than an everyday player.

Maybe, but do not think Wayne did not try... it's not like trading baseball cards with your younger brother. He tried to get Nathan and the Twins wouldn't budge. I would have taken Nathan over Magic.

Spring~Fields
07-20-2006, 11:44 PM
TC what do baseball insiders i.e. "baseball people" think that the Reds current GM is going to have to accomplish this year and the following to make the Reds a strong consistent contender? Not a fans or talk show host or baseball writer opinions but true baseball insiders perspectives, what do you and they think he'll have to address and achieve?

Team Clark
07-21-2006, 12:03 AM
TC what do baseball insiders i.e. "baseball people" think that the Reds current GM is going to have to accomplish this year and the following to make the Reds a strong consistent contender? Not a fans or talk show host or baseball writer opinions but true baseball insiders perspectives, what do you and they think he'll have to address and achieve?

We really do not sit around and discuss other teams GM's on a rehular basis. If a story comes up, a trade is made, or a bidding war for a player has errupted, we may discuss the state of a team or the GM specifically. That just happened with the Nationals trade. Not to say these conversations do not happen, just not every day. I have heard a lot of great comments about Wayne and the job he has done but I can't say that I have had a ton of dialogue about the Reds during games. I have had a great deal of conversation with several Reds employees about the Reds and the state of the Reds. By employees I do not mean elevator operators, ushers or ticket takers. I do not work for the Reds, therefore, I don't talk about them first in any conversation.

flyer85
07-21-2006, 12:07 AM
I would have taken Nathan over Magic.so would everyone else on the planet. :D

Team Clark
07-21-2006, 12:09 AM
so would everyone else on the planet. :D

That certainly does fall under the "well duh" section doesn't it? :laugh:

Krusty
07-21-2006, 12:26 AM
I think Krivsky was looking for bullpen help for not only the remainder of the 2006 but the next two years too. Thus the deal with Washington, which came at a higher price tag.

I'll say it again....the Reds didn't give up anything substantial in the farm system. It wouldn't surprise me to see either Dunn or Griffey moved this offseason as Krivsky retools the team to his liking.

LoganBuck
07-21-2006, 12:44 AM
What is left on Griffey's contract, and what kind of a market/standing does he really have left in the game? Stud, serviceable, average, dud, or has been?

redsupport
07-21-2006, 01:02 AM
unfortunately the market for grifffey is equal to the market for Studebaker or Edsel

Spring~Fields
07-21-2006, 02:27 AM
as Krivsky retools the team to his liking.

I believe that he is retooling also, of course we all knew he has to in light of the past years records and attendance decline.

That was why I was interested in what those in the business/baseball people might be thinking out loud around the preverbial water cooler at times, refering to what Krivsky would have to accomplish or achieve in steps to get the Reds significantly over .500 and into a stronger contender role. Fans, baseball writers and talk show host have many great insights but the perspective of those in the business might be different, maybe not. So I was just wondering because we know the general or generic terms tossed around, more pitching, better defense, impact players on offense and of course a larger budget. I guess I was looking for a bit more specific insight from the business side.

RadfordVA
07-21-2006, 02:35 AM
unfortunately the market for grifffey is equal to the market for Studebaker or Edsel


Studebaker and Edsel. Are these guys any good? If they can get outs late in the game do you think we can trade Majik for them. Griffey's market is the same as antique cars because there both priceless.

cincyinco
07-21-2006, 05:06 AM
Edsel? That guy is ancient... junk. Way past his prime. A has been and a never was...

http://lenwoodva.tripod.com/ford_edsel.JPG

redsmetz
07-21-2006, 06:36 AM
What is left on Griffey's contract, and what kind of a market/standing does he really have left in the game? Stud, serviceable, average, dud, or has been?

According to Cot's, 12.5 MIL through 2008, club option of $16 MIL (4 MIL buyout) for 2009.

Team Clark
07-23-2006, 08:41 PM
The Reds have officially entered the Julio Lugo sweepstakes. Two young pitchers and one vet. Toronto still has the best offer on the table. I will be in Syracuse to see some of their AAA talent and we already have one other guy looking at New Hampshire AA. Boston has made some serious inquiries but we expect them to trade Lowell today or tomorrow. The dominos are starting to fall.

joshnky
07-23-2006, 08:47 PM
Do you have any idea what they're offering?

Caveat Emperor
07-23-2006, 08:48 PM
Do you have any idea what they're offering?

I highly doubt it'd be worth his job to repost a trade offer on a public forum.

Just a hunch, though. :thumbup:

BCubb2003
07-23-2006, 08:50 PM
The Reds have officially entered the Julio Lugo sweepstakes. Two young pitchers and one vet. Toronto still has the best offer on the table. I will be in Syracuse to see some of their AAA talent and we already have one other guy looking at New Hampshire AA. Boston has made some serious inquiries but we expect them to trade Lowell today or tomorrow. The dominos are starting to fall.

Welcome to Syracuse.

Chip R
07-23-2006, 08:52 PM
The Reds have officially entered the Julio Lugo sweepstakes. Two young pitchers and one vet. Toronto still has the best offer on the table. I will be in Syracuse to see some of their AAA talent and we already have one other guy looking at New Hampshire AA. Boston has made some serious inquiries but we expect them to trade Lowell today or tomorrow. The dominos are starting to fall.

Can he pitch?

joshnky
07-23-2006, 08:56 PM
Lugo would be an upgrade offensively over what we have and his numbers even look better than Lopez but defensively (12 errors) isn't too great. If all we give up is Castro, Aurilia, or Royce along with some minor league fodder then I wouldn't be aopposed to it but it seems that his price will be a little higher. I would be shocked if Krivsky makes this trade.

maniem
07-23-2006, 08:57 PM
If this is true, why in the world did we take Clayton? Were we forced to take him with Bray and Magic?

Joseph
07-23-2006, 09:01 PM
Lugo would be an upgrade offensively over what we have and his numbers even look better than Lopez but defensively (12 errors) isn't too great. If all we give up is Castro, Aurilia, or Royce along with some minor league fodder then I wouldn't be aopposed to it but it seems that his price will be a little higher. I would be shocked if Krivsky makes this trade.

Thats kind of how I feel, if its a 2 month rental [+ hopefully the post season] then I can't imagine giving up too much that the D-Rays would want, unless all the rumors I hear are greatly exaggerated about what they expect in return.

Caveat Emperor
07-23-2006, 09:06 PM
Thats kind of how I feel, if its a 2 month rental [+ hopefully the post season] then I can't imagine giving up too much that the D-Rays would want, unless all the rumors I hear are greatly exaggerated about what they expect in return.

I'd be shocked if the Reds offered more than something like James Avery, Justin Germano and Juan Castro. Ryan Freel might be a guy that would move in a deal like this (a team like TB would probably like the versatility-on-a-budget play of Freel).

I don't like it -- save the trading chips for when teams start selling off pitching in the near future. I'm not too worried, though; this reeks of a "we'll put the feelers out" kind of situation.

joshnky
07-23-2006, 09:08 PM
The Reds have officially entered the Julio Lugo sweepstakes. Two young pitchers and one vet. Toronto still has the best offer on the table. I will be in Syracuse to see some of their AAA talent and we already have one other guy looking at New Hampshire AA. Boston has made some serious inquiries but we expect them to trade Lowell today or tomorrow. The dominos are starting to fall.

Boston trading Lowell to San Diego (maybe?) scares me. He has played well for the Red Sox this year and should really help improve Sand Diego offensively. If pitching is as highly valued this year as it seems to be SD might not even have to give up much (Linebrink the prime target) in return. This could mean trouble for us in the WC chase, especially because it may prompt several other moves out West.

joshnky
07-23-2006, 09:10 PM
I'd be shocked if the Reds offered more than something like James Avery, Justin Germano and Juan Castro. Ryan Freel might be a guy that would move in a deal like this (a team like TB would probably like the versatility-on-a-budget play of Freel).

I don't like it -- save the trading chips for when teams start selling off pitching in the near future. I'm not too worried, though; this reeks of a "we'll put the feelers out" kind of situation.

The more I think about it the less this trade makes sense unless its part of a multiteam deal that involves pitching. I doubt Krivsky is stupid enough to give up value to add a player who isn't really a need. Say what you may about the Nationals deal but at least he was trying to fill our most glaring need.

Jpup
07-23-2006, 09:13 PM
Boston trading Lowell to San Diego (maybe?) scares me. He has played well for the Red Sox this year and should really help improve Sand Diego offensively. If pitching is as highly valued this year as it seems to be SD might not even have to give up much (Linebrink the prime target) in return. This could mean trouble for us in the WC chase, especially because it may prompt several other moves out West.

Theo is not trading Lowell if you believe the Boston papers.

nmculbreth
07-23-2006, 09:14 PM
The Reds have officially entered the Julio Lugo sweepstakes. Two young pitchers and one vet. Toronto still has the best offer on the table. I will be in Syracuse to see some of their AAA talent and we already have one other guy looking at New Hampshire AA. Boston has made some serious inquiries but we expect them to trade Lowell today or tomorrow. The dominos are starting to fall.

Interesting, that's kind of a suprise given Tampa Bay's reported asking price and Lugo's defensive deficiencies. As much as I love what Lugo brings to the table offensively it doesn't make any sense for the Reds to trade away Lopez partly because of his defensive shortcomings and then trade away quality prospects for a two month rental with similar problems.

As always TC, I really appreciate your unique insight.

Joseph
07-23-2006, 09:15 PM
Theo is not trading Lowell if you believe the Boston papers.

Every other paper and net source seems to believe otherwise though.

Mario-Rijo
07-23-2006, 09:15 PM
I like the deal. Lugo is a very good offensive SS and he isn't likely as deficient at defense as Felipe was. Let's not forget that Felipe wasn't necc. meant to go but we had to part with him. Clayton or Castro, Germano & a low level guy? I would rather deal Clayton as Castro wouldn't be as likely to make a fuss about it as Clayton surely would.

Jpup
07-23-2006, 09:16 PM
Every other paper and net source seems to believe otherwise though.

I just read this morning that Francona said that the Red Sox had a list of players they were willing to trade, but Lowell wasn't one of them. We'll see. Wily Mo seems to be their trade bait right now.

Jpup
07-23-2006, 09:22 PM
From the St. Petersburg Times on Sunday:


ST. PETERSBURG - The Devil Rays still don't know what they are going to do with shortstop Julio Lugo.

As of Saturday a trade to Toronto seemed most likely, but that could change as other teams (such as the Mets) express more interest as the July 31 deadline for nonwaiver deals nears.

The Rays would prefer to acquire young starting pitching, but appear willing to at least talk with the Blue Jays about getting two pitchers from a group that includes hard-throwing relievers Brandon League and Francisco Rosario and swingmen Shaun Marcum and Dustin McGowan.

Though re-signing Lugo during the season seems unlikely, given his desire for a four- to five-year deal at around $8-million per, the Rays could keep him the rest of the season and get draft-pick compensation when he leaves as a free agent. Or they could try - perhaps aggressively - to sign him back once he hits the open market even if he is traded.

Executive vice president Andrew Friedman would not discuss specifics but said before Saturday's game the Rays were continuing talks with numerous teams, mostly contenders, about several players.

Veteran left-hander Casey Fossum has attracted some interest; first baseman Travis Lee and reserves such as Damon Hollins could as well.

"The teams that we are talking to for the most part are viewing this in a much shorter lens than we are," Friedman said. "Our lens is bigger and wider in the sense that we are looking for players that are going to help us for a number of years. So we're going to continue to have conversations along those lines and continue to try to add good young players to our major-league team and to our system."

Friedman also said there is "no such thing" as an untouchable Ray, which means stars such as Carl Crawford and Scott Kazmir and touted prospects such as Delmon Young and B.J. Upton could be available, though it clearly would take an enormous offer.

"In the position we're in, it's our duty to listen to any thoughts that anybody has regarding anybody. Obviously there are some that are much more difficult to move than others," Friedman said.

"Our goal here, and our duty to the fans, is to build a competitive team that we can sustain, so any deal we look at that we believe helps us in that pursuit we're going to be prepared to do. That's the end-all."

I don't know what the Rays would want for Kazmir, but I would sure like to see him in red. Lugo would be a rental, so I wouldn't want to give up much for him unless Krivsky really thought he was going to be the difference.

Jpup
07-23-2006, 09:25 PM
From the Hartford Courant, regarding Lowell:


Lowell Staying Put

As the July 31 nonwaiver trade deadline approaches, there are several players general manager Theo Epstein would be willing to deal to strengthen the team. Mike Lowell said Saturday that he was told by manager Terry Francona that he isn't one of them.

Lowell's name surfaced in a rumor in which he was to be traded to the Padres for struggling righthander Jake Peavy.

"I'd probably recommend Theo do it for a 25-year-old righthander who's a potential ace," Lowell said.

Lowell has bounced back from a disastrous season at the plate with the Marlins and has played superb defense, proving the Gold Glove he won last year was no fluke.

"I love the trade deadline," Lowell said. "I don't know if it's coming up through the Yankee system where once you became a prospect you were linked to every single trade to mankind. I was linked to trades in '03 and last year. It was like a downgrade from all the trades I was involved with in the minor leagues. I was traded like 50 times."

Epstein has stepped up his search for a starting pitcher with Tim Wakefield going on the disabled list Saturday and possibly missing a month.

If Peavy is actually available, he is the best on the market. Anyone would be foolish not to trade for him. His value is an all-time low, but he is very good. I wonder if Encarnacion and Denorfia could get it done?

StillFunkyB
07-23-2006, 09:25 PM
From the St. Petersburg Times on Sunday:


I don't know what the Rays would want for Kazmir, but I would sure like to see him in red. Lugo would be a rental, so I wouldn't want to give up much for him unless Krivsky really thought he was going to be the difference.

Probably more than the Reds have to offer.

Kazmir should have been a Red, but that's old news.

Jpup
07-23-2006, 09:28 PM
How about Brett Myers, TC, how you heard anything regarding him? He's pitching against the Braves right now. He would be an ideal pitcher for the Reds.

joshnky
07-23-2006, 09:31 PM
From the Hartford Courant, regarding Lowell:


If Peavy is actually available, he is the best on the market. Anyone would be foolish not to trade for him. His value is an all-time low, but he is very good. I wonder if Encarnacion and Denorfia could get it done?

There is no way the Padres move Peavy unless they get blown over by a deal or they're completely stupid. I'd be shocked if they traded him for Lowell if he is the prime target. I think it would take a good young pitcher (Wood or Ward??) along with Encarnacion and maybe Denorfia to get him. I'd still be willing to consider that deal. Before his struggles Peavy was one of the best pitchers in the NL.

I just checked the stats and I'll take back what I said about the Peavy deal. No way I'd throw in a talent like EE for a pitcher who is 4-10 with a 5.15 era and a WHIP of 1.31. Does anyone know whats happened to him? Was it the WBC curse?

Jpup
07-23-2006, 09:33 PM
There is no way the Padres move Peavy unless they get blown over by a deal or they're completely stupid. I'd be shocked if they traded him for Lowell if he is the prime target. I think it would take a good young pitcher (Wood or Ward??) along with Encarnacion and maybe Denorfia to get him. I'd still be willing to consider that deal. Before his struggles Peavy was one of the best pitchers in the NL.

I agree, I don't think San Diego would let him go, but it's a nice thought. :)

Devoniusmaximus
07-23-2006, 09:37 PM
Mike Lowell said Saturday that he was told by manager Terry Francona that he isn't one of them.


Lowell better ask Bronson Arroyo about Boston promises before unpacking his bag ;)

jesusfan
07-23-2006, 09:37 PM
I am enamored by the Ian Kinsler idea... that would be great... I'd definitely give Larue, Coffee, Germano, and Standridge/Shack for Kinsler, Benoit and otsuka... That deal would be incredible... Move B. Phil to short... and wow..

1.) Freel
2.) Kinsler
3.) Griffey
4.) Dunn
5.) Aurilia/Encarnacion
6.) Hatteberg
7.) Phillips
8.) Ross
9.) Pitcher

Caveat Emperor
07-23-2006, 09:39 PM
I wonder if the Reds are trying to pawn Jason LaRue or Javy Valentin off on TB, considering they dealt Toby Hall away earlier in the year.

I don't see Tampa wanting to take on LaRue's contract, though he would provide some decent pop from the catcher position. Navarro is young, but he's shown no power at any point in his minor league career.

crazybob60
07-23-2006, 09:45 PM
From the St. Petersburg Times on Sunday:


I don't know what the Rays would want for Kazmir, but I would sure like to see him in red. Lugo would be a rental, so I wouldn't want to give up much for him unless Krivsky really thought he was going to be the difference.

Well yeah, I would like to see him in Red as well, let's just hope for the right red and not the Sox. Also, as for Lugo, I hope the Reds stay as far away from him as possible, just another Aurilia/Clayton type of player in my eyes.

joshnky
07-23-2006, 09:49 PM
I don't know if anyone else has seen the latest Tejada to Houston rumour but if this is true they're giving up an awful lot.


Tejada making waves
July 23
Chicago Tribune (registration required): "The Cubs would love Tejada, of course, but it's doubtful they can come up with a counteroffer that will deter the Baltimore Orioles from making a move that could have long-term implications in the National League Central--trading Tejada to the Houston Astros for a package built around shortstop Adam Everett and some very good prospects--right-handers Fernando Nieve, Jason Hirsh and outfielder Hunter Pence."

KoryMac5
07-23-2006, 10:53 PM
There is no way the Padres move Peavy unless they get blown over by a deal or they're completely stupid. I'd be shocked if they traded him for Lowell if he is the prime target. I think it would take a good young pitcher (Wood or Ward??) along with Encarnacion and maybe Denorfia to get him. I'd still be willing to consider that deal. Before his struggles Peavy was one of the best pitchers in the NL.

I just checked the stats and I'll take back what I said about the Peavy deal. No way I'd throw in a talent like EE for a pitcher who is 4-10 with a 5.15 era and a WHIP of 1.31. Does anyone know whats happened to him? Was it the WBC curse?


I have heard from listening to various media outlets that Peavy has been going through some shoulder issues this year. Might be damaged goods, guy is too good to be 4-10 without having some health issues.

LINEDRIVER
07-23-2006, 10:58 PM
The Reds have officially entered the Julio Lugo sweepstakes. Two young pitchers and one vet. Toronto still has the best offer on the table. I will be in Syracuse to see some of their AAA talent and we already have one other guy looking at New Hampshire AA. Boston has made some serious inquiries but we expect them to trade Lowell today or tomorrow. The dominos are starting to fall.

TeamClark,

I seriously doubt the Reds have legitimate interest in Lugo.

Kriv should not sleep or eat until he locates a fifth starter. EE rides the pine cuz he might make a throwing error, but Mays is sent out there with the likelihood that his team will have to generate a mega-offensive game to overcome his shortcomings. Seems like a double standard to me. But who says life is fair? ha ha

Wasn't Lugo in trouble about 2 yrs ago for beating up his wife?

nmculbreth
07-23-2006, 11:07 PM
I just checked the stats and I'll take back what I said about the Peavy deal. No way I'd throw in a talent like EE for a pitcher who is 4-10 with a 5.15 era and a WHIP of 1.31. Does anyone know whats happened to him? Was it the WBC curse?

Peavy had some issues with tendonitis earlier this season and I don't think he's completely healthy. That being said he is still young and a legitimate ace, I'd trade a package of EE, Denorfia and a B prospect for him even if he wasn't able to throw another pitch this season.

Team Clark
07-23-2006, 11:22 PM
I highly doubt it'd be worth his job to repost a trade offer on a public forum.

Just a hunch, though. :thumbup:

That would be more than a Hunch. That would be a clear cut FACT...:laugh:

Team Clark
07-23-2006, 11:34 PM
How about Brett Myers, TC, how you heard anything regarding him? He's pitching against the Braves right now. He would be an ideal pitcher for the Reds.

No I have not. I would imagine there would be at least 20+ teams interested in Brett.

Team Clark
07-23-2006, 11:36 PM
TeamClark,

I seriously doubt the Reds have legitimate interest in Lugo.

Kriv should not sleep or eat until he locates a fifth starter. EE rides the pine cuz he might make a throwing error, but Mays is sent out there with the likelihood that his team will have to generate a mega-offensive game to overcome his shortcomings. Seems like a double standard to me. But who says life is fair? ha ha

Wasn't Lugo in trouble about 2 yrs ago for beating up his wife?

I agree that the Reds need a FOURTH and FIFTH starter. However, they need a longer term solution at SS as well. A multi-team deal that would bring both and keep some good players away from the Cardinals would be a GREAT idea.;)

redsfan30
07-23-2006, 11:37 PM
I wouldn't be opposed to trying to pick up Lugo. He'd be an definte upgrade offensively over Castro/Clayton. Don't know much about him defensively, though.

corkedbat
07-23-2006, 11:38 PM
If this is true, why in the world did we take Clayton? Were we forced to take him with Bray and Magic?

Clayton's the vet we're offering for Lugo. :D


They wanted us to include Denorfia, but we demanded Disney World, Epcot and a PTBNL in return.

Team Clark
07-23-2006, 11:38 PM
Lowell better ask Bronson Arroyo about Boston promises before unpacking his bag ;)

Yeas he does... actually I think Lowell knows he is gone and is helping Theo with the tongue in cheek story. JMO

15fan
07-23-2006, 11:52 PM
So if the Reds acquire Lugo only to watch him walk to another team at the end of year, wouldn't the Reds get a comp pick (or two) in next summer's draft?

If Wayne is planning on bringing in a big name FA this off-season, then maybe it makes sense for him to even out the draft pick ledger by acquiring a guy who's going to turn into picks.

Or maybe he just wants to have multiple picks in the first couple of rounds next year. That wouldn't be bad, either.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 12:02 AM
I seriously doubt the Reds have legitimate interest in Lugo.
Lugo looks a lot like an older version of the SS the Reds just got rid of.

RedEye
07-24-2006, 12:10 AM
I agree that the Reds need a FOURTH and FIFTH starter. However, they need a longer term solution at SS as well. A multi-team deal that would bring both and keep some good players away from the Cardinals would be a GREAT idea.;)

Team Clark,

This is a great idea, yes...

Okay, now your little winking smiley face has me even more curious! As an insider, have you heard of any deals that might actually net the Reds all of these things, or are you just playing?

I have a hard time imagining a trade that could get us that stuff... but the "yellow notepad" Kinsler trade you mentioned earlier sure sounds like that type of deal (We'd move BP to short, put Kinsler at 2B for the next decade, throw Otsuka in the bullpen and stretch Benoit out to be our 5th starter). Is this what you are referring to? Does this trade still have a chance to happen?

Inquiring minds want to know!

RedEye
07-24-2006, 12:16 AM
Ooh! Or maybe Wayne will pull off the trade that has been rumored for awhile anyway:

EdE, Claussen, T. Wood, and Votto

for

Miguel Tejada, Rodrigo Lopez

Now that could happen, couldn't it? Ahhh! I love the trade deadline!

Team Clark
07-24-2006, 12:17 AM
Team Clark,

This is a great idea, yes...

Okay, now your little winking smiley face has me even more curious! As an insider, have you heard of any deals that might actually net the Reds all of these things, or are you just playing?

I have a hard time imagining a trade that could get us that stuff... but the "yellow notepad" Kinsler trade you mentioned earlier sure sounds like that type of deal (We'd move BP to short, put Kinsler at 2B for the next decade, throw Otsuka in the bullpen and stretch Benoit out to be our 5th starter). Is this what you are referring to? Does this trade still have a chance to happen?

Inquiring minds want to know!

I wish I could tell you more... The problem with telling more is that most of the trades/moves that I hear about or I am directly involved in NEVER happen. Stay tuned. BTW, if Lugo were to be traded I believe a window would be given for him to negotiate a LTC. Although I do like the idea of a GM getting several compensatory picks in a draft. Especially when you could get good pitching to develop.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 12:17 AM
Ooh! Or maybe Wayne will pull off the trade that has been rumored for awhile anyway:

EdE, Claussen, T. Wood, and Votto

for

Miguel Tejada, Rodrigo Lopez

Now that could happen, couldn't it? Ahhh! I love the trade deadline!Lopez is unlikely to help and that is way to much to give up for Tejada

RedEye
07-24-2006, 12:26 AM
Lopez is unlikely to help and that is way to much to give up for Tejada

Lopez isn't great, but he is probably better than what we've got in the 4th hole (Milton) and definitely better than what we've got in the 5th (Mays).

What do you think a realistic price for Tejada would be?

Steroid rumors notwithstanding, I would imagine it would take at least an offer like that to land him. If we did give up T. Wood, Votto, Claussen and EdE, I would almost consider that a fair trade. EdE and Claussen are the only proven commodities, and Tejada is easily the best hitting SS in all of baseball right now. Bailey and Bruce would still be safe at home in the Reds system.

Tejada's right-handed power bat would make our line-up sick once again because he would slot between Griff and Dunn in the order. He's a better RBI man than either of those guys at this point, too.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 12:34 AM
Lopez isn't great, but he is probably better than what we've got in the 4th hole (Milton) and definitely better than what we've got in the 5th (MaysLopez and his 6.73 ERA has been much worse than Milton and not much better than Mays. The Reds have better internal options than taking another teams steaming pile of crap.

Scoop55
07-24-2006, 12:38 AM
I agree.

Now switch names to Erik Bedard.....and hmmmmmmm????

Maldez
07-24-2006, 12:50 AM
Team Clark - I'm not an everyday visitor here, so this is the first time I recall seeing you post. Maybe the "regulars" here know your background, but I don't.

You hint at having some sort of inside connection to the Reds, chatting with players, seeing all the unconsummated trades that fill the waste baskets of Krivsky's office, etc.

Maybe you can fill us in, or at least me, on where you're getting your information. Or maybe you just want to remain a Deepthroat kind of guy.

Jpup
07-24-2006, 12:57 AM
Team Clark - I'm not an everyday visitor here, so this is the first time I recall seeing you post. Maybe the "regulars" here know your background, but I don't.

You hint at having some sort of inside connection to the Reds, chatting with players, seeing all the unconsummated trades that fill the waste baskets of Krivsky's office, etc.

Maybe you can fill us in, or at least me, on where you're getting your information. Or maybe you just want to remain a Deepthroat kind of guy.

read the thread.

Team Clark
07-24-2006, 12:58 AM
read the thread.

Page 5 Post #98 should help you with your question. don't worry, I get asked all the time.

sammonator
07-24-2006, 01:05 AM
TC what kind of money is Lugo looking for in a LTC?

Jpup
07-24-2006, 01:06 AM
TC what kind of money is Lugo looking for in a LTC?

The St. Pete paper says about 8 million per. :laugh: no way I would do that.

Mario-Rijo
07-24-2006, 01:11 AM
I agree that the Reds need a FOURTH and FIFTH starter. However, they need a longer term solution at SS as well. A multi-team deal that would bring both and keep some good players away from the Cardinals would be a GREAT idea.

Hmmm....

I wonder if one of those teams might be the Fish? The FO's of all teams like to blow smoke, so I never listen to the lip service when they say someone isn't available. I think I could construct a deal that would cause all of the above to happen.

The Playas:
Reds
Marlins
Red Sox
Padres

The Padres acquire: Mike Lowell, Eric Milton & Cash (From Red Sox)
The Red Sox acquire: Dontrelle Willis, Dave Roberts & Todd Coffey
The Marlins acquire: Jon Lester, Phil Dumatrait, Wily Mo Pena, Brendan Harris & a Low Level arm from S.D.
The Reds acquire: Jake Peavy, Joe Borowski & Alejandro Machado

Or maybe not, this deal has some holes (obviously). But I am tired so I am just throwing something out there. Also I could include TB somehow so that we would get Julio instead. But maybe that comes afterwards, something like this.

Reds get Lugo
TB gets Tyler Pelland, Justin Germano & Royce Clayton

Jpup
07-24-2006, 01:18 AM
Hmmm....

I wonder if one of those teams might be the Fish? The FO's of all teams like to blow smoke, so I never listen to the lip service when they say someone isn't available. I think I could construct a deal that would cause all of the above to happen.

The Playas:
Reds
Marlins
Red Sox
Padres

The Padres acquire: Mike Lowell, Eric Milton & Cash (From Red Sox)
The Red Sox acquire: Dontrelle Willis, Dave Roberts & Todd Coffey
The Marlins acquire: Jon Lester, Phil Dumatrait, Wily Mo Pena, Brendan Harris & a Low Level arm from S.D.
The Reds acquire: Jake Peavy, Joe Borowski & Alejandro Machado

Or maybe not, this deal has some holes (obviously). But I am tired so I am just throwing something out there. Also I could include TB somehow so that we would get Julio instead. But maybe that comes afterwards, something like this.

Reds get Lugo
TB gets Tyler Pelland, Justin Germano & Royce Clayton


So you are basically saying that the Reds get Peavy, Borowski, and Machado for Coffey, Milton(and his paycheck), Brendan Harris and Phil Dumatrait. I can't see Peavy traded for anything close to that. I think it would take Adam Dunn or maybe Edwin, Denorfia, and Wood to pry Peavy away from San Diego.

Maldez
07-24-2006, 01:28 AM
Page 5 Post #98 should help you with your question. don't worry, I get asked all the time.

Thanks, mate. It's great having someone with a professional baseball background adding real meat to the drivel posted by those of us whose careers peaked with whiffle ball.

Team Clark
07-24-2006, 01:29 AM
The St. Pete paper says about 8 million per. :laugh: no way I would do that.

I would not know directly. St. Pete paper is probably pretty darn close.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 01:31 AM
So you are basically saying that the Reds get Peavy, Borowski, and Machado for Coffey, Milton(and his paycheck), Brendan Harris and Phil Dumatrait. I can't see Peavy traded for anything close to that. but then again who would have thought the Nats could get a good offensive SS and RF for 2 middle relief pitchers.

Team Clark
07-24-2006, 01:31 AM
So you are basically saying that the Reds get Peavy, Borowski, and Machado for Coffey, Milton(and his paycheck), Brendan Harris and Phil Dumatrait. I can't see Peavy traded for anything close to that. I think it would take Adam Dunn or maybe Edwin, Denorfia, and Wood to pry Peavy away from San Diego.

I agree. Although Mario is tired, got ot give him a break. His proposal would be a great start.

Team Clark
07-24-2006, 01:32 AM
Thanks, mate. It's great having someone with a professional baseball background adding real meat to the drivel posted by those of us whose careers peaked with whiffle ball.

No problem. Glad to contribute. Redszone is a great place to gt Baseball info.

Wiffle Ball...so does that mean you are a SABR guy? :laugh: :laugh:

I chide, I chide.... for me to poop on!

Razor Shines
07-24-2006, 01:37 AM
Lugo looks a lot like an older version of the SS the Reds just got rid of.
I don't know what their respective zone ratings are but Lugo is OPSing .885 this year and Lopez is OPSing .738, but of course Lugo's career is only .752, but I'll take him having a career year for the rest of this season as an upgrade over Lopez.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 01:44 AM
I don't know what their respective zone ratings Defensive metrics can often be misleading but anecdotally he has never been regarded as anything more than average at SS.

The problem the Reds have is that even after the deal that don't look any more like a playoff team than they did before it. Overall the move looks a lot like a lateral move where a decrease in runs allowed is offset by a decrease in runs scored.

Razor Shines
07-24-2006, 01:47 AM
Defensive metrics can often be misleading but anecdotally he has never been regarded as anything more than average at SS.

The problem the Reds have is that even after the deal that don't look any more like a playoff team than they did before it. Overall the move looks a lot like a lateral move where a decrease in runs allowed is offset by a decrease in runs scored.
Then you agree that it would be a good thing to get Lugo?

Slyder
07-24-2006, 02:32 AM
Theo is not trading Lowell if you believe the Boston papers.

What was their belief right before the Arroyo for Pena deal?

sonny
07-24-2006, 04:30 AM
I am of the belief that all the movement is done. no willis, no lugo no trading of anybody else (but God, please make someone want weathers). A couple ideas have been brought down from the FO:

1. you don't have a solid work ethic, you don't play. Lets hope dunn got the message when his buddy got shipped off to DC

2. we CAN win. sitting pat on the same basic lineup year after year has not worked. Bob C has brought in guys with a can-win attitude. phillips, hatterberg, arroyo, and of course Wayne Krivsky

it may not get us into the playoffs this year, but the foundation is being laid for repetitive title contention. and in the new red and blue unis too.

smith288
07-24-2006, 10:17 AM
Lugo doesnt intrigue me though would obviously be an offensive upgrade over what we have now.

My preference would be a #4 or good (subjective I suppose) #5 and some more middle relief.

If we can get a Lugo, it better be for some "veteran presense" that we have in abundance and not one of our good (not subjective) arms.

Hubba
07-24-2006, 10:30 AM
When did you change your name to TC ?:)
The St. Pete paper says about 8 million per. :laugh: no way I would do that.

M2
07-24-2006, 10:49 AM
Why go after the suspect glove of Lugo at a high price when you could probably have the superior glove of Cesar Izturis for a lot less (plus he's signed through next year at a reasonable price).

Though I'd be on the phone with Bill Stoneman figuring out what it takes to get Erick Aybar.

StillFunkyB
07-24-2006, 10:51 AM
Why go after the suspect glove of Lugo at a high price when you could probably have the superior glove of Cesar Izturis for a lot less (plus he's signed through next year at a reasonable price).

Though I'd be on the phone with Bill Stoneman figuring out what it takes to get Erick Aybar.

Good thought M2. I would much rather see an Izturis than a Lugo.

ED44
07-24-2006, 11:00 AM
I don't see Peavy going anywhere either. It sounds like Lowell for Linebrink could go down at anytime though.

TC had mentioned the Reds possibly making deal(s) to keep certain players away from the Cards. Who could some of those players be? With the rumors about Dontrelle possibly being traded there...he is one. Who are some of the others?

Team Clark
07-24-2006, 11:02 AM
When did you change your name to TC ?:)


LOL!... Is that like the Clark Kent/Superman episodes?

REDREAD
07-24-2006, 11:18 AM
unfortunately the market for grifffey is equal to the market for Studebaker or Edsel

Actually, Edsels are very valuable now. I have a relative that has two of them in great shape, and he constantly gets big offers for them.

I know the point you are trying to make though.

I still think Jr is a lot more valuable to the Reds than any other team. I agree with everyone else that he should move to a corner OF slot.

With our depleted offense, it makes no sense to give Jr away now.

Hubba
07-24-2006, 01:36 PM
LOL!... Is that like the Clark Kent/Superman episodes?When someone asked you a question Jpup would answer, Thanks for the updates TC.:beerme:

TRF
07-24-2006, 02:05 PM
Ya know, I'm having trouble figuring out why the D-Rays haven't put it all together yet. They have a ton of talent on the cusp, and they pillaged one of the best young LH pitchers in the game for Victor Freaking Zambrano. Once Young and Upton reach the majors, that team could be a force with a tad more pitching.

Jpup
07-24-2006, 02:17 PM
When did you change your name to TC ?:)

I thought I would answer your question since I had just read that and I didn't know that TC was around. Just trying to be helpful. :help:

smith288
07-24-2006, 02:19 PM
I thought I would answer your question since I had just read that and I didn't know that TC was around. Just trying to be helpful. :help:
He was just busting your... your... jpups.

Rotater Cuff
07-24-2006, 02:25 PM
I thought I would answer your question since I had just read that and I didn't know that TC was around. Just trying to be helpful. :help:

It's ridiculous that he called you on that. A little prissy.
This is a reader written blog, not "TC reports" Thanks for sharing your knowledge of the issue.

Hubba
07-24-2006, 03:22 PM
It was just a joke:rolleyes:Didn't you see the smiley?
It's ridiculous that he called you on that. A little prissy.
This is a reader written blog, not "TC reports" Thanks for sharing your knowledge of the issue.

smith288
07-24-2006, 04:01 PM
You sound wound up yourself...take it to PM and not here.

Team Clark
07-24-2006, 04:07 PM
Turned a perfectly good thread into a Neg war... :-(

Gainesville Red
07-24-2006, 04:09 PM
Turned a perfectly good thread into a Neg war... :-(

It was fun while it lasted.

TRF
07-24-2006, 04:10 PM
Ignore him... I do.

TC what are your thoughts on why TB hasn't put it all together? It seems like the club has had some talent in their system for quite some time, but can't get the right pieces for the big league club.

redsfan30
07-24-2006, 04:48 PM
Guys, please don't get this thread closed because of stupid neg wars.

This thread has been too much fun to read and too valuable to be closed.

smith288
07-24-2006, 04:52 PM
Guys, please don't get this thread closed because of stupid neg wars.

This thread has been too much fun to read and too valuable to be closed.
I have 11 pages before it turned into a neg war. Thats some sort of record.

Hubba
07-24-2006, 05:15 PM
Turned a perfectly good thread into a Neg war... :-( Thanks TC

Hubba
07-24-2006, 05:17 PM
I have 11 pages before it turned into a neg war. Thats some sort of record. Its not a neg war unless you make it one, Enough said OK

Team Clark
07-24-2006, 06:32 PM
Ignore him... I do.

TC what are your thoughts on why TB hasn't put it all together? It seems like the club has had some talent in their system for quite some time, but can't get the right pieces for the big league club.

Our front office was a joke. Plain and simple. Same thing the Reds went through for several years. 90% of the FO personnel that were here 2 years ago are gone, most of them getting whacked this past off-season. The FO was a chicken with it's head cut off. We are in much better shape now. Still going to take some time though.

Team Clark
07-24-2006, 06:37 PM
Its not a neg war unless you make it one, Enough said OK

It's cool. Just keep the shots over the bow to the PM's. Believe me I have had a few run ins with some folks on this board. We have learned to live in peace and harmony. I think I have been suspended twice. I just learned to tailor my writing and not take anything personal. Like when I played, when someone yelled "Hey Catch, YOU SUCK"! It was not personal. My response of "Is that all you got Fat #@#" was usually innapropriate as well...:evil:

smith288
07-24-2006, 06:43 PM
It's cool. Just keep the shots over the bow to the PM's. Believe me I have had a few run ins with some folks on this board. We have learned to live in peace and harmony. I think I have been suspended twice. I just learned to tailor my writing and not take anything personal. Like when I played, when some yelled "Hey Catch, YOU SUCK"! It was not personal. My response of "Is that all you got Fat #@#" was usually innapropriate as well...:evil:
Team Clark... RedsZone outlaw turned to RedsZone treasure.

There is an A & E movie somewhere in there.

corkedbat
07-24-2006, 07:03 PM
It's cool. Just keep the shots over the bow to the PM's. Believe me I have had a few run ins with some folks on this board. We have learned to live in peace and harmony. I think I have been suspended twice. I just learned to tailor my writing and not take anything personal. Like when I played, when some yelled "Hey Catch, YOU SUCK"! It was not personal. My response of "Is that all you got Fat #@#" was usually innapropriate as well...:evil:*

Any inklings of any possible deals for the Reds this week(before the old demons come crawling out and you're gone again)? :D

I'd think a catcher at least will be gone by this time next week.

Heath
07-24-2006, 07:10 PM
Our front office was a joke. Plain and simple. Same thing the Reds went through for several years. 90% of the FO personnel that were here 2 years ago are gone, most of them getting whacked this past off-season. The FO was a chicken with it's head cut off. We are in much better shape now. Still going to take some time though.

Rats, its always fun to wear my D-Rays stuff and have people make fun of me.

:D

Team Clark
07-24-2006, 07:35 PM
Rats, its always fun to wear my D-Rays stuff and have people make fun of me.

:D

LOL! Yeah, that has happened a time or two...

Mario-Rijo
07-24-2006, 08:10 PM
Originally Posted By M2
Why go after the suspect glove of Lugo at a high price when you could probably have the superior glove of Cesar Izturis for a lot less (plus he's signed through next year at a reasonable price).


Right you are M2, as a matter of fact I was thinking the exact same thing earlier today when I saw his name tossed about in a Chat on ESPN. Cesar Itzuris would be a very sound option, very good defensive player and someone who can hit at the top of the lineup and is a far more proficient offensive player than is Clayton. The only question would be how has he looked overall since he came back from the surgery (TommyJohn I think)? I would assume throwing has not been much of an issue since he is playing 3B, but I have not seen him.

Of course this deal would be a difficult one to make as the Dodgers are chasing us in the W/C and they want Starting pitching I think. Perhaps and don't get me wrong I am not so sure we want to do this but what about..... in fact nevermind I am not even gonna type it as it's not a wise move. But what could we deal for Itzuris that would at least make L.A. feel like they were bettering themselves and hurting us, but in reality it's vice versa?

Ok I was going to say Clayton & Milton for Itzuris and that albatross Odalis Perez, because their deals (Milton & Perez) are almost exact! But frankly I think I would rather have Milton as at least he is gonna go out and TRY to win, I'm not so sure about Perez! But the Dodgers would see it as getting rid of Perez's contract due to his attitude problem. But it could very well hurt our chemistry, and we do not need that!

corkedbat
07-26-2006, 07:49 PM
Just being nostalgic. This thread should not die until the trade deadline. :D

RedEye
07-26-2006, 07:55 PM
This is my favorite thread in my short time on RedsZone.

Blue
07-26-2006, 07:59 PM
TC, give us a scoop!

acredsfan
07-26-2006, 08:13 PM
TC- It sure feels like Krivsky is brewing something, I just don't feel like this is the team that we will be seeing in August. We have Javy basically rotting on the bench seeing the occasional pinch hit, and we are far too thin as far as pitchers go, I have to believe that if Krivsky is serious about going for it this year, he's working on something else as we speak.

Handofdeath
07-26-2006, 10:26 PM
Reds may have one more deal left

By MARC LANCASTER
Scripps Howard News Service
25-JUL-06

Sitting in his office Monday afternoon, a week away from the non-waiver trade deadline, Cincinnati Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky said his day had been fairly low-key.

Their blockbuster move already in the books, the Reds don't figure to be major players in the coming week. But with Krivsky involved, there's reason to believe the Reds will find themselves involved in the action one way or another.

"I think a lot of teams will try to improve themselves," Krivsky said. "I don't know if the demand will exceed the supply, but everybody's trying to improve themselves."

Big bats are the most prominent names on the market for the time being. Reports Monday suggested the White Sox are near a deal for Washington's Alfonso Soriano, and Phillies outfielder Bobby Abreu and Orioles shortstop Miguel Tejada should be hot commodities.

The Reds don't figure to be in the mix for any of them, focusing as always on pitching. The primary concern is the fifth starter's spot, which has been a problem for months. Brandon Claussen was on the verge of losing his rotation spot before going on the disabled list five weeks ago, and Joe Mays had struggled as his replacement.

The party line continues to be that Mays will start again Saturday, but there's little doubt the Reds are exploring alternatives.

Three members of Class AAA Louisville's rotation are on the 40-man roster and would be easy to slot in. Left-hander Michael Gosling is 4-4 with a 4.04 ERA, lefty Phil Dumatrait is 4-4 with a 3.98 ERA in nine starts with the Bats after going 3-4 with a 3.62 ERA in 10 starts for Chattanooga and right-hander Justin Germano is 8-6 with a 3.69 ERA.

"They're all possibilities," said Krivsky. "We'll have to wait and see."

Just as likely is a relatively minor move to bring someone in from outside the organization. While the Reds wouldn't appear to have the requisite pieces for another large-scale trade like the eight-player deal they pulled with the Nationals on July 13, they should have some trade options.

A couple of high-profile relievers, Bob Wickman and Scott Williamson, have been dealt in recent days in return for minor leaguers. Krivsky had success with that type of deal in acquiring Brandon Phillips and David Ross earlier this year, and there likely will be some names floating around within the Reds' price range.

Krivsky won't get into specifics about any of the discussions he may or may not be having, but the Reds are hardly alone in their areas of need.

"You look around baseball, there are a lot of teams that would like to upgrade the end of their rotation," said Krivsky.

The Red Sox and Mets, who boast two of the five highest payrolls in the majors, have been forced to insert unproven youngsters into their rotations since the All-Star break and also are likely to be trawling for serviceable arms.

Put in a bidding war with such high-payroll clubs, the Reds likely would come out on the short end. But Krivsky insists he isn't concerned with the big picture.

"I'm only concerned about what makes us better," he said. "I can't worry about the other clubs."

For now, Krivsky is pleased with the results from the deal that brought Gary Majewski, Bill Bray and Royce Clayton from Washington for Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez. The Reds just wrapped up their best homestand since early 2004, and they head back on the road today with a one-game lead in the wild card standings.

"I'm comfortable with the team, especially since the trade," said Krivsky. "I think we're better, and that's not a knock on the players we gave up; you've got to give up something. The bullpen's pitched well, by and large, and we've won seven out of 10. We had a good homestand, now we need to take it out on the road and do the same thing."



(Contact Marc Lancaster of the Cincinnati Post at www.cincypost.com.)

Team Clark
07-27-2006, 12:35 AM
No scoop. I'm not even sure what moves we are going to make. I expect Crawford to be moved very soon... Lugo too. You don't need to be on the inside to figure that out though. I think the biggest player might be the Giants. That's just what I am hearing.

Starting to get in the late July mode where other scouts are keeping things to themselves or just making stuff up. We laugh about it in Mid August.

I do not think the Reds are done dealing. Then again if the price goes up for someone Krivsky wants then he may back out. Too hard to tell this year.

The Reds were in the Lugo sweepstakes but the price has gone higher. I doubt that they are serious contenders for Lugo as of this eve.

Spring~Fields
07-27-2006, 12:41 AM
TC

Is Junior Griffey healthy?

Team Clark
07-27-2006, 12:52 AM
TC

Is Junior Griffey healthy?

I have not taked to JR in awhile. Tried calling Sr. from the road but couldn't get him either. So, I do not know what is up with JR. He needs to turn that top hand in and stop putting that horrid loop in his swing.

BTW, Coffey has made some nice adjustments and is not tipping as much. He still tips his slider but now he is doing it by fanning his glove when he comes set. Hey, maybe I'm the only one who saw it. Got to love Tivo.

sammonator
07-27-2006, 12:57 AM
TC are you hearing anything about the Reds trying to trade a catcher? If so, what kind of value do they have?

Ron Madden
07-27-2006, 03:58 AM
Maybe I missed something.

Just how did the Reds / Nats trade contribute to the 7-3 homestand