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Team Clark
07-14-2006, 01:18 PM
Since I have 4 hours before my flight leaves I figure I would post what I know about the Trade and fill in the blanks with what I am almost certain.

Kearns wore out his welcome. Likeable guy but not accountable. He has not, and probably will not, reach his big league potential. Sure O'Brien dogged him last year. With good reason. He missed extra hitting sessions (Philadelphia, NY), his shoulder rehab could have gone a lot better and his extra poundage was costing him. Not the way you want to please the Manager or FO.

Austin has a hitch in his swing that you could shove Adam Dunn through. Fortunately for him he has great hand speed and enough strength to make it work, most of the time. In baseball you hit the bottom half of the ball by staying strong THROUGH the ball. Austin hit the top half of the ball while dipping like a softballer. Austin was to 3B what Casey is to 2B. Fastball in or down = Ground ball to 3B or SS. Hard breaking ball away = Foul ball or pop up to 1B. Like I was saying, great fortune and hand speed allowed him to get ahead of enough balls to get some quality hits. What was impressive was the OPPO Home runs. To shear a fastball away out of the park they way he did requires some serious skill. Unfortunately that becomes a crutch for a player.

BEYOND the mechanical issues is the fact that he WOULD NOT correct any part of his swing. And I mean NEVER EVER. The swing he came to the bigs with was nearly flawless. (Shades of Molitor) His swing last year told the whole story. Put on some weight, lost some hand speed and there you have a .215-.220 swing. Now Chambliss will not have the stress of having to fight with him.

In retrospect Casey was the same way. "I'm hitting (*avg) so why would I work on this"? Heard it myself from them both in years passed. Great guys. But they just wanted to stay with what they had. Casey had a little more lead on that leash as he did a great job pounding breaking balls. Little easier since he as a LH hitter.

I could go on about Austin's lack of closing speed in the OF this season, how he can not get to balls to his right and the fact that only 1 out of 5 throws are on line or make it to the bag. But then I will get accused of picking on Austin when in fact I am just putting the facts out there. I know the real story, I have the facts and I'm not some Fantasy baseball guy that thinks the Mets will give us Pedro for Freel and Claussen.

I know for an absolute fact that he was running out of support in the Clubhouse. A lot of guys "LIKE" Austin but did not feel that he was committed to this game. I agree and made mention of this last season and was blasted on this board for telling the truth. I saw Austin in Louisville twice this off season and looked him in the eye to tell him what I thought and what I heard. No screaming, no carrying on. You have to remember I spent A LOT of time with these guys for almost 3 years. I told him he should be starting in RF in every AS game from 2006 on... he liked hearing that but did not want to follow the rest of the conversation about accountability. Austin is like a Ferrari Enzo that has water damage to the interior. Everybody walks up to it and goes "WOW, man that car is AWESOME", "I'd give my right arm for that car". True it is beautiful, it runs fast, smooth gets a lot of looks but you are only seeing it from the outside. Then you tell someone you want to trade it for two nice Cadillacs. "Oh Man, you're crazy!!! You're an idiot" Who's the idiot that wants to drive a Ferrari that stinks like swamp water? Jim Bowden?

The Braves were interested in Kearns. They took him off their board after doing some due diligence. What does that tell you?

Felipe Lopez. A real shame to see him go. This is a guy who works hard at the game. He takes this game seriously. Unfortunately he has a very difficult time becoming consistent. When the trade for Castro was made it was mainly doen to HELP Lopez. It did. I have several game notes and have asked for others on Lopez before and after the trade. I also had a few Tivo games that I watched just to see if the notes were dead on. They were. Prior to Castro coming over Lopez had SIGNIFICANT trouble with is footwork, glove postioning and throwing angle. Watch some old footage of him. Routine groundball comes right to him he would STOP, separate and then get his feet going. No can do. In order to make a quick throw he would get caught with his feet together and end up with a high throw OR a taling throw. Something Reds fans have seen far too much of. It's not like Bucky Dent was not working with him. Feverish would be the word that comes to mind. For whatever reason, they just could not get on the same page. No one to blame, it just happens sometimes. Unfortunately it happened to the SS. Castro comes aboard. Castro, Lopez and Dent spend HOURS working together and whhaaalah. Lopez is now settling through the ball, footwork is timed and MOST IMPORTANT he is throwing over the top and right on the bag. Not to say he didn't make an error or is never going to make one again. He's just more consistent and has a better base to work with. His biggest fielding problem still remains the ball over the mound coming across the middle. He'll get it.

Hitting wise... He has the stick. His stroke is there. If you gave Kearns Lopez's stroke, Kearns would be hitting .330. Lopez approach seems to be killing him. He consistently hit in the hole and the best pitches had already gone by. Even Gwynn and Boggs would have trouble hitting that way. It's ok to hit that good fastball early in the count.

I'm really proud of Krivsky. He knows EXACTLY what he is doing. I have read a lot of comments on this board that are mind numbing. Not that I do not understand that fans have a right to voice their opinions. I'm exercising mine now. What I do not get is this "promise of tomorrow" stuff. I was reading and article about Kearns today that really just skipped over all the facts. They showed numbers with him averaging out at 600 AB's? Are you kidding me? He hasn't even made it to 120 games OR 400 AB's in a season. That's not a fluke. That is a fact. His best season was his first season and he has not made ANY adjustments since! Austin Kearns is not a superstar! If he's your favorite player that's perfectly fine. Mine growing up was Tracy Jones (I know, I Know... I was 11 years old) If you pinned your dreams and hopes onto the back of his uniform, folks you pinned them onto the wrong guy. I drank some of the same Kool Aid until I got to know Austin. I got to see how he went about his business and perfected his craft. You need to find another object of affection.

BTW, playing the game the "Right Way" wins games Championships! Ask the 87-92 A's or the 70-78 Reds. ALL of those teams played Championship caliber baseball. Any ONE of those guys will tell you they themselves would be good individaully but possibly not GREAT unless they had the type of teammates they had around them. The A's more so than the Reds. The A's got more out of less talent where as the Reds meshed great talent to become a true Dynasty. The "right way" is hitting the ball the other way with a man on first, stealing bases, working counts, knowing EXACTLY what to do with the baseball in all situations, etc... When your team is losing you pick each other up and hold someone including yourself accountable. I could probably go on until midnight about playing baseball the right way. Fewer and fewer ballplayers do what is necessary to win. They leave it to chance. Krivsky isn't leaving this season to chance. He's doing things the right way.

Krivksy is one of the best evaluators in the game. Hands down. I wish I had a fifth of his talent. In Wayne you should trust.

vaticanplum
07-14-2006, 01:28 PM
Team Clark, what do you think of the guys we got back? Thanks for the analysis BTW.

flyer85
07-14-2006, 01:29 PM
Krivksy is one of the best evaluators in the game. Hands down. I wish I had a fifth of his talent. In Wayne you should rust.Like I said, we'll find out. Without a doubt WK has one of the biggest pairs in baseball, now we'll see if he is right.

My main problem with the trade is I believe it did not address the main problem this team will have in the 2nd half of the season and that is the 4/5 rotation spots. And now the organizational trading gun is only loaded with blanks unless they want to entertain trading guys like Bailey, Bruce and Votto.

Caseyfan21
07-14-2006, 01:32 PM
Great post, I know this makes me feel better about the trade and why decision were made the way they were. It's nice to finally get a perspective of someone on the inside. We have had less and less of that this year. TC, have you heard about any other deals brewing for the Reds? I'm thinking WK would still like to add a starter if possible.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 01:32 PM
Team Clark, what do you think of the guys we got back? Thanks for the analysis BTW.

Magic is pretty much lights out. I've only seen him twice. I asked for reports on everyone the Reds got in the trade. I probably will not get them until tomorrow. I hear Bray is "filthy". Standridge is also "filthy", so I guess that means we will see. If you have the confidence of a mouse on the mound it really doesn't matter what kind of stuff you have. Wen I get the reports I will try to post what I have.

NJReds
07-14-2006, 01:34 PM
Thanks for the analysis TC. Once again you gave a perspective on something that few have to offer.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 01:35 PM
Great post, I know this makes me feel better about the trade and why decision were made the way they were. It's nice to finally get a perspective of someone on the inside. We have had less and less of that this year. TC, have you heard about any other deals brewing for the Reds? I'm thinking WK would still like to add a starter if possible.

I hear about deals almost every day. However, I learned my lesson before on posting potential deals. Now that I am more involved I clearly see where 99 out of 100 deals go in the trash can. Be a pretty cool trash can to have wouldn't it? I will say that I truly believe the Angels are getting Soriano because I am still tight with a lot of my "peeps" in Anaheim. It's down to one additional player and possibly the approval of $2.5 million in cash. There are 3 serious players for Soriano.

flyer85
07-14-2006, 01:35 PM
Great post, I know this makes me feel better about the trade and why decision were made the way they were. It doesn't make me feel any different about the trade, and honestly that doesn't matter anyway, this like any other trade will be judged by results on the field.

It does explain some of the Reds willingness to deal Kearns/Lopez and also explains why Kearns really struggles to catch up with even decent fastballs.

redsmetz
07-14-2006, 01:36 PM
BTW, playing the game the "Right Way" wins games Championships! Ask the 87-92 A's or the 70-78 Reds. ALL of those teams played Championship caliber baseball. Any ONE of those guys will tell you they themselves would be good individaully but possibly not GREAT unless they had the type of teammates they had around them. The A's more so than the Reds. The A's got more out of less talent where as the Reds meshed great talent to become a true Dynasty. The "right way" is hitting the ball the other way with a man on first, stealing bases, working counts, knowing EXACTLY what to do with the baseball in all situations, etc... When your team is losing you pick each other up and hold someone including yourself accountable. I could probably go on until midnight about playing baseball the right way. Fewer and fewer ballplayers do what is necessary to win. They leave it to chance. Krivsky isn't leaving this season to chance. He's doing things the right way.

Thank you for a great evaluation. I think some people would call what you describe "chemistry", but I"m not sure that's what your saying. For all the talk of "career norms" and Sabermetrics, etc., I try to remind people we're talking about human beings. And they're human beings who play as a team, side by side and that tweaks the individual talent, even if just by a bit. The truth is, a very good player can be greater by virtue of who he's playing alongside. Folks have said it here, batting this player ahead of that player and so on.

Thank you again for such a detailed background we really aren't privy to.

dabvu2498
07-14-2006, 01:37 PM
explains why Kearns really struggles to catch up with even decent fastballs.
He really did (does???) swing through a lot of hittable pitches.

Royals Fan
07-14-2006, 01:37 PM
Team Clark

I heard the Royals wanted Kearns but was unwilling to give up any there good arms except Jermey Affedlt and maybe Mike Macdougal any truth to that matter. Drayton Moore coems from Atlanta/KC 80's schools of thought pitching and D win titles. Why they back off from Kearns.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 01:38 PM
It doesn't make me feel any different about the trade, and honestly that doesn't matter anyway, this like any other trade will be judged by results on the field.

I wish every fan thought this way. I always joke with other people in baseball..."We only trade on paper because they make us, the real trades are based on the results". It's just true.

westofyou
07-14-2006, 01:40 PM
Without a doubt WK has one of the biggest pairs in baseball,

Hence the term "Whale Cords"

Kradokk
07-14-2006, 01:41 PM
Team Clark-

Any idea why they felt Lopez was expendable? I can see the issues with Kearns, but Lopez, especially if he is making the strides you say he is, seems like a lock to hang on to the SS job for a decade to come. Any clue if it had anything to do with money, or the fact that he is a Boras client when it comes time to resign him in the future? Also, any insight into Ryan Wagner, and his struggles, and if going to WAS will help him?

RichRed
07-14-2006, 01:42 PM
Very interesting, TeamClark, thanks for posting that.

I guess I would say that even if Kearns never gets any better, is he alone not worth more than two middle relievers?

But thanks for making me feel a little better about the trade. I needed that. :thumbup:

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 01:44 PM
Team Clark

I heard the Royals wanted Kearns but was unwilling to give up any there good arms except Jermey Affedlt and maybe Mike Macdougal any truth to that matter. Drayton Moore coems from Atlanta/KC 80's schools of thought pitching and D win titles. Why they back off from Kearns.

Buddy Bell wanted Kearns And Larue. Dayton is probably still trying to evaluate what kind of tools are in his toolbox. LaRue could be had. He knows all he has to do is whine a little more when Ross comes back and he'll be wearing another uniform in 72 hours.

flyer85
07-14-2006, 01:44 PM
I wish every fan thought this way. I always joke with other people in baseball..."We only trade on paper because they make us, the real trades are based on the results". It's just true.This board is a wonderful place to find information, exchanges ideas, discuss our "feeliings" about what is going on but much to our disdain the games are still played on the field. :D

And thanks for the insight TC. The one thing we as fans rarely have insight into is how hard players work and what kind of a drive do they have to succeed. Often those two factors have as much to do with success as natural ability.

pedro
07-14-2006, 01:47 PM
Team Clark-

Any idea why they felt Lopez was expendable? I can see the issues with Kearns, but Lopez, especially if he is making the strides you say he is, seems like a lock to hang on to the SS job for a decade to come.


Because he's a HORRIBLE defensive SS who was due a big payday in arb this year.

flyer85
07-14-2006, 01:48 PM
Team Clark-

Any idea why they felt Lopez was expendable? I surmised before the trade yesterday that the Reds may have reached the point where they no longer felt they could tolerate his errors and for whatever reason(because it isn't due to a lack of athleticism), his lack of range. I also suggested that Washington was one of the few teams in baseball who would consider Lopez good enough to be their starting SS.

Chip R
07-14-2006, 01:48 PM
Buddy Bell wanted Kearns And Larue. Dayton is probably still trying to evaluate what kind of tools are in his toolbox. LaRue could be had. He knows all he has to do is whine a little more when Ross comes back and he'll be wearing another uniform in 72 hours.

He whined quite a bit before Ross got hurt and he's still here. As it turned out, having 3 catchers wasn't such a bad move after all. It could be that Wayne intends to keep all 3 for the rest of the year in case one gets hurt.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 01:49 PM
Team Clark-

Any idea why they felt Lopez was expendable? I can see the issues with Kearns, but Lopez, especially if he is making the strides you say he is, seems like a lock to hang on to the SS job for a decade to come. Any clue if it had anything to do with money, or the fact that he is a Boras client when it comes time to resign him in the future? Also, any insight into Ryan Wagner, and his struggles, and if going to WAS will help him?

My understanding is the initial deal was 1 for 1. Kearns for Magic. How it evolved from there I really couldn't give you a fact based answer. Krivsky and Narron probably had enough of Lopez's mental mistakes and all it took was a call from Jimbo to pry him away. I would bet against Krivsky shopping FeLo. Clayton can still pick it and his number were simialr to FeLo's as it stands today. I'd rather see Castro in the lineup everydayfor the next few weeks. Dude's in a groove right now and there is no reason to jump off the wave.

reds44
07-14-2006, 01:49 PM
Great stuff TC. It shines another light on the trade.

Thanks.

BuckWoody
07-14-2006, 01:51 PM
Because he's a HORRIBLE defensive SS who was due a big payday in arb this year.
I wonder how much of a factor it was that Scott Boras is his agent.

Royals Fan
07-14-2006, 01:51 PM
my feelings is still get another power arm like Roberto Hernandez or proven 6 to 7 inning guy like Elmer Dessens. Thse two would not cost that much with there age and but the Reds get tons of expoerince and pitchers that can get ppl out.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 01:52 PM
I wonder how much of a factor it was that Scott Boras is his agent.

It's something that is discussed in our meeting all of time. So I would suffice it to say others think the same way.

pedro
07-14-2006, 01:52 PM
I wonder how much of a factor it was that Scott Boras is his agent.


I'm sure it was a factor. Especially since it was evident that Lopez had to move off SS and Boras might have made that harder to accomplish.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 01:53 PM
my feelings is still get another power arm like Roberto Hernandez or proven 6 to 7 inning guy like Elmer Dessens. Thse two would not cost that much with there age and but the Reds get tons of expoerince and pitchers that can get ppl out.

I would not gamble on Elmer but if they did I would keep him in the pen and try Belisle as the 5th starter.

dabvu2498
07-14-2006, 01:54 PM
I wonder how much of a factor it was that Scott Boras is his agent.
How much effect would Boras have in an arb case? If he asked for a truly ridiculous sum, the arbitrator would side with the team and the player is obligated. To my way of thinking Boras won't become a huge factor until after '08.

vaticanplum
07-14-2006, 01:55 PM
It's something that is discussed in our meeting all of time. So I would suffice it to say others think the same way.

That man is hurting the sport of baseball. Eventually he'll only be shopping his clients to two or three teams. He is poison.

Betterread
07-14-2006, 01:56 PM
I would not gamble on Elmer but if they did I would keep him in the pen and try Belisle as the 5th starter.

Thank you for all the insight you have shared regarding the prinicipals involved in this recent trade.
You like Belisle as a starter? I think his stuff is dramatically crisper in short inning assignments.

Royals Fan
07-14-2006, 01:57 PM
my feelings exactly Elmer has even closed couple games this year before Buddy and Allard pulled the plug on him. Elmer's era is like 3.8 somehting in the AL not to bad in a hittes league.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 01:57 PM
That man is hurting the sport of baseball. Eventually he'll only be shopping his clients to two or three teams. He is poison.

I'd have to agree. Pick up a copy of John Schuerholz's book "Built to win". Great Boras stuff in there.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 01:58 PM
Thank you for all the insight you have shared regarding the prinicipals involved in this recent trade.
You like Belisle as a starter? I think his stuff is dramatically crisper in short inning assignments.

No, I like Belisle where he is but if I had to choose between Belisle and Elmer....

Royals Fan
07-14-2006, 02:00 PM
Team Clark


Are the reds intersted in Roberto Hernandz- he has past closing experince and throw still in the mid 90 for an 41 yeard old.

flyer85
07-14-2006, 02:01 PM
That man is hurting the sport of baseball. Eventually he'll only be shopping his clients to two or three teams. He is poison.He is what he is. A hired gun whose objective is to get the most money possible for his clients, all other considerations be damned. Nobody has ever held a gun to someone's head(at least as far as I know) to make a team pay all that money for a Boras client. Boras is an example of what can happen when management can't control their impulses and urges.

RedsFan75
07-14-2006, 02:02 PM
TC Great stuff as usual, keep us up to date on stuff like this, I don't know about the others here but I love to read this type of info.

REDREAD
07-14-2006, 02:02 PM
Buddy Bell wanted Kearns And Larue. Dayton is probably still trying to evaluate what kind of tools are in his toolbox. LaRue could be had. He knows all he has to do is whine a little more when Ross comes back and he'll be wearing another uniform in 72 hours.

Are you saying LaRue has been whining all year?

REDREAD
07-14-2006, 02:06 PM
How much effect would Boras have in an arb case? If he asked for a truly ridiculous sum, the arbitrator would side with the team and the player is obligated. To my way of thinking Boras won't become a huge factor until after '08.

Yes, that's my thought exactly. Boras is not a factor until his client becomes a free agent. Even then, I'm not sure how much of a factor he really is. It's pretty easy to get A-Rod the biggest contract in the game. Manny Rameriz got a big payday with Boras.

I think the only time Boras is a factor is in the amatuer draft. He often asks for way too much, and he's willing to potentially ruin the kid's career by sending him to the independent league to make a point.

Razor Shines
07-14-2006, 02:07 PM
TC, if you work for the Reds in the future, would you still be able to share stuff like this with us? Just wondering. Great stuff, thanks.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 02:07 PM
Are you saying LaRue has been whining all year?

I would say he has whined in the last month. He did so via the print media recently. Can't blame him in a way. Worked fo Aurilia.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 02:08 PM
Team Clark


Are the reds intersted in Roberto Hernandz- he has past closing experince and throw still in the mid 90 for an 41 yeard old.

I really do not know. Unfortunately, the Crystal ball is a little weak today. :laugh:

REDREAD
07-14-2006, 02:09 PM
I would say he has whined in the last month. He did so via the print media recently. Can't blame him in a way. Worked fo Aurilia.

I guess I didn't see that as whining in the media. Any established player worth his salt in a similiar position would be upset if the new GM brought in a replacement for him (and benched him).

I hope for LaRue's sake, he does get traded elsewhere, since he's not one of Wayne's boys. The bad news is I doubt we get much for him.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 02:09 PM
TC, if you work for the Reds in the future, would you still be able to share stuff like this with us? Just wondering. Great stuff, thanks.

No. I really would imagine that would be crossing the line. I'm probably in the Grey area now.

gonelong
07-14-2006, 02:10 PM
BEYOND the mechanical issues is the fact that he WOULD NOT correct any part of his swing. And I mean NEVER EVER.
...
In retrospect Casey was the same way. "I'm hitting (*avg) so why would I work on this"? Heard it myself from them both in years passed. Great guys. But they just wanted to stay with what they had.

I really can't blame a guy for not wanting to change a swing that has got him through the minors and into the Bigs. Its not like either of those guys can't produce enough to stay in the bigs with the swings they have.

While it is a team game and you'd hope these guys would do everything they could to maximize their potential, these guys are paid individually.

GL

cumberlandreds
07-14-2006, 02:11 PM
Thanks TC for your insights. It proves what I had thought. Kearns is kinda lazy and unwilling to work on things and Krivsky and Narron were tired of the mental lapses that Lopez would have. I really think the Reds are heading the right direction under Krivsky and quite honestly faster than anyone would have thought.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 02:11 PM
I guess I didn't see that as whining in the media. Any established player worth his salt in a similiar position would be upset if the new GM brought in a replacement for him (and benched him).

I hope for LaRue's sake, he does get traded elsewhere, since he's not one of Wayne's boys. The bad news is I doubt we get much for him.

I see your point and do not disagree. Tough spot to be in. Jason and I have been friends for a long time. We bonded when Bob Bafoon was around. No one can comfort a catcher better than another old, beat up cathcer. :laugh:

I called him and told him he was a whiner. He called back, laughed and told me how I could better do unspeakable things to friends and family. Some day soon I am going to find a way to steal his John Deere clothes and hold them ransom, complete with ransom notes and pictures.

RichRed
07-14-2006, 02:13 PM
TeamClark, you say you feel that Krivsky knows what he's doing. Without meaning to derail the thread, can you share any thoughts on the job you think Narron is doing? I know some of us have accused him of having an acute case of "vet love" - do you think he has the patience to let the youngsters work through their growing pains?

Again, thanks for the insight, it's really interesting to get thoughts from someone on the inside.

ramp101
07-14-2006, 02:13 PM
An outsider's perspective:.... I have no problem with who the Reds traded, what gets me is that they couldnt have gotten a whole lot more. In all seriousness, for Kearns alone they should have gotten Bray, Thompson, and Majewski..

oh well, I wish you guys the best and hopefully this trade sures up the pen for not only this year, but for the future too

Heath
07-14-2006, 02:14 PM
I feel like I should be on espn.com chat going PICK MY QUESTION!!! :laugh:

Thanks for the insights on Kearns - this might regain Dunn's focus.

I hate to hear that Buddy Bell's on the hot seat. One of these days he'll have a job he'll be proud to have.

BTW - Sorry to see Huff go, but I thought the Rays did well in the deal.

Thanks as usual, TC.

redsfaninAK
07-14-2006, 02:18 PM
TC I was wondering about about Coffey, you mentioned he was tipping his pitches, did you watch him pitch yesterday and if so was he still doing this?

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 02:21 PM
I feel like I should be on espn.com chat going PICK MY QUESTION!!! :laugh:

Thanks for the insights on Kearns - this might regain Dunn's focus.

I hate to hear that Buddy Bell's on the hot seat. One of these days he'll have a job he'll be proud to have.

BTW - Sorry to see Huff go, but I thought the Rays did well in the deal.

Thanks as usual, TC.

LOL! OK Heath you're on!!!

Dunn is refocused and boy is it showing. I posted awhile ago that if he hit .260 the rest of the year it could propel the Reds to the playoffs.

Buddy is a great, great guy. I'd love to see him get a real team to work with. Just once.

Huff... Man I was real sorry to see him go. Loved watching him rake. I spoke to Ricky Bennett of the Astros yesterday about the deal. They are thrilled. We got some guys back that are decent but the market is not that great. I'm not going to say we got fleeced, but we got all we could. I'd be shocked if we "give away" Crawford. I think he's going to STL for Wainright. I thought that we were sending Huff and Crawford to STL just before the break.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 02:23 PM
TC I was wondering about about Coffey, you mentioned he was tipping his pitches, did you watch him pitch yesterday and if so was he still doing this?

I did not see him pitch. I wish I had. I wanted to see if he had made any adjustments.

Jr's Boy
07-14-2006, 02:23 PM
Team Clark thanks for all the input,i'm sure you put alot of us at ease with this trade.After the bullpen debacle in Milwaukee i'm glad to see a change was made.And I figured alot of people would get their feelings hurt when a change was made,including myself,however it's good to get a little insight on the goings on of said players.

Red Leader
07-14-2006, 02:29 PM
Crawford to St. Louis. Yeah, that might kill us. Try and prevent that will ya'. :cool:

TC, my only question is this, are there still any players currently on the Reds that you know the front office has soured on. It sounds like with Kearns and Lopez, from the way you described, and I know Wagner, too, had worn out their welcome with coaches, teammates, and front office members. Anyone else fall into this category that you'd be suprised if they weren't moved? I think you've hinted that LaRue could be one of those players already...

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 02:30 PM
TeamClark, you say you feel that Krivsky knows what he's doing. Without meaning to derail the thread, can you share any thoughts on the job you think Narron is doing? I know some of us have accused him of having an acute case of "vet love" - do you think he has the patience to let the youngsters work through their growing pains?

Again, thanks for the insight, it's really interesting to get thoughts from someone on the inside.

I did recently post my thoughts on Narron. Overall I think he is doing a very good job. He has the trust of his players. He cares about these guys and he holds them accountable.

Vet love? I really do not believe that. I know some people were concerned that EE did not play right before the break. Narron LOVES this guy. Why play him when his ankle was still not 100% and you have the AS break coming up.

Aurillia and Hatteberg are doing a great job IMO. Did anyone think that Hatteberg would have the type of numbers he has at this point in the season? I didn't. Sean who?

RichRed
07-14-2006, 02:31 PM
LOL! OK Heath you're on!!!

Dunn is refocused and boy is it showing. I posted awhile ago that if he hit .260 the rest of the year it could propel the Reds to the playoffs.

Buddy is a great, great guy. I'd love to see him get a real team to work with. Just once.

Huff... Man I was real sorry to see him go. Loved watching him rake. I spoke to Ricky Bennett of the Astros yesterday about the deal. They are thrilled. We got some guys back that are decent but the market is not that great. I'm not going to say we got fleeced, but we got all we could. I'd be shocked if we "give away" Crawford. I think he's going to STL for Wainright. I thought that we were sending Huff and Crawford to STL just before the break.

Hey, you skipped my question. My turn, my turn! ;)

Edit: Never mind, thanks for responding. :)

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 02:33 PM
Crawford to St. Louis. Yeah, that might kill us. Try and prevent that will ya'. :cool:

TC, my only question is this, are there still any players currently on the Reds that you know the front office has soured on. It sounds like with Kearns and Lopez, from the way you described, and I know Wagner, too, had worn out their welcome with coaches, teammates, and front office members. Anyone else fall into this category that you'd be suprised if they weren't moved? I think you've hinted that LaRue could be one of those players already...

Wagner is a jerk. I usually do not come out that strong AGAINST a player. But he is off the chart. I'm sure Rick Sweet is doing cartwheels. He's someone else's problem.

Dunn is rebounding nicely and will benefit like you can only imagine from Austin being gone. Dunn is now drinking the Narron/Krivsky Kool Aid.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 02:34 PM
Hey, you skipped my question. My turn, my turn! ;)

Edit: Never mind, thanks for responding. :)

I'm combining answers now! LOL! :laugh:

Caveat Emperor
07-14-2006, 02:38 PM
Dunn is rebounding nicely and will benefit like you can only imagine from Austin being gone. Dunn is now drinking the Narron/Krivsky Kool Aid.

I said it on the other board, but I've got this funny feeling that seperating the two of them might be great for their individual careers -- I know, I know: they're professionals, professionals don't make it to the level they do without being dedicated, etc. etc. I just think it's human nature that events like this tend to make people "rededicate" to their craft to take their mind off not seeing their best buddy at work, etc.

Plus, now that they're on seperate squads, whose to say this won't spark a little healthy competition between the two.

I dunno -- the human psyche has unexpected impacts on all sorts of things stemming from deals like this.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 02:39 PM
I said it on the other board, but I've got this funny feeling that seperating the two of them might be great for their individual careers -- I know, I know: they're professionals, professionals don't make it to the level they do without being dedicated, etc. etc. I just think it's human nature that events like this tend to make people "rededicate" to their craft to take their mind off not seeing their best buddy at work, etc.

Plus, now that they're on seperate squads, whose to say this won't spark a little healthy competition between the two.

I dunno -- the human psyche has unexpected impacts on all sorts of things stemming from deals like this.

I couldn't agree more. I had to be separated from my buddies in grade school. Good thing or I'd still be there.

Chip R
07-14-2006, 02:40 PM
Dunn is rebounding nicely and will benefit like you can only imagine from Austin being gone. Dunn is now drinking the Narron/Krivsky Kool Aid.

Could you be a little more specific on why you feel Dunn will benefit from this? I'm not doubting you but I'd like to hear why. As for drinking the Kool Aid, is he wanting to become a more complete player?

TOBTTReds
07-14-2006, 02:42 PM
TC, how do you know all the Reds players? I didnt think you ever worked/played in the Reds org.

michst
07-14-2006, 02:44 PM
Just curious why have no people come out and said this was a good trade for the reds? It seems every article and anonymous sources they quote say how the red's got fleeced? Is it because most people in the know just don't respond to other team's trades?

westofyou
07-14-2006, 02:47 PM
As for drinking the Kool Aid, is he wanting to become a more complete player?
Perhaps he's adding sugar to his kool-aid now, kool-aid without sugar is the suck.

I think Adam needs to work with Lester Hayes on his fielding.

TOBTTReds
07-14-2006, 02:47 PM
Just curious why have no people come out and said this was a good trade for the reds? It seems every article and anonymous sources they quote say how the red's got fleeced? Is it because most people in the know just don't respond to other team's trades?

Because people who write about baseball don't understand the game very well. They grade trades based on name recognition and fan favorites. They are payed to write, not understand the game.

NoColonBoy
07-14-2006, 02:51 PM
Great insight from Team Clark, and there's one other aspect to this trade that hasn't been played up.

Personally, I think that, talent for talent, the Reds came out on the short end. However, I think that Krivsky was looking at Kearns and Lopez and rightly decided that he didn't want to pay them the combined $5-$7 million that they would be able to get in arbitration in '07. He'd rather spend that money elsewhere and, oh by the way, bring in two young middle relievers--one righty, one lefty--that he can hold on to for a few years.

Now, I'm not a big fan of this trade (that said, I'm also not a big fan of Kearns or Lopez--so there's no man crush here), but if I put these two things together, I can put together a pretty good argument in favor of it.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 02:57 PM
TC, how do you know all the Reds players? I didnt think you ever worked/played in the Reds org.

I had media credentials for a few years, then I got back into the game.

pedro
07-14-2006, 02:57 PM
Great insight from Team Clark, and there's one other aspect to this trade that hasn't been played up.

Personally, I think that, talent for talent, the Reds came out on the short end. However, I think that Krivsky was looking at Kearns and Lopez and rightly decided that he didn't want to pay them the combined $5-$7 million that they would be able to get in arbitration in '07. He'd rather spend that money elsewhere and, oh by the way, bring in two young middle relievers--one righty, one lefty--that he can hold on to for a few years.

Now, I'm not a big fan of this trade (that said, I'm also not a big fan of Kearns or Lopez--so there's no man crush here), but if I put these two things together, I can put together a pretty good argument in favor of it.

they'd have made 10-11 million combined next year IMO.

Team Clark
07-14-2006, 02:58 PM
Could you be a little more specific on why you feel Dunn will benefit from this? I'm not doubting you but I'd like to hear why. As for drinking the Kool Aid, is he wanting to become a more complete player?

Yes I can be more specific but I need to run to get to the airport. (If I had a dollar for every time I used that one) Seriously I can get more specific. I think you will find it interesting. I'll try to check back in tonight.

NoColonBoy
07-14-2006, 03:04 PM
they'd have made 10-11 million combined next year IMO.

You may be closer to the mark at 10-11 million; I was being conservative.

I also want to be clear that I am not implying that this trade was a salary dump. A salary dump is one where the team has no interest in re-spending the money to make itself better (and, no, resigning your own players doesn't count in "re-spending" the money). I do think the trade gives us financial flexibility for 2007 (now, if we can just shed the $4 million plus owed to a certain catcher, we'd really be on to something).

Red Leader
07-14-2006, 03:07 PM
(now, if we can just shed the $4 million plus owed to a certain catcher, we'd really be on to something).

I'm almost certain that if Ross stays healthy, LaRue will be traded by the deadline. I doubt we get much of anything for him, hopefully a decent prospect in A ball, but I think he'll be moved. With the $ savings in the Kearns/Lopez trade, we can afford to throw a little money with LaRue to make sure he is moved.

CySeymour
07-14-2006, 03:13 PM
TC, you hinted that Dunn getting away from Kearns may in fact help Dunn...do you see Jr. as a good influence on Dunn or not really a factor?

Yachtzee
07-14-2006, 03:21 PM
Perhaps he's adding sugar to his kool-aid now, kool-aid without sugar is the suck.

I think Adam needs to work with Lester Hayes on his fielding.

What are the MLB rules on covering yourself in a tub of Stick-um?

http://usesoap.com/images/news/lester_hayes.jpg

Az Red
07-14-2006, 03:32 PM
Hey Mod Guys, Is it possible to plan a chat session with TC? I know we are taking advantage of him but this is the best thread I've read since 2000.

CrackerJack
07-14-2006, 03:35 PM
Yes I can be more specific but I need to run to get to the airport. (If I had a dollar for every time I used that one) Seriously I can get more specific. I think you will find it interesting. I'll try to check back in tonight.

I'm guessing something along the lines of Kearns' habits/ethics and attitude rubbing off on Dunn as a close team pal....?

jimbo
07-14-2006, 03:42 PM
I want to thank Team Clark for some fabulous insight that most Reds fans do not typically get to see. This is one of the most enjoyable threads I have ever read on this board. Thanks again.

I just want to also say that I think Krivsky and Co. is sending this organization and team in a direction that us Reds fans have not seen in a long time. That direction being bringing in players that may not be the big name, but know how to play the game. He is concentrating on fundamentally sound players who play sound defense. He is concentrating on developing young pitchers as he realizes this team cannot compete on the open market for elite established pitching. He wants young prospects who are coachable. This trade yesterday in my eyes demonstrates exactly where Krivsky and Castellini are taking this organization, and I absolutely love it.

Puffy
07-14-2006, 03:55 PM
While I respect TC and agree with all he said, I still feel this trade was not cost-effective. The Reds packaged two guys who had value and didn't get equal value back, IMO. I have no problem trading Kearns - as a matter of fact I stated just a couple of weeks ago that i didn't see him getting too much better as his swing was just a mess and it has been for a couple of years now and we no longer could attribute that to the shoulder. I do have a problem trading Lopez, but for value I'd trade any Red not named Griffey or Dunn.

My whole problem is this is a win now trade (repairing the bullpen) for a team that is not a WS contender. They just aren't, and no two bullpen guys are going to make them a WS contender. The Reds took valuable resources, packaged them together and sold them for .60 on the dollar.

Thats my problem with the trade.

Spitball
07-14-2006, 04:17 PM
Thanks, TC. We are indeed fortunate to have you on this board. :thumbup:





My whole problem is this is a win now trade (repairing the bullpen) for a team that is not a WS contender. They just aren't, and no two bullpen guys are going to make them a WS contender. The Reds took valuable resources, packaged them together and sold them for .60 on the dollar.

Thats my problem with the trade.

Puffy, I agree this is not a World Series contender, but I'm glad Krivsky is boldly pretending it is. Maybe the Reds got .60 cents on the dollar, but sometimes you have to take that exchange to get what you need. Krivsky made a daring and imperative move in hopes of saving this season's hope. Even if it isn't WS worthy, I believe the fans deserve a continued effort to compete.

Besides, I believe the value on middle relievers may have moved the decimal point a bit. Strong middle men are important and failed number five starters and aging veterans won't get it done any more.

RedEye
07-14-2006, 04:24 PM
I'm relatively new to this board, so I'm going to ask a stupid question: what sort of insider is Team Clark? I mean, I know we can't know his true identity... or can we? Does he work for the Devil Rays now?

If anyone knows the answers, feel free to email me independently. I just really enjoyed reading this thread and would like to know where all this good stuff is coming from.

Thanks!

Spitball
07-14-2006, 04:31 PM
I'm relatively new to this board, so I'm going to ask a stupid question: what sort of insider is Team Clark? I mean, I know we can't know his true identity... or can we?



Team Clark is actually Jerry Narron's twelve year old daughter....:evil:

gonelong
07-14-2006, 04:32 PM
I'm guessing something along the lines of Kearns' habits/ethics and attitude rubbing off on Dunn as a close team pal....?

I don't neccessarily a case of either guy being a bad guy or teammate. Like all good pals, you tend to hang out together, often to the detriment of other things. I know when I was in college I'd go hang out with my buddies at the rec, their house, or the bar at the drop of the hat while my homework was consistently getting shorted.

Sometimes guys need to have their little party broken up to get the maximum out of their talent. I have a couple of young guys at work that I had to do this with. They were younger, a year removed from college. Each showed pretty good promise. After some time it became obvious that their focus was not always on the task at hand, but where they were going to golf after work, etc. Once we split these guys up they both were more focused and more valuable. I had to trade one of the guy off to another project to get it done, but my guy and the guy I traded away were both more valuable after than they were before.

Sometimes people just get a bit too comfortable with their surroundings and it takes something to stir them from their "slumber".

GL

Puffy
07-14-2006, 04:33 PM
Thanks, TC. We are indeed fortunate to have you on this board. :thumbup:




Puffy, I agree this is not a World Series contender, but I'm glad Krivsky is boldly pretending it is. Maybe the Reds got .60 cents on the dollar, but sometimes you have to take that exchange to get what you need. Krivsky made a daring and imperative move in hopes of saving this season's hope. Even if it isn't WS worthy, I believe the fans deserve a continued effort to compete.

Besides, I believe the value on middle relievers may have moved the decimal point a bit. Strong middle men are important and failed number five starters and aging veterans won't get it done any more.

Hey, I agree about the bullpen - I mentioned when O'Brien took over that his inability to piece together a bullpen was beyond acceptable. And i understand the compete aspect.

But I still look at this whole big picture and think that the idea of a trade is getting value for your resources. Look, Isiah Thomas has won every trade he has made for the Knicks. He keeps trading away less talented players for a more talented return. The problem is he now has a team that has no cohesiveness, no team players, and a horrible attitude and he is left drafting Renaldo Balkman in the first round because of intangibles. So I understand that sometimes you might lose a trade talent wise to get a better "team"

But the fact is the Reds had two valuable resources here and instead of seperating and getting value, they packaged them together and got a bunch of maybe's back. Thats bad, IMO. Majic and Bray are not sure things, and they sure aren't sure things when going from Washington to GAB. Royce Clayton, throw in or not, doesn't belong here. The Reds already have him in Castro or Olemedo. Thompson had shoulder surgery, which is scary in and of itself. And Harris is a utility guy. Best case.

So, I truly, truly hate this trade.

HotCorner
07-14-2006, 04:40 PM
My whole problem is this is a win now trade (repairing the bullpen) for a team that is not a WS contender. They just aren't, and no two bullpen guys are going to make them a WS contender. The Reds took valuable resources, packaged them together and sold them for .60 on the dollar.

Thats my problem with the trade.

I keep hearing that the Reds are not WS contenders. While I agree they are not the favorites in the NL to reach the WS, the NL is so watered down that ANY team that makes the playoffs is a WS contender.

The Mets have serious questions regarding their rotation. The Cardinals have questions about their rotation as well plus their offense is a bit suspect.

I'm not stating that trade makes the Reds the favorites but it addresses one of the biggest flaws on this team. One reason the '99 team stayed in the race that season was because of a very reliable bullpen. If this team could get close to the effectiveness of the '99 pen, this team can win a lot of games because the offense never gives up late in games.

(Please note that IMO any NL team that makes it to the WS is fodder for the AL this season.)

Spitball
07-14-2006, 04:48 PM
Team Clark is actually Jerry Narron's twelve year old daughter....:evil:

RedEye, Team Clark can tell you for sure but I believe he is a former sports writer and now is employed by the D-Rays. I believe he may have been involved in some capacity with Moeller baseball.

Puffy, we'll have to see what happens. I'm not really certain what trade value Kearns and Lopez actually had individually, but I believe it isn't nearly as high we believe. I do think the Reds have the parts to replace those two so perhaps that justifies fortifying yhe bullpen.

Unassisted
07-14-2006, 04:49 PM
Just wanted to echo the thanks to Team Clark. I think his insights are a great read - and I'm not just saying that because we're on the same side of the fence for this trade. :thumbup:

Steve4192
07-14-2006, 04:54 PM
I keep hearing that the Reds are not WS contenders. While I agree they are not the favorites in the NL to reach the WS, the NL is so watered down that ANY team that makes the playoffs is a WS contender.

You beat me to the punch.

Any NL team that can make it in to the playoffs has a chance of winning the pennant. There is no true powerhouse team that looks like they would mop the floor with the Reds. If the Reds make it to the playoffs, I would not be surprised in the least if they ended up winning the NL pennant.

Of course, actually winnning the world series against one of the stacked AL squads is a different story, but anything can happen in a short series. There are plenty of examples of massive underdogs doing the unthinkable once on the big stage.

You don't choose the year ... the year chooses you.

Mario-Rijo
07-14-2006, 05:15 PM
Team Clark you just helped Wayne in a indirect manner, at least from my perspective. I was back & forth on this deal from the moment it happened and now I see it as I should. Again thanks for the help.

jmac
07-14-2006, 05:56 PM
Puffy, we'll have to see what happens. I'm not really certain what trade value Kearns and Lopez actually had individually, but I believe it isn't nearly as high we believe. I do think the Reds have the parts to replace those two so perhaps that justifies fortifying yhe bullpen.

this has been my thinkin.while some on here would not have done a westbrook for kearns,would cleveland even done that deal?could kearns have gained a shields?
i liked kearns but juan encarnacion certainly puts up similar numbers yet i dont think he would have got either of those 2.
lopez has a breakout year but this year takes a step back.which is the real lopez?
i just think sometimes we as fans place our home team players value higher than what rest of baseball does.

RedEye
07-14-2006, 06:12 PM
RedEye, Team Clark can tell you for sure but I believe he is a former sports writer and now is employed by the D-Rays. I believe he may have been involved in some capacity with Moeller baseball.


Thanks for the info! I'll wait and see if TC gives me more info on his identity.

Jpup
07-14-2006, 06:20 PM
Thanks for the info! I'll wait and see if TC gives me more info on his identity.

he's a scout for the DRays.

danwl
07-14-2006, 06:34 PM
(Please note that IMO any NL team that makes it to the WS is fodder for the AL this season.)

Yeah, just like 1990. :D

buckeyenut
07-14-2006, 08:24 PM
While I respect TC and agree with all he said, I still feel this trade was not cost-effective. The Reds packaged two guys who had value and didn't get equal value back, IMO. I have no problem trading Kearns - as a matter of fact I stated just a couple of weeks ago that i didn't see him getting too much better as his swing was just a mess and it has been for a couple of years now and we no longer could attribute that to the shoulder. I do have a problem trading Lopez, but for value I'd trade any Red not named Griffey or Dunn.

My whole problem is this is a win now trade (repairing the bullpen) for a team that is not a WS contender. They just aren't, and no two bullpen guys are going to make them a WS contender. The Reds took valuable resources, packaged them together and sold them for .60 on the dollar.

Thats my problem with the trade.
Well, I think it could make this team better next year and beyond.

The bullpen was hemoraging games. The guys we got will be very good next year and should give us an excellent base to work with. We can move phillips to SS and Freel to 2B and our offense should be close. If Denorfia is not the real deal, we use the money we save on Kearns and Lopez to sign a FA OFer in the offseason to help. More likely, the move allows us to have money available to sign a SP or two if we find one to our liking.

I don't know if Harris or the spect will be any good. But Harris probably gets Freels utility role next year if you have to play Freel every day. Clayton is filler, nothing more.

Getting the arms PLUS the money freed up next year gives you more flexibility in the offseason.

buckeyenut
07-14-2006, 08:25 PM
ESPECIALLY if moving Kearns makes Dunn better, our offense might just improve even this year as crazy as that might be, if done right.

redsfan30
07-14-2006, 08:34 PM
Fantastic stuff!!

Thank you, Team Clark! I look forward to reading your response on the Dunn/Narron/Krivsky situation.

GAC
07-14-2006, 08:47 PM
But the fact is the Reds had two valuable resources here and instead of seperating and getting value, they packaged them together and got a bunch of maybe's back.

But I really don't know how "valuable" Lopez and Kearns are/were? If we look historically at each of these two player individually, we can speak of their age, upside, and potential (which are intangibles).... but looking at their performance from a statistical standpoint - not too impressive IMO. Lopez had a good year last year, but is he gonna repeat/match it? he wasn't on course this year with a sub-700 OPS over the last month. And I really haven't seen the defensive improvement/maturity that many expected. Kearns has been pretty sketchy and erratic. Everyone has been waiting for him to break out. I have always felt the guy had a lazy streak in him.

These pitchers we got can, yes, be labelled as maybes. But they are young arms, so we really don't know at this stage. So from my perspective, I think it is really too early to rate or judge this trade until we see how these young guys perform over a consistent period of time. But I think the tightness in the pitching market right now, and where everyone is out there direly searching for it, forced Krivsky to have to make a deal like he did in order to get the arms.

But I don't hate the trade. I'm kinda ambivalent towards it right now.

But Red fans always have a habit of over-valuing their players. ;)

acredsfan
07-14-2006, 09:23 PM
TC- I have to believe that the most important part of a good scouting department is the ablility to scout their own team. The Indians trading away BP for essentially nothing may be one glaring example, although maybe all he needed was the proverbial change of scenery. But also, just as important may be the ablility to keep the secrets inside the department so other teams don't catch on if you think a player is overachieving or you see a big hole in his abilities that may not be quite as apparent at the time. See the Chris Reitsma deal with Atlanta where again we ended up with essentially nothing when we were supposed to be getting such highly reguarded pitchers in return. What I'm saying is what I believe to be the case with this trade is the hometown fans overvaluing a couple players simply because they play for our team. Honestly, Kearn's average can be equalled or bettered by Denorfia in my opinion, and either way their offense was part of the surplus we had, and although it will be missed, hopefully it gives guys like Freel more playing time. I'd honestly rather have Freel at 2nd every day with Brandon Phillips at SS. Freel leading off with either Deno or BP up top would be a very good lineup, and the speed gained would be huge. OK, I'll shut up now. Thank you so much for your input, you are definately a great asset to the board and I look forward to reading your posts. We should just create an "Ask Team Clark" thread.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 12:14 AM
TC- I have to believe that the most important part of a good scouting department is the ablility to scout their own team. The Indians trading away BP for essentially nothing may be one glaring example, although maybe all he needed was the proverbial change of scenery. But also, just as important may be the ablility to keep the secrets inside the department so other teams don't catch on if you think a player is overachieving or you see a big hole in his abilities that may not be quite as apparent at the time. See the Chris Reitsma deal with Atlanta where again we ended up with essentially nothing when we were supposed to be getting such highly reguarded pitchers in return. What I'm saying is what I believe to be the case with this trade is the hometown fans overvaluing a couple players simply because they play for our team. Honestly, Kearn's average can be equalled or bettered by Denorfia in my opinion, and either way their offense was part of the surplus we had, and although it will be missed, hopefully it gives guys like Freel more playing time. I'd honestly rather have Freel at 2nd every day with Brandon Phillips at SS. Freel leading off with either Deno or BP up top would be a very good lineup, and the speed gained would be huge. OK, I'll shut up now. Thank you so much for your input, you are definately a great asset to the board and I look forward to reading your posts. We should just create an "Ask Team Clark" thread.

Wow, just got back to the hotel and this is one heck of a post. Makes guys like me nervous about our jobs. The Reds did get fleeced in the Reitsma deal simly because the Braves knew exactly what they had. I bet Schuerholz is still giggling in his sleep over that one.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 12:21 AM
RedEye, Team Clark can tell you for sure but I believe he is a former sports writer and now is employed by the D-Rays. I believe he may have been involved in some capacity with Moeller baseball.

Here's the run down.

1992-1993 & ST 1994 Pittsburgh Pirates organization as a catcher. Some kid named Kendall got in my way! :devil: Ohhh man. Please don't look up my stats. I'm a SABR nightmare.

Mets organization coach at AAA Tidewater 95-98.

Expos professional scout. 98-99

Anaheim Angels roving catching instructor 2002.

Florence Freedom prison inmate 2003.:laugh:

Well needed vacation 2004.

2005 Player Development

This season Tampa Bay dual role in Scouting and Player Development. Major League Scout and I work with the new catchers every few weeks.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 12:33 AM
Could you be a little more specific on why you feel Dunn will benefit from this? I'm not doubting you but I'd like to hear why. As for drinking the Kool Aid, is he wanting to become a more complete player?

Ok... I really want to avoid "dogging" anyone here. Dunn will benefit this way. First off he will be going to the ballpark with JR everyday at 2:30-2:45. Not 3:55. The ball started rolling on this a few weeks ago but now any "distractions" are playing in another city. Dunn, who is already working harder now than at any point in his career will more than likely learn how to hit vs. taking a cut. Will he still strike out? Yes. Not as much but nonetheless... yes. Will he still try to pull outside pitches? Probably? But in about 100-125AB's you'll start to see him settle into his swing and pound some ball the other way. Junior started doing it again and like magic the shift is vanishing. Will he let 2-0 fastballs whiz by with runners on first and second... Probably NOT! I know, because I have been told, that they are really pounding him about HOW TO HAVE a quality AB. They are taking the steps like they are teaching a 6 year old. Funny thing is that it seems to be working.

Austin, his whole life, has had things handed to him. If you know Austin at all you know he was the Golden Child. When he did not like how he was treated or talked too someone else made the adjustment. Well big boy, you're out of the nest. Time to fend for yourself. There will be no more running to Lexington and sleeping in your old bed after you have had a talking too. Some of you think I am kidding. Austin is a lot of fun to be around... so was Brandon Larson. At some point you have to get serious if you want your game to get better.

Oh and when Billy Hatcher gets in your butt about something, he's telling you because he knows what the hell he's talking about. Billy does not want to see every ball that gets close to the wall dropped or misplayed because you run on your heels or didn't hustle to get to it. The shoulder shrugging... better drop it before Frank gets ahold of you.

Dunn did whatever Kearns did and vice versa. Not anymore. Dunn is going to hang with the hardest worker on this team and he's going to put forth the effort. Period.

LINEDRIVER
07-15-2006, 12:38 AM
Hey Team Clark,

Since we go back many years, read my below ramblings and let us know what you think.

I think Krivsky was looking for an opportunity to dump a bunch of K's out of that lineup. Dunn & Kearns were on on their way to whiffing around 350 total times this season. After all, somebody has got to put the damn ball in play.

Also, I'm thinking that Kearns has gained a reputation over the last few yrs that he's not willing to listen or work to improve his batting stroke. I believe there is an outfielder on the Reds who is not willing to work harder, at least up to now, to improve his defensive game. The 2 guys are the best of buddies and the poor work habits have rubbed off on one another. When a couple of guys are only giving 85% and maybe 90% on good days, some teammates can become a bit offended, etc. Kriv picked up on this and was thinking about or waiting for an opportunity to break up the twosome.

During the press conference on Thursday, I believe I heard Narron refer to Royce Clayton with a comment along the lines of, "He's a true professional ballplayer, a veteran who can make the routine plays, a guy who can take charge of an infield." I thought to myself, "Wow, taking charge of an infield, that could be somewhat of a dig at FeLo."

I'm in agreement that FeLo was at least partially traded due to the fact that he was a Scott Boros client, but I also think that FeLo's game has slipped, .... So why not get rid of him while somebody WANTS him and before his stock goes even lower?

I'm expecting that Kriv & Narron will give SERIOUS consideration to moving EE to 1B before the 2007 season starts IF he cant get it together over the rest of this season. Narron can not live with those errors. I've suspected a disconnect with Bucky Dent and EE. Kriv should consider hiring Ronnie Oester in the VERY near future to work exclusively with EE on footwork, throwing mechanics, etc. If you recall Team Clark, we saw Reds' coach Ronnie Oester about 5 yrs ago playing 3B during pre-game infield drills. We chuckled as EACH and EVERY throw to 2B & 1B from the then 45 year-old Oester was an absolute bullet and right on target. WE both agreed that we just saw a VERY impressive display of knowledge and execution. O has had his problems with the old Reds' regime, however, I cant imagine him saying NO if Kriv phoned him at the farm and offered him that assignment. Oester would not have to suit up for the games, just work with EE before games and possibly on the road games to start things off. If Dent is has his feeling hurt, so what? We're not about sending messages, we're about winning ballgames.

DoogMinAmo
07-15-2006, 12:39 AM
So TC, what changed Dunn to make him more motivated all of a sudden? You make it sound like this began pre-trade.

Brutus
07-15-2006, 12:42 AM
Team Clark, great posts, great insights and great explanations.

Interestingly enough, I've already noticed Dunn seems to be having better at-bats recently in the last few weeks. His average has come up and he's getting more and more singles and doubles while cutting down on the K's.

traderumor
07-15-2006, 12:52 AM
I think most of Dunn's BA uptick has been good ole BABIP--he was getting smoked on luck there for too long and the worm has been turning recently.

TC, I join everyone else in thanking you for taking us slightly behind the scenes. I've been on the "his swing is too long" with Kearns all season and figured that is what it is. I still would have preferred him in a package for a middling starter, though, but I am really excited about Bray. I think he will be the one who makes this deal for the Reds.

Razor Shines
07-15-2006, 12:55 AM
Oh and when Billy Hatcher gets in your butt about something, he's telling you because he knows what the hell he's talking about. Billy does not want to see every ball that gets close to the wall dropped or misplayed because you run on your heels or didn't hustle to get to it. The shoulder shrugging... better drop it before Frank gets ahold of you.

.
You've gotta do what you've gotta do to get these young guys attention....I'm just kidding.
As has been said thank you so much, TC, for taking time out of your schedule to give us on the outside a little look in.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 01:17 AM
Hey Team Clark,

Since we go back many years, read my below ramblings and let us know what you think.

I think Krivsky was looking for an opportunity to dump a bunch of K's out of that lineup. Dunn & Kearns were on on their way to whiffing around 350 total times this season. After all, somebody has got to put the damn ball in play.

Also, I'm thinking that Kearns has gained a reputation over the last few yrs that he's not willing to listen or work to improve his batting stroke. I believe there is an outfielder on the Reds who is not willing to work harder, at least up to now, to improve his defensive game. The 2 guys are the best of buddies and the poor work habits have rubbed off on one another. When a couple of guys are only giving 85% and maybe 90% on good days, some teammates can become a bit offended, etc. Kriv picked up on this and was thinking about or waiting for an opportunity to break up the twosome.

During the press conference on Thursday, I believe I heard Narron refer to Royce Clayton with a comment along the lines of, "He's a true professional ballplayer, a veteran who can make the routine plays, a guy who can take charge of an infield."

I thought to myself, "Wow, taking charge of an infield, that could be somewhat of a dig at FeLo." I'm in agreement that FeLo was at least partially traded due to the fact that he was a Scott Boros client, but I also think that FeLo's game has slipped, .... So why not get rid of him while somebody WANTS him and before his stock goes even lower?

I'm expecting that Kriv & Narron will give SERIOUS consideration to moving EE to 1B before the 2007 season starts IF he cant get it together over the rest of this season. Narron can not live with those errors. I've suspected a disconnect with Bucky Dent and EE. Kriv should consider hiring Ronnie Oester in the VERY near future to work exclusively with EE on footwork, throwing mechanics, etc. If you recall Team Clark, we saw Reds' coach Ronnie Oester about 5 yrs ago playing 3B during pre-game infield drills. We chuckled as EACH and EVERY throw to 2B & 1B from the then 45 year-old Oester was an absolute bullet and right on target. WE both agreed that we just saw a VERY impressive display of knowledge and execution. O has had his problems with the old Reds' regime, however, I cant imagine him saying NO if Kriv phoned him at the farm and offered him that assignment. Oester would not have to suit up for the games, just work with EE before games and possibly on the road games to start things off. If Dent is has his feeling hurt, so what? We're not about sending messages, we're about winning ballgames.

I know some of the SABR folks will not like the line of thinking but when you whiff that much you are decreasing your chances of putting a ball in play that could get you a better net result. IMO you just can not have two guys up there with a man on third getting dispatched in 6-8 pitches total without having touched a ball. Funny how Hatteberg is 4th in fewest swings and misses in the Big Leagues and he is performing pretty well. Hatteberg has never been on a losing team. Keep the streak alive!!

Dunn and Kearns lack of hustle or just willingness to do anything on the field at times has been documented on this board a number fo times. Credit to Dunn for getting with the program. I just hope he sticks with it.

I'm sure Krivsky was making a small dig at FeLo. Maybe that was a wake up call. Shame Clayton booted an easy one tonight. I bet the fans wore him out.

O was ridiculous in IF practice. If memory serves he was working with Todd Walker. Todd was having difficulty at the bag receiving and then delivering the ball on double plays. O picks up a glove and someone is hitting ROCKETS to him at 3B. He's picking them like someone is handing them to him. Smooth as silk. He is firing the ball right on a dime to Walker who was also shaking his head. Each one of Ronnie's throws, if not caught, would have put a whole in Walkers sternum. The way he made that look so effortless was sickening. EE has improved somewhat but it may take some special O time for him to "get it".

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 01:19 AM
So TC, what changed Dunn to make him more motivated all of a sudden? You make it sound like this began pre-trade.

There was a meeting and a lengthy "one way" conversation. I do not have all the details and I probably will never get them. I do know that since that day Adam is a changed man. Must have been intense.

jimbo
07-15-2006, 01:19 AM
Interestingly enough, I've already noticed Dunn seems to be having better at-bats recently in the last few weeks. His average has come up and he's getting more and more singles and doubles while cutting down on the K's.

I think it coincides with the about the same time he started using a lighter bat. TC or someone else may be able to verify it, but I'm sure I read it somewhere.

jimbo
07-15-2006, 01:26 AM
Team Clark......do you think Oester, if given a chance, could be a good manager? When I played high school ball, I went to a baseball clinic where Oester taught the basics of hitting. I learned a lot from him and remember him being very good at teaching and communicating. I still think it's a shame how he was treated by Bowden.

LINEDRIVER
07-15-2006, 01:39 AM
Shame Clayton booted an easy one tonight. I bet the fans wore him out.

A bit ironic that FeLo was charged with a fielding error on the first ball hit to him as the new Washington SS. He muffed a routine doubleplay grounder in the 2nd inning, the runners were safe at 1st and 2nd base.

FeLo batted 2nd and went 0-for-4.
Kearns played CF and batted clean-up. He went 0-for-3 and was hit by a pitch.
FeLo & Kearns left a total of 10 runners on base.
FeLo & Kearns with 2 outs left a total of 7 runners on base.

crazybob60
07-15-2006, 01:59 AM
O was ridiculous in IF practice. If memory serves he was working with Todd Walker. Todd was having difficulty at the bag receiving and then delivering the ball on double plays. O picks up a glove and someone is hitting ROCKETS to him at 3B. He's picking them like someone is handing them to him. Smooth as silk. He is firing the ball right on a dime to Walker who was also shaking his head. Each one of Ronnie's throws, if not caught, would have put a whole in Walkers sternum. The way he made that look so effortless was sickening. EE has improved somewhat but it may take some special O time for him to "get it".

This with Ronnie O was obviously a while ago, but other than his recent brush with the law in Campbell County does anybody know what Ronnie is up to these days? Does he still have a job in baseball doing anything or is he working elsewhere?

StillFunkyB
07-15-2006, 09:25 AM
Ok... I really want to avoid "dogging" anyone here. Dunn will benefit this way. First off he will be going to the ballpark with JR everyday at 2:30-2:45. Not 3:55. The ball started rolling on this a few weeks ago but now any "distractions" are playing in another city. Dunn, who is already working harder now than at any point in his career will more than likely learn how to hit vs. taking a cut. Will he still strike out? Yes. Not as much but nonetheless... yes. Will he still try to pull outside pitches? Probably? But in about 100-125AB's you'll start to see him settle into his swing and pound some ball the other way. Junior started doing it again and like magic the shift is vanishing. Will he let 2-0 fastballs whiz by with runners on first and second... Probably NOT! I know, because I have been told, that they are really pounding him about HOW TO HAVE a quality AB. They are taking the steps like they are teaching a 6 year old. Funny thing is that it seems to be working.

Austin, his whole life, has had things handed to him. If you know Austin at all you know he was the Golden Child. When he did not like how he was treated or talked too someone else made the adjustment. Well big boy, you're out of the nest. Time to fend for yourself. There will be no more running to Lexington and sleeping in your old bed after you have had a talking too. Some of you think I am kidding. Austin is a lot of fun to be around... so was Brandon Larson. At some point you have to get serious if you want your game to get better.

Oh and when Billy Hatcher gets in your butt about something, he's telling you because he knows what the hell he's talking about. Billy does not want to see every ball that gets close to the wall dropped or misplayed because you run on your heels or didn't hustle to get to it. The shoulder shrugging... better drop it before Frank gets ahold of you.

Dunn did whatever Kearns did and vice versa. Not anymore. Dunn is going to hang with the hardest worker on this team and he's going to put forth the effort. Period.

I was able to catch the highlights last night on BBTN (amazingly) and noticed Dunn's HR. It JUMPED out at me because it didn't look like he was "taking a cut", it was just a good swing, and the ball went out.

Good stuff!

NJReds
07-15-2006, 09:51 AM
There was a meeting and a lengthy "one way" conversation. I do not have all the details and I probably will never get them. I do know that since that day Adam is a changed man. Must have been intense.


Pure speculation on my part, but I'm guessing that this wouldn't have happened under the old regime.

Sham
07-15-2006, 10:09 AM
Fantastic information TC. Thanks very much.

I have long felt Dunn was far below his athletic potential as an outfielder. Here is a guy who played QB at UT, and has all the athletic ability he needs to be a fine left fielder.

RedRoser
07-15-2006, 11:09 AM
Here's the run down.

1992-1993 & ST 1994 Pittsburgh Pirates organization as a catcher. Some kid named Kendall got in my way! :devil: Ohhh man. Please don't look up my stats. I'm a SABR nightmare.

Mets organization coach at AAA Tidewater 95-98.

Expos professional scout. 98-99

Anaheim Angels roving catching instructor 2002.

Florence Freedom prison inmate 2003.:laugh:

Well needed vacation 2004.

2005 Player Development

This season Tampa Bay dual role in Scouting and Player Development. Major League Scout and I work with the new catchers every few weeks.


TC:
Was the 2005 Player Development a position with the REDS organization or ?
If not, when did you work for the Reds or how are you so intimately familiar with the organization?

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 11:41 AM
TC:
Was the 2005 Player Development a position with the REDS organization or ?
If not, when did you work for the Reds or how are you so intimately familiar with the organization?

I covered the Reds for Baseball Pressbox in 2000 and 2001. When I was not roving for Anaheim I was still using my credentials to work with BP in 2002. A lot of the guys I had played with, against or coached were in the bigs at the time. I had a better relationship with a lot of the players just because there was a little more trust in me. I had played the game, coached and just simply knew a lot of them. I was not out to expose anyone but give fans a different perspective. It worked pretty well.

Tom Hume, Ken Sr and myself all wrote for the site. Doc. Scott, Buckeye Nut and a few others from Redszone were also instrumental in the site. Linedriver was a major contributor as well. Maybe someday he can tell our favorite Robert Fick story.

SteelSD
07-15-2006, 12:00 PM
I know some of the SABR folks will not like the line of thinking but when you whiff that much you are decreasing your chances of putting a ball in play that could get you a better net result.

The reason folks don't like that line of thinking, TC, is that it's an inaccurate line of thinking. Sounds intuitive at first glance, but doesn't work over the long haul. I know you're just responding to postulation as to Krivsky's potential motivation for moving Kearns and Lopez. And Krivsky comes from a team that's long tried to build an offense around low Isolated Discipline high-contact rate hitters who can allegedly play defense. The result has been volatile below-average offense that spiraled into the abyss last season. If he was trying to jettison strikeouts for the sake of getting rid of strikeouts, that's a purely awful plan.

DoogMinAmo
07-15-2006, 12:01 PM
There was a meeting and a lengthy "one way" conversation. I do not have all the details and I probably will never get them. I do know that since that day Adam is a changed man. Must have been intense.

One word: awesome.

Thanks a bunch TC!

acredsfan
07-15-2006, 12:05 PM
TC- I know this is a little off subject, but recently I had the privelidge to meet the Florida Marlins Asst. GM Michael Hill. I was just wondering what your thoughts were on him, I was thoroughly impress with him. Not that I don't like Krivsky, but I was sure hoping he would get a shot here. Hopefully Krivsky does a fine job and stays here for years to come, but I'll love to see Mr. Hill as a GM on some team. Thanks for commenting on my post earlier too, I appreciate the kind words.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 12:13 PM
TC- I know this is a little off subject, but recently I had the privelidge to meet the Florida Marlins Asst. GM Michael Hill. I was just wondering what your thoughts were on him, I was thoroughly impress with him. Not that I don't like Krivsky, but I was sure hoping he would get a shot here. Hopefully Krivsky does a fine job and stays here for years to come, but I'll love to see Mr. Hill as a GM on some team. Thanks for commenting on my post earlier too, I appreciate the kind words.

I have yet to hear anything bad about Michael Hill. I really do not know the guy that well but he is poised to get a shot at becoming a GM. Age may work against him in SOME circles but IMO if you are ready you are ready.

Crash Davis
07-15-2006, 12:13 PM
The reason folks don't like that line of thinking, TC, is that it's an inaccurate line of thinking.

Or: "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

It goes both ways, right?

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 12:16 PM
The result has been volatile below-average offense that spiraled into the abyss last season. If he was trying to jettison strikeouts for the sake of getting rid of strikeouts, that's a purely awful plan.

You got my point and I get yours. This is where the minds meet in baseball and good decisions get made. We both agree that you can not have 8 Rob Deer's in your lineup but the net result of what you do have in your lineup does allow for walks, strikeouts, etc... Hope I said that right.:laugh:

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 12:19 PM
Or: "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

It goes both ways, right?


That is another way of looking at it!! LOL! I came up with a theory a few days ago that went liek this: If you're team is going to strikeout, walk xxx amount of times. Is it better that 2 or 3 players make up 50-60% of that total? If it does you can adjust your lineup accordingly. If everyone in your lineup walked and struck out equally how would that work? Thsi si probably best for another thread but it is good discussion.

SteelSD
07-15-2006, 12:20 PM
Or: "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

It goes both ways, right?

You'll need to re-word it:

"I accept that which is true and reject that which is false."

That's how it really goes. Personal reality doesn't factor in when we use facts as our guide.

RFS62
07-15-2006, 12:22 PM
You'll need to re-word it:

"I accept that which is true and reject that which is false."

That's how it really goes. Personal reality doesn't factor in when we use facts as our guide.



Maybe you could reword it "I come to some conclusions that are totally based on statistical analysis, and I don't include any subjective analysis to enter into my decision making process, no matter who it comes from"

That's the way you come across Steel. You're a fantastic statistical analyist. But you consistantly ignore any subjective input, no matter the source.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 12:25 PM
Maybe you could reword it "I come to some conclusions that are totally based on statistical analysis, and I don't include any subjective analysis to enter into my decision making process, no matter who it comes from"

That's the way you come across Steel. You're a fantastic statistical analyist. But you consistantly ignore any subjective input, no matter the source.

The Godfather has spoken. I say it's now "Man Law".

Disclaimer:
(Ladies of baseball, not trying to offend...just using a Beer commercial as reference)

CougarQuest
07-15-2006, 12:25 PM
"I accept that which is true and reject that which is false."

That's how it really goes. Personal reality doesn't factor in when we use facts as our guide.
No he had it right. I've seen the TV show :laugh:

SteelSD
07-15-2006, 12:26 PM
You got my point and I get yours. This is where the minds meet in baseball and good decisions get made. We both agree that you can not have 8 Rob Deer's in your lineup but the net result of what you do have in your lineup does allow for walks, strikeouts, etc... Hope I said that right.:laugh:

lol. You're fine. And my real point isn't to debate the value of K's as we already know they have very little, if any, affect on Run Scoring for a team. What interested me about your comment was that if you're going to have a lineup of 8 Rob Deer's, the best way to negatively impact the lineup is to replace two Rob Deer's with two guys who strike out less but who still represent less value than the players they're replacing. Now I hope I said that right. :)

Crash Davis
07-15-2006, 12:27 PM
You'll need to re-word it:

"I accept that which is true and reject that which is false."

That's how it really goes. Personal reality doesn't factor in when we use facts as our guide.

"Facts" or "stats"?

You'll need to reword it.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 12:40 PM
lol. You're fine. And my real point isn't to debate the value of K's as we already know they have very little, if any, affect on Run Scoring for a team. What interested me about your comment was that if you're going to have a lineup of 8 Rob Deer's, the best way to negatively impact the lineup is to replace two Rob Deer's with two guys who strike out less but who still represent less value than the players they're replacing. Now I hope I said that right. :)

Billy Beane just had a rushing sensation come over him...:laugh:

SteelSD
07-15-2006, 12:43 PM
Maybe you could reword it "I come to some conclusions that are totally based on statistical analysis, and I don't include any subjective analysis to enter into my decision making process, no matter who it comes from"

That's the way you come across Steel. You're a fantastic statistical analyist. But you consistantly ignore any subjective input, no matter the source.

Yep. Could see that one coming a mile away. Been building for quite some time, hasn't it?

No reason to derail the thread though. I fully appreciate Team Clark's subjective take on potential reasons why Kearns and/or Lopez may have had less marketplace value than we anticipated. Just because you don't see me type words to that effect doesn't mean I don't consider poignant subjective reasoning when it's presented. It's read, processed, and given appropriate weight.

Of course, the key word is "poignant". That may be where your disconnect is because high-level subjective input is a little more rare than you seem to think around these parts; which is why I've always appreciated TC's contributions.

RFS62
07-15-2006, 12:49 PM
Yep. Could see that one coming a mile away. Been building for quite some time, hasn't it?


Only in as much as I've read your posts for a long time. Nothing building, no compelling need for you to be watching from a mile away. You made a statement and positioned it as fact. That's all.



No reason to derail the thread though. I fully appreciate Team Clark's subjective take on potential reasons why Kearns and/or Lopez may have had less marketplace value than we anticipated. Just because you don't see me type words to that effect doesn't mean I don't consider poignant subjective reasoning when it's presented. It's read, processed, and given appropriate weight.

Of course, the key word is "poignant". That may be where your disconnect is because high-level subjective input is a little more rare than you seem to think around these parts; which is why I've always appreciated TC's contributions.


No, I think it's sorely lacking. I wish we had tons more of it. It's the hardest kind of input of all to come by, actually. Especially the "high-level" variety you speak of.

It's what, when added to the kind of analysis you routinely do, which I've always said is excellent, finishes the picture.

You said "fact" Steel. Not me. It's excellent analysis, as usual, but not complete.

SteelSD
07-15-2006, 12:49 PM
Billy Beane just had a rushing sensation come over him...:laugh:

Hopefully the good kind, because the bad kind could indicate a heart attack.;)

Handofdeath
07-15-2006, 12:52 PM
Teamclark I'm really loving what you're saying on this board but one question. Sabremetrics are debated to death here on this board but how much do they really mean or how much are they really used in MLB?

BigRed75
07-15-2006, 12:59 PM
I donít want to talk specifics but I have heard rumors that Lopez has some extracurricular activities that may be hindering his performance. If true, Iím sure this could be another reason for him to be traded. Personally, I think we had another Pokey Reese on our handsÖone good year and done.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 01:00 PM
Teamclark I'm really loving what you're saying on this board but one question. Sabremetrics are debated to death here on this board but how much do they really mean or how much are they really used in MLB?

I really do not know to what extent they are used with every team. I do know that a lot of teams employ statisticians to do extensive analysis on players. I would find it hard to believe that any GM makes decisons based wholly on stats. I use stats as a gauge of what is going on NOW with a player.

SteelSD
07-15-2006, 01:01 PM
You said "fact" Steel. Not me. It's excellent analysis, as usual, but not complete.

Which part isn't complete?

And when I said "fact", the item I was referencing was that K rate has very little to nothing to do with offensive performance. The door's been slammed shut on that one for quite some time now. We know that to be true. It's a fact.

But what interested me about TC's response to the idea that K rate might be a trade motivator is that I hadn't actually considered that possibility and I should have considering the situational dynamic. While I may disagree that such a motivator is rational, it made me consider an additional item as to why Krivsky might have further devalued his own players.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 01:03 PM
I donít want to talk specifics but I have heard rumors that Lopez has some extracurricular activities that may be hindering his performance. If true, Iím sure this could be another reason for him to be traded. Personally, I think we had another Pokey Reese on our handsÖone good year and done.

I have yet to hear anyting like that going on. I do not hear EVERYTHING that goes on in every clubhouse either. Not saying it is not true but if it were that's a shame.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 01:04 PM
Which part isn't complete?

And when I said "fact", the item I was referencing was that K rate has very little to nothing to do with offensive performance. The door's been slammed shut on that one for quite some time now. We know that to be true. It's a fact.

But what interested me about TC's response to the idea that K rate might be a trade motivator is that I hadn't actually considered that possibility and I should have considering the situational dynamic. While I may disagree that such a motivator is rational, it made me consider an additional item as to why Krivsky might have further devalued his own players.

Actually you are giving me credit for Linedriver's thoughts. I just commented on them. I agree that it may have come into the equation.

ChatterRed
07-15-2006, 01:05 PM
I watched Baseball Tonight and saw Lopez and Kearns futility and had to laugh at Bowden. Jim Bowden was one of the biggest buffoons I can ever remember when it came to trades and player personnel. He is too close to the players and has pets. "His guys" that he trades for or drafts have a very long leash because he wants them to make him look good.........and he falls in love with position players but has little regard for pitching. I was not suprised he traded away the Nationals best pitching prospects. He did it all the time with the Reds. Then he acts like he got the best of the Reds............but anyone who knows Bowden, knows he is a joke.........and Krivsky has proven by making extraordinary moves consistently that he is no joke. My sources told me that this deal had been on the table for 2 months and the Reds had been scouting these pitching prospects the whole time to ensure them they were getting quality pitchers first hand and not taking some media hype seriously.

The Reds did their homework and Bowden got back "his guys".

I was at the game last night along with rewatching Dunn's home run on Baseball Tonight and it looked effortless to the point that he didn't appear to hit it that hard. Amazing.

Gainesville Red
07-15-2006, 01:11 PM
I watched Baseball Tonight and saw Lopez and Kearns futility and had to laugh at Bowden. Jim Bowden was one of the biggest buffoons I can ever remember when it came to trades and player personnel. He is too close to the players and has pets. "His guys" that he trades for or drafts have a very long leash because he wants them to make him look good.........and he falls in love with position players but has little regard for pitching. I was not suprised he traded away the Nationals best pitching prospects. He did it all the time with the Reds. Then he acts like he got the best of the Reds............but anyone who knows Bowden, knows he is a joke.........and Krivsky has proven by making extraordinary moves consistently that he is no joke. My sources told me that this deal had been on the table for 2 months and the Reds had been scouting these pitching prospects the whole time to ensure them they were getting quality pitchers first hand and not taking some media hype seriously.

The Reds did their homework and Bowden got back "his guys".

I was at the game last night along with rewatching Dunn's home run on Baseball Tonight and it looked effortless to the point that he didn't appear to hit it that hard. Amazing.


The guys we used last night that we got from them weren't exactly flawless.

I take no pleasure in watching Kearns and Lopez struggle, and it was just one game. Things are probably weird playing for the new team the first time. Give everything some time.

Who are your "sources?"

Steve4192
07-15-2006, 01:17 PM
And when I said "fact", the item I was referencing was that K rate has very little to nothing to do with offensive performance. The door's been slammed shut on that one for quite some time now. We know that to be true. It's a fact.

I am firmly in the 'strikeouts are just another out' camp, but I would hardly say the door has been slammed completely shut on that topic.

While it has been proven that strikeouts have very little impact on runs scored in the aggregate, nothing has ever been proven about their impact on a situational basis. Over the course of an entire year, a team full of Dunns, Deers, Thomes, Nicholsons, Kingmans, and Ruths are going to score a boatload of runs ... K's be damned. However, in a tie ballgame with two out and a runner on second in the bottom of the ninth, you can bet your bottom dollar that I'd rather have a team full of Gwynns, Cobbs, DiMaggios, and Traynors.

The reason I don't worry about whiffs too much is because you have to construct a team to win on the macro level, and on that level K's don't mean a whole lot. However, in individual run-scoring situations at the micro level, K's can have a very big impact on offensive performance.

acredsfan
07-15-2006, 01:19 PM
I've always thought about how it would be an awsome job to be going around watching the game you loved and getting paid to do it. Then it hit me how much hard work would be involved and how hard it would be to make it. Obviously you have done a great job to still be doing this and I admire the hard work it must have taken and it still takes. I think it would be awsome to see you do something like what Marc Lancaster where he outlined a day on his job as he was doing it. Even though it is tough, it has to be enjoyable to be where you are.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 01:22 PM
I've always thought about how it would be an awsome job to be going around watching the game you loved and getting paid to do it. Then it hit me how much hard work would be involved and how hard it would be to make it. Obviously you have done a great job to still be doing this and I admire the hard work it must have taken and it still takes. I think it would be awsome to see you do something like what Marc Lancaster where he outlined a day on his job as he was doing it. Even though it is tough, it has to be enjoyable to be where you are.

The problem would be that so much of what I do is based on what I see and interpret immediately. I fear that a great deal would be lost in the interpretation.

SteelSD
07-15-2006, 01:23 PM
Actually you are giving me credit for Linedriver's thoughts. I just commented on them. I agree that it may have come into the equation.

Actually I didn't consider that to be a potential motivator until you commented on it. I'd glossed over it, but because you're working for a MLB team right now, your response made me remember that MLB teams can still think that way (i.e. K's bad- get rid of them at all costs). I'm not saying you think that way necessarily. Just that it was an item of interest.

And thanks for the comments. Much appreciated.

Crash Davis
07-15-2006, 01:28 PM
And when I said "fact", the item I was referencing was that K rate has very little to nothing to do with offensive performance. The door's been slammed shut on that one for quite some time now. We know that to be true. It's a fact.

Where fundamentalism meets baseball analysis.

"By the bowels of Christ, bethink ye that ye may be mistaken."

SteelSD
07-15-2006, 01:43 PM
Where fundamentalism meets baseball analysis.

"By the bowels of Christ, bethink ye that ye may be mistaken."

Then, by all means, produce an actual counterpoint. I welcome it.

I'll kill it. But I'll appreciate the effort. :thumbup:

Crash Davis
07-15-2006, 01:50 PM
Then, by all means, produce an actual counterpoint. I welcome it.

I'll kill it. But I'll appreciate the effort. :thumbup:

Again?

I thought this was another subject where we agreed to disagree. . .or at least I agreed to disagree.

buckeyenut
07-15-2006, 02:14 PM
Yep. Could see that one coming a mile away. Been building for quite some time, hasn't it?

No reason to derail the thread though. I fully appreciate Team Clark's subjective take on potential reasons why Kearns and/or Lopez may have had less marketplace value than we anticipated. Just because you don't see me type words to that effect doesn't mean I don't consider poignant subjective reasoning when it's presented. It's read, processed, and given appropriate weight.

Of course, the key word is "poignant". That may be where your disconnect is because high-level subjective input is a little more rare than you seem to think around these parts; which is why I've always appreciated TC's contributions.

While I strongly lean towards the stats side of the argument, the one piece in this deal that the stats cannot address is the fact that there is a very realistic thought that by dealing Kearns, Adam Dunn will get better and work harder. There is no way for the pure stats to account for that.

Could they have gotten a bigger return? Maybe. But if the feeling really was that you needed to split the two of them up now or else both go downhill, then you take the best deal you can find to meet your needs and you move on. Dunn's upside is among the best players in the history of the game. You HAVE to do everything possible to help him reach that.

LINEDRIVER
07-15-2006, 03:03 PM
Actually you are giving me credit for Linedriver's thoughts. I just commented on them. I agree that it may have come into the equation.

Perhaps I should clarify that I dont mean to say that Kriv ONLY traded Kearns in an effort to dump a bunch of K's out of the lineup. I just see it as a possible contributing factor. Just an opinion.

Reds batters are 4th in MLB in strikeouts. Brewers are 1st, Marlins 2nd, Braves 3rd. I can almost excuse the Marlins who are playing a bunch of kids.

Ga_Red
07-15-2006, 03:05 PM
02/08/07

RedsBaron
07-15-2006, 03:23 PM
I have nothing to add but this: This has been one excellent thread, one I've enjoyed very much. Thanks TC.:thumbup:

MartyFan
07-15-2006, 03:35 PM
I'd like to know something.

When Larkin and Junior were in the clubhouse together there were reports that they were holding back...maybe they were dancing to the beat of their own drum or whatever...is this similar to what Kearns and Dunn were doing?

Who is Dunn currently working with to become a pro....I would love to know who sat Dunn down and had the "come to Jesus" talk with him.

Topcat
07-15-2006, 03:38 PM
TC as per usual thank you for what you contribute to this board and allowing us fans to have a inside look, at what few of us ever get a chance to know.

acredsfan
07-15-2006, 03:48 PM
You know, we can sit here and argue all day about the reasons for the trade and what Krivsky was trying to achieve, but the simple fact of it all was we needed bullpen help pronto. Did he over pay? In they eyes of most Reds fans the answer would be yes. In my opinion, no he didn't. The reality is there is no perfect trade in this game, to get what you need you have to part with some players that you don't want to. Looking at the other side of the deal, Bowden gave up a good chunk of his bullpen in this trade. We gave up what we have as surplus of, end of story, we can still score plenty of runs.

With people on base I always cringed to see either Kearns or Lopez up, they seemed to either whiff or fail to move the runners over. I don't know if it's just me, but I felt that Kearn's swing has gotten more and more prone to produce ground balls. He did not have a smooth swing at all. People were using his thumb as an excuse of why he couldn't get behind a ball, but I firmly believe his swing is his biggest enemy. I say that when he's the professional player and I'm a nobody sitting at my computer typing what I've observed, but hey the truth hurts.

I was also less than impressed with Kearn's range and speed in the OF. Yeah, he occasionally got a good jump on a ball and when he had the ball sized up he rarely missed, but Denorfia's play last night showed why Griffey was getting blamed for his lack of range and a lot of doubles reaching the gaps. Its simple, put better range in the corner outfield positions and Griffey doesn't get the blame.

I also have to agree that cutting down on about 1/3 of the strikeouts by this lineup is huge. For all the talk of Kearns having a good eye, he couldn't hit anything under his hands and it seemed like he got fixed on proving he could and then became vulnerable to the breaking ball low and away.

I just have to believe that Krivsky was less than impressed with Kearns and Lopez and traded them at just the right time. Not that I wish bad luck on either one of them, but sometimes players just don't fulfil their potential.

Just random thoughts...

Phil in BG
07-15-2006, 03:48 PM
a priori

1) Proposition:
in the kearns/felo trade, WK got above market
value for the players traded. Why?

2) Wk shopped the market, and traded all three
to JB.

3) the market value was what the others offered.

4) No one would pay more than JB for his 3 best Reds players drafted.

4) Q.E.D


Very good point. The market value is what you get. A product is only worth what someone is willing to pay.

Doc. Scott
07-15-2006, 03:59 PM
TC, is there any indication that the Reds considered just flip-flopping Lopez' and Phillips' defensive positions? Obviously Felipe's main defensive asset, his arm strength, would be largely negated at second base, but perhaps his range and positioning issues might be helped by that. Any thoughts?

I personally would have been much happier trading just Kearns or just Kearns and Wagner for either Bray or Majewski and Thompson. This deal's quality to the Reds suffered as it grew in size.

gm
07-15-2006, 04:29 PM
Denorfia's play last night showed why Griffey was getting blamed for his lack of range and a lot of doubles reaching the gaps. Its simple, put better range in the corner outfield positions and Griffey doesn't get the blame

I was thinking to myself last night "Wise, Griffey and Deno is the best late inning defensive OF the Reds have put on the field since '99..." (Hammonds, Cameron, Tucker)

SteelSD
07-15-2006, 04:43 PM
While I strongly lean towards the stats side of the argument, the one piece in this deal that the stats cannot address is the fact that there is a very realistic thought that by dealing Kearns, Adam Dunn will get better and work harder. There is no way for the pure stats to account for that.

Could they have gotten a bigger return? Maybe. But if the feeling really was that you needed to split the two of them up now or else both go downhill, then you take the best deal you can find to meet your needs and you move on. Dunn's upside is among the best players in the history of the game. You HAVE to do everything possible to help him reach that.

Why wouldn't that happen with Kearns around? Hey, Encarnacion considered Lopez to be a positive influence (there's a thread on ORG about it). Maybe Encarnacion will flounder without Felipe around. We can talk about that all day long but the reality is that no one on this board has spent each day in the clubhouse with the Reds this season.

Sure, we can consider potential effects like that but exactly how realistic are those considerations? Was Kearns really holding Dunn back? Is Dunn really going to become a 1.000 OPS monster because Kearns is gone? Or would he have done it anyway? Regardless, is that really a good reason to trade Kearns for less than his current and projected value? If so, wouldn't the same considerations demand distain for dealing away a guy like Lopez; who Encarnacion stated was good for him?

Or is all this "chairgate" in a different form?

All good questions to ask.

I do find it interesting that we haven't actually heard from Dunn yet, BTW.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 05:23 PM
TC, is there any indication that the Reds considered just flip-flopping Lopez' and Phillips' defensive positions? Obviously Felipe's main defensive asset, his arm strength, would be largely negated at second base, but perhaps his range and positioning issues might be helped by that. Any thoughts?

I do not know the direct answer to the flip-flop question. My opinion is that the move would have failed. Phillips would have been fine but FeLo would not. FeLo is just not from the mold of being an INFIELDER. He's a shortstop only. Barry Larkin fit that mold. It's not as simple as just moving someone over there. It sounds easy but it really isn't. Phillips, like Castro can play ANY IF position without any trouble. Pokey Reese too. Natural footwork, perfect adjustments fielding the ball at any depth, great arm, and most important Field Awareness. FeLo does not have all of those abilities.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 05:25 PM
I was thinking to myself last night "Wise, Griffey and Deno is the best late inning defensive OF the Reds have put on the field since '99..." (Hammonds, Cameron, Tucker)

I spoke about this in ST and throughout April. Dino has TREMENDOUS closing speed. I heard about a ball hit into RC in the late innings that he caught last night. Kearns just doesn't make that catch. Dino makes all of those catches. Just like a really good LH 1B makes it easier for a 2B, Dino will make it easier on Jr in CF.

Spitball
07-15-2006, 05:26 PM
I do find it interesting that we haven't actually heard from Dunn yet, BTW.

I am guessing he will be a "company man" and not express his personal feelings.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 05:28 PM
I am guessing he will be a "company man" and not express his personal feelings.

IF he speaks, and I really do not think he will, it will be with very few words. He's not playing for Miley anymore and he doesn't run this clubhouse. This is Narron's club and Narron's rules.

redsmetz
07-15-2006, 05:47 PM
I spoke about this in ST and throughout April. Dino has TREMENDOUS closing speed. I heard about a ball hit into RC in the late innings that he caught last night. Kearns just doesn't make that catch. Dino makes all of those catches. Just like a really good LH 1B makes it easier for a 2B, Dino will make it easier on Jr in CF.

It was sort of fitting that he got to tie that fabled major league record held by thousands - most putouts in one inning. He looked good out there from where I was sitting (1st base line towards the OF).

princeton
07-15-2006, 08:35 PM
I do not know the direct answer to the flip-flop question. My opinion is that the move would have failed. Phillips would have been fine but FeLo would not. FeLo is just not from the mold of being an INFIELDER. He's a shortstop only. Barry Larkin fit that mold. It's not as simple as just moving someone over there. It sound seasy but it really isn't. Phillips, like Castro can play ANY IF position without any trouble. Pokey Reese too. Natural footwork, perfect adjustments fielding the ball at any depth, great arm, and most important Field Awareness. FeLo does not have all of those abilities.


he plays a good third, but I always figured that his best position for Cincy was CF

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 09:10 PM
he plays a good third, but I always figured that his best position for Cincy was CF

Possibly. Reggie Sanders, Eric Davis and about 1,000 other OF's were SS's in the minors before converting.

Wyatt Earp
07-15-2006, 09:24 PM
There was a meeting and a lengthy "one way" conversation. I do not have all the details and I probably will never get them. I do know that since that day Adam is a changed man. Must have been intense.
Who was the meeting given by?

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 09:34 PM
Who was the meeting given by?

My understanding is that it was at least Narron and Dunn. I heard the story two other times from people within the organization that Krivsky was involved but I am not sure if he was there for the beginning, middle, end or for the whole episode... I just do not know. All I know is that it happened and Adam was shell shocked by it. Adam gave me bits and pieces at his camp a few weeks ago. I do not have minute by minute details and I'm not going to ask Adam for any.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 09:35 PM
I am guessing he will be a "company man" and not express his personal feelings.

BTW I am a big Warren Zevon fan. Someone else's song is one of my faves!!

Got to roll. Hoping to see Gwynn Jr. get his first knock tonight. Brandon Webb is available in case anyone is interested.

Royals Fan
07-15-2006, 09:58 PM
Team Clark

Did you see the rumor from the San Diego paper about Kearns for Linerbrink- the market is very steep for any types of pitching both Starters or Middle guys. Along with your infomation has made me feel at ease with this trade as days go by. Thanks for all your information.

KoryMac5
07-15-2006, 11:13 PM
Would love to have Brandon Webb. The price for him would be through the roof if middle relief is fetching this much.

RedEye
07-15-2006, 11:22 PM
Brandon Webb is available in case anyone is interested.

Webb is available as in "on the block" or available as in "pitching tonight on TV"?

I'm assuming it's the latter, but if it is the former I'm even more upset that we traded AK and FeLo. AK and FeLo for Webb and some prospect is a deal I would actually be happy with!

Just sayin' is all.

Clemson
07-15-2006, 11:23 PM
TC
Is Webb really available? Are they seeing soemthing I'm not?

BrooklynRedz
07-15-2006, 11:38 PM
TC
Is Webb really available? Are they seeing soemthing I'm not?

Yeah, incredible debt.

MWM
07-15-2006, 11:45 PM
Well, if Webb is available, then it's ONLY because they're trying to get rid of the pending big payday because they can't afford it. And if that's the case, Kearns or Lopez wouldn't have even been in the discussion, so the trade wouldn't have made a difference.

However, I bet Homer Bailey exactly what they would be looking for. I wonder if he and another middling prospect would be enough. I love what Homer's done recently, but if I could flip him for a Brandon Webb, I wouldn't think twice.

If he's truly available, my guess is the Yanks will give up Hughes and just about anyone else to get him as they're desparate for pitching help this year. And they'd also include pile o' cash in the deal as well, which would be enticing for the debt ridden D'backs.

Mario-Rijo
07-15-2006, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by TeamClark I do not know the direct answer to the flip-flop question. My opinion is that the move would have failed. Phillips would have been fine but FeLo would not. FeLo is just not from the mold of being an INFIELDER. He's a shortstop only. Barry Larkin fit that mold. It's not as simple as just moving someone over there. It sounds easy but it really isn't. Phillips, like Castro can play ANY IF position without any trouble. Pokey Reese too. Natural footwork, perfect adjustments fielding the ball at any depth, great arm, and most important Field Awareness. FeLo does not have all of those abilities.

I get this, mainly because it also applies too me. Granted not at that level, however I am a big guy and many are surprised by my athleticism. Really it's simple, some people (or should I say muscle groups) just get it and some don't. It's like dancing (which, again I am good at :D ) footwork is everything and it's difficult to teach w/o tons of hours and hours of....yes dancing. I danced alot as a kid because my mother was always dancing and I seemed to have gotten good footwork and foot-eye co-ordination if you will. I play 1st base nowadays because of my size but I have played at various other positions and I can play anywhere on the infield because of it (although my range hasn't always been splendid to say the least). However I am one of the worst OF's I know because I at times have a tough time adjusting to flyballs. Basically reading the depth and trajectory.

So I guess it all evens out!

Jpup
07-15-2006, 11:47 PM
Well, if Webb is available, then it's ONLY because they're trying to get rid of the pending big payday because they can't afford it. And if that's the case, Kearns or Lopez wouldn't have even been in the discussion, so the trade wouldn't have made a difference.

However, I bet Homer Bailey exactly what they would be looking for. I wonder if he and another middling prospect would be enough. I love what Homer's done recently, but if I could flip him for a Brandon Webb, I wouldn't think twice.

If he's truly available, my guess is the Yanks will give up Hughes and just about anyone else to get him as they're desparate for pitching help this year. And they'd also include pile o' cash in the deal as well, which would be enticing for the debt ridden D'backs.

Homer and and any other prospect not named Bruce or Votto would be good with me.

The DBacks are only 4 back, I can't see them trading him yet.

MWM
07-15-2006, 11:49 PM
Hell, I'd trade Homer AND Votto for Webb.

Jpup
07-15-2006, 11:51 PM
Hell, I'd trade Homer AND Votto for Webb.

I agree that I would have to probably do it too. I fixed the quote for you too.

The D backs are only 4 back so they probably aren't going to trade him yet.

MWM
07-15-2006, 11:53 PM
I fixed the quote for you too.


LMAO. :laugh:

I fixed it, too.

Crash Davis
07-16-2006, 01:11 AM
BTW I am a big Warren Zevon fan. Someone else's song is one of my faves!!

I just saw Spitball's signature too. "He'll rip your lungs out, Jim!"

Love Warren Zevon. "I went home with a waitress, the way I always do...how was I to know, she was with the Russians too?"

Chip R
07-16-2006, 01:20 AM
Thanks for the info, TC. Just from reading this and other articles about people who have tinkered with Dunn's hitting, it seems to me that Adam is a very - for lack of a better word - malleable individual. Someone tells Adam to hit for more power and stop using all fields and he says, "OK, Coach," and he does just that. Then he is told to go after pitches that are outside the strike zone and he says, "OK, Coach," and he does it. Now we hear he had a Come to Jesus meeting with Narron and lo and behold he seems to be hitting the other way more often. I don't want to seem like I am criticizing him since the world needs followers too but I hope, as he matures, he learns to filter out the good influences from the bad ones. Perhaps working out with Jr. now will influence him positively.

I also want to give kudos to everyone who has participated in this thread. RedsZoners, take note. This thread is the model on how to have a discussion. Yes, there were disagreements but the differing viewpoints were treated with respect. This is how you can disagree without being disagreeable.

Blue
07-16-2006, 01:54 AM
I spoke about this in ST and throughout April. Dino has TREMENDOUS closing speed. I heard about a ball hit into RC in the late innings that he caught last night. Kearns just doesn't make that catch. Dino makes all of those catches. Just like a really good LH 1B makes it easier for a 2B, Dino will make it easier on Jr in CF.

I was sitting in the right field seats, he was given a nice, halfstanding ovation for that one.

This might be the best thread I have ever read on any Reds blog. Great stuff.

Blue
07-16-2006, 02:39 AM
Team Clark, if you're still answering questions, can you answer this one: Do you know if the Reds have given any serious consideration to trading Homer Bailey?

Team Clark
07-16-2006, 02:48 AM
Team Clark, if you're still answering questions, can you answer this one: Do you know if the Reds have given any serious consideration to trading Homer Bailey?

I wish I knew. If they are I need to get Mr. Hunsicker to dangle ANYTHING we have. :laugh:

Brandon Webb is available from the D-Backs but they want an equal starter and a LH reliever in return PLUS a AA prospect. (Kenny Wlliams will get him) Even though they are at or around .500 I think the D-Backs realize they are too young to make the playoffs. Might as well shore up for next year with Webb as bait.

Here is a trade I would make if I were the Reds. Please read nothing into this as I am making this up. JR, Votto, Claussen, Belisle and Shackelford for Webb and Byrnes. You make this deal you can seal up the Wild card and possibly get the Division. My opinion. This would also be the reason I am not a GM and why trades off the top of my head are wonders of mercy. :laugh:

Team Clark
07-16-2006, 02:50 AM
Thanks for the info, TC. Just from reading this and other articles about people who have tinkered with Dunn's hitting, it seems to me that Adam is a very - for lack of a better word - malleable individual. Someone tells Adam to hit for more power and stop using all fields and he says, "OK, Coach," and he does just that. Then he is told to go after pitches that are outside the strike zone and he says, "OK, Coach," and he does it. Now we hear he had a Come to Jesus meeting with Narron and lo and behold he seems to be hitting the other way more often. I don't want to seem like I am criticizing him since the world needs followers too but I hope, as he matures, he learns to filter out the good influences from the bad ones. Perhaps working out with Jr. now will influence him positively.

I also want to give kudos to everyone who has participated in this thread. RedsZoners, take note. This thread is the model on how to have a discussion. Yes, there were disagreements but the differing viewpoints were treated with respect. This is how you can disagree without being disagreeable.

Thanks Chip. This has been a really fun post/thread. I think we have covered all of the bases. You are right about the disagreements. I tell people, especially on this board, that the very foundation of Baseball is disagreement. If we all like the same team and the same players how could the game possibly be any fun? How cool would I thave been to argue over Mantle, Snider or Mays at school everyday? (and actually get into a dust up over it?)

Blue
07-16-2006, 03:17 AM
Yeah, okay. I've enjoyed reading this thread, but TC, that was a frighteningly fast response and I'm going to have trouble going to sleep tonight.

;) thanks

Jpup
07-16-2006, 03:47 AM
I wish I knew. If they are I need to get Mr. Hunsicker to dangle ANYTHING we have. :laugh:

Brandon Webb is available from the D-Backs but they want an equal starter and a LH reliever in return PLUS a AA prospect. (Kenny Wlliams will get him) Even though they are at or around .500 I think the D-Backs realize they are too young to make the playoffs. Might as well shore up for next year with Webb as bait.

Here is a trade I would make if I were the Reds. Please read nothing into this as I am making this up. JR, Votto, Claussen, Belisle and Shackelford for Webb and Byrnes. You make this deal you can seal up the Wild card and possibly get the Division. My opinion. This would also be the reason I am not a GM and why trades off the top of my head are wonders of mercy. :laugh:

If Arizona is stupid enough to do that deal, I'll eat my hat. They would be giving away Webb at that price. As far as "Kenny Williams will get him". The Sox don't have an equal starter to Brandon Webb. There may only be a couple of teams that do. The White Sox don't have a reliever to give up either. They may get him in the offseason, but I can't see it happening before then. As Krivsky says, "it has to make sense." Well, that doesn't make sense to me. :)

Bob Borkowski
07-16-2006, 08:32 AM
How cool would I thave been to argue over Mantle, Snider or Mays at school everyday? (and actually get into a dust up over it?)


Or even Gus Bell! ;)

BrooklynRedz
07-16-2006, 10:30 AM
I wish I knew. If they are I need to get Mr. Hunsicker to dangle ANYTHING we have. :laugh:

Brandon Webb is available from the D-Backs but they want an equal starter and a LH reliever in return PLUS a AA prospect. (Kenny Wlliams will get him) Even though they are at or around .500 I think the D-Backs realize they are too young to make the playoffs. Might as well shore up for next year with Webb as bait.

Here is a trade I would make if I were the Reds. Please read nothing into this as I am making this up. JR, Votto, Claussen, Belisle and Shackelford for Webb and Byrnes. You make this deal you can seal up the Wild card and possibly get the Division. My opinion. This would also be the reason I am not a GM and why trades off the top of my head are wonders of mercy. :laugh:

TC, you really think ARI would take JR?

Team Clark
07-16-2006, 11:03 AM
TC, you really think ARI would take JR?

I'd say no. Since I was just making the trade up and acting like some of the caller's on Sportstalk I seriously doubt they would take him. :laugh: JR, finally has a decent team to play on. I would find it hard to believe he would jump ship now.

CougarQuest
07-16-2006, 05:23 PM
Wondering what other teams have feelers out. Seems like a LOT of teams are waiting to see how the next 10 days or so play out. Any doubts the Reds still have feelers out?

BTW TC, you still have any affiliation with that pub?

RedEye
07-16-2006, 05:32 PM
Brandon Webb is available from the D-Backs but they want an equal starter and a LH reliever in return PLUS a AA prospect. (Kenny Wlliams will get him) Even though they are at or around .500 I think the D-Backs realize they are too young to make the playoffs. Might as well shore up for next year with Webb as bait.


So... basically what that means is that Webb is 'available' like any other player is 'available': if another team wants to give up the moon, the Diamondbacks are game. If the Reds had a pitcher of equal value to Webb, I'm not sure why they'd trade him for Webb + prospects. Isn't that like trading a starter and prospects for the same starter?

Ravenlord
07-16-2006, 05:45 PM
So... basically what that means is that Webb is 'available' like any other player is 'available': if another team wants to give up the moon, the Diamondbacks are game. If the Reds had a pitcher of equal value to Webb, I'm not sure why they'd trade him for Webb + prospects. Isn't that like trading a starter and prospects for the same starter?
i think it's more like if the White Sox came knocking and offered Garcia, Thompson, and midling prospect. a 200+ IP starter who at minimum has had success.

Dunner44
07-16-2006, 08:20 PM
Wow, I'm sorry I've been avoiding this thread like the plauge before (I assumed it was just another rant against the trade) and it took me near a half-hour to get up to speed, but thanks for the info TC.

Team Clark
07-16-2006, 08:43 PM
Wow, I'm sorry I've been avoiding this thread like the plauge before (I assumed it was just another rant against the trade) and it took me near a half-hour to get up to speed, but thanks for the info TC.


Ahhh Hah!!! We sucked you in. Now it's time to rant!! JK!

Team Clark
07-16-2006, 08:45 PM
Wondering what other teams have feelers out. Seems like a LOT of teams are waiting to see how the next 10 days or so play out. Any doubts the Reds still have feelers out?

BTW TC, you still have any affiliation with that pub?

No, the pub no longer exists. I have had some conversations with Johanna Wagner about content and writing. Great author and writer. Pretty sharp lady too. lovemyteam.com is where she makes her home. BTW the Reds have treated her very poorly. :thumbdown

Team Clark
07-16-2006, 08:47 PM
So... basically what that means is that Webb is 'available' like any other player is 'available': if another team wants to give up the moon, the Diamondbacks are game. If the Reds had a pitcher of equal value to Webb, I'm not sure why they'd trade him for Webb + prospects. Isn't that like trading a starter and prospects for the same starter?

No, I believe he is being shopped. Maybe I didn't frame the right words into the right context. I know that at least 20 of us saw him throw last night.

Team Clark
07-16-2006, 08:54 PM
Or even Gus Bell! ;)

When I was at Moeller in the early 90's I was teammates with soon to be Big Leaguers Steve Larkin, David and Mike Bell and Adam Hyzdu. What was really cool as a teenager was to see Buddy and/or GUS Bell come in and talk about hitting, fielding or whatever. Gus was a really cool dude. I know that when he passed it took a lot of wind out of the family sail. I remember looking up Gus's statistics and being shocked how I really had never heard of him until I got to Moeller. Hitting .295+ with 25+ HR and 100 RBI when that really meant something.

corkedbat
07-16-2006, 08:56 PM
I would love to bring in Webb, but don't see anyway to do it, short of dealing Homer. Doesn't mean I wouldn't do it - I would and then tie Webb up for 3-4 more years - but I just love the thought of finally seeing a home-grown A-type arm in the Reds rotation.

Webb, and his abilitiy to keep the ball on the ground, would be a perfect pitcher to build a staff around . He, Aaron and Bronson would give the Reds a top three equal to most staffs in the game.

I'd love to see a 5-man rotation starting with

Webb
Harang
Arroyo
Bailey

but Krivs would have to be a wizard to make it happen.

Reds Nd2
07-16-2006, 09:01 PM
TCII, can you give us any insight into Gomes shoulder problems? Is it affecting his swing any at all? Any chance he'll have surgery before the end of the season?

Team Clark
07-16-2006, 09:08 PM
TCII, can you give us any insight into Gomes shoulder problems? Is it affecting his swing any at all? Any chance he'll have surgery before the end of the season?

Last I heard he was still in considerable pain. Gomes is a pretty thick guy. Good thing too because his shoulders are strong and developed. If he were smaller he'd be out. If he gets to a point where they say he'll do more damage I'm sure we'll shut him down. I don't get an injury report. I only get the info I ask for.

Reds Nd2
07-16-2006, 09:12 PM
Last I heard he was still in considerable pain. Gomes is a pretty thick guy. Good thing too because his shoulders are strong and developed. If he were smaller he'd be out. If he gets to a point where they say he'll do more damage I'm sure we'll shut him down. I don't get an injury report. I only get the info I ask for.

Thanks TCII. It's not everyday you get the chance to ask someone from the organization about a player on your fantasy team. :laugh:

Shaknb8k
07-16-2006, 09:15 PM
How is Homer Bailey viewed outside of the reds organization? It seems that we over value our players so i was just wondering how he is viewed from an "outsider"?

Mario-Rijo
07-16-2006, 09:43 PM
I know this sounds a bit foolish from a few standpoints, and probably wouldn't happen for a few reasons however hear me out.

An equal starter to Webb, Harang would be right close to equal and Arroyo might also be considered "close". I think Harang is closer of course but I would rather deal an Arroyo than Harang.

Arroyo + Shackelford + Votto = Webb? I'm sure if we offered Harang it would be a done deal. Don't get me wrong I am happy with Bronson and I am more than ok with him staying. But I cannot help but too think that Webb is the prototypical pitcher for this park, he's a local kid from Kentucky (to replace the one that's now gone) and would be a perfect match for the FO's way of thinking. Arroyo is cost-effective for the following 2 years for Zona which would be a draw. If they would do this deal I would do it no question.

It may seem like I am getting greedy asking for Webb when we already have Bronson (and frankly with his playoff experience we may not do it, how foolish if it were offered) but I am always thinking of getting better and this would do it.

KySteveH
07-16-2006, 09:46 PM
I spoke about this in ST and throughout April. Dino has TREMENDOUS closing speed. I heard about a ball hit into RC in the late innings that he caught last night. Kearns just doesn't make that catch. Dino makes all of those catches. Just like a really good LH 1B makes it easier for a 2B, Dino will make it easier on Jr in CF.
Watched him the past two years in Louisville, and he was impressive in the field. You would see guys running toward second just shaking their heads and tossing helmets with some of the catches he'd make in the alleys. Deno also has a knack for really extending himself to make a tough catch without leaving his feet.

Team Clark
07-16-2006, 09:52 PM
How is Homer Bailey viewed outside of the reds organization? It seems that we over value our players so i was just wondering how he is viewed from an "outsider"?

That is a great question. Homer is the real deal. They just can not rush him. He needs minor league innings.

Here are my comments I posted earlier this year after seeing Bailey and co.

Bailey was lighting up the radar gun. He had trouble putting guys away. Mourneau had a tremendous AB against Bailey and ripped the hardest ball of the night off of him. The Reds defense didn't do anything to help Bailey out. In any case you can see that he is probably 150 innings away. A little better command of the fastball to set up his off speed and he will be set.

I remember that Bailey was really pounding that FB in there but they were really pounding it back. He just did not have another "quality" pitch to throw. He has one now and needs time to refine it. Keep in mind Standridge and Yan have the same type of FB. Look where it got them.


Check out my comments on Kearns. Nothing really changed...
Kearns. Opposite of Dunn. Kearns uppercut has become alarmingly worse. To the point where the Twins just pounded him with fastballs under the hands. Nothing Austin could do. The Giants scout that was sitting next to me was questioning why was he even out there? Tonight's AB's really were not helping. Something has gone awry. It's rare to see guys get progressively worse like that. Then again, sometimes all it takes is one swing and your back on track. I hope he comes around. His arm looked good from the OF. He threw two balls pretty well. He looks pretty healthy and you could see how happy he was as compared to previous ST camps. A week of one on one with Chambliss or Foster will get him raking again.

buckeyenut
07-16-2006, 09:59 PM
I know this sounds a bit foolish from a few standpoints, and probably wouldn't happen for a few reasons however hear me out.

An equal starter to Webb, Harang would be right close to equal and Arroyo might also be considered "close". I think Harang is closer of course but I would rather deal an Arroyo than Harang.

Arroyo + Shackelford + Votto = Webb? I'm sure if we offered Harang it would be a done deal. Don't get me wrong I am happy with Bronson and I am more than ok with him staying. But I cannot help but too think that Webb is the prototypical pitcher for this park, he's a local kid from Kentucky (to replace the one that's now gone) and would be a perfect match for the FO's way of thinking. Arroyo is cost-effective for the following 2 years for Zona which would be a draw. If they would do this deal I would do it no question.

It may seem like I am getting greedy asking for Webb when we already have Bronson (and frankly with his playoff experience we may not do it, how foolish if it were offered) but I am always thinking of getting better and this would do it.

If I am dealing for Webb, I want to add him to Harang and Arroyo, not deal one of those two. The three of those guys is a playoff rotation.

Claussen or Ramirez, Coffey and Bruce for Webb maybe? Throw in another B spec to sweeten the deal?

Willy
07-16-2006, 11:20 PM
That was a great thread everyone.

Thanks for all of your info TC.

This is why I read Redszone.

Caseyfan21
07-17-2006, 01:19 AM
TC, were you out in Arizona this weekend for the D-Backs/Brew Crew series? I just read a few of your comments and it made me seem like you were. If so, bad weekend to come out with the rain clouds yesterday and record highs Friday.

I made it out to 2/3 game (Friday and Sunday). The D-Backs have really been on a roll the past week and they have lots of reasons to be very excited with all of the young talent. I was very impressed with Stephen Drew at this afternoon's game. While I don't think he's gotten a hit yet, his defense surprised me. I really haven't read much in terms of scouting reports on him but I kind of had an illusion he was all hit/little defense type of player. He made a few big league plays and I was very impressed with his angle to balls, footwork, and arm. He will be a great player.

I was also impressed with Byrns in center. Talking with some fans Friday night it's obvious they have a love for his all out play like we do with Freel.

Prince Fielder was another one I came away impressed with. While his defense was a little suspect, his bat was very solid and the play that impressed me most was when he hit the ball into left, hustled hard the whole way and turned it into a double. His speed, once he gets going, is a little deceptive.

Sorry to steal the thread, just thought I'd share some thoughts from the games and see if TC or anyone else had seen any of these guys play and what they thought.

redbuck
07-17-2006, 02:00 AM
Good stuff. I'm a writer at Bucknuts.com and we have a 9-page thread about "the trade" on our premium board as we speak. This site (and specifically this thread) came highly recommended and it has not disappointed. Team Clark coming strong with inside information. Look forward to talking some Reds baseball with all of you in the future.

And for the record, my initial reaction to the trade was not good. I work in a small office in Columbus and I told my boss (also a Reds fan) about the trade and I was kind of angry. But I was wrong. Now that the dust has settled it looks like a good deal. And Krivsky more than deserves the benefit of the doubt for the long line of excellent moves he has made (Arroyo, Phillips, Hatteberg, Ross, Guardado, Castro). Just get us in those playoffs. Wildcard is looking real good right now.

vic715
07-17-2006, 02:30 AM
Thanks to Team Clark and the rest of Redszone this has indeed been the best post and thread I've read in the 6 years I've been here. I called to tell one of my best friends who is a truckdriver on the road and informed him about the trade. He and I were both teenagers when the Reds traded Frank Robinson. WE both talked about the no name relievers we recieved and we discussed how baseball has changed in the last 40 years.
For those of you that don't think the game has changed let me tell you that if Bill Dewitt would have pulled this particular trade in 1965 with the same two guys for young middle relievers he would have been run out of baseball.Back then middle relievers were usually starters at the end of their careers who were struggling to stay in the Big Leagues.Todays game they are a must ( as our bullpen has showed us well in the last month) and have to be effective or your chances of winning a championship are zero.
If the Reds could aquire Branden Webb and we had to giveup Homer Bailey to do it then I'd do it in a heartbeat.Webb is only 29 and he's a proven big league pitcher. Thanks again guys.

thatcoolguy_22
07-17-2006, 02:41 AM
Homer bailey for b-webb? its done. Bailey is an elbow away from never even getting a chance to pitch in the majors. Webb is proven and among the top 10 pitchers in the league this year... Granted the odds are high that Bailey will become a high level pitcher, there are just too many variable for anyone to know. 1 bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush or something like that... Also the trade puts us in a beautiful posistion to make the playoffs this year. No one else bad talk it. Lopez's glove is equal to a high school shortstop and this is the first year since his rookie season than Kearns hasn't been on the DL... Bray is a rookie with a quality arm and Maj is only 26 and he has proven himself over the last year and a half. Bats are easy to come across at the major league level but arms don't grown on trees...

pogwilley
07-17-2006, 10:49 AM
This was reposted on the Reds Message Board and I came over and registered so I could thank you. Have always had a few doubts about Kearns and I just could not figure out what was going on with Lopez. You put it in context for me and I very much appreciate it.

MikeS21
07-17-2006, 02:21 PM
TeamClark,

Once again, you have outdone (outdid?) yourself. This kind of insight is what keeps me hanging around RedsZone.

Couple of quick questions:

1) Have you had any follow-up on who the Reds got in return from Washington? I am especially intrigued by Bray and Thompson, but Allen is also a bit interesting. What are other scouts saying about these guys?

2) You mentioned earlier - maybe it was another thread - that you expected an influx of new faces into the Reds' FO, as Krivsky brings in more of his own people. Over the last 8-10 years with the Bowden/O'Brien regiemes, I kind of got the idea that around baseball, the Reds' FO was more of a joke than anything else. Has that perception changed and doyou think Krivsky can bring in some quality FO people?

Thanks!

Tommyjohn25
07-17-2006, 02:35 PM
2) You mentioned earlier - maybe it was another thread - that you expected an influx of new faces into the Reds' FO, as Krivsky brings in more of his own people. Over the last 8-10 years with the Bowden/O'Brien regiemes, I kind of got the idea that around baseball, the Reds' FO was more of a joke than anything else. Has that perception changed and doyou think Krivsky can bring in some quality FO people?

I've often wondered the same thing, very good question. Hopefully TC reads it and responds!

smith288
07-17-2006, 03:09 PM
This was reposted on the Reds Message Board and I came over and registered so I could thank you. Have always had a few doubts about Kearns and I just could not figure out what was going on with Lopez. You put it in context for me and I very much appreciate it.
Wash yourself of that stain and never return to it. You will be better for it. RedsZone is the medicine where as reds.com is the illness. :)

Scoop55
07-17-2006, 04:05 PM
Team Clark:

What are your thoughts on Jerry Narron's performance and how he has managed this team so far. What are the players thoughts of him?

bounty37h
07-17-2006, 04:16 PM
Here's the run down.

1992-1993 & ST 1994 Pittsburgh Pirates organization as a catcher. Some kid named Kendall got in my way! :devil: Ohhh man. Please don't look up my stats. I'm a SABR nightmare.

Mets organization coach at AAA Tidewater 95-98.

Expos professional scout. 98-99

Anaheim Angels roving catching instructor 2002.

Florence Freedom prison inmate 2003.:laugh:

Well needed vacation 2004.

2005 Player Development

This season Tampa Bay dual role in Scouting and Player Development. Major League Scout and I work with the new catchers every few weeks.

TC-I am in Durham, and at Bulls games weekly-going tonight. Whats your take on the "drama" this years team has had to endure, and that impact onthe org's view of them.

smith288
07-17-2006, 04:27 PM
Team Clark:

What are your thoughts on Jerry Narron's performance and how he has managed this team so far. What are the players thoughts of him?
Read previous posts in this thread.

Team Clark
07-17-2006, 08:09 PM
TeamClark,

Once again, you have outdone (outdid?) yourself. This kind of insight is what keeps me hanging around RedsZone.

Couple of quick questions:

1) Have you had any follow-up on who the Reds got in return from Washington? I am especially intrigued by Bray and Thompson, but Allen is also a bit interesting. What are other scouts saying about these guys?

2) You mentioned earlier - maybe it was another thread - that you expected an influx of new faces into the Reds' FO, as Krivsky brings in more of his own people. Over the last 8-10 years with the Bowden/O'Brien regiemes, I kind of got the idea that around baseball, the Reds' FO was more of a joke than anything else. Has that perception changed and doyou think Krivsky can bring in some quality FO people?

Thanks!

When you mentioned "Outdid" it reminded me of that Missy Elliot song with the lyric... "Get your nails done, get a pedicure, get your hair did" Don't ask me why I know that. People that travel become strange I guess.

1) I keep hearing that Bray might be the ticket to this whole deal. He could be a Steve Kline, (young) Ray King pitcher for several years. That's good to know. When those guys were on they were automatic.

Harris is pretty good too. VERY talented but he needs to be in a good "system". He has that with Johnny Almaraz at the helm. The others I just don't have a lot of info on right now.

2) The perception has changed to some degree. Everyone knows that they are dealing with one hell of a baseball guy in Krivsky. Meaning he has earned his stripes in this game vs. a Jon Daniels in TX. Why do you think we brought in Gerry Hunsicker? There are MANY and I mean MANY who regard most of the people below Wayne, with a few exceptions, as a joke. The situation is getting better though... I'd say it has gone from Laughing Stock to Joke. This Winter it will go from Joke to Above Avg in about 30 days. Contracts expire Oct 1st.

I'll name some names because I could care less what most of these people think. Leland Maddox, should not under any circumstance be retained. :thumbdown He's done a good job in spots (firesale) but overall he's just an #@$ kisser. Same guy as when I was with the Pirates.

Gene Bennett... I wouldn't even know where to start. As others have said.. "Is he watching the same game we're watching". Hopefully he'll just retire.

Pete Mackanin is the worst Advance Scout the Reds have ever had and that's saying a lot since it used to be Gene Bennett. :laugh: In his defense he was ill prepared for this job.

I thought I would NEVER say this but Paul Pierson is probably out. I say "probably" because they hardly pay him anything. Paul, REALLY REALLY, needs to go to scout school. He's missed a large number of local opportunities. He can't project or evaluate. Of course neither can Marlon Styles so that's 2 out of the 3 guys in Cincy looking at talent. So basically Paul has good computer skills. I really like Paul personally but he's awful. :thumbdown

Grant Griesser was almost fired this year so don't expect him back. That's Naehring's best friend. He too has made sure the Reds did not sign good Minor League free agents who have gone on to have ridiculous success in the Bigs. :thumbdown If Griesser goes so will Naehring or vice versa. Out with the old....

There's more too and not just on the Baseball side. Good things are coming to those who wait!:eek:

Team Clark
07-17-2006, 08:13 PM
TC-I am in Durham, and at Bulls games weekly-going tonight. Whats your take on the "drama" this years team has had to endure, and that impact onthe org's view of them.

Just to be clear... Durham'd Drama? Or Reds Drama?

redsmetz
07-17-2006, 08:16 PM
TC, on the Down on the Farm board I posted an article from the Billings Gazette about their game. Rick Burleson was quoted as saying, "We're preaching defense and pitching, and let the offense take care of itself," which seems to echo Narron's philosphy. I asked if this didn't seem to be the up and coming mantra in the system. Your thoughts?

Team Clark
07-17-2006, 08:23 PM
TC, on the Down on the Farm board I posted an article from the Billings Gazette about their game. Rick Burleson was quoted as saying, "We're preaching defense and pitching, and let the offense take care of itself," which seems to echo Narron's philosphy. I asked if this didn't seem to be the up and coming mantra in the system. Your thoughts?

Could mean two things... 1) New Mantra or 2) If Jeff Young is still the hitting coach up there...and if he is then that's all they are going to get Pitching and Defense. Jeff is Horrible. Worked with him several years back. Typical Naehring coach signing. Winner to the lowest, most unqualified bidder. Geez. I hate to sound negative, but I have to tell the truth.

redsmetz
07-17-2006, 08:27 PM
Could mean two things... 1) New Mantra or 2) If Jeff Young is still the hitting coach up there...and if he is then that's all they are going to get Pitching and Defense. Jeff is Horrible. Worked with him several years back. Typical Naehring coach signing. Winner to the lowest, most unqualified bidder. Geez. I hate to sound negative, but I have to tell the truth.

Yes, their website says it's Jeff Young. So maybe after this season we'll see an overhaul of the minor league staffs too. The pitching coach is Butch Henry.

Team Clark
07-17-2006, 08:57 PM
Yes, their website says it's Jeff Young. So maybe after this season we'll see an overhaul of the minor league staffs too. The pitching coach is Butch Henry.

They would be better off without a hitting coach. Burleson and Henry do good work.

somethingtony
07-17-2006, 10:21 PM
TC what is the deal with Cesar Izturis he seems like a great talent that is sitting on the bench. He could be a nice player for a playoff team down the stretch.

Also i may have missed it in your Q&A earlier but what are the reds looking at to solidify this team for a run.

mash3024
07-17-2006, 10:46 PM
i just wanted to chime in and also say that this has been the best thread on the forum for quite some time. thank you to all of the contributors and well thought out opinions. also, thanks TC for all of your insider info :beerme:

MartyFan
07-17-2006, 11:15 PM
So, TC, if I may ask, Who are Krivsky's people? Who in our system right now is part of the future?

If you can answer that I would appreciate it.

Thanks for all the insight.

Slider
07-18-2006, 01:04 AM
TC, Thanks for all the insightful comments...

This is maybe the best thread I've ever read on Redszone.

It's the opportunity to read threads like this that keep me coming back to Redszone.

Thanx to all for a great read!

crazybob60
07-18-2006, 01:30 AM
TC, Thanks for all the insightful comments...

This is maybe the best thread I've ever read on Redszone.

It's the opportunity to read threads like this that keep me coming back to Redszone.

Thanx to all for a great read!

I would like to second all of what has been said in the quoted post above and would also like to add that yes, this thread is one that has me coming back and also one that has me posting more and more. Now if only I could post in The Old Guard. I think that the reputation points in general have something against me. Those daggon reputation points!!!!

MikeS21
07-18-2006, 09:22 AM
There's more too and not just on the Baseball side. Good things are coming to those who wait!:eek:
Thanks for the info. I have always felt that much of the Reds' problems are off-field. It's good to know that Krivsky is 'cleanning house.' Right now, I am almost as concerned with who Krivsky brings in to the FO as I am who he brings in via a trades. :laugh:

Let's hope that some of these 'lame-duck' FO people you mentioned by name, are not some of the baseball people Krivsky listened to, urging him to make this trade with Bowden. :eek:

Team Clark
07-18-2006, 09:43 AM
TC what is the deal with Cesar Izturis he seems like a great talent that is sitting on the bench. He could be a nice player for a playoff team down the stretch.

Also i may have missed it in your Q&A earlier but what are the reds looking at to solidify this team for a run.

Great question about Izturis. I'd like to know that myself. As far as what are the Reds looking for? I would imagine another starter. The rumoris they are looking at Lohse but I have not been able to confirm that. I would have liked to see them pick up Nathan but the Twins would not part with him at the time.

Team Clark
07-18-2006, 09:46 AM
Thanks for the info. I have always felt that much of the Reds' problems are off-field. It's good to know that Krivsky is 'cleanning house.' Right now, I am almost as concerned with who Krivsky brings in to the FO as I am who he brings in via a trades. :laugh:

Let's hope that some of these 'lame-duck' FO people you mentioned by name, are not some of the baseball people Krivsky listened to, urging him to make this trade with Bowden. :eek:

Krivsky has his core group to listen too. The more experience and better quality int he group the better the decisions. I'm not going to name any more names. One or two might be a surprise. I want to keep it that way.

TRF
07-18-2006, 10:05 AM
TC, Considering the sheer volume of transactions Krivsky has overseen in his very short tenure so far with the Reds, Why is it you think he's regarded so highly for his moves, when he also makes move for pitchers like Yan, and trades for 30 minutes of service from Cody Ross? It seems to me he takes a flyer on just about everything. That doesn't take a tremendous amout of skill. Some guts yes, but that isn't the same thing.

Also for all the slamming DanO hast taken on this board, and most of it well deserved, the organization hasn't seen this many quality pitching prospects in quite some time, most of whom were drafted or aquired by O'Brien.

GoReds
07-18-2006, 10:12 AM
TC, Considering the sheer volume of transactions Krivsky has overseen in his very short tenure so far with the Reds, Why is it you think he's regarded so highly for his moves, when he also makes move for pitchers like Yan, and trades for 30 minutes of service from Cody Ross? It seems to me he takes a flyer on just about everything. That doesn't take a tremendous amout of skill. Some guts yes, but that isn't the same thing.

Also for all the slamming DanO hast taken on this board, and most of it well deserved, the organization hasn't seen this many quality pitching prospects in quite some time, most of whom were drafted or aquired by O'Brien.

O'Brien may get the credit for it, but was he really the one calling the shots on the draft choices? I thought he left that entirely to his staff, much like Krivisky is doing now.

MikeS21
07-18-2006, 10:47 AM
Also for all the slamming DanO hast taken on this board, and most of it well deserved, the organization hasn't seen this many quality pitching prospects in quite some time, most of whom were drafted or aquired by O'Brien.
I'm not TC, but I would like to add to what you said here.

The biggest knock against O'Brien is that he was content to build through the draft and then sit back and wait five years for the farm system to finally produce major league players. Most fans, after several years of futility, were not willing to wait that long.

The seond problem I saw was that O'Brien relied upon a flawed minor league developmental system to produce those major league players. Other than implement a couple of stupid rules like the tandem pitcher system and the "take a strike" rule, the farm system was essentially the same as it had been under Bowden - including most of the same developmental personnel. The fans were promised an overhaul, but there was no overhaul.

I think the jury is still out as to whether or not we can legitimatley claim that we have ANY "quality pitching prospects." As I see it, Bailey may be the only one who comes close to being the real deal, but I still have SERIOUS reservations about him. The Reds' FO insist that most of his inconsistency over the last couple years far is due to O'Brien's insistence on the pitching tandem and insisting that Bailey over-use his secondary pitches. That could be true, or it could be that someone in the FO just has blinders on, and think they can convince fans of that. I hope that the Reds' folks who are saying that are Krivsky's folks and not the lame-duck folks Team Clark mentioned earlier.

Finally, the few trades and signings O'Brien made for the major league team, seemed to be knee-jerk deals, as opposed, to well-thought out and calculated moves. If I could describe O'Brien's deals with one word, I would use the word, "panic." He wouldn't do anything until it was too late.

The good news is that all of this is looking like it is changing for the better under Krivsky.

TRF
07-18-2006, 10:49 AM
O'Brien may get the credit for it, but was he really the one calling the shots on the draft choices? I thought he left that entirely to his staff, much like Krivsky is doing now.

Perhaps, but it was the staff he put in place. Slam him for the things he did wrong, and there were a lot. But give him credit too..

IMO, Krivsky undervalues offense. He has gotten rid of Kearns, FeLo and WMP, and replaced them with Clayton, Deno and Hatte. of those three, Hatte is playing way over his head, Deno is a relative uncertainty at the ML level, and Clayton is toast. Deno is the only plus player defensively, while Kearns is above average at RF, and WMP is average in CF, below average in RF. Lopez has been below average at SS this year, but subjective analysis states since the acquisition of Castro he was improving.

So lets take a look at the pitching Krivsky has dealt for and away. 1st, props for getting Arroyo. Best pitcher in the Reds rotation not named Harang. Though I firmly believe he could have gotten more, I have always stated Arroyo was a good pickup. As for the rest, and this is from the Reds website and ESPN's site...

February 10: acquired LHP Michael Gosling off waivers from the Arizona Diamondbacks.

February 18: Released Josh Hancock for being overweight.

March 31: Claimed pitcher Jon Coutlangus off waivers from the San Francisco Giants and optioned him to Chattanooga of the Southern League (AA)

April 2: signed pitcher Darrell May to a minor league contract.

May 20: Signed pitcher Joe Mays to a minor league contract and assigned him to Louisville of the International League (AAA).

May 31: acquired pitcher Esteban Yan from the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim for pitcher Kyle Edens.

July 6: acquired LHP Eddie Guardado and cash from the Seattle Mariners in exchange for minor league RHP Travis Chick.

July 13: acquired from the Washington Nationals RHP Gary Majewski, LHP Bill Bray, SS Royce Clayton, IF Brendan Harris and RHP Daryl Thompson in exchange for OF Austin Kearns, SS Felipe Lopez and RHP Ryan Wagner.

Also sprinkled in there was the usual optioning ups and downs of your Whites, Standridges, Shacklefords, Burns etc.

What I see in this was one meaningful acquisition (Arroyo) and a truck load of who cares.

Plus for a guy coming from an org that prizes defense, he's made only one transaction that gained him a plus defender (Phillips). Clayton's best years are well behind him. He might end up being worse over the course of the rest of the year than Lopez. Ross is probably average, but is the least of the three catchers when it comes to throwing out runners.

I think Krivsky could be a fine GM. But this trade was a loss which marginally boosted a weakness in the bullpen, made the SS position weaker in every aspect, at best made RF a wash (increased defense, lower offensive production), and did nothing to build for the future of the franchise.

lollipopcurve
07-18-2006, 10:55 AM
I think the jury is still out as to whether or not we can legitimatley claim that we have ANY "quality pitching prospects." As I see it, Bailey may be the only one who comes close to being the real deal, but I still have SERIOUS reservations about him.

I'd be interested to know who you consider to be a quality pitching prospect now in the minors.

bounty37h
07-18-2006, 10:57 AM
Just to be clear... Durham'd Drama? Or Reds Drama?

Sorry bout that, to clear up, yes, the issues some of the Bulls players (Young, Upton, and mean dude), and even the manager had. I am not concerned about it, but curious what that does to effect their next and final jump to the show, if anything. Do you go to Durham often?

TRF
07-18-2006, 11:02 AM
I think the jury is still out as to whether or not we can legitimatley claim that we have ANY "quality pitching prospects." As I see it, Bailey may be the only one who comes close to being the real deal, but I still have SERIOUS reservations about him. The Reds' FO insist that most of his inconsistency over the last couple years far is due to O'Brien's insistence on the pitching tandem and insisting that Bailey over-use his secondary pitches. That could be true, or it could be that someone in the FO just has blinders on, and think they can convince fans of that. I hope that the Reds' folks who are saying that are Krivsky's folks and not the lame-duck folks Team Clark mentioned earlier.

Bailey, Wood, Cueto, Ward, LeCure, Pelland, Medlock, Shafer, Salmon, Till, Dumatrait.

The first for have been dominating their respctive leagues for most of this season. Dumatrait is adjusting to AAA, the rest project as relievers, though I hold out hope for Pelland because he is LH and brings heat.

Certainly better than what the Reds have had in past years, as these guys have managed to stay healthy.

Dunner44
07-18-2006, 11:21 AM
Plus for a guy coming from an org that prizes defense, he's made only one transaction that gained him a plus defender (Phillips).

Castro was a Wayne pickup. I would have been fine if he was the everyday starter at SS, because he brings about the same as Royce does offensively, is younger, and is prone to getting on hot streaks, which would help the club at certian points.

While Wayne certianly has picked up a lot of junk players (remember the outfielders we had at the beginning of the season in AAA?) most of them were waiver wire guys, so there is no real cost. The only trade that made no sense to me was Cody Ross, but at least Kriv lessened the loss we took there by getting something from the Marlins for him.

The Yan trade was an attempt to bolster our relief pitching without having to spend big (a Kearns or Lopez) and it was worth a shot to see if the move to the NL would benefit him. If we can still get something on the market for Yan, I'd be very happy. But more likely teams will wait till the 10 days are up and get him as a free agent.

Team Clark
07-18-2006, 12:14 PM
TC, Considering the sheer volume of transactions Krivsky has overseen in his very short tenure so far with the Reds, Why is it you think he's regarded so highly for his moves, when he also makes move for pitchers like Yan, and trades for 30 minutes of service from Cody Ross? It seems to me he takes a flyer on just about everything. That doesn't take a tremendous amout of skill. Some guts yes, but that isn't the same thing.

Also for all the slamming DanO hast taken on this board, and most of it well deserved, the organization hasn't seen this many quality pitching prospects in quite some time, most of whom were drafted or aquired by O'Brien.

Excellent question. Great observations on this and your following threads. O'Brien was not well regarded as some might think before he was given the Reds job. The GM position was too much for him. Krivsky is highly regarded/respected because of the amount of respect he has earned in this game.

No GM is perfect and certainly no GM can be right all of the time. Wayne IMO is way ahead of the curve. Yan has one heck of an arm and has some experience. With the way the Reds bullpen had been performing, IMO, it was a good pickup. He wasn't great, but he wasn't garbage either.

Why the ire towads the Cody Ross move? Cody is a good ballplayer. He pinch hits gets hurt and misses some time. Not Wayne's fault.... So, Wayne knowing this guy is probably going to be wasted on the bench or DFA'd and may end up in the Minors does a good thing by moving him. Looks like he's done Ok with the Marlins.

Yes, it doesn't take skill to take a flyer on everyhting. But he hasn't taken a flyer on everything. I'm guessing you just want him to find more David Ross' and Brandon Phillips? Something made you take a shot at Wayne with that comment. Curious as to why. I understand your premise, but back up a little and look at what he is trying to do. Arroyo for WMP. You talked about not valuing offense... Wily Mo could, should, might be great some day. I'm not sure how much longer the Reds were willing to wait for Wily Mo to get his head on straight. The Reds SORELY needed a solid starter. A lot of the fan predictions previous to the Arroyo trade translated into "we'll score 8 but give up 10". How do you build around that? Meanwhile Arroyo is an All Star.

Phillips... this is where you have to have strong evaluators. I do not remember anyone else beating down Cleveland's door to trade fo Phillips. Pretty well documented.

David Ross... well documented.

Yan.. we discussed. They guy was serviceable. A gamble worth taking.

Is Hatteberg really playing over his head or is he playing better than people really wanted him too. There are still a lot of Casey fans out there that can't come to terms with him being gone. Hatteberg is a professional baseball player. Never been on a losing team. That's not all luck. Putting up good numbers in the big leagues requires actual physical skill and talent. Maybe you get lucky in the "numbers" with 30-40 AB's or IP's but that is not the case here. Hatteberg is doing it almost every day. Give the guy some credit.

Bray and Magic will help this bullpen through the stretch. Guardado has yet to dissapoint. Fans get a little po'd when GM's do not acquire the players they want him to. Well, it just doesn't work that way. These guys are a nice upgrade from the July 4th bullpen.

Kearns was overvalued and I am sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings. He has no one to blame but himself. See WMP but with more attitude.

FeLo I would have kept but I honestly think Wayne has something else in the works.

I hope this answers some of your questions. I have read over this a few times and I tried my best to keep it in context. Would be a lot easier if we were talking about this at Willy's... :laugh:

MartyFan
07-18-2006, 12:24 PM
FeLo I would have kept but I honestly think Wayne has something else in the works.

TC....My considerable gut tells me the same thing....He seems to be trading for pieces that he can trade to get more pieces...does that make sense?

nonetheless...the guy amazes me.

TRF
07-18-2006, 12:30 PM
There seemed to be no place for Cody Ross as a starter for the Reds. Knowing that, Krivsky aquired him. Now if his intent was for him to be the 4th OF, fine. No problem, yetKrivsky had a death grip on Q's roster spot and only just finally released him. So Ross made no sense.

Now David Ross made sense only if Javy was going somewhere else. And had LaRue not needed surgery to start the year, I think that is what would have happened. but as it is, Javy has become the Lizard's personal pitcher, and a three headed monster behind the dish is born. This is offset somewhat by Freel's versatility, but still makes for a sloooow bench when Freel starts.

Yan has a good FB, and no real history of success. He'll get another shot somewhere because of that fastball.

But if the market for Guardado was Travis Chick, then Krivsky wildly overpaid for Bray and Majewski.

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 12:30 PM
TC, you made a post last year or the year before where you heard some other scout or front office person tell you that out the Top 10 dumbest hitters in the league, the Reds had 5 of them. How many of those players are still here (if you remember that conversation)?

smith288
07-18-2006, 12:30 PM
FeLo I would have kept but I honestly think Wayne has something else in the works.


Like what? Big name or something like what FeLo was when we first got him in the Tor/Arz/Cin trade?

Benihana
07-18-2006, 12:57 PM
Like what? Big name or something like what FeLo was when we first got him in the Tor/Arz/Cin trade?

Let's try to get Brandon Wood from the Angels. Team him up with BP for the next ten years to form the best middle infield this side of the yankees. Problem is, without giving up one of the crown jewels (Bailey/Bruce), what do we have left to trade?

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 01:06 PM
Let's try to get Brandon Wood from the Angels. Team him up with BP for the next ten years to form the best middle infield this side of the yankees. Problem is, without giving up one of the crown jewels (Bailey/Bruce), what do we have left to trade?


I don't think a 1-1 of Bailey or Bruce would get it done for Wood. That wouldn't really get the Angels anywhere. I'm guessing the only way we get Wood is if we give up Harang, Arroyo or Dunn. I would say EE could be a base to a trade, but they really don't need a 3B or 1B. So, I'd probably stick with Arroyo, Harang, and Dunn, and I don't think any of those three are going anywhere, unless this team is going to be totally overhauled, which I still doubt.

MartyFan
07-18-2006, 01:10 PM
The Angels are looking for a power hitting OF...they were rumored in the Sriano sweepstakes but have not moved on it yet.

corkedbat
07-18-2006, 01:11 PM
Let's try to get Brandon Wood from the Angels. Team him up with BP for the next ten years to form the best middle infield this side of the yankees. Problem is, without giving up one of the crown jewels (Bailey/Bruce), what do we have left to trade?

About the most likely pieces we have left would be a catcher (most likely Larue), Freel and Aurillia (in combinations with each other or some minor leaguers someone has taken a liking too) and I don't know how much value they have.

The next level of possibilities would be if someone offered something of real value for Junior or some team with a big ballpark wanted to take a flyer on Milton.

The only other possibilities I see are if someone were to make us an offer too good to pass up for one of the young guys we have like Encarnacion, Bruce, Bailey, etc. - but that would really need to be for some kind of serious talent in return, IMO.