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howyoufreelin
07-15-2006, 02:05 AM
Does Narron refuse to play Edwin? This is four out of the last five games the kid has sat. Seriously, the kid has the potential to be a GREAT hitter and is already one of the best hitters on the club, if not our best RBI man. So why does Narron refuse to start him over the likes of Rich Aurilia? It just doesn't make any sense to me. If you want to play Aurilia, put him at short, HIS NATURAL position. If you don't like his defense. Tough. It will get better as he gets expierience. But, he made a great play last night, and was 2-3 at the dish with an RBI, so I guess its not that either. I just don't get it and quite frankly, it p*sses me off.

dougdirt
07-15-2006, 02:28 AM
1, dont ever give Narron the idea of playing Rich at SS. 2, Narron is a complete idiot. Maybe after Rich's error tonight, he will sit for a week.... nah, hes a veteran.

killuminati35
07-15-2006, 03:21 AM
I honestly would not play him until he learns to throw the ball. Offensively he is only slightly better than RA, the defense really doesn't compare (IMO).

If you look at EE's and RA's offensive stats there is not much of a difference. So you have to go with the better glove.

crazybob60
07-15-2006, 03:29 AM
When was the last time that Rich actually did play SS for the entire game? I still can't believe we have Clayton on our ballclub. For some reason I have never really cared for the guy as a ballplayer and it is going to be really hard for me to root for him in a Reds uniform and that is saying something. I guess I am going to have to take the approach I did when Boone was here and root for team when he is up and not the actual player.

kyred14
07-15-2006, 04:32 AM
I honestly would not play him until he learns to throw the ball. Offensively he is only slightly better than RA, the defense really doesn't compare (IMO).

If you look at EE's and RA's offensive stats there is not much of a difference. So you have to go with the better glove.

If that's the case, then why aren't we going with EE?

OUReds
07-15-2006, 04:34 AM
I honestly would not play him until he learns to throw the ball. Offensively he is only slightly better than RA, the defense really doesn't compare (IMO).

If you look at EE's and RA's offensive stats there is not much of a difference. So you have to go with the better glove.


I think a .045 difference in OBP is more then slight. but even given that, the glaring difference difference between the two is that Aurilia is 34 and hopefully not in the in the Red's long term plans.

EE is 23 and should be the 3rd baseman for the next 4-8 years. Yet he is wasting invaluable service time and development opportunity to sit on the bench for a player that not only will be toast in a couple years, but could be better used elsewhere on the field (namely the lefthanded portion of the 1st base platoon). It's not a question of RA or EE, RA could get his at bats elsewhere without damaging EE's confidence, development, and ticking arbitration clock.

There's also the small matter that RA at age 34 is currently outperforming his career OPS. The chance he'll continue such a feat the rest of the year, especially if he keeps playing everyday against righties, is...ummm...not good.

I'm not even going to touch the assumption that RA is a clearly better defender then EE, other then to say I disagree.

OUReds
07-15-2006, 04:45 AM
When was the last time that Rich actually did play SS for the entire game? I still can't believe we have Clayton on our ballclub. For some reason I have never really cared for the guy as a ballplayer and it is going to be really hard for me to root for him in a Reds uniform and that is saying something. I guess I am going to have to take the approach I did when Boone was here and root for team when he is up and not the actual player.

I have to disagree with you on one point, he was absolutely among my favorite players when he was creating near automatic outs while providing mediocre defense on teams the Reds were playing.

Now as a 36 year old has-been on my team stealing time from Freel on the infield? I'm with you. Not my favorite.

realistic
07-15-2006, 04:50 AM
EE is 23 and should be the 3rd baseman for the next 4-8 years. Yet he is wasting invaluable service time and development opportunity to sit on the bench for a player that not only will be toast in a couple years


The 2006 Reds are worried about winning this year. Every night its Narrons job is to put the best lineup together to win that night, and only that night. When a team is trying to make the playoffs they have no concern about 4 years from now. The ownership and front office have made it clear, to me at least, that its now time for Reds fans to start thinking about winning now. We have been waiting for a year like this. No longer is our main goal for the season "building for the future". I for one am happy about that. I love Edwin, but as it is now -today- hes not "hands down" the better player. Its a tough call, but its Narrons job to make such decisions.

OUReds
07-15-2006, 05:14 AM
The 2006 Reds are worried about winning this year. Every night its Narrons job is to put the best lineup together to win that night, and only that night. When a team is trying to make the playoffs they have no concern about 4 years from now. The ownership and front office have made it clear, to me at least, that its now time for Reds fans to start thinking about winning now. We have been waiting for a year like this. No longer is our main goal for the season "building for the future". I for one am happy about that. I love Edwin, but as it is now -today- hes not "hands down" the better player. Its a tough call, but its Narrons job to make such decisions.

I agree with you on this point, If RA was a superior player to EE then you play him as long as you are in contention age and development be darned.

However, to this point in the season EE has been better offensively and is more likely (then RA) to improve rather then regress due to his age, unlike RA who is outperforming career norms at age 34.

Throw in my (humble) opinion that EE has better range then RA at third making the defensive equation relatively equal, and you have a situation where playing RA over EE everyday is more likely to hurt the team over the long run.

Now consider that the decision doesn't have to be RA or EE. You can maximize RA's value by platooning him at 1st with Mr. Hat so you can benefit from his monster 1.044 OPS vs lefties while minimizing his rather putrid .663 OPS vs righties.

Now to me the decision shouldn't be a tough one anymore. It is particularly indefensible against a right handed starter as the situation was today.

Rob Dicken
07-15-2006, 09:47 AM
I agree on a few points from many people here:

Edwin's defense sucks. He is worse than Fe-Lo, and he gives the other team un-earned baserunners.

He has a great bat, there's no doubt about that.


I believe the reason Narron is playing RA over EE, is because of his veteran status. He's played more games than EE, who is also still VERY VERY young. By watching RA on the field, EE can only learn and progress in his Major League career. RA has nothing to gain from it, and nothing to prove. He's proven that he can go out, get clutch hits and make plays.

I'd love to see EE play everyday, but to say that I don't cringe everytime he gets a ball hit down to him or throws it to first, I would be lying.

pahster
07-15-2006, 10:47 AM
By watching RA on the field, EE can only learn and progress in his Major League career.

I've been watching Rich almost everyday since last year. It hasn't made me a better ballplayer yet. :p:

Rob Dicken
07-15-2006, 11:23 AM
I've been watching Rich almost everyday since last year. It hasn't made me a better ballplayer yet. :p:

Haha, me either, but then again I don't play in a Red's uniform everyday and nor do I have anything to prove to Jerry Narron. :p:

OUReds
07-15-2006, 12:21 PM
Ya know, I don't dislike Rich. He's got a fine role to play on this team. But to think that Edwin is going to develop by being in his mere presence is codswallop. Young players develop by playing.

If watching other people play third is going to help Edwin, then there's plenty of old tape of Brooks Robinson lying around.

Besides, this is Rich Aurilia we are holding up as a defensive paradigm here. His career 3rd base fielding percentage is .950 compared to .922 for EE. When playing regularly he gives away more then his share of outs. The difference being that, again, EE is 23 and likely to get better with reps and has fine range at 3rd. RA is a statue and isn't going to get any better then he is now.

Once more for emphasis, I like Rich, he has a valuable role to play on the team, but replacing EE in the starting lineup isn't it. Frankly, to my mind, the worst possible thing Rich could be doing for both the short AND long term health of the franchise is replacing EE in the lineup. Yet, amazingly, that seems to be the plan. I was with Narron up to now, but if this isn't the result of a lingering EE injury, I can only conclude Narron has lost his mind.

jimbo
07-15-2006, 12:43 PM
Besides, this is Rich Aurilia we are holding up as a defensive paradigm here. His career 3rd base fielding percentage is .950 compared to .922 for EE. When playing regularly he gives away more then his share of outs. The difference being that, again, EE is 23 and likely to get better with reps and has fine range at 3rd. RA is a statue and isn't going to get any better then he is now.

When it comes to fielding percentage, the difference between .950 and .922 is pretty big.

It was posted in another thread a defensive ranking that compared Aurilia and EE at 3B. Out of 18 players who have played enough innings at 3B to quality, Aurilia ranked 9th and EE 16th.

I agree that EE will likely get better with time, but this team is in contention and it's main purpose is to win games. If EE needs to be playing everyday in order to develop, then maybe he should be in Louisville. I'm not advocating that, just a thought. I think EE will be getting 3 to 4 starts a week the way things are now, which I think is enough not to hinder his development.

Team Clark
07-15-2006, 12:48 PM
Do not be surprised to find out that Edwin is not 100% healthy.

westofyou
07-15-2006, 12:51 PM
Do not be surprised to find out that Edwin is not 100% healthy.
Ankle sprains can take awhile, ankle sprains on a 3rd baseman with bad foot work and a tendancy to throw when his footwork is not proper is also bad and should/would cause said player to have a problem setting his feet with a bad ankle, thus increasing the chance for a bad throw, and all the fun stuff that comes with that.

OUReds
07-15-2006, 01:09 PM
Do not be surprised to find out that Edwin is not 100% healthy.

To me, that's the only thing that makes sense. If EE needs time off because his ankle is still gimpy, then that's completely understandable.

But why won't Narron just say that in the press to confirm his sanity? All it would take is to drop an offhanded comment like "Edwin is still not quite 100% yet, we need to break him in slowly". I don't think that would be giving the opposition any real advantage.

Jpup
07-15-2006, 01:14 PM
Do not be surprised to find out that Edwin is not 100% healthy.

If he's hurt, put him on the DL. It that simple IMO. He does little good sitting on the bench. If he can't play everyday in the 2nd half, the Reds are going to have to get another bat.

Rob Dicken
07-15-2006, 01:25 PM
If he's hurt, put him on the DL. It that simple IMO. He does little good sitting on the bench. If he can't play everyday in the 2nd half, the Reds are going to have to get another bat.

He's already been on the DL and been through Rehab. Technically, part of ever player's rehab assignment is not to start EVERY DAY from just being activated.

DoogMinAmo
07-15-2006, 02:05 PM
Maybe he isnt going on the DL because he doesn't need 15 days to recover, and the Reds can't afford to not have him for 15 days.

reds44
07-15-2006, 02:11 PM
He played 13 games in 12 days in Louisville, the ankle is fine.

I agree if Rich needs to play some bady, then play him at SS. With Kearns and Felipe gone we need Edwin's bat in the lineup everyday.

buckeyenut
07-15-2006, 03:02 PM
He played 13 games in 12 days in Louisville, the ankle is fine.

I agree if Rich needs to play some bady, then play him at SS. With Kearns and Felipe gone we need Edwin's bat in the lineup everyday.

Unless he tweaked it late in his stint or early in his time back.

Marc D
07-15-2006, 03:17 PM
I agree on a few points from many people here:

Edwin's defense sucks. He is worse than Fe-Lo, and he gives the other team un-earned baserunners.


The ONLY problem with EE's defense is his footwork which leads to the bad throws. His arm and range are well above average.

I don't think much of Narron as a manager but even I have to think EE isn't 100% at this point. I can't let myself believe he would be so incompetent as to consistently choose RA over EE if both were equally availible. NO ONE can be that stupid, can they?

jimbo
07-15-2006, 03:43 PM
I don't think much of Narron as a manager but even I have to think EE isn't 100% at this point. I can't let myself believe he would be so incompetent as to consistently choose RA over EE if both were equally availible. NO ONE can be that stupid, can they?

I guess that would put me in the category of "stupid" also.

icehole3
07-15-2006, 04:04 PM
Dan Driessen sat 3 or 4 years on the bench before he became a regular. I dont understand the "he's losing time and should be in the lineup" argument. If he splits time this year and gets it in his head to make the routine throw and not make an error every other game, then I've got no problem with how theyre bringing him along.

dougdirt
07-15-2006, 07:13 PM
Maybe he isnt going on the DL because he doesn't need 15 days to recover, and the Reds can't afford to not have him for 15 days.

Then they shouldnt have brought him off the DL when they did.

reds44
07-15-2006, 07:15 PM
Edwin is injured.

He suffers from a sevre case of Narronitis.

I hear it is a very painful injury.

:evil:

lollipopcurve
07-15-2006, 07:17 PM
Do not be surprised to find out that Edwin is not 100% healthy.

Yep -- has to be the case.