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View Full Version : "...those doing the panning are fantasy-baseball nitwits..."



Ga_Red
07-15-2006, 01:31 AM
02/08/07

dsmith421
07-15-2006, 02:33 AM
http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/071506mcclelland.html

"Those writing this article are embarassing themselves..."

KronoRed
07-15-2006, 03:07 AM
I don't like fantasy ball or the trade

Article proven incorrect.

GAC
07-15-2006, 06:02 AM
From the article...

Nationally, the deal was generally panned, but many of those doing the panning are fantasy-baseball nitwits who can't see the wisdom of trading two everyday players for two relievers, neither of whom figures to close games and get saves, at least this season.

But reality, which often runs contrary to the fantasy world, said the Reds needed to do something, and that they couldn't wait another couple of weeks to see if anything better or less expensive presented itself nearer the trade deadline.

He shouldn't have used the term "nitwits". An inappropriate term that lessens the general message/point of the article IMO. The majority of people who particpate in FB are FAR from being nitwits (but just the opposite IMO). But overall, he is correct, in principle, in what he is stating.

Even Bill James, in the past, has said some very unkind things about Rotisserie League Baseball adherents.

As stated... reality often runs contrary to the fantasy world.

I enjoy FB. Not playing it this year due to personal commitments, but overall it's alot of fun.

But it is nothing like the real game of baseball as far as running an organization, and the many intangibles involved.

There are some things you cannot overcome in the real world (ex: player contracts, budget constraints/salary) that are not inclusive to FB.

Again - as a fan, it's alot of fun to be in a league, have a premium subscription to Baseball Prospectus, a copy of Lee's Sabermetrics Encyclopedia (all of which I possess), and analyze/critique the game. And guys like James and Okrent have created insightful new ways of examining the game.

It's all about the fan (today's fan especially) getting involved.... and I mean really involved.... as compared to the casual fan.

Fans are closer to the game than ever before, and you have to give the two mentioned men above alot of credit for that.

But some (not labeling or generalizing all) seem to think that just because they participate in the above, and have success - that that translates into a formula that would make them a successful manager or GM in the real world of MLB.

Dan Okrent's game recast the fans as autocratic owners.... "There was a huge amount of envy involved," he says now. "I felt, 'Damn it, why do they get to own baseball teams? They don't know anymore than we do. They just happen to be rich because they inherited it or they fell into something. We could do it, too and we could do it just as well.' "

And that is the type of mentality/attitude seen at times.

It was stated on this forum a couple years or so ago, by one individual, that they could build a team/take the Reds to the post-season on a 30 Mil budget using the same system that proved successful in FB.

It's that type of "arrogance", and that many of those who are running organizations are somehow buffons and don't know what they are doing, that turns people off.

And that is where I respectfully disagree.

GAC
07-15-2006, 06:04 AM
I don't like fantasy ball or the trade

Article proven incorrect.

But you're an anomaly. An irregularity which may be difficult to explain using existing rules or theory. :evil:

NJReds
07-15-2006, 09:47 AM
That's why I don't go to rotoworld for trade analysis.

RedFanAlways1966
07-15-2006, 10:04 AM
Disclaimer on the article's writer...

He is Cleveland-born... an admitted Browns fan and backer.

That's all... :devil:

Falls City Beer
07-15-2006, 11:05 AM
I wouldn't know how to play fantasy baseball if you clubbed my orbital bone with a fungo.

But I thought name-calling was verboten on Redszone. :p:

CougarQuest
07-15-2006, 11:43 AM
Sean McClelland you are hereby officially warned that name calling is in violation of Redszone's rules. Any further such violations of Redszone's rules will result in progressive discipline.

Have a better day
:)

MWM
07-15-2006, 12:39 PM
GAC, what on earth are you talking about? No one has ever tried to imply that running a real organization is anything like playing fantasy baseball. Anyone who would ever try to say as much is a fool.

And yes, there are some people running organizations who don't know what they're doing (see O'Brien, Dan). It's the same way in the business world. There are plenty of people in high ranking positions within companies who don't know what they're doing. It happens. It's part of the inexact science of personnel evaluation. Some people are able to fool people into believing they are great at what they do, but there comes a time when they have to actually prove it without any smoke or mirrors to help and they get exposed. I'm not suggesting it's a large percentage of the people, but it's not entirely uncommon. And I see nothing at all arrogant about having a viewpoint on things that differs from these so-called experts. If you've got the ability to think and you understand the subject matter, it's perfectly reasonable to evaluate decisions made by high ranking people and feel that they're wrong. According to your definition, anytime you have a opinion that differs from someone in a high ranking position in baseball, you're arrogant because they must know what they're doing. You've basically just said that they're always right by virtue of their job title. If that's not what you're saying then you've implied that people like you or me just aren't smart enough to evaluate the wisdom of decisions made by these people. It's one or the other. If you've ever questioned a manager or GM, and I know you have, then you fit the definition of arrogant that you laid out in your post above.

Sorry GAC, but business leaders make mistakes, and plenty of those mistakes can be spotted the second they're made by people who have knowledge of the industry or business they're in. I'm not going to assume that they must be right because they hold the position and I don't. And the notion that somehow people like you or I aren't smart enough to form an opinion or understand the implications of things such as baseball trades irritates me a little. You said these exaact same things, almost word for word, on the moves made by Dan O'Brien.

RedsBaron
07-15-2006, 12:43 PM
It rarely ceases to amaze me how there is apparently no requirement that a reporter know anything about a subject before writing an article about it. The trade may or may not work out, but, at the very least, legitimate questions can be raised about the trade, and those doing the questioning are hardly nitwits.

Hap
07-15-2006, 12:49 PM
From the article...
Even Bill James, in the past, has said some very unkind things about Rotisserie League Baseball adherents.


I find this statement quite intriguing. Fantasy Leaguers have spent millions of dollars on his literature.

MWM
07-15-2006, 12:50 PM
It rarely ceases to amaze me how there is apparently no requirement that a reporter know anything about a subject before writing an article about it. The trade may or may not work out, but, at the very least, legitimate questions can be raised about the trade, and those doing the questioning are hardly nitwits.

Exactly. These things aren't black and white. I didn't like this trade at all, but I'm also smart enough to realize that there was a rationale behind it and I'm not the only one capable of forming a reasonable opinion and those who see it differently aren't being irrational. It drives me nuts when people try to pigeon hole people into a certain group just because they see things a different way, like the idea that if you didn't like this trade, then you must be....A, B, or C. Like it's not possible to look on a trade like this one and reasonable come to the opinion that it wasn't good for the Reds. And if you do then you're being arrogant and you're implying that you could do better or that WK doesn't know what he's doing.

Did Duquette know what he was doing when he traded Kazmir to the D-Rays for a very average injury prone pitcher when they really weren't in the race to begin with? Was it arrogant for Mets fans to question that move when it was made. How about for Giants fans who traded Joe Nathan and Francisco Liriano to the Twins for Pierzynski?

flyer85
07-15-2006, 12:59 PM
The Reds needed to do something, it remains to be seen if this trade was what needed to be done.

flyer85
07-15-2006, 01:01 PM
It rarely ceases to amaze me how there is apparently no requirement that a reporter know anything about a subject before writing an article about it. Being friends with and knowing a number of the DDN sportswriters you have no idea how true that statement is. Some aren't even sports fans.

RedFanAlways1966
07-15-2006, 01:08 PM
The Reds needed to do something, it remains to be seen if this trade was what needed to be done.

I agree, flyer85. It may backfire... FeLo and AK may be yearly All-Stars in the future. The arms the REDS got in return may be busts. But to do nothing with a team that is a playoff contender at the break is DOB-Carl like. There is lots of back-n-forth on this great site between the most loyal of REDS fans. Trades will do that. Time will tell if this was good or not. I am glad the deal was made. I will not state whether it was a good deal or not for either team... I'll wait. But to sit idle with this so far surprising team would have been the wrong thing to do IMO. Trades can burn and they can help.

Alexander-for-Smoltz is a fav trade of mine to discuss. Good for one in the short-term and good for the other in the long-term. I am sure Braves fans were hating it in 1984. I am sure they were loving it in 1994. I am sure Tigers fans were loving it in 1984. I am sure they were hating it in 1994. Who knows how this recent trade will treat us and treat the Nats fans. Only time will tell.

membengal
07-15-2006, 01:13 PM
1987. That was a 1987 deal.

RedFanAlways1966
07-15-2006, 01:21 PM
1987. That was a 1987 deal.

Oops! Thx, mem. My memory is not as good as it used to be!

GAC
07-15-2006, 03:50 PM
GAC, what on earth are you talking about? No one has ever tried to imply that running a real organization is anything like playing fantasy baseball. Anyone who would ever try to say as much is a fool.

Well then there alot of fools in this world Mike, and yes, it was said on here, and others remember the statement because we have discussed (and laughed at it) when it is ever brought up outside of this forum.

Do you think I just said that to be saying it?

The statement by Dan Okrent, the "father" of Rotiserie Baseball, which I posted above, does "capture" IMO, and with many others, the attitude of a segment (not all - and I never implied such) who play Fantasy Baseball, and all it's "trappings".

And if you say that attitude/mindset has never been advocated on this forum, as many years as you've been on it, then I don't know what to say.

I'll leave that up to the jury of our peers to decide Mike.


You've basically just said that they're always right by virtue of their job title.

I never said, nor implied that. Show me where I stated that above? You have the greatest gift for being able to "read between the lines".


If that's not what you're saying then you've implied that people like you or me just aren't smart enough to evaluate the wisdom of decisions made by these people.....If you've ever questioned a manager or GM, and I know you have, then you fit the definition of arrogant that you laid out in your post above.......And the notion that somehow people like you or I aren't smart enough to form an opinion or understand the implications of things such as baseball trades irritates me a little.

Never said that either. Nowhere in my previous post did I generalize or say that fans were basically dolts with no knowledge of the game, or that they shouldn't/can't question those within baseball's structure organization.

That is your assumption Mike.

In fact Mike, I said this...


He shouldn't have used the term "nitwits". An inappropriate term that lessens the general message/point of the article IMO. The majority of people who particpate in FB are FAR from being nitwits (but just the opposite IMO).

I also went on to say that fantasy baseball has drawn fans closer, and more involved in the game then ever before.

That's a plus Mike. ;)

You are distorting what I am saying, and again getting defensive, because you misconstrue my statements as being an attack/put down on fantasy leagues and sabermetrics (which is heavily utilized in those leagues).

And you've always held that view on me, and I could care less, nor am I going to let it bother me. I know differently.

My previous statement was not directed at baseball's fanbase as a whole - I made that clear Mike - but at a certain segment within the FB ranks who, while being very knowledgeable and astute students of the game, feel that could translate that into being a solid ML manager or GM.

And yes Mike, those individuals do exist.


You said these exaact same things, almost word for word, on the moves made by Dan O'Brien.

Oh I did not Mike. Do your research. You define not joining in on the DanO bashing on here as meaning we somehow agreed with him, and were blind followers. I just didn't get caught up in it. The only thing I, and many did, at the time was not go off the deep end when they acquired Milton because we weren't really sure how it was going to turn out. I took a "wait and see" approach when that acquistion went down. Other then that, you'll be hard pressed to find statements by me where I was going out of my way defending Dano.

I guess you forgot about the Dano on the crapper avatar that I had for quite some time. ;)

Redsfaithful
07-15-2006, 06:33 PM
You are distorting what I am saying, and again getting defensive, because you misconstrue my statements as being an attack/put down on fantasy leagues and sabermetrics (which is heavily utilized in those leagues).

Fantasy baseball owners might be fans of sabermetrics, but the leagues themselves are pretty old school. Most use runs, RBI's, stolen bases, batting average, wins ... mostly "old school" stats.

GAC
07-15-2006, 07:06 PM
Fantasy baseball owners might be fans of sabermetrics, but the leagues themselves are pretty old school. Most use runs, RBI's, stolen bases, batting average, wins ... mostly "old school" stats.

Not the league I played in, for the most part. :lol:

Redsfaithful
07-16-2006, 01:32 AM
Not the league I played in, for the most part. :lol:

True, some leagues tweak things quite a bit (I've played in a couple sabermetric leagues over the years), but most traditional 5x5 leagues use old school stats.

GAC
07-16-2006, 07:08 AM
True, some leagues tweak things quite a bit (I've played in a couple sabermetric leagues over the years), but most traditional 5x5 leagues use old school stats.

I understand. But when you look at those people on this forum who participate in FB leagues, and read over the Fantasy Island forum on here - there ain't much "old school".

I consider myself a "mutt". I utilized both depending on the situation. :D