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LINEDRIVER
07-15-2006, 10:31 AM
A bit ironic that FeLo was charged with a fielding error on the first ball hit to him as the new Washington SS on Friday night. FeLo muffed a routine doubleplay grounder in the 2nd inning, the runners were safe at 1st and 2nd base.

FeLo batted 2nd and went 0-for-4.

Kearns played CF and batted clean-up. He went 0-for-3 and was hit by a pitch.

FeLo & Kearns left a total of 10 runners on base.
FeLo & Kearns, with 2 outs, left a total of 7 runners on base.

The Pirates defeated the Nationals in Pittsburgh, 7-4.

.

letsgojunior
07-15-2006, 10:33 AM
Okay, but if we update every time they play poorly, lets be sure to update when they go 4-4 with a homer too.

LINEDRIVER
07-15-2006, 10:36 AM
I just happened to think it is a bit ironic that a major reason FeLo was traded was because of his weak defense and he goes on to flub the first ball hit to him while with his new team.

I have no intention of giving a daily FeLo/Kearns update.

I'll leave that for you or anybody else who would care to do that.

membengal
07-15-2006, 11:01 AM
Clayton flubs sure grounder, almost costing Reds a win...

PuffyPig
07-15-2006, 11:42 AM
Clayton flubs sure grounder, almost costing Reds a win...
A little exageration to be sure. It didn't even cost us a run. It could have cost us the game, but any error in any situation might cost you the game.

flyer85
07-15-2006, 12:40 PM
A little exageration to be sure. It didn't even cost us a run. It could have cost us the game, but any error in any situation might cost you the game.However, it was a huge play in the game. It could have been a most critical out and brought the go ahead run to the plate instead of ending an inning. How to minimize how big it was at the moment.

RedFanAlways1966
07-15-2006, 12:59 PM
A little exageration to be sure. It didn't even cost us a run. It could have cost us the game, but any error in any situation might cost you the game.

I agree. REDS fans should understand that an error can cost the team the game... we've been living that way all season (and last year too).

RE: Clayton's error... "could ofs" don't play. I didn't like the error, but fortunately the team picked him up. Prior to his arrival there were errors at that position that did hurt the team (more than once).

flyer85
07-15-2006, 01:05 PM
Clayton is 36, a below average SS who is only marginally better defensively than what was here in Lopez. He is a huge offensive downgrade and playing him everyday will only make the task of winning more difficult.

reds44
07-15-2006, 01:06 PM
Castro or Phillips should be playing SS. I would even take Rich over Clayton at SS.

membengal
07-15-2006, 01:11 PM
All I know is the rationale for putting a toothpick carrying hitter into the line-up is that "he makes the sure plays". Well, last night, he sure as hell did NOT make the sure play. In fact, looking at his defensive stats, he is no more likely to make the sure play than the departed Felipe. And, his error last night was ginormous. It prolonged the inning, and brought the go-ahead run to the plate. It was a kick-to-the-groin error, and we are all fortunate as fans that Mercker actually retired a lefty last night (when will Narron get the memo Merck isn't a LOOGY?). But there is no way to minimize that the Reds sent packing an actual major league bat for a guy who OPS' just a bit better than Puffy under the guise of defense when even his defense is not all that good.

Clayton's error last night was crazy bad. No two ways about it. Especially when you consider that his alleged vet-hands are the reason he is now on this team...

Unassisted
07-15-2006, 01:37 PM
Clayton flubs sure grounder, almost costing Reds a win...Thanks to the word "almost," right there's all of the proof we need that FeLo for Clayton was an even swap! ;)

membengal
07-15-2006, 01:43 PM
Right. Because if Clayton isn't a defensive improvement from Lopez, which he is not, then they are just the same offensively, right? (Insert proper sarcastic tone please)

flyer85
07-15-2006, 01:51 PM
Clayton is black hole at the plate ( sub 600 OPS against RHs) and below average in the field. And he is not going to get any better (he is actually slightly above his 60% PECOTA projection) so it is likely what the Nats got the first half is better than what the Reds will get in the 2nd half.

PuffyPig
07-15-2006, 02:21 PM
I didn't realize that Lopez was traded for Clayton? I don't think anyone beleives that Lopez is not better than Clayton.

Lopez and Kearns were traded because we had inhouse replacements and needed pitching very badly. The fact remains that we aren't using one of those inhouse replacements (Freel) to move Phillips to SS.

The fact remains that Lopez is just as likely (probably more so) to commit an error as Clayton is.

LINEDRIVER
07-15-2006, 02:29 PM
I hope to see Castro at SS more than Clayton, at least until Castro's bat cools off. I would like to see Phillips playing SS in 2007.

GAC
07-15-2006, 02:57 PM
I didn't realize that Lopez was traded for Clayton? I don't think anyone beleives that Lopez is not better than Clayton.

Lopez and Kearns were traded because we had inhouse replacements and needed pitching very badly.

Some seem to be missing that point PP. ;)

They don't care to look at the dynamics of the whole trade, and what the true goal/intention was - just that somehow Clayton got thrown in and therefore we are doomed!

Lopez and Kearns were two borderline players that had some worth, were expendable because, as you've stated, we do have players in the system who could give us comparable performance, OR maybe, in the long run, even better (referring to Deno vs Kearns). Yet to be seen, but Deno deserves the opportunity because Kearns was being good ol' Kearns.

And also - they were the only players, other then key players like a Dunn, EE, BP, or one of our SP's, who might be able to bring us anything of worth. Especially in a pitching-starved market where the sharks are swimming for scraps.

IMO - some are really over valuing the loss of these two.

Defensively, it's a trade off between Lopez vs Castro/Clayton (though I would give Juan an edge).

Offensively, one can easily give the edge to Felipe; but it ain't saying much IMO.... a .743 OPS (.325 OB%) overall - .658 over the last week, and .466 so far in July.

Some seem to think that Felipe "crossed the bridge" with last year's performance. But looking at his career numbers I'd say he had a career year and had simply regressed. ;)

Bottomline - Castro/Clayton overall are not gonna drag the performance level down at the SS position any lower then it already was with Lopez THIS YEAR. At least not enough to be as disasterous as some predict.


The fact remains that we aren't using one of those inhouse replacements (Freel) to move Phillips to SS.

I agree here. I think we'll see that happen after this season.

membengal
07-15-2006, 03:26 PM
The move to Phillips at SS should happen in-season. Like, immediately.

I am NOT saying that Lopez was traded for Clayton, just noting that since Clayton was foisted upon the fanbase as part of that dreckful deal, ostensibly to "settle the infield" and "make the routine play" that he is not really any more likely to do that than Lopez. And he hits a ****load worse.

Again, the return on that trade blows goats. And not moving Phillips to SS to give Aurilia at-bats at 2b (freeing EE up for at-bats at 3b) blows additional goats.

Selling the fanbase that this team is better off with Clayton getting significant at-bats at SS under the guise of vet gloveman, then watching as he immediately boots the kind of ball that he (and anyone is supposed to get) was particularly galling.

FlyingPig
07-15-2006, 03:39 PM
The fact remains that we aren't using one of those inhouse replacements (Freel) to move Phillips to SS.


Bingo

KronoRed
07-15-2006, 03:52 PM
The move to Phillips at SS should happen in-season. Like, immediately.

Agreed, this kid has played SS for years on end, I think he can handle it just fine mid season.

Me wonders if Bowden insisted on throwing Clayton in and now Narron feels he has to play him.

Doc. Scott
07-15-2006, 04:02 PM
I would hope, as we chart the progress of these ex-Reds in the Nats organization, that we do it out of a spirit of curiosity and not in an effort to root for anyone to fail. Sure, I hope Washington loses 134 games, but I hope it happens in spite of Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez, not because of them.

GAC
07-15-2006, 04:05 PM
Bingo

Freel is hurt. The shoulder is sore and not near 100%. I'm hoping it is not more serious.

This is what happens when you're TOO scrappy. ;)

reds44
07-15-2006, 04:05 PM
I would hope, as we chart the progress of these ex-Reds in the Nats organization, that we do it out of a spirit of curiosity and not in an effort to root for anyone to fail. Sure, I hope Washington loses 134 games, but I hope it happens in spite of Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez, not because of them.
I agree. I watched most of the Nats game last night, and I was rooting for FeLo and Ears to succeed, not fail.

GAC
07-15-2006, 04:07 PM
I don't think anyone is rooting for these guys to fail. Just simply that they are not as cracked up as some perceive them to be (over valued).

Doc. Scott
07-15-2006, 04:18 PM
I agree. I watched most of the Nats game last night, and I was rooting for FeLo and Ears to succeed, not fail.

If everyone plays great, the Reds win, and the Nats lose (because of their bullpen, hopefully), I'm a happy guy.

FlyingPig
07-15-2006, 05:46 PM
Freel is hurt. The shoulder is sore and not near 100%. I'm hoping it is not more serious.

This is what happens when you're TOO scrappy. ;)


Being scrappy isn't a bad thing...Injuries happen all the time in sports...Freel plays when other players are sitting because of a mild cold or a hangnail...Pete Rose was "scrappy" and injuries never kept him down either..

All's I'm sayin' is when Freel plays....the Reds are a different team. Things HAPPEN when he's out there..

I love scrappy.

Far East
07-15-2006, 05:57 PM
Freel is hurt. The shoulder is sore and not near 100%. I'm hoping it is not more serious.

This is what happens when you're TOO scrappy. ;)

A lineup something like this would almost compensate for the loss of Kearns and Lopez's offense, improve the OF defense and team speed,and be about a wash as to IF defense:

2B - FREEL
SS - PHILLIPS
CF - GRIFFEY
3B - ENCARNACION
LF - DUNN
1B - HATTEBERG, AURILIA
C - ROSS
RF - DENORPHIA

With Kearns gone, EE is my next choice of breaking up the Adam-Jr, back to back LH hitters. Don't call it hitting cleanup, just call it hitting 4th, the way Frank Robinson does.

I'd not bat Deno much higher in the order until/unless he proves he can hit in the bigs.

Matt700wlw
07-15-2006, 06:10 PM
Freel is hurt. The shoulder is sore and not near 100%. I'm hoping it is not more serious.

This is what happens when you're TOO scrappy. ;)

He's available tonight.

Newport Red
07-15-2006, 10:32 PM
A lineup something like this would almost compensate for the loss of Kearns and Lopez's offense, improve the OF defense and team speed,and be about a wash as to IF defense:

2B - FREEL
SS - PHILLIPS
CF - GRIFFEY
3B - ENCARNACION
LF - DUNN
1B - HATTEBERG, AURILIA
C - ROSS
RF - DENORPHIA

With Kearns gone, EE is my next choice of breaking up the Adam-Jr, back to back LH hitters. Don't call it hitting cleanup, just call it hitting 4th, the way Frank Robinson does.

I'd not bat Deno much higher in the order until/unless he proves he can hit in the bigs.

Dunn will lead the league in walks and strike outs if he hits fifth in this lineup.
Tell Narron to forget the lefty/righty thing and bat him in front of Griffey.

Ltlabner
07-15-2006, 11:14 PM
If everyone plays great, the Reds win, and the Nats lose (because of their bullpen, hopefully), I'm a happy guy. Oh...that's ok. Bullpen help grows on trees and be gotten for cast off players and trash...;) It will be like picking fruit from trees.

And I agree about Dunn. I don't care if they hit 8th and 9th. Dunn needs to be infront of Jr. Period.

OldXOhio
07-16-2006, 04:22 PM
If everyone plays great, the Reds win, and the Nats lose (because of their bullpen, hopefully), I'm a happy guy.

I won't ever root against Kearns and Lopez as I like both players. However, it does ease the pain of losing them like we did when they're not tearing the cover off the ball. Had we received a return in kind it might be different.

RedsManRick
07-16-2006, 04:29 PM
It's a shame Junior is absolutely slotted in the 3rd hole. His OBP is dropping like a rock this year and it would be nice to put Dunn 3rd, Griffey 4th, and Encarnacion 5th.

2B Freel
1B Hatteberg
LF Dunn
CF Junior
3B Encarnacion
SS Phillips
C LaRue/Ross/Valentin
RF Denorfia

Put Hatteberg and Dunn in front of Junior to maximize both of their OBP and both Junior and Encarnacion's slugging.

reds44
07-16-2006, 04:34 PM
Don't bat young players 8th, it sets them up to fail.

Put Deno 7th and the catcher 8th if you want to.

Johnny Footstool
07-16-2006, 04:45 PM
Lopez and Kearns were two borderline players that had some worth.

I've been posting this for days: Lopez and Kearns were both in the top 10 in OPS at their respective positions at the time of the trade. To call them "borderline" is simply an attempt to rationalize a bad deal.

KronoRed
07-16-2006, 04:47 PM
Put Deno 2nd.

oregonred
07-16-2006, 04:53 PM
There is some irony here in watching the Nats. In innings 1-8 today, the Nats rolled out three guys today with the following ERA's 5.87 (Livan Hernandez), 5.48 and 6.75...

Ramon Ortiz was the after the AS Break starter on Friday. Pedro Astacio started last night and Livan started today. Two has-beens and one gas can we saw start 30 times last year live and in person. That weekend lineup is like the old Reds days. 7-4 loss, 7-6 loss (with blown lead) and tied today in extras.

Granted they have some injuries, but the former Expos franchise has been turned in the span of 1.5 seasons into a pitching sinkhole. Team ERA approaching 5.00

The starting 8 looks great on paper though. 38-54 and trying to avoid a sweep to the Pirates (4-4 in extras)

Speaking of team ERA's. It's amazing to see the Tigers at 3.49, half a run better than anyone in baseball. (Angels second at 4.00, Mets third at 4.05)

Spitball
07-16-2006, 05:05 PM
It's a shame Junior is absolutely slotted in the 3rd hole. His OBP is dropping like a rock this year and it would be nice to put Dunn 3rd, Griffey 4th, and Encarnacion 5th.

2B Freel
1B Hatteberg
LF Dunn
CF Junior
3B Encarnacion
SS Phillips
C LaRue/Ross/Valentin
RF Denorfia

Put Hatteberg and Dunn in front of Junior to maximize both of their OBP and both Junior and Encarnacion's slugging.

I just started a thread over on the other forum suggesting Hatteberg second, Dunn third, and Griffey fourth. I had been wondering why no one else had suggested it. It makes a ton of sense to put a guy with an OBP over .400 in front of Dunn. With Freel/Deno followed by Hat and Dunn, Junior will have a ton of guys on base in front of him.

KronoRed
07-16-2006, 05:09 PM
It won't happen because Hat is slow as a turtle and it also puts 3 lefties in a row..something Narron won't do regularly

2B Freel
RF Legend
LF Dunn
CF JR
3B EE
SS Phillips
1B Hat/Aurilia
C LaRue