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BoCcc2832
07-16-2006, 11:18 AM
Do you think Denorfia's two run RBI should be a hit or an error? Not to take away the pleasure from being the game hero, but look again as a non-biased fan and tell me what you think...

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20060715&content_id=1557893&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Phil in BG
07-16-2006, 11:26 AM
Barmes had to charge the ball because of Denorfia's speed allowing the ball to get by him. If he would have backed off and fielded it cleanly, I believe he would still have had an infield hit.

Tornon
07-16-2006, 11:50 AM
Single, E6 allowing the second run to score?

Matt700wlw
07-16-2006, 11:56 AM
I say single....the ball took a big old funny hop on Barmes....It was up at his chest, and when he went to field it, I think he thought it would be a smaller bounce the way he was using his glove (underhand style).

goreds2
07-16-2006, 11:57 AM
Single, E6 allowing the second run to score?

I AGREE.

KittyDuran
07-16-2006, 11:57 AM
Error... but the circumstances defined this it. Bottom 9th, bases loaded and the batter hustling down to 1st base. You only need one out and the game is won. His thinking was ahead of his glove work on that play.

TOBTTReds
07-16-2006, 11:59 AM
Single, E6 allowing the second run to score?

That's what I say too.

RedsManRick
07-16-2006, 12:00 PM
Single, E6 allowing the second run to score?

That's what I'd say. If the bases were empty, it probably would've been just a hit. Even had he fielded it, it would've been tough. But the run scored because he didn't come up with the ball.

Chip R
07-16-2006, 12:02 PM
I am sure the official scorer wanted to score that an error but he did not want to face the wrath of Chris Denorfia.

Reds Nd2
07-16-2006, 12:09 PM
Single, E6 allowing the second run to score?

I don't believe it can be ruled both a hit and an error because it was a single play. It's either one or the other, and in this case it was correctly ruled a hit because Denorfia would have beaten the throw even if Barmes fields it cleanly.

Trace's Daddy
07-16-2006, 12:09 PM
I vote Error
Big props to Wise for scoring from 2nd base.:cool:

RBA
07-16-2006, 12:14 PM
If he would of field it cleanly, I think it would of been a very close play at first, but Denorfia would of been out. (IMO) But there is no way anyone can say for sure. So it just doesn't matter and let's move on. A ground ball to the SS when the game is on line doesn't say "clutch" to me.

MaineRed
07-16-2006, 12:17 PM
Who said it was clutch?

Dunner44
07-16-2006, 12:20 PM
I say hit. The throw to 1st would have been close, and Denorfia had already been in one bang-bang play that night. The first one was close, and might have been a hit (thats how Joe and Steve were portraying it), so I think Deno would get the benefit of the doubt the second time through, especially because it would only tie the game, not end it, and you don't want to be wrong on the last call of the game as an umpire.

RBA
07-16-2006, 12:22 PM
Who said it was clutch?

Well, I don't know if people are joking or not about Denorfia. But they seem to have unrealistic expectation out of him.

I just said the "hit" was not clutch, more lucky than anything else. I don't know anyone that says it was "clutch". Can I just state the obvious whitout getting the third degree?

RFS62
07-16-2006, 12:32 PM
I don't believe it can be ruled both a hit and an error because it was a single play. It's either one or the other, and in this case it was correctly ruled a hit because Denorfia would have beaten the throw even if Barmes fields it cleanly.


I believe you could rule it both, as a single if you think he would have beaten the throw would only allows runners to advance one base, and the error allows the runner from second to score.

But I agree with Kitty and would call it an error.

Jpup
07-16-2006, 12:34 PM
a major league shortstop should have caught the ball. would he have thrown him out? that's another question.

cincinnati chili
07-16-2006, 12:39 PM
I am sure the official scorer wanted to score that an error but he did not want to face the wrath of Chris Denorfia.

I agree, and this is a problem in Major League Baseball. If Selig et al are truly as concerned with the sanctity of the game's written historical record, they will take steps to standardize official scoring around the league and assure autonomy of the scorers from the players.

One idea would be to cut down the number of official scorers to 15 (plus alternates) and have them travel with the umpiring crews. Yes, this would cost more money in travel and salary headcount, but would be worth it. Further, if baseball ever elects to take on instant replay, this person could double in that capacity.

I think that ball is an error. It's not fair to Brian Fuentes that he was charged with two earned runs.

PuffyPig
07-16-2006, 12:42 PM
One things for sure, if you see that play 100 times over, the official scorer will rule it a hit 100 times.

And he could certainly have ruled it a hit and error if he felt that Barmess should have come up with it but Denorfia would have been safe anyway.

The official scorers view was that it was a very tough play for the SS to make. The SS basically has to come in on that play. Because of the nature of the hit, you have no idea how it will bounce when it hits the ground because of the spin on the ball. It sometimes bounces high, sometimes it will simply scoot low. The fielder has to simply put his glove down and hope it bounces into his glove.He has no time to react as to how high the bounce will be, because on a hit like that, you usually don't get a true hop.It scooted low, under his glove.

I think the official scorer made the right call. At least it's consistent with what is always called in that situation.

PuffyPig
07-16-2006, 12:46 PM
It's not fair to Brian Fuentes that he was charged with two earned runs.
Considering he walked one guy and hit 2 others, I don't have alot of sympathy for Mr. Fuentes. He gave himself no margin of error. You'll lose alot of games if you tempt faith too much. That's the "law of averages" in baseball.

gilpdawg
07-16-2006, 12:53 PM
I don't believe it can be ruled both a hit and an error because it was a single play. It's either one or the other, and in this case it was correctly ruled a hit because Denorfia would have beaten the throw even if Barmes fields it cleanly.
Yep. That's the way I see it.

mbgrayson
07-16-2006, 12:54 PM
I think it is a hit. You have to give Deno credit for making contact. How many times have we seen Reds srike out in this situation.

I watched the end of the Nationals game last night, and Felipe Lopez struck out twice with bases loaded and two outs. Ended up with 3 ks, 7 LOB, 2 BB, and 1 single. But did terrible when it mattered. (Also interesting to note that the Nationals bullpen gave up a run in the 8th and 9th to lose the game...lol)

reds44
07-16-2006, 01:10 PM
I would have given him a hit, rbi, then an E6 allowing the 2nd run to score.

reds44
07-16-2006, 01:11 PM
I don't believe it can be ruled both a hit and an error because it was a single play. It's either one or the other, and in this case it was correctly ruled a hit because Denorfia would have beaten the throw even if Barmes fields it cleanly.
Yes you can.

You see guys lay down bunt all the time that get thrown away that they rule a single an error allowing the runner to move up a base.

Reds Nd2
07-16-2006, 01:33 PM
Yes you can.

You see guys lay down bunt all the time that get thrown away that they rule a single an error allowing the runner to move up a base.

They would rule it a hit if the fielder has no opportunity to make the play and charge the error because the errant throw allows the batter to take an extra base. That's two seperate scoring decisions that have to be made. That's not the case last night, because Barmes didn't attempt any throws.

dieselman44
07-16-2006, 01:44 PM
i dont see how you could rule it a hit AND an error to allow the 2nd run. Barmes made one attempt to field it. Its not like he fielded it then threw the ball away allowing the run to score. I believe the only way you could score that play would be a hit OR an error to allow 2 men to score. And after watching baseball tonight and seeing the play I fell it should have been an error causing 2 men to score. Denorfia would not have beat the trow period.

reds44
07-16-2006, 01:52 PM
They would rule it a hit if the fielder has no opportunity to make the play and charge the error because the errant throw allows the batter to take an extra base. That's two seperate scoring decisions that have to be made. That's not the case last night, because Barmes didn't attempt any throws.
Yes, but they could have ruled it even if he fielded it cleanly he would have beat the throw to 1st, and the error allowed Wise to go from 3rd to scoring.

I could be wrong though.

RFS62
07-16-2006, 02:13 PM
Regarding the hit and error conversation, if you see it as a hit because Deno would have beaten it out regardless, you could then give him an error by not fielding it cleanly, which would have kept the runner on second from advancing more than one base, IMO.

redsfan1966
07-16-2006, 02:19 PM
from my vantage point in section 131, i immediately thought error...so I am going to stick with that...but what the heck, what an ending and what a celebration in the stands....

Reds Nd2
07-16-2006, 02:20 PM
Yes, but they could have ruled it even if he fielded it cleanly he would have beat the throw to 1st, and the error allowed Wise to go from 3rd to scoring.

I could be wrong though.

Like dieselman44 pointed out though, Barmes only made one attempt at fielding the ball. That's the play the scorer had to make the ruling on. It's either ruled a hit or an error but not both. Since Barmes didn't make any other attempts at fielding/throwing the ball, there wasn't anything for the scorer to make a seperate decision on.

Eric_Davis
07-16-2006, 02:34 PM
Bonehead play by the shortstop.....but that's why the Red Sox will win their division and not the Yankees. The Yankees have more boneheads on their team, while the Red Sox have a tremendous defensive team.

Reds Nd2
07-16-2006, 02:34 PM
A more important question might be, does Denorfia look like this guy? (http://www.geocities.com/tmwillia2001/screetch.jpg)

Highlifeman21
07-16-2006, 05:17 PM
Single, E6 allowing the second run to score?


Definitely a single. Even if Barmes fields it cleanly, I think he's gotta put it in his pocket and then deal with Wise. IMO, Denorfia beats it out if he goes to first. If Barmes fields it cleanly, then I think Wise gets out via rundown.

I can see the argument either way.

Ravenlord
07-16-2006, 05:23 PM
single and an error. looked like Denorfia would have beat the throw (Barmes is slow and has a poor arm) so 1 run would have scored. Wise scoring should be the error. although it should be noted that Wise and Deno are probably the only guys who score from second on that.

MaineRed
07-16-2006, 05:30 PM
Well, I don't know if people are joking or not about Denorfia. But they seem to have unrealistic expectation out of him.

I just said the "hit" was not clutch, more lucky than anything else. I don't know anyone that says it was "clutch". Can I just state the obvious whitout getting the third degree?

It just seemed out of place. Especially if it was not in response to anyone.

A random announcement that Denorfia wasn't clutch just seems odd when you say nobody ever said he was.

I honestly have not noticed many unreal expectations placed on Denorfia. Seems a good portion around here are upset that we traded Austin "Babe Ruth" Kearns.

Denorfia seems like the forgotten man in all of this.

By the way, since when is the question, "who said it was?", the third degree?

You said Denorfia wasn't clutch. I said, who said he was and you call that the third degree?

Yikes!

KySteveH
07-16-2006, 10:30 PM
They would rule it a hit if the fielder has no opportunity to make the play and charge the error because the errant throw allows the batter to take an extra base. That's two seperate scoring decisions that have to be made. That's not the case last night, because Barmes didn't attempt any throws.
Hmmm...I disagree. On the play in question, Barmes could have done 4 things (well, maybe more), and this is what you would assume would happen as far as runs scoring:

1. Fielded the ball and recorded an out - 0 runs
2. Fielded the ball and held it - 1 run
3. Fielded the ball and thrown late to first - 1 or maybe 2 runs
4. Missed the ball - 2 runs

The scorer apparently felt that "ordinary effort" would not have allowed Barmes to field the ball cleanly. I would have ruled "single and error" on the play. From here, it looks to me like ordinary effort would have allowed Barmes to catch the ball.

If he gets the ball and just holds it, I've got a single with no error

Now, if he throws to first, gets it cleanly to the first-baseman, and the runner comes around from second to score anyway, then I've got a single, a fielder's choice, and no error.

keeganbrick
07-16-2006, 10:37 PM
Even if Barmes got that ball I dont think he would have thrown him out at first base.

KySteveH
07-16-2006, 11:22 PM
Even if Barmes got that ball I dont think he would have thrown him out at first base.
Yep, it was close enough that you give the batter the benefit of the doubt in scoring the play. But you still can give the error for not catching the ball and preventing the run.

RANDY IN INDY
07-16-2006, 11:34 PM
I agree with Kitty and RFS62. Error. You should make that play as a big league shortstop. Right on it, Jpup. Have to catch it before you can throw it, and I think the speculation of "could he have beat it out" ends there.

Ravenlord
07-17-2006, 12:03 AM
I agree with Kitty and RFS62. Error. You should make that play as a big league shortstop.
yes you should. but Barmes being a shortstop is not all that disimilar than if you tried to make Russel Branyan a shortstop.

Reds Nd2
07-17-2006, 12:10 AM
Hmmm...I disagree. On the play in question, Barmes could have done 4 things (well, maybe more), and this is what you would assume would happen as far as runs scoring:

1. Fielded the ball and recorded an out - 0 runs
2. Fielded the ball and held it - 1 run
3. Fielded the ball and thrown late to first - 1 or maybe 2 runs
4. Missed the ball - 2 runs

The scorer apparently felt that "ordinary effort" would not have allowed Barmes to field the ball cleanly. I would have ruled "single and error" on the play. From here, it looks to me like ordinary effort would have allowed Barmes to catch the ball.

If he gets the ball and just holds it, I've got a single with no error

Now, if he throws to first, gets it cleanly to the first-baseman, and the runner comes around from second to score anyway, then I've got a single, a fielder's choice, and no error.

Thanks for the input Steve but I still don't understand how you can rule it a "single and error" on the same play. It seems to me that the scorer felt "ordinary effort" wouldn't have allowed Barmes to get Deno at 1B and scored it a hit accordingly. The fact the runner scored from second base is inconsequential here.

1. That was never going to happen. Barmes had no chance to make an out anywhere, even if he fields the ball cleanly. Philips scores. Wise and Encarnacion were going on contact and both would have been safe easily. Screech has an infield single on a slow two hopper to short everytime.

2. That's what Barmes should have done IMO. He should have realized the tying run was going to score no matter what he did. He tried to do too much and it proved costly, but mental mistakes or misjudgements aren't scored as errors.

3. Mark Berry was sending Wise around third base as soon as the ball got passed Barmes. If Barmes throws to first, IMO Berry is still sending Wise around third base and the second run still scores. It's credited as an RBI because Barmes would have thrown to the wrong base.

4. This is what actually happened. The official scorer has a couple of decisions to make here. Did Barmes muff the ball, when ordinary effort would have resulted in an out? Score it an error. Was the ball hit with so much force or too slowly that Barmes had no opportunity to make a play? Score it a hit. A single play with only one correct scoring decision here. It's either an error or a base hit with the runner scoring from second base.

KySteveH
07-17-2006, 04:13 AM
Thanks for the input Steve but I still don't understand how you can rule it a "single and error" on the same play.
Okay, think of a simpler example. No one on, doesn't matter how many outs. Ball hit to left field on two hops, left fielder muffs it, and as it rolls away, the batter-runner goes to second. You would score that a single and an error allowing the extra base, right? That's exactly what happened last night. A single was hit which allowed each runner to advance one base. Also the infielder botched the catch, which allowed the runner (who would normally only have made it to 3rd) go home.

RANDY IN INDY
07-17-2006, 09:30 AM
yes you should. but Barmes being a shortstop is not all that disimilar than if you tried to make Russel Branyan a shortstop.

Rockies problem, not ours, nor the official scorer's.

Reds Nd2
07-18-2006, 11:50 PM
Okay, think of a simpler example. No one on, doesn't matter how many outs. Ball hit to left field on two hops, left fielder muffs it, and as it rolls away, the batter-runner goes to second. You would score that a single and an error allowing the extra base, right? That's exactly what happened last night. A single was hit which allowed each runner to advance one base. Also the infielder botched the catch, which allowed the runner (who would normally only have made it to 3rd) go home.

Three pages into this discussion and the lightbulb finally goes off. I just want to :bang: right now.

Somewhere between reading your post, watching the Lo Duca error tonight, and then reading the rules again for about the 100th time; it suddenly became clear what you and others were saying about scoring it an error and a hit. Thanks for the patience and the explanations.

Reds Nd2
07-18-2006, 11:52 PM
Speaking of errors. Did they ever change Phillips from Sunday?