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reds44
07-19-2006, 03:54 AM
"I just got burned a little bit with my heart there," Narron said. "Miltie has shown a lot of heart and we have a lot of guys that do. Tonight, I got burned by trying to repay it a little bit."

"He did a good job getting Reyes out with second and third, one out," Narron said. "I thought he deserved a shot at it."

And Milton, whose confidence the manager was trying to boost:

"Obviously, that wasn't the right move," Milton said. "I didn't get the job done. Second-guess all you want."

KronoRed
07-19-2006, 04:02 AM
"He did a good job getting Reyes out with second and third, one out," Narron said. "I thought he deserved a shot at it."

Jerry, the shot was Lo Duca, HE WALKED HIM..that was the time to pull him.:angry:

dsmith421
07-19-2006, 04:42 AM
Narron's loyalty to certain players is nice in a way, but he's got to realize that when you put guys in positions where they are likely to fail, you're not only hurting the team, but that particular player as well.

Putting confidence Milton in that situation is just suicidal.

Edskin
07-19-2006, 07:17 AM
I actually respect that answer. It was honest. Doesn't mean it still wasn't a bad decision, but he gave an honest answer.

I tend to jump on the "Narron is a fool" bandwagon lately, but one thing that stops me is our record since he's been the manager. Look at our winning percentage the five years or so before he got here and look at it since he's been here-- it's a pretty big improvement.

I do think Narron manages the club well in the non-technical aspects. And I DO think that's important. I get the sense that the players like and respect him a lot more than his predecesors. I just wish he wasn't so bogged down in some of his old school philosophies.

MrCinatit
07-19-2006, 08:07 AM
Milton knew he should have been pulled.
Can we make Milton manager?

RFS62
07-19-2006, 08:19 AM
Last night we needed Captain Hook.

We got Captain Crunch

redsmetz
07-19-2006, 08:24 AM
I actually respect that answer. It was honest. Doesn't mean it still wasn't a bad decision, but he gave an honest answer.

I tend to jump on the "Narron is a fool" bandwagon lately, but one thing that stops me is our record since he's been the manager. Look at our winning percentage the five years or so before he got here and look at it since he's been here-- it's a pretty big improvement.

I do think Narron manages the club well in the non-technical aspects. And I DO think that's important. I get the sense that the players like and respect him a lot more than his predecesors. I just wish he wasn't so bogged down in some of his old school philosophies.

I also respect the answer. It's not often the folks step up and admit a mistake. Unfortunately there are those in the RedZone who believe every action Narron takes is a mistake, so when there is a genuine mistake it just confirms everything they believe any way.

I'm not sure what the solution to last night was. How does a pitcher indicate that he's gassed or it's time for the pen. We've discussed this before viz. guys pitching hurt, wanting to tough it out. I think what Narron did was admirable, but clearly a mistake (certainly in retrospect at the very least) and one that shouldn't have been made in the heat of pennant race.

RFS62
07-19-2006, 08:28 AM
Last night is the first time I've railed on Narron.

He probably was the only guy in America watching that game who didn't know Milton was done.

I respect his honesty. The decision still stunk.

remdog
07-19-2006, 08:40 AM
If Narron had not gotten his contract extention would he have done something different? I don't know but I still think that mid-season extentions (for both players and managers) are a bad idea.

Rem

oneupper
07-19-2006, 08:48 AM
It's nice to hear Narron admit his mistake. Did he learn from it?
That is the key. I frankly don't think so, because last night was part of a pattern of behavior, not an isolated incident.

Narron has been reluctant to pull his starters, even those who should be on a short leash (Milton, Mays, Claussen). How many times have we seen them even hitting for themselves, with the team behind, only to get bombed.
(Mays vs. Hafner comes to mind, Milton vs. Wright in NY...etc. etc)...

Last night, down by 2, Garner pulls OSWALT for a PH, after only 5 innings and 79 pitches (and Oswalt isn't a terrible hitter). Still loses by 2...but he gave the team a chance to win it.

Chip R
07-19-2006, 08:56 AM
"I just got burned a little bit with my heart there," Narron said. "Miltie has shown a lot of heart and we have a lot of guys that do. Tonight, I got burned by trying to repay it a little bit."

"He did a good job getting Reyes out with second and third, one out," Narron said. "I thought he deserved a shot at it."

And Milton, whose confidence the manager was trying to boost:

"Obviously, that wasn't the right move," Milton said. "I didn't get the job done. Second-guess all you want."

Translation: I don't trust the young guy so I went with the scrappy veteran.

RedFanAlways1966
07-19-2006, 08:56 AM
I'll keep my Narron comments to myself. I need at least 24-hours to cool off from the stupidity I saw in the 7th inning last night before I comment. I mean... I've seen Little League managers with better decision-making skills than I saw in the top of the 7th last night.

Oh wait... I was going to keep quiet! Sorry! :angry:

redsmetz
07-19-2006, 09:00 AM
It's nice to hear Narron admit his mistake. Did he learn from it?
That is the key. I frankly don't think so, because last night was part of a pattern of behavior, not an isolated incident.

Narron has been reluctant to pull his starters, even those who should be on a short leash (Milton, Mays, Claussen). How many times have we seen them even hitting for themselves, with the team behind, only to get bombed.
(Mays vs. Hafner comes to mind, Milton vs. Wright in NY...etc. etc)...

Last night, down by 2, Garner pulls OSWALT for a PH, after only 5 innings and 79 pitches (and Oswalt isn't a terrible hitter). Still loses by 2...but he gave the team a chance to win it.

I think this is clearly where the mistake was last night. I would hope that with the trades made, that Narron would be more apt to go to his bullpen. The shame is that if he'd have pulled Milton before the inning, Milton has yet another quality start (and as I understand it, he'd only give up a couple of hits up to then).

This might be the reality of this rotation that we can count on six from the bottom of the staff and now we need to rely on the revamped reliever corps.

RFS62
07-19-2006, 09:06 AM
There's a school of thought which would have a manager leave a starter out there to build confidence.

I think that's where Narron was coming from last night.

But it's dependent on a good assesment of what the pitcher has left in the tank. It's destroying confidence if you leave him out there in a situation like last night when he's running on fumes. It's an unacceptable risk. You take him out there and get out of the inning with a reliever, and Milton's line is pretty good.

TheBigLebowski
07-19-2006, 09:08 AM
We'd have done well to pull Narron in the 6th.

RANDY IN INDY
07-19-2006, 09:15 AM
Last night is the first time I've railed on Narron.

He probably was the only guy in America watching that game who didn't know Milton was done.

I respect his honesty. The decision still stunk.

Same here. Milton had nothing left, and isn't that why Kearns and Lopez were traded? Hope Jerry learns from that one. Should've yanked him.

redsmetz
07-19-2006, 09:15 AM
There's a school of thought which would have a manager leave a starter out there to build confidence.

I think that's where Narron was coming from last night.

But it's dependent on a good assesment of what the pitcher has left in the tank. It's destroying confidence if you leave him out there in a situation like last night when he's running on fumes. It's an unacceptable risk. You take him out there and get out of the inning with a reliever, and Milton's line is pretty good.

Here's another question? Where's the catcher in the equation? He should be noticing if the pitcher is slipping and relay that info to the bench. Am I just dreaming or does only happen in movies?

Heath
07-19-2006, 09:20 AM
"I just got burned a little bit with my heart there," Narron said. "Miltie has shown a lot of heart and we have a lot of guys that do. Tonight, I got burned by trying to repay it a little bit."

"He did a good job getting Reyes out with second and third, one out," Narron said. "I thought he deserved a shot at it."

And Milton, whose confidence the manager was trying to boost:

"Obviously, that wasn't the right move," Milton said. "I didn't get the job done. Second-guess all you want."

http://www.digitalstoryteller.com/BTV99/_images/blah.gif

edabbs44
07-19-2006, 09:31 AM
Here's another question? Where's the catcher in the equation? He should be noticing if the pitcher is slipping and relay that info to the bench. Am I just dreaming or does only happen in movies?
JN is the catcher...

redsfan4445
07-19-2006, 09:34 AM
right now the ONLY two starters that deserved to stay in are Arroyo and Harang. NOT MILTON! This is why this team needs another decent starter at the trade deadline and another bat to protect Jr.. Cabrera would fit nicely behnd JR.

flyer85
07-19-2006, 09:47 AM
So Jerry has a bad heart. The Reds really just ought to pitch the data, hell, Narron doesn't need it.

In my organization people who keep screwing up the simple decisions have two things eventually happen
1) They never get to make any bigger decisions
2) They lose their authority to make even the small decisions

We have the worst #3 hitter in baseball and while Narron has moved other people all over the lineup Jr in the spot must be carved in granite. Narrons screwball lineups were OK when Kearns and Lopez were around because those two gave enough offense to allow the lineup not to be that big of a deal. With the players now available the lineup needs to be as good as possible because the Reds are going to need every run.

This season is not going to end nicely, there are a few things that need to be done to maximize the chances to win and yet the manager is completely tone deaf to them.

Any bullpen option was better than Milton to
a) start the 7th
b) pitch to LoDuca
c) pitch to Beltran

FSN was showing graphics last night that screamed what a 4-5 inning pitcher Milton is (he is decidedly better before 60 pitches than after and batting average goes up 100 points each time through the order after starting at .168)

What Narron admitted to last night is playing favorites at the expense of the team. He goes with the crafty veteran every time and in every situation. Whatever chances the Reds have to make the playoffs, Narron is impeding them and will continue to do so. Last night was not the first absurd decision he has made with Milton and others and it will not be the last.

smith288
07-19-2006, 09:48 AM
right now the ONLY two starters that deserved to stay in are Arroyo and Harang. NOT MILTON! This is why this team needs another decent starter at the trade deadline and another bat to protect Jr.. Cabrera would fit nicely behnd JR.
Actually. Encarnacion would do nicely...which brings us to another gripe we all have about Narron. UGH.

StillFunkyB
07-19-2006, 09:48 AM
Beltran is .231/.343/.462 against lefties this year.

Was Milton done last night? You betcha.

Was it a mistake to leave him in? Yes sir.

I do have to give Narron credit for owning up, however...

With the way this bullpen has been this year, new guys or not, don't you think you would be a bit hesitant in that situation as well?

I know I would be, so I'm not gonna go all bonkers on Narron about this one.

smith288
07-19-2006, 09:50 AM
Beltran is .231/.343/.462 against lefties this year.

Was Milton done last night? You betcha.

Was it a mistake to leave him in? Yes sir.

I do have to give Narron credit for owning up, however...

With the way this bullpen has been this year, new guys or not, don't you think you would be a bit hesitant in that situation as well?

I know I would be, so I'm not gonna go all bonkers on Narron about this one.
That why you put in a fresh Bray. Lefty with some good stuff.

Milton was a lefty with coach pitch type of stuff.

flyer85
07-19-2006, 09:52 AM
Good decisions are not always justified by good outcomes. What you want to do is maximize the probability in your favor. Sometimes it doesn't work but that doesn't make it a bad decision, the goal is to minimize risk in decision making. Narron has shown time and time again the propensity to ignore probability and maximize risk by making decisions based on nothing more than a subjective whim.

membengal
07-19-2006, 09:53 AM
What Narron admitted to last night is playing favorites at the expense of the team. He goes with the crafty veteran every time and in every situation. Whatever chances the Reds have to make the playoffs, Narron is impeding them and will continue to do so. Last night was not the first absurd decision he has made with Milton and others and it will not be the last.

Absolutely spectacular post, flyer. It's what many have been saying for a long time, based on what we are seeing. It's not a conspiracy, it's simple observations of what Narron prefers. He prefers to play vets. Regardless of their ability or skill-set. In as many occasions as possible.

Which the Reds are apparently very happy with, hence his extension.

I still feel it is a less than desireable course to chart, and that you have to build for the future, which includes playing and using youngsters now, far more than he does. Of course he left Milton in, vets get the deference on this team under Narron.

I am actually pleased to hear him confirm what we are all seeing. Should lessen the arguments on this board. You are either OK with his vet love or you are not.

flyer85
07-19-2006, 09:56 AM
Narron has been reluctant to pull his starters, even those who should be on a short leash (Milton, Mays, Claussen).what I have noticed is that he generally is reluctant to pull any pitcher that have started an inning unless he made the decision to allow the pitcher to only pitch to a certain batter beforehand(like Mercker to Helton on Saturday). The decision to let Majewski pitch to Piedra with two on and two out on Saturday was a similar one.

princeton
07-19-2006, 09:58 AM
What Narron admitted to last night is playing favorites at the expense of the team.

what flyer85 admitted to last post was to paranoia about Narron's desire to win ballgames.

me, I'm taking a wild guess that he does want to win ballgames.

smith288
07-19-2006, 10:01 AM
Narron manages like I do in MVP 2005. I pitch them until they are lobbing 85mph fastballs

Chip R
07-19-2006, 10:04 AM
what flyer85 admitted to last post was to paranoia about Narron's desire to win ballgames.

me, I'm taking a wild guess that he does want to win ballgames.

Absolutely. So did Bob Boone. So did Dave Miley.

flyer85
07-19-2006, 10:04 AM
what flyer85 admitted to last post was to paranoia about Narron's desire to win ballgames.

me, I'm taking a wild guess that he does want to win ballgames.A complete red herring because that is not what was posited. What Narron does is consistently ignore objective data to play a subjective hunch with certain players.

Much simply, the Reds win in spite of Narron's poor decision making, not because of it.

RFS62
07-19-2006, 10:05 AM
Managing the pitching staff is probably the most important thing a manager does. It varies how much input and control he will give the pitching coach.

But getting guys up and down too much in the pen, overworking pitchers, and deciding when a guy is done are crucial elements of running the team.

The pitching coach usually comes to the manager before every game and they go over who's available and for how many innings. They should know beforehand how the pitching lines up for this game, and with an eye on the next few games as well, regarding usage.

You can run a bullpen into the ground without ever getting them into a game if you get them up too often to warm up. And you can blow a game like last night if you leave a starter in too long.

He went with his gut. He got burned.

flyer85
07-19-2006, 10:08 AM
He went with his gut. He got burned.It wasn't just letting him pitch to Beltran.

Allowing Milton to start the 7th was a bad decision.
Allowing Milton to pitch to LoDuca(when the Reds still had a somewhat easy out available to end the inning) was a bad decision.
Allowing Milton to pitch to Beltran was the denouement.

flyer85
07-19-2006, 10:10 AM
I've seen Little League managers with better decision-making skills than I saw in the top of the 7th last night. Nah, you're just paranoid. Jerry is the best manager in baseball. Pick up your kool-aid on the right.

M2
07-19-2006, 10:12 AM
Allowing Milton to pitch to Beltran was the denouement.

The paso de la muerte if you will.

princeton
07-19-2006, 10:22 AM
I didn't like this move, but too much emphasis gets placed on a particular move. As was mentioned the other day, if Narron gets one wrong but gets the other 7000 decisions correct, then the Reds have a huge asset.

From where I'm sitting, Narron has a very high BA. The team has won more game than its talent has justified. Narron has done extremely well given no bullpen and no pitching coach. Yesterday he misses a sign, feels badly about it and claims that he's learned. He's not Zidane saying that he'd do it all over again. I'm satisfied.

StillFunkyB
07-19-2006, 10:23 AM
That why you put in a fresh Bray. Lefty with some good stuff.

Milton was a lefty with coach pitch type of stuff.

I agree, I guess I can just understand where Narron was coming from on this one.

Now, if he does it again all bets are off. :)

registerthis
07-19-2006, 10:25 AM
I'm just glad we got all of this new bullpen help that will keep us from having to leave our starters in games for too long.

princeton
07-19-2006, 10:32 AM
A complete red herring because that is not what was posited. What Narron does is consistently ignore objective data to play a subjective hunch with certain players.

that is what managers have to do, given the fact that there really isn't enough objective data to match the different circumstances that appear. It'd be better for the game that you like to think about if they would play a million games a year, and if there weren't actually humans involved. Sadly, though...

(in other words, grow up)

but Narron should have brought in a reliever.

smith288
07-19-2006, 10:33 AM
I didn't like this move, but too much emphasis gets placed on a particular move. As was mentioned the other day, if Narron gets one wrong but gets the other 7000 decisions correct, then the Reds have a huge asset.

From where I'm sitting, Narron has a very high BA. The team has won more game than its talent has justified. Narron has done extremely well given no bullpen and no pitching coach. Yesterday he misses a sign, feels badly about it and claims that he's learned. He's not Zidane saying that he'd do it all over again. I'm satisfied.
Well, missing a sign is ok when its a Beltran solo homer in the 7th. Making a completely moronic non-move that allows Beltran to hit a game over grand slam is much, much worse.

CrackerJack
07-19-2006, 10:33 AM
Sounds like Narron was too chicken to take one of his vaunted veteran presences off the mound.

The obsession he has with "veteran scrappiness and heart" when it comes to pitchers is absurd.

Maybe he should be coaching high school ball instead.

flyer85
07-19-2006, 10:34 AM
that is what managers have to do, given the fact that there really isn't enough objective data to match the different circumstances that appear. there are reams of objective data that show Milton on his best night is a six inning pitcher.

BTW, if there wasn't enough data then why was it a bad decision for Narron to play his hunch and not bring in a reliever?

RFS62
07-19-2006, 10:35 AM
Sounds like Narron was too chicken to take one of his vaunted veteran presences off the mound.

The obsession he has with "veteran scrappiness and heart" when it comes to pitchers is absurd.

Maybe he should be coaching high school ball instead.



I'd say he's anything but chicken.

In fact, I believe his explanation completely as to his thinking.

redsmetz
07-19-2006, 10:38 AM
I'd say he's anything but chicken.

In fact, I believe his explanation completely as to his thinking.

I wonder whether he was reluctant to put the new kid into a very tight situation against a very good hitter. Now that might have been avoid if he'd not have trotted Milton out there to start that inning. But he's explained his thinking, acknowledged it was a mistake and I'm ready to move on. We're 4-1since the break. IMO, it's absolute foolishness to assume some bizarre "vet love" explanation - the general complaint often heard here on RZ.

Johnny Footstool
07-19-2006, 10:40 AM
Missing a sign is one thing, but missing a sign that everyone else including my Aunt Tillie and Crackers the Baseball-Watching Monkey can see is inexcusable.

But I guess the organization values guts over objective, intelligent decision-making (right, Wayne?).

Roy Tucker
07-19-2006, 10:41 AM
Like others have said, Jerry said he made a mistake. But like I tell my kids when they admit to their errors, OK, we'll put this in the past, but don't let it happen again. You won't get off so easy next time.

I think Jerry forgot they had made their big trade. Where was Weathers, Majewski, Coffey, or Bray? Narron used to leave his starters in long, but I always sympathized since the pen was a Molotov cocktail. But didn't this all change? We were at the game last night. When the 7th started, I commented to my son that I'd have Milton on a very short leash, that when his wheels fall off, they fall off fast.

But the inning was a slow bleed with a brain aneurysm end. Nady singled sharply on an 0-2 count, but Valentin's bunt hit was a little pop up that Larue dove for but couldn't hold. Both got sacrificed over for 1 out. Reyes hit a dribbler that Larue made a nice play on for 2 outs. Maybe he'll get out of it. Lo Duca walks after a couple very questionable no-swing calls by the 1B ump. Still nothing hit hard. But that all ended when it looked like Milton hung something belt high and Beltran hit it about 12 miles.

flyer85
07-19-2006, 10:51 AM
Nady singled sharply on an 0-2 count, but Valentin's bunt hit was a little pop up that Larue dove for but couldn't hold. Both got sacrificed over for 1 out. Reyes hit a dribbler that Larue made a nice play on for 2 outs. Maybe he'll get out of it. Lo Duca walks after a couple very questionable no-swing calls by the 1B ump. Still nothing hit hard. But that all ended when it looked like Milton hung something belt high and Beltran hit it about 12 miles.that why you use objective data, so you don't have to sit there an rely on the anecdotal.

The anecdotal says that "Milton sure has been unlucky this inning, why they really haven't even hit one hard".

The objective yells back "Milton sure has been lucky to have not been shelled so far in the inning, he is way past his normal point for being effective".

I guess it all depends on where you want to place your bet.

princeton
07-19-2006, 10:54 AM
there are reams of objective data that show Milton on his best night is a six inning pitcher.

BTW, if there wasn't enough data then why was it a bad decision for Narron to play his hunch and not bring in a reliever?

I liked your brighten up comment better. It made me laugh.

I have to admit that I have no idea why Narron would go with Milton in the situation, and that it reminds me a lot of Pedro Martinez/Grady Little with the exception that this was Eric Freaking Milton not Pedro Martinez. But sometimes managers do things to make a big point or to generate an important reaction, like when Sparky gives Fatso Fielder the steal sign when you know that there's no chance that he's going to make it but by god Fielder is going to lose weight. And I'm wondering if Narron is saying to Milton that this is no place for Six Inning Sissies and don't look at the bullpen again or you're off to Louisville. I'm still trying to figure out Milton's comments, which seem to shift blame to Narron

Also I'm a big picture man and the first-half bullpen was plenty enough to get a great manager fired, yet the Reds won ballgames. Maybe this is all luck-- if they played a million games with robots, then I'd know, wouldn't I? but it's enough to go forward. As Whitey says, winning as a manager does have something to do with game management, just a LOT less than fans think.

Roy Tucker
07-19-2006, 11:00 AM
that why you use objective data, so you don't have to sit there an rely on the anecdotal.

The anecdotal says that "Milton sure has been unlucky this inning, why they really haven't even hit one hard".

The objective yells back "Milton sure has been lucky to have not been shelled so far in the inning, he is way past his normal point for being effective".

I guess it all depends on where you want to place your bet.
Oh, I agree. I was just trying to get inside Narron's head.

I thought the Reds were in great peril and said the ice Milton was on was about a micron thick. After the second hitter in the inning, there was no logical reason for Milton to be in there, only emotional reasons. Bad way to manage a ballclub. I thought of Grady Little and Pedro too.

StillFunkyB
07-19-2006, 11:01 AM
I'm still trying to figure out Milton's comments, which seem to shift blame to Narron

Perhaps Narron told him it was his fault, and told ol Miltie that when the media comes a knockin....

flyer85
07-19-2006, 11:01 AM
I have to admit that I have no idea why Narron would go with Milton in the situation, and that it reminds me a lot of Pedro Martinez/Grady Little with the exception that this was Eric Freaking Milton not Pedro Martinez. .which I made reference to in an earlier post, that the Narron decision was much worse than the one that got Grady Little fired.

WIthout a doubt Narron has strengths. I realize this is anecdotal but that is all there is in this area. He seems to be a strong people person and is straightforward and honest with the players and seems to be well liked. It is in the game management/strategy where he seems to continually fall short, which honestly makes me wonder where the hell is the bench coach (are you listening Bucky). I thought the role of that individual was to bring up possible scenarios and options to the manager. Who knows, maybe Bucky does that and we just don't hear about it but I somehow get the feeling that there aren't a lot of intellectual exhanges going on in that dugout.

princeton
07-19-2006, 11:01 AM
I wonder whether he was reluctant to put the new kid into a very tight situation against a very good hitter.

agreed. If the Reds are going to take care with Homer Bailey, then they might be only slightly less cautious with Bill Bray

also, sometimes you warm up guys and the bullpen coach (do we have one?) lets you know that so-and-so has nothing.

though nothing is better than less-than-zero

smith288
07-19-2006, 11:04 AM
agreed. If the Reds are going to take care with Homer Bailey, then they might be only slightly less cautious with Bill Bray

also, sometimes you warm up guys and the bullpen coach (do we have one?) lets you know that so-and-so has nothing.

though nothing is better than less-than-zero
Hmm... Milton with nothing or a fresh arm with nothing.

M2
07-19-2006, 11:12 AM
IMO, the larger issue is does Jerry Narron understand Jerry Narron?

As has been noted, Narron pretty much goes with his "heart" all the time. He makes decisions based on feel. That's hardly unique in the managerial profession, but what covers managers when they make counterintuitive, counterrational moves is talent. Narron can do some goofy things with the offense and survive it because he's got the talent there to cover him, but the Reds don't have the talent to overcome goofy moves with the pitching staff.

It's like trying to win a NASCAR race with less horsepower than your opponents. You can't afford to take a bad line or be sloppy in the corners. You have to be more aware.

And that takes us back to Narron's self-awareness. We make light of it, but he truly believes certain veteran players know how to win. In many ways it's a positive because it means Narron trusts his players and lets them play. Yet his trust is both too limited and too often limitless. What makes a guy like Sparky Anderson or Bobby Cox a great manager is that he's able to ride a broad swath of players to success. Veterans, youngsters, journeymen, it doesn't matter. Great managers identify players and give them the confidence to play well. I wish Narron's trust extended to youth as well as veterans. Beyond that, great managers know they can only trust some players so far. You can walk out to the mound and want your pitcher to summon some sort of inner Sandy Koufax, but in situations like last night you have to be clear-headed enough to understand a guy like Eric Milton has no inner Sandy Koufax.

RFS summarized it perfectly, Narron got all he could reasonably ask out of Milton and then he asked for more. Can a feel manager put a limit on when he makes a feel decision? He needs to. The team needs him to do it. Yet Narron has to realize "Hey I need to make some changes in the way I do things."

That's a difficult task for anyone, not just a baseball manager. To date I haven't seen anything in his actions that leads me to believe he's anywhere near that kind of revelation and his comments about last night's game don't strike me as any sort of recognition that he needs to make some changes in his M.O. either.

GAC
07-19-2006, 11:22 AM
Last night is the first time I've railed on Narron.

He probably was the only guy in America watching that game who didn't know Milton was done.

I respect his honesty. The decision still stunk.

My sentiments exactly!

lollipopcurve
07-19-2006, 11:23 AM
IMO, the larger issue is does Jerry Narron understand Jerry Narron?

As has been noted, Narron pretty much goes with his "heart" all the time. He makes decisions based on feel. That's hardly unique in the managerial profession, but what covers managers when they make counterintuitive, counterrational moves is talent. Narron can do some goofy things with the offense and survive it because he's got the talent there to cover him, but the Reds don't have the talent to overcome goofy moves with the pitching staff.

It's like trying to win a NASCAR race with less horsepower than your opponents. You can't afford to take a bad line or be sloppy in the corners. You have to be more aware.

And that takes us back to Narron's self-awareness. We make light of it, but he truly believes certain veteran players know how to win. In many ways it's a positive because it means Narron trusts his players and lets them play. Yet his trust is both too limited and too often limitless. What makes a guy like Sparky Anderson or Bobby Cox a great manager is that he's able to ride a broad swath of players to success. Veterans, youngsters, journeymen, it doesn't matter. Great managers identify players and give them the confidence to play well. I wish Narron's trust extended to youth as well as veterans. Beyond that, great managers know they can only trust some players so far. You can walk out to the mound and want your pitcher to summon some sort of inner Sandy Koufax, but in situations like last night you have to be clear-headed enough to understand a guy like Eric Milton has no inner Sandy Koufax.

RFS summarized it perfectly, Narron got all he could reasonably ask out of Milton and then he asked for more. Can a feel manager put a limit on when he makes a feel decision? He needs to. The team needs him to do it. Yet Narron has to realize "Hey I need to make some changes in the way I do things."

That's a difficult task for anyone, not just a baseball manager. To date I haven't seen anything in his actions that leads me to believe he's anywhere near that kind of revelation and his comments about last night's game don't strike me as any sort of recognition that he needs to make some changes in his M.O. either.

Outstanding post.

At some point, and soon, he needs to have the same kind of disdain for a 102nd pitch beachball like the one Milton wafted up to Beltran as he does for a poor throw from a young infielder. Just because a guy has paid his dues doesn't mean the team has to pay the price.

RFS62
07-19-2006, 11:26 AM
IMO, the larger issue is does Jerry Narron understand Jerry Narron?

As has been noted, Narron pretty much goes with his "heart" all the time. He makes decisions based on feel. That's hardly unique in the managerial profession, but what covers managers when they make counterintuitive, counterrational moves is talent. Narron can do some goofy things with the offense and survive it because he's got the talent there to cover him, but the Reds don't have the talent to overcome goofy moves with the pitching staff.

It's like trying to win a NASCAR race with less horsepower than your opponents. You can't afford to take a bad line or be sloppy in the corners. You have to be more aware.

And that takes us back to Narron's self-awareness. We make light of it, but he truly believes certain veteran players know how to win. In many ways it's a positive because it means Narron trusts his players and lets them play. Yet his trust is both too limited and too often limitless. What makes a guy like Sparky Anderson or Bobby Cox a great manager is that he's able to ride a broad swath of players to success. Veterans, youngsters, journeymen, it doesn't matter. Great managers identify players and give them the confidence to play well. I wish Narron's trust extended to youth as well as veterans. Beyond that, great managers know they can only trust some players so far. You can walk out to the mound and want your pitcher to summon some sort of inner Sandy Koufax, but in situations like last night you have to be clear-headed enough to understand a guy like Eric Milton has no inner Sandy Koufax.

RFS summarized it perfectly, Narron got all he could reasonably ask out of Milton and then he asked for more. Can a feel manager put a limit on when he makes a feel decision? He needs to. The team needs him to do it. Yet Narron has to realize "Hey I need to make some changes in the way I do things."

That's a difficult task for anyone, not just a baseball manager. To date I haven't seen anything in his actions that leads me to believe he's anywhere near that kind of revelation and his comments about last night's game don't strike me as any sort of recognition that he needs to make some changes in his M.O. either.




Great post.

:beerme:

smith288
07-19-2006, 11:26 AM
You can walk out to the mound and want your pitcher to summon some sort of inner Sandy Koufax, but in situations like last night you have to be clear-headed enough to understand a guy like Eric Milton has no inner Sandy Koufax.


I would have settled for an inner Jon Leiber or something...

GAC
07-19-2006, 11:28 AM
I think this is clearly where the mistake was last night. I would hope that with the trades made, that Narron would be more apt to go to his bullpen.

And that is what really bothered me the most. Prior to the trade I can understand the guy's deep apprehension about wanting to leave starters in, and not going to this "BS" pen.

But after the trade Jerry is talking about how he really likes this bullpen lineup, and all the options it now gives him.

Options he refused to use last night because his heart said otherwise.

I wanted to rip that heart out while fuming and driving to work! :lol:

Lets hope it becomes a "tell tale heart" and the guy learns from it. ;)

And what really hurt was when we scored that 3rd run the next inning. It could have been important... but became inconsequential at that point.

westofyou
07-19-2006, 11:28 AM
Scrappy Catchers who spent their careers as bench balklast always want to see the guy on the mound complete is chores, it's the type of stuff that makes books like "The Teammates" or a nice Roger Angell piece in SI.

It's also the thing that fattens up opponents stats lines and taxes pitchers arms in peak performance moments. It's alos the thing that demands a strong pitching coach who can turn to the manager and say... Doh......

westofyou
07-19-2006, 11:32 AM
BTW Pat Darcy has a great story about Sparky that Narron should pay attention to.

When Sparky came out tothe mound during a jam once Darcy turns to him and he says, "But Sparky I feel really good." Sparky replies.. "You'll feel a lot better after you get a shower too." As he takes the ball from Pat.

redsmetz
07-19-2006, 11:42 AM
BTW Pat Darcy has a great story about Sparky that Narron should pay attention to.

When Sparky came out tothe mound during a jam once Darcy turns to him and he says, "But Sparky I feel really good." Sparky replies.. "You'll feel a lot better after you get a shower too." As he takes the ball from Pat.

I suspect Jerry Narron wishes he'd have copied Sparky there. :laugh:

flyer85
07-19-2006, 12:01 PM
Options he refused to use last night because his heart said otherwise.as my wife asked after two got on to start the inning, "why is he still in the game?" I had no answer and just shrugged.

WVRedsFan
07-19-2006, 12:35 PM
I actually respect that answer. It was honest. Doesn't mean it still wasn't a bad decision, but he gave an honest answer.

I tend to jump on the "Narron is a fool" bandwagon lately, but one thing that stops me is our record since he's been the manager. Look at our winning percentage the five years or so before he got here and look at it since he's been here-- it's a pretty big improvement.

I do think Narron manages the club well in the non-technical aspects. And I DO think that's important. I get the sense that the players like and respect him a lot more than his predecesors. I just wish he wasn't so bogged down in some of his old school philosophies.

Ed:

That's the line of thinking that keep guys like Jerry Narron in managerial jobs--where they should not be. You have to judge a manager in a lot more ways than won-loss record unfortunately.

I'll give the guy credit for being a good baseball man. I'll even give him credit for managing the clubhouse well and keeping the players happy. TCII says that he really has the respect of the players, and that's a good trait also, but when it comes to the actual in-game stuff, Narron is simply horrible. He doesn't handle his pitching staff well (how much of this is because of the absence of Vern Ruhle? If that's the case, it's a ringing indictment for Tommy Hume), he tends to not understand lineup construction at all (I believe it accounts for the recent slump of Griffey--he simply is not seeing much to hit with Aurilia behind him most of the time), and he makes poor decisions (witness last night and that's not the first time he's made a similar bad decision). What would the won-loss record be if he could correct all these "problems?" You never know, but I'm guessing that with a very experienced manager, it would be much better. Remember, Narron only has a few years at the helm. He was canned fairly quickly at Texas--his only other managerial job.

I still contend that if the Reds are going to come back to the glory of the world championship years, someone else has to be managing this team. Narron's not up to it as he has proven over and over.

Puffy
07-19-2006, 12:46 PM
I still contend that if the Reds are going to come back to the glory of the world championship years, someone else has to be managing this team. Narron's not up to it as he has proven over and over.

Narron, to me, is a good enough manager to get a team to 85-90 wins. But I just don't see him as the manager to take the 85-90 win team to 95-100 and WS contender type team.

Thats what the Pinellas, Torres, Cox', and Leylands of the world can do. Give those guys crappy talent and they'll have a crappy team - they aren't magicians - but give them above average talent and they make the teams WS ready. I see none of that from Narron, and thats why I so dislike this extension. The Reds attached their cart to a horse who, IMO, cannot lead them to their ultimate destination.

flyer85
07-19-2006, 12:53 PM
The Reds attached their cart to a horse who, IMO, cannot lead them to their ultimate destination.which is really the rub. The 2006 Reds margin for success is so small that they cannot afford to have a manager going against the data and playing hunches. Over the course of the season probability can either work for you or agianst you depending on the decisions you make. Narron seems to too often come down on the wrong side of the equation and the 2006 Reds cannot afford that.

Puffy
07-19-2006, 12:57 PM
which is really the rub. The 2006 Reds margin for success is so small that they cannot afford to have a manager going against the data and playing hunches. Over the course of the season probability can either work for you or agianst you depending on the decisions you make. Narron seems to too often come down on the wrong side of the equation and the 2006 Reds cannot afford that.

Which would also be a problem in the next step (well, the next step we as Reds fans hope they make) of a short series in the playoffs. I personally feel that any playoff series the Reds entered into, right off the bat they would be behind the eight ball because being outmanaged would be a guarantee.

RFS62
07-19-2006, 01:02 PM
Narron has the manager's equivalent of the "Good Face".

He looks like a manager, talks like a manager, has a typical manager's background. He's as old school in appearance as they come, and yet he's hitting Dunn second in the lineup, something you'd rarely see from a lockstep thinker.

Overall, I think he's gotten more out of his roster than most ever expected.

I think he shares a basic philosophy of how to play the game with Krivsky. Last night was one decision, and he stepped up and took the heat for it. I respect that.

Whether he's the right man for the job or not, he's here for a while. By all accounts he's got the players behind him.

I don't think he's going to cost us any more games than he wins with his actions. In the end, it's all about talent, the talent we put on the field.

Everybody makes mistakes, even managers. It's what you do to correct your mistakes that shows what kind of person you are.

He stepped up, so I give him credit for that. Maybe he learned something, maybe not. We'll see.

westofyou
07-19-2006, 01:04 PM
BTW Grady Little did the exact same thing with Aaron Sele the night before last, Vin noted that Sele had reached a threshold that success was a thin margin... but Little once again went with his "heart"

Ouch

flyer85
07-19-2006, 01:07 PM
BTW Grady Little did the exact same thing with Aaron Sele the night before last, Vin noted that Sele had reached a threshold that success was a thin margin... but Little once again went with his "heart"

OuchProving that some old dogs can't be taught new tricks. Grady is probably still trying to figure out why he was fired in Boston.

Spring~Fields
07-19-2006, 01:10 PM
Absolutely. So did Bob Boone. So did Dave Miley.

Setting personal appearance and names aside, I cannot tell Narron apart from Miley and Boone. The decision making and timing of those decisions look identicle to me. Have any of them ever had a winning record at the major league level?

Marc D
07-19-2006, 01:15 PM
Anyone thinking isolated incident and he'll learn from this mistake consider Harang's last start.

Bottom 6th men on 1st and 3rd, 2 out and Harang had just pitched out of back to back jams in the 5th and 6th. Instead of trying to score again by sending a PH up, Jerry sends Harang up for the automatic out and to pitch the 7th. He gets into a jam again but luckily gets out of it and the offense comes through late to win anyway.

The point is it was the same type of fundamentally bad decision to leave a starter in too long but he got lucky and it worked out. The guy's got a pattern and is too old and set in his ways to change. The extension of Narron coupled with this latest trade gives me serious concern as to just how sharp Kriv really is.

westofyou
07-19-2006, 01:19 PM
Setting personal appearance and names aside, I cannot tell Narron apart from Miley and Boone. The decision making and timing of those decisions look identicle to me. Have any of them ever had a winning record at the major league level?
Boone and Narron both played for Gene Mauch with the Angels, you can bet that Boone and Narron both take more of Mauch with them in the dugout then Danny Ozark or Billy Martin.

M2
07-19-2006, 01:22 PM
I wouldn't read too much into Narron's extension. For instance, I don't think Narron's contract will keep him around a day longer than he'd have stayed without it. If the team goes sour enough, he'll get the axe. I look at managerial extensions as future bonuses paid for current performance.

princeton
07-19-2006, 01:24 PM
Bottom 6th men on 1st and 3rd, 2 out and Harang had just pitched out of back to back jams in the 5th and 6th. Instead of trying to score again by sending a PH up, Jerry sends Harang up for the automatic out and to pitch the 7th. He gets into a jam again but luckily gets out of it and the offense comes through late to win anyway.

wins are bad

M2
07-19-2006, 01:24 PM
Boone and Narron both played for Gene Mauch with the Angels, you can bet that Boone and Narron both take more of Mauch with them in the dugout then Danny Ozark or Billy Martin.

I grew up watching Danny Ozark leave starters in long after they should have been pulled. I've got an uncle that almost suffered an aneurysm every time Randy Lerch pitched.

RFS62
07-19-2006, 01:25 PM
I wouldn't read too much into Narron's extension. For instance, I don't think Narron's contract will keep him around a day longer than he'd have stayed without it. If the team goes sour enough, he'll get the axe. I look at managerial extensions as future bonuses paid for current performance.



That's an interesting way to look at it. Especially plausible when you consider how little a guy like Narron is making compared to the ubermanagers like Sweet Lou or Dusty.

Marc D
07-19-2006, 01:27 PM
wins are bad

When they are in spite of your managers decisions, not because of them, its a concern.

VR
07-19-2006, 01:39 PM
He doesn't handle his pitching staff well (how much of this is because of the absence of Vern Ruhle? If that's the case, it's a ringing indictment for Tommy Hume),

On the contrary....take any team's pitching coach out, hand the staff (a crappy one at that) over to the bullpen coach and then expect even better performance than the previous year?

The effects of the pitching coach situation has rippled through the staff, and is a major part of the funk.

The team is without a pitching coach, period. It's in limbo. Based on the hand dealt, Tom Hume might deserve a medal of honor.

princeton
07-19-2006, 01:41 PM
When they are in spite of your managers decisions, not because of them, its a concern.

Reds are outpitching their talent level, even though there's no pitching coach.

in addition to the too high number of wins, this is still another reason to be concerned about Narron as manager. The guy is getting far too much out of this team, and it bugs me

Spring~Fields
07-19-2006, 01:46 PM
The point is it was the same type of fundamentally bad decision to leave a starter in too long but he got lucky and it worked out. The guy's got a pattern and is too old and set in his ways to change. The extension of Narron coupled with this latest trade gives me serious concern as to just how sharp Kriv really is.

Narron also calls the pitches from the dugout, those decisions have contributed to the pitching problem all along, clear back to pitching to Pujols and his walk off homer that stung so much at the time. Recently in one article I saw where he was quoted as having said that with the new bullpen help he would not have to overuse anyone, which implies to me a confession on his part that he did in the past overuse ie. Weathers and Coffey who were at times struggling.

M2
07-19-2006, 01:50 PM
Reds are outpitching their talent level, even though there's no pitching coach.

So the pitchers are just floating along as part of a free-form jazz experiment?

No, Tom Hume is the acting pitching coach.

Chip R
07-19-2006, 01:53 PM
Anyone thinking isolated incident and he'll learn from this mistake consider Harang's last start.

Bottom 6th men on 1st and 3rd, 2 out and Harang had just pitched out of back to back jams in the 5th and 6th. Instead of trying to score again by sending a PH up, Jerry sends Harang up for the automatic out and to pitch the 7th. He gets into a jam again but luckily gets out of it and the offense comes through late to win anyway.

The point is it was the same type of fundamentally bad decision to leave a starter in too long but he got lucky and it worked out. The guy's got a pattern and is too old and set in his ways to change. The extension of Narron coupled with this latest trade gives me serious concern as to just how sharp Kriv really is.

Yeah, but Harang and Milton are two different pitchers. I would certainly trust Harang more than anyone in the bullpen. Milton's another story. But your point is taken. He doesn't seem to realize the difference between a Harang or an Arroyo and an Eric Milton or Joe Mays. I understand why he did what he did and I appreciate that he admitted he screwed up - although it fell somewhat short of a full admission. The problem is, he doesn't learn. He just thinks it was just bad luck that Milton had that HR hit against him. I wouldn't doubt he does it again if faced with a similar situation.

edabbs44
07-19-2006, 01:56 PM
I'm sorry to say it, but it might be time for the dreaded Narronectemy.

registerthis
07-19-2006, 01:57 PM
I'm sorry to say it, but it might be time for the dreaded Narronectemy.

Won't happen this year.

princeton
07-19-2006, 02:05 PM
Tom Hume is the acting pitching coach.

both shorthanded, and missing the head guy. I'm bummed that they're overperforming, aren't you?

what I really miss are those days when one of the other coaches would start doing something totally different, like when Denis Menke all of a sudden steals three hitters from Sr or Foli would suddenly take over a completely new role. Narron really needs stuff like that happening.

I miss them good old days. Narron's staff is so boring.

bucksfan
07-19-2006, 02:10 PM
I was "in transition" watching this one whern the fateful decision was made. After I put my daughter to bed, I came downstairs and saw the walk to Lo Duca on our kitchen tv. I figured Milton was surely out of there. Went to the garage to work on the tractor, switched on the TV, and boom - w/in 2 secs my good mood evaporated. I'd hate to see a whole lot more of those type of decisions, but I am far from busting anyone's chops over one bad one, regardless of how bad.

Eric Milton is the latest version of Ted Power in my world. This is not a statistical comparison, mind you. It is the "who is the pitcher who always ruins it for you when you finally sit down to watch a game" similarity that strikes me. A Ted Power baseball card once went up in flames over a similar situation, when I had just had enough ;) And I liked Ted well enough, but it seemed any time I really had a chance to settle down and listen to a game, he would be pitching and he would go all Danny Graves on me. Milton has inherited the throne.

Falls City Beer
07-19-2006, 02:16 PM
A complete red herring because that is not what was posited. What Narron does is consistently ignore objective data to play a subjective hunch with certain players.

Much simply, the Reds win in spite of Narron's poor decision making, not because of it.

Players get to play with heart; I'd prefer they do so.

But I'm sorry, Jerry, managers aren't extended the same privilege; managers must play with their heads alone.

37red
07-19-2006, 02:22 PM
Narron is looking in the mirror admitting to himself HE lost the game. I'm glad he admitted that much, but he still laid most of it on Milton by justifying his mistake saying he was just trying to be nice. BULL CRAP, it was Narron's mistake. Narron didn't get burned by being nice.... Milton got burned. He should have said Milton had pitched a good game but he as manager should have put a fresh pitcher in, in that situation. He paid Miltie back for all his hard work alright, he burned his efforts with his awful managing. That wasn't a situation where you try to repay someone and help restore their confidence. Narron needs to make better decisions quickly as if they matter. He can't expect the players to do it if he doesn't.

The worst part about last night isn't the loss, it's the sapping of what little confidence Milton does have. We all know what kind of pitcher he is but he still needs all the confidence he can get regardless. A win or near win would have left Milton feeling better about himself than he did after giving up that grand slam. Just imagine how he's going to feel next time he's running out of gas but needs to put up a few more good pitches. Because of Narron he'll be thinking more about that grand slam than focusing on where to place the ball and that'll be part Narron's doing. Narron's glaring signal was the walk, Milton was so cooked, it was hot, it was the Mets and we needed a win. I only hope that Narron is capable of managing the Reds while they need every game and every pitch and move could mean a playoff postition. The players are putting out the effort to get to the playoffs. He's part of that team, they need an error sign on the score board for managers just for times like this, it would take some of the heat off of the players.

The whole team just went flat after that long ball. I don't think the team fully blamed Milton, I think they all knew he had given it all he had and Narron should have taken him out. You could really see the gas just blow out of everyone. Like everyone has pointed out the playoff managers make moves quickly and as if every game counts, because they do.

dsmith421
07-19-2006, 02:23 PM
Eric Milton is the latest version of Ted Power in my world. This is not a statistical comparison, mind you. It is the "who is the pitcher who always ruins it for you when you finally sit down to watch a game" similarity that strikes me.

For me it was Steve Parris. I went to probably 15 games during the 2000 season, and I swear Parris must have started 10 of them, including two where we specifically chose to go to the game because Parris was not starting and the Reds re-configured their rotation.

The funny thing now--Parris' 2000 season (12-17, 4.81, 1.54), an annus terribilus from my perspective, was several orders of magnitude better than Milton's 2005 (8-15, 6.77, 1.55) or 2006 (6-5, 5.48). Milton is the single worst pitcher the Reds have kept on the roster for more than half a season in my lifetime.

I don't understand why anyone would attend a game when he is pitching and at some point, I suspect the attendance figures are going to bear that out. Any manager, coaching with heart, head, or liver, should have as much confidence in Milton as the fans do: zero.

M2
07-19-2006, 02:33 PM
both shorthanded, and missing the head guy. I'm bummed that they're overperforming, aren't you?

No, I've been happy as a clam about that, but it's patently silly to act like the team's pitchers somehow are thriving despite a lack of necessary coaching. Pitching coaches come, pitching coaches go. Unless you want to argue Ruhle was a Mazzone-like svengali or a magic talisman I can't think of a reason why his absence marks any kind of significant setback.

And, while I certainly am enjoying the team's surprising ride, I'm not really all that impressed by the way it's been achieved. Unless the Reds play a lot better in the second half than they did in the first (and we'll see if bullpen really was the team's singular debilitating pain point soon enough) then I can tell you where the W-L is heading.

To quote something 15Fan said two years ago about Dave Miley, he hasn't done anything Bob Boone didn't do in 2002. In fact at this very time in 2002, Boone had the Reds at 50-45 with a better run differential. I'll add that Bob Boone got the Reds to overperform better than any manager you're ever likely to run across.

He had a putrid team in first place at various junctions in all two-plus of his seasons at the helm. The utterly inept Dave Miley got some crazy overperformance out of the 2004 Reds. So, since unsustainable overperformance has been littered across the team's recent history you'll have to excuse me for not doing cartwheels and anointing this manager as some sort of stealth mastermind.

redsmetz
07-19-2006, 02:39 PM
Anyone thinking isolated incident and he'll learn from this mistake consider Harang's last start.

Bottom 6th men on 1st and 3rd, 2 out and Harang had just pitched out of back to back jams in the 5th and 6th. Instead of trying to score again by sending a PH up, Jerry sends Harang up for the automatic out and to pitch the 7th. He gets into a jam again but luckily gets out of it and the offense comes through late to win anyway.

The point is it was the same type of fundamentally bad decision to leave a starter in too long but he got lucky and it worked out. The guy's got a pattern and is too old and set in his ways to change. The extension of Narron coupled with this latest trade gives me serious concern as to just how sharp Kriv really is.

I hate to say it, but this shows that Narron's gut was correct. Harang made it through, kept the Reds in the game for them to win. Of course, several posters have noted that Harang and Arroyo are the only pitchers on the staff they would have out there in that type situation.

princeton
07-19-2006, 02:50 PM
To quote something 15Fan said two years ago about Dave Miley, he hasn't done anything Bob Boone didn't do in 2002. In fact at this very time in 2002, Boone had the Reds at 50-45 with a better run differential. I'll add that Bob Boone got the Reds to overperform better than any manager you're ever likely to run across.

He had a putrid team in first place at various junctions in all two-plus of his seasons at the helm. The utterly inept Dave Miley got some crazy overperformance out of the 2004 Reds. So, since unsustainable overperformance has been littered across the team's recent history you'll have to excuse me for not doing cartwheels and anointing this manager as some sort of stealth mastermind.

this is a great post. I know that I'm sarcastic lately, but I'm serious-- I love this post.

and I like that the Reds didn't sit on the overperformance this year, but actually tried to fix holes. If WayneK is as good at finding new talent as he seems to think that he is, then it might even work out

and I like that Narron isn't moaning about what he lost. It's still not clear whether he'll use what he was given. I can see Jack McKeon not bothering to learn Bill Bray's name.

Chip R
07-19-2006, 02:54 PM
I can see Jack McKeon not bothering to learn Bill Bray's name.

That may be but I bet he'd use him more often than Narron would.

VR
07-19-2006, 02:58 PM
Unless you want to argue Ruhle was a Mazzone-like svengali or a magic talisman I can't think of a reason why his absence marks any kind of significant setback.


I think the setback has occurred not in Hume replacing Ruhle, but ??? replacing Hume. Hume has always been touted as cohesive bullpen leader. His role has gone from "teacher" to "director", and that's not his best role, not without a proven #2 to complement his shortfalls and workload. I think the starters have benefited greatly from Tom's change. The bullpen, not so much.

M2
07-19-2006, 03:04 PM
I think the setback has occurred not in Hume replacing Ruhle, but ??? replacing Hume. Hume has always been touted as cohesive bullpen leader. His role has gone from "teacher" to "director", and that's not his best role, not without a proven #2 to complement his shortfalls and workload. I think the starters have benefited greatly from Tom's change. The bullpen, not so much.

IMO, that stuff's largely ephemeral. The bullpen went bad because there were so many bad or over-the-hill pitchers there. The starters have done better because Harang and Arroyo drag up the average.

I've always been of the opinion that in general teams hire more chefs than they need to cook a meal, so being down one coach doesn't register much with me.

membengal
07-19-2006, 03:16 PM
The gas gauge in my car is on empty and the warning light has come on. My head says, time to fill up, but my heart says, "Damn, it sure has been a great old car, I bet I can get anoter 20 miles before I need to fill up." What to do, what to do...

princeton
07-19-2006, 03:17 PM
I've always been of the opinion that in general teams hire more chefs than they need to cook a meal.

we're sitting at the sous-chef's table out in the back alley

I understand the Reds' unwillingness to address Ruhle's position. And there are strong positives to banding together and closing ranks. I wouldn't have done it any differently.

But that doesn't mean that it's optimal. one wouldn't ordinarily expect to see overperformance.

GAC
07-19-2006, 03:21 PM
The gas gauge in my car is on empty and the warning light has come on. My head says, time to fill up, but my heart says, "Damn, it sure has been a great old car, I bet I can get anoter 20 miles before I need to fill up." What to do, what to do...

Well - at least it hasn't strewn parts all over the interstate and left your stranded in Knoxville yet. :lol:

Just kiddin' guy (couldn't resist) ;)

GAC
07-19-2006, 03:26 PM
You are either OK with his vet love or you are not.

Only with those vets such as Aurilia and Hatteberg that are performing quite admirably for us this year. ;)

smith288
07-19-2006, 03:28 PM
The gas gauge in my car is on empty and the warning light has come on. My head says, time to fill up, but my heart says, "Damn, it sure has been a great old car, I bet I can get anoter 20 miles before I need to fill up." What to do, what to do...
You left out the part that you have invested in a gas can full of gas but left it in the garage.

RFS62
07-19-2006, 03:31 PM
You left out the part that you have invested in a gas can full of gas but left it in the garage.


Not the garage, the trunk.

37red
07-19-2006, 03:33 PM
are you guys making fun of my car?

CrackerJack
07-19-2006, 03:36 PM
I'd say he's anything but chicken.

In fact, I believe his explanation completely as to his thinking.

His explanation was that he "owed Miltie a favor" and thus was too chicken to pull him out and risk personal strife with his vaunted vet pitcher, than for the good of his team.

To me that means he's a chicken. Bok Bok. Probably the same reason he feels the need to bat Aurillia 4th every night and put EE on the bench, rather than risk strife with Aurillia's ego by sitting him more often.

Narron is obsessed with wily vets and gun shy with younger players - I don't know why that isn't obvious to some people, if it isn't.

I prefer ready talent over experience in many cases in professional sports.

Narron needs to tuck his "heart" away and use his brains for once.

Last night's lesson in stupidity was just the epitome of the way he's handled situations this year, the fact he's barely gotten away with it has given him a pass with a lot of people.

It's when it starts costing your favorite team wins down the stretch that he should be called out for it.

No time for "mistakes" like that from a profesionnal manager in a playoff race in the 2nd half of the season.

This isn't a learning phase for anyone - time to win games and put personal feelings for scrappy vets aside.

Just sick of Narron's garbage - a very overrated manager. Just my opinion.

Matt700wlw
07-19-2006, 03:42 PM
I do appreciate Jerry's answer, he rolled the dice, he messed up, he admitted it.

I had no problem with Milton starting the 7th, and I would have had no problem NOT starting him in the 7th, but I would have had a quick hook on him, and looking at it now, it looks like Narron's thinking he should have too...hope to see a different decision the next time a similar situation comes up.

membengal
07-19-2006, 03:47 PM
Not the garage, the trunk.

Crackerjack.

And, GAC, I am actually fine with the Aurilia/Hatte vet obsession of Narron's, IF it were contained to a platoon at 1b. But it's not, it has finally bled over to EE sitting, and, well, you know where I am on that.

And, excellent on the demise of my car on the trip up to Cincy...gas wasn't going to save that, that car was the equivalent of a Hammond/Williams/Yan special after the engine got done falling off of it.

redsmetz
07-19-2006, 03:58 PM
His explanation was that he "owed Miltie a favor" and thus was too chicken to pull him out and risk personal strife with his vaunted vet pitcher, than for the good of his team.

What did Narron actually say?


"I just got burned a little bit with my heart there," Narron said. "Miltie has shown a lot of heart and we have a lot of guys that do. Tonight, I got burned by trying to repay it a little bit."

That's not owing someone a favor, that's choosing, albeit erroneously, to repay Milton having "shown a lot of heart." In fact, he stood up and took the blame, acknowledged his mistake. That's not chicken, that's downright rare in this day and age.

redsmetz
07-19-2006, 04:04 PM
Maybe if Jerry did this, folks would give him some slack

http://www.freaklopedia.com/Iron_ons/steve1.jpg

37red
07-19-2006, 04:08 PM
The team got burned by Narron picking the wrong moment at the wrong time to repay Milton's efforts and show his confidence. There are good times and bad times. Narron is making a cloaked excuse for his really bad mistake and crying in his own beer saying HE got burned by being Mr. Nice guy.....

Marc D
07-19-2006, 04:12 PM
The team got burned by Narron picking the wrong moment at the wrong time to repay Milton's efforts and show his confidence. There are good times and bad times. Narron is making a cloaked excuse for his really bad mistake and crying in his own beer saying HE got burned by being Mr. Nice guy.....

This was not a one time thing. Narron has shown a pattern of this. Yesterday was just the worst the team has been burned by his mistakes so far.

GullyFoyle
07-19-2006, 04:16 PM
This was not a one time thing. Narron has shown a pattern of this. Yesterday was just the worst the team has been burned by his mistakes so far.

Could not agree more. People's memories can be very short when helps their point of view.

Crosley68
07-19-2006, 04:23 PM
What he should have been thinking was....."hey, he's given us a good effort and kept it close, so lets tie it up or win it later to get him off the hook for the loss." Would that not be just as supportive?

Matt700wlw
07-19-2006, 04:25 PM
What he should have been thinking was....."hey, he's given us a good effort and kept it close, so lets tie it up or win it later to get him off the hook for the loss." Would that not be just as supportive?

Yes it would. Until the 7th, Milton had done his job...unfortunately the 7th killed him.

dsmith421
07-19-2006, 04:35 PM
What he should have been thinking was....."hey, he's given us a good effort and kept it close, so lets tie it up or win it later to get him off the hook for the loss." Would that not be just as supportive?

If Narron truly left Milton out there to protect his win-loss record than he should not only be fired, but run out of the city on a rail. We are in a pennant race, I could give a damn about Eric Milton's freaking W-L record. Do what's best for the team, or get the hell out.

Marc D
07-19-2006, 04:49 PM
Do what's best for the team, or get the hell out.

Focus that same philosophy on the current use of JR in CF and batting #3 and Narrons managing gets even more troublesome.

37red
07-19-2006, 05:03 PM
Yes Crosley, exactly

Fullboat
07-19-2006, 05:13 PM
Anybody remember the Mays game when he gave up a grandslam
to Cleveland?This is a pattern and its got me worried

Ltlabner
07-19-2006, 05:18 PM
The gas gauge in my car is on empty and the warning light has come on. My head says, time to fill up, but my heart says, "Damn, it sure has been a great old car, I bet I can get anoter 20 miles before I need to fill up." What to do, what to do...

But a car's gas tank runs to empty at a certian point that is defined and doesn't change. Ever.

Managing people isn't as clear cut. You can look at all the "objective data" you want, but that doesn't mean the "percentage play" is always going to work. It's up to the manager to know his people and when to use them despite cold numbers saying it woln't work. Sometimes these "against the grain" moves have the biggest rewards.

The key is the manager knowing his people. And Narron's mistake last night was a horrible one. No defending it at all. That was the wrong time and place to try to help Milton out. And frankly, sending him to the showers with a psedu-decent game under his belt (good for Milton) would have done far more for his "confidence" than giving up the grand salami would.

That was a horrible decision.

Mutaman
07-19-2006, 05:55 PM
Jerry, the shot was Lo Duca, HE WALKED HIM..that was the time to pull him.:angry:

Nope. Henandez predicted Milton would "intentionally/nonintentionally" walk LaDuca to pitch to Beltran who was hitting .218 against lefties. He wasn't going to give LaDuca anything to hit.

As far as I'm concerned Milton was lucky he got Reyes out. He never should have started the inning and certainly should have been pulled when Reyes came up. On the other hand we would have been better off if Reyes had gotten a base hit. That would have "only" plated one or two runs and forced narron to pull Milton. That would have avoided the grand slam.

One question. What has Milton done in the last 18 months to earn any loyalty from Narron? A dumb decision and it cost us a game we could have won agiainst the Mets.

Footnote: Beltran is no longer hitting .218 against lefties.

Mutaman
07-19-2006, 06:01 PM
BTW Pat Darcy has a great story about Sparky that Narron should pay attention to.

When Sparky came out tothe mound during a jam once Darcy turns to him and he says, "But Sparky I feel really good." Sparky replies.. "You'll feel a lot better after you get a shower too." As he takes the ball from Pat.

I knew Sparky Anderson. Jerry Narron is no Sparky Anderson.

Mutaman
07-19-2006, 06:13 PM
Option 1: You bring in Coffey to start the 7th. Milton has gone as far as he can, Coffey is getting his confidence back since he's no longer a closer, this is a good spot to see if Coofey can get back to being a reliable set up man and to start taking advantage of our new revamped bullpen.

option 2. You let Milton start the 7th but you pull him when he gives up the two hits and under no circumstances do you let him pitch to a dangerous righthanded batter like Reyes. You bring in Coffey to pitch to Reyes.

Option 3. Somehow Millton gets lucky with Reyes. And you know Beltran has problems with southpaws. But you don't gamble that Milton will get lucky again. If you don't want to bring in the kid to face Beltran, bring in Merker to pitch to him, since Merker has gotten it together lately and would probably eat Beltran alive.

Nope, Narron passes on all three logical options and gambles that Milton will get lucky twice in the same inning.But once we made the trade, we don;t have to gamble anymore. Folks, this is not Rocket Science.

redsmetz
07-19-2006, 06:51 PM
Option 1: You bring in Coffey to start the 7th. Milton has gone as far as he can, Coffey is getting his confidence back since he's no longer a closer, this is a good spot to see if Coofey can get back to being a reliable set up man and to start taking advantage of our new revamped bullpen.

option 2. You let Milton start the 7th but you pull him when he gives up the two hits and under no circumstances do you let him pitch to a dangerous righthanded batter like Reyes. You bring in Coffey to pitch to Reyes.

Option 3. Somehow Millton gets lucky with Reyes. And you know Beltran has problems with southpaws. But you don't gamble that Milton will get lucky again. If you don't want to bring in the kid to face Beltran, bring in Merker to pitch to him, since Merker has gotten it together lately and would probably eat Beltran alive.

Nope, Narron passes on all three logical options and gambles that Milton will get lucky twice in the same inning.But once we made the trade, we don;t have to gamble anymore. Folks, this is not Rocket Science.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you. I think Narron would concur with your analysis too. He acknowledged his mistake. I don't think anything short of Jerry immolating himself on Crosley Terrace will please some folks.