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View Full Version : Edwin is on pace to do what just 5 guys in the last 25 years have done at 3B....



dougdirt
07-20-2006, 01:54 AM
Edwin is currently hitting .284/.380/.482 at the age of 23.

Since 1980 just 5 3B 23 or younger have had a season of 200 at bats with a season of .280/.375/.475.

Gary Sheffield
Scott Rolen
Troy Glaus
Albert Pujols
David Wright

So we are benching him for Rich Aurilia? Edwin is a special type of hitter, and it is absolutely mind numbing what is going on in Cincinnati with him.

jmcclain19
07-20-2006, 02:02 AM
http://home.no.net/holodoc/ordinary1.jpg

But Rich Aurilia has a 12 game hit streak going?

jimbo
07-20-2006, 02:02 AM
Edwin is currently hitting .284/.380/.482 at the age of 23.

Since 1980 just 5 3B 23 or younger have had a season of 200 at bats with a season of .280/.375/.475.

Gary Sheffield
Scott Rolen
Troy Glaus
Albert Pujols
David Wright

So we are benching him for Rich Aurilia? Edwin is a special type of hitter, and it is absolutely mind numbing what is going on in Cincinnati with him.

Probably not too many players who actually qualify for that distinguishment. I don't think it's "mind numbing" at all. EE is struggling defensively and Aurilia is on a 12-game hitting streak and showed some great range at 3B tonight.

dougdirt
07-20-2006, 02:05 AM
Probably not too many players who actually qualify for that distinguishment. I don't think it's "mind numbing" at all. EE is struggling defensively and Aurilia is on a 12-game hitting streak and showed some great range at 3B tonight.

67 players had 200 at bats as a third baseman in a season as a 23 year old or younger. That statline has happened just 5 times, or roughly 7% of the guys.

Elam
07-20-2006, 02:05 AM
Shouldn't Miguel Cabrera be in there too?

dougdirt
07-20-2006, 02:07 AM
Follow up, I looked it up all time, and the list since 1950 only includes 3 more guys:
Gil McDougald
Eddie Mathews
Dick Allen.

dougdirt
07-20-2006, 02:09 AM
Shouldn't Miguel Cabrera be in there too?
Cabrera has only played 63 games at 3B in his life.... and they were over 2 seasons.
He will likely join the list after this season barring an incredible slump. Makes the point though, look at the guys on the list that Edwin is on pace to join.

Javy Pornstache
07-20-2006, 02:10 AM
Wow, sounds like a great bench player.

jmcclain19
07-20-2006, 02:11 AM
Shouldn't Miguel Cabrera be in there too?

He would for this season, but not for any previous years as in the last three years he played 3B a 64 times for combined 513 innings.

Edit - looks like Doug got to it before I did

Blue
07-20-2006, 02:11 AM
Quite an insightful post. With the way Aurilia is hitting right now, it doesn't bother me as much, though I would like to see some configuation where EE could play every day.

jimbo
07-20-2006, 02:11 AM
67 players had 200 at bats as a third baseman in a season as a 23 year old or younger. That statline has happened just 5 times, or roughly 7% of the guys.

That looks impressive then, no doubt. Thanks for doing the research.

I think that EE is the third baseman of the future of this team, but right now he needs to work on his defense and with the team contending it's going to be tough for him to get a lot of starts this season until he shows improvement. My guess is that as the season progresses, his starts will increase.

dougdirt
07-20-2006, 02:30 AM
I should add that since 1950 161 players qualified for the survey, and just 3 more players made the list a total of 6 times. So since 1950, a .280/.375/.475 line has been accomplished 11 times in 161 attempts.
Eddie Mathews did it 3 times.
Dick Allen did it twice.
McDougald, Sheffield, Rolen, Glaus, Pujols and Wright all have done it once.

Nugget
07-20-2006, 02:34 AM
But what are the fielding stats for those guys v EE.
I think the point is if your going to get comparable offense with better defense then if your going to go with that for the moment.

dougdirt
07-20-2006, 02:45 AM
But what are the fielding stats for those guys v EE.
I think the point is if your going to get comparable offense with better defense then if your going to go with that for the moment.

McDougald had 9 errors in 175 chances in 1951
Mathews had 30 errors in 495 chances in 1953. 13 errors in 379 chances in 1954. 21 errors in 441 chances in 1955.
Allen had 41 errors in 520 chances in 1964. 26 errors in 460 chances in 1965.
Sheffield had 16 errors in 414 chances in 1992.
Rolen had 14 errors in 468 chances in 1998. (had 24 errors in 1997)
Glaus had 33 errors in 492 chances in 2000.
Pujols had 10 errors in 161 chances in 2001.
Wright had 24 errors in 462 chances in 2005.

There are some really bad fielders in there....so its not like Edwin was the only young 3B with problems but could hit the crap out of the baseball.

jimbo
07-20-2006, 03:07 AM
There are some really bad fielders in there....so its not like Edwin was the only young 3B with problems but could hit the crap out of the baseball.

True, but you also have to consider the team that surrounded them. It's a lot easier to hide a bad defender amongst a good defensive team or to overlook his defensive liabilities if he has All-Star numbers at the plate.

princeton
07-20-2006, 08:07 AM
Edwin is currently hitting .284/.380/.482 at the age of 23.

it looks like the manager is getting a lot out of him, then.

I know that everyone would love to squeeze all possible numbers out of EdE, but frankly I'm pleased with his development and that the Reds are putting pressure on him to develop his all-around game yet still are getting terrific hitting. The developmental plan seems to be working, it's paying dividends now and I hope that it's going to make him a terrific player in the future.

it's cause for Reds' fans to celebrate, not complain

RANDY IN INDY
07-20-2006, 08:16 AM
it looks like the manager is getting a lot out of him, then.

I know that everyone would love to squeeze all possible numbers out of EdE, but frankly I'm pleased with his development and that the Reds are putting pressure on him to develop his all-around game yet still are getting terrific hitting. The developmental plan seems to be working, it's paying dividends now and I hope that it's going to make him a terrific player in the future.

it's cause for Reds' fans to celebrate, not complain

Now, princeton, you know that's asking a lot.;) I happen to agree with you.

MrCinatit
07-20-2006, 08:22 AM
Hmm. That Mathews guy had some good numbers at the plate, but sure did struggle at the plate.
I am sure he never went onto do anything for the rest of his career. Had a teammate at second around the same time for a while who turned out pretty fair.
The crime is: EE probably just barely has more than 200 ABs, and if this Narron madness continues, he will not have too many more.

Redsnake
07-20-2006, 08:25 AM
I say start letting EE shag fly balls during batting practice. If he does well let him play RF. Try him at 1b. Hell...give him a catchers mit and see if that works. Just get him in the lineup. Seriuously, I would like to see him learn 1B and the OF. Force the Reds to put him in the lineup. His RISP average is too good to sit on the bench.

redsfanfalcon
07-20-2006, 08:27 AM
I can't believe I am saying this...put Aurilia at SS, EE at third, and Hatte at 1B. Problem solved. I never thought I would want Aurilia at SS, but with the way he is swinging, what the heck. He has limited range, but he makes the routine play. This gets all 3 bats in the lineup that are doing well.

princeton
07-20-2006, 08:29 AM
if this Narron madness continues, he will not have too many more.

I agree that if Aurilia keeps OPSing 1.000 the way that he has in July, there will probably be more Narron madness

TRF
07-20-2006, 09:12 AM
I can't believe I am saying this...put Aurilia at SS, EE at third, and Hatte at 1B. Problem solved. I never thought I would want Aurilia at SS, but with the way he is swinging, what the heck. He has limited range, but he makes the routine play. This gets all 3 bats in the lineup that are doing well.

And kills the defense, raising pitchers ERA's.

Heath
07-20-2006, 09:31 AM
http://home.no.net/holodoc/ordinary1.jpg

But Rich Aurilia has a 12 game hit streak going?

...and...and..and...has veteran precence!!

Heath
07-20-2006, 09:32 AM
I can't believe I am saying this...put Aurilia at SS, EE at third, and Hatte at 1B. Problem solved. I never thought I would want Aurilia at SS, but with the way he is swinging, what the heck. He has limited range, but he makes the routine play. This gets all 3 bats in the lineup that are doing well.

Nope, put Phillips at SS, and Freel at 2nd, have a RA/SH Platoon at 1st & EdE at 3rd.

Dunner44
07-20-2006, 10:46 AM
If we face more left handed pitchers, we'll see more of EE hopefully. With Glavine going today we should see Edwin at 3B and Rich at 1B.

We should see that combo EVERY time we face a lefty, no doubt. One of the reasons that Hatte has been playing so well is that his number of ABs against lefties has been limited. When I looked up the numbers a few days back, Scott had only 49 ABs vs. lefties versus 205 vs righties, and was hitting for a much higher average/slugging/OBP vs. righties (.322/.498/.417 righty - .265/.429/.377 lefty) As long as Jerry continues to protect him in the platoon with RA, we'll see Scott's numbers say unseasonably high. That means that RA MUST play 1B vs. lefties, and EE should be playing 3B.

Other than that, EE's play will be at Jerry's disgression, and with RA hot right now, Jerry's going to go RA 9 times out of 10 for his soild if unspectacular defense (I saw a ball hit in the gap b/t the 3B and the SS last night that EE would have caught... oh well)

bounty37h
07-20-2006, 10:56 AM
Re: Edwin is on pace to do what just 5 guys in the last 25 years have done at 3B....


50 errors? J/K, he is a young stud who has a way to go defensively, but whata bat!

gonelong
07-20-2006, 11:19 AM
it looks like the manager is getting a lot out of him, then.

He's also leaving quite a bit of those perishable ABs to rot.


I know that everyone would love to squeeze all possible numbers out of EdE, but frankly I'm pleased with his development and that the Reds are putting pressure on him to develop his all-around game yet still are getting terrific hitting. The developmental plan seems to be working, it's paying dividends now and I hope that it's going to make him a terrific player in the future.

It's great that he is hitting, though I pretty much expected that. It's great that he is working dilligently on his defense, he needs to. IMO he is not going to make the leap to plus defender working defensive drills in pre-game. He needs to work at the speed of the game to determine how much time he has to make his throws at the MLB level. Its what every player has to learn.

After 3-4 seasons Larkin didn't ever throw a batter out by more than a step. He knew exactly how much time he had for every runner and used all of it to preserve his arm for the 1-2 times a game it was neccessary to cut it loose.

You CAN'T learn that working with Bucky Dent, it can only be learned under game conditions. The Reds are going to end up with EE making a goodly number of errors next season since they don't seem to be willing to eat the development curve this year. They'll trade him or move him to 1B. What a waste if that happens.


it's cause for Reds' fans to celebrate, not complain

Its hard to celebrate fireworks when they won't set them off. When they are in the box they just aren't all that exciting.

GL

princeton
07-20-2006, 11:27 AM
It's great that he is working dilligently on his defense, he needs to. IMO he is not going to make the leap to plus defender working defensive drills in pre-game. He needs to work at the speed of the game to determine how much time he has to make his throws at the MLB level. Its what every player has to learn.

After 3-4 seasons Larkin didn't ever throw a batter out by more than a step. He knew exactly how much time he had for every runner and used all of it to preserve his arm for the 1-2 times a game it was neccessary to cut it loose.

You CAN'T learn that working with Bucky Dent, it can only be learned under game conditions. The Reds are going to end up with EE making a goodly number of errors next season since they don't seem to be willing to eat the development curve this year. They'll trade him or move him to 1B. What a waste if that happens.


it's an interesting thought, but it's also one that you had while sitting on your butt. I wonder how many players feel that they became good defenders because they got chances in actual games, as opposed to because they got a 1000 times more chances in practice sessions?

Steve4192
07-20-2006, 11:45 AM
It's great that he is hitting, though I pretty much expected that. It's great that he is working dilligently on his defense, he needs to. IMO he is not going to make the leap to plus defender working defensive drills in pre-game. He needs to work at the speed of the game to determine how much time he has to make his throws at the MLB level.

I disagree.

Most of EE's throwing problems are because of some truly atrocious footwork/placement as he sets up to make the throw. Infield drills are where you learn the required footwork for the position and drill it into your muscle memory so it becomes second nature.

westofyou
07-20-2006, 11:48 AM
it looks like the manager is getting a lot out of him, then.

I know that everyone would love to squeeze all possible numbers out of EdE, but frankly I'm pleased with his development and that the Reds are putting pressure on him to develop his all-around game yet still are getting terrific hitting. The developmental plan seems to be working, it's paying dividends now and I hope that it's going to make him a terrific player in the future.

it's cause for Reds' fans to celebrate, not complain

You mean not every player was handed the job outright whe he showed up to the big leagues?

Color me surprised.

gonelong
07-20-2006, 01:11 PM
it's an interesting thought, but it's also one that you had while sitting on your butt. I wonder how many players feel that they became good defenders because they got chances in actual games, as opposed to because they got a 1000 times more chances in practice sessions?

Well, it didn't come out exactly how I had hoped ... obviously instruction, repetition, and practice are essential to becoming a good fielder. That is pretty much a prerequisite and I doubt anybody would question that.

That can be learned on the back diamond, however, IMO you have to learn some things at game speed and under game conditions. Some things just can't be effectively simulated on the back diamond.

GL

princeton
07-20-2006, 01:18 PM
That can be learned on the back diamond, however, IMO you have to learn some things at game speed and under game conditions. Some things just can't be effectively simulated on the back diamond.

GL


I've always been of the opinion that players learn nothing about fielding while playing in actual games, but rather show things about themselves.

gonelong
07-20-2006, 01:47 PM
I've always been of the opinion that players learn nothing about fielding while playing in actual games, but rather show things about themselves.

The experience is part of the growth cycle.

IMO you learn 2 very important things by playing in games ... one is what/how to practice, and two is learning the speed of the individual runners under game conditions. Eventually a fielder needs to figure out where they are on the field, how hard the ball was hit, and subsequently, how much time they have to set and make a throw and what to put on it.

GL

TeamBoone
07-20-2006, 05:16 PM
I say start letting EE shag fly balls during batting practice. If he does well let him play RF. Try him at 1b. Hell...give him a catchers mit and see if that works. Just get him in the lineup. Seriuously, I would like to see him learn 1B and the OF. Force the Reds to put him in the lineup. His RISP average is too good to sit on the bench.

EE is going to be a very very good third baseman and they aren't a dime a dozen. I would hate to see that talent displaced at first and the Reds don't need a RF. He should play third, period.

membengal
07-20-2006, 05:21 PM
You mean not every player was handed the job outright whe he showed up to the big leagues?

Color me surprised.

WOY, how was he handed a job? He was hotter than hell in the spring and played his way on to the field. A better question would be, how has he lost the job at this point? He's healthy, he's raking, why is he sitting to ease the crunch? Why not shuffle elsewhere to keep his bat in the line-up five to six times a week instead of two to three times a week?

Caveat Emperor
07-20-2006, 05:57 PM
WOY, how was he handed a job? He was hotter than hell in the spring and played his way on to the field. A better question would be, how has he lost the job at this point? He's healthy, he's raking, why is he sitting to ease the crunch? Why not shuffle elsewhere to keep his bat in the line-up five to six times a week instead of two to three times a week?

Because RA is raking, Hatteberg is raking, and any shuffling of the lineup would invariably weaken the Reds already shaky infield defense by either placing Aurillia at SS, where he is a statute, or taking Brandon Phillips out of the infield, which removes the only plus defender the Reds have on their infield.

membengal
07-20-2006, 05:59 PM
Fine CE, then here's the thing, I prefer EE's raking over the other two. Why? Because he is just 23 and he has potential to be even better. Hatte and Aurilia are at their limits. As between those three, I don't know why he is the odd man out.

And...Phillips to SS doesn't take Phillip's glove out of the line-up...

At some point youth has to be served, especially when it is potentially special youth that is just begging to be let loose. I don't understand the reluctance to let it roam free. And, making EE a platoon player who only gets at-bats against lefties when he is OPSing against righties at an .880 clip to Aurilia's somewhere in the .600s clip against righties doesn't make any sense at all. It just doesn't.

Caveat Emperor
07-20-2006, 06:10 PM
Fine CE, then here's the thing, I prefer EE's raking over the other two. Why? Because he is just 23 and he has potential to be even better. Hatte and Aurilia are at their limits. As between those three, I don't know why he is the odd man out.

And...Phillips to SS doesn't take Phillip's glove out of the line-up...

At some point youth has to be served, especially when it is potentially special youth that is just begging to be let loose. I don't understand the reluctance to let it roam free. And, making EE a platoon player who only gets at-bats against lefties when he is OPSing against righties at an .880 clip to Aurilia's somewhere in the .600s clip against righties doesn't make any sense at all. It just doesn't.

You could move Phillips to SS, but do you really think the best way to break a kid out of a slump at the plate is to saddle him with additional defensive responisbilities at a position he hasn't played very much of this season?

Look, don't get me wrong, I like Edwin as much as the next guy, but I really don't have a problem with some of his ABs disappearing to Rich Aurillia and Scott Hatteberg. You can say "youth must be served", but I counter and raise with "a pennant race is no place for on the job training" -- Aurillia is providing quality production and is defensively more sound. EE understands that his way to the field is defense; once he gets that down, he's going to be an everyday player for quite some time. As of this moment, though, that defensive proficency isn't there.

Until that happens, I'm cool with the platoon.

Handofdeath
07-20-2006, 06:24 PM
One cannot deny that EE has the makings of a great player but the use of AB's equal to about 60 games should not be used as proof that a player soiuld or should not take the field whether anyone else has done it often or not. If he's that good eventually he wil play. But don't get caught up in the numbers until he does it over time. I'd love to see him get about 450 AB's this year. He could hit about .290 and have an OBP around .360. Slugging about .490. That would be great for the Reds. To do that in his rookie season? We would all love that. Reds fans say hello to Joe Charboneau.

westofyou
07-20-2006, 06:25 PM
WOY, how was he handed a job?
I never said he was, but the undying need for folks to assume that he needs to end the year with 500 plus ab's and 140 games at 3rd aren't paying heed to the rate of errors he was making, the type or the fact that he's younger then 80% of the guys in MLB.

Frankly I'm more amazed that folks think the Reds should trade him to be "fair" to him and his development. EE is an asset, one the Reds know they have and one they want to leverage into an asset that overperforms for his contract. From what I can gather they have an idea how they want to handle it in the wake of his long DL stay and a hot Rich Aurilia. What's not unsusual is the handling of a young player different then the rest of the team, making matchups and trying to create successful moments in a long season.

membengal
07-20-2006, 06:29 PM
You could move Phillips to SS, but do you really think the best way to break a kid out of a slump at the plate is to saddle him with additional defensive responisbilities at a position he hasn't played very much of this season?

Look, don't get me wrong, I like Edwin as much as the next guy, but I really don't have a problem with some of his ABs disappearing to Rich Aurillia and Scott Hatteberg. You can say "youth must be served", but I counter and raise with "a pennant race is no place for on the job training" -- Aurillia is providing quality production and is defensively more sound. EE understands that his way to the field is defense; once he gets that down, he's going to be an everyday player for quite some time. As of this moment, though, that defensive proficency isn't there.

Until that happens, I'm cool with the platoon.

Well, I can think of many teams that have benefited from youth during a pennant race, so I don't worry about that as much. I think you vastly overstate EE's deficiancies at 3b if you are relying on that as your reason for being OK that his bat is mothballed against righties, but I will just assume that is a temporary insanity brought on by your last days of bar study...:)

TeamBoone
07-20-2006, 08:27 PM
Regardless of how many of you think it's fine that EE isn't playing every day at 3B, that does not justify the fact that Narron pinch hit for him with the bases loaded today after he had already gotten two hits off Glavine... GLAVINE! It was just flat out illogical to bring in a cold bat off the bench when at least one run was desperately needed at that juncture.

westofyou
07-20-2006, 08:34 PM
Regardless of how many of you think it's fine that EE isn't playing every day at 3B, that does not justify the fact that Narron pinch hit for him with the bases loaded today after he had already gotten two hits off Glavine... GLAVINE! It was just flat out illogical to bring in a cold bat off the bench when at least one run was desperately needed at that juncture.
Ummm... RH relief specialists vs RH rookie hitters.

I would have done it.

Guess I'm an illogical person.

TeamBoone
07-20-2006, 08:36 PM
Ummm... RH relief specialists vs RH rookie hitters.

I would have done it.

Guess I'm an illogical person.

I wouldn't have; rookie or not, EE has proven himself at the plate.

westofyou
07-20-2006, 08:37 PM
I wouldn't have; rookie or not, EE has proven himself at the plate.
So... has Chad Bradford proven himself against RH hitters?

Puig Your Red
07-20-2006, 08:38 PM
Should have let Edwin hit for himself and used Hatte for Phillips.

westofyou
07-20-2006, 08:40 PM
Bradford 3 years prior to this year

.328/.459/.517/.976 - 174 Abs
.214/.260/.276/.536 - 421 Abs

Stupid is stupid does, I guess.

jimbo
07-21-2006, 01:03 AM
Regardless of how many of you think it's fine that EE isn't playing every day at 3B, that does not justify the fact that Narron pinch hit for him with the bases loaded today after he had already gotten two hits off Glavine... GLAVINE! It was just flat out illogical to bring in a cold bat off the bench when at least one run was desperately needed at that juncture.

I don't think either decision would have been a bad decision. I see both sides of the argument. IMO, it was a textbook move bringing in one of your best experienced left-handed contact hitters to face a a submarine throwing right-handed reliever who is tough against righties. At the same time, EE had the hot hand and I would have liked seeing what he could have done.

Neither option was a bad managerial decision.....it just so happens this time Narron's decision didn't work out.

Clay P
07-21-2006, 09:36 AM
EE at 3rd, Phillips at SS, Aurilla at 2nd, Hatteburg at 1st, Freel at RF (5 out of 7), Denorfia at RF (2 out of 7).

goreds2
07-21-2006, 11:56 AM
I wouldn't have; rookie or not, EE has proven himself at the plate.......TIME AND TIME AGAIN. :rolleyes: