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View Full Version : Scavenging the Dodgers' corpse



Falls City Beer
07-23-2006, 01:08 AM
The Dodgers are dead--and they have some tasty middle relievers...and Brad Penny. Are there any matches for any of their arms? Any thoughts?

KronoRed
07-23-2006, 01:17 AM
Only 3.5 back, they won't give up.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2006, 01:19 AM
They should give up. They might be 6 or 7 back of the Wild Card on July 31, with several teams to leapfrog in their own division. A smart team reassesses at that point. A dumb team "goes for it."

Tommyjohn25
07-23-2006, 01:30 AM
Well one thing is for sure, they should give up playing the Cardinals...good lord.

Swampturkey
07-23-2006, 01:53 AM
Well one thing is for sure, they should give up playing the Cardinals...good lord.

My Cardinals are now 6-0 against them this season with one game left to play. I wish they were in the central. :evil:

RedsMan3203
07-23-2006, 03:06 AM
My Cardinals are now 6-0 against them this season with one game left to play. I wish they were in the central. :evil:

You Own them? :evil: :evil:

dsmith421
07-23-2006, 03:16 AM
I would love Takashi Saito, but I'm afraid his contract and the attendant difficulties of having a Japanese pitcher (i.e., interpreter, media, etc.) would kill any such deal before it even got off the ground.

Jpup
07-23-2006, 04:21 AM
go ahead and add the Astros and Brewers to the death watch.

Tommyjohn25
07-23-2006, 11:21 AM
go ahead and add the Astros and Brewers to the death watch.


I was just thinking that last night, but wait a minute!! ESPN still says the Astros are going to win the wild card, so it must be true.

PuffyPig
07-23-2006, 11:37 AM
They should give up. They might be 6 or 7 back of the Wild Card on July 31, with several teams to leapfrog in their own division. A smart team reassesses at that point. A dumb team "goes for it."

But they are only 3.5 back now. I'm guessing they will wait to see if they are indeed 6-7 games back before pulling the trigger. And teams out of it will generally only trade FA's to be. The Dodgers wouldn't have a general fire sale of young cheap talent.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2006, 01:47 PM
But they are only 3.5 back now. I'm guessing they will wait to see if they are indeed 6-7 games back before pulling the trigger. And teams out of it will generally only trade FA's to be. The Dodgers wouldn't have a general fire sale of young cheap talent.

Well, I am talking about guys like Carrara and Penny--not exactly spring chickens.

Cyclone792
07-23-2006, 01:52 PM
If ever there was a time so far this season to run off a massive winning streak, this week would be it. Win today, then roll over both Houston and Milwaukee (again) on the road over the next week, and we'll be lookin' nice.

Not only would that put us right up in the Cardinals' face, but it could force Houston or Milwaukee to possibly consider selling instead of buying or sitting still. If they're only five or six games behind us, I can't see them selling, but if they're nine games back of the wildcard following a beatdown from us, the chances of them raising the white flag altogether would be greatly increased.

I don't realistically see any of the above happening, but it's a nice thought to have anyway.

Jaycint
07-23-2006, 02:12 PM
Penny doesn't have 10/5 rights yet does he? Just wondering if eh would even accept a deal to come here if he does...

Count me in the crowd that would love to see him here provided we don't have to mortgage the whole farm to get him.

KronoRed
07-23-2006, 04:01 PM
Penny doesn't have 10/5 rights yet does he? Just wondering if eh would even accept a deal to come here if he does...

Nope.

I'd love to see Penny here, I have a feeling though the Dodgers would ask the moon for him.

StillFunkyB
07-23-2006, 10:54 PM
Nope.

I'd love to see Penny here, I have a feeling though the Dodgers would ask the moon for him.

I'm with ya on that one.

Swampturkey
07-24-2006, 12:07 AM
Cards have beaten Penny twice now so I'd love for you guys to get him since our two teams hook up a lot in these last 60 games. ;)

Jpup
07-24-2006, 01:31 AM
Cards have beaten Penny twice now so I'd love for you guys to get him since our two teams hook up a lot in these last 60 games. ;)

didn't that have something to do with the Dodgers poor hitting?

EDIT: One time he pitched very well and the other time, not so well.

July 21 6 2/3 IP 2 ER 6 H (St. Louis won 2-0)
July 16 5 IP 6 ER 10 H (St. Louis won 11-3) This was also the first start after the All-Star break for Penny.

REDREAD
07-24-2006, 11:43 AM
The Dodgers are dead--and they have some tasty middle relievers...and Brad Penny. Are there any matches for any of their arms? Any thoughts?

Nice thought. I'm not sure we have anything left on the major league level that's expendable and desirable though.

At this point though, I wouldn't mind trading the AA/A wonderkids if we got solid help like Penny. Might as well go all in at this point.

Would you guys do Encarcion for Penny? I'd probably seriously consider it. Since we are throwing all our chips into this season and EE is riding the pine, it kind of makes sense to trade him (in the short term).

My fear is that they end up treating EE like Kearns/Lopez.. They dwell a lot on his defense, put him on the Louisville shuttle, bad mouth him, and then eventually dump him for pennies on the dollar. I mean, if you aren't going to use the guy in his cheap years when he's productive, why keep him just to ride the pine?

westofyou
07-24-2006, 11:45 AM
Would you guys do Encarcion for Penny? I'd probably seriously consider it.Never, nope, forget it.


I mean, if you aren't going to use the guy in his cheap years when he's productive, why keep him just to ride the pine?

He has 5 cheap years left, plenty of time to worry about how the Reds are ruining him .

princeton
07-24-2006, 11:59 AM
Cards have beaten Penny twice now so I'd love for you guys to get him since our two teams hook up a lot in these last 60 games. ;)

famous last words, I hope

M2
07-24-2006, 12:12 PM
I imagine Cesar Izturis can be had for something relatively modest in return. That's a move the Reds could make regardless of whether the Dodgers are buying or selling.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 12:14 PM
I imagine Cesar Izturis can be had for something relatively modest in return. That's a move the Reds could make regardless of whether the Dodgers are buying or selling.He doesn't hit enough to play SS for the Reds ... wait, I forgot, the Reds have Castro and Clayton. Where do I sign up? :D

SteelSD
07-24-2006, 12:35 PM
I imagine Cesar Izturis can be had for something relatively modest in return. That's a move the Reds could make regardless of whether the Dodgers are buying or selling.

Well, it'd sure be better to get actual defense (which is what Izturis provides) rather than the perception of defense (Castro/Clayton).

That being said, if the Reds acquire Izturis, he's a stopgap through 2007 and he'll cost the Reds @5M bucks through that time. In no way should the Reds look to exercise his 2008 contract option (5.85 M). I'd try to minimize the hit for this season by trying to get LA to take back either Castro or Clayton, but it's a smallish savings there. I think the Reds should be in a position to trade dollars for real defense (finally) at this point. But if Izturis costs anything more than a couple modest prospects, I'd shy away.

M2
07-24-2006, 12:43 PM
Well, it'd sure be better to get actual defense (which is what Izturis provides) rather than the perception of defense (Castro/Clayton).

That being said, if the Reds acquire Izturis, he's a stopgap through 2007 and he'll cost the Reds @5M bucks through that time. In no way should the Reds look to exercise his 2008 contract option (5.85 M). I'd try to minimize the hit for this season by trying to get LA to take back either Castro or Clayton, but it's a smallish savings there. I think the Reds should be in a position to trade dollars for real defense (finally) at this point. But if Izturis costs anything more than a couple modest prospects, I'd shy away.

I generally agree. I wouldn't want to part with any high-end prospects for Izturis, that's for sure.

My main thought on the guy is he marks a genuine opportunity to stop talking about defense and get the real McCoy.

SteelSD
07-24-2006, 12:51 PM
I generally agree. I wouldn't want to part with any high-end prospects for Izturis, that's for sure.

My main thought on the guy is he marks a genuine opportunity to stop talking about defense and get the real McCoy.

Yep. Completely agreed.

Benihana
07-24-2006, 12:54 PM
I think Castro really does provide defense, not just perceived defense. That said I would rather go after Jonathan Broxton or a starting pitcher than another defensive SS. However as has been beaten to death on this board, I'm not sure what we have left to offer, besides maybe Joey Votto.

Patrick Bateman
07-24-2006, 01:02 PM
I think Castro really does provide defense, not just perceived defense. That said I would rather go after Jonathan Broxton or a starting pitcher than another defensive SS. However as has been beaten to death on this board, I'm not sure what we have left to offer, besides maybe Joey Votto.

Castro is very good fielding the balls he gets to, but he simply doesn't have enough range to play SS well IMO. He's about an average fielder there, while Izturis is about as good as it gets since he fields well plus he has great range.

Izturis has also been one of the majors worst hitters over the last year and a half, so unless we could get him for cheap, he wouldn't really be worth it since he's not much of an overall upgrade at this point. If he got back up to his 2004 levels of play he could prove to be quite valuable.

M2
07-24-2006, 01:09 PM
I think Castro really does provide defense, not just perceived defense.

I was stunned by how short his range was when he first arrived in Cincinnati. Sure enough, his defensive numbers have consistently supported that observation. Recently BaseballThinkFactory published some first-half defensive ratings and Castro graded out near the bottom of the AL for shortstops (nearly as bad as Felipe overall).

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/defensive_rankings_by_position_american_league/

Putting him on grass instead of turf certainly helps his game (turf eats him alive), but Castro long ago made it clear he's got substandard range.

SteelSD
07-24-2006, 01:12 PM
I think Castro really does provide defense, not just perceived defense. That said I would rather go after Jonathan Broxton or a starting pitcher than another defensive SS. However as has been beaten to death on this board, I'm not sure what we have left to offer, besides maybe Joey Votto.

Castro's Zone Rating is down to .794 this season after finishing at .813 in 2005. That's no good. The perception factor is a result of the fact that Juan Castro doesn't make many errors. He can catch pretty much anything he can get to but he can't get to much anymore.

And I'd like to take a shot at an additional starter(s) too, but picking up Izturis for a couple of a-ball kids wouldn't necessarily mean that additional arms couldn't be picked up as well. And having Izturis actually means the arms we have end up with better results than what they're seeing currently.

REDREAD
07-24-2006, 03:07 PM
Never, nope, forget it.

He has 5 cheap years left, plenty of time to worry about how the Reds are ruining him .

I didn't expect anyone to want to do that trade. It's the nature of fandom to think all your rookies will be future superstars. EdE has mountains of potential. I'm not sure I'd make the trade either. But 2-3 years ago, no one wanted to trade Kearns.

Really, nowdays, you only get players for 3 cheap years (if they produce when they are young). People claimed Lopez and Kearns were "getting too pricey" going into their second year of arb. If EdE produces, he's going to get expensive. I don't have a problem paying him, but other people seem to have a problem paying above average players.

If the Reds are truly going for it this year, it makes a lot of sense to grab Penny. The main reason I'm against trading EdE for Penny is because I'm not sure this team is a true contender now.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 03:15 PM
Well, it'd sure be better to get actual defense (which is what Izturis provides) rather than the perception of defense (Castro/Clayton). which is really the crux of the problem. The Reds have sacrificed a lot of offense for faux defense.

registerthis
07-24-2006, 03:17 PM
Izturis has also been one of the majors worst hitters over the last year and a half, so unless we could get him for cheap, he wouldn't really be worth it since he's not much of an overall upgrade at this point.

Clayton, too, has been one of the worst offensive performers in the majors. but Izturis's defense is head-and-shoulders above Clayton's, so by that metric alone izturis would be an upgrade.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 03:17 PM
Castro's Zone Rating is down to .794 this season after finishing at .813 in 2005. That's no good. The perception factor is a result of the fact that Juan Castro doesn't make many errors. He can catch pretty much anything he can get to but he can't get to much anymore.Castro does have hands of gold, the problem is he combines them with shoes of cement.

pedro
07-24-2006, 03:20 PM
which is really the crux of the problem. The Reds have sacrificed a lot of offense for faux defense.

I'm not so sure how much offense the Reds have really sacrificed. I guess it depends on whether or not you believe Lopez had a career year last year or not. I just don't think Lopez will be putting up an .838 OPS again so I'm not that upset with the loss considering how bad on defense he was.

TMBS, I think the Izturis idea is a good one as he is certainly an upgrade over Clayton.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 03:23 PM
I'm not so sure how much offense the Reds have really sacrificed. Lopez at his worst offensively is still much better than Clayton/Castro at their best.

At least Izturis would bring real defensive improvement.

pedro
07-24-2006, 03:27 PM
Lopez at his worst offensively is still much better than Clayton/Castro at their best.

At least Izturis would bring real defensive improvement.

While Clayton is not as good offensively as Lopez, he isn't nearly as bad as Castro who is one of the worst offensive players of all time.

Patrick Bateman
07-24-2006, 03:33 PM
Clayton, too, has been one of the worst offensive performers in the majors. but Izturis's defense is head-and-shoulders above Clayton's, so by that metric alone izturis would be an upgrade.

Iztuis also had an OPS of .624 last season. Clayton may be a bad hitter, but he's never been that bad. If that happens again he will probably be worth less than Clayton even when considering the fielding advantage that Izturis provides.

With that said I see Izturis as more of a .670ish OPS which combined with his fielding would make him a clear upgrade over Clayton. If the price was minimal I would be fine with his acquisition, I just wouldn't really want to give up much of any real value.

M2
07-24-2006, 03:40 PM
Iztuis also had an OPS of .624 last season. Clayton may be a bad hitter, but he's never been that bad. If that happens again he will probably be worth less than Clayton even when considering the fielding advantage that Izturis provides.

To be fair, Izturis got injured last year, though he's no sure bet to climb over .700 even when healthy.

Though neither is Clayton. He's at .663 at the moment and has a .682 mark for his career. IMO, if Izturis can keep his OB above .300 (it's .320 at the moment), then he's definitely a quantum improvement over Clayton or Castro.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 03:40 PM
If the price was minimal I would be fine with his acquisition, I just wouldn't really want to give up much of any real value.seeing as he is on the outs a bit Dodgers over missing 4 days to be with his wife who had a C-Section, one would think he owuld be cheap.

Patrick Bateman
07-24-2006, 03:51 PM
To be fair, Izturis got injured last year, though he's no sure bet to climb over .700 even when healthy.

Though neither is Clayton. He's at .663 at the moment and has a .682 mark for his career. IMO, if Izturis can keep his OB above .300 (it's .320 at the moment), then he's definitely a quantum improvement over Clayton or Castro.


Good points, M2. As long as the price is low, I would have no problem handing him the SS job over Clayton.

KronoRed
07-24-2006, 04:13 PM
Izturis for cheap playing 2nd (Phillips to SS) and batting 8th (or 9th when Arroyo is pitching) is fine with me, actual improved D is worth the loss of O.

Ravenlord
07-24-2006, 04:29 PM
Izturis for cheap playing 2nd (Phillips to SS) and batting 8th (or 9th when Arroyo is pitching) is fine with me, actual improved D is worth the loss of O.
i agree with that, but if you're going to bring in Izturis, i'd rater leave Phillips at second since Izturis has a lot more experience at short than Phillips.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 04:43 PM
i'd rather leave Phillips at second since Izturis has a lot more experience at short than Phillips. and a Gold Glove to boot.

Ravenlord
07-24-2006, 04:53 PM
and a Gold Glove to boot.
that's simply because Iztursis managed to actually hit enough to be noticed for once...that said, i think he's the third best defensive SS in the NL behind Adam Everett and Jack Wilson.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 04:55 PM
that's simply because Iztursis managed to actually hit enough to be noticed for once...that said, i think he's the third best defensive SS in the NL behind Adam Everett and Jack Wilson.may be true(I think everyone would concede Everett) but that still puts him 7 or 8 rungs up the ladder than the likes of Clayton or Castro.

Ravenlord
07-24-2006, 04:57 PM
may be true(I think everyone would concede Everett) but that still puts him 7 or 8 rungs up the ladder than the likes of Clayton or Castro.
i wouldn't even have thought Clayton and Castro on the ladder.

flyer85
07-24-2006, 04:59 PM
i wouldn't even have thought Clayton and Castro on the ladder.I was giving them the benefit of the doubt in their best case scenario.

M2
07-24-2006, 07:11 PM
that's simply because Iztursis managed to actually hit enough to be noticed for once...that said, i think he's the third best defensive SS in the NL behind Adam Everett and Jack Wilson.

Those three should form a the International Toothpick Swingers Union.

Ravenlord
07-25-2006, 02:25 AM
Those three should form a the International Toothpick Swingers Union.
at least Jack Wilson can say he doesn't have to hit .300 to get a .400+ SLG.

at least Izturis can still bases and at a high success rate.

at least Adam Everett can...can...ummm....be the spokesmen of the group?

Jpup
07-25-2006, 03:16 AM
that's simply because Iztursis managed to actually hit enough to be noticed for once...that said, i think he's the third best defensive SS in the NL behind Adam Everett and Jack Wilson.

Jack Wilson could be had for virtually nothing right now. His salary is outrageous though.

KronoRed
07-25-2006, 03:41 AM
at least Adam Everett can...can...ummm....be the spokesmen of the group?
I bet he can play the game the right way and hustle

Jpup
07-26-2006, 06:00 AM
Did I mention the Astros are dead?